How a Civil War-Era Politician Invented Atlantis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 พ.ค. 2021
- In the late 1870s, a former congressman named Ignatius Donnelly sat down to write a book about Atlantis. His ideas went on to singlehandedly kickstart the modern obsession with Plato's mythical lost city, and inspired countless other related conspiracy theories. Today, he's regarded as the father of pseudoarchaeology.
With the expert help of fellow history TH-camrs @HistorywithCy and @WorldofAntiquity, I explore the legend of Atlantis through the lens of Ignatius Donnelly's life and legacy. Though informed more by his own distaste with Gilded Age America than any legitimate archaeological evidence, Donnelly's feverish theories have enjoyed remarkable longevity - in fact, you've probably heard one or two of them on the History Channel.
Be sure to check out these related videos:
"Ancient Aliens! Atlantis! What is Pseudoarchaeology?" by History with Cy: • Ancient Aliens! Atlant...
"The Founder of Modern Alternative Ancient History: Ignatius Donnelly" by World of Antiquity: • The Founder of Modern ...
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~REFERENCES~
[1] "Paranormal America 2018: Chapman University Survey of American Fears" (2018). blogs.chapman.edu/wilkinson/2...
[2] Martin Ridge. Ignatius Donnelly: The Portrait of a Politician (1962). University of Chicago Press, Page 2-12
[3] Zac Farber. "Ignatius Donnelly: Paranoid Progressive in the Gilded Age" (2018). Minnesota Lawyer minnlawyer.com/2018/05/30/ign...
[4] Ridge, Page 33
[5] Martin Ridge. "Ignatius Donnelly: Minnesota Congressman, 1863-1869" (1959). Minnesota History Magazine collections.mnhs.org/MNHistor...
[6] Ridge, Page 67
[7] Humphrey Doermann. "All my Immense Labor for Nothing" (1961). American Heritage Magazine www.americanheritage.com/all-...
[8] Edward H. Abrahams. "Ignatius Donnelly and the Apocalyptic Style" (1978). Minnesota History Magazine collections.mnhs.org/MNHistor...
Be sure to check out these companion videos to learn more!
► History with Cy breaks down the concept of pseudoarchaeology: th-cam.com/video/c2Qmi3v7Iaw/w-d-xo.html
► World of Antiquity debunks Donnelly's Atlantis theories: th-cam.com/video/Au3K3zd44Kw/w-d-xo.html
By the way, if you like ancient history, Cy's channel is a goldmine. And if you enjoy listening to a friendly mild-mannered academic BTFO pseudoscientists with evidence and reason, then World of Antiquity is for you.
What’s Mardi Gras like in New Orleans?
Dude, this channel NEEDS MORE ATTENTION. It should have well over a million subs. This information IS IMPORTANT.
Your presentation is perfect, and very easy to digest.
You’re academically solid, and wonderfully trained in the art of satire.
I’m trying to help you get more because I believe in you, and you deserve every penny you make from the amount of effort you put in to making these videos.
Do you believe that the Indo-Aryan invasion happened?
There is considerable evidence, but I won't pretend to be an authority.
@@colonelkernel2959 That's a different topic than what I talk about in the video. "Indo-Europeans existed and migrated across Eurasia" is a completely different hypothesis from "Scandinavians built the pyramids" which is what Himmler believed.
There'd better be a nazi archeologist in this video!
The reason we can't find Atlantis is because General Sherman burned it to the ground
The "is" was blurry
Or, ocean in their case
Yes ,the bastard hates Cities with A.
map misprint?
@Undead Brett Nothing like a Rebel merman from Southatlantis.😆
“It’s too detailed to be a fictional story!”
*J.R.R. Tolkien has entered the chat*
❤❤❤
You mean Tolkien's works aren't actual accounts of ancient Earth translated from the original High Elven language?
@Mikko Simonen I'll have you know it was translated from the common tongue, the Westron, not Quenya. Definitely real languages that descend from the very real places of Valinor and Numenor. After all it was revealed to Tolkien in a dream.
@@nimnimn6930 It was actually revealed to him by someone discovering the Red Book of Westmarch, and the English translations thereof. ;)
I know exactly where to find incontrovertible proof of the existence of Middle Earth but nobody wants to fund my excavation. The closed minds of academia can't handle the Truth!
"If Atlantis doesn't exist, why did Plato so thoroughly describe it as if it were real?" Do they really think worldbuilders and good fiction makers only existed recently lol
because the place is real. not " Atlantis"
Yes. People like Grahmn Hancock and that maniac from Ancient Aliens often make the asinine claim that ancient people were incapable of imagining things they hadn’t seen before.
Almost as silly as thinking that non-European cultures only made their cool shit thanks to Aliens
2000 years from now: "But if Thanos wasn't real then how come there are references in media of the time as if he was real?"
@@Treblaine Historians 2000 years from now : "It appears Thanos was a very influential and yet controversial figure in 2000s AD society, with many arguing whether what he did was wrong or right (Though historians aren't sure what "it" was). He also appears to be a political or religious leader of some sort, as evidence appears of him doing something called Dance of the Default (Likely a religious ritual) in a symposium called Fortnite (Likely a misspelling of the word for two weeks. Also seems to be a gathering place for important figures of the age. Other notable attendees seem to include Iron Man, Travis Scott and the Emperor of the time, Palpatine) in front of millions of followers and worshippers."
"It's too detailed to be fake!"
-a man, chained in a cave, making the argument his shadow is a real person.
