Thank you so much for doing this interview! I'm the Lakewooder you mentioned might be listening, because I love engaging with and understanding different Jewish experiences and the opinions which are formed by those experiences. It's really inciteful learning about how different jews find meaning in their lives! Even though I disagree with most of the sentiments expressed here (at a basic level, I couldn't logically sync some of their views with basic on-the-ground realities that aren't in fact filled with dancing unicorns) it was still insightful. They're delightful people. I felt that the interviewees were authentically introspective in carving out a space for themselves. I loved the passion! There's way too much here for a youtube comment to begin to unravel the individual ideas expressed, so I'll just stick to what I understood was an overarching theme toward the end of the episode regarding their observance credo: Finding meaning within a system of traditional Jewish observance without concerning oneself with whether or not there's any higher truth to it. I think I fully understand how living with a secular atheistic mindset while searching for meaning within the framework of observance and community would birth this doctrine-based system, regardless how much intellectual gymnastics must be performed to obscure its illogicality. What I struggle with, however, is to understand Dovid's excitement about this philosophy serving as a blueprint toward non-orthodox Jewish practice. I just don't see how this version of dry practice would appeal to a broad audience of conservative, reform, or unaffiliated jews. (I do, however, see the appeal to those who have left orthodoxy well into adulthood but are seeking an attachment to the rituals of their upbringing.) I think it is fair to say that most people who are ripe for a renewal in religious identity and observance are seeking meaning in their daily lives and an end to an obsession with the egocentric self. They want to attach themselves spiritually to something beyond the constraints of their physical perception of reality. In fact, even in the orthodox world, across the full spectrum of frum communities, there seems to be a new rush toward renewed spirituality. People are tired of ritual-based religious practice that's uninspired and by rote, and are yearning to attach meaning to their religious practice. Finally freed from the survival mode that was synonymous with Jewish life until recently, so many are yearning for an authentic connection and relationship with G-d, up to the extent humanity is capable of perceiving. (See, for example, the recent 18Forty episode with Rabbi YY Jacobson.) Interest in chassidus, and pnimius hatorah has exploded recently, even in Lakewood. Many who have returned to orthodoxy after a hiatus that involved a full rejection of their upbringing describe a similar process in their life's journey and return: Being sensitive and spiritual by nature, they felt the need to completely abandon what they perceived as a ritualistic-based religion which felt heavy, constricting and mostly inauthentic. Years later, somewhere along their spiritual seeking, they rediscover a 'new' Judaism they never knew which places intention and connection ahead of ritual. They describe a slow process which begins with a strong raw, emotional, and spiritual relationship with G-d, and only later would they slowly reintegrate mitzvah observance, serving as a vibrant medium to their connection with G-d. In other words, they describe a permanent abandonment of the by-rote, ritualized observance of their youth, followed by a period of religious awakening, followed in turn by a gradual reintroduction to observance of those same rituals, but on an entirely different level of consciousness. Such a creed of dry ritual for the ritual's own sake as discussed in this episode, that doesn't utilize the performance of these acts as a medium for authentic connection to G-d, could not possibly appeal to this demographic. ([1:16] Jeans are, in fact, "true" in the sense that any noun can be true -- they exist. If you weren't convinced of its "truth" you probably wouldn't engage in the act of donning them. In reality, they are "true" whether or not they fit, to stick with the analogy, v'hameivin yavin... Living an halachic life without curiosity vis-a-vis its truth, its why, or its meaning is sort of like going through the hand motions of donning a pair of jeans without concerning oneself with whether or not the pair actually exists. [I'm aware that I shifted the analogy of halachic practice from the physical jeans to the act of donning them, because an inanimate object cannot logically serve as an analogy to a willed act.] Arbitrarily attaching ones own reason and meaning to an act is anyone's prerogative, but that brings us right back to a bagels and lox level of sophistication. This version of observance is more closely aligned with the postmodern obsession with the all-important self, placing ego and how it will feel at the center of all motivation, which an earlier part of the conversation touched upon.) Thanks for reading if you came this far! It's almost as long as a Reader's Write letter in the Yated. A fellow 3:00 AM'er
Oy! This sent a chill ...I feel like I'm surrounded by an atmosphere of Pre-WW2 German Jewish community atmospheres....perhaps my friend was right , Years ago ; in telling me to move to Mars... soonerthan later ?
