Yes, this is what racing USED to be. Two great horsed, Ridge and Prove Out, running two miles, not a mile and a quarter. Stamina, endurance. Prove Out would beat Secretariat after the TC, at Belmont, in mud, and almost tire his record. He has or h ad his own records. Riva Ridge, Sec's stablemate, looked good for a while, but did not have the stamina for two miles. But he does hold the record for a mile and 3/16, that is Preakness distance. Kelso won JCGC five times at two miles, Unmatchable. Those were the days, my friend, they have ended.
Europe, Japan and Australia still have G1 races over 2 miles plus. It should have been possible for the US authorities to have ONE big dirt race over an extended distance but no, all the big races HAVE to be over 8-10 furlongs. The exception is the Belmont, which these days is a pretty sorry spectacle usually won by the last horse to fall into the stamina hole. It would be a wake-up call if the Euros and the Japanese started sending over their top mile and a half three year olds and dominating the Belmont, but if that happened they'd probably cut the distance!
Tig It seems that horses are not bred to run even a mile and a half any longer. A mile and a quarter is the standard, even down to a mile and an eighth. I would love to see these horses from Europe, Japan, and Australia race here, at the distances they are used to. I think it would be a wake up call, but after these alien horses left, our horses would go back to sleep again. Pussycats.
Somebody said these horses today are a bunch of punks next to kelso and, some of those great weight carriers back then. Hardly any handicap races anymore, which are the real deal when you give away weight to a horse and, still beat him and, they don't run 2 miles anymore. Big diffrence the longer you have to carry big weight. Kelso was and, is the greatest racehorse of all-times for many reasons. My God what a great on he was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Love the way Maple and Velasquez go for it from the second the gate opens... this kind of race riding wasn't in vogue, especially in NY back then when tracks were considered tiring and many stakes races were mile and half - 2 miles. Today the jocks in the New York colony are still many times slow out of the gate as if they're saving the horse for SOMETHING. Slowly but surely jocks like Dylan Davis, Trevor MCCarthy and especially Flavien Pratt are rushing their horses from the get-go.... about time, jocks were riding that way at Hollywood park for decades. Still many times frustrate me to see a speed horse not rushed in NYC.
Amazingly, the best horse in America during a three month stretch in late summer/early fall that year was not Secretariat or Riva Ridge, but Prove Out.
The shame of this race was not awarding Older Horse of the Year to Prove Out, who won the 2 most important races on the Fall racing calendar. The Marlboro was an invitational arranged by Philip Morris that was not on the schedule, and Prove Out was not invited. He was busy setting 1 1/16 track record at Belmont instead.
Secretariat ducked prove out like the plague. He never raced him again. Atleast kelso didn't duck beau purple till kelso beat him and, the first race kelso was giving 17 pounds to purple. So does that really count? Prove out was giving 7 pounds to secretariat and, even if sec wasn't ready for that race where the f was the 22 pound heart sec was soppose to which was an advantage cause he was got more oxegen! Secretriat wanted nothing to do with prove out. I've talked to about 100 experts in the race horse world cross country by phone. Gun bow who was kelsos' cousin out of man of war and, was kelsos' rival for a while would have given secretariat big trouble at equal weights but, kelso showed gun bow whothe real boss was. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Merely a statement of fact. Since Marlboro was not a scheduled race it was not graded and was secondary in importance to the major fall stakes of the day, which Prove Out won both decisively.
The Marlboro had one of the top fields in racing history. And Riva Ridge won the Brooklyn Handicap, Stuyvesant Handicap and the Massachusetts Handicap that year.
They were not the Woodward or JCGC, the two top races for older horses. The Marlboro Cup was an invitational, not an open event. If an open event Prove Out could easily have won that race as well, based on his superior performance compared to Secretariat, Riva Ridge, and the others.
Just appreciate that Prove Out ran some spectacular races in this two month period. His Woodward time beats every Belmont Stakes time run in history save for Secretariat's own and his Gold Cup time was the fastest two mile time with the exception of Kelso. Did the horse ever show that potential before or was he on PEDs? LOL. But a four year old rested Secretariat would have been terrifying. You cannot go through the grind of the triple crown then races like the Marlboro Cup and come out of it unscathed
Baloney, who knows. At four secretariat would have had to start giving away weight and, be in handicap races which is way harder than racing horses at equal weights. Trust me, prove out would have embarrased sec at the 2 mile jockey gold cup. Prove out even bounced off the rail and, ended up sideways still was able to straightened out and do 3:20 flat which is the 4th fastest timing ever for that after the king of them all the great kelso who crazily holds the 3 fastest timings breaking the record 2 times on 2 sloppy tracks!!!!!!!!!!!! Kelso was and is the greatest racehorse of all-times. Prove out could have been one of the best ever had he not got hurt with bad ankles when he started and, had he not had a nasty habit of logging. Once the great Allen Jerkens got him prove out beat 4 hall of famers in a span of 2 months. ! He beat cougar 2, forego who is one of the real all-time greats, he beat the hell out of riva ridge and, he beat secretariat. By the way you must not know horse racing if you say the track at woodward was not a sloppy track. That's why they put in secretariat instead of riva ridge cause riva was afraid of sloppy tracks. You better look that up guy, prove out under secretariats' conditions on that fast track at the belmont stakes right by the rail and, all might have pulled 2:23 flat. That woodward race in belmont was on a sloppy track, get it right dude. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
LOLL. Like Prove Out got humiliated at the Marlboro? All the major TC horses of the era that raced a 4 year old season did very, very well (Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid) so give me a break. Secretariat made a race of this despite not being 100 percent for weeks, just setting a WR at the Marlboro Cup two weeks earlier and not even training for a mile and a half, being a last minute addition. Now claim that Angle Light and Onion were better as well.