Of course Atlantis is real, it's the capital of Georgia
banger
Um, excuse me but Atlantis is that gambling city in New Jersey 🙄
@@vannah12222 no dummy it's the book with all the maps in it
@@vannah12222 no no, it's the guy who shrugged.
It’s located in the Bahamas and it’s a very pricy hotel
Plato claiming Atlantis was real is like the ancient Greek equivalent of "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. "
Yeah. That's the weirdest, saying that a story is real is a common thing in literature. Just like Plato's Critias, Don Quixote has the same plot of saying that the story comes from found writings, but no one says it's true
It is then purely coincidential that all the peoples living in different ages in different places talk exactly about the same place, and the exact same history. The "plato just made it up for a metaphor" is the new trend for completely ignorant people. The people who believe this argument have not read Timaeus and don't know how many other famous people talked about Atlantis before and after Plato.
@@bithundr They didn't, though. Literally no record or mention of Atlantis exists from any other civilization that would, logically, have been able to interact with the Atlanteans. If Atlantis was real, then it was damned good at going unnoticed by almost literally everyone on the planet apart from the characters talking about it.
@@bithundr As a teen, I too believed in Atlantis, but then I learned to read & understand actual history & archeology. The true discoveries of very ancient past civilizations are far more fascinating & mysterious than a made up island. Göbekli Tepe & its sister sites are almost as old as the mythical Atlantis, but is *real* with more discoveries every day. We've always had extreme ingenuity & don't need to chase ancient fiction or secret advanced technology to find or explain amazing ancient sites made by our ancestors.
I'm just saying that Criteus and Timeus were both characters set up to make points that Socrates could deliver the philosophical smackdown to, so maybe when they repeatedly say that Atlantis was real we should read that as "no srsly this guy is gonna keep going for a while but trust me he's so dumb"
"Its too detailed to be fake!"
Then I guess the adventures of Hector Servadac, a 19th century French ship captain who got swooped into Space by a comet grazing the Mediterranean sea only to later on return to Earth with an improvised hot air balloon when the comet happened to pass through Earth's atmosphere again is totally true and based in scientific fact.
Jules Verne couldn't have possibly made it all up, there's just too much detail!
Middle earth is also real have you seen how much detail are in those books
Caprona would like a word. Edgar Rice Burroughs - The Land that Time Forgot. Nuff said
@Lilith does stuff isn’t Arrakis a US state
@@lamp1585 Yes it is. You can go there.
Damn, The Land of Oz must’ve been all real then!
Like Twain said "[they] use statistics (evidence) the way a drunk uses a lamppost, more for support than illumination."
I read "Atlantis: The Antediluvian World" when I was 13-years-old. It was dumb, dry, and the 13-year-old me was terribly disappointed that it had nothing to do with Aquaman.
@Alex Cavazos It's nice to know that some people get the joke ;-)
Similar story with me. Read The Davinci Code as a teenager and thought it was real.
@@olivergrayhoundII Dan Brown stole that from the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" which is also a load of horseshit.
To be fair, it could have used Aquaman to be better.
@@RustyShock The courts ruled it wasn't stealing as HBHG claimed to be history and Dan Brown didn't. 🤣
No wonder history channels do so well on TH-cam. The History Channel is now the Fantasy Channel.
And unfortunately, it's not even good fantasy.
The idea of calling them the “history” channel is disrespectful to actual history fans. Ancient Aliens is literally the one thing CARRYING them into the eyes of mainstream media. On its breaking back. The show isn’t even as popular more. Andy is right, shit like this filth exists, and people wonder why we cannot agree on the basics of reality.
Its been like that for like the past 15+ years
I misread your handle and was about to ask for some money
@@cptfullsack6373 what did you think it said?
As Red from OSP put it: “What if Plato was telling the truth about every detail of Atlantis except where the island was physically located.”
To be fair, that is exactly how I could describe my car after a night out.
I feel like the people who argue that Atlantis is real because Plato didn't give a twelve-page disclaimer about it being fiction would just have their minds blown by Utopia
Wait until they read the story about the Cave - where a dude is convinced his shadow is a real person because he doesn't know any better
Just like fiction in general.
As an "American" and reincarnated "Atlantean", I just want it known that we consider ourselves Numenoreans.
Frodo lives!
Frodo lives!
Potatoes are a truly diverse food, you can cook em, mash em, boil em, put them in a stew
Does it make Russia Mordor?
@@mountainjew1474 maybe, or the misty mountains at least, the middle east is the Haradrim that I know for sure.
Eh, still waiting on the dark lord Morgoth #FreeMorgoth #MissYouSauron
I mean if the Lord of the Rings was meant to be fiction, why would he add so many details? CLEARLY the Middle Kingdom was a real thing and the book was supposed to be a historical record.
I unironically wonder if tens of thousands of years from now, our descendants will be debating on whether or not Lord of the Rings is fact, fiction or a little bit of both.
@@adulescentuluscarnifex8412 Actually it is a mixture of fact and fiction, you just have to know what you are looking for. The Shire is rural England, the Dead Marshes are the swamps of No Man's Land on the Western Front etc.
@@adulescentuluscarnifex8412 That's only possible if they only read the editions that don't have Tolkien saying that he hates allegory
@@thursoberwick1948 ok dork
@@adulescentuluscarnifex8412 Brilliant and witty response, thank you.
I love the narrator of Ancient Aliens. Every show he does voice over work for he always has the same insinuating tone. I remember on the show about Oak Island they found a wooden stake in the ground and just the way he said it was so funny. “A *stake* made of *wood* ? In the *ground* ? Could this mean the Templars built a booby-trapped tunnel system to hide their treasures?”
