"Intention doesn't matter when the execution doesn't work" is one of the biggest lessons I've learned from you. You're actually the reason I played through the Mass Effect games. I really enjoyed them too. I disagree with you on some points, but your constant reminders of how abuse victims are villainized has dramatically changed how I look at so many characters and stories.
I’m reminded of how every time a billionaire has been unalived in a predictable way, there’s a massive outpouring of memes mocking and celebrating their demise, and all the privileged pundits and bootlickers act with shock at this and wonder how the populous could behave this way. When It’s actually pretty easy and understandable to have no sympathy for the people abusing their power in such heinous ways. So, yeah Bioware and 2011 David Gaider, of course most people sided with the Mages.
The lead dev wanting a mindless fantasy horde that made for a weaker game reminds me of James Cameron wanting the music of Avatar to sound completely unlike anything in the world so compiled a bunch of indigenous music and musical stylings that had barely been heard by people out of the culture… Only to throw it all away because I shit you not it didn’t sound enough like the American national anthem. Discarding the unique and interesting for the same stuff you’re familiar with
Dark spawn is nowhere near that bad, the problems with dark spawn was that they didn’t add enough to the story outside of background presence which mostly comes from the dark spawn not being flush out enough. Some of the minor details about dark spawn and the faction born from the dark called the grey wardens were pretty well thought out which is why the only thing the dark spawn needed was more time develop and more importance to the main plot of the games which could have came from dark spawn having some sort of clearer face early on like the first villain from DA3 who I am pretty sure came from a earlier DLC.
At least we know that writers raining fire over their work because their feelings got hurt for a second isn't exclusive to just the developers of World of Warcraft. DA2 was also my favorite in the series, simply because the stakes were smaller and the hypocrisy of the templars was constantly spelled out. Even that one "good" Templar (whose name eludes me for the moment) felt like someone who was a "kind slaver" -- an inherently contradictory character who is personally nice but ethically abhorrent. Which might have been an interesting plot thread to follow, if DA2 delved more into the weeds. I always knew something was ever so slightly off about the story, despite my affection for it. Thank you for putting it into words, Lily.
Keep up the good work. I agree that BioWare often times tries to make everything morally grey to the detriment of the story. Like IRL sometimes bad things are done and just have to be stopped.
I think what's kinda horrible is that all mages are treated like mass murderers that are just waiting for the right moment to attack...but templars are so unreasonable with mages that they basically poking a bear over and over again...and treat people lashing out as response to abuse as proof that mages are dangerous. While especially events of Dragon Age 2 proves that templars themselves should have been held on much tighter leash, and under constant scrutiny...but with Chantry having standing they have, there isn't anybody who could actually do that to them. To actually put them back in line, and make them do their jobs - instead of abusing their position over mages almost all the time. Its basically a challenge to find reasonable templar that gives a fuck about mages as people. What's worse I think there is a messed up reason why templars didn't ever use or approved the "tranquil solution". They want to keep mages under the lock because "they are too dangerous" but they also want mages to be well trained in powerful magic because there are too many people who want to have an option of using mages in arm conflicts like war against darkspawn or as tools of dealing with magic in that world.
Interestingly the theme of how families and relationships are one of the many things that can be lost through war, or have lasting effects on those who go through it, could make for an interesting story. Shame it doesn't seem the writers of this game capitalized on that more.
You're not missing much with Carver (or rather, you're saving yourself a headache). He spends the whole game bitching and moaning about being in your shadow, and if you don't take him with you to the Deep Roads, he joins the Templars to "prove himself in spite of you". Guy's an ass.
I've been livestreaming playing these games, and I did watch Steven Universe. Would be pretty hard to make videos on it if I hadn't. Kindly stop lying, you coping bitch.
Actually, the lyrium the Templars are made to ingest to gain their anti-magic abilities are highly addictive. So they can as easily "choose to not being Templars" as a heroine addict can choose to not being an addict anymore. Of course this is just a way for The Chantry to keep the Templars in line, the lyrium is not needed for the anti magic abilities but is given woth the purpose of enslaving them. Which is one of the reasons why Ii find it very interesting how so many hatepiles on the Templars but few gives a dam about the Chantry.
To me at least the Chantry have always been a side story, which is why so many people didn't grasp it as the evil it truly is. I guess modelling it after one of, if not THE, most evil organisations in history, The Catholic Church, isn't on the nose enough for most people. People complain about His Dark Materials being unsubtle (and yeah, it is), but apparently you have to make your allegory this blunt for people to get it. But what about Leliana? What about her, she's a "reformed" assassin who canonically returns to being a psychopathic CIA operative (tautology tbh) at the drop of a hat. If anything she shows just how much a "repentant" person is allowed to get away with by the Church.
The Templars still choose to become Templars and ingest lyrium, though. They could easily, you know, not do that. Mages don't get that choice. They're born with their magic and are forced to live a life where they're persecuted for something they literally cannot change. Saying that the Templars' and the mages' situation is the same is like saying that being a minority and being a drug-addicted cop is the same. It's not. One is completely out of the individual's control, the other is the result of the individual actively making the choice to be that thing.
Idk if this is coincidental or an attempt to make you side-eye mages, but another thing that happens in just about every game is a major mage betrayal. What I mean by "major" is that it's a character you have to recruit and can't get rid of. People were trying to guess which mage would betray you in VG. The thing I find funny about that is that most people automatically assume at this point that a mage is going to in some way be using the protagonist, and not only are most people still pro-mage, but many of us look forward to romancing the mage in the party. I love the (mostly) pro mage part of this fandom. And it sucks that they turned up their nose at DA2 bc not only was Hawke an amazing protagonist, but there was so much more depth to the conflicts in this game. I do have 1 thing that makes me feel gross about this game. Bad enough that you can return Fenris, but Anders can approve. Which is insane. Edit: Unrelated to the video, but I keep seeing that Im not subscribed. Even though I subscribed. Anyone know what's up with that? I wonder what you'll have to say about Solas and how he connects to both the elven and mage plight. I certainly have feelings on the matter. There's a conversation he has with Dorian about what happened to Arlathan. Its one of my favorite conversations. Dorian is apologizing about what the Imperium did in the past, and Solas says that if he wants to make ammends, he should be freeing the slves in Teventir. Dorian says he doesnt know if he can, and Solas ends the concersation with, "Then how sorry are you." The only annoying thing about it is that the comment section of the video where Dorian and Solas are talking, most of the people are on about how mean Solas is to Dorian. And im like, "Y'all are aware that Dorian starts of pro-slavery, right? Right?!"
