The Founder of Modern Alternative Ancient History: IGNATIUS DONNELLY
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- Who was the first to come up with the idea that a continent-spanning civilization of high technology called Atlantis existed thousands of years ago in prehistoric times? Find out in this video about Ignatius Loyola Donnelly, a US Congressman, whose popular books, Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, and Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel, started a pseudohistorical movement that is thriving today.
CONTENTS
0:00 Introduction to Donnelly's Ideas
07:34 The Probability of Plato's Story
16:41 Deriving Myth from History
22:39 What Was Atlantis Like?
38:27 The Comet Impact
After viewing, come back to the notes here for further information.
This video is part of a 3-part series. For the other two parts, visit:
History With Cy: • Ancient Aliens! Atlant...
Atun-Shei Films: • How a Civil War-Era Po...
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► REFERENCES
Text of Atlantis: The Antediluvian World:
www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ataw/
Text of Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel:
www.sacred-texts.com/atl/rag/
On Plato's Story of Atlantis as Fiction:
sci-hub.do/10.1353/phl.1979.0005
Professor Miano's handy guide for learning, "How to Know Stuff," is available here:
www.amazon.com/How-Know-Stuff...
Follow Professor Miano on social media:
►FACEBOOK: / drdavidmiano
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"Give a foretaste?" Geez, buy me dinner first!
Comment posted 18 hours ago, video posted 30 minutes ago... TIME TRAVELLING CONFIRMED!!!
You're wrong about being known as the "Checkmate Lincolnites" guy, though, you're the Witchfinder General!
I want more "Checkmate Lincolnites" dammit! Stop commenting on videos and get back to the salt mines.
@@cobusvanstaden3706 It was on available to patreons first ;)
@@Siska0Robert no it's gotta be aliens.
That Egyptian themed tie is probably the best tie I ever seen.
I think we don't spend enough time recognising that Donnelly wrote for money - he found a formula that sold and got himself out of a financial hole.
The fact that his second book contradicts elements of his first would not trouble him nor his audience - it is a shame that folk fall for the easy story, when the actual stories of our development into societies is so marvellous and remarkable.
This was such a great collab
Find it interesting and important you guys fight back (with reason and humor) against all those crazy videos on youtube. I know from experience it's not healthy to fall into such pseudo crap. I suspect a reason people can fall into it has to do with mental health and drug abuse. I'm clean now but got into it during years I snorted too much speed.
as sexy as a giant symmetric hand axe even
It is, Stefan. I remember you making some debunking yourself, next time you should join in, it should be interesting. Btw, i am Bulgarian, if ever you come back to the Balkans i'd love to buy you a drink (or smoke).
Thanx to this collabo, I now have three favorite history channels on YT! Greatly appreciated!
Stefan, just wanted to thank you for your conversation with Dr. Miano! That was how I discovered his excellent channel. Keep up the good work, both of you!
I found Atlantis: The Antediluvian World in the library when I was in highschool. I read it. I didn’t know who Donnelly was at the time, and I took it at face value. There were a couple claims in the book which I repeated as facts for many years until Wikipedia came around… one day I looked up the book and read about the author and realized that I had made the classic error of believing what I read.
At the very least, my childhood interest in Atlantis lead me to a book about the Minoans, who are (were) real, and pretty cool.
Hey you were in High School; a lot of people think Sapiens (Harari) is non-fiction!
So awesome when science prevails. We have all been incorrect at some point, but acknowledgement is truly honourable. Love it
Don’t worry. People make that mistake with the Bible all the time.
Wikipedia is the absolute last thing a thinking person should use as the objective measure of truth or error concerning any matter.
@@clay5418 better than donnelly
Atun-shei brought me here and I am glad to say, I found another Person to subscribe to
Fantastic. Welcome!
Same here. Plus "History with Cy". It's a bit like christmas....
That is why I love when channels calab. Get to learn about great channels.
Having read books by Erich von Daniken as a teenager, Donnelly's methods seem... Familiar.
*The Bermuda Triangle* by Charles Berlitz was my jam. lol (cringe)
I think it is called plagiarism lol
@@jonstfrancis Well, von Däniken is known for, let's say, not crediting his sources properly.
Everyone knows it's better described in the historical documents of Battlestar Galactica
"And so say we all..."
4,500 from now an Ancient Aliens show will be citing BATTLESTAR GALACTICA as fact,
th-cam.com/video/WtUxDbWcVTc/w-d-xo.html
@@kitjohnson2767 As long as its the original version
So glad to see someone else standing up for the fact that Atlantis is a fictional setting for a political allegory... just as the Island of Lilliput was also for Swift's political allegory, "Gulliver's Travels." Well done, sir.
I still hope its real lol. But it does seem pretty obvious as a convenient plot device for a morality fable.
thoughts on Azores plateau theory?
@@waltonsmith7210
technically it could be both. romantic nationalists do that all the time
To call it a fact that it never existed is not being completely honest. There is quite a bit of proof coming out that it is completely possible that Atlantis could have existed. But there is no proof that it's "impossible" for it to have ever existed. So you shouldn't use the word "fact" when trying to explain any of this away, because it just doesn't fit.
