Ur not taking into account that the movies r cannon to GT's timeline, in the movies goku (just by powering up to ss3) shook the entire afterlife and that was before the timeskip from z - to - gt and he only got stronger from there And remember Goku was only putting out HALF that energy beerus was only using enough to match it so ssg goku is only half of that feet
What is half of infinity ? I need you guys to understand how dumb shit like this sounds … Goku shook the afterlife vs super Goku completely stopping shockwaves that were going to destroy the macrocosm …. Imagine trying to downplay DBS Goku to give GT Goku an edge , is insane. Regardless Super Goku’s feat is infinitely better
@@MadderEmo and GT Goku in base shook the afterlife again, omega shenron threatening to destroy the universe just by existing. Goku breaking through a dimension in base when against lord Luud. Getting much stronger, then getting a super saiyain god like ritual done on him to get full power super saiyain 4, in this timeline Gohan consistently trains while keeping up with his studies which would give ssj4 full power Goku a nice boost. Now imagine ssj4 Gogeta is literally leagues above omega shenron, same guy who just by existing is threatening the universe while it took god Goku in battle of gods to clash with a god of destruction to pull that off. Let's not even mention the insane possibilities of how strong Goku got after merging with shenron and training during the 100 year time skip
@@Pack52022 That what i literally said to a Super Fan they can't Comprehend that Super didn't Jump DragonBall Franchise into Insane power up i can give them alot of evidence of feats Gt Goku perform and they will still downplay him
you mean the same movie where Vegeta's soul is cleansed and reincarnated while Goku stays dead? That movie? I understand more plausible movies like Wrath of the Dragon or Bojack Unbound, but you can't genuinely believe that a movie where one of the main characters literally dies and has their soul cleansed at the end can somehow fit into the canon. Not only would that completely undermine the entire point of the movie, but it also just doesn't make any sense on a fundamental level
@@mrperfectcell5079 You could definitely say it's debatable but still never outright confirmed. I haven't checked in a while but I think the fist clash also never specifies "in 3 strikes" like the anime does.
Grade 4 is LITERALLY JUST 50 TIMES BASE AND IS JUST AS STRONG AS GRADE ONE BUT WITH BETTER KI CONTROL AND NO STAMINA DRAIN IT ALSO MAKES YOUR BASE FORM STRONGER THROUGH MUSCLE MEMERY STUPID
@@Lol-dw5xb Toriyama didn't outright say how strong Cabba was. The same can be said for many characters. You have to use the scaling presented. In the original DBZ's Battle of Gods movie Goku powered down from SSG to SSJ. This de-transformation in forms wasn't noticeable to Goku himself until Beerus pointed it out. Goku was still fighting at SSG level with just his SSJ power. Beerus noted that Goku's body merged the power with his own, thus giving him a permanent stat boost. DBS' anime carried over this same scenario with episode 13 or 14 having the title of Goku "surpassing" the power of SSG. In that episode, Goku would merge that power with his own as originally stated in DBZ's BoG movie. However, DBS would go the extra mile to show how powerful SSG is with the universal shockwaves that shook and was slowly destroying the entirety of Universe 7. In RoF, both Goku and Vegeta's base form has underwent significant training on Beerus' Planet. Scaling from the previous Arc, their base form has the power level of the SSG form from BoG and then some. This goes into the next Arc, where they meet Cabba for the first time. Vegeta stating that Cabba's base is equal to his own is a clear indication where his base form stands. This also means that Cabba is capable of the same feats from the first Arc in Super, BoG's universal feat.
@Lol-dw5xb That's understandable. When it comes to power scaling, DB and DBZ are the simplest to follow along with not much thought being put into it. GT and Super is when the scaling takes a big jump to absurdity levels.
I'm a gogeta 4 fan since the very beginning, GT was my childhood after all, but somehow i didn't even care if he got humbled by any character. he'll always be in my heart.
4:35 There's one little problem with that statement. Chozenshuu 3 was published on April 4, 2013, not even a week after the release of the Battle of Gods movie (March 30, 2013). The first episode of the DBS Anime aired on July 5, 2015 (Over 2 years later). So, that statement would only apply to the movie version of SSG, not the DBS version.
It wouldn't apply to the movie version of God either because on the actual page, God and SSJ4 aren't actually directly compared. The idea that they are being directly compared is something people are making up and I don't know why.