I love the narrator of those shows. If it's the same guy and not a robot, I wish he would do shows based *much* more based on historical fact rather than plain fiction.
He does the voice of Jim Raynor in Starcraft.
Templar tunnel rats
Yeah I wonder if he knows any of the background of the content in Ancient Aliens and let's it influence how he presents it XD
“Ancient astronaut theorists..….say YES”
Is it me or Ignatius Donelly’s story is way more interesting than any half-assed Atlantis and ancient aliens conspiracy people throw around these days?
Of course Atlantis is real, didn’t you see that entirely truthful animated documentary “Atlantis the Lost Empire” released in 2001 to wide critical acclaim? Foolish man, of course you don’t believe in the words of the mighty Cartoon Mouse!
You're right, Milo found Atlantis easily (once they got passed the mechanical crab), he was even able to teach the Atlantian's how to fly again. 🤣🤣🤣
And the reason why no one can find it is because it's located near Iceland. 😉
How about the James Cameron special. ....how low can the bar go?
Agreed that Treasure Planet and Eldorado are all just real events they just rotoscoped over them to make them look like cartoons
@@luxinvictus9018 the worst part about learning about history, is it ruins ones ability to see the historical figures as people not nearly mythological figures that they are painted as.
I've always wondered if the voice over guy of all those shows has ever felt embarrassed about all the dumb shit he says
I wonder if recording robocalls is his other job.
I'm sure he cries all the way to the bank.
I feel like it's something you have to stop giving a shit like you have about death when you're a mortician
To be honest, I would love to have a job like this. Getting paid to narrate a comedic script that makes me laugh every time I read it? Sign me up!
...embarrassed all the way to the bank. Seriously, that's regular voiceover work by a "major" cable network. Nothing to sneeze at.
As a Minnesotan, I'm proud to be a descendent of the Atlanteans.
As a Minnesotian too, that makes two of us!
Also a Minnesotan here make it 3
You betcha!
Pennsylvanians are the TRUE inheritors of the Atlantean Crown!!!!
make that four (or five)!
“The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.”
― Terry Pratchett, _Diggers_
I'll never forget the day when I thought I made a historical breakthrough when I theorized Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Ocean. I was 10.
Sounds a lot like me when I thought, at the age of 15, I had outsmarted all the world's physicists and engineers by designing a perpetual motion machine with magnets.
I had the same feeling when I correctly guessed the spelling of bus when I was 4
So simple. So elegant. It was right in front of us all along
@@irighterotica I did the same but with motors and generators. Lego motors and generators
Okay so true story here I said the word "Locomotive" when I was 2. Has nothing to add to this comment, just wanted to say it because everyone's listing childhood accomplishments
There should be a disclaimer on shows that states that just because a person has an English accent that doesn't make them an authority on anything.
You can tell an Englishman from a mile away. If you get up close you can’t tell ‘em anything.
Wait, it doesn't?
If anything having an English accent automatically makes you less credible (Attenborough not withstanding)
@floaty cloud wait what
I mean, the guy's name is Graham! He's gotta know what he's talking about
I would say that what the ancients built in the Americas is truly impressive because they were able to do everything without the help of beasts of burden to help them move the massive stones and without the metal tools. They had to be very creative. We need to give more credit to the ancient people all over the world they are much smarter and capability than we give them credit for.
Uh no dumdum, it was aliens, the tv said so
4:04 "where are the gods"
the story had Zeus noticing the corruption of the Atlantians and ask Poseidon to do something.
which then Poseidon decided to drown the whole damn island.
*literally the reason the whole island drown deep into the ocean is due to POSEIDON (THE GOD OF OCEAN), INTERFERING.*
Also that the first ten kings of Atlantis were the demigod sons of Poseidon with a mortal woman
“If Atlantis isn’t real, why did I have a four hour layover at its airport?”
Blame Sherman.
I would suggest that Atlantis is possibly based on oral traditions which attempt to make sense of the destruction of Minoan culture (and many outliers) by the eruption of Thera (modern Santorini). No one would have known the scientific facts of the cataclysm, it would have been highly mythologized, and, by Plato's time, why not spin it up into a foundational myth for Athens' hegemony? Plato nor anyone else of that time would have known the name Minos and the probably correctly supposed place Knossos, but there's your real Atlantis. Nothing special or mystical about Minoans, but they most certainly would have been a dominant presence in the Aegean and beyond and perhaps despised in murky, mythical badly transmitted local histories all over the region.
That's my theory too. Minoans also had indoor plumbing = technologically advanced for its day. Plus there's the Akrotiri fresco that literally depict a town on an island/peninsula within an island (aka very likely Thera/Santorini pre-eruption) very like Plato's description of his Atlantis.
You could make an argument that Atlantis is Santorini but even then Atlantis was an allegory. Although Plato could’ve used Santorini as inspiration.
The city of Akrotiri on Thera literally disappeared during the eruption, as it was entirely buried by ash, similar to Pompeii centuries later. It was rediscovered in the 60's and is a truly amazing and underrated archeological site, with almost intact Bronze Age houses up to three stories tall, complete with sophisticated drainage systems and in a few cases, astonishing frescos. A number of serious and qualified people have suggested it as a likely candidate for the 'real' Atlantis, although it's impossible to definitively prove it.
Very possible! That theory is discussed in World of Antiquity's companion video th-cam.com/video/Au3K3zd44Kw/w-d-xo.html
This is why I don't understand the assertions that Atlantis must have been technologically advanced: they lost a war with Athens. They couldn't have been that advanced.
