Great series of how anime characters speak Japanese. Please do Itsuki Nakano from the quintessential quintuplets or any or all the 7 main characters in TQQ. How they speak Japanese I believe is very important to understanding the plot eg the honorifics, the lost in translation stuff (eg when they say things like zurui, hatsukoi, uso, tachi, fukuzatsu Vs taihen, mote etc that are removed from the dub). I compiled a lot of the lost in translation stuff in r/gotoubun Something to consider about Itsuki: The Quintessential Quintuplets' character types are: Ichika - Onee-san / ara ara, Nino - tsundere, miku - kuudere / dandere, Yotsuba - genki Itsuki - ?? - Tsundere like Nino? - Eat-suki? - Imouto? - Someone who speaks keigo to their siblings, to Fuutarou and to Raiha and to everyone basically? Actually, the main thing I learned from Yuta's videos that keigo is basically just desu, masu & their variations. I swear when I learned elementary Japanese in bachelor's (foreign language classes are required in universities in the Philippines) we were never even taught the word keigo. All this time I had no idea Itsuki was the only quint and actually only main character who was talking keigo to EVERYONE. Anyway, I have a theory as to what Itsuki's type is, but you're not gonna like it... For more japanese stuff re TQQ, see r/gotoubun r/itsuesugi r/raitsuki etc Also: ubmu3x ubmu3x ubmu3x ubmu3x ubmu3x ubmu3x
it bothered me in Japan until I asked a friend how to snark back when it happened.....it was great: "anata mo jouzu desu ne!" it always ended with a laugh and.... "ha ha yaa....nihonjin desu kara..." ..something like that. no hurt feelings on both sides...
ほんとおに ありがとお！ I feel like the text book japanese learning apps that Ive tryed feel excessive and only teach keigo form. Japanese is actually my 4th language, as my native one is Latvian, and English I learned in my early teens. I am also learning German as my 3rd language. And I can say that the best way to learn a language is through word and grammar learning as well as viewing media and reading. So thank you very much for the lessons Yuuta san! Also I use Renshuu to study words, kanji and Kana.
Shogo, Sora, and Yuta are a perfect match in that they promote Japan but also are astute cultural critics, so collaborations between them would fit so well . . .
On the flip side, when I've visited Japan, almost every Japanese person apologizes that their English is poor. I always want to say "your English is 100 times better than my Japanese, there's no need to apologize!"
Yeah. They make a point of being humble. Also saying that your Japanese is good could also be interpreted as words of encouragement. Japanese people do seem to like it when foreigners make an effort of speaking the language, even if they aren't fluent speakers.
Some Japanese people also be like: Greetings, I inquire of "you're" well-being? Oh my graciousness, I humbly express profound remorse, for my proficiency in the English language is exceedingly abysmal. I deem it fitting to be subjected to due retribution for my transgressions, as I have failed to attain the pinnacle of eloquence in this esteemed tongue Like, I guess this goes to all people who learns any language as a second language, we often see natives as the almighty Gods who speaks perfect whatever language you're learning, Japanese people often do the same, but since they have that culture of always "praising" others and "putting themselves down" somewhat, they feel the need to praise anyone who even attempts to speak Japanese, specially since they see it as this super difficult language, but I've had some Japanese friends speak perfect English and putting themselves down becuase they wrote "Your" instead of "You're" once
I think a big part of the frustration with 日本語上手 etc is where it comes from. If youre nowhere near/not quite fluent yet in the language it'll feel patronising or condescending. But if you're effectively a native-level speaker you can tell it comes from somewhere genuine. The level of passion and dedication it must take to reach an essentially native ability in such a different language (like Yuta has with his English), i don't think there's anything wrong with showing your appreciation for their achievements. Had yuta not put in the many thousands of hours into English that he has, this channel literally couldn't exist. There's a time and a place, and a way to do it.
My experience was never hearing that left handed compliment when the non-japanese speaker was native level fluency......confirmed it is an empty compliment. The best way to judge was if a Japanese person on the phone could not tell that you were a gaijin....
@gattaca 100%! Native level speakers dont really get jouzu'd, because it's basically assumed they were born in Japan, grew up there etc etc. Theyre seen as effectively Japanese (almost). The prejudice will be there at first, but after a few sentences are exchanged with a true native level speaker they will sorta "relax" and think "oh i can be myself around him/her" or "theyre one of us" etc. Maybe not literally, but you get the idea 😅.
@@bobfranklin2572 seems to me like it still completely contextual, like haafus getting jouzud because of their appearance (and is most of the case if they know youre a foreigner)
At some level, it's very understandable, too. Just listen to American anime dubs, and you'll realize that even getting to not-earrape pronunciation takes a bit of focus, effort and awareness. 上手 is less a compliment over the raw level of ability and more hey, you're doing an unusual thing, keep at it. Then again, foreigner experience anywhere...
@@bobfranklin2572 That's apparently not true, even extremely good Japanese speakers still get 上手'd if they're not Asian looking. It's just the equivalent of saying "your English is good," Obviously if an English speaker says that they mean it to be encouraging, etc but at the same time we mostly wouldn't say it say it to someone who was actually fluent and didn't have an accent. On the other hand though, English speakers are more used to people from all over the world speaking English and having different accents, so it's not surprising when someone speaks it well.
I think the biggest difference between 日本語上手 and "wow you're english is good" is that an english speaker would practically only ever say it once you had 1. had a conversation with them to prove you can actually speak the language well and 2. made clear that English is a 2nd language. Whereas 日本語上手 can get used after just a word or two without any care about whether you are a native speaker or not. It's this use after just "ariGAto goZAImasu" that has resulted in 日本語上手 being mocked, if Japanese people only said it to conversational people it would probably be treated the same as "wow you're english is good"
Since English is the de facto global language, there's more people who expects everyone to just speak it to a degree. Whereas Japanese is only used in Japan so it's much rarer to see a foreigner use it.
To me 日本語上手 always just felt like an inside joke in the japanese language learning community tbh. I've never taken it that seriously. Sure it can get frustrating, but it usually comes from a genuine place (or is an expression of surprise). In case of Japanese people (born and raised in Japan who speak the language fluently) who receive the "compliment" of 日本語上手, only because they don't look "stereotypically Japanese" to others, i do understand that it is an issue. あざっす！is a great response. So far i've been replying with sth to the effect of 「こんにちはしか言ってないんですけどね」
I always get 日本語上手’d in Tokyo for random ish like arigatou. I find it is rarer in Tohoku. Maybe because people are like what the heck would you be doing here in back of bush land if you could not speak Japanese? Lol. Also, I feel like if I am having really high level conversation, like talking about politics, I am more likely to get, “How long have you lived here?” instead. Went through a phase 7 or 8 years back where I really hated to get asked that. Once, also in Tokyo, I got into a deep conversation with a taxi driver and he asked me which country I was mixed with (Gosh, that sounds kinda grimy in English.) and I was so proud of the fact that my language level was so high he just assumed I was mixed. Also, slightly miffed that he assumed you can’t get good at Japanese just by hard work, but mostly proud. And let’s not forget that one time a guy accused me of “faking foreignness” for cool points online, simply because I can type kanji.
The same things happens in Germany. German people will always say „Wow your German is good“. It even happens to people who are native German speaker (for example it happened to a few Black German people) and those people are mostly pissed too. I can definitely understand if a „hafu“ or a foreigner who‘s lived in Japan for 20 years gets slightly pissed at such a comment, but the problem is that strangers can‘t possibly know your personal history. Their first reaction will be to treat you as a foreigner. In my experience, if you make clear that you‘ve been living in Japan for several years, or even have Japanese citizenship, they will treat you as equal 99% of the time. So yeah, as a foreigner in Japan, I don‘t mind „nihongo jouzu“ What I do mind is being excluded from housing just because I‘m a foreigner (literally 90% of landlords don‘t rent to foreigners), being denied entry into restaurants, bars and shops because I‘m a foreigner, getting discriminated on the job market due to race or nationality, etc. There are so much more worse things out there than nihongo jouzu happening in Japan everyday, that I‘m really surprised to see so many people worked up about it. In my opinion they should spend their energy combating real racial discrimination that affects a lot of foreigners in Japan.
A little context from an American: we have a LOT of immigrants and people who's parents or grandparents were immigrants. During WWII, a lot of Japanese people got moved around into new communities for... pretty bad reasons. But as a result, I think a lot of places started to see Japanese or other asian families move in for the first time. Some of them might have had bad english, but their children usually didn't, because those kids went to American schools and learned English like everyone else did. Even still, many of those kids had to grow up in a place that wasn't used to seeing Asian people around, and despite the fact that they spoke English their whole lives, people would still tell them "Your English is so good!" I remember growing up, my parents would tell me "don't say their English is good, that's rude!" Because it *was* rude. The only reason those people ever had a comment on their language skills was because they looked different than all the irish/polish/other European families that got here first. It makes them feel like they're not American, which isn't fair because if they can't be true Americans, then almost none of us should be either. So, when Americans go to Japan, especially if they go there to live permanently, they want to feel like they are Japanese, just like how their (probably) European families got to feel like they were Americans. Of course, even that probably didn't happen until a few generations got settled in. It's not like the Irish or the Polish have had a completely worry-free time moving in here either. So I think, in a sense, many people feel offended by getting jouzu'd because they learned that it is offensive to tell people in America that their English is good, because you can't assume everyone who doesn't look European of African isn't from here. I'm not really sure how I would feel if I moved to Japan and was still getting Jouzu'd 50 years later. I think I would probably feel kinda bad about it. Of course, if I was only visiting Japan, I would probably just be happy to hear people can understand my horrible Japanese. If I had to pick between getting jouzu'd my whole life vs never getting jouzu'd ever, I think I would probably pick never getting jouzu'd ever.
After years of living in Japan, I pretend that they are sincered and I would simply reply with thanks. And as a persiin growing in non-english speaking country, I also often got the same expression that "my english is good"
Whenever I said something in my Japanese classes, my sensei always said すばらしい and it was just his way to encourage me and my classmates. So I think teachers and native speakers use those phrases as a means to motivate you to keep learning.
My Japanese isn’t great but being able to communicate is the core of language. If you comprehend and can get your point across you will naturally improve overtime.
Interesting that many Japanese people underestimate Japan’s cultural soft power. But it makes sense. To me it’s so obvious how iconic Japan is because it’s a major cultural force that is easily assessable but not “western”. But if you’re Japanese, the pop culture probably just feels mundane too some extent.
I've lived here for 7 years now and I didn't realise how many things had become just normal to me until I met a person who had recently arrived and told me how they were blown away by the "quality" of convenience store food. Things really don't feel special when you see them all the time.
The amount of times East Asia (in general) gets excited to see a mention of them in the west... well as an American, they have no idea how popular it is! As an Asian person I also underestimate it too because a lot of the things they consider Asia to be "exotic" is their norm (though I guess I'm pretty white-washed myself and get excited looking at how cool Japan can seem to me). Otaku and weeb culture are something in the same with an anime-obsession but otaku culture is generally frowned upon for being overzealous and weeb culture is almost fetish-y.
That's prob true. In latam, Japanese media/food/style is very popular and anyone from latam visiting Japan would find it to be amazing. In contrast the Japanese don't seem to care for a lot of their own things, which is sad.
The only time I went to Japan, I spent 6 days in Kyoto. Maybe because I started with すみません、私の日本語下手です and continued in broken japanese english mixture, I was not jouzued... But one elderly guy at the ticketing counter of Nijou castle (who could speak great english) encouraged me saying that my 発音 was great... and it felt like it was very sincere. I am in the "people are overreacting" team after that.
I've lived in Osaka for almost 6 months and am probably similar level to what you described and I'm getting by mostly in broken Japanese with not much English and I haven't been Jouzu'd one time so I think this idea that people say it to you when you have poor Japanese isn't that true.
I love getting "日本語うまい" and joking with them "美味しいですね" I know it's a different "umai" and they almost always look a little taken aback until they realise I know what I'm saying and laugh with me.
I mean as a French person i can of do the same thing with foreigners that learn French, i feel like it's encouraging to have your language ability complimented. So when my japanese is complimented by Japanese people i kind of get the reasonning and i know it comes from a good place so i really don't mind.