That statement actually came from Chozenshuu 4 which was released in May 2013. While the statement wouldn't apply to the SSG shown in battle of gods, all the statements used to upscale the form were also said within the battle of gods movie that being Beerus>Vegito and SSG being beyond Goku's imagination
I understand why people hate Goku absorbing god into base, but we have to accept it. Insane gap of power, almost instantly eclipsing all of GT Timeskip in the beginning of Super.
4:35 I'm genuinely curious how people keep managing to get this weird interpretation from the page. In literally NONE of the pages is ssj4 directly compared to God in power or multiplication or anything. SSJ4 is described as being the ultimate ssj form in reference to GT, hence being directly compared to SSJ3. God form also appears in the chouzenshuu but isn't called an ultimate form because Battle of Gods had just recently come out and Resurrection of F wouldn't even be ANNOUNCED until a year later. Thus the writers would have no reason to try labeling it an "ultimate form" when a more powerful form might literally come out a year or two later.
It's because Chozenshuu 4 is an updated version of Daizenshuu 7, which is a non chronological based guide, so there's no reason why it would be in reference to specifically GT. I also don't see why Battle Of Gods recent release would be a reason as to why it isn't labeled the ultimate form, all it would mean is that the statement wouldn't apply to SSB, which is perfectly fine. The release of a more powerful form also wouldn't matter since many guides before GT's release call SSJ3 the ultimate form, so they clearly didn't have that in mind
Honestly the reason Goegta held back was due to him wanting Omega to draw out his full power not to mention you also forgot the fact he had a boost zenaki form his x10 and asborbing and tanking the death ball and you also forgot ssj4 fp and ultra full power
2:03 - 2:05 As someone currently learning Japanese, I’d like to clarify something about the Daizenshuu 2 translation you referenced regarding Super Saiyan Full-Power. While the interpertation you used from Kanzenshuu is a valid translation, "Goku trained Super Saiyan up to its limit, as opposed to his limits" is valid translation, the original Japanese text (from Daizenshuu 2) doesn't have a definitive "topic marker" in the original Japanese sentence, 彼 (he) or その (that). meaning it's also valid to translate it as "He draws out the Super Saiyan power to HIS limits." There are essentially multiple ways to translate Japanese into English, and also as multiple interpretation of it. Now, I’m not here to argue that Super Saiyan Full-Power is necessarily equal to the regular Super Saiyan form in terms of multiplier and power (though, I lean toward the idea that it's simply the regular Super Saiyan state, albeit without the slightly agitated state, and as well as having way smaller strain on the body, compared to a normal Super Saiyan, because not only are there are statements from the manga that heavily implies that, but also some of the guidebooks (even the one where the "Grade IV" name comes from) doesn't state, imply, nor even hinted that it's stronger than any of the Grades. What I'm trying to say is that It's not definitive as you think it is, and nor it is that Super Saiyan Full-Power pushes the form itself beyond its limits, as opposed to pushing Goku himself to his limits while in that state.
@@shenron-senshi I don’t think it really matters whether it says “his or its limits” since both would imply it’s at least equal to grade 3 his tenth dive that would be gokus “limit” in ssj up until that point The reason why the form would be stronger is not only due to goku retaining his calm nature as one of the components of ki is true character but also because he has much greater ki control with grade 4 than with grade 1 which has been shown to affect one ki output which is why it might be stronger than the previous grades
@@mrperfectcell5079 Not really... Plus, retaining a calm nature and having greater ki control doesn't necessarily means it's automatically stronger, you can have very great Ki control, and not be automatically stronger You also need to understand that while improved ki control helps efficiency, it doesn't directly translate into greater power.". Plus, one of the things that fans ignore when talking about this is the fundamental difference between Goku and Gohan and Vegeta and Trunk's training. In the series, the whole point of Vegeta and Trunks's training was surpass the Super Saiyan wall, thus attaining Grade II and Grade III. Goku and Gohan's on the other hand is completely different, as when Goku went Grade III, he immediately found the flaws of the Super Saiyan Grades, and said that they waist too much energy, and decides that the regular Super Saiyan is the best balance-wise. There's also the experience in training between Goku and Gohan, and Vegeta and Trunks. Vegeta and especially Trunks are way less experienced when it comes to training. Trunks said that if Vegeta found that he had Grade III (completely unaware that he already knew of its existence and found the flaws with it), his pride would be broken, which likely implies that Vegeta and Trunks didn't train together. Goku and Gohan the other hand, are way more experienced when it comes to training, and again, Goku found the flaws of the Super Saiyan Grades immediately, and decides to perfect the regular Super Saiyan as it is the best in terms of balance. It's essentially the phrase "Work smarter, not harder".
