Learning Songs On The Drums - “Bottom Up” Rather Than “Top Down”
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- Just some thoughts on the process of learning songs for drummers, based on 20+ years of teaching and working with thousands of people.
I’d also like to repeat that the benefits of actively listening to the music you’re trying to learn simply cannot be underestimated.
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i`m just starting back after 40 years and a serious accident leaving me with massive neve damage im left handed anyway and just playing for me, no band etc i personally find you the easiest tutor to follow, thank you for making it so even us old guys can learn. plus im in UK too.
Thank you for watching!
Yep totally agree ! It’s about staying engaged with the music/song so you don’t get disillusioned trying to learn the detail ,which may put you off from learning it. Good stuff Mike 😊😊
...and then adding the detail in later as you repeat. Cheers!
Feel and flow IS important. You're not contradicting your usual advice to slow right down and earn the right gradually. You've just added some balance. You are full of wisdom. The real world is full of band members who expect drummers to be on the case more immediately than strings and keyboard players.. Many secretly think drummers aren't quite proper musicians!
You are actually a genius of a drum teacher mate it took me 5+ years to realise this more often then not when you learn the simplest version or a simplified version you can build to the perfected note for note one and even add to it making it your own in the end, also it enables you to feel it more and get into the groove of the song much love man an thanks for the vids 🙂
Thanks man! Definitely not a genius - just stating out loud what I've been lucky enough to witness over the last 20 years or so of teaching thousands of people! Glad you dig and thanks for watching.
This nugget of wisdom hit me like a plate of warm, cheesy tater tots after a week of fasting. I viewed this video just after finishing an entire practice session trying to incorporate a single high hat bark into a fill that nobody but other drummers would even hear.
Ha! Thanks for watching Jay, and very glad if useful. So nailing parts is still a great thing to do and attention to detail is still massively cool. It's just that when we're first getting song parts together, first things come first! Getting a feel for a song overall comes before small details. If you've got the general stuff down, of course then get into the small details then. Cheers!
Unbelievably helpful!! As always, thank you!!
Gosh. You are a terrific communicator Mike - it’s captivating. I watched a video of yours when I went looking for an understanding of ‘backbeat’. After that one, I continued watching this next video of yours. I will have a go at your ‘bottom up’ approach with the next song I learn on guitar. It’s a bit like that old saying about eating an elephant - you have to approach it piecemeal and not in one meal. Thanks for the tip. PS I love your drum timing and feel as well. Perfect! Cheers, Antoine
I think how much you like a particular song definitely influences the outcome. A song I really enjoy playing always seems to come out way better than one I don't like all that much.
A college professor of mine ((not music) taught an approach he called DBA. With regards to writing, he said don’t fuss over a perfect first draft. You will get stuck. Just write. If you turned it in for grade it would be a D. Then build on it A “B” grade. Then add final details for an “A.” This is what you describe. D.B.A. It works in anything.
Nice, yes that's it - as always for me, the best ideas don't just apply to drumming, they're universal principles. Thanks for watching and commenting.
John Lennon gives similar advice to George Harrison for writing lyrics. Harrison gets stuck on the right word to complete a line in “Something”. Lennon says to just use any word even if nonsensical (he suggested ‘cauliflower’) for the time being. It was more important to keep the momentum going than to get hung up.
A brilliantly explained and insightful video Mike. As an engineer I know what you mean about focussing on the detail. Sometimes this can be detrimental to playing and enjoying the process of learning. Only very recently am I at that stage of playing along to a song using the skill level I have rather than the skill level I want
Very nicely said Alan! Start at your current skill level and work up - great comment 👏🏻
For someone who is so fixated to learn mostly metal ( and a ton of other) songs note for note by slowing them down and practising for weeks and months on end ( just because nothing else is that good in my life) and eventually have thought about just simplifying and improvising as well, this video speaks volumes!! I don't think you are just cool drummer, but also a decent human begin! Thank you for being so inspiring, be well!! best regards!!
Cheers!
As always, you've provided very helpful information. I'm eager to get home from travels so I can play my kit.
I'm learning drums and have a TH-cam playlist just for videos that contain info that I don't want to forget, and there are more of your videos on it than anyone else's. Thanks, mate!
I’m honoured! Thanks for watching and glad if you’ve found the channel useful.
This is what I’ve found is working best for me at the moment (a recurring shoulder injury has stopped me having lessons). I’m enjoying the freedom of using ears and feeling the rhythm of a song or musical style. Then learning some specific techniques to improve and develop the complexity. And then just having fun experimenting with any and/or all of it.
All great advice and makes the journey into a new song more fun and productive than going into minutiae from the off and getting bogged down. I apply score sheets and highlighting of subtle fill changes,and pauses as the practice on the piece moves on. A quick tip for those who are in a band and not going for original, written scores, e.g. a live version or cover of a cover etc, make sure the whole band are working on the same version, it’ll save the re-learning of what you’ve put time and effort into and allow you to command the live performance.
Good point! My experience is that musicians are often unclear when communicating which version of a song to learn, or even which artist the song is by - can think of numerous times over the years musicians in a band I've been working in have learned different versions of a song, or even two different songs with the same title by different artists! 1st rule of teaching/band leading etc: Over-communicate!
Such good advice Mike. Especially the bit about slowing it down so much it becomes impossible to move into the feel.
Oh Mike what a lightbulb moment this was for me!
I am very good at working out difficult charts and good at practising difficult things slowly and precisely but this is still such a good idea.
Thankyou so much for all your wisdom!
Excellent, yes you still need to practice the tricky bits slowly and work them up! This is just putting the emphasis on getting flowing with the tune in the beginning, THEN adding then details, not starting with all the small details and getting stuck/disheartened. Cheers!
Great advice!!