There were definitely technologies around the 12,000yr time period that could be said to have matched that of ancient Egypt or maybe even Greece. Just look at Gobekli Tepe, Carahan Tepe, and Catalhoyuk. These all predate those two civilizations by at least five thousand years and some by as much as seven thousand years or more. There is also evidence that the seas were low enough back at that time period for there to have been a pretty large sized island to have been poking out of the Atlantic ocean right near the area where Atlantis was supposed to have been. And then there is also proof of a massive global catastrophe taking place that made the seas rise dramatically right around that time period as well. So badly that it would have caused possible tsunamis worldwide.
So while Donnelly may have been embellishing quite a bit and might be flat out wrong about some of what he's talking about, I still wouldn't be so bold as to say that Atlantis never existed and Donnelly was wrong about everything.
@@ManiacMayhem7256 there's nothing wrong with romantic nationalism. It keeps countries healthy and unified even if they sometimes make embellishments or keep a few hotbed issues tucked away so that the public isn't constantly infighting over them. It also makes people more proud of their history instead of using it to attack one another. And not all romanization is false. There's plenty of it that often turns out to be true, so there's no reason to make it seem wrong or as if it should be frowned upon. It's certainly better than having a country break apart and fall into chaos due to having no sense of itself or its people. Which I see happening quite often these days in many western nations due to their lack of national pride or love of their heritage and history.
Beating people over the head with opinionated views on past atrocities is never a healthy way to treat history. And it's definitely not a healthy way to keep a country United. If anything all it does is ensure that the future will have a constant black cloud hanging over it and you'll more than likely cause a few wars by not letting sleeping dogs lie.
Conspiracy theory: "Egypt had detailed written records that went back 10,000 years".
Me: "I cannot tell you the name of my great grandparents and I live in the information age".
This is because you live in a culture of writing.
(This is a joke.)
Is it weird I can name my patrilineal line back 5 generations?
@@machinist7230 Try that matrilineal
@@peterwindhorst5775
Excellent point!
Say what you will about Donnelly he definitely knew how to title books.
Ha he sure did!
I’ve said it before, but your “Mythbusting” videos are not only an invaluable resource when one unfortunately finds oneself dealing with “alternative” history fans but also immensely watchable and enjoyable too.
Please, keep ‘em coming David.
I'm so glad this collaboration happened, I don't know if it was a giant headache for you guys to do, but it brought me two new channels to subscribe to and hours more content to binge, so I'm glad you all did. I can't wait to look through the backlogs and also see what else you have in store for the future!
Welcome aboard!
Somehow or other this collaboration brought me three new channels to look through, a year after the fact.
What a great collaboration. Glad I have a couple of more channels to watch.
Good thing the first human was born with all the relevant knowledge needed to forge a society because we all know people are incapable of figuring anything out when confronted with a problem.
I think I know why the believers believe so strongly, "Play-doh is real and we've trusted it since we were children. Therefore history according to Play-do is as real and true as Play-doh itself." Or perhaps, more disturbingly, "It's on 'The History Channel' therefore it's real history." Given the clientele, these statements are not mutually exclusive. Thanks to Prof. Miano, Cy and Atun-Shei for this massive and very necessary move to enlighten the masses!
Wow, thank you Atun-Shei!! This channel is severely underrated! This guy needs to be on PBS Digital Studios!
Wow, thanks!
I have read the Timeaus and Critias and quite a bit of Plato's work and it is implicit in his telling of the Atlantis myth that it is indeed only ever meant to be an analogous morality tale, also read Donneley's Atlantis thesis; it was a fun ride, but full of holes. Thanks for this thorough fact filled and well reasoned debunking.
Well, I can't wait to see Donnelly's rebuttal video where he addresses this criticism, I guess we'll have to wait until the final installment in Plato's Atlantis trilogy to find out if Atlantis rises again. ;)
The old congressman did a fine job of placing a figleaf over the ludicrousness of his argument but on occasion it spills over into pure comedy. I could have stood to watch you continue address him, it was very entertaining. But even so, Donnelly's argument for the most part is no more worthwhile than someone telling you there's an invisible, ethereal pink elephant in a frock in the room with you both. For the outlandishness of his claims, he sure had a low bar for corroborative evidence... And that coin, that pushed the definition of "reaching"... It even had a date on it!! :D Really, really funny. Still chuckling at that one!
Good job all members of congress are such sensible, rational people these days. :)
Have you seen Randal Carlson’s evidence for Atlantis, it’s comprehensive and well thought out based on a lifetime of study in the scientific fields Geology and Astronomy along with breaking down Plato’s “actual” writings.
@@OMGAnotherday No, I'm interested in history so I haven't heard of Randal Carlson but I have seen the movie Aquaman which I'm sure is equally credible.
I have read Plato's Republic though. You know, the one where he has writes characters in a fictional setting who have conversations exploring philosophical ideas from different perspectives. It's called the Socratic Method. You might want to google that.
He was a very, very intelligent man so your comments make me wonder whether the ancient Greeks facepalmed or did they have another way of expressing disbelief when confronted with an idea of mind-blowing asininity. Perhaps, Prof. Miano knows.
@@davidmurphy563
✌️Regarding Plato, what I know of him, is that he was an original thinker first and foremost, which means he had his own specific ideas of the world (Plato’s cave etc), but when it came to Atlantis he was very specific that he was not the author and also very specific that he did not change any of what he was told.
Also I’m led to believe he was specifically told that neither did any of the previous messengers change any of the story.
Carlson (in my humble opinion) backs up what Plato says, but with the luxury of modern science, the myth seems not to be a myth.