Speaking as an アメリカ人 from Ohio with a degree in 言語学 and six months of 留学 experience at Chubu Dai, I found this video really enjoyable and thought-provoking. I'm assuming azassu is a shortened form of ありがとうございます? I wish I had known that back when I was in Japan. Also, I want to tell you two stories. One is my favorite time getting nihongo jouzu'd, the other is my least favorite time. I'll start with my least favorite time, cause it's a shorter story. There was a particular building in Chubu Dai where all the exchange students would have classes, and one day, I met a man in a suit on the elevator on my way up to class. I had never met him before, so we said hello, and he nihongo jouzu'd me. This was the only time in the entire six months I was over there that anyone saying that to me bothered me, and what bothered me about it was just... like.. we're in the place where the exchange students have classes in Japanese, dude. If we were out on the street somewhere and he was surprised by my おはようございます, that would maybe be one thing, but I felt like the guy should've known that, in this building, he'd be encountering people who could speak Japanese. But in fairness, there were also native students taking classes on other floors there, so maybe he just never went up to the top floor for anything and always did his job or whatever on the other floors? I don't know. That and the fact that I was in a closed elevator with him (so, an enclosed space with no way to leave) when he said it, I think that might've also been a little part of it too. Ok, so my favorite story: There was a 旅館 we went to one time, and we were told that there would be a lot of native students there who were going on their own for their own reasons, but that we might get a chance to talk to some of them at meals. And it's worth noting that part of the study abroad program was taking classes in America before we even got on the plane about what to expect, so I think most of us (or maybe all of us) knew about things like 本音 and 建前 and about how, when someone gives you a compliment in Japan, you're supposed to deny in twice before accepting it the third time. So, I was at this long table in this ryokan, having breakfast, and there was this girl sitting across from me I'd never met before. We introduced ourselves and she jouzu'd me, but I denied it, and after I denied it, she said, 本当に。。。 in a very soft tone, and just from the tone and the look in her eyes as she said it, I felt like she understood that I knew the cultural scripts and like, in that moment, her compliment became more sincere than it had been, although I don't think it was that insincere to begin with. It was a genuine compliment that then became more genuine when I played along with the cultural expectations. I found your idea that nihongo jouzu is an exclamation rather than an actual compliment (sincere or otherwise) to be something I hadn't considered before, and, at least in my experience, I could see it being the case. I think a lot of the students I studied with just thought it was tatemae rather than honne, and like that alone doesn't necessarily mean it's insincere, because you can sincerely be trying to follow the steps you know, and that doesn't need to mean there's anything mean or insincere about doing so. But I definitely understand why some people might not like hearing it too. Personally, I don't mind it though. Thanks for the video.
Oh, I almost forgot! I mentioned that I'm from Ohio cause I wanna give you an idea of what my English is like when I say that, honestly, there have been times when even though I've lived in America my whole life (apart from those six months), my ears might still sometimes have trouble understanding the sounds other English speakers make when they speak, particularly if they happen to have a really thick accent from New York and/or New Jersey. It's very, very rare, but it does happen. Usually it'll click what they said after a moment or two, so it's a very slight effect, but I wouldn't feel bad for not knowing what they said if I were you.
Im pretty sure あざっす is the opposite of what you said. He said it's like thank you but in a colloquial way, which is ordinary/informal. i might be misunderstanding what you said though.
@@flash93 it is a shortened form of ありがとうございます like op suspected it was. The extreme shortening/slurring of it is exactly what makes it casual/colloquial. But it does come from the "full version"
@@flash93 I'm saying it sounds like a shortened (not informal) version of a very formal saying. ありがとうございます would be very formal, ですね, but I also notice that there is some overlap in terms of what sounds are used. I was wondering where あざっす came from and I imagine it's probably something like A-rigatougo-ZA-ima-SU, or a-za-ssu for short? With the small tsu being a product of dropping the other kana. That's just what came to mind, so I could be wrong, but I think it would be really neat if that were where it came from.
Its that Honne vs. Tatamae culture of Japan that makes foreigners nervous about any complement they get. 日本語上手 is just one that particularly sets off those alarms where we think Japanese speakers aren't being sincere but just trying to be nice. You might hear westerners say something similar to you, but most westerners are much more honest and open- there's rarely confusion on genuineness (which is a blessing and a curse).
This is probably the same everywhere in East Asia. I live in China (as a white man) and while it doesn't happen in all or even the majority of interactions, getting told "wow, your Chinese is so good!" or "your pronunciation is so 標準 (standard)!" or sometimes even "your Chinese is better than mine!" happens frequently enough that it's pretty clear: a) Chinese people have *extremely* low expectations for "foreigners", and b) it doesn't matter how hard you try, you will *never* be considered Chinese. And likewise, even if you naturalize, if you aren't ethnically East Asian, you will not be considered a Japanese person; you will be considered a foreigner with a Japanese passport. I would imagine similar things happen a lot less in countries with large and racially diverse immigrant populations, like the US or Germany, but I can't confirm that personally. I have sadly heard of the same thing happening to e.g. Asian-Americans.
Well actually the opposite happens in countries like US. You could speak English completely fluently but if you have certain accents you'll still be mocked for your English and treated like your English is garbage. And it absolutely does happen that non-White people in Germany and US are treated as not being actual Germans or Americans. Happens all the time.
The concept of 日本語上手ですね comes from two driving factors. Firstly, Japan is super homogeneous, less than 2% of the population are international residents so unless you're in a major city, there's a good chance that the people saying it have never seen a foreigner outside of TV or movies, many of us probably overlook this detail but there are a lot of cities in Japan and only a handful of those are ones visited or inhabited by Foreigners. Secondly, Japanese culture is a super polite culture (pretty sure it's actually recorded as being the politest culture followed by British culture. Though the way politeness is used is very different). Japanese people prefer to save face of themselves and others, so instead of telling you you're bad they'd rather tell you that you're good to encourage you to keep learning. Though, there are probably those who have ill intentions when they say it. However, after a while of being in Japan and interacting with Japanese people it usually goes away. Personally, I did get it when I first moved but I'd always say it's not good and I need more practice (that's still the case) but now I only get it from my teacher after we free-talk or if I struggle and seem deflated to encourage me to keep trying. Though, I get why people feel it's demeaning in nature. Especially if you're aware you make/made a mistake when receiving 日本語上手ですね, it can be frustrating in those moments but the truth is you're probably frustrated with yourself. Also, another difficult thing is finding someone who's not afraid to tell you that you're wrong or making mistakes and teach you a more natural way of speaking in Japan/Japanese unless you actively ask. I'd say that it's actually an obstacle in the cultural and language barrier that makes making friends difficult. Luckily, my coworker always let's me know if I make a mistake, sometimes she's direct, sometimes she'll model a more natural sentence or she'll subtly say "I understand your Japanese, don't worry. I know what you mean." 🤣
Great series of how anime characters speak Japanese. Please do Itsuki Nakano from the quintessential quintuplets or any or all the 7 main characters in TQQ. How they speak Japanese I believe is very important to understanding the plot eg the honorifics, the lost in translation stuff (eg when they say things like zurui, hatsukoi, uso, tachi, fukuzatsu Vs taihen, mote etc that are removed from the dub). I compiled a lot of the lost in translation stuff in r/gotoubun Something to consider about Itsuki: The Quintessential Quintuplets' character types are: Ichika - Onee-san / ara ara, Nino - tsundere, miku - kuudere / dandere, Yotsuba - genki Itsuki - ?? - Tsundere like Nino? - Eat-suki? - Imouto? - Someone who speaks keigo to their siblings, to Fuutarou and to Raiha and to everyone basically? Actually, the main thing I learned from Yuta's videos that keigo is basically just desu, masu & their variations. I swear when I learned elementary Japanese in bachelor's (foreign language classes are required in universities in the Philippines) we were never even taught the word keigo. All this time I had no idea Itsuki was the only quint and actually only main character who was talking keigo to EVERYONE. Anyway, I have a theory as to what Itsuki's type is, but you're not gonna like it... For more japanese stuff re TQQ, see r/gotoubun r/itsuesugi r/raitsuki etc Also: ubmu3x ubmu3x ubmu3x ubmu3x ubmu3x ubmu3x
@@user-yc3fw6vq5n thanks. I could be wrong, but I really don't think I am. I really believe desu and masu were just used as if they are correct. That was 2012. But I knew already in 2008 from death note there's watashi wa L desu Vs boku ga (wa?) Kira da. But I never really thought about desu Vs da. 1 - But yeah da is just non-keigo version of desu right? 2 - I gotta check the genki book to be sure. Is it in genki in the 1st 5 chapters? 10 chapters? The whole genki 1 book?
I could definitely see that it would get annoying for someone who's been in Japan for a long time, or especially all their life. But as a novice, I'll take all the compliments I can get 😅
I also appreciate how you are able to see both sides of the story and share it with us. Some of the comments miss your point as they try to swear sincerity in complimenting your English.
Japan has so much to offer to the world.. where do we even start with that. As for Nihongo Jouzu why get offended if: 1. You're a newbie in Nihongo it's good to be appreciated since it would boost your confidence 2. You've lived long in Japan and already a pro in Nihongo it's great to be said Jouzu since the compliment is sincere and genuine
I adore Japan. I love the culture and compared to Canada (where I’m from), it’s quite interesting. I met a Japanese girl in a store and we were talking back and forth. She was curious and how long I’ve studied Japanese (in Japanese). I explained in Japanese how I love the culture, language and how different it is from English. It’s been 11 years for me. Talking to another person in a different language is amazing. I do have a learning disorder and autism. So, it takes me awhile to learn stuff but worth it.
Even if it took 11years you've learned something many (most?) people don't in their whole lives. Hope you get to visit Japan one day (if you haven't already!)
Hey you managed to get the task done so that's great! buddy there's no age limit to learning so as long as you're enjoying it, take as much time as you need. By the way could we say that... after all these years of hard training... you finally became... 日本語上手なのか？
I rarely hear 日本語上手。But definitely never feel patronized when I do, and always feels nice. Usually it's "where did you learn Japanese" or "how long have you been in Okinawa". Really, i just know a good amount of phrases and ok pronunciation.
It's a compliment, it can be a mixture of surprise and pleasure, and then it can be as pleasantries, friendliness, conversation starter so it's not too tense and fluid, or it's even used as a "relief" at the start of a conversation, as a distraction insert to make it more relaxed when continuing the conversation. So, it's not a problem at all, maybe just reply with "Really? Thank you," "Ah, no-no I'm still learning," or just smile in a friendly way, etc. It can happens anywhere, especially in countries where many ethnic groups visit each other (like in Indonesia with hundreds of ethnic groups); When there are people from other tribes who speak their language (albeit a little), they will rejoice and praise; Often the atmosphere turns fluid like a "child;" If he/she is older he/she can even get along instantly and see us as their "family." The nature of an Eastern person who likes to be suddenly cheerful and "a bit" childish, maybe that is not understood by people from European and surrounding cultures, which can be very "serious" [or] changed "brutal" (unable to limit him/herself anymore, "act on your own," when he/she feels that he/she is "free"). True Hospitality is a good thing, although it is also dangerous to meet evil and cunning strangers, history has proven it (can turn into betrayal, used, even then "occupation," then the society was destroyed); That's why it's understandable, why it is forbidden for Russians to smile at foreigners (without sufficient reasons, for example: knowing well each other), so much so that it becomes a culture; A stranger who suddenly smiled at Russian for no good reason or even without any apparent reason would be seen as suspicious, weird, perhaps even dangerous and harboring certain manipulative intentions -- although basically, like other humans they can also be friendly and very kind; It is related to experience, history, and how their community survives, span a long time.