I like how Plato says all myths are false and then writes a myth that people think is true.
I'm glad I'm not the only history person who was lead down a trail of lies due to "Indiana Jones". That series gave me the wrong idea about studying the past and how often I'd get to punch Nazis.
You have plenty of such opportunities, if you live in the U.S. Just look for the MAGA hats.
@@AlbertaGeek it isn’t as fun without the accents and uniforms
@@AlbertaGeek Political violence? Doesn't sound very democratic to me.
@@blebcat The Nazis aren't exactly known for being democratic mate. Never again means never again.
@@theangryholmesian4556 Oh right, the classic tactic of calling everyone who disagrees with you politically a Nazi. And you still think you're the good guys just because you demonize your enemies first. Your life has more value than to be such an ignorant person, so I hope you grow up.
When people say that the myths of "Atlantis" were written as history because the author said so I keep being reminded of Don Quixote and Red book of west march (LOTR), 100% fictional books written as fiction but within the narrative are described as real events by the author either to make a point or to enhance the story or both.
Yeah, in 2000 years, conspirationnists will search Mordor and Gondor around the world ^^'
"Dear Historians, if middle earth didn't exist, why does Tolkien claim it did ? Checkmate"
They're reading essentially the written version of found footage films as if they're fact, somebody help me, stop the planet I want to get off 🤦🏿♂️
@@krankarvolund7771 “why would it have several fully fleshed out languages if it was just a fictional story?”
This is exactly where my brain went when that argument came up
Atlantis: *Doesn't exist, was simply a thought experiment*
Ignatius Donnelly and other crackpot archeologists: IT'S REAL TO ME DAMMIT
Stories of submerged lands are very widespread. Plato does include some compelling details including the city being built in circles which suggests a flooded caldera complex, which suggests some real foundation.
It looks a lot like religion they're practicing.
Anyone else prefer Donovan’s Atlanta to Donovan’s Atlantis?
Lotta Kayfabe breaking in this channel
@@stefanfilipovits21 Like this video suggests, New Orleans is probably quids in to be the next Atlantis. Probably followed by Miami. I'll leave you to decide whether these are "great civilisations".
As a Minnesotan, it’s fascinating how our history jumps back and forth between progressivism and truly wild frontier beliefs and practices. To this day, half of the twin cities is named after Ramsey, both a staunch republican against institutional slavery and a businessman that took advantage of slave owner money to build up the local economy. He also called for the extermination of the Mdewakanton tribe during the Dakota Wars, a group that still lives and struggles in a dilapidated urban reservation called Little Earth right now, a block from where I live
The best illustration of this weird intersection of history is that people from multiple tribes, including Dakota tribes, live at Little Earth, which is within Ramsey county, named after the man that called for their ancestor’s deaths and removal from the land.
I've watched all of Stargate Atlantis. It's an excellent documentary.
God I miss Stargate…
It's amazing how much access the Air Force gave those film crews. Dang patriot act got passed before they got renewed
I now have a great need for an Atun-Shei video on Huey Long. So long as his bones are still buried beneath the state capitol, the rest of us can only ever hope to be the 2nd most interesting man in Louisiana.
That would be interesting
E V E R Y M A N A K I N G
The 1st being Lafitte? Or?
@@thebrutusmars Long
He’s saying no one can surpass Former Senator Huey Long “Dong”
@@generalfred9426 Fascist methods to get breakfast for children!
That lesser spotted 15 minute takedown intro. I love it
Haha I think it was 20!
Stefan! I bought a paleolithic hand-axe for myself for my last birthday because of you, LOL.
love your work stefan
It's beautiful
Best quote; 'if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out'; I here by swear to use this quote remorselessly, always duly crediting unless significant personal advantage is at stake.
Plato was notorious for leaning on allegory. He and diogenes famously disliked eachother exactly for this reason. Now if diogenes ever talked of Atlantis I'd believe it. Buy Plato was a known rascal when it came to facts.
"Atlantis is in Minnesota"
Me, a Minnesotan: What, why didn't I learn of this in my state history class?!
You weren’t? We built Duluth on top of the ruins of Atlantis
"THEY" don't want you to know the "TRUTH."
They changed the name to Bde Mga Ba
@@Nealikus that's what the MN DNR want you to think
With the American school system teaching us The lost cause, I’m honestly surprised that isn’t taught.
Not gonna lie though, Disney's Atlantis was ballin.
It's one of my favorite Disney movies! But it becomes a hell of a lot darker when you consider that if it took place in the real world, Milo truly was wasting his life on a complete myth and fell for it hook line and sinker.
@@AD-dg3zz good thing it doesn't!
Damn. Right. One of the most underrated animated movies ever
I doubt they like that version because the advanced atlanteans were brown and the bad guys were white colonisers.
Best Disney Villian ever. Rouke did'nt give a shit. My man was trying to get paid.
A big problem is that (even if people want to read a scientific paper) a lot of scientific papers are stuck behind paywalls or in archives you need an account to view.
The truth is expensive, the lies are free.
Great point
I also think it is a great point. The Atun-Shei guy makes a good point about university people just sticking to there own way of writing. I have seen that ivory tower culture myself. Also, since History Channel publish documentaries that take ancient aliens seriously, what can be expected?
Thanks Atun-Shei. it’s easy for so many people to fall into these rabbit holes of pseudoscience and conspiracy theories of our times, you make clear and convincing points that can give one a solid reality check without being demeaning or faulting one for ‘drinking the koolaid’
Did you drink the JIBBY JABBY 💉 KOOL-AID too ?