The modern day problem we have is that there are 1,000’s of areas that have been put forward as Atlantis, but having read and listened to a lot of stuff regarding it, ultimately dismissing most of it, Randall Carlson’s scientific approach (and his insistence of sticking rigidly with Plato’s description as the clues) convinces me the most.
But it’s such a fascinating subject I’m always up for more.
👍🏼🌅
@@OMGAnotherday I'm very sorry you've been duped into believing such patent nonsense. If this "Plato said it so it must be literally true" is your standard of evidence then you must believe that Athens is ten thousand years old, that humans are a type of bird, that the womb can wander around a woman's body when it's vexed, that a city is a big person...
Listen, Plato made things up. He used myths as a device. He had characters make his arguments for him, Socrates was a real person but he never said what is in Plato's works, those were Plato's arguments. It wasn't like he was fooling people, everyone then and now knew this.
Even if Plato was trying to make a literal historical claim (he wasn't) then why on Earth should we believe him?! How would he have know what happened tens of thousands of years before him?
Atlantis is absurd. Like Bigfoot is absurd. Like the flat earth is absurd.
Stop wasting your time on nonsense and learn some real history - you know, stuff that actually happened - it's _much_ more interesting and happens to be true.
@@davidmurphy563
I’m sorry that you are not prepared to look at any other evidence.
Your loss!
I'm always entertained by the argument that similarity in art/tradition/etc indicates a similar origin. Of course they share a similar origin:
Humans.
I’d like to do a Brien Foerster style tour with Dr Dave, Raven De Silva and the Russian Scientists as we go to Atlantis Hotel Casino and explore their “Aaaah-mazing Summer” package and search for the ever elusive straight-flush.
Donnelley was supposing a farming society that had no surviving crops, despite being of universal reach. American crops are radically different from Eurasian crops, which are different from African crops.
Confession：When I took a Philosophy class in university I actually asked the professor if the Dialogues were real conversations. He simply said No and moved on. Thank you for explaining why it is so.
Simple yes or no answers don't always cut it.
I know I said this in the comment section of another one of your videos, but it bears repeating: I gotta thank Atun-Shei Films for leading me to your content.
I enjoy linking this channel on the comment sections of conspiracy theory channels. If I can get one person to watch an actually educational video, I've done something.
What the world needs is a conversation between professor Miano and Ben from Uncharted X, moderated by Matt from ancient architects. Miano will represent the mainstream and he’ll have to be patient and open minded but critical, Matt is very open minded and entertains the mainstream but also asks questions. and ben would never agree to do it because he has an agenda to push, but he’d be representing the fringe. Both sides can phone a friend. This would be epic.
Great job again. Thanks.
Nick Zentner has a great series on the geology of Pacific Northwest and the many flooding events. Given it’s guaranteed the popular version will be dropped in the comments I highly recommend his presentations.
They have a lot of evidence that is missing, or dismissed with a hand wave, by those who promote Donnelly.
If you’ve been around this area you’ll why Pacific Northwest geology is so important to this topic. It’s one of those “what about” “therefore” lost high tech “therefore” Atlantis copy pastes in every comment section.
Nick's got a ton of great content. His personal channels are pretty new, so make sure to check the Central Washington University channel if you're having trouble finding these.
Great series. I'm so glad you hooked up with History with Cy, I love his channel. The other guy was good too!
The savior of the History channel. God bless him!
Great channel. Glad to see someone taking some of these theories head-on. As atun-shei said in his video, academia has a responsibility to fight this specific kind of falsification of history. As someone who briefly believed some parts of that history but was able to see the rabbit-hole it leads to, I appreciate people putting effort into fighting these cancerous beliefs.
What rabbit hole does it lead to?
Whats weird to me is the physical evidence that could only be accomplished with impressive tools, but no tools capable were ever found. Like a huge copper saw to cut large stone, theres no huge copper saws found, but to cut all the stone that they did there must have been 10’s of thousands of huge copper saws in use over the thousand years that Egypt was building mind boggling stuff. Not a single huge copper saw was found. Or a stone shaping method that could be done efficiently. Pounding stones? People must have been pounding 8 hours a day then rotating shifts thru the night, it would take forever. No one knows how these things were built. Thats why people point to Atlantis as a possibility. Then you realize theres not really any evidence for it, so then they point to aliens. The only thing we can do if we want to actually learn anything, is go to college, get a masters in genetics, biology, archeology, geology, astronomy, and Egyptology and then you can look at all the evidence with your own knowledge and then maybe you’ll get somewhat close to the truth. Other than that we can watch people on youtube. This guy is comforting, the theorists are more entertaining, the people that watch this guy think theyre smarter (they are im sure) but the theorists do have some good points that no one has the answers to.
@@Digital__rb people in modern America break into houses and steal copper pipes for the scrap value of the metal. In future ages somebody will argue that the American empire never possessed indoor plumbing and point to the absence of copper pipes, please don't believe them. Likewise, the absence of enormous copper saw today doesn't disprove their existence or use cutting stones in ancient Egypt, or Atlantis.
@@matthewcampbell7412 i think the “they got stolen/eroded/reused is a weak argument” there would have been thousands of huge copper saws. Better argument is we just havnt found them yet, earth is huge, we’ve barely scratched the surface
There are some platonic dialogues that skew a little closer to "non-fiction". Some of his earliest dialogues, for example the Apology, is probably actually representative of things Socrates said. But, the Critias and the Timaeus are absolutely not in this category lol
3 of my favorite TH-camrs collaborating? Hell yes!