DA2 has always been and still is my favorite in the series. I loved the smaller-scale story. Circle Bethany and fem Hawke are my canon sibling relationship/outcome, and I adore their sisterly bond on that path (vs. Grey Warden Bethany, which is a bit sad). But the sibling relationship between fem Hawke Carver is more relatable to my real-life sibling relationships, so I really appreciated seeing that play out, too. I ignore what Gaider intended for the mage/templar conflict while I play because, as you said, the "both sides" narrative doesn't really fly with what we see in the games. No matter how sympathetic some individual templars are, I won't be on the oppressor's side. Turns out that my anti-genocide views are not conditional. Go figure.
A big writing failing I almost always think of in DA2 is when Anders talks to you if you’re romancing Fenris, where he says the infamous line ‘Fenris has let one bad experience color his view of the world’ Ignoring the fact that, you know…Fenris was a TEVINTER SLAVE
This comment awakened a memory in me, he definitely did just randomly say it in a middle of nowhere but I wouldn’t call that bad writing because it is sorta true, it was one of Fenris defining traits but anders randomly saying was just funny.
Honestly playing DA2 I never noticed that the mage Templar conflict was “Grey.” It’s written far too much that it’s Templar wrong, I could never decide to be Templar outside of a “evil” play through. Even the random murderer that kills your mom doesn’t feel like a Pro Templar position, it feels like tragic happenstance and the moment you think about it, it’s Templars fault because they failed to stop it.
I’m surprised to learn that they were trying to be morally grey from the beginning. As a kid playing for the first time, I thought the Mage/Templar conflict was a narrative on propaganda. After getting through the first part of the Mage Origin and being told what to believe, I naturally read every lore book I could get my hands on. Within 20 minutes of playing DA I was firmly on ‘The Chantry is full of shit’ side of things. Even if you don’t play a Mage you eventually meet Mages outside of Chantry influence and learn that things don’t add up. I’ve always found it fascinating that real world people would drink the fictional coolaid and defend the in-game status quo when throughout the games and other media, there are black and white examples of the Chantry and Templars being wrong. There is a pro-Templar corner of the fandom and they defend their stance with torrents of easily disproved BS. Wild tbh. We visit multiple cultures with free Mages and they’re fine. Many having existed before the Chantry. Take the Avvar. They don’t fear demons because they foster symbiotic relationships with spirits via their Mages and demons are kept at bay. The Chantry would destroy that if they could and everyone would be objectively worse off. And yes, Tevinter is trash but so is every other nation. We see multiple examples of slavery and oppression in various locations but Tevinter is ‘the bad one’ because Magic? Where are my critical thinkers!!! I think that, for some people, the Chantry and Templars represent something familiar, comfortable. They side with the fictional status quo because otherwise they’d have to ask questions about uncomfortable real world parallels. I think the motivations behind at least some of the writers to try and force grey into the Mage/Templar conflict come from similar feelings.
Its funny how sad the "mages can fall into the hands of demons" argument is when... your a grey warden... you drink the blood of the dark spawn to gain their powers with a maybe 25% success rate... and it turns out by the end of origins the way grey wardens are made is just how dark spawn are made without the baby birding and rape I played all the routes just to see how they played out but my favorite was the first an elf mage. Cause since the grey warden doomed me to die young I just Constantined all the demons throughout the run like. Yeah sure come take my soul in 3 years leave the kid alone(little do the demons know I will be dead before then and their gonna have to take turns with my soul)
19:21 Looked up the game that Lily was referencing and DAMN does it look good, I might need to pick it up In case anybody is wondering the name: Stray Dogs - The Roleplaying Musical
As briefly touched on in this video, mages in DA are born with the capability to cast magic, and they are often oppressed people who aren't born like that. It's much easier to side with people like that because they can't help how they were born, and the writing opposed side has to work a bit more if the intention is show such oppression is worth it. But I do love how being a mage is apart of someone's identity as anything else. It's why all of my protagonists are mages because i love seeing how the games react to a mage protagonist. And for the personal and grounded story DA2 is going for, It's my favorite DA to be a mage in.
"I quickly learned the difference between creating a setting that made for interesting reading on the page and one that made for something around which you could build an interesting game." I guess the people who made the first 13 Final Fantasies didn't get the memo.
Being told constantly that the world isn't black and white as a way to "just stop worrying" about things...certainly makes one feel crazy and more depressed.
i want a sequel to dragon age 2 so bad. I want to know what happened when Hawke and the party fled Kirkwall, what happen to Hawke's estate, how varric became vicount. if Anders is still alive how is he doing. what does Merrill think of the valegaurd and solas. so many questions were never answered and can i just say I would love a child urchin rouge companions in my party, a little boy with daggers.
i needed this video back when i first got into this franchise (i started with da2) and had to sit with my frustration over all the handwaving and 'no don't look at that' attitude to the rampant oppression of ostracized groups. and then again when i saw anti-mage players on the internet -__- (who of course are also anti-elf, those two go hand in hand). i'm so mad at myself for not understanding the popularity of the 'knife ear' slur in fandom spaces (even outside dragonage fandom) all these years until you pointed out that phonetic similarity and fjskalfd;sja I'm so mad for not seeing it. I'm so goddamn mad. You're absolutely right.