Safe & Effective 😂
Makes me be more mindful of my "trash tv I have on when stoned and laying around doing laundry on Sundays"
“Plato, is Atlantis real?”
“It’s real in my head.”
"Its real in my heart."
" It's as real as it needs to be for this story ".
"Liar, you have just been brainwashed by the government and mainstream "historians""
-The people who watch the "History Channel"
@@weebishusername9288 Oh good, at least it's nothing serious--The guy who's wondering what's the downside of being brainwashed by the government and mainstream " historians.
it was real to his contemporaries, granted he threw in a collage of other old rumors to spice it up
I'm not an archeologist, but I am finishing my PhD in criminology/sociology soon. I've noticed a ton of myths about crime, society get spread all over the internet and I have been thinking about creating a YT channel to directly attack those myths. Because most people aren't buying subscriptions to the journals I submit my work to.
Do it! But don't make your goal to be huge, make it to educate.
Agree, I would also like to follow a channel like that.
As a trained social scientist (who dropped the academic career) the part at 14:40 hits very close to home. I experienced this situation where a group of young scholars decried the terrible injustices of the academic system and their response was "hey, let's write a paper about it".
00:54 Ah,what a coincidence. I happen to be an actor.
"At which restaurant?"
"Atlantis, is in Minnesota."
Me, a Minnesotan: Well boys, let's get digging!
please do, perhaps you will accidentally validate the book the Book of Mormon...
Finally something in Minnesota lol
only viking history is in minnesota
Atlantis is a city Palm Beach County, Florida. Most of it is a country club.
You _are_ a filmmaker Atun-Shei. That guy being an explorer though...
@Paragon Ecclesia You are truly a brave soul…..(salutes)
I love the point you made about academics around the 15 min mark! I'm an ex-young earth creationist, got my BS in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, and Im now working on my PhD in microbiology. On more than one occasion I've had academics tell me that its a waist of time to address young earth creationism. "Its a waist of time to engage in creation/evolution discussions. The science is already done!" they say. Thats why I am making it my business to start a youtube channel addressing scientific misunderstandings and going to local high schools to talk to the youth about the importance scientific understanding and thinking critically.
Thank you for literally saving society.
What is your channel?
My radical fringe theory about Atlantis (well two actually):
Either:
1. It was a fictional literary device invented by Plato that never existed
2. It was loosely inspired by a volcanic island in the Mediterranian with no special super tech or super magic
Atlantis is real. However it was moved to the Pegasus dwarf galaxy four million years ago.
I hear Atlantis was left on a cliffhanger, too. Very devious.
Nerd.
@@Rhynome I don’t get it
@@theshenpartei OP was referencing the series Stargate: Atlantis.
@@Rhynome I think the comics and novels continue the story
The internet needs more pseudo-history debunkings. Hancock and his friends are one of the most well received pseudo-scientists out there.
In no small part to Low Bogan
But people don't want debunking ! . I'm a historian, and i tried tohave discussions with these people by pointing out how ancient monuments were build, i gave them explanations, links to other videos, etc,etc. They either start calling me ignorant, part of a conspiracy or they just stop responding. I think they use these alternative realities to make their lives less boring . They don't want to hear that there is enough proof and detailed historical facts to explain 90% of all archaeological sites. They just don't care.
@@spiritualanarchist8162 That bemuses me. Real History is *extremely* interesting, and matters a *lot* to the modern day! One discovery or new interpretation can throw fundamental beliefs on their head!
@@ahmedamine24 Well to be honest, I used to love this kind of áncient alien 'stuff when i was a kid. People love mystery over history. But you are right, History is intresting ,if it's taught well.
@@spiritualanarchist8162 And fiction can be dreadfully dull, if told badly. See "The Last Airbender" by M Night Shamayalan. Or "The Hobbit."
I had a professor in college who was a teacher of mesoamerican history but he was also one of the leading voices against ancient aliens theory. Interesting guy
I mean, most people I know think that the idea of metaphysical phenomena being ancient humanity's interpretation of alien encounters is the only part of it that comes close to having any likelihood of holding water
when you come for a fun video on Atlantis and end up watching an essay on the necessity of scientific study and the fallings of the wider academic community (past and present). Great video
There's been a reasonably convincing case made that the Atlantis myth (whether Plato believed it or not) is a garbled retelling of the eruption of the Thera volcano in about 1600 BC. This caused numerous settlements in the area to be destroyed and even caused some to vanish completely. The Minoan city of Akrotiri was entirely lost under volcanic ash until it was excavated in the 20th century, and bears some similarities to aspects of Plato's description of Atlantis.
This is addressed in World of Antiquity’s companion video.
if he was speaking of thera, then he would not have downgraded the Mediterranean sea to a harbor in the critias. another thing is that critias explicitly states that this story is Egyptian.
@@commonsense-og1gz Yes and Tolkien said the Lord of the Rings was written by Hobbits, sometimes being lie or use a framing device to give their fictional story more authenticity.
@@InquisitorThomas if a story is to be retold, then it needs to be told right, or the people retelling it are guilty of the same fiction they accuse the original story of.
@@commonsense-og1gz Sure, dig Platos up and get him to take responsibility.
I actually cited one of your videos (the one where you read diary entries of CSA soldiers) in my undergraduate essay on the American Civil War and have argued to my professors the usefulness of YT videos in helping promote good historical education, sharing of knowledge, and good old fashion blood sports in terms of debates. I think your point on academia is a valid one but it is one that even small universities are starting to understand and get a grip on. Continue posting good content and you'll help persuade the Academics of the Ivory Towers to come to talk to the masses!