LOL OK.
The Galactic Milankovitch cycles cause our climate cycles of East to West Global tsunami's that freeze onto the continents forming the continental glaciers with lower sea levels.
Every 13,000 years 130 lifetimes if you will our solar system crosses over our galaxies Electromagnetic/gravitational plane/equator, NOW; for the next MILLENIA.
In the MILLENIA it takes for our solar system to cross the galactic plane we are going to experience EM plasma bursts, Asteroid impacts due to crossing the galaxies Kuiper's belt, and East to West Global Tsunami's from the increased EM/gravity while crossing over the galactic plane.
The last time we crossed over the galaxies equator was the Younger Dryas layer or When Gobekli tepe was buried under 15 meters of 19 sedimentary layers covering 9 hectares spanning MILLENIA.
The Galactic Milankovitch cycles cause our climate cycles of continental glaciers with lower sea levels brought on by E-W global tsunami's.
Covid like CO2 is a LIE strawman built upon an INCONVENIENT truth. The Baby Boomers who were born en mass 75 years ago are starting to die from the usual suspects of seasonal FLu/Pneumonia and old age. The covidiot mask of the BEAST is just a pretext for the final solution Vaccine of the beast. No Buying or Selling with out the mask/mark of the beast. Revelations 13 16-18. This has all happened before some 12,000 years ago.
Jesus loved all races because there is only one race the HUMAN race with only one minority the INDIVIDUAL human. Your being divided to be conquered by the DNA family.
I absolutely love the energy you bring to your videos 😊👨🏫
Thank you!
Hello sir. I have spent the better part of two days consuming your videos on the Myths of Ancient History topic. I want to thank you for this important work. It's been many years since I began exploring the theories surrounding the pre younger dryas civilization hypothesis and adjacent theories, including debunkings of the claims, but this series of videos was perhaps the most informative and convincing yet.
Although I've never supported the hypothesis, there were always some arguments that, even if I applied my most stringent standard of skepticism, left a fair amount of doubt in the accepted explanations. Some of them you did cover to a satisfactory degree, but some of the most interesting are yet unexplored on this channel. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on:
1. The quarrying methods of the unfinished obelisk at Aswan.
2. The global nature of prehistoric megalithic architecture, with common features such as knobs, and impressive mortar-less seals.
3. Theories of artistic connections between Gobekli Tepe and Australian Aborigines, as well as the supposedly Egyptian hieroglyphs in Australia.
I also recommend the "Ancient Architects" channel as a target for responses to his video essays. Of all the ancient lost technology types, this author legit tries his best to do research, apply reason, and has changed his mind a number of times. Though he is definitely naturally drawn to kooky subjects and claims, he has ultimately concluded that the classical timeline of construction of ancient Egyptian monuments is mostly correct, after years of arguing the opposite. He also tends to engage with good faith criticisms of his work. I think there's a lot of potential for quality content here.
Once again thank you for your work, and good luck to your channel!
I am actually on good terms with Ancient Architects. Check out my handbags videos for a consideration of his older material. Thank you for your kind words, and I will keep your recommendations in mind.
quality reply here - thanks 🎉
Congratulation on 10k subs! And thank you for another great video and for introducing me to a couple of good channels!
Thanks very much!
Great content ~ thanks so much for taking the time to go through these types of claims so methodically & sensibly!
Love to see a great deep dive into this by two of my favorite history TH-camrs and introduced to Cy's channel! Never knew the modern Atlantis myth had such American origins.
"Similarity mining" is a great term. Maybe something like p-hacking for qualitative contexts.
I’ll give Donnelly some credit, he remembered Atlantis was more Egyptian than Greek which is more than I can say for most fiction about Atlantis.
this was a lot of fun. ill have to follow up with the other two videos. thanks as always. 🎉
The soundest and illustrative discussion I ever seen and greatly appreciate the light it shed. Great collaboration. Congratulations
Glad you enjoyed it!
I didn't need to be convinced but I watched the three videos anyway because I was curious about this whole collaboration. It was very entertaining and allowed me to find out about this channel, which I am now subscribed. Regarding Donnelly, I had a very different idea of him before watching videos 2 and 3. I imagined him being a simple charlatan and/or a fool. However, I think he was kind of a nice man, and also I was surprised at how much knowledge he actually had. Not to mention the ammount of thought he put into that work. I believe he convinced himself of actually being into something. So, he wasn't a charlatan, nor he was an idiot. He was just wrong and his problem was "human". Speaking in general, we all have a confirmation bias. But yeah, before the internet and all that, this man surely knew a whole lot about the wold, and wrote some impressive sci-fi book without knowing it. I mean, the argument itself is fascinating. So, hmm... Even with all this pseudoscience problem we're having, we don't need to hate or discredit this man. The problem wasn't that he was wrong, the problem is us.
I tend to agree. Thank you for coming by!
quality reply - i havent watched the other two videos as yet - thanks 🎉
A clear presentation of where many of the alternative history beliefs currently pushed came from, Graham Hancock, Randall Carson, ect.
Donnelly's use of the term: "the primitive mind" involuntarily brings to my own mind the term: "projection".