I like what the person at 7:46 said about 日本語ですね being a set phrase with an often expected or culturally appropriate response being いえいえまだまだですよ！ As say an American English speaker, we understand the actual meaning of the phrases and take them at face value or read way too much into them because we're coming at it from our cultural perspective. But if it's just a set phrase then I see it being no different than the phrase "How are you?" with the set reply being "Good good. How about you?" All my Japanese friends (and I'm sure friends from other countries) get so hung up on this phrase and ask how they should respond even though in their head they might know they can just say "I'm good" and move on. It doesn't vibe with them culturally because that's not how they start conversations with people, so they start overthinking it. Even if they get used to responding in a culturally appropriate way, it probably still feels off internally because they may still be asking themselves "what if I'm not ok, what am I supposed to say then? It feels like I'm lying if I say 'I'm good.'" So I'd say once you understand why people often say it, don't think about it too much more than that. When you start responding in a culturally appropriate way, don't get too hung up on that internal voice saying "this doesn't feel right" and just remember this set phrase is no different than many others we have like "how are you?" Even when we do pick this phrase apart and think about why we say it, what we could say differently since it feels ingenuine as a question if it's basically just used as "hello," we still use it in every interaction because it's the smooth way for us to interact in our culture and we don't give it a second thought. We gotta approach other set phrases in the same way. Imagine an atheist getting hung up on the many greetings that exist in Hebrew or Arabic just because they don't believe in God. There's no need for them to think too deeply about it if it's just used effectively the same way our many greetings our used.
Well, Japaneese is in that spot where quite a few people learn it, but not quite as many visit and speak with Japaneese people, so I can understand why they'd be considering it a nice thing to say to foreigners who bothered. I'd propably do the same when meeting some obvious foreigner speaking decent Polish, followed up by 'how long have you lived here?' as a kind of normal small talk thing. I got the same a couple times in Germany when trying to speak German, can't say how I'll react to it thirty years from now, but so far it feels like a nice acknowledgment of the effort put into learning.
I've been living in Japan for 17 years, so yeah I've heard it a few times. I understand your points, Yuta. And as a Japanese person you may know the intention much better than I do. But in my experience, it is just a nice polite encouraging thing, so I would give my support to that view. In my experience it seems to be used more often to people who are not good at Japanese, just as an encouragement. As an English teacher, I understand that perfectly. Being as encouraging as possible to beginners just seems like a nice thing to do. That said, some of the negative things you suggest are definitely out there and may have something to do with it. Oh and I agree with you. English pronunciation is like a gazillion times harder for Japanese people than Japanese is to English speakers. The mora system and fewer sounds of Japanese make it an uphill battle for Japanese learners of English. Great video!
ive never gotten the "you speak good japanese" but ive been on the sidelines while its happened, and with other languages too. the funniest was probably someone confusing mandarin and vietnamese so telling my friend "you speak good mandarin" when completely different language (but shared root language)
To me, "nihongo jouzu!" sounds like "wow, we thought other cultures didn't care about us at all! thank you for taking interest in our culture and language!", so I'll never get mad when someone says it to me, no matter how repetitive it may get. People need to understand that it is not said with patronizing intention. They're getting offended because they want to be offended.
I have been living in Japan for a month now and have been studying for just over a year and a half. I have been using as much Japanese as I can in every situation from going to the immigration centre, ordering food and casually speaking to my Japanese friends and colleagues. The only person to 日本語上手 me so far is the postman because I answered the door with はい〜. I really don’t think it happens as often people think.
I like the brevity and low formality of あざっす as you said. I don’t understand the humor behind it, but I like how it communicates ones feelings about the subject matter pretty efficiently and effectively but in a subtle manner. (Ie: you might be pleasantly surprised, but I don’t make too much of it)
i only really remember one time where someone would say 日本語上手ですね and that was in my hometown after i explained to two tourists that the train they were on would be split and only the rear part would go to the airport. i had brusquely asked them if they were on the way to the airport and then explained they had to change to the rear part eventually (i figure it's easy to miss or get confused when you're not a local, even if you do understand the languages the announcements are in) and the 日本語上手ですね wasn't even said to me but to the other tourist after our conversation had ended. which makes me think like it was pretty much a "oh, what a fortunate coincidence that someone who speaks our language helped us out so we don't get lost" other than that it was usually more fitted to the situation, like when someone found it cool that i knew the expression ◯◯によると (which probably sounds a bit bookish but i know they still just found it lowkey impressive) or when they found it cute that i knew the kanji 鴨. and yeah, part of being perceived as cute is being perceived as childlike, but that's just how japanese culture rolls. nothing to feel dimished by as a person. another aspect to this whole topic is that i could see how some learners (*•coughs•* weebs *•coughs•*) may think being jōzued automatically means their japanese is just soooo good when it really isn't, and i assume more diligent learners then went to explain that it doesn't (necessarily) mean it's good and got carried away inventing the "they are actually making fun of you" notion. and that then became it's own narrative which partially informs why people get so offended. then again, if you hear it all the time i see how it gets tiring. and of course situations like the one the half-japanese told about their friend are kind of disheartening. in the end, i say it's best to just accept that it has become a set phrase and not make too much of it. and of course the suggested あざっす will shut up at least the person you're talking to at that moment.. you'll still "risk" being jōzued by the very next stranger you have to interact with, so swallowing one's pride at least a bit is a good habit to acquire.
I think the reason you get so "many" compliments for your 英語 is, because it truly IS amazing AND people know what most other Japanese people speak like, which puts an extra feeling of achievement and uniqueness to it. :)
Yeah it's not the same as someone like me just saying arigatogozaimasu ありがとうございます He can actually speak the language (and uses it in the way that a native would) where as I know a few phrases and can recognize a handful of kanji (at best a handful lol)
I can definitely say this happens everywhere. I get the equivalent in German pretty often, along with all the things you mentioned (for example disbelief that anyone would be interested in learning German). It is tiring to be sure. But I don't find it as annoying as something older people tend to do where they speak extra clearly and slowly to me even though they know I have been living in Germany for over a decade speaking essentially German exclusively.
I definitely feel you here. It's one thing being surprised that someone can say a few words or phrases. But Yuta is probably better at English than the average native speaker. He can Manipulate the language, organise and precisely express his exact thoughts, he has excellent word/phrase selection, and can say stuff like "Jouzu'd" the way a native would. Okay, his accent aint perfect, but Yuta is in the literal top 0.1% of Japanese adults who've learned English. I don't think showing appreciation of top-tier accomplishments is anything like an 英語上手 style comment.
It's like whenever I think about my experience in Japan and why social interactions and conversations went the way the did, Yuta is always here to explain the context and mechanics of it all even though he wasn't physically there when it happened. Thank you for validating this super controversial take amongst a small population in Japan. You're really doing good work here.
You just set in motion thousands of awkward conversations with that bit of advice you gave at the end. Can't wait to hear what kind of reactions people got.
So on a recent trip to Japan, my black friend got jouzu'd for literally just saying "mizu" in an American accent at a restaurant. My goal, on the other hand, was to interact as much as possible without getting jouzu'd once, which turned out to be pretty easy as an ethnic Chinese. Actually, I had a different problem, since my pronunciation is pretty good and I look the part - it'd often be a few sentences of normal interaction but then I run out of vocabulary, and then people just get confused and aren't sure whether I'm a foreigner whose Japanese is decent, or if I'm Japanese but stupid.
Haha 笑 I find it weird that Japanese, Koreans and Chinese struggle to tell each other apart, just like Westerners can't tell Asians apart, in general. Having watched 바둑TV and 囲碁 channels on TH-cam for a while, to me it's often quite easy to tell you all apart from looks and body language.
@@Brave_Pirate No, こちらこそ is a set phrase, it means "it's I who should say that". I'm not sure if you can use そちらこそ to mean "no it's you who is 上手" in this case, it sounds kind of unnatural to me. Generally こちらこそ comes as a set with ありがとうございます
@@chrisff1989 Just so you know, そちらこそ/そっちこそ is a set phrase just like こちらこそ/こっちこそ, albeit less common. It really depends on the message you want to send with your reply. For me, the aim is to throw off the speaker who initially complimented me with some irony. For instance... If a Japanese person says "日本語上手 (your Japanese is good)" to me, I can reply, ありがとうございます。こちらこそ。to imply I also think MY Japanese is good. or I can reply, ありがとうございます。そちらこそ。to say "YOU'RE the one whose Japanese is good." Of course his/her Japanese would be better because he/she is a native speaker, but that's the joke. こちらこそ to mean "I'm the one who should be saying that" is correct, but only one of several different meanings the phrase can be used. It can also mean, "I'm the one who is/should be/thinks..." tl;dr What you said is right, but what I initially suggested isn't necessarily wrong depending on context.
9:40 I once had an involvement with a lovely, beaufitul lady here where I live. And I'm such a devout Catholic Christian that anyone meeting me would instantly recognise my religion is the absolute priority in my life, above absolutely everything else. But this girl would ask me time and time again 'what was your religion again?' everytime we met, which ended up making her seem dumb and distespectful to me, so I ghosted her.
You can use almost any word (including foreign words and even people's names) as a colloquial verb in english. As an ESL, it's one of my favorite features of the language (I guess you can sort of do the same in japanese with する, although not as dynamically in my experience).
Azassu! xD Arigatou gozaimasu I always find it funny how contracted some stuff can become in Japanese... Also, you can always answer with a tongue twister...
I feel like I do not get jouzu’d in French, Spanish and Portuguese. I do often get, “Where are you from?” Or some assumption about it. In Colombia, people often asked if I was from San Andres and in Martinique, people thought I was from Quebec. I consider that a compliment. “You speak well, but your accent is different from ours.”
I get it a lot here in the USA because I am learning Japanese through work, and I try to talk to the Japanese staff (people on rotation from our parent company). I know their intention is to encourage me and help correct me if I make a mistake. In turn, I help them with their English.😊
Don't worry, once you become conversational, you won't get it much anymore. I've lived in Japan for three months now since coming back here, and the only two times I got jouzu'd were 1) when I came across a child and his father in a hiking trail. The kid greeted me, I did the same back, and the dad was like おお、日本語上手ですね to the kid. 2) when I helped my brother, who was visiting me, to buy ointment for a burn at a pharmacy. And that was a genuine compliment, the woman working the register said she would have been screwed if I wasn't there to speak Japanese since she couldn't speak English.
To be fair to Sora: At least in my memory, Japan only got really popular in the last 10 to 15 years, most likely due to the people who grew up with Japanese video games becoming adults. (Ok, the second cohort who grew up with them became adult, making it about 2 to 3 cohorts) I really can't remember a Japan hype from the 90s or the 2000s (at the time, the US was the most popular country) It's probably due to cultural power that Japan is now a pretty popular country, while the US is somewhat stagnateing in regards of cultural output. And from what I hear from some local Japanese people (in Germany), there are still a lot of people who mix up China and Japan on the regular. A lot has changed, but some things didn't.
On a related note, a Japanese woman in NYC responded "sugoi!" when I spoke to her in Japanese. "Sugoi!" translates to "Amazing!" in English, but I have a feeling it doesn't mean quite the same thing. I hear 'sugoi' n Japanese more often than "amazing" in English. When I say something is amazing, I really mean it as an extreme superlative. So if I write 'amazing' and a Japanese person uses the google translate to 'sugoi', I think there isn't a perfect communication. I'd like to know what Japanese word is closer in meaning to 'amazing' in the sense of a man with spider powers walking upside down on the ceiling. You see what I'm saying? If a Japanese person saw a man walking upside down on the ceiling, what word would they use? Somehow, I don't think 'sugoi' is that word. If I saw a monkey playing chess, I would say "that's amazing!" But I really wouldn't say "that's amazing!" to a foreigner speaking English -- that could only be interpreted as an insult. But I'm 100% certain my Japanese friend didn't mean "look at the talking monkey!" when she said "sugoi!"
If I go to Japan and get told this, that probably makes me happy, because I'm on beginner level and lack confidence. But I understand the reason why some people may be bothered by it. I remember a Trash Taste episode where it was mentioned. The only time I got similar reaction was when a Japanese woman visited our home (a small town in Serbia) and I casually started singing a One Piece opening. (Well, my dad already told her about me knowing Japanese as he likes to brag.) That felt good, because I got confident at pronounciation. By the way, it was funny when she asked how to say water in Hungarian, because "mizu" and "víz" sounds very similar.
I wouldn't be upset. I will never be Japanese. I know it and Japanese people know it. And there's nothing wrong with that. If I could go to Japan and not make an ass of myself, but leave Japanese people I meet with a good and respectable impression in their country, then that would be rewarding enough.
I too was surprised to learn how much English is in Japanese and that they learn it in school. I'd watch an anime or hear a Japanese song and occasionally someone just uses an English phrase, which I thought was weird. I understand English is an important language in the world, but I'm from a country where learning another language is just not necessary and we don't really bother. I guess I kind of assumed that people in Japan wouldn't bother, people in Germany wouldn't bother, people in Norway wouldn't bother, etc.
