I feel like with the retrospectives and Simpsons Histories, I've been covering a lot of the later Simpsons content on the channel, so I'm trying to hit up more classic Simpsons reviews for the Extra Seconds. I had re-watched Principal Charming recently and was struck by how much is going on in it, so it seemed like a good chance to revisit this over-shadowed Season 2 episode.
@@AnimatedChris1987 Kinda, sorta, maybe. They ended up being a bunch of extra work when I was already writing the longer review. I could see them coming back randomly and for special occasions but they are a bit of a relic now (Funny enough, my TVTropes entry had said I was doing Extra Seconds without 60 Second reviews, even though it wasn't true at the time. But then I ended up doing that later anyway, making the entry correct again.)
@@TheRealJims maybe you could bring them back as TH-cam shorts? That would be kind of interesting, might get some new viewers, regardless keep up the good work and thanks for the content!
maybe Simpsons histories on the cities outside of Springfield, shelbyville, capital city, ogdenville, etc. idk if there's enough info out there, but just an idea.
@@royalblanket it wouldn't need it their personalities are the same we can only change what we don't know unrealistic Lee we don't know if they're both cisgender lol Plus it explained Terry WTF calls a girl Terry Teresa Terry just sounds weird just say tea if you want to shorten it Terry makes sense for Terence though I thought I got it enough that it's basically my headcanon now hell I would even help write the episode lol I think I have trans kids to know the gist of it
Its so brilliant a) because of the earlier set up at Moe's, and b) it implies that Homer thinks the word 'Homer sexual' exists because gay people find him, Homer, attractive
This is one of my favorites to rewatch as an adult. It perfectly encapsulates the weird atmosphere of middle-aged dating. I especially love the rotating restaurant scene: the "Food tastes better when you're revolving" line absolutely nails the type of thing a square like Skinner would say, in a desperate attempt to win someone over with something witty that is anything but; a brain flailing around to make small talk but failing to latch onto anything interesting. It doesn't mean anything and isn't a joke on its own, but nothing says both "charming" and "charmless" at the same time quite as much as that line.
In retrospect, this episode feels like an accidental exploration of compulsory heterosexuality for Patty. I love these more grounded and realistic stories from the early Simpsons. They're enjoyable in isolation, but beyond that they laid the ground for shows like King of the Hill. KOTH did grounded, realistic drama so damn well while still clearly being a cartoon. While Skinner gets his heart broken, I love that he starts off as a person with a full life. Unlike poor Selma, he isn't desperately seeking anything. He just happens to fall in love. And when that love leaves him, he still has a full life. His pledge to get back his school shows that he's going to be fine. He has a purpose with or without Patty.
This is why I'm subscribed to his channel. There's no other Simpsons related channels that can deep dive into low-key and often forgotten episodes like these. Made me re-evaluate such an overlooked S2 episode.
Thanks! I get a little bored sometimes talking about what works about the super popular episodes (and there are already a lot of breakdowns of those). (At the same time, videos like these are why my channel will never become mega popular) 🤣
Some things I always take away from this episode:- 1) I miss this version of Skinner. The counterpart and authority that stood against Bart. He got the last laugh in this episode. Bart's rebellion was always fun, but he needed an adversary. 2) The sheer disinterest Homer has to his in-laws and how that's built into the plot. He's the one that mixes them up (twice) that introduces Patti and Seymour. 3) More fostered Simpsons dialogue from the early series. Everybody remembers embiggened and cromulent, but not Jeezum Crow. The latter became prominent in the comics though...
I've come to appreciate this episode as i become older because it's the first to focus on the bouvier twins but also the first to diferentiate between the two
@@BB-te8tc Maybe those dates and relationships she had were so traumatic that the only way she feels she can have any control now is by abstaining from sex
In a retrospective look, the story offers up some fascinating questions about Patty and Selma. The most interesting to me is Marge’s quote about them; “Patty chose the life of celibacy. Selma simply had celibacy thrust upon her.” By who? Because Selma is shown to have relationships often, where Patty rarely does. Did the men in her life thrust celibacy upon Selma, or was it actually Patty? Patty butts in and prevents Selma meeting that security guard, after all. How long has Patty been jaded and closed off, and has she pushed that onto Selma as a means to always have someone who still understands her? That line can be read to have a shocking amount of subtext about Patty and Selma’s relationship, with some unpleasant implications about Patty. Perhaps Selma and Seymour are perfect for each other, as they both have someone ruining their romantic life; Patty Bouvier and Agnes Skinner. The other is, why, if Patty has been obviously lesbian since her teens, as seen in her coming out episode, did Selma, who surely would’ve realised this too, push her to date Skinner? Obviously it’s the continuity being played with, but it offers another interesting concept; perhaps Selma knows Patty is gay, but is so desperate for love that she pushes Patty into it to try and live vicariously through it, only to realise this makes her feel worse, bc she knows it’s what she wants and not what Patty wants. Is Selma so lonely as to try and manipulate her closeted gay twin sister to be with a man so that she could feel love, too? Is her line about “giving up [Patty’s] last shot of happiness” actually about herself, and a desire to return to a more codependent lifestyle with Patty, bc she feels unworthy of love for it all? There’s a great irony that despite being punchlines of the episode, Patty and Selma are potentially made intriguing, complex and human by this story. Kind of makes me root for Selmoe all the more.
I took the line to mean that, while patty's cold and rough exterior is a result of her choices, selma ended up in the exact same place for reasons that are, at least as far as marge is concerned, outside of her control. Patty is perfectly fine being as miserable as she as, whereas selma has been pushed into this state by the world. There is the subtext that this is in part because of patty, that in finding solace with her sister selma became doomed to become her, but I think there's just as much an argument to be made that patty's scaring off suitors is to protect selma from yet more heartbreak. the real interesting unspoken dynamic is between selma and marge, because its entirely possible that had not marge found homer she would have ended up like selma. Selma may hate homer, but what she wants out of a relationship is fundementally what he has with marge. Maybe selma and patty's treatment of homer is related to patty's treatment of men interested in selma, idk.