Yo dude, kelso set two records on two sloppy tracks, did secretariat ever set a record on a sloppy track? Hell no dude. That's the hardest thing in the world, how many freakin horses ever set a record on a sloppy track? Kelso set a record on dirt for 2 miles on a sloppy track and then just 11 days later set a record on grass for 1 mile and, a half againts some of the best horses in the world. You still wanna talk shit buddy? You can't top the great kelso. Kelso was the greatest and, it's not even close. Trust me kelso had better genes than secretariat and, then alot of horse, kelso was the great man of wars' great grandson. Secretariat lost 5 races as it was and, he was giving away much weight to other horses, imagine how kelso beat more great horses, among them champions, international champions more hall of famers than any other horse and, he was giving as much as 20 pounds to some real good horses. Kelso cursed out all the all-time greats.KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
What kind of grind was Kelso's? He broke his own World for two miles in the JCGC and eleven days later he set an American track record on the grass for a mile and a half. If Secretariat was so terrifying they would have entered him in the JCGC against Prove Out.
You better believe the great kelso would have kicked secretariats big fat ass. Prove out could have been one of the very greatest but, got hurt too much early and, had a nasty habit of logging in till Allen Jerkens straigtened him out. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
No Steve, I told you, you are wrong. The great kelsos' fastest 1 mile was in 1962 when he did 1:33 3/5 carrying 133 pounds for, at aquaduct where the turns are sharper than at belmont and, therefore harder. Amazing for a horse that just weighed 900 pounds and, was actually carrying 12 pct of his body weight! Kelso also proved he had great stamina when he won the 2 mile jockey gold 5 years in a row breaking the record two times on two sloppy tracks!!!!!!!!! Kelso also crazily holds the 3 fastest timings for that, prove out holds the 4th fastest timing for it. Imagine what timings kelso would have done on a fast track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! kelso could srint and run long distance too. He also had great tactical speed which must have come in handy at the dc interantional when he ran those 3 tight turns and, did the last quarter faster than the first! Kelso proved he was great at all distances and, not like dr. fager who never ran 1 mile and a half, never mind 2 miles and, was just a great sprinter. Kelso was a versatile horse, the most versatile horse. Get that mile straight with the great kelso .KELSOS'; BIGGEST FAN.
A good four year old can beat a great three year who is tired or otherwise not 100%. I also read that there were some cruel issues with using a burr and a painful bit with Prove Out.
Some colts get tbetter as they get older some are better as 2/3year olds? prove out was one of them, he beat the greatest in secretariat fair and square giving weight away in the Woodward. Btw he was the broodmare sire of the greatest turf filly I ve seen in miesqe.
He laughed at Secretariat beating him by 4.5 lengths after rating off Red's pace. Tweedy sent out Riva Ridge to make amends but Prove Out ran him into the ground. Prove Out was greater than any horse Tweedy ever owned including the over-rated Secretariat.
Big deal, so he didn't win. How about secretariat who after the triple crown was soopose to be unbeatable got his ass kicked? Big 22 pound heart and, all. Where was the big heart that was soppose to be an advantage cause he was getting more oxegen, when he got his butt whupped? Get real dude. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Horse's are not machines. No horse has gone through the Triple Crown campaign unscathed. Not Seattle Slew. Not Affirmed. Prove Out ran an excellent time, but we know that Secretariat could run it faster even at 90 percent. And Secretariat lost before then came back and crushed the same horses. But any argument falls to the times he ran: all three records still standing at the Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont all these decades later..