6:07 Awesome content! 😊 They say that when foreigners are learning English from the TV, they prefer watching Newscasters, because they can understand them easier than anything else. Are there any resources similar to this in Japanese? Or maybe a resource that jokingly sarcastically overemphasizes the Japanese pitch and tonality?… let me explain. Another reason for this request is because as a native English speaking American, learning Spanish and French, I found that doing a “Jim Carey” when speaking the language, I would get inquiries like, “Wow, Are you from the Dominican Republic? You have a strong accent”, or “You must be from Quebec, because you’re nailing their emphasis on the ‘r’!” Or when I micmic the Looney Tunes character, Pepé Le Pew, people say that I must of studied in Paris. Have you made a video on the different accents/dialects between Osaka, Kyoto, Okinawa and Tokyo? Have you made a video on new modern Japanese idioms, sayings, quotes, and ancient proverbs and particles? Thank you so much for all of your help. ❤
I feel weirdly called out even though I'm german. It's pretty common to compliment people even if they only know a single word. It's really an appreciation for putting in the effort and meant to be encouraging. Plus, it may not seem like a big deal, but most tourists don't bother to learn "hello", "bye", "thank you", "you're welcome". Same with residents, there are people living decades in Germany without being to speak a single word. I'm sure it's similar in Japan. These things might be "normal" in the language learing community / for people who are interested in other cultures, but it really isn't in the grand scheme of things.
Guilty I was stationed there for 2 years didn't learn a lick of a German looking back it was probably one of the bigger mistakes Ive made. some MINOR defe se I was right next to an America ized city (Kaiserslautern) so wasn't really any need to learn
I simply can't find 日本語上手ですね good in any context. If the person I'm speaking too really did find my speech so comprehensible, they'd continue the conversation - Isn't that the point of language, to communicate? - instead of halting the flow of the topic to a dead halt with left field "compliment."
i've been studying japanese quite internsively for over two years, and have received uncountable amounts of 日本語お上手ですね in my time of learning it. I've researched and trained as well as experimented with different ways of countering this technique, and right now i've settled on そちらも to confuse their brain as well as catch them off guard, then finish them with the move どこで 日本語を勉強したんですか? this technique works wonders with wild 日本人 that appears and i would say is a super effective move that can OHKO them !
same here...but I would lay it on thick with politeness to get my point across..."Homegoroshi" concept that proves Japanese don't like being complimented for efforts they know are inferior..... "日本語お上手" is a dig...they know it.
To be honest, when I went to Japan for five weeks, I didn't get nihongo jouzu once. The only time I heard it was in a Karaoke bar, there were a bunch of Japanese businessmen and their boss and one of my friends, who wasn't as proficient in Japanese as me tried talking to them. He basically just said utter nonsense, it was hard for me to keep myself from breaking out in a laughing fit, then the boss went "nihongo jouzu" to him which finally broke me. That was a great evening.
I've been guilty of this crap too, in a way. I've asked non-native English speakers about where or how they learned English out of curiosity. Some people learn it at home from an English speaking parent but predominantly speak another language, others learned it after emigrating as a non-English speaker, most learn in school. I sometimes ask about what language they think in and I've heard some interesting answers. There are some words or phrases that are naturally simpler or exclusive to different languages so when people are highly fluent in two or more languages they sometimes switch seamlessly mid-thought between languages. Some people who have learned another language think in different languages depending on the setting, eg. thinking in English at work but in their native language at all other times. It's interesting to me but I can see how my questions about it could have put people on the spot as if I were evaluating them or something. From what I've observed though a lot of non-native English speakers who have learned formally have a stronger grasp of grammar and frequently a more articulate vocabulary since they don't rely on an intuitive familiarity that is loaded with slang and colloquialisms ( that a lot of people don't even use correctly), they've also learned these rules more recently than a lot of native speakers, and were more likely to have actually been paying attention when the rules were being taught unlike presumptuous native speakers who regard their understanding as complete while not even understanding the basics of syntax. I find this difference is most observable in written English, where I've frequently noticed non-native speakers using much more deliberate language with a much clearer meaning than a lot of native speakers with sloppy grammar. I think a lot of the time the offense can come from the presumption of the native speaker that they have something to impart or that they're in a position to even access the fluency of a non-native speaker, there's a very real chance somebody recently studying your language understands it even better than you do, as I've embarrassingly discovered on occasion.
In regards to your own english speaking skills, Yuta. I think it may be a result of the common perception that people outside of Japan don't consider the Japanese in general to be very proficient english speakers. And it's probably not an unwarranted stereotype since many Japanese people themselves say that english education in Japan isn't all that great. For example, as a Swede, when I talk to people from Anglophone countries, nobody really remarks upon my english speech at all. Most likely because Sweden has an international reputation for being a country of proficient english speakers with only a very small degree of noticeable accent.
It's not just that westerners don't expect Japanese to be good at English, it's that we don'tsee Japanese people as that interested or knowledgeable about anything outside of Japan. It's funny that Japanese see the west as generally advanced, because people in the west see Japan as advanced in technology with things like magnet propelled trains, so don't see themselves as ahead and advanced compared to Japan at all except in one thing, worldiness and certain social issues like racism. We in the west generally don't think Japanese are that interested in world affairs or other countries. We kind of see them like bush people with technology more advancedthan us. In fact I won't be surprised if Yuta also gets the, they are Japanese, but to me your not Japanese, you're Yuta, attitudes, since an actual Japanese can't be knowledgeable about how the rest of the world outside Japan works So in a sense westerners kind of expect a secluded country like Japan to be racist, and maybe see as a way of saying lokk how lucky we are to not be so secluded, however since it's seen more as due to Japanese just generally being ignorant moreso than active hate, we see Japan as one of us due to being technologically as advanced as us and having democratic freedoms.
I always wondered why Nordic people speak English like a native, I thought maybe Nordic languages must be easy for English speakers to learn too. Nordic people are the literal embodiment of 英語上手. In fact as an adolescent I considered, and still consider now even though I'm 24, 囲碁陰性 now 囲碁棋士 Antti Törmänen's English as Superior to my own and I'm English.
@@user-yc3fw6vq5n I believe Nordic countries get lots of english language media from an early age. They are both exposed to huge amounts of it, and are interested enough in it to learn it. Whereas Germany dubs everything, for example.
@@stormveil There's something to that. At least for me. If you want to understand what's going on in a video game you're forced to learn english, because it's very rare for any games to be dubbed here. Then there's the fact that movies from abroad are also almost never dubbed but always subtitled. Having movies subtitled really helps a lot when trying to learn english.
I fully agree. I came to much the same conclusion when I lived in Japan. Some combination of ignorance, low national self esteem (which is VERY real btw), and good intentions. Also, on the off chance anyone reads this, Japan doesn't really do sarcasm. It just isn't a part of the language the way it is in English.
Clarifying: they have it. But it isn't a prominent feature of the language. Like swear words? Those words exist, but aren't really part of the colloquial language diet of most people.
I definitely felt like I was getting talked down to because I'm no were close to fluent in Japanese and I also knew Japanese people didn't intend to offend me at all when the phrase 日本語上手 was used to me, but I truly understood the Japanese perspective after my American friend said: "I would be pretty shocked if a black man started speaking Japanese too." It all made sense XD
I had an embarrassing moment in Japan when I got 日本語が上手い instead of 日本語上手 and I didn't know what 上手い meant yet. It felt really weird to be getting a compliment about my Japanese ability but not even understanding the compliment!
Excellent video as always. However, Id consider Japanese just as hard for english speakers as english is for native Japanese speakers. It is considered a Category IV language for english speakers. Also, 日本語上手 can get very tiring hearing it 20 times in a day. If a Japanese person comes to America and ask for water I'm not going to say wow your english is SOOO GOOD! Now if that person spends a whole conversation talking, then a compliment is likely given. Hell, I've been to Japan so many times and even saying こんにちは with out a foreign "accent" has gotten me a 日本語上手 it's like really for one word?
I also think areas matter too. In countrysides, it is more likely to get "nihongo jouzu-ed" since native Japanese in countryside areas don't usually see much foreigners in the first place, not to mention meeting foreigners who speak decent Japanese.
I only know a relatively small number of Japanese words and phrases, and I have a hard time understanding more complicated sentences. I also can't really string any sentences together myself for the most part without using a tool for assistance. (Though I do think my pronunciation is generally pretty good.) On the 9 day trip I just took to Japan I got 日本語上手'd at least 4 times. The only one I felt was at all sincere was when it came from one of the hotel staff. I of course responded "いいえいいえ" and she followed up saying "but your pronunciation is very good." It didn't feel necessarily patronizing when anyone else said it, but I don't think they really believed it to be true.
To be honest, you know your language is good, when native speaker doesn't compliment it. If they compliment it, they see your language is not native and they want to encourage you. If they don't compliment it, it probably means you are so fluent they didn't realize you are non native speaker :D
I'm fluent and if I'm not doing something like language exchange online (I quit this cuz it was too annoying lol) I can pretend to be Japanese (in chat rooms or vr chat or other things) and they won't mention about my language ability at all and we generally just talk normally. But in real life, they judge by appearance so if you're not Asian, you will get jyouzu'd no matter how good you are. Even someone famous like Dogen who has a pronunciation better than most native speakers will get a jyouzu on occasions randomly if he goes somewhere where they don't know him already.
Saying “ they got Nihongo Jozued” is some serious good American English slang. Sounds like something my Northern California friends would say. Adding “ed” to the end of certain words “ we got suckered” “ we got freaked”
Learn Japanese with Yuta: bit.ly/3J9ctxK
Great series of how anime characters speak Japanese. Please do Itsuki Nakano from the quintessential quintuplets or any or all the 7 main characters in TQQ. How they speak Japanese I believe is very important to understanding the plot eg the honorifics, the lost in translation stuff (eg when they say things like zurui, hatsukoi, uso, tachi, fukuzatsu Vs taihen, mote etc that are removed from the dub). I compiled a lot of the lost in translation stuff in r/gotoubun
Something to consider about Itsuki:
The Quintessential Quintuplets' character types are:
Ichika - Onee-san / ara ara,
Nino - tsundere,
miku - kuudere / dandere,
Yotsuba - genki
Itsuki - ??
- Tsundere like Nino?
- Eat-suki?
- Imouto?
- Someone who speaks keigo to their siblings, to Fuutarou and to Raiha and to everyone basically?
Actually, the main thing I learned from Yuta's videos that keigo is basically just desu, masu & their variations.
I swear when I learned elementary Japanese in bachelor's (foreign language classes are required in universities in the Philippines) we were never even taught the word keigo.
All this time I had no idea Itsuki was the only quint and actually only main character who was talking keigo to EVERYONE.
Anyway, I have a theory as to what Itsuki's type is, but you're not gonna like it...
For more japanese stuff re TQQ, see r/gotoubun r/itsuesugi r/raitsuki etc
Also:
ubmu3x
ubmu3x
ubmu3x
ubmu3x
ubmu3x
ubmu3x
Do you think Japanese citizens or government allow bad foreigners to come into Japan so that they can incite division amongst Japanese and foreigners?
it bothered me in Japan until I asked a friend how to snark back when it happened.....it was great: "anata mo jouzu desu ne!" it always ended with a laugh and.... "ha ha yaa....nihonjin desu kara..." ..something like that. no hurt feelings on both sides...
@3:55 came here for Sora the Troll!
ほんとおに ありがとお！
I feel like the text book japanese learning apps that Ive tryed feel excessive and only teach keigo form.
Japanese is actually my 4th language, as my native one is Latvian, and English I learned in my early teens. I am also learning German as my 3rd language. And I can say that the best way to learn a language is through word and grammar learning as well as viewing media and reading. So thank you very much for the lessons Yuuta san!
Also I use Renshuu to study words, kanji and Kana.
ファンです
Found you😂😂😂
you are fake japanese...😡
Yeah😂😂😂 i hope he ghosts you forever
how does this only have 12 likes
何かかわいいじゃん w
A Sora and Yuta crossover is something I'd like to see one day.
Up
Shogo, Sora, and Yuta are a perfect match in that they promote Japan but also are astute cultural critics, so collaborations between them would fit so well . . .