I kinda wish this turned into a friendship between them. Patty could bring out some of Seymore's edges, make him less of a dork by virtue of her being so abrasive. Thanks for this video, I think I've hit that point where I'm old and smart enough to appreciate classic Simpsons on a level I wish I could've back when it was just "Simpsons." Your videos help me realize this and want to go back to those early seasons.
Another way in which hindsight helps this episode is it gives us a little insight into the loneliness of Skinner which makes you route for him a bit more when the Edna romance does come around, and what he says in the S8 episode about him being a virgin gives us extra subtext about his position in this episode too
Patty breaking up Skinner and him just sobbing his heart out is for me the saddest moment in the whole show. He's such a pure boi and I really respect Patty for being honest with him. Him getting that triumphant moment of proclaiming "Tomorrow is just another school day!" is when I realized how much I loved this character.
I appreciate these deep dives into the smaller stories and the more subtle and nuanced aspects of the show. So kudos. I remember really feeling for Selma when this episode came on back in the day. And looking back on it now, her and Skinner could have been one of those unusual character pairings that just works, the same way Ned and Edna did. I haven't given up on Selmoe either, though. Also, had the lesbian reveal never happened, I would have totally been on board with Patty as an asexual person. You could definitely read this episode that way, I think. Barring, y'know, the context we got later.
I really loved this episode and appreciate this edition of Extra Seconds especially so, for taking me back to a childhood favourite (yes, I am English). I think that the fact that we don't see this story told from Patty's point of view was a really smart choice by the writers and, I believe, is ultimately what allows the viewers to let the "will-they-won't-they die with the episode and not always want them to be together for the rest of the show, learning a lesson in supporting others to live their best life. We always see the story from the perspective of everyone around Patty whom want it to work for her, evidently far more than she wants anything to do with the entire situation. It really sends the message home of "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it take a drink" and tells a valuable story, for its time, about respecting peoples dignity in making their own life choices. At the time of the episode's production, women were first learning en-masse what the difference in lifestyle choices earned by the freedoms gained through the women's liberation movement of the late 60's early 70's would mean for the later stages of their lives, and how this might be different from anything role modeled or imagined for them beofore. This episode very boldly shows a woman coming to terms with that reality, not because she had not made peace with her choices but that everyone that was important to her had not come to that same understanding. The perspective allowed us as the viewers to feel that pressure and see her, albeit brusk, graciousness in capitulating to dating Seymour, and even allowing herself to be open to the possibility that she was wrong to "chose a life of celibacy". All of this was thoughtfully written and visualized to bring the audience to a place where we understood and respected Patty's choice even if we would have chosen differently in her situation. Though the viewers may have been a little heart broken by it this was remedied by the fact that we knew from the very outset it was an entirely unfair expectation that we were just as happy to overlook in our pursuit for Patty and or Seymour's happiness. Like many of the best "beyond comedy" episodes of the Simpsons they tuned into the zeitgeist and told a wonderfully unexpected tale that resonated more than a half hour of cartoon comedy should. I truly didn't set out to write an essay it started as a 2 line thank you and then got me thinking 🤣🤣🤣. I love You TheRealJims, thank you.
My favourite scene from this episode was when Skinner shouts “SIMPSON” when Bart writes Bart in the grass, then he says “There is no other Bart” when Bart tried to make the excuse that it was another Bart
As a queer person who has tried “straight” relationships and found how miserable they made me, I think this episode has aged really well when viewed in the “Patty’s gay” context. Lots of gay people feel pressured by society, family and friends into at least *attempting* relationships with members of the opposite sex, even if they know it will never make them happy. As a story about that kind of situation, Principal Charming is left looking a lot more interesting than it ever was in the 90s.
I do wonder if maybe that was intentional, it was during a time period where you couldn't really be that overt about queer characters. It wouldn't be the first time a writer tried to sneak such a character in using subtlety. But of course it could just be a happy accident.
They managed to make Patty likeable, i remember seeing this episode, it was beautiful, how she wasn’t interested about Skinner at first, but they shared a really nice date, thought Selma wanted desesperatly to be with him, but that failed as Homer confused them both. When Patty came out as lesbian, she was the opposite of being likeable, she tried to antagonize Homer, the same guy who played the pastor, marrying couples of the same-sex. I get it was a different time about Patty, but she lose what made her great in this episode, making an effort to enjoy the company of someone else like she did with Skinner.
I think this is an accidentally fantastic representation of comphet (compulsory heterosexuality). The idea of Patty just doing this because she kinda feels it's expected, kissing Skinner cause it will make him happy, slowly gaining fondness for Skinner and thinking it must actually be love. While I think all of this was unintentional, comphet not being talked about in mainstream culture until recently, it's really interesting in retrospect considering what we know about Patty now
@@acacacacacacaccaca7666She wasn't always a lesbian. Then why is she attracted to Richard Dean Anderson? Making Patty a lesbian seems like a move to make The Simpsons fit with the times we're living.
Thanks! I was actually pretty anxious about the writing for this review (since there are so many readings for the episode) so am glad to hear that it came together well
Love to see appreciation and analysis of this one. Not every episode can start an arc, and I think that false start episodes still show us great character moments. Also the dry humor in this is my favorite of season 2
this episode really highlights how much more there is to Patty and Selma. they're not just there to be bitter and annoy Homer. additionally, it explains why Skinner and Agnes are at Patty's wedding to Veronica.
I love the part of the episode where Homer is watching football and we see the quarterback on the TV have his leg hyperextend forward, then he falls on his head and dies with XX eyes.
You know, what I really love about this episode is how deep it is. It is not just the ambiguity here, but also establishes Patty and Selma's unique bond and shows us quality traits of Patty (that we love to hate on) that Selma lacks. Patty is just not able to get herself to leave her sister Selma, yet Selma has done so countlessly towards Patty after getting married. Despite Patty being revealed as a lesbian, it seems she still gets jealous when Selma is successful at a relationship (true to both admitting in separate episodes that they are just jealous of Marge and Homer). Patty is also hinted to be bi later on rather than a complete lesbian. In regards to Patty's feelings for Skinner, I am personally convinced she genuinely grew to like Skinner. If we pay close attention, notice Patty goes on multiple dates with Skinner voluntarily and dresses nicely for him. True to her character, Patty is very subtle. Later episodes make Patty's reasoning for rejecting Skinner clear- Patty stayed true to her words.