That's alot of crap. Why? Look at how that was a fast track at belmont when secretariat set the record for 1 mile and, a half on dirt and, how sec was right by the rail which is the shortest and, fastest route around any track and, look at how Torcotte sent him all out out of the gate, which they don't do too much cause most horses get hurt that way and, he shot right for the rail, then look at the competition he had, sham and, sham mysteriously broke down and, ended up last, the other two horses were bums, one was twice a prince other most people can't hardly name. Now go look at how prove out did 2:25 4/5 at at belmont on dirt, but, on a sloppy track carrying the same 126 pounds sec had at his belmont stakes. Oh and, prove out was not by the rail the whole race. What do you think prove out would have done under the same conditions secretariat had for the belmont stakes? Secretariat did 2:26 3/5 on that sloppy track at the woodward and, he did 2:24 flat on that fast track right by the rail the whole race. That's 2 secounds and, 3/5 faster, so if prove out would have done who did 2:25 4/5 on that sloppy track, maybe 2 secounds faster which would have had him at 2:23 4/5 which would have beaten secretariats. 2:24 flat. Prove out may have done 2:23 flat or, even faster if he would have been by the rail from the start just like sec. So go figure mr. mathematician man! The kentucky derby race sham hit his head hard charging out of the gate and, tore out two teeth and, was bleeding at the mouth and, still he pulled the secound fastest timing for the derby ever! What the hell might sham had done without hitting his head againts the gate and, tearing two teeth out and, bleeding at the mouth. Yah but, the secretariat fans don't mention that at all but they'll tell you how secretariat lost one of the 5 races he lost, because oif a abcess in his mouth! Hipocrisy man! Go look at kelso at the 2 mile jockey gold cup in 64' and, how he broke his own record on a sloppy frekin track then went and, broke the record on grass at 1 mile and a half on 3 tight turns which were way harder than those 2 huge sweeping turns sec had at belmont. The hell you talking bout. What other horse atlall ever broke a record on dirt then broke a record on grass in just 11 days apart? How many horse ever break a record on a sloppy track? Kelso did that two times mister! You gotta be kidding, kelso is the greatest and, it's not even close. Tell me about secretariat. Oh and, kelso looked like a freakin deer and, weighed only 900 pounds and, had a shorter stride than secretariat, the hell you talkin bout? So if you put 126 pounds on kelso and, put 126 pounds on secretariat who weighed about 1,200 and, was 16.2 hands, who the hell was the 126 pounds a bigger burden on? Lets' go pound for pound dude andf, pct of body weight. Man did you run into the wrong kelso fan here chief!!! Kelso was and, is the greatest racehorse and, it will never happen again. Want more? KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Oh and, don't forget citation won in between his triple crown! You tell me. Gun bow would have given secretariat fits at equal weights. Trust me gun bow was better than sham. He was a dcendent of the great man of war and, kelsos' cousin. Trust me kelso had better genes than secretariat, kelso was man of wars' great grandson. Did you even know that? I got more for you Einstein. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Standing records at the three biggest races in the sport. No answer. That's all. And Prove Out out running 2:23 gave me a laugh. Actually my recollection was that the track was pretty good at the Woodward. If Secretariat had been training at all for a mile and a half he might have challenged his Belmont time. As to Kelso, great horse, but he missed the Triple Crown races where a lot of greatness is determined.
bando v'real With Riva Ridge pressing the pace, Secretariat would have crushed Prove Out. The following year in the Marlborough Cup, Big Spruce easily beat Prove Out but was six Lengths behind Secretariat in the Canadian Invitational.
Because he was unprepared for that race and entered as a last minute replacement for Riva Ridge when the track came up sloppy. He st the world record in the Marlborough Cup 2 weeks prior and didn't have enough time to recover. Prove Out could have run in the Marlborough, the Man O'War, or the Canadian Invitational if Jerking was so confident he could beat Secretariat.
Prove Out was a terribly underrated horse, while Secretariat was overrated. To be a champ, you have to beat champs, and Prove Out did that. Riva Ridge faded here. Prove Out was too good. Next year, the great Forego would win. Racing was great back then.
Prior to the Woodward, Secretariat had begun light training on the turf as they were priming him in that direction for his final races. If the Gold Cup was in their plans, they would have been pointed him toward it by working on the dirt for the Woodward, and then on to the JCGC. His handlers stuck with the plan, and there's nothing wrong with that.
What are you talking about? Your comment was regarding the course of direction that Secretariat's owners took, which is what I replied to. But, since you brought it up, my personal feeling is that if Secretariat was being pointed toward the JCGC after the Marlboro Cup, the Woodward would have been a different result, and Sec would have won the JCGC easily in a time right around the world record. Of course we will never know but, when you consider that, in Secretariat's final ten races, he set a track or world record five times and missed on another by one fifth, it's an opinion that holds water.
Secretariat was easily beaten by Prove Out who later went on to beat Riva Ridge by 18 lengths in the JCGC. It is not uncommon for horses to train on both turf and dirt which is what Secretariat did and in fact Secretariat ran an incredibly great race in the Woodward he just lost to a horse who had a mostly average to mediocre career but that fall for some reason was unbeatable. Dont think for a moment the way Prove Out was running didn't factor in the decision by Secretariat owner to avoid him at all costs.
So you call a couple of leisurely gallops on the turf as proper training for a mile and a half dirt race?? That's absurd. The plan for Secretariat's final races were etched out prior to the Woodward. Mrs. Chenery had a friendship with someone at Woodbine, and both Laurin and Turcotte had Canadian roots. Man O' War raced his last race in Canada, and I believe a couple of other champion horses did as well that I can't recall right now, so this was a route that others had taken. At risk of thinking for a moment as you warned me, their decision on Secretariat's final races had nothing to do with Prove Out. Tentam, Big Spruce and Kennedy Road collectively formed just as formidable opponents as Prove Out would have.