*Y E S*
@@user-yc3fw6vq5nlooks like the three C's xD the Cultured (not the degenerate one), the Casual and the Chuunibyou/Crazy xD
@@fuqnzht 笑LOL
On the flip side, when I've visited Japan, almost every Japanese person apologizes that their English is poor. I always want to say "your English is 100 times better than my Japanese, there's no need to apologize!"
Then say it! 😃
Is the phrase 十年早い still a thing? Couldn't you say (貴方の)英語は私の日本語より十年早いんです
Yeah. They make a point of being humble.
Also saying that your Japanese is good could also be interpreted as words of encouragement.
Japanese people do seem to like it when foreigners make an effort of speaking the language, even if they aren't fluent speakers.
They are fishing for compliments.
Some Japanese people also be like: Greetings, I inquire of "you're" well-being? Oh my graciousness, I humbly express profound remorse, for my proficiency in the English language is exceedingly abysmal. I deem it fitting to be subjected to due retribution for my transgressions, as I have failed to attain the pinnacle of eloquence in this esteemed tongue
Like, I guess this goes to all people who learns any language as a second language, we often see natives as the almighty Gods who speaks perfect whatever language you're learning, Japanese people often do the same, but since they have that culture of always "praising" others and "putting themselves down" somewhat, they feel the need to praise anyone who even attempts to speak Japanese, specially since they see it as this super difficult language, but I've had some Japanese friends speak perfect English and putting themselves down becuase they wrote "Your" instead of "You're" once
I think a big part of the frustration with 日本語上手 etc is where it comes from. If youre nowhere near/not quite fluent yet in the language it'll feel patronising or condescending.
But if you're effectively a native-level speaker you can tell it comes from somewhere genuine.
The level of passion and dedication it must take to reach an essentially native ability in such a different language (like Yuta has with his English), i don't think there's anything wrong with showing your appreciation for their achievements.
Had yuta not put in the many thousands of hours into English that he has, this channel literally couldn't exist.
There's a time and a place, and a way to do it.
My experience was never hearing that left handed compliment when the non-japanese speaker was native level fluency......confirmed it is an empty compliment. The best way to judge was if a Japanese person on the phone could not tell that you were a gaijin....
@gattaca 100%! Native level speakers dont really get jouzu'd, because it's basically assumed they were born in Japan, grew up there etc etc. Theyre seen as effectively Japanese (almost).
The prejudice will be there at first, but after a few sentences are exchanged with a true native level speaker they will sorta "relax" and think "oh i can be myself around him/her" or "theyre one of us" etc. Maybe not literally, but you get the idea 😅.
@@bobfranklin2572 seems to me like it still completely contextual, like haafus getting jouzud because of their appearance (and is most of the case if they know youre a foreigner)
At some level, it's very understandable, too. Just listen to American anime dubs, and you'll realize that even getting to not-earrape pronunciation takes a bit of focus, effort and awareness. 上手 is less a compliment over the raw level of ability and more hey, you're doing an unusual thing, keep at it. Then again, foreigner experience anywhere...
@@bobfranklin2572 That's apparently not true, even extremely good Japanese speakers still get 上手'd if they're not Asian looking. It's just the equivalent of saying "your English is good," Obviously if an English speaker says that they mean it to be encouraging, etc but at the same time we mostly wouldn't say it say it to someone who was actually fluent and didn't have an accent. On the other hand though, English speakers are more used to people from all over the world speaking English and having different accents, so it's not surprising when someone speaks it well.
I think the biggest difference between 日本語上手 and "wow you're english is good" is that an english speaker would practically only ever say it once you had 1. had a conversation with them to prove you can actually speak the language well and 2. made clear that English is a 2nd language. Whereas 日本語上手 can get used after just a word or two without any care about whether you are a native speaker or not. It's this use after just "ariGAto goZAImasu" that has resulted in 日本語上手 being mocked, if Japanese people only said it to conversational people it would probably be treated the same as "wow you're english is good"
Since English is the de facto global language, there's more people who expects everyone to just speak it to a degree. Whereas Japanese is only used in Japan so it's much rarer to see a foreigner use it.
tbf, i’ve heard “wow your english is good” come across as actually patronizing more often than 日本語上手
To me 日本語上手 always just felt like an inside joke in the japanese language learning community tbh. I've never taken it that seriously. Sure it can get frustrating, but it usually comes from a genuine place (or is an expression of surprise).
In case of Japanese people (born and raised in Japan who speak the language fluently) who receive the "compliment" of 日本語上手, only because they don't look "stereotypically Japanese" to others, i do understand that it is an issue.
あざっす！is a great response. So far i've been replying with sth to the effect of 「こんにちはしか言ってないんですけどね」
I always get 日本語上手’d in Tokyo for random ish like arigatou. I find it is rarer in Tohoku. Maybe because people are like what the heck would you be doing here in back of bush land if you could not speak Japanese? Lol. Also, I feel like if I am having really high level conversation, like talking about politics, I am more likely to get, “How long have you lived here?” instead. Went through a phase 7 or 8 years back where I really hated to get asked that. Once, also in Tokyo, I got into a deep conversation with a taxi driver and he asked me which country I was mixed with (Gosh, that sounds kinda grimy in English.) and I was so proud of the fact that my language level was so high he just assumed I was mixed. Also, slightly miffed that he assumed you can’t get good at Japanese just by hard work, but mostly proud. And let’s not forget that one time a guy accused me of “faking foreignness” for cool points online, simply because I can type kanji.
The same things happens in Germany. German people will always say „Wow your German is good“. It even happens to people who are native German speaker (for example it happened to a few Black German people) and those people are mostly pissed too. I can definitely understand if a „hafu“ or a foreigner who‘s lived in Japan for 20 years gets slightly pissed at such a comment, but the problem is that strangers can‘t possibly know your personal history. Their first reaction will be to treat you as a foreigner. In my experience, if you make clear that you‘ve been living in Japan for several years, or even have Japanese citizenship, they will treat you as equal 99% of the time. So yeah, as a foreigner in Japan, I don‘t mind „nihongo jouzu“ What I do mind is being excluded from housing just because I‘m a foreigner (literally 90% of landlords don‘t rent to foreigners), being denied entry into restaurants, bars and shops because I‘m a foreigner, getting discriminated on the job market due to race or nationality, etc. There are so much more worse things out there than nihongo jouzu happening in Japan everyday, that I‘m really surprised to see so many people worked up about it. In my opinion they should spend their energy combating real racial discrimination that affects a lot of foreigners in Japan.
Are there not that many black germans compared to the UK and France?
@@user-yc3fw6vq5n Definitely much less than UK and France. Germany didn‘t have as much African colonies as UK and France.
@@mojabaka Makes sense . . .
To that: Na ja, du raffst's. Passt schon.
Would have the same effect as あざっす。
It can be annoying, but I try my best not to take it personally. I chalk it up to them just being polite.
A little context from an American: we have a LOT of immigrants and people who's parents or grandparents were immigrants. During WWII, a lot of Japanese people got moved around into new communities for... pretty bad reasons. But as a result, I think a lot of places started to see Japanese or other asian families move in for the first time. Some of them might have had bad english, but their children usually didn't, because those kids went to American schools and learned English like everyone else did. Even still, many of those kids had to grow up in a place that wasn't used to seeing Asian people around, and despite the fact that they spoke English their whole lives, people would still tell them "Your English is so good!"
I remember growing up, my parents would tell me "don't say their English is good, that's rude!" Because it *was* rude. The only reason those people ever had a comment on their language skills was because they looked different than all the irish/polish/other European families that got here first. It makes them feel like they're not American, which isn't fair because if they can't be true Americans, then almost none of us should be either. So, when Americans go to Japan, especially if they go there to live permanently, they want to feel like they are Japanese, just like how their (probably) European families got to feel like they were Americans. Of course, even that probably didn't happen until a few generations got settled in. It's not like the Irish or the Polish have had a completely worry-free time moving in here either.
So I think, in a sense, many people feel offended by getting jouzu'd because they learned that it is offensive to tell people in America that their English is good, because you can't assume everyone who doesn't look European of African isn't from here. I'm not really sure how I would feel if I moved to Japan and was still getting Jouzu'd 50 years later. I think I would probably feel kinda bad about it. Of course, if I was only visiting Japan, I would probably just be happy to hear people can understand my horrible Japanese. If I had to pick between getting jouzu'd my whole life vs never getting jouzu'd ever, I think I would probably pick never getting jouzu'd ever.
After years of living in Japan, I pretend that they are sincered and I would simply reply with thanks.
And as a persiin growing in non-english speaking country, I also often got the same expression that "my english is good"
Whenever I said something in my Japanese classes, my sensei always said すばらしい and it was just his way to encourage me and my classmates. So I think teachers and native speakers use those phrases as a means to motivate you to keep learning.
My Japanese isn’t great but being able to communicate is the core of language. If you comprehend and can get your point across you will naturally improve overtime.
Interesting that many Japanese people underestimate Japan’s cultural soft power. But it makes sense. To me it’s so obvious how iconic Japan is because it’s a major cultural force that is easily assessable but not “western”. But if you’re Japanese, the pop culture probably just feels mundane too some extent.
I've lived here for 7 years now and I didn't realise how many things had become just normal to me until I met a person who had recently arrived and told me how they were blown away by the "quality" of convenience store food. Things really don't feel special when you see them all the time.
The amount of times East Asia (in general) gets excited to see a mention of them in the west... well as an American, they have no idea how popular it is! As an Asian person I also underestimate it too because a lot of the things they consider Asia to be "exotic" is their norm (though I guess I'm pretty white-washed myself and get excited looking at how cool Japan can seem to me).
Otaku and weeb culture are something in the same with an anime-obsession but otaku culture is generally frowned upon for being overzealous and weeb culture is almost fetish-y.
It's the same thing with American culture. People who claims that America has no culture probably watched Hollywood movies and ate McDonald's before.
That's prob true. In latam, Japanese media/food/style is very popular and anyone from latam visiting Japan would find it to be amazing.
In contrast the Japanese don't seem to care for a lot of their own things, which is sad.
There's also that liking anime won't translate into sticking with learning Japanese
The only time I went to Japan, I spent 6 days in Kyoto. Maybe because I started with すみません、私の日本語下手です and continued in broken japanese english mixture, I was not jouzued... But one elderly guy at the ticketing counter of Nijou castle (who could speak great english) encouraged me saying that my 発音 was great... and it felt like it was very sincere. I am in the "people are overreacting" team after that.
I've lived in Osaka for almost 6 months and am probably similar level to what you described and I'm getting by mostly in broken Japanese with not much English and I haven't been Jouzu'd one time so I think this idea that people say it to you when you have poor Japanese isn't that true.
I love getting "日本語うまい" and joking with them "美味しいですね" I know it's a different "umai" and they almost always look a little taken aback until they realise I know what I'm saying and laugh with me.
Your English is tasty.
日本語うつくしあじがするね
I like that as a reply, thank you!
I had thought to use something like "私は改善するために頑張っています"
I mean as a French person i can of do the same thing with foreigners that learn French, i feel like it's encouraging to have your language ability complimented. So when my japanese is complimented by Japanese people i kind of get the reasonning and i know it comes from a good place so i really don't mind.
Speaking as an アメリカ人 from Ohio with a degree in 言語学 and six months of 留学 experience at Chubu Dai, I found this video really enjoyable and thought-provoking. I'm assuming azassu is a shortened form of ありがとうございます? I wish I had known that back when I was in Japan.
Also, I want to tell you two stories. One is my favorite time getting nihongo jouzu'd, the other is my least favorite time. I'll start with my least favorite time, cause it's a shorter story. There was a particular building in Chubu Dai where all the exchange students would have classes, and one day, I met a man in a suit on the elevator on my way up to class. I had never met him before, so we said hello, and he nihongo jouzu'd me. This was the only time in the entire six months I was over there that anyone saying that to me bothered me, and what bothered me about it was just... like.. we're in the place where the exchange students have classes in Japanese, dude. If we were out on the street somewhere and he was surprised by my おはようございます, that would maybe be one thing, but I felt like the guy should've known that, in this building, he'd be encountering people who could speak Japanese. But in fairness, there were also native students taking classes on other floors there, so maybe he just never went up to the top floor for anything and always did his job or whatever on the other floors? I don't know. That and the fact that I was in a closed elevator with him (so, an enclosed space with no way to leave) when he said it, I think that might've also been a little part of it too.