What drives me nuts is it feels like all this could be so easily fixed if you didnt go grimdark: - why do we have to deal with hoard/plague/copyright-non-infringing Mordor? Chaos, hate and discrimination weaken the barrier between worlds, a weak veil benefits them and invading when it looks like society might start fixing its shit to distract them has consistently worked. Mages vs Templars? Power reveals. Mages who give up their power cant do much but get to be with their famlies aren't constantly temped by demons offering them eldrich knowledge to skip the work of learning magic safely. Templars will insist that any mage who isnt power limiting is a walking time bomb (with the game showing this about 5% odds of being true). Have it be a discussion abojt how power reveals. Eta: yes this would depend on execution. Eta2: talked to a friend whose better at statistics and she suggested changing 33 to 5 percent
Allow me to be honest for a moment, the reason why I jumped into the Dragon Age franchise seven years ago... was because of Iron Bull-- Pardon, THE Iron Bull. The very first time I'd heard of Bioware was back in 2011, I was on a second date with this guy who spent most of the night bitching about DA2, and how it wasn't as good as his "beloved Origins". After dumping him, I went home and looked up DA: Origins videos, let's plays, reviews and such, did a little reading about Bioware, and nothing I saw interested me enough to try the game. Then I found videos on DA2, and while it looked a little better, visually, it still seemed like more of the same edgy teenage crap, and promptly forgot all about the game and Bioware. Until, I got into SWtOR a few years later. By then, I was willing to find information on DA: Inquisition, which led me to Iron Bull's romance arc videos on TH-cam. 500+ hours of multiple playthroughs of Inquisition, I figured "why not give DA2 a try". Well, I played it once. Made a male, Mage Hawke, romanced Anders, sided with the mages (duh), and gave Hawke's boyfriend a pat on the head for what he did to the chantry. The party remained loyal to the end, except for Sebastion (but who cares?), struck down Carver for being an asshole, abandoning Hawke to join his mortal enemies, and got a decent ending. (Except for the fact that in every Inquisition playthrough, I always sacrificed Hawke in the fade. Just seemed appropriate.) Anyway! DA2 wasn't so bad, I appreciated the greater emphasis on character, getting to dive into the mage/templar conflict. The smaller scale and "lower" stakes have a greater impact than most people are willing to admit. I might buy another copy and go through it again, maybe.
I share the feeling that DA2 is the best one solely on the premise and concept , even if the actual game and story is just full of holes and issues. It beats the safe and bland approach of veilguard , Origins okay atempt at Dark fantasy and DAI having a terrible villian with a mediocre plot that only have sparks of somethings great. DA2 is like a worse version of KOTOR2. For all their issues , at very least they're bold and unique.
I love DA2. It's my favourite game. I agree that there isn't two sides, the mages are just correct. Although you've never chosen Carver, I love him. He's the kid that his dad basically ignored and he loves Hawke and looks up to him but feels second best. His arc is really interesting even if he's an asshole.
@jaspervanheycop9722 I didn't mean the morally grey bit. I mean the whole, doing rotations around a singular focused small-scale setting as a choice-driven story unfolds thing.
Awesome that your Dragon Age 2 video comes out just as I get my copy. Honestly you can only side with the Templars if you are role playing an scumbag or you are one. Glad to see a fellow Bethany and Merrill protector.
I can't remember which book it was, but a sci fi book had the sci fi equivalent to "incarceration of an entire race" that i think might be the only not 100% evil version. They sent all the enemy _who actually participated voluntarily_ (all the adults who did something to further the war effort _voluntarily_ - from soldiers who wanted to fight to politicians who_started_ the fight. Bean counters, weapon designers, ship makers - anyone on the other side who WANTED the war and worked to make it happen; those conscripted, to fight or to work, were NOT included in this, and were helped to rebuild their country without crazy warmongers) to a Space Australia (a not populated by anything that can _think_ planet.) They were checked in on every 5 years, and the story actually revolved around what to do with the inevitable _babies._ Because they hadn't committed war crimes, but on the other hand, taking them from their parents was also Not Good. And on the third hand, putting these people there was to not kill them, but not build a prison - them reproducing just gave the chance to continue their religious zealotry in a new generation... like, it was this once fringe religion that said only their species were people, and all aliens were actually _demons,_ and it was practiced by only about 10% of the populace, but that 10% took over... Because, well, it was also an examination of the aftereffects of totalitarianism/ fascism, as in, what to do with the _children_ of fascists, who are probably going to be indoctrinated from birth if left with their parents - it's abuse to take them and abuse to leave them. The characters made what i feel is the wrong choice to leave the children - this compounds the abuse of letting them be raised by crazy religious fascists (made extra crazy and wanting revenge) by creating a situation where they're potentially going to spread that harm in another war. But i also don't feel good about the "take the children" because... because while _I_ believe being raised by bigots or fascists of any kind is abuse, so many people DON'T believe that, it makes me question myself... Thoughts? Lily, I'd actually be _very_ interested in your thoughts, because you often come up with things i haven't, things that expand the initial scope, or give new avenues to explore, and that helps me firm up my own thoughts (sometimes, i admit, because i disagree with you, but mostly because you find better ways to express what i was _trying_ to express, if that makes sense. Lol) But anyone else, come and throw me a thought about it!
Nobody knew Quentin was a mage, or that there was any magic involved - they thought there was just some lunatic running around cutting up women for shiggles. That's why the Templars didn't get involved.
DA Oirgins is grand in design, areas to explore, setting you into the hero basically straight away, and it feels like it. For me you don't feel like the "common" man so to speak, only as the hero, who somehow can withstand the weight of the world on their shoulder without cracking under its weight. I love it, because it gives that "power trip" people would want from that. But I feel DA2 nails the vibe of the small common man being throw into a shit show. A smaller scale but same time for me epic, because it shows how even a smaller area of the world can have a lot going for it. DA2 is the "cozy" game in the series, while DA O and DA I is the grander of the games as with scale
That (in my humble opinion) was your best. Tis so strange... DA2 was my first game in the series and remains my favorite from a storyline perspective - and you covered all the reasons why. Also, I would've loved an analysis on CDPR's Witcher game series.