Secretariat fan's excuses. Take Prove out, out of this race and secretariat's time and distance over the older horses would have made this run better than his Belmont stakes 3yo baby race. He got thumped by older horse's and that is normal. Stop making excuses. Funny how everyone waited for the trainer to die before the excuses started.
Prove Out showed up at the end of the year and ran a hand full of races then did nothing. I’m not impressed by that. I guess the steroids wore off and he wasn’t quite the same the following year. A hand full of races is not a career, especially when you’re running against horses who have been dancing all the dances…more so the older horses who carry the weight and have been running all year long. I would have liked to see Prove Out do more than that….like Flightline…a hand full of races and they’re done. Just not impressed by that.
*Prove Out showed up at the end of the year and ran a hand full of races then did nothing. I’m not impressed by that* Well it's all relative, isn't it? Secretariat's 9 victories in 12 starts as a 3 year old is _unimpressive_ compared with Citation's 19 wins in 20 starts. It's unclear that Secretariat was even capable of winning 19 times in two years - he never did. As an aside, Prove Out competed in 15 races in 1973 which is 3 more races than Secretariat. He didn't just "show up" at the end of the year as you claim. Also, the Woodward was Prove Out's 5th race in 5 weeks. It would be a stretch to say that he was lightly raced. In the first of those 5 races, he defeated the betting favorite, Forego, in a 7F race at Saratoga setting a _track record_ in the process. A couple of weeks later, he won at Belmont, equaling the _track record_ for 1 1/16 miles. In the Woodward and Jockey Club Gold Cup, Prove Out delivered two all-time great performances. Certainly, he was the most formidable adversary that Secretariat and Riva Ridge ever faced. He soundly defeated both of them. All told Prove Out defeated 4 hall of fame horses. He also scored a respectable win in the Grey Lag Handicap running 1 ¼ miles in 2 minutes flat. After that, Prove Out was again weakened by injuries, that had plagued most of his career and retired at age 5. No one claims Prove Out was a great horse. However, there is no doubt that he delivered some all-time great performances against great opponents.
If you take his gallop out in the Belmont Stakes and Jockey Club Gold Cups ,I have stated this before perhaps not on here, his clocking 1 5/8 mile was 2:39 and Change(Belmont Stakes) and 2:40 and Change (for the Jockey Club ) very close to Swaps World Record on a GALLOP out. Of Course he never ran at that distance and perhaps if he actually ran at 2 miles he would not run fast but you have no evidence he couldn't either.
sl7293 I think if you want to claim Easy Goer wasn't able to accomplish such feat you need to state why, just because you don't agree it doesn't mean it wasn't possible just like many of your arguments. We will never know if Easy Goer was or wasn't capable but he may have or may have not..
sl7293 Also it is not wishful thinking when Easy Goer by many like Andrew Beyer and Steven Crist have said that Easy Goer on that Belmont Race Track could have run for days and that Easy Goer perhaps more than any other horse perhaps ..relish those long stretches and turns at that track.
sl7293 yes Easy Goer ran that 2:29 time on a Dead slow track...with an example of a gallop out near Swaps World Record time ... his acceleration after the turn was pretty good and you may time for yourself his run out..there is nothing to hide and example that he COULD have ran a remarkable time at that distance of 2miles-Easy Goer was a Very fast horse from 6 furlongs to 1 1/2 mile and there is no facts or evidence that you have put forth that would reason to change the notion he wouldn't be as effect at 2 miles, on the Contrary Shug would gallop him out at 2 miles on same workout days and he would say they needed to "Simmer" him down... as a matter of Fact Shug blew him out almost 3 miles the Wednesday before the Belmont, most horses would never come back 4 days and run a 2:26 going wide throughout and still galloping out the outrider... but it is in assumption with backing from a horse that CONSISTENTLY ran remarkable times than other horses at various distances and with a body built magnificently enough to run far and to be put on the Cover of -Belmont Park : A Century of Champions....
This was the REAL, two-mile, JCGC before they cut the distance and made it just another race.
Yes, this is what racing USED to be. Two great horsed, Ridge and Prove Out, running two miles, not a mile and a quarter. Stamina, endurance. Prove Out would beat Secretariat after the TC, at Belmont, in mud, and almost tire his record. He has or h ad his own records.
Riva Ridge, Sec's stablemate, looked good for a while, but did not have the stamina for two miles. But he does hold the record for a mile and 3/16, that is Preakness distance.
Kelso won JCGC five times at two miles, Unmatchable. Those were the days, my friend, they have ended.
Europe, Japan and Australia still have G1 races over 2 miles plus. It should have been possible for the US authorities to have ONE big dirt race over an extended distance but no, all the big races HAVE to be over 8-10 furlongs. The exception is the Belmont, which these days is a pretty sorry spectacle usually won by the last horse to fall into the stamina hole.
It would be a wake-up call if the Euros and the Japanese started sending over their top mile and a half three year olds and dominating the Belmont, but if that happened they'd probably cut the distance!
Tig
It seems that horses are not bred to run even a mile and a half any longer. A mile and a quarter is the standard, even down to a mile and an eighth. I would love to see these horses from Europe, Japan, and Australia race here, at the distances they are used to. I think it would be a wake up call, but after these alien horses left, our horses would go back to sleep again. Pussycats.