Ok, so my favorite story: There was a 旅館 we went to one time, and we were told that there would be a lot of native students there who were going on their own for their own reasons, but that we might get a chance to talk to some of them at meals. And it's worth noting that part of the study abroad program was taking classes in America before we even got on the plane about what to expect, so I think most of us (or maybe all of us) knew about things like 本音 and 建前 and about how, when someone gives you a compliment in Japan, you're supposed to deny in twice before accepting it the third time. So, I was at this long table in this ryokan, having breakfast, and there was this girl sitting across from me I'd never met before. We introduced ourselves and she jouzu'd me, but I denied it, and after I denied it, she said, 本当に。。。 in a very soft tone, and just from the tone and the look in her eyes as she said it, I felt like she understood that I knew the cultural scripts and like, in that moment, her compliment became more sincere than it had been, although I don't think it was that insincere to begin with. It was a genuine compliment that then became more genuine when I played along with the cultural expectations.
I found your idea that nihongo jouzu is an exclamation rather than an actual compliment (sincere or otherwise) to be something I hadn't considered before, and, at least in my experience, I could see it being the case. I think a lot of the students I studied with just thought it was tatemae rather than honne, and like that alone doesn't necessarily mean it's insincere, because you can sincerely be trying to follow the steps you know, and that doesn't need to mean there's anything mean or insincere about doing so. But I definitely understand why some people might not like hearing it too. Personally, I don't mind it though. Thanks for the video.
Oh, I almost forgot! I mentioned that I'm from Ohio cause I wanna give you an idea of what my English is like when I say that, honestly, there have been times when even though I've lived in America my whole life (apart from those six months), my ears might still sometimes have trouble understanding the sounds other English speakers make when they speak, particularly if they happen to have a really thick accent from New York and/or New Jersey. It's very, very rare, but it does happen.
Usually it'll click what they said after a moment or two, so it's a very slight effect, but I wouldn't feel bad for not knowing what they said if I were you.
Im pretty sure あざっす is the opposite of what you said. He said it's like thank you but in a colloquial way, which is ordinary/informal. i might be misunderstanding what you said though.
@@flash93 it is a shortened form of ありがとうございます like op suspected it was. The extreme shortening/slurring of it is exactly what makes it casual/colloquial. But it does come from the "full version"
@@flash93 I'm saying it sounds like a shortened (not informal) version of a very formal saying. ありがとうございます would be very formal, ですね, but I also notice that there is some overlap in terms of what sounds are used. I was wondering where あざっす came from and I imagine it's probably something like A-rigatougo-ZA-ima-SU, or a-za-ssu for short? With the small tsu being a product of dropping the other kana. That's just what came to mind, so I could be wrong, but I think it would be really neat if that were where it came from.
lol あざっす sounds like Gracias when you also say it in a quick "everyday" way
Its that Honne vs. Tatamae culture of Japan that makes foreigners nervous about any complement they get. 日本語上手 is just one that particularly sets off those alarms where we think Japanese speakers aren't being sincere but just trying to be nice. You might hear westerners say something similar to you, but most westerners are much more honest and open- there's rarely confusion on genuineness (which is a blessing and a curse).
Wow! Your English is so good 👍
This is probably the same everywhere in East Asia. I live in China (as a white man) and while it doesn't happen in all or even the majority of interactions, getting told "wow, your Chinese is so good!" or "your pronunciation is so 標準 (standard)!" or sometimes even "your Chinese is better than mine!" happens frequently enough that it's pretty clear: a) Chinese people have *extremely* low expectations for "foreigners", and b) it doesn't matter how hard you try, you will *never* be considered Chinese.
And likewise, even if you naturalize, if you aren't ethnically East Asian, you will not be considered a Japanese person; you will be considered a foreigner with a Japanese passport.
I would imagine similar things happen a lot less in countries with large and racially diverse immigrant populations, like the US or Germany, but I can't confirm that personally. I have sadly heard of the same thing happening to e.g. Asian-Americans.
Well actually the opposite happens in countries like US. You could speak English completely fluently but if you have certain accents you'll still be mocked for your English and treated like your English is garbage. And it absolutely does happen that non-White people in Germany and US are treated as not being actual Germans or Americans. Happens all the time.
I always love your plugs for your email group. Always so smooth.
Yeah it's great until I got through the 3 day period and found out about the price. No amount of sweet talking is gonna sell me on that.
I think I saw so many Yuta's videos that I can sense the moment when his does his ads integrations!
The concept of 日本語上手ですね comes from two driving factors. Firstly, Japan is super homogeneous, less than 2% of the population are international residents so unless you're in a major city, there's a good chance that the people saying it have never seen a foreigner outside of TV or movies, many of us probably overlook this detail but there are a lot of cities in Japan and only a handful of those are ones visited or inhabited by Foreigners. Secondly, Japanese culture is a super polite culture (pretty sure it's actually recorded as being the politest culture followed by British culture. Though the way politeness is used is very different). Japanese people prefer to save face of themselves and others, so instead of telling you you're bad they'd rather tell you that you're good to encourage you to keep learning. Though, there are probably those who have ill intentions when they say it. However, after a while of being in Japan and interacting with Japanese people it usually goes away. Personally, I did get it when I first moved but I'd always say it's not good and I need more practice (that's still the case) but now I only get it from my teacher after we free-talk or if I struggle and seem deflated to encourage me to keep trying.
Though, I get why people feel it's demeaning in nature. Especially if you're aware you make/made a mistake when receiving 日本語上手ですね, it can be frustrating in those moments but the truth is you're probably frustrated with yourself. Also, another difficult thing is finding someone who's not afraid to tell you that you're wrong or making mistakes and teach you a more natural way of speaking in Japan/Japanese unless you actively ask. I'd say that it's actually an obstacle in the cultural and language barrier that makes making friends difficult. Luckily, my coworker always let's me know if I make a mistake, sometimes she's direct, sometimes she'll model a more natural sentence or she'll subtly say "I understand your Japanese, don't worry. I know what you mean." 🤣
Great series of how anime characters speak Japanese. Please do Itsuki Nakano from the quintessential quintuplets or any or all the 7 main characters in TQQ. How they speak Japanese I believe is very important to understanding the plot eg the honorifics, the lost in translation stuff (eg when they say things like zurui, hatsukoi, uso, tachi, fukuzatsu Vs taihen, mote etc that are removed from the dub). I compiled a lot of the lost in translation stuff in r/gotoubun
Something to consider about Itsuki:
The Quintessential Quintuplets' character types are:
Ichika - Onee-san / ara ara,
Nino - tsundere,
miku - kuudere / dandere,
Yotsuba - genki
Itsuki - ??
- Tsundere like Nino?
- Eat-suki?
- Imouto?
- Someone who speaks keigo to their siblings, to Fuutarou and to Raiha and to everyone basically?
Actually, the main thing I learned from Yuta's videos that keigo is basically just desu, masu & their variations.
I swear when I learned elementary Japanese in bachelor's (foreign language classes are required in universities in the Philippines) we were never even taught the word keigo.
All this time I had no idea Itsuki was the only quint and actually only main character who was talking keigo to EVERYONE.
Anyway, I have a theory as to what Itsuki's type is, but you're not gonna like it...
For more japanese stuff re TQQ, see r/gotoubun r/itsuesugi r/raitsuki etc
Also:
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Wow that's amazing that you were never taught keigo in bachelor's level Japanese, that is shocking . . .
@@user-yc3fw6vq5n thanks. I could be wrong, but I really don't think I am. I really believe desu and masu were just used as if they are correct. That was 2012. But I knew already in 2008 from death note there's watashi wa L desu Vs boku ga (wa?) Kira da. But I never really thought about desu Vs da.
1 - But yeah da is just non-keigo version of desu right?
2 - I gotta check the genki book to be sure. Is it in genki in the 1st 5 chapters? 10 chapters? The whole genki 1 book?
I could definitely see that it would get annoying for someone who's been in Japan for a long time, or especially all their life. But as a novice, I'll take all the compliments I can get 😅
I also appreciate how you are able to see both sides of the story and share it with us.
Some of the comments miss your point as they try to swear sincerity in complimenting your English.
Japan has so much to offer to the world.. where do we even start with that. As for Nihongo Jouzu why get offended if:
1. You're a newbie in Nihongo it's good to be appreciated since it would boost your confidence
2. You've lived long in Japan and already a pro in Nihongo it's great to be said Jouzu since the compliment is sincere and genuine
I love when Yuta gets that smirk on his face and the shilling for his Patreon starts. 😂😂😂 セグエ上手ですね
I adore Japan. I love the culture and compared to Canada (where I’m from), it’s quite interesting.
I met a Japanese girl in a store and we were talking back and forth. She was curious and how long I’ve studied Japanese (in Japanese).
I explained in Japanese how I love the culture, language and how different it is from English.
It’s been 11 years for me. Talking to another person in a different language is amazing.
I do have a learning disorder and autism. So, it takes me awhile to learn stuff but worth it.
Even if it took 11years you've learned something many (most?) people don't in their whole lives. Hope you get to visit Japan one day (if you haven't already!)
Hey you managed to get the task done so that's great! buddy there's no age limit to learning so as long as you're enjoying it, take as much time as you need. By the way could we say that... after all these years of hard training... you finally became... 日本語上手なのか？
I rarely hear 日本語上手。But definitely never feel patronized when I do, and always feels nice. Usually it's "where did you learn Japanese" or "how long have you been in Okinawa". Really, i just know a good amount of phrases and ok pronunciation.
I always love how you transition to your plug for your e-mail group
It's a compliment, it can be a mixture of surprise and pleasure, and then it can be as pleasantries, friendliness, conversation starter so it's not too tense and fluid, or it's even used as a "relief" at the start of a conversation, as a distraction insert to make it more relaxed when continuing the conversation. So, it's not a problem at all, maybe just reply with "Really? Thank you," "Ah, no-no I'm still learning," or just smile in a friendly way, etc.
It can happens anywhere, especially in countries where many ethnic groups visit each other (like in Indonesia with hundreds of ethnic groups); When there are people from other tribes who speak their language (albeit a little), they will rejoice and praise; Often the atmosphere turns fluid like a "child;" If he/she is older he/she can even get along instantly and see us as their "family."
The nature of an Eastern person who likes to be suddenly cheerful and "a bit" childish, maybe that is not understood by people from European and surrounding cultures, which can be very "serious" [or] changed "brutal" (unable to limit him/herself anymore, "act on your own," when he/she feels that he/she is "free"). True Hospitality is a good thing, although it is also dangerous to meet evil and cunning strangers, history has proven it (can turn into betrayal, used, even then "occupation," then the society was destroyed); That's why it's understandable, why it is forbidden for Russians to smile at foreigners (without sufficient reasons, for example: knowing well each other), so much so that it becomes a culture; A stranger who suddenly smiled at Russian for no good reason or even without any apparent reason would be seen as suspicious, weird, perhaps even dangerous and harboring certain manipulative intentions -- although basically, like other humans they can also be friendly and very kind; It is related to experience, history, and how their community survives, span a long time.
I like what the person at 7:46 said about 日本語ですね being a set phrase with an often expected or culturally appropriate response being いえいえまだまだですよ！ As say an American English speaker, we understand the actual meaning of the phrases and take them at face value or read way too much into them because we're coming at it from our cultural perspective. But if it's just a set phrase then I see it being no different than the phrase "How are you?" with the set reply being "Good good. How about you?"
All my Japanese friends (and I'm sure friends from other countries) get so hung up on this phrase and ask how they should respond even though in their head they might know they can just say "I'm good" and move on. It doesn't vibe with them culturally because that's not how they start conversations with people, so they start overthinking it. Even if they get used to responding in a culturally appropriate way, it probably still feels off internally because they may still be asking themselves "what if I'm not ok, what am I supposed to say then? It feels like I'm lying if I say 'I'm good.'"
So I'd say once you understand why people often say it, don't think about it too much more than that. When you start responding in a culturally appropriate way, don't get too hung up on that internal voice saying "this doesn't feel right" and just remember this set phrase is no different than many others we have like "how are you?" Even when we do pick this phrase apart and think about why we say it, what we could say differently since it feels ingenuine as a question if it's basically just used as "hello," we still use it in every interaction because it's the smooth way for us to interact in our culture and we don't give it a second thought.