Hello found you from a video trying to dogshit your career and all i say is i believe your side of the story more because if you were such a bad person and such a evil villian why did so many people wait to come out as a supposed victim when you came out first as a victim. In essence they pretended to be a victim to justify shaming you and in essence victim shame you. keep up the great work and i hope you can recover from there bullshit and have the best career you can. Thanks for the awesome videos over the years.
Yeah I still hate Anders. Less so because of what he did but how he did it. The dude have the Circle mages no warning of his actions so they couldn't prepare for when the Templars went apeshit. In fact, it looked like that was part of his plan to get them killed unjustly so the rest of the Circles rise up.
I don't know why but this sort of reminds me of the Stormcloak, imperial thing in Skyrim I mean it doesn't go their dark sorry if I'm wrong it just sort of reminds me of it
The way u talk about state power and authoritarianism makes u sound like an anarchist (compliment). Since morality is all about what people think is good or bad and people don't often think too much about their own morals, even when confronted, I def agree that the thought of "moral greyness" is used so they dont have to actually think about or confront what they actually believe and how that interacts with the world. Ever since learning about power relations and oppression, there is very little I have found to be 'grey' with respect to what people do, and when something does appear grey, its just because I don't know enough to understand yet. Thus, I think its useful to seek more knowledge when you think something is 'grey' or honestly whenever u catch urself in any sort of thought termination.
The series had always rubbed me the wrong way, for some of the same reason's you outline, though I dind't really have the words to describe it beyond 'the sociology of this setting makes no logistical sense and also makes me feel vaguely unclean'. A *very* long time ago I tried writing a fanfic (now thoroughly scrubbed from the internet) that finangled a lot of the setting to try to fix some of these problems. By the end the result had diverged so thorouhgly that If I were to ctrl-F the names I would have had an entirely distinct novel (though, to be clear, a very, very bad one, very obviously written by a 15 year old) Some details I can recall: The bigest difference was that the Templar were less powerful. While the Chantry was still the main cultural, political, economic, and military power, but the Templar were one faction amongst many, kept on a very short leash by a church that doesn't entirely trust them and certainly doens't like them. They are still anti-mage hardliners, but they do not enslave and murder mages wantonly (that they admit to) The Circles were slightly less draconian, and were nominally run by mages as a concession to the Chantry in exchange for retaining some autonomy and keeping the Templar and broader public in check. Like the Psi-corp from Babylon 5. Also, blood magic is fine, no one cares. A late-story reveal is that the Darkspawn and mages are connected. Not "a mage created them", but that when the world was created, mages were not supposed to exist, and Darkspawn exist as a kind of cosmic immune response against it. The more mages there are, and the more magic they use, the larger and more frequent Darkspaw invasion are, culling mage and mortal both, in a kind of cyclical equilibrium. Kind of like the Reapers in Mass Effect, at least what was implied in the first two before they changed their mind making the third. This? THIS actually makes the situation grey. Even if a mage is a good person who uses their magic exclusively to run a free healing clinic, every spell they cast is aggravating a looming, apocalyptic threat in a very small but very real way. Even a potential mage who never learns magic or casts a spell, they harm others and damage the world just by existing. The protagonists learn this near the end, and weather or not to tell anyone is a genuine moral dilemma.
I'll admit to being very unkind to DAII in my initial run largely because it was such a truncated and less sprawling experience to Dragon Age Origins. The easiest fix for this would have been changing the name of the game to Dragon Age: Kirkwall Chronicles or something. The developers realized this and gave us DA:I as opposed to DAIII on the next run. Dragon Age Origins was at its core a game about politics, a series of decisions with different people in different positions of power all of which culminated in the final part of the game and what armies (read: summons) you could bring to the fight. I loved it for that. Dragon Age II had so much potential but it cut a ton of loose ends in service of a shortened (read: cheaper) game. But allowing for these shortcomings, and maybe the newer DLC, I suppose it was an alright game.
Dragon Age 2 is still one of my favorite games that I keep coming back too from time to time mainly because Hawke is one of the best written characters. I always play a male mage that mostly response with humor cause some of his responses are just freakin hilarious. I side with the templars in the end cause 1) Carver becomes a templar and I didn't want Hawke to fight his brother 2) Hawke lost his mother to a crazy blood mage 3) He was betrayed by his best friend and used to blow up the chantry. I written Hawke where he would become a villain in the end hunting both mages and templars. He would become like the Lich King or Darth Vader (two of my all time favorite characters). One of the greatest quotes from the Dark Knight: ""You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain"
man i have always loved this channel. but I have to stopwatching. i cant support the factless spread of hate for israel, do some research got you got your facts wrong.
@lexxik9111 Oh you live in Gaza? My apologies, it must be terrible having a fascist warmonger right next door carpet bombing your neighbourhood while their American sugar daddy foots the bill.
"Intention doesn't matter when the execution doesn't work" is one of the biggest lessons I've learned from you. You're actually the reason I played through the Mass Effect games. I really enjoyed them too. I disagree with you on some points, but your constant reminders of how abuse victims are villainized has dramatically changed how I look at so many characters and stories.
I’m reminded of how every time a billionaire has been unalived in a predictable way, there’s a massive outpouring of memes mocking and celebrating their demise, and all the privileged pundits and bootlickers act with shock at this and wonder how the populous could behave this way. When It’s actually pretty easy and understandable to have no sympathy for the people abusing their power in such heinous ways.
So, yeah Bioware and 2011 David Gaider, of course most people sided with the Mages.
I get the notifications for this and I remembered my SWTOR password. Today is a good day.
The lead dev wanting a mindless fantasy horde that made for a weaker game reminds me of James Cameron wanting the music of Avatar to sound completely unlike anything in the world so compiled a bunch of indigenous music and musical stylings that had barely been heard by people out of the culture… Only to throw it all away because I shit you not it didn’t sound enough like the American national anthem. Discarding the unique and interesting for the same stuff you’re familiar with
Dark spawn is nowhere near that bad, the problems with dark spawn was that they didn’t add enough to the story outside of background presence which mostly comes from the dark spawn not being flush out enough.