Great video, thanks, and I'll certainly look after the two others (I follow Atun-Shei as well).
I must say, and I'll sound naive I guess, I had no idea that those "alternative history" ideas were so prevalent to this day (I don't watch History Channel, that must be why). I knew of quite a lot of those hypotheses, dating back to readings from when I was a teenager and fascinated by "the mysteries of the past", and then later when I discovered science-fiction and fantasy; ancient astronauts and lost continents certainly were not unknown to me, especially as they generated good sci-fi and fantasy stories, and I would never blame, I don't know, Lovecraft or Howard for using those themes in their fictions. I knew there were some who took all these stories very seriously (I know for instance there was that strange time when French surrrealists discovered Lovecraft and put him in the same category of readings as essays about the giants of Atlantis, ancient astronauts or ufology, beyond theosophical "sources" etc.), but that there were still now and maybe more than ever people actually believing in such fantasies and ready to fight tooth and nail against "mainstream archaeology", that came as a schock to me when I discovered recently your channel and some others before. These are strange times, although I guess a damn' MAINSTREAM HISTORIAN would say all times are strange (and I'd agree because I'm obviously part of the Conspiracy).
As for Atlantis, the fact that so many people nowadays still take this myth for actual history, disregarding about anything in Plato's life and works that doesn't fit their narrative, is quite... frightening, I would say.
Once I've read an interesting book by Pierre Vidal-Naquet on the historiography, let's say, of the myth of Atlantis; although that wasn't one of his major works, by far, it was worth reading. And there I've learnt of many people prior to Donnelly, such as Olof Rudbeck, who had strange theories about Atlantis... although not that strange actually, the purpose was almost always to locate Atlantis where it would be useful to claim that one's civilisation is the child of this original one and therefore the best of all (Rudbeck claimed that Atlantis was actually Sweden, and all languages derived form Swedish), even if Atlantis is "the bad guy" in Plato's dialogues. I guess Donnelly is taken as "the father of alternative history" for his global retelling and the central idea of an ancient advanced civilisation, but that leaves room for questions, I think: did Donnelly's "works" differ that much from those of those authors? And was there in his claims something as well of a nationalistic narrative? You didn't tell about this (maybe Atun-Shei does), but I would be actually quite surprised if it wasn't the case.
Anyway, sorry for this long and quite useless comment, great video, great channel, keep up the good work.
Thank you! And I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.
Never heard about Rudbeck! Thanks. But I think that Donnelly was most influenced by Mayanism.
You're getting so close to 10k subs!!! 🤩🤩🤩
lovely ab as always. Looking forward to more collaborations Dr Miano.
This just came up in my recommendeds and I’m shocked I haven’t seen it before! Lovely video
I will add that the man Critias who talks in detail about Atlantis and Athens in the dialogue of the same name was likely the relative of Plato named Critias who was one of the so-called Thirty Tyrants set up in Athens by the Spartans after Athens lost a war with Sparta and during their, mercifully brief, rule over Athens they murdered thousands of citizens and non-citizens in a reign of terror. Critias was apparently the most blood thirsty of the lot. So Plato putting a description of Atlantis and Athens into his mouth is shall we say interesting. Further this dialogue occurred during a festival in Athens that celebrated the telling of edifying but not necessarily true stories. Finally Critias wrote a play in which one of the characters talks about telling lying tales to control people being a good thing.
Great work Professor! Did you say a mythbust every month? That will get you over 10,000 subscribers, can't wait till the next one!
that was really good, dude. like seriously well done.
Very glad to have Subscribed.
Long time fan of Atun-Shei and Cy's.
Welcome!
A very interesting video, and a new TH-cam history channel for me to subscribe to! Are you the Dr. David Miano who edited Pen, Stylus, and Chisel, by chance? Because my Ancient Egypt course in undergrad used that, and your name sounded familiar. If so, awesome! What a small world!
Yep, that's me!
6:10 I dunno why but point 10 makes no sense (none of them do) but like how do you go from Phoenician to Mayan? They have literally nothing in common like... At all.
Also do these people not know what the hell parables are?
Seeing how many people still believe in the "Protocols", I don't think Maurice Joly intended that with "Dialogue aux enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu". Parables don't work if the receiving end is.....erm.....not fully capable of abstract thinking... ;-)
I'm into alternate history to some degree and I have to say belief in Atlantis is a great way to separate the wheat from the chaff!
Platos stories make me think of something I heard from the movie V for vendetta. Where the main character Evey Hammond mentions her father quoting "artist's use lies to tell the truth". I suppose Plato really was one of those artists. Kinda humbling to think about.
From archeology we do know that some of the stuff he brings up as common between the Americas and Afroeurasia genuinely is technology that does predate populating the Americas.
Clothing: Estimated 170,000 years ago (based on DNA evidence of clothing lice)
Sewing needle: 50,000 years ago (possibly used by a Denisovan and not a Homo Sapien).
Bags: hard to find a source that even tries to date these, but containers that hold things are old.
Bow and Arrow: 72,000 to 60,000 years ago (For oldest found arrowheads in Africa)
Boats: 900,000+ years ago, believed to be older than Homo Sapiens
Domestication of the dog: Between 30,000 and 14,000 years ago (which based on DNA evidence entered North America 10,000 years ago)
Domestication of plants (specifically the "Bottle Gourd" a pre-pottery way of making jars, known to be used in Asia, start getting grown in the Americas 8,000 years ago).