Great report! For years, I thought I was the only person who knew how to read Plato correctly, from word one to word last. Atlantis was the result of a homework assignment Socrates handed out to three of his students. The overall discussion was around what the best form of government should look like. Socrates started off with his definition in "The Republic." His students replied with their concept of "The lost continent of Atlantis."
I think one of the best counter claims to Atlantis is the transition of cave paintings to the stone work calendars of the agricultural societies. Thank you, I've never heard the Plato argument of Atlantis as an analogy.
I think white people were in the Americas first and they are covering up the bog mummies and won’t let us examine them I also KNOW that the Aniu people of Japan the original Caucasian inhabitants of the islands are real
Maybe the real Atlantis was the friends we made along the way
Bruh...how! Atalntis is a city not a frie.......uhhh nevermind!
"The truth is Atlantis is in Minnesota" Does that mean Lake Superior will rise and drown us all? Sounds like a metaphor... Fantastic video as always!!
Idk what he’s talking about, Atlantis is in the Bahamas. I’ve seen it.
Clearly it’s under the North Sea!
I've always bought into the idea that Atlantis was simply the Minoan civilization and pacifically the island Thera.
Possibly reason why the history channel has taken on these crackpot stories and reality shows is because they can be categorized as entertainment. There was some ruling or law (I could be wrong) that allowed documentaries (educational) to be free on the internet and hence, if it is entertainment rather than educational, than you bypass those rules.
My understanding is that Atlantis was *inspired* by the Minoans on Thera, rather than being exactly the same thing. Like, if Thera was massive, in the Atlantic, super-duper old and ruled by demigods.
Interesting about the entertainment/history rule; never heard of it before. Thanks for sharing that insight!
That entertainment thing explains... a lot.
It has been suggested, although it seems even that isn't a likely explanation. Plato lived at a time when earthquakes and tsunamis had occurred in the recent history of the eastern Mediterranean, so the idea wouldn't have been too outlandish to him. He also lived at a time when these things were attributed to the actions of gods rather than geology, so coming up with a fictional place that was drowned by the sea probably wasn't the hardest bit of world-building he had to do.
The Minoan civilisation wasn't well document in Plato's time, and would have been largely mythologised, so Plato was probably putting his own spin on some well-established folklore.
I still believe the most likely candidate is Santorini. Remember scholars and historians believed Homer made up Troy until German archeologists discovered the remains of a city wall in Eastern Turkey in the 1890s, bringing the Minoan and Achaemenid civilizations of ancient Greece out of myth and into reality.
I’m so glad the explanation of science included how the scientific method does not result in “finding the truth.” I think the biggest misconception a lot of people have about science is that it’s meant to find The Truth, when the nature of science means the opposite. There are no Truths in science, only conclusion supported by evidence.
Part of accepting the scientific method is coming to terms with the idea that not everything can be known, and I think that’s not something people are taught.
I always thought Atlantis was a slight retelling of the Minoan Civilization collapse. It makes sense as it's close to Greece and from what I have seen in research is that it was very different and quite advance for its time and advanced compared to Platos time.
Agreed
Some of it, at least, seems to be a mashup of folkloric memory of the results from the Thera eruption and the Bronze Age Collapse centuries later. Plato was certainly familiar with the Iliad and the Odyssey, and probably some other myths (now lost) that originated in the second millennium BCE.
Thanks for all you do. I used to believe all of the lost cause BS. You opened my eyes and really reignited my love and passion for history. It’s amazing living in a country with such rich history. I love the content. I would love to see a video on the history out west. I live in Cheyenne Wyoming and the history here is so interesting yet it’s never talked about.
look up Cahokia, the Mississippians , the Maya, the Inca. its all pretty incredible stuff.
Will do! I just finished the outlaw Josey Wales and god is it a good movie.
As a stereotypical east coaster I generally picture Wyoming as a perfectly rectangular, massive hole in the middle of the country, and so am really interested in replacing this perception. What part of your local history draws you in? Tribal history? Indian Wars? How settlements grew into communities?
I'm not a historian but as an academic - some of us are also women or minorities and the internet is not always a friendly place. However, you are doing amazing work, please keep it up.
Imagine if, a thousand years from now, people believed that Westeros was a real, historical place. That is what I feel like when I hear people talk about Atlantis as if it were real.
The difference is that when you’re dealing with something that wasn’t a conscious fictional creation from the start, getting genuine belief in its existence to be seen as a sign of mental illness is impossible. It’s why religion still exists
“Where are the Gods?” ....weren’t they literally what created Atlantis in the first place in the story? Lol, even that point of theirs can’t hold up to literally the tiniest piece of scrutiny.
Yeah but the gods created all civilizations. So that alone doesn't debunk anything.
Even today's countries have creation myths... Mexico for example.
The kings of Atlantis were supposed to be demi-gods, descended from Poseidon and given the island to rule over. A major theme of the story was how as generations passed, this divine dynasty, became less and less divine and more vulnerable to the vices and failings of their mortal nature and thus leading to the decline of Atlantis' moral character and their drive towards imperialism
How was rome founded? Totally accurate story
@@weldonwin pretty sure king atlas was a titan not a demi-god
Robert E. Howard's pretty strong belief in Atlantis, heavily influenced by Lewis Spence, was quite interesting in that his Atlanteans were barbarians rather than advanced and civilized people.