Patty is one of the consistently least interesting characters on the show. I think it's interesting though how much more depth there is to Selma. They are both lonely and very apathetic. However, Selma still puts herself out there every so often whereas Patty hardly ever does.
Agreed. It's very hard to root for Patty the same way we do with Selma. I'm in the same boat as Jim and want the writers to finally just give Selma somebody like how they did with Edna before she was eventually killed off.
I like the talk Homer and Marge have about Marge’s sisters… weird I know, but him trying to remember if Patty didn’t like to be touched is a subtle detail of Homer actually listening to Marge that feels natural… even tho he don’t like her sisters, he paid enough attention to Marge’s convo that it’s actually sweet…
Principal Charming is one of my favorites in S2, and I appreciate how it portrays unconventional bond Bouvier sisters have, which never was revisited since then, and it gives honestly better look at Patty's personality than any further update on her. We first learn Selma & Patty not being merely "Gruesome Twosome", but having different, even opposite aspirations in life, and one, possibly, even secretly complying to other's behavior in order to hide her sensitivity. We further see Selma's individual vulnerable heart in I Married Marge and Selma's Choice as well, so her development persists, while Patty's cold attitude apparently needed some update so she could be more dynamic figure on her own, thus, I guess, her closeted state was invented (but I also assume, it would be inner joke deemed to be potent enough to be promoted to implication and, eventuallty, canon. My assumption is, eventual choice for going with her character is mostly due her fitting into archetype, as crude as it is, but in the vein of all other stereotyped side characters on the show, and there is easy to mine comedic potential from her sexuality than from life of celibacy implied in Principal Charming. By the way, is here a lot of asexual (strongly implied, evident from context, or fully disclosed) female characters in mainstream TV shows even to this day? Wikipedia (some time ago, at least) listed few cases of canonic ace characters in animated shows, with only one female, I believe, and even that one is muddled by character being of non-reproductive alien species (and, I guess, not listed girlfriend of Todd from BoJack, which is one of (also very few) canonic male ones, and clearly supplementary to male counterpart). I assume main issue is in complication of direct approach to such character, let alone on the comedic (or children-oriented, for that case) shows, but also it seems like some stereotype persisted when it comes to female characters. You basically can't have non-traditionally feminine heroine in TV show - animated ones, for any audience, at very least, who doesn't get girlfriend sooner or later, but any hint of female character explicitly not wanting relationship at all is almost non-existing for some reason. Patty in PC, as old and most likely unintentional, and probably, stereotyped - and not flattering one - example may be (one of?) the most decent portrayal of asexual woman on TV from what I can recall, even admirable to some degree. Honestly, after listening to Talking Simpsons podcast on the subject of that episode, I can agree Skinner and Patty did convincing, if awkward and non-glamorous, couple, and their mutual understanding in the minute of their break-up testifies to some legit bonding between two. Personally, I hope (faintly) that, decide the show to close the book on Selma's pursuing of marital happiness, they will do full circle and get her and Skinner together at last. Their personalities, with all development they got over the years, are matching each other pretty well, and there is potential for healthy family unit between those two. If Moe can finally get proper relationship, one for Selma is also not a draw.
Thank you for doing this one! It is among my favourites, and I love how ambiguous and understated it is. Love that dank corridor. It is refreshing to see a story where the romance doesn't work, and it is no one's fault; there is just something inherently incompatible. Between this and a few other moments, I feel the writers probably intended Patty to be asexual or gay from quite early on, and they are certainly very consistent about distinguishing her from Selma. It has aged astoundingly well (unlike nearly anything post season 10 referring to LGBT stuff!) whilst being a nice little bit of insight about how any non-hetero sexualities were swept under the rug back then. It is low key a very efficient episode as well - it basically has three plot lines plus a set up with the BBQ stuff but they all mesh together to form the story really well. Very nice to see someone talk about this gem of an episode.
I like it. Patty feels like she needs to live a heterosexual life. It was the early 90s, and being gay wasn't socially acceptable. The relationship between Patty and Skinner feels awkward and one sided, with Patty feeling pressured into it, and with the foreknowledge she's in the closet, it's an experience a lot of LGBTQ+ can relate to. It's a good episode.
It may not be a highly remembered simpsons love story, but it is certainly better than the majority of all the "Homer and Marge love/marriage problem" plots that have been chewed up and spat out in the entire series. Even without the context of the "look into the future episodes", it just feels so boring to see them have a fight and just get over it in 22 minutes. There just isn't any weight behind it, as seen in "Codependance day", Homer can do whatever he wants and because 'The status quo is God' Marge will always forgive him. It's just a plot that wastes screentime, and I hope future writers just stop using that as the crux of every episode.
No, that's "A Fish Called Selma", the one you're talking about is "Black Widower" (with Sideshow Bob). Both Bob and Troy have a relationship with Selma, not Patty.
I would love a look over the history of Patty and Selma if you haven't already done it. Watching the series through for the first time now, and I noticed as I get into the mid seasons (i.e. 12, 13 and 14) and maybe even starting in season 9 they show up less and less. I just want to know, what happened?
While up to this point the show had done a couple of episodes where (while still keeping the family involved) a focus was placed on other characters, such as "Krusty Gets Busted" and "Two Cars...Three Eyes...," this is the first episode you could say STARS supporting characters. That in and of itself makes this a crucial episode in the series' history.
Forgot about this episode (only saw it a few times as a kid) but it did remind me about how I dated a friend who later came out as a lesbian. It was awkward to hear that but it made sense considering she too had a thing about being touched and the one time we kissed feeling empty and like she felt obligated to. I don't know, maybe it's more relatable because of that, but it does hit different now that I'm older - I think a lot of episodes do that now and I can appreciate it more.
Honestly, this is actually one of my favourite episodes of the early years. It's not a rollercoaster of laughs and excitement, but it feels so cozy and real. I love the small character moments with Barney, Homer and Selma especially.
I have a soft spot for this episode because I missed a lot of season 1 and 2 when I got into the show. When the Simpsons went into syndication, this was one of the first episodes I watched and taped off my vcr. I know this one by heart.