We gotta approach other set phrases in the same way. Imagine an atheist getting hung up on the many greetings that exist in Hebrew or Arabic just because they don't believe in God. There's no need for them to think too deeply about it if it's just used effectively the same way our many greetings our used.
Well, Japaneese is in that spot where quite a few people learn it, but not quite as many visit and speak with Japaneese people, so I can understand why they'd be considering it a nice thing to say to foreigners who bothered. I'd propably do the same when meeting some obvious foreigner speaking decent Polish, followed up by 'how long have you lived here?' as a kind of normal small talk thing.
I got the same a couple times in Germany when trying to speak German, can't say how I'll react to it thirty years from now, but so far it feels like a nice acknowledgment of the effort put into learning.
I've been living in Japan for 17 years, so yeah I've heard it a few times. I understand your points, Yuta. And as a Japanese person you may know the intention much better than I do. But in my experience, it is just a nice polite encouraging thing, so I would give my support to that view. In my experience it seems to be used more often to people who are not good at Japanese, just as an encouragement. As an English teacher, I understand that perfectly. Being as encouraging as possible to beginners just seems like a nice thing to do.
That said, some of the negative things you suggest are definitely out there and may have something to do with it.
Oh and I agree with you. English pronunciation is like a gazillion times harder for Japanese people than Japanese is to English speakers. The mora system and fewer sounds of Japanese make it an uphill battle for Japanese learners of English.
Great video!
ive never gotten the "you speak good japanese" but ive been on the sidelines while its happened, and with other languages too.
the funniest was probably someone confusing mandarin and vietnamese so telling my friend "you speak good mandarin" when completely different language (but shared root language)
finally someone made a video for this after all these years.
To me, "nihongo jouzu!" sounds like "wow, we thought other cultures didn't care about us at all! thank you for taking interest in our culture and language!", so I'll never get mad when someone says it to me, no matter how repetitive it may get. People need to understand that it is not said with patronizing intention. They're getting offended because they want to be offended.
I have been living in Japan for a month now and have been studying for just over a year and a half. I have been using as much Japanese as I can in every situation from going to the immigration centre, ordering food and casually speaking to my Japanese friends and colleagues. The only person to 日本語上手 me so far is the postman because I answered the door with はい〜.
I really don’t think it happens as often people think.
I like the brevity and low formality of あざっす as you said. I don’t understand the humor behind it, but I like how it communicates ones feelings about the subject matter pretty efficiently and effectively but in a subtle manner. (Ie: you might be pleasantly surprised, but I don’t make too much of it)
i only really remember one time where someone would say 日本語上手ですね and that was in my hometown after i explained to two tourists that the train they were on would be split and only the rear part would go to the airport. i had brusquely asked them if they were on the way to the airport and then explained they had to change to the rear part eventually (i figure it's easy to miss or get confused when you're not a local, even if you do understand the languages the announcements are in) and the 日本語上手ですね wasn't even said to me but to the other tourist after our conversation had ended. which makes me think like it was pretty much a "oh, what a fortunate coincidence that someone who speaks our language helped us out so we don't get lost"
other than that it was usually more fitted to the situation, like when someone found it cool that i knew the expression ◯◯によると (which probably sounds a bit bookish but i know they still just found it lowkey impressive) or when they found it cute that i knew the kanji 鴨. and yeah, part of being perceived as cute is being perceived as childlike, but that's just how japanese culture rolls. nothing to feel dimished by as a person.
another aspect to this whole topic is that i could see how some learners (*•coughs•* weebs *•coughs•*) may think being jōzued automatically means their japanese is just soooo good when it really isn't, and i assume more diligent learners then went to explain that it doesn't (necessarily) mean it's good and got carried away inventing the "they are actually making fun of you" notion. and that then became it's own narrative which partially informs why people get so offended.
then again, if you hear it all the time i see how it gets tiring. and of course situations like the one the half-japanese told about their friend are kind of disheartening.
in the end, i say it's best to just accept that it has become a set phrase and not make too much of it. and of course the suggested あざっす will shut up at least the person you're talking to at that moment.. you'll still "risk" being jōzued by the very next stranger you have to interact with, so swallowing one's pride at least a bit is a good habit to acquire.
What Yuta has just shown is that people need to just take things on face value. Also, words can be as nuanced as situations.
I have used あざっす as a response before in that exact situation. Response was an immediate 「うわ、すげー」
I think the reason you get so "many" compliments for your 英語 is, because it truly IS amazing AND people know what most other Japanese people speak like, which puts an extra feeling of achievement and uniqueness to it. :)
Yeah it's not the same as someone like me just saying arigatogozaimasu ありがとうございます
He can actually speak the language (and uses it in the way that a native would) where as I know a few phrases and can recognize a handful of kanji (at best a handful lol)
I can definitely say this happens everywhere. I get the equivalent in German pretty often, along with all the things you mentioned (for example disbelief that anyone would be interested in learning German). It is tiring to be sure. But I don't find it as annoying as something older people tend to do where they speak extra clearly and slowly to me even though they know I have been living in Germany for over a decade speaking essentially German exclusively.
I have been Nihongo jouzu'd many times! But your English really IS good, Yuta, and I really mean it.
I definitely feel you here. It's one thing being surprised that someone can say a few words or phrases.
But Yuta is probably better at English than the average native speaker. He can Manipulate the language, organise and precisely express his exact thoughts, he has excellent word/phrase selection, and can say stuff like "Jouzu'd" the way a native would.
Okay, his accent aint perfect, but Yuta is in the literal top 0.1% of Japanese adults who've learned English.
I don't think showing appreciation of top-tier accomplishments is anything like an 英語上手 style comment.
It's like whenever I think about my experience in Japan and why social interactions and conversations went the way the did, Yuta is always here to explain the context and mechanics of it all even though he wasn't physically there when it happened. Thank you for validating this super controversial take amongst a small population in Japan. You're really doing good work here.
Epic
I like this video a lot, I think the points you make are really ON POINT.
You just set in motion thousands of awkward conversations with that bit of advice you gave at the end. Can't wait to hear what kind of reactions people got.
So on a recent trip to Japan, my black friend got jouzu'd for literally just saying "mizu" in an American accent at a restaurant. My goal, on the other hand, was to interact as much as possible without getting jouzu'd once, which turned out to be pretty easy as an ethnic Chinese. Actually, I had a different problem, since my pronunciation is pretty good and I look the part - it'd often be a few sentences of normal interaction but then I run out of vocabulary, and then people just get confused and aren't sure whether I'm a foreigner whose Japanese is decent, or if I'm Japanese but stupid.
Haha 笑 I find it weird that Japanese, Koreans and Chinese struggle to tell each other apart, just like Westerners can't tell Asians apart, in general. Having watched 바둑TV and 囲碁 channels on TH-cam for a while, to me it's often quite easy to tell you all apart from looks and body language.
I believe the second impression is more concerning 😂😂😂
Yuta, thank you for offering such a balanced, level-headed argument about the often contended issue. Very informative!
I feel this stems from a good place. People are just happy that happy communication is happening-and they’re happy when people make an attempt.
I prefer ありがとうございます。こちらこそ。
そちらこそ if you're trying to flip the script (こちらこそ implies you're still talking about yourself).
@@Brave_Pirate No, こちらこそ is a set phrase, it means "it's I who should say that".
I'm not sure if you can use そちらこそ to mean "no it's you who is 上手" in this case, it sounds kind of unnatural to me.
Generally こちらこそ comes as a set with ありがとうございます
@@chrisff1989 Just so you know, そちらこそ/そっちこそ is a set phrase just like こちらこそ/こっちこそ, albeit less common.
It really depends on the message you want to send with your reply. For me, the aim is to throw off the speaker who initially complimented me with some irony.
For instance...
If a Japanese person says "日本語上手 (your Japanese is good)" to me, I can reply,
ありがとうございます。こちらこそ。to imply I also think MY Japanese is good.
or I can reply,
ありがとうございます。そちらこそ。to say "YOU'RE the one whose Japanese is good." Of course his/her Japanese would be better because he/she is a native speaker, but that's the joke.
こちらこそ to mean "I'm the one who should be saying that" is correct, but only one of several different meanings the phrase can be used. It can also mean, "I'm the one who is/should be/thinks..."
tl;dr What you said is right, but what I initially suggested isn't necessarily wrong depending on context.
9:40 I once had an involvement with a lovely, beaufitul lady here where I live. And I'm such a devout Catholic Christian that anyone meeting me would instantly recognise my religion is the absolute priority in my life, above absolutely everything else. But this girl would ask me time and time again 'what was your religion again?' everytime we met, which ended up making her seem dumb and distespectful to me, so I ghosted her.
I always find it interesting how Yuta inserts the self promotion here and there. That’s one thing I always like to hear when watching your videos.
Never got 「日本語上手」here in Japan but I’ve gotten 「発音が綺麗ですね」by my dorm manager
I like how you turn the noun 上手into a verb jouzu’d so colloquially.
The stealth eigo jouzu.
You can use almost any word (including foreign words and even people's names) as a colloquial verb in english. As an ESL, it's one of my favorite features of the language (I guess you can sort of do the same in japanese with する, although not as dynamically in my experience).
上手 Literally means Upper Hand
チルノは日本に日本語最上手だわ！
Haha yes! Actually knowing the nature of the English language it will probably instantly become an English word introduced by Yuta from Japanese
Azassu! xD Arigatou gozaimasu
I always find it funny how contracted some stuff can become in Japanese...
Also, you can always answer with a tongue twister...
I feel like I do not get jouzu’d in French, Spanish and Portuguese. I do often get, “Where are you from?” Or some assumption about it. In Colombia, people often asked if I was from San Andres and in Martinique, people thought I was from Quebec. I consider that a compliment. “You speak well, but your accent is different from ours.”
I get it a lot here in the USA because I am learning Japanese through work, and I try to talk to the Japanese staff (people on rotation from our parent company). I know their intention is to encourage me and help correct me if I make a mistake. In turn, I help them with their English.😊
Don't worry, once you become conversational, you won't get it much anymore. I've lived in Japan for three months now since coming back here, and the only two times I got jouzu'd were
1) when I came across a child and his father in a hiking trail. The kid greeted me, I did the same back, and the dad was like おお、日本語上手ですね to the kid.
2) when I helped my brother, who was visiting me, to buy ointment for a burn at a pharmacy. And that was a genuine compliment, the woman working the register said she would have been screwed if I wasn't there to speak Japanese since she couldn't speak English.
To be fair to Sora: At least in my memory, Japan only got really popular in the last 10 to 15 years, most likely due to the people who grew up with Japanese video games becoming adults. (Ok, the second cohort who grew up with them became adult, making it about 2 to 3 cohorts)
I really can't remember a Japan hype from the 90s or the 2000s (at the time, the US was the most popular country)
It's probably due to cultural power that Japan is now a pretty popular country, while the US is somewhat stagnateing in regards of cultural output.
And from what I hear from some local Japanese people (in Germany), there are still a lot of people who mix up China and Japan on the regular.
A lot has changed, but some things didn't.
On a related note, a Japanese woman in NYC responded "sugoi!" when I spoke to her in Japanese. "Sugoi!" translates to "Amazing!" in English, but I have a feeling it doesn't mean quite the same thing. I hear 'sugoi' n Japanese more often than "amazing" in English. When I say something is amazing, I really mean it as an extreme superlative. So if I write 'amazing' and a Japanese person uses the google translate to 'sugoi', I think there isn't a perfect communication. I'd like to know what Japanese word is closer in meaning to 'amazing' in the sense of a man with spider powers walking upside down on the ceiling.
You see what I'm saying? If a Japanese person saw a man walking upside down on the ceiling, what word would they use? Somehow, I don't think 'sugoi' is that word. If I saw a monkey playing chess, I would say "that's amazing!" But I really wouldn't say "that's amazing!" to a foreigner speaking English -- that could only be interpreted as an insult. But I'm 100% certain my Japanese friend didn't mean "look at the talking monkey!" when she said "sugoi!"
I'm half Japanese, and I lost count of how many times I was told this. I agree that It never has felt sarcastic, but it does get kind of tiring.