The most interesting historic comparison to Atlantis was the Bronze Age collapse with all the various catastrophes and strife that brought down the civilizations of the times such as the Hittites and the Mycaneans leaving just a very diminished Egypt surviving.
The Hyborian Age from Howard
I guess you can say is a sequel to Kull of Atlantis's era
as well.
Bronze Age Collapse that was triggered by the unknown "sea peoples"?
Ah, yes, the Sea Peoples. History's greatest mystery.
@@Oldsmobile69 Do you have any source for your claims?
Robert E Howard's essay the Hyborian Age shares many ideas to Connelly's work, but also has the racial and nietzschean conflict of civilization and barbarity behind it. It's a real treat
I like how at no point do these people ever assume Plato could have just been, oh I don’t know, lying his ass off?
Also Donnelly’s story is pretty sad in my opinion, he seemed to be a pretty good person with some very modern ideas
"Why are they saying that Plato made this up? Plato repeatedly states that it is a true story."
Plato says _a lot_ of things.
"I've been to ancient Roman palaces that were less opulent than the Robber Baron mansions of Newport, Rhode Island."
You mean, the "summer cottages" (many of which were designed to basically be miniature versions of royal palaces of Europe)?
That said, I don't know if it's fair to conclude that the likes of the Vanderbilts likely took opulence far beyond the likes of Bezos or Musk, since the homes of the latter are generally not open to the public, so it's hard to compare the relative extravagance of the two. Bezos's yacht with its own smaller support yacht (which itself has a helipad) just feels like a different brand of extravagant, but one of similar magnitude, as the Versailles-inspired dining room of Marble House.
Looked up the dining room. Goodness gracious, it's like the inside of an intestine.
Bezos also has a space yacht
@@fruitygarlic3601 I just looked it up myself, and yeah-that room is gross🤮
@@fruitygarlic3601 While I wouldn’t go quite so far as to compare it to the inside of an intestine, I think it certainly fits into the category of “A Bit Much”.
RIP to Atlantis. Chilling at the bottom of Lake Superior with the Edmund Fitzgerald.
I’d say go look for it but we all know their are DUMBs guarding USOs down there
If there's one person who hated an allegory, it was Plato... oh no wait he totally loved using them all the time
I've only watched one episode about Ancient Aliens and its hilarious. "Look at this big snake in the ground! Obviously its way too complex for the natives to have built, it was obviously an space port where aliens mined iridium! Proof? There are caves!"
atun shei talking about crackpot archaeology again? this'll be good.
Atlantis is real, I saw Elvis there
Sheet man are you John? I saw you somewhere there
I hear Tupac visits occasionally as well.
I for sure read the title as "how a civil war politician invented Atlanta" and was very confused, yet intrigued
That use of the Manifest Destiny motif from Ravenous during the part about Donnely's downward descent is amazing
Francis Bacon ruined Plato's work when he wrote "new atlantis" and disregarded the whole point and message of the original piece, which is where alot of the misconceptions also come from.
Like when Bram stoker wrote Dracula and destroyed the image of a resistant fighter into that of a vampire?
@@ktheterkuceder6825 Dracula most probably wasn't based on Vlad III if that is what you mean. That was a myth created in the 50s and 70s before the author's notes were found. As it turns out, he just did what any fiction writer does, and looked for cool names near the setting he wanted for his book, Transylvania. That is how he got to Wallachian voivodes, amongst whom he found a few with the name Dracula. The name signifying courage, and strength and meaning something like Devil made him choose it most probably.
Of course we don't know what exactly inspired him to choose the name, but it was most probably the following hundred years that cemented the connection between the two in popular culture.
Plus if you listen to the guy talk, it’s clear that unless he is utterly bullshitting, he cannot be Vlad Dracula. He calls himself a drescendant if Atilla the Hun and a Szekely. It’s far more likely that this guy is a fictional descendant of the Dracula, named for his famous ancestor.
@@ktheterkuceder6825 If the historical Dracula were a vampire overlord, he'd be like Blade but fighting terrorism. 😎
@@autobotstarscream765 I would watch the shit out of that.
Yeah, maybe the South will rise again, but you know what would really impress me? Atlantis rising again. That would take a real feat of buoyancy I’ll tell you that much.
Ever since watching Overly Sarcastic Production's video about Atlantis, I wanted to see if any other history TH-camrs were saying anything. I'm glad to learn just that little bit more here as well. Thank you!
I gotta admit that another facet of life that may have given rise to such a large population of people believing in civilizations such as Atlantis is modern fantasy media. Atlantis, Lemuria, Mu are all go to 'lost civilizations' for fantasy stories especially urban fantasy and urban adventure stories. They're always used to explain away the existence of some artifact or source of magic or lost treasure. And I must admit that as a writer who loves fantasy and mythology and folklore, I have also been inspired by these legends and play around with the idea of "what if they did exist?" I'm not by any means saying fantasy writers should be blamed or that we should stop writing about these mythical places, I just wanna point out that there could be a possible correlation between the two areas. I also believe that people's reluctance to accept that these places are just fantasy may be an attempt by many to retain a feeling of magic and fantasy in the real world. I don't think anyone wants to let go of that feeling of wonder and mystery.
I still intend to use these fictional places in my own works despite whatever ideas they might perpetuate. They are too good to leave out. They have been engraved in the collective mind of society and popular culture. It's because of this recognition that Atlantis keeps resurfacing in our media. I do think though that we should leave Atlantis where it really lies, on a paged and anchored in our mind.