So...technically some of these ideas, including the idea for domestication of plants AND animals (though not every domesticated plant and animal), arrow heads, clothing, and boats most likely WERE actually shared...but shared by hunter gatherers migrating and doing trade, NOT shared by a single world-conquering empire.
Other technology seems to have developed independently (such as writing systems). But certainly have older predecessors (cave paintings).
Ah, I didn't realize this! I assumed some of these were invented independently. Thank you for sharing.
@@WorldofAntiquity there's a study in which people with no skills try to chip rock to make tools. Literally all of the 20+ participants were able to independently make up methods that are similar to some known from early Stone Age. So that suggests that independent origin is quite likely for most early technologies.
"aren't they transmitted by one person, from teacher to student?" which is a group setting.
"from parent to child" no, i don't think that happens.
"the geography and chronology of a myth can't be relied upon. then that would apply to plato's myth of atlantis"
that was dirty
Yay new video!! 🙌
To moment you grasp the concept of stratigraphy Alternative Ancient History goes out the window.
Bravo! Well done. Let's hope Graham Hancock comes across this.
This stuff is interesting to me from an anthropology perspective. People prefer fun stories to the often dull variables that determine history, and this impulse has certainly mangled historical narratives since forever. Consider the history channel. Hancocks have always been with us.
The only "but" I'd add to this....
Amateur historical enthusiasts will occasionally stumble upon something that pros haven't considered. Consider Heinrich Schliemann. His critics were making many of the same arguments that you're making: The Illiad and Odyssey were legends and unreliable considering how much time had passed between the oral telling and when it was written down, etc. And yet....
It can happen that axiomatic presuppositions of history pros are off.
Or think of Hindu nationalists in India, where their version of history has now become official in many universities and is included in primary school text books. Someone in India who concludes that all of those Indo-European languages and genes didn't come from India is now an "alternative historian."
It's good to _consider_ alternative histories, but....yano..... most people don't possess your x-man level logic and boss beard.
You make a decent point, and I agree that it's probably a good thing that academics get challenged. (I do, however, disagree about India. Even though the currently nationalist government has changed the textbooks, from what I have been able to tell, the vast majority of scholars, even in India, are not on board with the "Out of India" theory.)
@@WorldofAntiquity
That's good to know. I just made a video poking fun at hindu nationalist historians. Keep up the great work!
FYI the idea that Schliemann was the only person who believed in the existence of "Homeric" Troy is pretty much a myth. He was hardly the first man to try to find it, and Frank Calvert identified the site of Troy years before Schliemann did.
@@KSEG
Academic opinion at the time was overwhelmingly against the idea that Troy had ever existed
@@Crumbsyums For the classical Troy, nobody doubted it's existence. Even at the time literal, epigraphic and arcaheological evidence were overwhelming. As for the pre-classical, bronze age Troy, some doubted it's existence but most believed that a city which inspried Homer must have existed. The debate was primarily over where the pre-classical Troy was. And again, Frank Calvert correctly identifeid the site before Schliemann did. Schliemann was a showman; he was very concious about how to make a good story out of his action. This whole "nobody believed in the existence of Troy but Schliemann alone did" thing is a myth he actively disseminated while he was still alive.
I love the argument of "x culture would not make up y, they must have seen it" or "our ancestors weren't stupid, they were describing what they saw" as if fiction or parable does not exist and the power of human imagination isn't one of our best tools
Wow!! you just blew my mind with your statement: How come such an incredible several millennia old story like the civilization of Atlantis was only told by ONE person!!
I'm flabbergasted how I never thought of such a simple yet so powerful argument against the existence of Atlantis.
This gonna be great!
Btw, could you please consider looking into the mudflood and Tartarian proponents who claim that we just took over all the buildings and marvelous architecture that exists? They claim that all the spires on the buildings were somehow generating energy or transmitting something from the air. I find them quite annoying, but they have a huge following.
I hadn't heard about this!
@@WorldofAntiquity I follow these communities for a long time and I'm writing a little introduction into how it emerged and what are the main claims, if you're interested. But I'm afraid that it's almost too crazy to even address on such a great channel...
I really enjoyed that. I am also pleased you have reminded people that Plato was a genius philosopher. Even after millenia, we all know the morality tale of what might happen if you get greedy, mean, and to big for your boots. Massive respect to Plato.
When it comes to similarities around the world there is a very well known quote.."a beaver in Europe will build a dam the same way as one in the US...but they never speak to each other"
Massive thanks David and i will check out the companion vids from your contributors...peace to ya.
I found you whilst suffering from covid and have never looked back.
Funnily I had already checked a Like on the previous two videos on this subject ... But I watched them again anyway to refresh 🙂
"Ragnarok: The Age of Fire And Gravel." Instead of writing pseudo-history books, Donnelly should have made a career naming heavy metal albums.
In defense of Donnely and his amazing liberal use of facts to cook up his stories, I would state that only recently to him people had started to be interested in these kinds of things and Troy had been found just a few decades before that. That this madness is still going around is the worrying part.
What are the Aliens?
You should have a little more faith in humanity or vice versa humanities desire to be kings queens and Demigods.
The Galactic Milankovitch cycles cause our climate cycles of East to West Global tsunami's that freeze onto the continents forming the continental glaciers with lower sea levels.