I’m curious as to how “anti-occupation” people, especially Jews, rationalize their own places of residence. I mean, after all, they are living on lands that were taken from the native people who lived there for thousands of years. Whereas Jews living in Judea and Samaria are living on their indigenous lands.
@@outandabout4812 I think she is reversing countries to make a point. How do anti-occupation American Jews justify living in the United States on land stolen from Indians (Native Americans).
@@stephenfisher3721That's an interesting point. Instead of feeling intimidated by the Woke U S Administration, the Indiginous Jewish Nation should invite the Indiginous Indian Nations to come to Israel from the US..! Oh ...Wait ...there Is ( already ) an Indigenous Embassy in Jerusalem! Apparently, it's the first of it's kind... anywhere! Wonder ....why?😮😊
@bellaadamowicz8380 Its a real thing to keep in mind .Although , I seem to remember an impatient Elementary Teacher saying something about Manahaten Island getting bought...for a bunch of pretty beads and some of Pennsylvania also Bought (?) Or something from some Indians ... But , who's thinking about any of that in the "City of Brotherly Love "Pa., Redoubt of Woke and Marxist supporters and Constitutionally Anti-Imperialist Americans ...at least before coffee and Breakfast! ( ;and "certainly Not supporters of those Apartheid Babyburning , Rapists , Beheadeers , and Terrorist Invaders !" ;)
This was a really beautiful conversation about nuance and dialectics...and the journey of finding our places in the Jewish community while holding contradictions and staying authentic to Torah values that actually transcend politics. Shaindy and Josh are as real as they come. Thank you both for sharing your authenticity and passion for truth. A lot to reflect on
I assumed that these leftist Jewish critics of Israel came mostly from Reform backgrounds so it was interesting to hear about Joshua Leifer and Shaindy Ort who came from Conservative and Lakewood Yeshivish backgrounds. However, they were shocked when their follow non-Israeli leftists upheld Hamas as beloved, heroic freedom fighters and condemned Jewish Israelis as Nazis committing genocide.
@augjake I don't believe that. There are standards and principles, and we're not an all-inclusive club. Plus, this is above and beyond some abstract political differences. People who openly support the enemies and murderers of Jews can find their home elsewhere. Otherwise, they'll be destroying the kehila from within.
@@tuvylemberg @charles even a discussion shouldn't involve interrupting the other people and finishing what he assumes to be the rest of their sentences.
@34:40 Palestinian live under a different legal regime because they're not Israeli citizens, and they don't want to be. (Note that Israeli Arabs _are_ Israeli citizens, and Israeli law applies to them as it applies to Israeli Jews)
@@lemon8523 That's irrelevant. It's like saying the British don't want the French to be British citizens - like, okay, the French don't want to be British citizens either, so who cares
Why does Joshua Leifer dismiss Israel as the telos? Wikipedia states that Telos (Ancient Greek: τέλος, lit. 'end, purpose, goal') is a term used by philosopher Aristotle to refer to the final cause of a natural organ or entity, or of human art. Many Jews would say that the end stage of Judaism is the Messianic Age. In the prayer for the State of Israel it says: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל, רֵאשִׁית צְמִיחַת גְּאֻלָּתֵנוּ. The State of Israel is the the initial sprouting of our redemption.
@samuelgoldring9691 "Bloody Hell " would be the Retort of some Pirates ....But , here I state unswerving Honor and Respect for Chief Rabbi and Captain Admiral Samuel Palache (o"h) who took his Congregation from Amsterdam and Sailed his Fleet of Ships (under the SixPointed Star "of Morocco and his own Jewish penant against the Spanish ( and Torquamoda 's (y"sh) Spanish Inquisition ) to the succour of their Brothers and Sisters and the confusion of our Enemies . ..and to our other Sephardic Jewish Men and Women of the Brotherhood of the Coast ( A"H)....,[ what would They say to the dastardly two-faced Ameri-Diplomacy?] A prayerful "YO-HO " to Almighty G-d and pins and Cutlasses to Hand!
these kids are so close... but so far away. I hope they grow out of their rebellious adolescence quickly enough, otherwise they're just consigning their children to keep fighting this war.