I thought this was an interesting episode pulling away from the stereotypes of sitcom romances a bit. It's not puppy love, or a revolving door of partners, it's an interesting look at the depths of people as they age looking for relationships and that sometimes external pressure or fear of being alone can drive you more than "true love" in some relationships.
I have LONG suffered as the only person in the free world who considers Selma his favorite character, followed closely of course, by Marge. Then the other Bouvier sister, i forget her name.
such an interesting video!! This episode has the interesting quality of being quotable in a non-humourous context. "It's time to give away my love life like so much cheap wine" is such a good line.
i watched this episode for the first time completely blind yesterday, and it made me realise that Patty and Selma are probably my favourite characters in the series, I don't even have an explanation for why, they just completely work for me
I just think about Skinner all overjoyed looking over his educational demense like a lord crying out "Kallo Kalay!" and smile. It's a fantastic episode and one of my favourites
I feel like this episode is also lampshades in that treehouse of horror episode short with the killer crusty doll. “There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality”
I've always liked Skinner and Patty/Selma-focused episodes individually, so Principal Charming has always been one of my quieter favourites from this era of the show (which i continue to love more and more, these down to earth relationship-driven stories are always such a great change of pace from the bigger, wackier episodes post-Homer at the Bat)
Yes, I love this this choice of topic for the video! Funny enough, I listen to the Talking Simpsons podcast episode (which features Gayest Episode Ever host Drew Mackie) on this episode to fall asleep every night. I don't even know that I've ever watched this episode in whole. I need to get to it. Thanks for another great informative video Jims!
6:20 I seemed to recall an episode of The Simpsons back in the day when Artie ziff came back where during the episode he and Selma hook up and it turns out at the end he's no longer interested in March but is instead interested in Selma needless say he goes to prison but before I stopped watching the symptoms all together I was kind of hoping that someday they could have brought him back and they could have revealed that Selma and Artie have been keeping in touch via a prison pen pal program.
I always really liked this episode. It's a nice grounded one to watch after one of the more bombastic episodes like Homer the Clown, or 30 minuets over Tokyo. It's just a nice little story with a lot of personality.
Back before homosexuality was known and accepted openly it was very easy and common for gay people to come off as totally asexual or aromantic. With no outlet for what they actually felt or desired the idea of sex and intimacy become totally meaningless to them. Like searching for a hidden key so long you convince yourself it doesn't exist.
Loved the video Jims, it really is an interesting case with the context we've gained as the series goes on. Also, appreciated the nod towards Ace people. Happy International Asexual Day to all the Aces out there!
This might be one of my favorite videos of yours to date, partially because I’ve always loved this episode, and believe me, when I found out Patty’s a lesbian, this was actually one of the first episodes that came to mind. (I say one of the first, bc for some reason, the first episode that came to mind was the one where Selma marries Sideshow Bob and Patty misses her sister.)
This and old money are both episodes I think have really subtle stories that are very interesting. Sure they aren't insanely funny or crazy but I love how we have these two nonetheless. Old Money is a very overlooked episode, although it doesn't stick the landing its first two acts are amazing.
I feel like with the retrospectives and Simpsons Histories, I've been covering a lot of the later Simpsons content on the channel, so I'm trying to hit up more classic Simpsons reviews for the Extra Seconds. I had re-watched Principal Charming recently and was struck by how much is going on in it, so it seemed like a good chance to revisit this over-shadowed Season 2 episode.
So are the 60 Second Simpsons reviews pretty much discontinued now?
@@AnimatedChris1987 Kinda, sorta, maybe. They ended up being a bunch of extra work when I was already writing the longer review. I could see them coming back randomly and for special occasions but they are a bit of a relic now
(Funny enough, my TVTropes entry had said I was doing Extra Seconds without 60 Second reviews, even though it wasn't true at the time. But then I ended up doing that later anyway, making the entry correct again.)
Just don't wake the sleeping Yoshi everyone.
@@TheRealJims maybe you could bring them back as TH-cam shorts? That would be kind of interesting, might get some new viewers, regardless keep up the good work and thanks for the content!
maybe Simpsons histories on the cities outside of Springfield, shelbyville, capital city, ogdenville, etc. idk if there's enough info out there, but just an idea.
I feel like a video on Patty and Selmas divergence other time from being effectively the same character would be super neat.
Especially since this is arguably when it started.
Potatoes are neat aswell
@@matthewkoester1640 Terry was born a boy would be a great solution to their difference
@@ridanann That wouldn't change their personalities in the slightest
@@royalblanket it wouldn't need it their personalities are the same we can only change what we don't know unrealistic Lee we don't know if they're both cisgender lol Plus it explained Terry WTF calls a girl Terry Teresa Terry just sounds weird just say tea if you want to shorten it Terry makes sense for Terence though I thought I got it enough that it's basically my headcanon now hell I would even help write the episode lol I think I have trans kids to know the gist of it
The episode might not be in my top 10, but "POSSIBLE HOMER SEXUAL" is easily in my top 10 sight gags for the series.
Its so brilliant a) because of the earlier set up at Moe's, and b) it implies that Homer thinks the word 'Homer sexual' exists because gay people find him, Homer, attractive
Patty was the actual Homer Sexual all along.
@@jb888888888 the real Homer Sexuals are the friends we make along the way
This is one of my favorites to rewatch as an adult. It perfectly encapsulates the weird atmosphere of middle-aged dating. I especially love the rotating restaurant scene: the "Food tastes better when you're revolving" line absolutely nails the type of thing a square like Skinner would say, in a desperate attempt to win someone over with something witty that is anything but; a brain flailing around to make small talk but failing to latch onto anything interesting. It doesn't mean anything and isn't a joke on its own, but nothing says both "charming" and "charmless" at the same time quite as much as that line.
In retrospect, this episode feels like an accidental exploration of compulsory heterosexuality for Patty.
I love these more grounded and realistic stories from the early Simpsons. They're enjoyable in isolation, but beyond that they laid the ground for shows like King of the Hill. KOTH did grounded, realistic drama so damn well while still clearly being a cartoon.