The problem is you have breeders more concerned about the quick buck.
Somebody said these horses today are a bunch of punks next to kelso and, some of those great weight carriers back then. Hardly any handicap races anymore, which are the real deal when you give away weight to a horse and, still beat him and, they don't run 2 miles anymore. Big diffrence the longer you have to carry big weight. Kelso was and, is the greatest racehorse of all-times for many reasons. My God what a great on he was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Love the way Maple and Velasquez go for it from the second the gate opens... this kind of race riding wasn't in vogue, especially in NY back then when tracks were considered tiring and many stakes races were mile and half - 2 miles. Today the jocks in the New York colony are still many times slow out of the gate as if they're saving the horse for SOMETHING. Slowly but surely jocks like Dylan Davis, Trevor MCCarthy and especially Flavien Pratt are rushing their horses from the get-go.... about time, jocks were riding that way at Hollywood park for decades.
Still many times frustrate me to see a speed horse not rushed in NYC.
Amazingly, the best horse in America during a three month stretch in late summer/early fall that year was not Secretariat or Riva Ridge, but Prove Out.
Forego was coming on also
Yup. Steve Haskins' article "The Unbeatable Horse" covers this period.
The shame of this race was not awarding Older Horse of the Year to Prove Out, who won the 2 most important races on the Fall racing calendar. The Marlboro was an invitational arranged by Philip Morris that was not on the schedule, and Prove Out was not invited. He was busy setting 1 1/16 track record at Belmont instead.
Secretariat ducked prove out like the plague. He never raced him again. Atleast kelso didn't duck beau purple till kelso beat him and, the first race kelso was giving 17 pounds to purple. So does that really count? Prove out was giving 7 pounds to secretariat and, even if sec wasn't ready for that race where the f was the 22 pound heart sec was soppose to which was an advantage cause he was got more oxegen! Secretriat wanted nothing to do with prove out. I've talked to about 100 experts in the race horse world cross country by phone. Gun bow who was kelsos' cousin out of man of war and, was kelsos' rival for a while would have given secretariat big trouble at equal weights but, kelso showed gun bow whothe real boss was. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
He wasn't invited because he had not done anything yet, He was invited next year and did not run well.
Merely a statement of fact. Since Marlboro was not a scheduled race it was not graded and was secondary in importance to the major fall stakes of the day, which Prove Out won both decisively.
The Marlboro had one of the top fields in racing history. And Riva Ridge won the Brooklyn Handicap, Stuyvesant Handicap and the Massachusetts Handicap that year.
They were not the Woodward or JCGC, the two top races for older horses. The Marlboro Cup was an invitational, not an open event. If an open event Prove Out could easily have won that race as well, based on his superior performance compared to Secretariat, Riva Ridge, and the others.
Just appreciate that Prove Out ran some spectacular races in this two month period. His Woodward time beats every Belmont Stakes time run in history save for Secretariat's own and his Gold Cup time was the fastest two mile time with the exception of Kelso. Did the horse ever show that potential before or was he on PEDs? LOL. But a four year old rested Secretariat would have been terrifying. You cannot go through the grind of the triple crown then races like the Marlboro Cup and come out of it unscathed
Baloney, who knows. At four secretariat would have had to start giving away weight and, be in handicap races which is way harder than racing horses at equal weights. Trust me, prove out would have embarrased sec at the 2 mile jockey gold cup. Prove out even bounced off the rail and, ended up sideways still was able to straightened out and do 3:20 flat which is the 4th fastest timing ever for that after the king of them all the great kelso who crazily holds the 3 fastest timings breaking the record 2 times on 2 sloppy tracks!!!!!!!!!!!! Kelso was and is the greatest racehorse of all-times. Prove out could have been one of the best ever had he not got hurt with bad ankles when he started and, had he not had a nasty habit of logging. Once the great Allen Jerkens got him prove out beat 4 hall of famers in a span of 2 months. ! He beat cougar 2, forego who is one of the real all-time greats, he beat the hell out of riva ridge and, he beat secretariat. By the way you must not know horse racing if you say the track at woodward was not a sloppy track. That's why they put in secretariat instead of riva ridge cause riva was afraid of sloppy tracks. You better look that up guy, prove out under secretariats' conditions on that fast track at the belmont stakes right by the rail and, all might have pulled 2:23 flat. That woodward race in belmont was on a sloppy track, get it right dude. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
LOLL. Like Prove Out got humiliated at the Marlboro? All the major TC horses of the era that raced a 4 year old season did very, very well (Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid) so give me a break. Secretariat made a race of this despite not being 100 percent for weeks, just setting a WR at the Marlboro Cup two weeks earlier and not even training for a mile and a half, being a last minute addition. Now claim that Angle Light and Onion were better as well.