"Where are the gods in the atlantis myth?" MAKING ATLANTIS AND INSTALLING THE KINGS AND SINKING IT
Right?! Like, Poseidon building and forming Atlantis and having sons with Cleito before eventually sinking Atlantis is like...ya know...the entire story of Atlantis
The Athenian defeated the Atlantians with swords. In the second part of the text. It was because Plato wanted Athens to be like Sparta.
Gods: lets Bang and Boom Atlantis.
@@covenawhite4855 So Plato was Zach Snyder?
@@covenawhite4855 Also Athens was one of the younger Greek City States, and wouldn’t have even existed during the timeframe the story takes place.
The idea that an impactor of anything other than utterly catastrophic moon-size could change the axial tilt at all by some combination of entry angle and velocity is amazingly bad and demonstrates a complete lack of even the most basic understanding of physics.
As an Indiana Jones fan, I appreciated the “goose-stepping morons” line
Watching this during hurricane Ida. I know I've never met you Andy, but thinking of you and your fellow New Orleans. Stay safe and let us know you are ok!
"And we wonder why no one can agree on objective reality it must be Twitter."
That has to be one of the most succinct sarcastic statements I've ever heard.
Of course Atlantis is real, I saw it in the documentary Stargate: Atlantis.
I saw it another documentary too. It was called Atlantis: The Lost Empire.
I’ve BEEN to Atlantis. It’s in the Bahamas. I rode Atlantean water slides and ate Atlantean bisque. I even lost 80$ at the Atlantean casino.
Yeah I can’t believe the Atlantians love to water slide into sharks as a sacrificial ritual known as the leap of faith
A thousand years from now, people will discover Jordan Peterson’s lectures and think that Neverland was real.
I absolutely love how the opening recreates the experience of trying to watch the History Channel with my pedantic friend Phil. (This is a compliment of the highest order.)
I remember in High School the guy behind me in class literal asked “How do you know they didn’t just make all that up”?
He was asking if historians were just making shit up...I tried to point out the process historians use, citing sources, backing claims with evidence and connecting it all.
I doubt I convinced him however.
Really good book called proving history you would probably like
Okay so how you know people back then weren't just making it all up? Or were people of antiquity just too stupid and only wrote in metaphors? Seems you have more in common with Ancient Alien theorists than you think.
@@Imperium83 You use evidence to back up a hypothesis. Records like old news papers, legal documents and witness accounts, to create a picture of an event.
I admit I haven't actually read Plato, but I'd heard that the Atlanteans were descendants of Poseidon & he ultimately destroyed the island & the civilization, reducing it to an impassable mud shoal in the Atlantic just outside the Straits of Gibraltar. I mention this as Mr. Hancock said that the story doesn't mention the supernatural. Also, there is no such mud shoal.
When the biographer wrote that Donnelly's crops had been "devoured by . . . grasshoppers," they weren't being metaphorical. Grasshoppers literally invaded our state and ate all our crops :(
I had an assignment last semester in a Minnesota History class where we learned about Donnelly. The lesson was on Populism (which was important/influential at the time in Minnesota) and we all started laughing once Atlantis: The Antediluvian World came up. It's less funny knowing it inspired the modern day ancient aliens crowd and it's adjacent movements.
I LOVE your succinct summary of Graham Hancock! I want to type it up for future reference. In fact, I'll put it here for whoever's interested:
"Oh look! It’s renowned kook, Graham Hancock. His hobbies include taking powerful psychedelics, going on podcasts, and doing real tangible harm to the public’s understanding of history by misleading millions of gullible people into believing outlandish ideas, and then when those ideas collapse under the tiniest bit of scrutiny, he complains loudly that no one’s taking him seriously and that he is being silenced. This fosters anti-intellectualism, which is dangerous for democracy."
When I was a small child I thought Atlantis was a place in New Jersey.
Actually it’s the capital of Georgia
I think it's near Paterson. I'm pretty sure Mugsy was from Atlantis, NJ.
Uhhhhh no? Atlantis is real and they made it into a really fun resort
Atlantic City?
No that’s Atlantic City. Atlantis is in Georgia duh
I've been living in Minnesota for the majority of my life, can confirm. A friend of mine dated Aquaman in college.
A clip from The Mysterious Cities of Gold... I’m not sure how I remembered that. Great show
I only discovered Atun-Shei recently, and I love your videos. The 20 minute intro for a 13-minute video is delightfully on brand, and honestly quite enjoyable for me as someone who loves seeing the sources for my content. I am in the process of changing careers towards teaching history, and your videos are an honest inspiration to get off my ass and work for it, instead of bemoaning the history illiteracy that I see around me. Thank you for all you do.
My favorites are the "Somesayers". You know, the people who "some say". Like that has any kind of meaning.
I prefer the “Is it possible that _____???” line they pull out 10x per episode
@@stefanfilipovits21 Ah yes, JAQing off
In my mind, "Some say" has a place in conversation, and it's for speculation. If you've legitimately heard people say something, you can't assume it's true, but you can entertain the thought. If someone is using "some say this" as an excuse to justify action, that's a huge red flag. It strongly suggests they have ulterior motives they can't admit to.
The way he says ancient aryans sounds like he’s still saying ancient aliens but in a very racist Asian accent
@@bleedingmasque.6193 Air-ee-in.
How do you pronounce it? Are-ee-in? Uh-rye-in? Are-eye-in?
😅😂🤣💀
@@bleedingmasque.6193 Air E an
@@minutemansam1214 Uh-rye-in is Orion
Funny that Aryan is actually Iranian 😂.
My Plato professor said we would understand Plato better if we knew when he was laughing while writing.