While Skinner gets his heart broken, I love that he starts off as a person with a full life. Unlike poor Selma, he isn't desperately seeking anything. He just happens to fall in love. And when that love leaves him, he still has a full life. His pledge to get back his school shows that he's going to be fine. He has a purpose with or without Patty.
This is why I'm subscribed to his channel. There's no other Simpsons related channels that can deep dive into low-key and often forgotten episodes like these. Made me re-evaluate such an overlooked S2 episode.
Thanks! I get a little bored sometimes talking about what works about the super popular episodes (and there are already a lot of breakdowns of those).
(At the same time, videos like these are why my channel will never become mega popular) 🤣
Agreed....the well is so deep and that brings me comfort. RealJims is that dude.
Pros:
- Well edited, regular videos
- Dislikes the boy
Cons:
- Too attractive
Some things I always take away from this episode:-
1) I miss this version of Skinner. The counterpart and authority that stood against Bart. He got the last laugh in this episode. Bart's rebellion was always fun, but he needed an adversary.
2) The sheer disinterest Homer has to his in-laws and how that's built into the plot. He's the one that mixes them up (twice) that introduces Patti and Seymour.
3) More fostered Simpsons dialogue from the early series. Everybody remembers embiggened and cromulent, but not Jeezum Crow. The latter became prominent in the comics though...
I use Jeezum Crow all the time. It's a very cromulent phrase.
"Patty is only attracted to women"
Well, women and Richard Dean Anderson.
Understandable.
Concerning Bart, this is what I was thinking:
"Maybe it was one of the other Barts, sir."
"THERE ARE NO OTHER BARTS!"
"Uh-oh."
I've come to appreciate this episode as i become older because it's the first to focus on the bouvier twins but also the first to diferentiate between the two
It’s really really weird to hear the episode borderline call Selma an incel with Marge saying that Selma had “celibacy thrust upon her”
It's true though if she's being forced into celibacy since "incel" means "involuntary celibacy" - "involuntary" means you didn't choose it.
Is it even celibacy though? The show seems to suggest in later seasons that she doesn't have too much trouble sleeping with men, just keeping them.
@@BB-te8tc exactly. More than celibacy, it is the lack of a steady relationship
@@BB-te8tc Maybe those dates and relationships she had were so traumatic that the only way she feels she can have any control now is by abstaining from sex
Most people are by definition "incels"
They don't all act like asshats like certain people online.
First episode with Groundskeeper Willie, that in and of itself makes this episode worthwhile!
In a retrospective look, the story offers up some fascinating questions about Patty and Selma. The most interesting to me is Marge’s quote about them; “Patty chose the life of celibacy. Selma simply had celibacy thrust upon her.”
By who? Because Selma is shown to have relationships often, where Patty rarely does. Did the men in her life thrust celibacy upon Selma, or was it actually Patty? Patty butts in and prevents Selma meeting that security guard, after all. How long has Patty been jaded and closed off, and has she pushed that onto Selma as a means to always have someone who still understands her? That line can be read to have a shocking amount of subtext about Patty and Selma’s relationship, with some unpleasant implications about Patty. Perhaps Selma and Seymour are perfect for each other, as they both have someone ruining their romantic life; Patty Bouvier and Agnes Skinner.
The other is, why, if Patty has been obviously lesbian since her teens, as seen in her coming out episode, did Selma, who surely would’ve realised this too, push her to date Skinner? Obviously it’s the continuity being played with, but it offers another interesting concept; perhaps Selma knows Patty is gay, but is so desperate for love that she pushes Patty into it to try and live vicariously through it, only to realise this makes her feel worse, bc she knows it’s what she wants and not what Patty wants. Is Selma so lonely as to try and manipulate her closeted gay twin sister to be with a man so that she could feel love, too? Is her line about “giving up [Patty’s] last shot of happiness” actually about herself, and a desire to return to a more codependent lifestyle with Patty, bc she feels unworthy of love for it all?
There’s a great irony that despite being punchlines of the episode, Patty and Selma are potentially made intriguing, complex and human by this story. Kind of makes me root for Selmoe all the more.
I took the line to mean that, while patty's cold and rough exterior is a result of her choices, selma ended up in the exact same place for reasons that are, at least as far as marge is concerned, outside of her control. Patty is perfectly fine being as miserable as she as, whereas selma has been pushed into this state by the world. There is the subtext that this is in part because of patty, that in finding solace with her sister selma became doomed to become her, but I think there's just as much an argument to be made that patty's scaring off suitors is to protect selma from yet more heartbreak. the real interesting unspoken dynamic is between selma and marge, because its entirely possible that had not marge found homer she would have ended up like selma. Selma may hate homer, but what she wants out of a relationship is fundementally what he has with marge. Maybe selma and patty's treatment of homer is related to patty's treatment of men interested in selma, idk.
I kinda wish this turned into a friendship between them. Patty could bring out some of Seymore's edges, make him less of a dork by virtue of her being so abrasive.
Thanks for this video, I think I've hit that point where I'm old and smart enough to appreciate classic Simpsons on a level I wish I could've back when it was just "Simpsons." Your videos help me realize this and want to go back to those early seasons.
Is the bell tower the rumpus room of the elementary school? Now we need a Simpsons mysteries video about the inconsistencies of that building as well.
The school has been destroyed and rebuilt several times throughout the series. That accounts for any inconsistencies in the layout of the building
Another way in which hindsight helps this episode is it gives us a little insight into the loneliness of Skinner which makes you route for him a bit more when the Edna romance does come around, and what he says in the S8 episode about him being a virgin gives us extra subtext about his position in this episode too
Patty breaking up Skinner and him just sobbing his heart out is for me the saddest moment in the whole show. He's such a pure boi and I really respect Patty for being honest with him. Him getting that triumphant moment of proclaiming "Tomorrow is just another school day!" is when I realized how much I loved this character.
I appreciate these deep dives into the smaller stories and the more subtle and nuanced aspects of the show. So kudos.
I remember really feeling for Selma when this episode came on back in the day. And looking back on it now, her and Skinner could have been one of those unusual character pairings that just works, the same way Ned and Edna did. I haven't given up on Selmoe either, though.