Some of the minor details about dark spawn and the faction born from the dark called the grey wardens were pretty well thought out which is why the only thing the dark spawn needed was more time develop and more importance to the main plot of the games which could have came from dark spawn having some sort of clearer face early on like the first villain from DA3 who I am pretty sure came from a earlier DLC.
At least we know that writers raining fire over their work because their feelings got hurt for a second isn't exclusive to just the developers of World of Warcraft.
DA2 was also my favorite in the series, simply because the stakes were smaller and the hypocrisy of the templars was constantly spelled out. Even that one "good" Templar (whose name eludes me for the moment) felt like someone who was a "kind slaver" -- an inherently contradictory character who is personally nice but ethically abhorrent. Which might have been an interesting plot thread to follow, if DA2 delved more into the weeds.
I always knew something was ever so slightly off about the story, despite my affection for it. Thank you for putting it into words, Lily.
I’ve never been this early but I’m a simple man, I see a lily orchard video essay and my ass is sat and ready enjoy
Keep up the good work. I agree that BioWare often times tries to make everything morally grey to the detriment of the story. Like IRL sometimes bad things are done and just have to be stopped.
I think what's kinda horrible is that all mages are treated like mass murderers that are just waiting for the right moment to attack...but templars are so unreasonable with mages that they basically poking a bear over and over again...and treat people lashing out as response to abuse as proof that mages are dangerous. While especially events of Dragon Age 2 proves that templars themselves should have been held on much tighter leash, and under constant scrutiny...but with Chantry having standing they have, there isn't anybody who could actually do that to them. To actually put them back in line, and make them do their jobs - instead of abusing their position over mages almost all the time. Its basically a challenge to find reasonable templar that gives a fuck about mages as people.
What's worse I think there is a messed up reason why templars didn't ever use or approved the "tranquil solution". They want to keep mages under the lock because "they are too dangerous" but they also want mages to be well trained in powerful magic because there are too many people who want to have an option of using mages in arm conflicts like war against darkspawn or as tools of dealing with magic in that world.
Interestingly the theme of how families and relationships are one of the many things that can be lost through war, or have lasting effects on those who go through it, could make for an interesting story. Shame it doesn't seem the writers of this game capitalized on that more.
You're not missing much with Carver (or rather, you're saving yourself a headache). He spends the whole game bitching and moaning about being in your shadow, and if you don't take him with you to the Deep Roads, he joins the Templars to "prove himself in spite of you".
Guy's an ass.
I wonder if you actually played the game or you're just talking out your behind like you did with Steven universe?
I've been livestreaming playing these games, and I did watch Steven Universe. Would be pretty hard to make videos on it if I hadn't.
Kindly stop lying, you coping bitch.
Actually, the lyrium the Templars are made to ingest to gain their anti-magic abilities are highly addictive. So they can as easily "choose to not being Templars" as a heroine addict can choose to not being an addict anymore.
Of course this is just a way for The Chantry to keep the Templars in line, the lyrium is not needed for the anti magic abilities but is given woth the purpose of enslaving them. Which is one of the reasons why Ii find it very interesting how so many hatepiles on the Templars but few gives a dam about the Chantry.
To me at least the Chantry have always been a side story, which is why so many people didn't grasp it as the evil it truly is. I guess modelling it after one of, if not THE, most evil organisations in history, The Catholic Church, isn't on the nose enough for most people. People complain about His Dark Materials being unsubtle (and yeah, it is), but apparently you have to make your allegory this blunt for people to get it.
But what about Leliana? What about her, she's a "reformed" assassin who canonically returns to being a psychopathic CIA operative (tautology tbh) at the drop of a hat. If anything she shows just how much a "repentant" person is allowed to get away with by the Church.
The Templars still choose to become Templars and ingest lyrium, though. They could easily, you know, not do that. Mages don't get that choice. They're born with their magic and are forced to live a life where they're persecuted for something they literally cannot change. Saying that the Templars' and the mages' situation is the same is like saying that being a minority and being a drug-addicted cop is the same. It's not. One is completely out of the individual's control, the other is the result of the individual actively making the choice to be that thing.
Idk if this is coincidental or an attempt to make you side-eye mages, but another thing that happens in just about every game is a major mage betrayal. What I mean by "major" is that it's a character you have to recruit and can't get rid of. People were trying to guess which mage would betray you in VG. The thing I find funny about that is that most people automatically assume at this point that a mage is going to in some way be using the protagonist, and not only are most people still pro-mage, but many of us look forward to romancing the mage in the party. I love the (mostly) pro mage part of this fandom. And it sucks that they turned up their nose at DA2 bc not only was Hawke an amazing protagonist, but there was so much more depth to the conflicts in this game. I do have 1 thing that makes me feel gross about this game. Bad enough that you can return Fenris, but Anders can approve. Which is insane.
Edit: Unrelated to the video, but I keep seeing that Im not subscribed. Even though I subscribed. Anyone know what's up with that?
I wonder what you'll have to say about Solas and how he connects to both the elven and mage plight. I certainly have feelings on the matter. There's a conversation he has with Dorian about what happened to Arlathan. Its one of my favorite conversations. Dorian is apologizing about what the Imperium did in the past, and Solas says that if he wants to make ammends, he should be freeing the slves in Teventir. Dorian says he doesnt know if he can, and Solas ends the concersation with, "Then how sorry are you."
The only annoying thing about it is that the comment section of the video where Dorian and Solas are talking, most of the people are on about how mean Solas is to Dorian. And im like, "Y'all are aware that Dorian starts of pro-slavery, right? Right?!"