Every 13,000 years 130 lifetimes if you will our solar system crosses over our galaxies Electromagnetic/gravitational plane/equator, NOW; for the next MILLENIA.
In the MILLENIA it takes for our solar system to cross the galactic plane we are going to experience EM plasma bursts, Asteroid impacts due to crossing the galaxies Kuiper's belt, and East to West Global Tsunami's from the increased EM/gravity while crossing over the galactic plane.
The last time we crossed over the galaxies equator was the Younger Dryas layer or When Gobekli tepe was buried under 15 meters of 19 sedimentary layers covering 9 hectares spanning MILLENIA.
The Galactic Milankovitch cycles cause our climate cycles of continental glaciers with lower sea levels brought on by E-W global tsunami's.
Covid like CO2 is a LIE strawman built upon an INCONVENIENT truth. The Baby Boomers who were born en mass 75 years ago are starting to die from the usual suspects of seasonal FLu/Pneumonia and old age. The covidiot mask of the BEAST is just a pretext for the final solution Vaccine of the beast. No Buying or Selling with out the mask/mark of the beast. Revelations 13 16-18. This has all happened before some 12,000 years ago.
Jesus loved all races because there is only one race the HUMAN race with only one minority the INDIVIDUAL human. Your being divided to be conquered by the DNA family.
@@GregoryJByrne But what about them 👽
Ok, I'm going to head over to History with Cy, and then I'll be back.
Love the logic! Thanks!
Wait... his name is Andy? This collab has been really educational. Learning a lot.
So im a "Atlantis Guy" but your video lead me to actually check out Plato's writing (something that i can only assume many Atlantis "fans" dont do) and i think i have this straight; Plato is writing a report from Critias whos recalling a story from his grandfather who got a story from Solon who got the story from Egyptian Priests.....
Its a nice idea but im thinking Atlantis is a bunch a woo....
Im a lil sad now lol.
Why would that stop you from thinking Atlantis was possible? Even to this day official journalists and even more average-joes are compelled to record via writings or videos the accounts of 'celebrities' and people they dont know, never have or never will meet; living or deceased. Too often people tell stories of "i have a friend that..." to eachother; its not farfetched to suppose it is possible that Solon, a man of renown in his day and those after, got an account from egypt and told friend or family & it got passed along until recorded. In the dialogue it claims Solon didnt write it down bc of more important matters to handle within the society or he would have been considered a better poet than homer etc. So IF Plato learned of this story, which critias claims numerous times is a true story, and that Solon himself didnt get to complete a written account, why not write it down to preserve an account by a 'celebrity of his day solon' that was not yet recorded?
@@jamesonpejudge You should probably pay attention to the video you're actually commenting on. Plato's story of Atlantis was a political allegory meant to convey a philosophical message and deluding yourself into thinking that any of it was meant to be interpreted as an objective historical record is utterly ridiculous. For many reasons - but primarily the fact that Plato was a political philosopher and not a historian.
Also, saying the story has to be true because the narrator repeatedly states that it's a true story is literally on par with saying "Source: Because I said so." By that logic, the Cohen Brothers film _Fargo_ MUST be a historical drama about real events that really happened because it opens with text that reads "This is a true story."
This is what happens when all your knowledge of Plato's writings comes from conspiracy blogs and ancient aliens TH-cam videos by people who've done a little too much DMT instead of the actual works of Plato and Political Philosophy courses that focus on his works.
@@dildonius you should probably pay attention. I was commenting on someones statement, not the video. Asking a basic question; why would that specific detail of who told who the story be farfetched.
And it is possibly an allegory, or it is possibly some kind of historic account, likely embellished. To claim it is known to be an allegory is as ridiculous as saying Atlantis 100% fact existed; we simply do not know and are interpreting what we think he was talking about with what information we have on some1 who is long gone. We know his writing quite well a can say he was a political philosopher; sites of older human constructions are being found leading some to suggest civilization by whatever name may be older than currently accepted. Why cant both be possible?
It seems youre a 'know it all' thats easily triggered. You presume my sources, stance and overall ideas whilst knowing nothing of them and try parroting the same offenses a million others have already said. real original thinker!
@@jamesonpejudge No, dude. It is objectively an allegorical story. As this video makes ABUNDANTLY clear. Which is why you should, again, actually pay attention to its contents.
Love your stuff finally someone down to earth and uses proof and evidence
They will call you sheep for believing mainstream but they believe everything with little to no evidence.
Good video. I didn't realize it mainly went back to this guy. Have to give him credit though for thinking like this ...makes us all question and revisit what we think we know.
Donnelly looks like an old timer Tucker Carlson
Damn. 3am and I was just about to sleep. Oh well.
Loving ur vids too mate, keep it up! 👊
@@eddiefreakinmunson cheers, been dragging my feet on posting but will drop some soon.
@Dino Legovich if I don’t comment here Zawi Hawass will dock my stipend.
great post!!
Thank you !! this is great !!
I am working on the same direction, in Europe.
I don't normally post twice on one upload but i wanted to say congratulations for smashing the 10k sub thing. That is a milestone for anyone on YT. If you are not able to patreon, please hit the like button, post a comment, like and post on other comments you read, turn off your adblocker if you use one. All these things are just as important (no, i am not related to anyone in World of Antiquity)...i just want this channel to flourish...peace to ya.