Also, had the lesbian reveal never happened, I would have totally been on board with Patty as an asexual person. You could definitely read this episode that way, I think. Barring, y'know, the context we got later.
Considering that Patty came out after most people stopped caring about the Simpsons, I still consider her asexual.
You can be a lesbian and asexual, so technically, it isn't off the table at all.
@@shorewall Honestly same
I really loved this episode and appreciate this edition of Extra Seconds especially so, for taking me back to a childhood favourite (yes, I am English). I think that the fact that we don't see this story told from Patty's point of view was a really smart choice by the writers and, I believe, is ultimately what allows the viewers to let the "will-they-won't-they die with the episode and not always want them to be together for the rest of the show, learning a lesson in supporting others to live their best life.
We always see the story from the perspective of everyone around Patty whom want it to work for her, evidently far more than she wants anything to do with the entire situation. It really sends the message home of "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it take a drink" and tells a valuable story, for its time, about respecting peoples dignity in making their own life choices.
At the time of the episode's production, women were first learning en-masse what the difference in lifestyle choices earned by the freedoms gained through the women's liberation movement of the late 60's early 70's would mean for the later stages of their lives, and how this might be different from anything role modeled or imagined for them beofore.
This episode very boldly shows a woman coming to terms with that reality, not because she had not made peace with her choices but that everyone that was important to her had not come to that same understanding. The perspective allowed us as the viewers to feel that pressure and see her, albeit brusk, graciousness in capitulating to dating Seymour, and even allowing herself to be open to the possibility that she was wrong to "chose a life of celibacy".
All of this was thoughtfully written and visualized to bring the audience to a place where we understood and respected Patty's choice even if we would have chosen differently in her situation. Though the viewers may have been a little heart broken by it this was remedied by the fact that we knew from the very outset it was an entirely unfair expectation that we were just as happy to overlook in our pursuit for Patty and or Seymour's happiness.
Like many of the best "beyond comedy" episodes of the Simpsons they tuned into the zeitgeist and told a wonderfully unexpected tale that resonated more than a half hour of cartoon comedy should.
I truly didn't set out to write an essay it started as a 2 line thank you and then got me thinking 🤣🤣🤣. I love You TheRealJims, thank you.
My favourite scene from this episode was when Skinner shouts “SIMPSON” when Bart writes Bart in the grass, then he says “There is no other Bart” when Bart tried to make the excuse that it was another Bart
It's amazing how iconic all your audio cues are now
‘abstractions of rain’ gives me Simpsons nostalgia even though it has never been in the actual show 😅
Find myself appreciating Patty & Selma much more as I get older. Underrated comedic characters
As a queer person who has tried “straight” relationships and found how miserable they made me, I think this episode has aged really well when viewed in the “Patty’s gay” context. Lots of gay people feel pressured by society, family and friends into at least *attempting* relationships with members of the opposite sex, even if they know it will never make them happy. As a story about that kind of situation, Principal Charming is left looking a lot more interesting than it ever was in the 90s.
I do wonder if maybe that was intentional, it was during a time period where you couldn't really be that overt about queer characters. It wouldn't be the first time a writer tried to sneak such a character in using subtlety. But of course it could just be a happy accident.
@@shadenox8164 it wasn't intentional
They managed to make Patty likeable, i remember seeing this episode, it was beautiful, how she wasn’t interested about Skinner at first, but they shared a really nice date, thought Selma wanted desesperatly to be with him, but that failed as Homer confused them both.
When Patty came out as lesbian, she was the opposite of being likeable, she tried to antagonize Homer, the same guy who played the pastor, marrying couples of the same-sex.
I get it was a different time about Patty, but she lose what made her great in this episode, making an effort to enjoy the company of someone else like she did with Skinner.
Principal Skinner.
Pros: uses big words, dislikes the boy, well-groomed.
Cons: possible Homer sexual.
I love this episode literally so much
I Will always love Homer’s Bowling Pin mobile. Truly a great piece of Homer Simpson Nostalgia. This episode does indeed have several classic moments.
I think this is an accidentally fantastic representation of comphet (compulsory heterosexuality). The idea of Patty just doing this because she kinda feels it's expected, kissing Skinner cause it will make him happy, slowly gaining fondness for Skinner and thinking it must actually be love. While I think all of this was unintentional, comphet not being talked about in mainstream culture until recently, it's really interesting in retrospect considering what we know about Patty now
No,no. She was always a lesbian, didn't you watch the lesbian episode?
@@acacacacacacaccaca7666Timeline weird
@@acacacacacacaccaca7666She wasn't always a lesbian. Then why is she attracted to Richard Dean Anderson?
Making Patty a lesbian seems like a move to make The Simpsons fit with the times we're living.
Why don’t you people just stop being evil
@@i.m.2377 she could be bisexual
Can't get enough of that wonderful Extra Seconds stuff
Bro, I dunno why it hit me more this time than usual, but your writing is absolutely amazing.
Thanks! I was actually pretty anxious about the writing for this review (since there are so many readings for the episode) so am glad to hear that it came together well
Scan*
"Principal Skinner"
Pros
*Well groomed
*Uses fancy words
*Dislikes the boy
Cons
*Possible Homer Sexual
Love to see appreciation and analysis of this one. Not every episode can start an arc, and I think that false start episodes still show us great character moments. Also the dry humor in this is my favorite of season 2
this episode really highlights how much more there is to Patty and Selma. they're not just there to be bitter and annoy Homer.
additionally, it explains why Skinner and Agnes are at Patty's wedding to Veronica.
I always liked Homer Simpson's Terminator like determination.
That one guy who glares back at him sold the joke for me.
He's programming seemed to have malfunctioned since he put CON: Is a Woman for Paddy.
I love this episode! It's so underrated
I love the part of the episode where Homer is watching football and we see the quarterback on the TV have his leg hyperextend forward, then he falls on his head and dies with XX eyes.
@@matthewkoester1640 it’s one of the most surreal pieces of early Simpsons animation, but nobody talks about it.
Really underrated episode. Love this one
3:45 How appropriate, Happy international asexuality day!