DA2 has always been and still is my favorite in the series. I loved the smaller-scale story. Circle Bethany and fem Hawke are my canon sibling relationship/outcome, and I adore their sisterly bond on that path (vs. Grey Warden Bethany, which is a bit sad). But the sibling relationship between fem Hawke Carver is more relatable to my real-life sibling relationships, so I really appreciated seeing that play out, too. I ignore what Gaider intended for the mage/templar conflict while I play because, as you said, the "both sides" narrative doesn't really fly with what we see in the games. No matter how sympathetic some individual templars are, I won't be on the oppressor's side. Turns out that my anti-genocide views are not conditional. Go figure.
Can't wait for your video on Inquisition!
Dang girl you been on a roll. 10/10
Excellent music choice.
A big writing failing I almost always think of in DA2 is when Anders talks to you if you’re romancing Fenris, where he says the infamous line ‘Fenris has let one bad experience color his view of the world’
Ignoring the fact that, you know…Fenris was a TEVINTER SLAVE
This comment awakened a memory in me, he definitely did just randomly say it in a middle of nowhere but I wouldn’t call that bad writing because it is sorta true, it was one of Fenris defining traits but anders randomly saying was just funny.
SLAVERY is not “one bad experience”
@@nick25oo SLAVERY is not "one bad experience"
If you play a human mage in origins you're mother will tell you that was your cousin
Honestly playing DA2 I never noticed that the mage Templar conflict was “Grey.” It’s written far too much that it’s Templar wrong, I could never decide to be Templar outside of a “evil” play through. Even the random murderer that kills your mom doesn’t feel like a Pro Templar position, it feels like tragic happenstance and the moment you think about it, it’s Templars fault because they failed to stop it.
I’m surprised to learn that they were trying to be morally grey from the beginning. As a kid playing for the first time, I thought the Mage/Templar conflict was a narrative on propaganda.
After getting through the first part of the Mage Origin and being told what to believe, I naturally read every lore book I could get my hands on.
Within 20 minutes of playing DA I was firmly on ‘The Chantry is full of shit’ side of things. Even if you don’t play a Mage you eventually meet Mages outside of Chantry influence and learn that things don’t add up.
I’ve always found it fascinating that real world people would drink the fictional coolaid and defend the in-game status quo when throughout the games and other media, there are black and white examples of the Chantry and Templars being wrong.
There is a pro-Templar corner of the fandom and they defend their stance with torrents of easily disproved BS. Wild tbh.
We visit multiple cultures with free Mages and they’re fine. Many having existed before the Chantry. Take the Avvar.
They don’t fear demons because they foster symbiotic relationships with spirits via their Mages and demons are kept at bay. The Chantry would destroy that if they could and everyone would be objectively worse off.
And yes, Tevinter is trash but so is every other nation. We see multiple examples of slavery and oppression in various locations but Tevinter is ‘the bad one’ because Magic? Where are my critical thinkers!!!
I think that, for some people, the Chantry and Templars represent something familiar, comfortable. They side with the fictional status quo because otherwise they’d have to ask questions about uncomfortable real world parallels.
I think the motivations behind at least some of the writers to try and force grey into the Mage/Templar conflict come from similar feelings.
It's amazing how good this game is despite the fact that it was rushed beyond belief. It had a 13 month development time
Its funny how sad the "mages can fall into the hands of demons" argument is when... your a grey warden... you drink the blood of the dark spawn to gain their powers with a maybe 25% success rate... and it turns out by the end of origins the way grey wardens are made is just how dark spawn are made without the baby birding and rape
I played all the routes just to see how they played out but my favorite was the first an elf mage. Cause since the grey warden doomed me to die young I just Constantined all the demons throughout the run like. Yeah sure come take my soul in 3 years leave the kid alone(little do the demons know I will be dead before then and their gonna have to take turns with my soul)
Damn Lily, you’re on a roll, these Dragon Age videos are glorious!
19:21 Looked up the game that Lily was referencing and DAMN does it look good, I might need to pick it up
In case anybody is wondering the name: Stray Dogs - The Roleplaying Musical
As briefly touched on in this video, mages in DA are born with the capability to cast magic, and they are often oppressed people who aren't born like that. It's much easier to side with people like that because they can't help how they were born, and the writing opposed side has to work a bit more if the intention is show such oppression is worth it.
But I do love how being a mage is apart of someone's identity as anything else. It's why all of my protagonists are mages because i love seeing how the games react to a mage protagonist. And for the personal and grounded story DA2 is going for, It's my favorite DA to be a mage in.
"I quickly learned the difference between creating a setting that made for interesting reading on the page and one that made for something around which you could build an interesting game."
I guess the people who made the first 13 Final Fantasies didn't get the memo.
I like the real world parallels. It helps me contextualize. Usually I just use other fiction: Mages is X-Men, duh.
If they wanted to made the Templars simbolize Security, they should made a show of them doing good works, not show their victims acting with violence.
Being told constantly that the world isn't black and white as a way to "just stop worrying" about things...certainly makes one feel crazy and more depressed.
Good video, really good premise for a game but fumbled by not enough understanding of the real world. Hawke is a real one.
Im shocked you barely mentioned X-zMen when they are dealing with the same themes, here!
i want a sequel to dragon age 2 so bad. I want to know what happened when Hawke and the party fled Kirkwall, what happen to Hawke's estate, how varric became vicount. if Anders is still alive how is he doing. what does Merrill think of the valegaurd and solas. so many questions were never answered and can i just say I would love a child urchin rouge companions in my party, a little boy with daggers.
i needed this video back when i first got into this franchise (i started with da2) and had to sit with my frustration over all the handwaving and 'no don't look at that' attitude to the rampant oppression of ostracized groups. and then again when i saw anti-mage players on the internet -__- (who of course are also anti-elf, those two go hand in hand).
i'm so mad at myself for not understanding the popularity of the 'knife ear' slur in fandom spaces (even outside dragonage fandom) all these years until you pointed out that phonetic similarity and fjskalfd;sja I'm so mad for not seeing it. I'm so goddamn mad. You're absolutely right.
This reminds me a lot of that moral grayness video, which is fine I really really like that video
Thank you for this.
very good video, that what i like.