Insufferable - I had to look that up. What American uses that word? Are you British? Why do you say they are insufferable still? How do you even know them? Definition of insufferable: having or showing unbearable arrogance or conceit.
@stephenfisher3721 perhaps you should buy a dictionary. Those two woke, arrogant egomaniacs are still talking about the evil Israel ruling over the poor "palestinians" and "massacring" them in Gaza. They did not do the teshuva or had a sincere change of heart. IMO, the reason they did this interview was only to promote the book.
@stephenfisher3721 1. Buy a dictionary 2. I thought that conversation would feature people who had done the teshuva and became good Jews. Which isn't the case here. 3. I find the woke leftists to be tedious, shallow, boring, and egomaniacal - insufferable.
Thank you so much for doing this interview!
I'm the Lakewooder you mentioned might be listening, because I love engaging with and understanding different Jewish experiences and the opinions which are formed by those experiences.
It's really inciteful learning about how different jews find meaning in their lives! Even though I disagree with most of the sentiments expressed here (at a basic level, I couldn't logically sync some of their views with basic on-the-ground realities that aren't in fact filled with dancing unicorns) it was still insightful. They're delightful people. I felt that the interviewees were authentically introspective in carving out a space for themselves. I loved the passion!
There's way too much here for a youtube comment to begin to unravel the individual ideas expressed, so I'll just stick to what I understood was an overarching theme toward the end of the episode regarding their observance credo: Finding meaning within a system of traditional Jewish observance without concerning oneself with whether or not there's any higher truth to it.
I think I fully understand how living with a secular atheistic mindset while searching for meaning within the framework of observance and community would birth this doctrine-based system, regardless how much intellectual gymnastics must be performed to obscure its illogicality. What I struggle with, however, is to understand Dovid's excitement about this philosophy serving as a blueprint toward non-orthodox Jewish practice. I just don't see how this version of dry practice would appeal to a broad audience of conservative, reform, or unaffiliated jews. (I do, however, see the appeal to those who have left orthodoxy well into adulthood but are seeking an attachment to the rituals of their upbringing.)
I think it is fair to say that most people who are ripe for a renewal in religious identity and observance are seeking meaning in their daily lives and an end to an obsession with the egocentric self. They want to attach themselves spiritually to something beyond the constraints of their physical perception of reality.
In fact, even in the orthodox world, across the full spectrum of frum communities, there seems to be a new rush toward renewed spirituality. People are tired of ritual-based religious practice that's uninspired and by rote, and are yearning to attach meaning to their religious practice. Finally freed from the survival mode that was synonymous with Jewish life until recently, so many are yearning for an authentic connection and relationship with G-d, up to the extent humanity is capable of perceiving. (See, for example, the recent 18Forty episode with Rabbi YY Jacobson.) Interest in chassidus, and pnimius hatorah has exploded recently, even in Lakewood.
Many who have returned to orthodoxy after a hiatus that involved a full rejection of their upbringing describe a similar process in their life's journey and return: Being sensitive and spiritual by nature, they felt the need to completely abandon what they perceived as a ritualistic-based religion which felt heavy, constricting and mostly inauthentic. Years later, somewhere along their spiritual seeking, they rediscover a 'new' Judaism they never knew which places intention and connection ahead of ritual. They describe a slow process which begins with a strong raw, emotional, and spiritual relationship with G-d, and only later would they slowly reintegrate mitzvah observance, serving as a vibrant medium to their connection with G-d.
In other words, they describe a permanent abandonment of the by-rote, ritualized observance of their youth, followed by a period of religious awakening, followed in turn by a gradual reintroduction to observance of those same rituals, but on an entirely different level of consciousness.
Such a creed of dry ritual for the ritual's own sake as discussed in this episode, that doesn't utilize the performance of these acts as a medium for authentic connection to G-d, could not possibly appeal to this demographic.