When I saw that was trending on Twitter earlier today, I thought that was the coolest coincidence that this ended up releasing today
You know, what I really love about this episode is how deep it is. It is not just the ambiguity here, but also establishes Patty and Selma's unique bond and shows us quality traits of Patty (that we love to hate on) that Selma lacks. Patty is just not able to get herself to leave her sister Selma, yet Selma has done so countlessly towards Patty after getting married. Despite Patty being revealed as a lesbian, it seems she still gets jealous when Selma is successful at a relationship (true to both admitting in separate episodes that they are just jealous of Marge and Homer). Patty is also hinted to be bi later on rather than a complete lesbian.
In regards to Patty's feelings for Skinner, I am personally convinced she genuinely grew to like Skinner. If we pay close attention, notice Patty goes on multiple dates with Skinner voluntarily and dresses nicely for him. True to her character, Patty is very subtle. Later episodes make Patty's reasoning for rejecting Skinner clear- Patty stayed true to her words.
A state of the art TH-cam channel, where viewers are held in place… with magnets!
Patty is one of the consistently least interesting characters on the show. I think it's interesting though how much more depth there is to Selma. They are both lonely and very apathetic. However, Selma still puts herself out there every so often whereas Patty hardly ever does.
Agreed. It's very hard to root for Patty the same way we do with Selma. I'm in the same boat as Jim and want the writers to finally just give Selma somebody like how they did with Edna before she was eventually killed off.
she doesnt need to put herself out there to be intresting, and its not like she never has
I like the talk Homer and Marge have about Marge’s sisters… weird I know, but him trying to remember if Patty didn’t like to be touched is a subtle detail of Homer actually listening to Marge that feels natural… even tho he don’t like her sisters, he paid enough attention to Marge’s convo that it’s actually sweet…
Before the series finale airs, one of my greatest hopes is that Selma finds someone and ends up happy.
The scene with Homer scanning different people is hilarious.
I love the low key feel of your videos.
I had a DVD where this episode was the only one that played and I loved it every watch.
Principal Charming is one of my favorites in S2, and I appreciate how it portrays unconventional bond Bouvier sisters have, which never was revisited since then, and it gives honestly better look at Patty's personality than any further update on her. We first learn Selma & Patty not being merely "Gruesome Twosome", but having different, even opposite aspirations in life, and one, possibly, even secretly complying to other's behavior in order to hide her sensitivity. We further see Selma's individual vulnerable heart in I Married Marge and Selma's Choice as well, so her development persists, while Patty's cold attitude apparently needed some update so she could be more dynamic figure on her own, thus, I guess, her closeted state was invented (but I also assume, it would be inner joke deemed to be potent enough to be promoted to implication and, eventuallty, canon.
My assumption is, eventual choice for going with her character is mostly due her fitting into archetype, as crude as it is, but in the vein of all other stereotyped side characters on the show, and there is easy to mine comedic potential from her sexuality than from life of celibacy implied in Principal Charming.
By the way, is here a lot of asexual (strongly implied, evident from context, or fully disclosed) female characters in mainstream TV shows even to this day? Wikipedia (some time ago, at least) listed few cases of canonic ace characters in animated shows, with only one female, I believe, and even that one is muddled by character being of non-reproductive alien species (and, I guess, not listed girlfriend of Todd from BoJack, which is one of (also very few) canonic male ones, and clearly supplementary to male counterpart). I assume main issue is in complication of direct approach to such character, let alone on the comedic (or children-oriented, for that case) shows, but also it seems like some stereotype persisted when it comes to female characters. You basically can't have non-traditionally feminine heroine in TV show - animated ones, for any audience, at very least, who doesn't get girlfriend sooner or later, but any hint of female character explicitly not wanting relationship at all is almost non-existing for some reason. Patty in PC, as old and most likely unintentional, and probably, stereotyped - and not flattering one - example may be (one of?) the most decent portrayal of asexual woman on TV from what I can recall, even admirable to some degree.
Honestly, after listening to Talking Simpsons podcast on the subject of that episode, I can agree Skinner and Patty did convincing, if awkward and non-glamorous, couple, and their mutual understanding in the minute of their break-up testifies to some legit bonding between two. Personally, I hope (faintly) that, decide the show to close the book on Selma's pursuing of marital happiness, they will do full circle and get her and Skinner together at last. Their personalities, with all development they got over the years, are matching each other pretty well, and there is potential for healthy family unit between those two. If Moe can finally get proper relationship, one for Selma is also not a draw.
Great, great work. Your dedication is appreciated.
Thank you for doing this one! It is among my favourites, and I love how ambiguous and understated it is. Love that dank corridor. It is refreshing to see a story where the romance doesn't work, and it is no one's fault; there is just something inherently incompatible. Between this and a few other moments, I feel the writers probably intended Patty to be asexual or gay from quite early on, and they are certainly very consistent about distinguishing her from Selma. It has aged astoundingly well (unlike nearly anything post season 10 referring to LGBT stuff!) whilst being a nice little bit of insight about how any non-hetero sexualities were swept under the rug back then. It is low key a very efficient episode as well - it basically has three plot lines plus a set up with the BBQ stuff but they all mesh together to form the story really well. Very nice to see someone talk about this gem of an episode.
I like it. Patty feels like she needs to live a heterosexual life. It was the early 90s, and being gay wasn't socially acceptable. The relationship between Patty and Skinner feels awkward and one sided, with Patty feeling pressured into it, and with the foreknowledge she's in the closet, it's an experience a lot of LGBTQ+ can relate to.
It's a good episode.
It may not be a highly remembered simpsons love story, but it is certainly better than the majority of all the "Homer and Marge love/marriage problem" plots that have been chewed up and spat out in the entire series.
Even without the context of the "look into the future episodes", it just feels so boring to see them have a fight and just get over it in 22 minutes. There just isn't any weight behind it, as seen in "Codependance day", Homer can do whatever he wants and because 'The status quo is God' Marge will always forgive him. It's just a plot that wastes screentime, and I hope future writers just stop using that as the crux of every episode.
"Just tell me what I want to hear"
"I'm dying of jealousy"
"Thank you" (I think this might have been the Troy McClure episode?)
No, that's "A Fish Called Selma", the one you're talking about is "Black Widower" (with Sideshow Bob).
Both Bob and Troy have a relationship with Selma, not Patty.