What drives me nuts is it feels like all this could be so easily fixed if you didnt go grimdark:
- why do we have to deal with hoard/plague/copyright-non-infringing Mordor? Chaos, hate and discrimination weaken the barrier between worlds, a weak veil benefits them and invading when it looks like society might start fixing its shit to distract them has consistently worked.
Mages vs Templars? Power reveals. Mages who give up their power cant do much but get to be with their famlies aren't constantly temped by demons offering them eldrich knowledge to skip the work of learning magic safely. Templars will insist that any mage who isnt power limiting is a walking time bomb (with the game showing this about 5% odds of being true). Have it be a discussion abojt how power reveals.
Eta: yes this would depend on execution.
Eta2: talked to a friend whose better at statistics and she suggested changing 33 to 5 percent
Allow me to be honest for a moment, the reason why I jumped into the Dragon Age franchise seven years ago... was because of Iron Bull-- Pardon, THE Iron Bull.
The very first time I'd heard of Bioware was back in 2011, I was on a second date with this guy who spent most of the night bitching about DA2, and how it wasn't as good as his "beloved Origins". After dumping him, I went home and looked up DA: Origins videos, let's plays, reviews and such, did a little reading about Bioware, and nothing I saw interested me enough to try the game. Then I found videos on DA2, and while it looked a little better, visually, it still seemed like more of the same edgy teenage crap, and promptly forgot all about the game and Bioware.
Until, I got into SWtOR a few years later. By then, I was willing to find information on DA: Inquisition, which led me to Iron Bull's romance arc videos on TH-cam. 500+ hours of multiple playthroughs of Inquisition, I figured "why not give DA2 a try". Well, I played it once. Made a male, Mage Hawke, romanced Anders, sided with the mages (duh), and gave Hawke's boyfriend a pat on the head for what he did to the chantry. The party remained loyal to the end, except for Sebastion (but who cares?), struck down Carver for being an asshole, abandoning Hawke to join his mortal enemies, and got a decent ending. (Except for the fact that in every Inquisition playthrough, I always sacrificed Hawke in the fade. Just seemed appropriate.)
Anyway! DA2 wasn't so bad, I appreciated the greater emphasis on character, getting to dive into the mage/templar conflict. The smaller scale and "lower" stakes have a greater impact than most people are willing to admit. I might buy another copy and go through it again, maybe.
So refreshing to hear what I have been saying for over a decade.
I share the feeling that DA2 is the best one solely on the premise and concept , even if the actual game and story is just full of holes and issues.
It beats the safe and bland approach of veilguard , Origins okay atempt at Dark fantasy and DAI having a terrible villian with a mediocre plot that only have sparks of somethings great.
DA2 is like a worse version of KOTOR2. For all their issues , at very least they're bold and unique.
What’s your favourite song in Stray Gods?
What song Is that in the outro it sounds very familiar
God damn this was so good!
I love DA2. It's my favourite game. I agree that there isn't two sides, the mages are just correct. Although you've never chosen Carver, I love him. He's the kid that his dad basically ignored and he loves Hawke and looks up to him but feels second best. His arc is really interesting even if he's an asshole.
I wish this kind of story and execution could exist in a good RPG... that's not Disco Elysium.
Disco Elysium has no moral gray either. It's pretty clear who the good and bad people are.
@jaspervanheycop9722
I didn't mean the morally grey bit. I mean the whole, doing rotations around a singular focused small-scale setting as a choice-driven story unfolds thing.
THE HORDE, no
Playing veil guard RN and I'm loving hope. Hope the game series doesnt cause people are angry over dumb shit
Another great video. Also first 🎉😂
Awesome that your Dragon Age 2 video comes out just as I get my copy. Honestly you can only side with the Templars if you are role playing an scumbag or you are one. Glad to see a fellow Bethany and Merrill protector.
I can't remember which book it was, but a sci fi book had the sci fi equivalent to "incarceration of an entire race" that i think might be the only not 100% evil version. They sent all the enemy _who actually participated voluntarily_ (all the adults who did something to further the war effort _voluntarily_ - from soldiers who wanted to fight to politicians who_started_ the fight. Bean counters, weapon designers, ship makers - anyone on the other side who WANTED the war and worked to make it happen; those conscripted, to fight or to work, were NOT included in this, and were helped to rebuild their country without crazy warmongers) to a Space Australia (a not populated by anything that can _think_ planet.)
They were checked in on every 5 years, and the story actually revolved around what to do with the inevitable _babies._ Because they hadn't committed war crimes, but on the other hand, taking them from their parents was also Not Good. And on the third hand, putting these people there was to not kill them, but not build a prison - them reproducing just gave the chance to continue their religious zealotry in a new generation... like, it was this once fringe religion that said only their species were people, and all aliens were actually _demons,_ and it was practiced by only about 10% of the populace, but that 10% took over...
Because, well, it was also an examination of the aftereffects of totalitarianism/ fascism, as in, what to do with the _children_ of fascists, who are probably going to be indoctrinated from birth if left with their parents - it's abuse to take them and abuse to leave them. The characters made what i feel is the wrong choice to leave the children - this compounds the abuse of letting them be raised by crazy religious fascists (made extra crazy and wanting revenge) by creating a situation where they're potentially going to spread that harm in another war. But i also don't feel good about the "take the children" because... because while _I_ believe being raised by bigots or fascists of any kind is abuse, so many people DON'T believe that, it makes me question myself...
Thoughts? Lily, I'd actually be _very_ interested in your thoughts, because you often come up with things i haven't, things that expand the initial scope, or give new avenues to explore, and that helps me firm up my own thoughts (sometimes, i admit, because i disagree with you, but mostly because you find better ways to express what i was _trying_ to express, if that makes sense. Lol)
But anyone else, come and throw me a thought about it!
Nobody knew Quentin was a mage, or that there was any magic involved - they thought there was just some lunatic running around cutting up women for shiggles. That's why the Templars didn't get involved.