Already sub'd with History With Cy. Will check out companion vid. As for Atlantis being 9000 prior (ca 9400 BCE): no archeological evidence of agriculture in Greece until 7000 BCE. No evidence anyone speaking PIE in Greece 9000 years prior; the PIE "out of Anatolia" hypothesis puts Proto-Greek no earlier than agriculture.
The video was so good, I could have watched for hours!
Like many of the other folks commenting on here, I'm also very appreciative of the work you're doing here. It's nice to have these points given in such a clear manner. Around 25:20, you skim near one of the few 'alternative histories' that I've been partial to for many years, (by partial, I mean I like to imagine it's true, I'm not sold). You mention how the Greeks didn't know about the Americas, which is the strongest argument supported by the evidence of course (especially the maps hahah!). However, a historian publishing in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, Ivan Van Sertima, made some interesting arguments that I'd love for you to dedicate a video towards. His most famous book is "They Came Before Columbus:"
Two of his principal 'alternative' arguments, which hopefully I'm remembering correctly right now, are that in two separate eras, travelers/explorers from Africa arrived in Central America pre-Columbus. The first, (I'm really condensing here) comprised a team-up of Phoenicians and Nubians/Egyptians around the 800s BCE, who both wanted to resist Neo-Assyrian subjugation, and both needed more tin to improve their armaments. They tried to go to NW Europe to get some with a small fleet, but got caught in the westbound Atlantic current that Columbus rode in on, (presumably a storm) and ended up in Central America. They were stuck there, but spread basic metallurgy and other innovations. He thinks the Nubians were the subjects for the Olmec heads, and one thing he pointed out was the matching scarification styles found on those statues, he argues they match what were popular scar styles in North Africa at the time.
The second trip is his answer for the lost expedition lead by Mansa Musa's uncle, and ruling predecessor, Sundiata. This 2nd trip, Van Sertima argues, got caught in the same current, (which to my understanding means they were blown WAY north, but ok), and added to the Meso-American deification of folks coming across from the eastern ocean.
He makes some other points to support both these claims. I find this storyline charming even if it's not ever possibly proven, but would love to know if you know it's provably NOT true.
Then I can quit thinking that it's maybe the answer to the only mystery that holds up in that silly book 1421: The Year China discovered America. I used to joke with the professor in charge of my graduate committee, Dr. Tracy Steele, that even though the rest of that book is goofy, the fact that Asian black feathered chickens show up in South American excavations before European colonials had a chance to set up the China/Europe silver exchange in Mexico City is so far unanswered, (maybe it has been and I missed it!). She always would say, 'yeah, yeah, the chickens." Sorry to go on so long, but I think it could be a great video!
I'm aware of the 'White Gods in the New World?' video, but I believe Van Sertima's ideas are distinct enough to merit a specific debunking.
A great video!. For me, it's too much to consume from a single view :-D
No problem! There are sections, so you can watch it piecemeal.
Fascinating, I've never heard of this fellow. Thank you for debunking fake history!
Wow, I never knew of Donnely but I was born and raised in Minnestoa. And after hearing of who he was and what he cliams. Realize that my take is extremely close to his. Perhaps there is something in the water and Minnesota has a lot of water.
Your History Zin is strong young man! I was especially impressed with the way that you brought in others to corroborate! Thank you!
People saw the etchings of Cartherwood of the lost Maya and all sorta ideas went off - "Lost tribes of Israel", "Book Of Mormon" stuff, Atlantian stuff, etc. But nobody at first took note that those ancient profiles depicted in stone sure looked like the people living still near by.
Checkmate Atlantians!
he was ahead of his time, the first internet researcher in the library of Congress
Dam what a line up I love all of these channels
Just going off memory here, but if anyone is confused by Poseidon's mixed land-sea domain, it's been theorized that Poseidon was once a cthonic god--an underworld deity--in Mycenaean culture, specifically the god of the rivers of the underworld and perhaps the chief deity. He retained his underworld flavor by remaining the god of earthquakes.
I could easily see anyone who's ever been around a herd of stampeding horses (or a detachment of war chariots, as the case may be) making a connection between that and Poseidon, but that's just wild speculation on my part.
I've read his book and I will say that the claims of people like him shouldn't simply be ignored or dismissed out of hand, if only because doing so is high handed and sloppy. But also because such people can be asking important questions or make a good point or two as well as the fact the wild claims made by such people are fun and can easily spark a interest in actual ancient history.
Agreed. That is why I made this video.
Great Channel. Would love to hear your thoughts on Anthony Peratts paper regarding petroglyphs and their possible connection to a mass coronal ejection. If time ever allowed for it. Anyway love the content hope you can keep it up.
I had not heard of this guy but this makes a lot of sense.
Hey! Woo hoo you hit 10k! That means you’re “monetized”, right? That extra $.37 a day will add up!
Im pleased you used the word “hypothesis” rather than “theory”. Theory is used far too much to undermine science nowadays.
Came here from Atun-Shei. Really good video. I’m not an ancient history buff (mostly interested in early 20th century history) but this was super informative and interesting. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you for stopping by!
Donnelly heavily influenced the Nazi Atlantis aryan ubermench myth. So there you go ties right into 20th century history. 👍
Ah, the OG ancient history fanfic writer :)
So graham hancock is just repeating this guys work. 😂
Literally 🤣 got me good