([1:16] Jeans are, in fact, "true" in the sense that any noun can be true -- they exist. If you weren't convinced of its "truth" you probably wouldn't engage in the act of donning them. In reality, they are "true" whether or not they fit, to stick with the analogy, v'hameivin yavin...
Living an halachic life without curiosity vis-a-vis its truth, its why, or its meaning is sort of like going through the hand motions of donning a pair of jeans without concerning oneself with whether or not the pair actually exists. [I'm aware that I shifted the analogy of halachic practice from the physical jeans to the act of donning them, because an inanimate object cannot logically serve as an analogy to a willed act.] Arbitrarily attaching ones own reason and meaning to an act is anyone's prerogative, but that brings us right back to a bagels and lox level of sophistication. This version of observance is more closely aligned with the postmodern obsession with the all-important self, placing ego and how it will feel at the center of all motivation, which an earlier part of the conversation touched upon.)
Thanks for reading if you came this far! It's almost as long as a Reader's Write letter in the Yated.
A fellow 3:00 AM'er
Well done
@@mosytube Thanks!
Oy! This sent a chill ...I feel like I'm surrounded by an atmosphere of Pre-WW2 German Jewish community atmospheres....perhaps my friend was right , Years ago ; in telling me to move to Mars... soonerthan later ?
@@yperkin1016 I'm very interested in learning about what it was about my comment that triggered such a response for you. Please enlighten me.
I’m curious as to how “anti-occupation” people, especially Jews, rationalize their own places of residence. I mean, after all, they are living on lands that were taken from the native people who lived there for thousands of years. Whereas Jews living in Judea and Samaria are living on their indigenous lands.
Jewish communities existed in this land over 2000 years so not sure where you get other people land.
@@outandabout4812
I think she is reversing countries to make a point.
How do anti-occupation American Jews justify living in the United States on land stolen from Indians (Native Americans).
@@stephenfisher3721That's an interesting point.
Instead of feeling intimidated by the Woke U S Administration, the Indiginous Jewish Nation should invite the Indiginous Indian Nations to come to Israel from the US..!
Oh ...Wait ...there Is ( already ) an Indigenous Embassy in Jerusalem! Apparently, it's the first of it's kind... anywhere! Wonder ....why?😮😊
@bellaadamowicz8380 Its a real thing to keep in mind .Although , I seem to remember an impatient Elementary Teacher saying something about Manahaten Island getting bought...for a bunch of pretty beads and some of Pennsylvania also Bought (?) Or something from some Indians ...
But , who's thinking about any of that in the "City of Brotherly Love "Pa., Redoubt of Woke and Marxist supporters and Constitutionally Anti-Imperialist Americans ...at least before coffee and Breakfast! ( ;and "certainly Not supporters of those Apartheid Babyburning , Rapists , Beheadeers , and Terrorist Invaders !" ;)
This might be the most underrated interview on the Internet right now.
Great job!
This is definitely my new favorite TH-cam channel
This was a really beautiful conversation about nuance and dialectics...and the journey of finding our places in the Jewish community while holding contradictions and staying authentic to Torah values that actually transcend politics. Shaindy and Josh are as real as they come. Thank you both for sharing your authenticity and passion for truth. A lot to reflect on
I assumed that these leftist Jewish critics of Israel came mostly from Reform backgrounds so it was interesting to hear about Joshua Leifer and Shaindy Ort who came from Conservative and Lakewood Yeshivish backgrounds.
However, they were shocked when their follow non-Israeli leftists upheld Hamas as beloved, heroic freedom fighters and condemned Jewish Israelis as Nazis committing genocide.
Hamas and Netanyahu's government are full of war criminals. If you believe in international law then this is unquestionable.
Thank you for making this a video episode!
I'm shocked at the anti-Israel turn this interview took. Almost shedding tears. Extremely disappointed.
20 minutes in, on the dot. As if it was set up.
Let the guests answer the questions
This is really beautiful!
Thank you. What a fascinating conversation. Josh, curious whose class at PU you read Alistair Macintyre in?
Very important conversation. I enjoyed it.
@@augjake what was so important about it?
@@myx0mop I think it’s important to discuss political differences, and how people of different backgrounds can find a home in traditional Judaism.