Yo dude, kelso set two records on two sloppy tracks, did secretariat ever set a record on a sloppy track? Hell no dude. That's the hardest thing in the world, how many freakin horses ever set a record on a sloppy track? Kelso set a record on dirt for 2 miles on a sloppy track and then just 11 days later set a record on grass for 1 mile and, a half againts some of the best horses in the world. You still wanna talk shit buddy? You can't top the great kelso. Kelso was the greatest and, it's not even close. Trust me kelso had better genes than secretariat and, then alot of horse, kelso was the great man of wars' great grandson. Secretariat lost 5 races as it was and, he was giving away much weight to other horses, imagine how kelso beat more great horses, among them champions, international champions more hall of famers than any other horse and, he was giving as much as 20 pounds to some real good horses. Kelso cursed out all the all-time greats.KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Kelso lost more than his share.
What kind of grind was Kelso's? He broke his own World for two miles in the JCGC and eleven days later he set an American track record on the grass for a mile and a half. If Secretariat was so terrifying they would have entered him in the JCGC against Prove Out.
Prove Out was the last great horse bred at King Ranch. Haskins wrote a fine article on Prove Out, describing him "The Unbeatable Horse".
Would have been one of the real greatest of all-times. Sad story. I have high regards for prove out. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
This was the fourth fastest time ever ran in the JCGC. The three fastest times were by Kelso.
You better believe the great kelso would have kicked secretariats big fat ass. Prove out could have been one of the very greatest but, got hurt too much early and, had a nasty habit of logging in till Allen Jerkens straigtened him out. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Kelso was the greatest of them all. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Then again, kelso was and, is the greatest for so many reasons. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
@@teddylopez747 there no horse that has ever been born that could touch Secretariat. Let me ask you this what did kelso do as a 3 year old?
I love/marvel at KELSO's PP's... just amazing, we'll not see that ever again, not in this -race 2 times a year nonsense.
Forego was as good as Secretariat by 1974.
Much better.actually..
AUTOBIOGRAPHY WON THE JOCKEY CLUB GOLD CUP IN 1972
No Steve, I told you, you are wrong. The great kelsos' fastest 1 mile was in 1962 when he did 1:33 3/5 carrying 133 pounds for, at aquaduct where the turns are sharper than at belmont and, therefore harder. Amazing for a horse that just weighed 900 pounds and, was actually carrying 12 pct of his body weight! Kelso also proved he had great stamina when he won the 2 mile jockey gold 5 years in a row breaking the record two times on two sloppy tracks!!!!!!!!! Kelso also crazily holds the 3 fastest timings for that, prove out holds the 4th fastest timing for it. Imagine what timings kelso would have done on a fast track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! kelso could srint and run long distance too. He also had great tactical speed which must have come in handy at the dc interantional when he ran those 3 tight turns and, did the last quarter faster than the first! Kelso proved he was great at all distances and, not like dr. fager who never ran 1 mile and a half, never mind 2 miles and, was just a great sprinter. Kelso was a versatile horse, the most versatile horse. Get that mile straight with the great kelso .KELSOS'; BIGGEST FAN.
Didn't kelso later on get even with carry back and, kick his butt and, showed him who was boss? I'm pretty sure kelso did. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Teddy Lopez
You’ve been exposed for the fraud that you are teddy. You’re a liar.
Nick M. I guess i Was wrong but go look a-
T
Some trainers prep horse just to beat champions when they are tired from battling in big races.
Baloney!
A good four year old can beat a great three year who is tired or otherwise not 100%. I also read that there were some cruel issues with using a burr and a painful bit with Prove Out.
Some colts get tbetter as they get older some are better as 2/3year olds? prove out was one of them, he beat the greatest in secretariat fair and square giving weight away in the Woodward. Btw he was the broodmare sire of the greatest turf filly I ve seen in miesqe.
Prove out prove he can do it, but never like my beloved big boy secretariat
He laughed at Secretariat beating him by 4.5 lengths after rating off Red's pace. Tweedy sent out Riva Ridge to make amends but Prove Out ran him into the ground. Prove Out was greater than any horse Tweedy ever owned including the over-rated Secretariat.
He beat the crap out of Secretariat.
Prove Out got annihilated at the Marlboro in 1974.
Big deal, so he didn't win. How about secretariat who after the triple crown was soopose to be unbeatable got his ass kicked? Big 22 pound heart and, all. Where was the big heart that was soppose to be an advantage cause he was getting more oxegen, when he got his butt whupped? Get real dude. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Horse's are not machines. No horse has gone through the Triple Crown campaign unscathed. Not Seattle Slew. Not Affirmed. Prove Out ran an excellent time, but we know that Secretariat could run it faster even at 90 percent. And Secretariat lost before then came back and crushed the same horses. But any argument falls to the times he ran: all three records still standing at the Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont all these decades later..