If I go to Japan and get told this, that probably makes me happy, because I'm on beginner level and lack confidence. But I understand the reason why some people may be bothered by it. I remember a Trash Taste episode where it was mentioned.
The only time I got similar reaction was when a Japanese woman visited our home (a small town in Serbia) and I casually started singing a One Piece opening. (Well, my dad already told her about me knowing Japanese as he likes to brag.) That felt good, because I got confident at pronounciation.
By the way, it was funny when she asked how to say water in Hungarian, because "mizu" and "víz" sounds very similar.
Wow, that's a great story! Now I'm all kinds of curious, don't mind me!
I wouldn't be upset. I will never be Japanese. I know it and Japanese people know it. And there's nothing wrong with that.
If I could go to Japan and not make an ass of myself, but leave Japanese people I meet with a good and respectable impression in their country, then that would be rewarding enough.
I think it's sweet! I feel like people are just encouraging me. And maybe it's just a small-talky way of making a connection.
I too was surprised to learn how much English is in Japanese and that they learn it in school. I'd watch an anime or hear a Japanese song and occasionally someone just uses an English phrase, which I thought was weird. I understand English is an important language in the world, but I'm from a country where learning another language is just not necessary and we don't really bother. I guess I kind of assumed that people in Japan wouldn't bother, people in Germany wouldn't bother, people in Norway wouldn't bother, etc.
6:07
Awesome content! 😊
They say that when foreigners are learning English from the TV, they prefer watching Newscasters, because they can understand them easier than anything else.
Are there any resources similar to this in Japanese?
Or maybe a resource that jokingly sarcastically overemphasizes the Japanese pitch and tonality?… let me explain.
Another reason for this request is because as a native English speaking American, learning Spanish and French, I found that doing a “Jim Carey” when speaking the language, I would get inquiries like, “Wow, Are you from the Dominican Republic? You have a strong accent”, or “You must be from Quebec, because you’re nailing their emphasis on the ‘r’!”
Or when I micmic the Looney Tunes character, Pepé Le Pew, people say that I must of studied in Paris.
Have you made a video on the different accents/dialects between Osaka, Kyoto, Okinawa and Tokyo?
Have you made a video on new modern Japanese idioms, sayings, quotes, and ancient proverbs and particles?
Thank you so much for all of your help. ❤
I feel weirdly called out even though I'm german. It's pretty common to compliment people even if they only know a single word. It's really an appreciation for putting in the effort and meant to be encouraging. Plus, it may not seem like a big deal, but most tourists don't bother to learn "hello", "bye", "thank you", "you're welcome". Same with residents, there are people living decades in Germany without being to speak a single word. I'm sure it's similar in Japan. These things might be "normal" in the language learing community / for people who are interested in other cultures, but it really isn't in the grand scheme of things.
Guilty I was stationed there for 2 years didn't learn a lick of a German looking back it was probably one of the bigger mistakes Ive made. some MINOR defe se I was right next to an America ized city (Kaiserslautern) so wasn't really any need to learn
I simply can't find 日本語上手ですね good in any context. If the person I'm speaking too really did find my speech so comprehensible, they'd continue the conversation - Isn't that the point of language, to communicate? - instead of halting the flow of the topic to a dead halt with left field "compliment."
i've been studying japanese quite internsively for over two years, and have received uncountable amounts of 日本語お上手ですね in my time of learning it. I've researched and trained as well as experimented with different ways of countering this technique, and right now i've settled on そちらも to confuse their brain as well as catch them off guard, then finish them with the move どこで 日本語を勉強したんですか? this technique works wonders with wild 日本人 that appears and i would say is a super effective move that can OHKO them !
Absolutely savage 😂
Actually laughed out loud. Fantastic work.
マジすごい応答だね。日本に行ったらその応答を試みるよ。
same here...but I would lay it on thick with politeness to get my point across..."Homegoroshi" concept that proves Japanese don't like being complimented for efforts they know are inferior..... "日本語お上手" is a dig...they know it.
To be honest, when I went to Japan for five weeks, I didn't get nihongo jouzu once.
The only time I heard it was in a Karaoke bar, there were a bunch of Japanese businessmen and their boss and one of my friends, who wasn't as proficient in Japanese as me tried talking to them.
He basically just said utter nonsense, it was hard for me to keep myself from breaking out in a laughing fit, then the boss went "nihongo jouzu" to him which finally broke me.
That was a great evening.
英語上手！
I've been guilty of this crap too, in a way. I've asked non-native English speakers about where or how they learned English out of curiosity. Some people learn it at home from an English speaking parent but predominantly speak another language, others learned it after emigrating as a non-English speaker, most learn in school. I sometimes ask about what language they think in and I've heard some interesting answers. There are some words or phrases that are naturally simpler or exclusive to different languages so when people are highly fluent in two or more languages they sometimes switch seamlessly mid-thought between languages. Some people who have learned another language think in different languages depending on the setting, eg. thinking in English at work but in their native language at all other times. It's interesting to me but I can see how my questions about it could have put people on the spot as if I were evaluating them or something. From what I've observed though a lot of non-native English speakers who have learned formally have a stronger grasp of grammar and frequently a more articulate vocabulary since they don't rely on an intuitive familiarity that is loaded with slang and colloquialisms ( that a lot of people don't even use correctly), they've also learned these rules more recently than a lot of native speakers, and were more likely to have actually been paying attention when the rules were being taught unlike presumptuous native speakers who regard their understanding as complete while not even understanding the basics of syntax. I find this difference is most observable in written English, where I've frequently noticed non-native speakers using much more deliberate language with a much clearer meaning than a lot of native speakers with sloppy grammar. I think a lot of the time the offense can come from the presumption of the native speaker that they have something to impart or that they're in a position to even access the fluency of a non-native speaker, there's a very real chance somebody recently studying your language understands it even better than you do, as I've embarrassingly discovered on occasion.
The way to ignore that word is to think of it as sarcasm or an insult of how bad you're at Japanese
Like Nick said
In regards to your own english speaking skills, Yuta. I think it may be a result of the common perception that people outside of Japan don't consider the Japanese in general to be very proficient english speakers.
And it's probably not an unwarranted stereotype since many Japanese people themselves say that english education in Japan isn't all that great.
For example, as a Swede, when I talk to people from Anglophone countries, nobody really remarks upon my english speech at all. Most likely because Sweden has an international reputation for being a country of proficient english speakers with only a very small degree of noticeable accent.
It's not just that westerners don't expect Japanese to be good at English, it's that we don'tsee Japanese people as that interested or knowledgeable about anything outside of Japan.
It's funny that Japanese see the west as generally advanced, because people in the west see Japan as advanced in technology with things like magnet propelled trains, so don't see themselves as ahead and advanced compared to Japan at all except in one thing, worldiness and certain social issues like racism. We in the west generally don't think Japanese are that interested in world affairs or other countries. We kind of see them like bush people with technology more advancedthan us. In fact I won't be surprised if Yuta also gets the, they are Japanese, but to me your not Japanese, you're Yuta, attitudes, since an actual Japanese can't be knowledgeable about how the rest of the world outside Japan works
So in a sense westerners kind of expect a secluded country like Japan to be racist, and maybe see as a way of saying lokk how lucky we are to not be so secluded, however since it's seen more as due to Japanese just generally being ignorant moreso than active hate, we see Japan as one of us due to being technologically as advanced as us and having democratic freedoms.
I always wondered why Nordic people speak English like a native, I thought maybe Nordic languages must be easy for English speakers to learn too. Nordic people are the literal embodiment of 英語上手. In fact as an adolescent I considered, and still consider now even though I'm 24, 囲碁陰性 now 囲碁棋士 Antti Törmänen's English as Superior to my own and I'm English.
@@user-yc3fw6vq5n I believe Nordic countries get lots of english language media from an early age. They are both exposed to huge amounts of it, and are interested enough in it to learn it.
Whereas Germany dubs everything, for example.
@@stormveil There's something to that. At least for me. If you want to understand what's going on in a video game you're forced to learn english, because it's very rare for any games to be dubbed here.
Then there's the fact that movies from abroad are also almost never dubbed but always subtitled.
Having movies subtitled really helps a lot when trying to learn english.
Yeah the languages are very similar so it's not very difficult to go from one to the other, whereas english Japanese is very difficult.
"some people have rather limited brain resources." This is the most polite way I've ever heard someone call someone stupid. lmao.
Nihongo ga Skoshi wakarimus 😅
LOL I can't believe you're STILL going on about this! Let it go Yuta!!!
I fully agree. I came to much the same conclusion when I lived in Japan. Some combination of ignorance, low national self esteem (which is VERY real btw), and good intentions. Also, on the off chance anyone reads this, Japan doesn't really do sarcasm. It just isn't a part of the language the way it is in English.
Clarifying: they have it. But it isn't a prominent feature of the language. Like swear words? Those words exist, but aren't really part of the colloquial language diet of most people.
I kind of miss it when you don't slip in one of your Hanakawa Tsubasa references. =-]
I think it's such a set phrase you start hearing from your first "kounneichiwa" that it starts feeling meaningless really quick
I definitely felt like I was getting talked down to because I'm no were close to fluent in Japanese and I also knew Japanese people didn't intend to offend me at all when the phrase 日本語上手 was used to me, but I truly understood the Japanese perspective after my American friend said: "I would be pretty shocked if a black man started speaking Japanese too." It all made sense XD
漢検１級・日本語検定１級に受かってから『日本語上手』を諦観するようになった
I had an embarrassing moment in Japan when I got 日本語が上手い instead of 日本語上手 and I didn't know what 上手い meant yet. It felt really weird to be getting a compliment about my Japanese ability but not even understanding the compliment!
Yuta segue jouzu desu ne.
Mada mada desu.
Excellent video as always. However, Id consider Japanese just as hard for english speakers as english is for native Japanese speakers. It is considered a Category IV language for english speakers. Also, 日本語上手 can get very tiring hearing it 20 times in a day. If a Japanese person comes to America and ask for water I'm not going to say wow your english is SOOO GOOD! Now if that person spends a whole conversation talking, then a compliment is likely given. Hell, I've been to Japan so many times and even saying こんにちは with out a foreign "accent" has gotten me a 日本語上手 it's like really for one word?
I also think areas matter too. In countrysides, it is more likely to get "nihongo jouzu-ed" since native Japanese in countryside areas don't usually see much foreigners in the first place, not to mention meeting foreigners who speak decent Japanese.
I only know a relatively small number of Japanese words and phrases, and I have a hard time understanding more complicated sentences. I also can't really string any sentences together myself for the most part without using a tool for assistance. (Though I do think my pronunciation is generally pretty good.) On the 9 day trip I just took to Japan I got 日本語上手'd at least 4 times. The only one I felt was at all sincere was when it came from one of the hotel staff. I of course responded "いいえいいえ" and she followed up saying "but your pronunciation is very good." It didn't feel necessarily patronizing when anyone else said it, but I don't think they really believed it to be true.
When a Japanese tell that to me, I always reply with " benkyou shiteimasu "
To be honest, you know your language is good, when native speaker doesn't compliment it. If they compliment it, they see your language is not native and they want to encourage you. If they don't compliment it, it probably means you are so fluent they didn't realize you are non native speaker :D
Fluency and a high language level is a different thing than being accent free or sounding like a native
I'm fluent and if I'm not doing something like language exchange online (I quit this cuz it was too annoying lol) I can pretend to be Japanese (in chat rooms or vr chat or other things) and they won't mention about my language ability at all and we generally just talk normally.
But in real life, they judge by appearance so if you're not Asian, you will get jyouzu'd no matter how good you are.
Even someone famous like Dogen who has a pronunciation better than most native speakers will get a jyouzu on occasions randomly if he goes somewhere where they don't know him already.
I mean, I'm a native and fluent English speaker and I've still received 'compliments' by White people for my fluency just because I'm African.
Thanks for sharing those Twitter account who complained about being complimented... I blocked them all.
コーヒー actually derives from a dutch word 'koffie', not an english one
Saying “ they got Nihongo Jozued”
is some serious good American English slang.
Sounds like something my Northern California friends would say.
Adding “ed”
to the end of certain words
“ we got suckered”
“
we got freaked”
I live for the Yuta Course plug.