@augjake I don't believe that. There are standards and principles, and we're not an all-inclusive club. Plus, this is above and beyond some abstract political differences. People who openly support the enemies and murderers of Jews can find their home elsewhere. Otherwise, they'll be destroying the kehila from within.
The interviewer needs to learn how to let people answer on their own without doing it for them. Great interview though.
it is more of a discussion than an interview.
@@tuvylemberg @charles even a discussion shouldn't involve interrupting the other people and finishing what he assumes to be the rest of their sentences.
He is so difficult to listen to. Insufferable really.
He should also learn to communicate in a more articulate manner. Saying "like" fourteen times in a three-word sentence also makes it unbearable.
Who is the interviewer. I want more
@34:40 Palestinian live under a different legal regime because they're not Israeli citizens, and they don't want to be. (Note that Israeli Arabs _are_ Israeli citizens, and Israeli law applies to them as it applies to Israeli Jews)
Let's not pretend that Israelis want them to be Israeli citizens also
@@lemon8523 That's irrelevant. It's like saying the British don't want the French to be British citizens - like, okay, the French don't want to be British citizens either, so who cares
Can anyone understand a word she says? I've never known anyone speak so quickly.
I listen on 1.2 and it sounds slow to me.
I had to slow down the video speed to understand her.
Hope to listen a similar conversation with Shaul Magid
Who is the interviewer /moderator
Why does Joshua Leifer dismiss Israel as the telos?
Wikipedia states that Telos (Ancient Greek: τέλος, lit. 'end, purpose, goal') is a term used by philosopher Aristotle to refer to the final cause of a natural organ or entity, or of human art.
Many Jews would say that the end stage of Judaism is the Messianic Age.
In the prayer for the State of Israel it says:
מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל,
רֵאשִׁית צְמִיחַת גְּאֻלָּתֵנוּ.
The State of Israel is the the initial sprouting of our redemption.
@samuelgoldring9691
"Bloody Hell " would be the Retort of some Pirates ....But , here I state unswerving Honor and Respect for Chief Rabbi and Captain Admiral Samuel Palache (o"h) who took his Congregation from Amsterdam and Sailed his Fleet of Ships (under the SixPointed Star "of Morocco and his own Jewish penant against the Spanish ( and Torquamoda 's (y"sh) Spanish Inquisition ) to the succour of their Brothers and Sisters and the confusion of our Enemies . ..and to our other Sephardic Jewish Men and Women of the Brotherhood of the Coast ( A"H)....,[ what would They say to the dastardly two-faced Ameri-Diplomacy?] A prayerful "YO-HO " to Almighty G-d and pins and Cutlasses to Hand!
Yes you definitely did do that Josh. Be act on your regret
Joshua just made aliya and moved to israel
Sad where the burning desire to feel righteous can take you
1:11:00
Talking too fast 😮
Agree! I had to slow down the video speed.
And I remember like and I think like and it felt like and you know.
Shaindy Palestinians don't want 2 states.
Maybe learn Arabic first maidele
This guy is deleting comments that are critical. Unsubscribing!!
these kids are so close... but so far away. I hope they grow out of their rebellious adolescence quickly enough, otherwise they're just consigning their children to keep fighting this war.
Jones Laura White Kenneth Hernandez Anna
These two are insufferable. Still!!
Insufferable - I had to look that up.
What American uses that word?
Are you British?
Why do you say they are insufferable still?
How do you even know them?
Definition of insufferable:
having or showing
unbearable arrogance
or conceit.
@stephenfisher3721 perhaps you should buy a dictionary. Those two woke, arrogant egomaniacs are still talking about the evil Israel ruling over the poor "palestinians" and "massacring" them in Gaza. They did not do the teshuva or had a sincere change of heart. IMO, the reason they did this interview was only to promote the book.
@stephenfisher3721 1. Buy a dictionary 2. I thought that conversation would feature people who had done the teshuva and became good Jews. Which isn't the case here. 3. I find the woke leftists to be tedious, shallow, boring, and egomaniacal - insufferable.
They should also join the Republican party…
This discussion is supposed to make you a better person?…..