Found this so helpful. I'm an intermediate drummer, but my regular 'gig' is a worship drummer in church, often playing latest style songs sprinkled with occasional old-strike hymns. My challenge is that we don't have a regular set - every week can be a different set of songs, some of which we may not play again for 6 months. This approach makes total sense for me to use ie to focus on is the output perfectly acceptable to the band and congregation - it doesn't matter if I don't play it exactly how the original drummer did! Thank you 😊😊
Great, cheers! Glad you dig. Not to say details don't matter of course - it's just that there's definitely a hierarchy of what's important when first looking at a new song! Thanks for watching.
Excellent lesson and advice as usual, Mike. I've generally taken the more painful approach to learning songs just coz I wanted to make them sound as close to the original as possible.
But, you're right, this has led to endless hours of frustration and disillusionment, with limited, if any, enjoyment.
Today, all that changes! Thanks.
Love it, cheers Ray!
Mike, although this approach should be obvious, it took me a long time to realise this was the best method for me personally! Can't play all the 'tricky bits' all at once. Great to hear this fully explained as a sensible approach & nothing to feel awkward about. Thanks 👍
Cheers Stuart, so glad you dig. Ha, this is where things get interesting! In my experience, quite a large number of people are quite rooted in the "top down" approach, and find this prompt helpful. I can remember starting drums myself, and when simplifying/jamming tricky bits in songs - it feeling quite naughty, or like I was doing something unwholesome in some way. Like I'd be ashamed to tell my drum teacher about it! But of course it makes perfect sense as a way to get started and build some flow with a song.
Great drumming and solid advice. Some of the most fun listening or playing in a band is when we or the band playing does their own take on a song. Very satisfying to play a cover note for note too. It should be fun.....but for most of us needs a lot of work/practice to get to the fun stage.
Ah yes, cheers Glen. But just to be clear, here I'm talking about starting with a simplified version of a drum part as a way in to eventually learning the full part - rather than "doing your own thing" with a song. Although of course that can be great too. Thanks for watching!
This is what I just started to do about a month ago... Great lesson!!!
Invaluable advice! Step 1 = go through and identify the most difficult aspects. For example, back to basics, Grade 1 and Fever by The Black Keys. You will more than half the time it takes to get it right if at first you completely forget that kick drum on the 3+ in bars 6 and 8. To be honest, you'll past the grade without it. However, drumming OCD will ineveitably kick to get it all spot on and therefore only then put on the finishing touches once 90% of the song is already in the bag!
Good example! Yes I'd say there's a hierarchy of what's important when you're first looking at a new song. The details definitely matter (especially for an assessed performance), but are not at the initial level of importance when you start a tune.
Damn that was just what i was doing and getting kinda stuck in. Sure i can try and replicate the perfect song slowly and never really play music... But yeah thats probably why i jumped around from unfinished song to the next and never just play the dang thing. Thanks for the great lesson and reminder.
YES! Two pitfalls I've witnessed (and done myself) over the years: 1) Students jumping from song to song, never actually getting to the point of being able to play through any of them, and 2) (less common but still does happen) - the opposite of that, students hammering away on a song for months (or even years!) on end, getting lost in details that don't represent a good use of their time when compared to their current skill level. Thanks for watching 🙏🏻
You're awesome! Your videos are so helpful!! 👍😊
Thanks for watching 🤜🏻
Even when musicians perform live, half the stuff they do is totally different from the studio recordings when it comes to the fine details. I guess it’s more like a sketch, where the fine lines may be different, but the figure that emerges is recognizable…
As an engineer myself teaching myself drums this is great 😊. Funny thing is that this is exactly the approach that engineers and scientists approach complex problems in their field. So you should tell those students to apply what they do in their job every day 😊
Ha, nice one! No shade on scientists and engineers btw, whom I'm hugely respect. For me it's just about getting away from the mindset that the chart is a set of instructions that have to followed to the letter at the beginning of learning a song - especially when the drummer is somewhat new to playing! Cheers.
Props to that shirt for holding in those bulging biceps 💪
Good one Mike!
I thought by start from the bottom, you meant work the kick out first, then add in the snare, then the hi-hat etc. What you actually meant makes a lot more sense 😂.
Wish id seen this ages ago mike...i spent weeks on a fill on muses time is running out ... i could do the rest of the song....argggh
Cheers David! All I'd say is please don't confuse the message here - working the tricky bits up from slow is still very much part of the process! This is just about putting the emphasis on flowing through the song, getting playing and getting an overall feel for it in the first place - rather than getting bogged down with all the small details when first looking a new song. Time working the more complex bits up is still time very well spent!
Agree entirely with this , I used to piss my band off so much because id want perfect . Id pause then be trying to nail the one fill in the practice and stuff . I also think the bottom up is best way .. imagine trying to learn some sort of death core track from beginning to end ... you will be there for months just trying to nail the 32nd note double bass pattern speed let alone all the other stuff .
Nice one. Begin where you stand!
Excellent Mike. You have just answered a bunch of my questions. What do you have wrapped around your sticks?
Cheers! amzn.to/45Syqu5
Your not just a brilliant player but also an amazing teacher, may I ask you what drums you are playing?
Cheers! Glad you dig.
Drumtec Diabolo kick and toms, Roland snare and cymbals, Roland TD-11 Module. Vids below…
Kit: th-cam.com/video/EHQbhU7UFuM/w-d-xo.html
Sounds: th-cam.com/video/E6B6R0GoCrU/w-d-xo.html
How it’s recorded: th-cam.com/video/jt3hZ3tY9_A/w-d-xo.html
Mike was born with drumsticks under his armpit 😊
i.e. born ready 🤜🏻let's go
@@MikeBarnesDrums Indeed, ready! And the result shows 👌
Кроме меня русского 😮не кто не смотрит.??