That's alot of crap. Why? Look at how that was a fast track at belmont when secretariat set the record for 1 mile and, a half on dirt and, how sec was right by the rail which is the shortest and, fastest route around any track and, look at how Torcotte sent him all out out of the gate, which they don't do too much cause most horses get hurt that way and, he shot right for the rail, then look at the competition he had, sham and, sham mysteriously broke down and, ended up last, the other two horses were bums, one was twice a prince other most people can't hardly name. Now go look at how prove out did 2:25 4/5 at at belmont on dirt, but, on a sloppy track carrying the same 126 pounds sec had at his belmont stakes. Oh and, prove out was not by the rail the whole race. What do you think prove out would have done under the same conditions secretariat had for the belmont stakes? Secretariat did 2:26 3/5 on that sloppy track at the woodward and, he did 2:24 flat on that fast track right by the rail the whole race. That's 2 secounds and, 3/5 faster, so if prove out would have done who did 2:25 4/5 on that sloppy track, maybe 2 secounds faster which would have had him at 2:23 4/5 which would have beaten secretariats. 2:24 flat. Prove out may have done 2:23 flat or, even faster if he would have been by the rail from the start just like sec. So go figure mr. mathematician man! The kentucky derby race sham hit his head hard charging out of the gate and, tore out two teeth and, was bleeding at the mouth and, still he pulled the secound fastest timing for the derby ever! What the hell might sham had done without hitting his head againts the gate and, tearing two teeth out and, bleeding at the mouth. Yah but, the secretariat fans don't mention that at all but they'll tell you how secretariat lost one of the 5 races he lost, because oif a abcess in his mouth! Hipocrisy man! Go look at kelso at the 2 mile jockey gold cup in 64' and, how he broke his own record on a sloppy frekin track then went and, broke the record on grass at 1 mile and a half on 3 tight turns which were way harder than those 2 huge sweeping turns sec had at belmont. The hell you talking bout. What other horse atlall ever broke a record on dirt then broke a record on grass in just 11 days apart? How many horse ever break a record on a sloppy track? Kelso did that two times mister! You gotta be kidding, kelso is the greatest and, it's not even close. Tell me about secretariat. Oh and, kelso looked like a freakin deer and, weighed only 900 pounds and, had a shorter stride than secretariat, the hell you talkin bout? So if you put 126 pounds on kelso and, put 126 pounds on secretariat who weighed about 1,200 and, was 16.2 hands, who the hell was the 126 pounds a bigger burden on? Lets' go pound for pound dude andf, pct of body weight. Man did you run into the wrong kelso fan here chief!!! Kelso was and, is the greatest racehorse and, it will never happen again. Want more? KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Oh and, don't forget citation won in between his triple crown! You tell me. Gun bow would have given secretariat fits at equal weights. Trust me gun bow was better than sham. He was a dcendent of the great man of war and, kelsos' cousin. Trust me kelso had better genes than secretariat, kelso was man of wars' great grandson. Did you even know that? I got more for you Einstein. KELSOS' BIGGEST FAN.
Standing records at the three biggest races in the sport. No answer. That's all. And Prove Out out running 2:23 gave me a laugh. Actually my recollection was that the track was pretty good at the Woodward. If Secretariat had been training at all for a mile and a half he might have challenged his Belmont time.
As to Kelso, great horse, but he missed the Triple Crown races where a lot of greatness is determined.
Track announcer: Dave Johnson
I wonder why Secretariat didn't show up to this race... Prove Out would have whipped him again!
bando v'real With Riva Ridge pressing the pace, Secretariat would have crushed Prove Out. The following year in the Marlborough Cup, Big Spruce easily beat Prove Out but was six Lengths behind Secretariat in the Canadian Invitational.
Why didn't he do that in the Woodward? Prove out ran the fourth fastest Gold Cup. Kelso ran the other three fastest.
Because he was unprepared for that race and entered as a last minute replacement for Riva Ridge when the track came up sloppy. He st the world record in the Marlborough Cup 2 weeks prior and didn't have enough time to recover. Prove Out could have run in the Marlborough, the Man O'War, or the Canadian Invitational if Jerking was so confident he could beat Secretariat.
If Loud was able to get close at the top of the stretch, it's hard to imagine Secretariat not blowing by easily.
Prove Out was a terribly underrated horse, while Secretariat was overrated. To be a champ, you have to beat champs, and Prove Out did that. Riva Ridge faded here. Prove Out was too good. Next year, the great Forego would win. Racing was great back then.
Secretariat's owners didn't want any part of Prove out. A somewhat average horse who ran like a super horse in the fall of 1973
Prior to the Woodward, Secretariat had begun light training on the turf as they were priming him in that direction for his final races. If the Gold Cup was in their plans, they would have been pointed him toward it by working on the dirt for the Woodward, and then on to the JCGC. His handlers stuck with the plan, and there's nothing wrong with that.
No excuses. Prove Out ran 2:25 on a muddy track. He defeated Secretariat easilly
What are you talking about? Your comment was regarding the course of direction that Secretariat's owners took, which is what I replied to. But, since you brought it up, my personal feeling is that if Secretariat was being pointed toward the JCGC after the Marlboro Cup, the Woodward would have been a different result, and Sec would have won the JCGC easily in a time right around the world record. Of course we will never know but, when you consider that, in Secretariat's final ten races, he set a track or world record five times and missed on another by one fifth, it's an opinion that holds water.