Please keep doing old simpsons stuff, love it
I would love a look over the history of Patty and Selma if you haven't already done it. Watching the series through for the first time now, and I noticed as I get into the mid seasons (i.e. 12, 13 and 14) and maybe even starting in season 9 they show up less and less. I just want to know, what happened?
While up to this point the show had done a couple of episodes where (while still keeping the family involved) a focus was placed on other characters, such as "Krusty Gets Busted" and "Two Cars...Three Eyes...," this is the first episode you could say STARS supporting characters. That in and of itself makes this a crucial episode in the series' history.
Forgot about this episode (only saw it a few times as a kid) but it did remind me about how I dated a friend who later came out as a lesbian. It was awkward to hear that but it made sense considering she too had a thing about being touched and the one time we kissed feeling empty and like she felt obligated to. I don't know, maybe it's more relatable because of that, but it does hit different now that I'm older - I think a lot of episodes do that now and I can appreciate it more.
Love that the Bell Tower, and the animation when they go up the stairs, is inspired by Hitchcock's Vertigo.
This is one of my favorite episodes!
Honestly, this is actually one of my favourite episodes of the early years. It's not a rollercoaster of laughs and excitement, but it feels so cozy and real. I love the small character moments with Barney, Homer and Selma especially.
I have a soft spot for this episode because I missed a lot of season 1 and 2 when I got into the show. When the Simpsons went into syndication, this was one of the first episodes I watched and taped off my vcr. I know this one by heart.
As someone who loves Patty and Selma episodes and Skinner/School episodes, this one is one of my favorite classic episodes
I thought this was an interesting episode pulling away from the stereotypes of sitcom romances a bit. It's not puppy love, or a revolving door of partners, it's an interesting look at the depths of people as they age looking for relationships and that sometimes external pressure or fear of being alone can drive you more than "true love" in some relationships.
Please do an Extra Seconds of "Todd, Todd, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?" it's definitely one of my favorite modern episodes
Remember the context and time frame the episode was written in, modern Simpsons has no bearing on past writing.
I have LONG suffered as the only person in the free world who considers Selma his favorite character, followed closely of course, by Marge. Then the other Bouvier sister, i forget her name.
Ah fresh content about a Season 2 episode of Simpsons. Thank you subscriptions.
Can I see the Aurora Borealis?
such an interesting video!! This episode has the interesting quality of being quotable in a non-humourous context. "It's time to give away my love life like so much cheap wine" is such a good line.
I've always loved this episode
I’ve always liked this episode. It’s actually one of my favorites.
Principal Charming is one of my favorites. Pardon the pun, but it has a charm to it with some great character moments.
i watched this episode for the first time completely blind yesterday, and it made me realise that Patty and Selma are probably my favourite characters in the series, I don't even have an explanation for why, they just completely work for me
I just think about Skinner all overjoyed looking over his educational demense like a lord crying out "Kallo Kalay!" and smile. It's a fantastic episode and one of my favourites
Yay, the introduction to grounds keeper Willie, surprised that didn't get more then a passing mention
I feel like this episode is also lampshades in that treehouse of horror episode short with the killer crusty doll. “There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality”
Now I really want to bust out my old DVDs 📀
Thought I recognized the last song... always makes me feel meloncholy, I love it.
10:20 The sign joke makes me laugh so much I don't know why, It's just so Homer.
I've always been very fond of this episode.
I've always liked Skinner and Patty/Selma-focused episodes individually, so Principal Charming has always been one of my quieter favourites from this era of the show (which i continue to love more and more, these down to earth relationship-driven stories are always such a great change of pace from the bigger, wackier episodes post-Homer at the Bat)
Yes, I love this this choice of topic for the video! Funny enough, I listen to the Talking Simpsons podcast episode (which features Gayest Episode Ever host Drew Mackie) on this episode to fall asleep every night.
I don't even know that I've ever watched this episode in whole. I need to get to it.
Thanks for another great informative video Jims!
I love this one!
Huh, this is one of the few episodes I actually remember quite well from Season 2. Most of the other ones I forget about or think they came later.
6:20 I seemed to recall an episode of The Simpsons back in the day when Artie ziff came back where during the episode he and Selma hook up and it turns out at the end he's no longer interested in March but is instead interested in Selma needless say he goes to prison but before I stopped watching the symptoms all together I was kind of hoping that someday they could have brought him back and they could have revealed that Selma and Artie have been keeping in touch via a prison pen pal program.
I just love these vids. And the music ✌🏻
I always really liked this episode. It's a nice grounded one to watch after one of the more bombastic episodes like Homer the Clown, or 30 minuets over Tokyo. It's just a nice little story with a lot of personality.
There goes my last lingering thread of heterosexuality.
Jim, love your videos! : )
Charming in the Italian version was changed in "Seymour", Preside (principal) Seymour Skinner.
Back before homosexuality was known and accepted openly it was very easy and common for gay people to come off as totally asexual or aromantic. With no outlet for what they actually felt or desired the idea of sex and intimacy become totally meaningless to them. Like searching for a hidden key so long you convince yourself it doesn't exist.
Loved the video Jims, it really is an interesting case with the context we've gained as the series goes on. Also, appreciated the nod towards Ace people. Happy International Asexual Day to all the Aces out there!
I totally forget that Patti didnt officially come out as a lesbian until much later in the series.
This might be one of my favorite videos of yours to date, partially because I’ve always loved this episode, and believe me, when I found out Patty’s a lesbian, this was actually one of the first episodes that came to mind. (I say one of the first, bc for some reason, the first episode that came to mind was the one where Selma marries Sideshow Bob and Patty misses her sister.)
Kinda curious about how Bart and Skinner’s dynamic would change if he married Selma and because Bart’s uncle, that would’ve been interesting at least
Ah i love this episode! Great to get in early
You should do a video about Bart’s original blue shirt, why it went away and its rare sightings throughout the show.
Lester stole it.
I loved this episode
history of patty and selma
This and old money are both episodes I think have really subtle stories that are very interesting. Sure they aren't insanely funny or crazy but I love how we have these two nonetheless. Old Money is a very overlooked episode, although it doesn't stick the landing its first two acts are amazing.