DA Oirgins is grand in design, areas to explore, setting you into the hero basically straight away, and it feels like it. For me you don't feel like the "common" man so to speak, only as the hero, who somehow can withstand the weight of the world on their shoulder without cracking under its weight. I love it, because it gives that "power trip" people would want from that.
But I feel DA2 nails the vibe of the small common man being throw into a shit show. A smaller scale but same time for me epic, because it shows how even a smaller area of the world can have a lot going for it.
DA2 is the "cozy" game in the series, while DA O and DA I is the grander of the games as with scale
That (in my humble opinion) was your best. Tis so strange... DA2 was my first game in the series and remains my favorite from a storyline perspective - and you covered all the reasons why. Also, I would've loved an analysis on CDPR's Witcher game series.
Hello found you from a video trying to dogshit your career and all i say is i believe your side of the story more because if you were such a bad person and such a evil villian why did so many people wait to come out as a supposed victim when you came out first as a victim. In essence they pretended to be a victim to justify shaming you and in essence victim shame you. keep up the great work and i hope you can recover from there bullshit and have the best career you can. Thanks for the awesome videos over the years.
u should do analysis of the game "detroit become human"
Yeah I still hate Anders. Less so because of what he did but how he did it. The dude have the Circle mages no warning of his actions so they couldn't prepare for when the Templars went apeshit. In fact, it looked like that was part of his plan to get them killed unjustly so the rest of the Circles rise up.
I don't know why but this sort of reminds me of the Stormcloak, imperial thing in Skyrim I mean it doesn't go their dark sorry if I'm wrong it just sort of reminds me of it
The way u talk about state power and authoritarianism makes u sound like an anarchist (compliment). Since morality is all about what people think is good or bad and people don't often think too much about their own morals, even when confronted, I def agree that the thought of "moral greyness" is used so they dont have to actually think about or confront what they actually believe and how that interacts with the world. Ever since learning about power relations and oppression, there is very little I have found to be 'grey' with respect to what people do, and when something does appear grey, its just because I don't know enough to understand yet. Thus, I think its useful to seek more knowledge when you think something is 'grey' or honestly whenever u catch urself in any sort of thought termination.
The series had always rubbed me the wrong way, for some of the same reason's you outline, though I dind't really have the words to describe it beyond 'the sociology of this setting makes no logistical sense and also makes me feel vaguely unclean'.
A *very* long time ago I tried writing a fanfic (now thoroughly scrubbed from the internet) that finangled a lot of the setting to try to fix some of these problems. By the end the result had diverged so thorouhgly that If I were to ctrl-F the names I would have had an entirely distinct novel (though, to be clear, a very, very bad one, very obviously written by a 15 year old) Some details I can recall:
The bigest difference was that the Templar were less powerful. While the Chantry was still the main cultural, political, economic, and military power, but the Templar were one faction amongst many, kept on a very short leash by a church that doesn't entirely trust them and certainly doens't like them. They are still anti-mage hardliners, but they do not enslave and murder mages wantonly (that they admit to)
The Circles were slightly less draconian, and were nominally run by mages as a concession to the Chantry in exchange for retaining some autonomy and keeping the Templar and broader public in check. Like the Psi-corp from Babylon 5. Also, blood magic is fine, no one cares.
A late-story reveal is that the Darkspawn and mages are connected. Not "a mage created them", but that when the world was created, mages were not supposed to exist, and Darkspawn exist as a kind of cosmic immune response against it. The more mages there are, and the more magic they use, the larger and more frequent Darkspaw invasion are, culling mage and mortal both, in a kind of cyclical equilibrium. Kind of like the Reapers in Mass Effect, at least what was implied in the first two before they changed their mind making the third.
This? THIS actually makes the situation grey. Even if a mage is a good person who uses their magic exclusively to run a free healing clinic, every spell they cast is aggravating a looming, apocalyptic threat in a very small but very real way. Even a potential mage who never learns magic or casts a spell, they harm others and damage the world just by existing. The protagonists learn this near the end, and weather or not to tell anyone is a genuine moral dilemma.
Hey lily ima a 27 year old black man living in the state of Georgia and I also have adhd. How are you and Mikaila this holiday season?
I'll admit to being very unkind to DAII in my initial run largely because it was such a truncated and less sprawling experience to Dragon Age Origins. The easiest fix for this would have been changing the name of the game to Dragon Age: Kirkwall Chronicles or something. The developers realized this and gave us DA:I as opposed to DAIII on the next run.
Dragon Age Origins was at its core a game about politics, a series of decisions with different people in different positions of power all of which culminated in the final part of the game and what armies (read: summons) you could bring to the fight. I loved it for that. Dragon Age II had so much potential but it cut a ton of loose ends in service of a shortened (read: cheaper) game. But allowing for these shortcomings, and maybe the newer DLC, I suppose it was an alright game.
Dragon Age 2 is still one of my favorite games that I keep coming back too from time to time mainly because Hawke is one of the best written characters. I always play a male mage that mostly response with humor cause some of his responses are just freakin hilarious. I side with the templars in the end cause 1) Carver becomes a templar and I didn't want Hawke to fight his brother 2) Hawke lost his mother to a crazy blood mage 3) He was betrayed by his best friend and used to blow up the chantry. I written Hawke where he would become a villain in the end hunting both mages and templars. He would become like the Lich King or Darth Vader (two of my all time favorite characters).
One of the greatest quotes from the Dark Knight: ""You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain"
man i have always loved this channel. but I have to stopwatching. i cant support the factless spread of hate for israel, do some research got you got your facts wrong.
"Factless spread of hate" Hi IOF soldier, how's the war of broken glass going?
@@LilianOrchard im not a soldier. I am an innocent civilian that has been facing terrorist trying to bomb me for over a year.
@lexxik9111 Oh you live in Gaza? My apologies, it must be terrible having a fascist warmonger right next door carpet bombing your neighbourhood while their American sugar daddy foots the bill.
@@LilianOrchard I fucking adore you.
Free Palestine loser lmao 😂