Secretariat was easily beaten by Prove Out who later went on to beat Riva Ridge by 18 lengths in the JCGC. It is not uncommon for horses to train on both turf and dirt which is what Secretariat did and in fact Secretariat ran an incredibly great race in the Woodward he just lost to a horse who had a mostly average to mediocre career but that fall for some reason was unbeatable. Dont think for a moment the way Prove Out was running didn't factor in the decision by Secretariat owner to avoid him at all costs.
So you call a couple of leisurely gallops on the turf as proper training for a mile and a half dirt race?? That's absurd. The plan for Secretariat's final races were etched out prior to the Woodward. Mrs. Chenery had a friendship with someone at Woodbine, and both Laurin and Turcotte had Canadian roots. Man O' War raced his last race in Canada, and I believe a couple of other champion horses did as well that I can't recall right now, so this was a route that others had taken. At risk of thinking for a moment as you warned me, their decision on Secretariat's final races had nothing to do with Prove Out. Tentam, Big Spruce and Kennedy Road collectively formed just as formidable opponents as Prove Out would have.
Secretariat fan's excuses. Take Prove out, out of this race and secretariat's time and distance over the older horses would have made this run better than his Belmont stakes 3yo baby race. He got thumped by older horse's and that is normal. Stop making excuses. Funny how everyone waited for the trainer to die before the excuses started.
Prove Out showed up at the end of the year and ran a hand full of races then did nothing. I’m not impressed by that. I guess the steroids wore off and he wasn’t quite the same the following year. A hand full of races is not a career, especially when you’re running against horses who have been dancing all the dances…more so the older horses who carry the weight and have been running all year long. I would have liked to see Prove Out do more than that….like Flightline…a hand full of races and they’re done. Just not impressed by that.
*Prove Out showed up at the end of the year and ran a hand full of races then did nothing. I’m not impressed by that* Well it's all relative, isn't it? Secretariat's 9 victories in 12 starts as a 3 year old is _unimpressive_ compared with Citation's 19 wins in 20 starts. It's unclear that Secretariat was even capable of winning 19 times in two years - he never did. As an aside, Prove Out competed in 15 races in 1973 which is 3 more races than Secretariat. He didn't just "show up" at the end of the year as you claim. Also, the Woodward was Prove Out's 5th race in 5 weeks. It would be a stretch to say that he was lightly raced. In the first of those 5 races, he defeated the betting favorite, Forego, in a 7F race at Saratoga setting a _track record_ in the process. A couple of weeks later, he won at Belmont, equaling the _track record_ for 1 1/16 miles. In the Woodward and Jockey Club Gold Cup, Prove Out delivered two all-time great performances. Certainly, he was the most formidable adversary that Secretariat and Riva Ridge ever faced. He soundly defeated both of them. All told Prove Out defeated 4 hall of fame horses. He also scored a respectable win in the Grey Lag Handicap running 1 ¼ miles in 2 minutes flat. After that, Prove Out was again weakened by injuries, that had plagued most of his career and retired at age 5. No one claims Prove Out was a great horse. However, there is no doubt that he delivered some all-time great performances against great opponents.
Easy Goer would have won , I Believe he was capable of breaking that World Record at 2 miles
If you take his gallop out in the Belmont Stakes and Jockey Club Gold
Cups ,I have stated this before perhaps not on here, his clocking 1 5/8
mile was 2:39 and Change(Belmont Stakes) and 2:40 and Change (for the
Jockey Club ) very close to Swaps World Record on a GALLOP out. Of
Course he never ran at that distance and perhaps if he actually ran at 2
miles he would not run fast but you have no evidence he couldn't
either.
sl7293 I think if you want to claim Easy Goer wasn't able to accomplish such feat you need to state why, just because you don't agree it doesn't mean it wasn't possible just like many of your arguments. We will never know if Easy Goer was or wasn't capable but he may have or may have not..
sl7293 Also it is not wishful thinking when Easy Goer by many like Andrew Beyer and Steven Crist have said that Easy Goer on that Belmont Race Track could have run for days and that Easy Goer perhaps more than any other horse perhaps ..relish those long stretches and turns at that track.
sl7293 so which is it?? Could it be possible or not .... you seem to be nitpicking.. for most of all these Easy Goer threads...
sl7293 yes Easy Goer ran that 2:29 time on a Dead slow track...with an example of a gallop out near Swaps World Record time ... his acceleration after the turn was pretty good and you may time for yourself his run out..there is nothing to hide and example that he COULD have ran a remarkable time at that distance of 2miles-Easy Goer was a Very fast horse from 6 furlongs to 1 1/2 mile and there is no facts or evidence that you have put forth that would reason to change the notion he wouldn't be as effect at 2 miles, on the Contrary Shug would gallop him out at 2 miles on same workout days and he would say they needed to "Simmer" him down... as a matter of Fact Shug blew him out almost 3 miles the Wednesday before the Belmont, most horses would never come back 4 days and run a 2:26 going wide throughout and still galloping out the outrider... but it is in assumption with backing from a horse that CONSISTENTLY ran remarkable times than other horses at various distances and with a body built magnificently enough to run far and to be put on the Cover of -Belmont Park : A Century of Champions....