@ the difference in training doesn’t really matter. The method goku was using to train and teach gohan doesn’t mean grade 4 can’t be stronger if anything I would argue it was to show Vegeta was going about things the wrong way and that this was the proper way to draw out their power more, so grade 4 being stronger would help support that narrative. It also makes no sense for it to be as strong as grade 1 or else goku could have just went grade 2 and bodied cell as we do know he can utilize that form. One if the components of ki is true character so getting rid of that heightened agitated state that comes with ssj would actually make you stronger. We also know that controlling your ki and not letting it expel everywhere can also make you stronger as shown wit mastered blue, kales beserk forms, and many other examples. Toriyama literally said gokus control over his ki is one of the reasons why he is so strong. If two people have an equal amount of ki but one has greater control over that ki than the other you don’t think that person would be stronger? Thats dumb and goes against what’s been demonstrated in the series time and time again. So this guide would just confirm just how much to use things can really influence and affect your power and I already explained why this guide would be saying ssj grade 4 is stronger than the other grades which you have no refutation to other than “nuh uh”
@@mrperfectcell5079, Goku didn't use grade 2 on cell cause he told gohan his robust and bulky muscles do give him more strength but what good is it if the strength he gets from gade 2 if it slows him down.
Wait there's one little problem in the scaling on your vid of the super saiyans grade in el manga legendario it states that gohans ssj2 is like vegetas grade 2 in power but with out the drawbacks im pretty sure grade 4 is implied to be as strong as grade I but without the drawbacks
This video sure loves cherry-picking: 1. Super Sayian grade 4 doesn’t have a higher multipler than grade 2 and 3. It’s literally just super saiyan without the stamina drain (so still 50x) The reason why Goku’s stronger than Vegeta and Trunks is because mastering the Super Saiyan was the best way for him and Gohan to get the most efficient training possible, opting for balance than raw power. 2. GT Goku was able to destabilise Sugoroku Space which was a dimension in between Universe 7 casually with a Kamehameha before he had his tail pulled out. I know this isn’t as impressive as God Goku’s feat but it still shows that base GT Goku while as a kid has dimension busting capabilities. 3. GT is a continuation of the DBZ anime and not the manga. So feats like Buuhan’s screams breaking down the dimensional walls that could collapse the universe in a domino effect and Kid Buu being the strongest Buu is canon to that continuity meaning that GT characters would be scaled way higher. 4. Omega Shenron’s aura itself was the one slowly destroying the universe. Let me repeat that, his mere AURA was slowly eradicating the universe with him putting no effort. If he can do that without even trying then it stands to reason that Omega Shenron with little more effort can destroy the universe and Gogeta curb stomped that!
Yeah you’re coping … ssj grade 4 does have a higher limit then grade 2 and 3 , as when Goku powered up in both the anime and manga , trunks and Vegeta had believed Goku was enough to beat cell. Which means they understood Goku was above them with his higher form which DREW OUT THE LIMITS OF ALL OF THOSE FORMS , as well ITS STATED IN THE DAIZENHUU SSJ GOHAN could’ve beaten perfect cell but lacked the drive to do it as he didn’t want to fight. And to make it worst you already confirmed GT characters don’t have the same feats or destructive ability as DBS , which cabba scales to these people also as well , Cabba scales to a more expansive UNIVERSE CAUSE DBS has a bigger more expansive universe then Z / GT franchise
@@MadderEmo the Z anime also has the macrocosm though? Idk why you think the opposite, also there are different things that show that Super Is lower than what people credit It to be
@@simeon8814 so I’m going off his statement that cites base Goku and Vegeta might be able to contend with Vegito blue , so in that case , if that is the case & Goku feels confident beating a timeline warping Zamasu as well , that cabba should also scale to them in those regards , which would give Cabba a much larger scaling in a vastly bigger verse. My point was never about the macrocosm
@@MadderEmoDude what the heck is this comment? 😂 Super saiyan grade 4 does not have a higher multiplier than grade 2 and 3 because in Dragon ball super Trunks mastered super saiyan and when he was fighting against Blue Vegeta he used the Grade 3 form. Saying that Gt characters don’t have universal destructive feats is very odd considering Base gt goku just by powering up was gonna destroy the entire otherworld. He did that by accident btw. But since you wanna use the Daizenshuu it states that gt gohan never stopped training. Base gt goku beat a gohan and goten who had a 50x multiplier. Power up from baby, and they were the same strength. Gt goku casually beat both of them.
@@MadderEmoLastly, no Goku was not gonna beat the infinite Zamasu. Vegito blue with his full power Final kamehameha couldn’t even destroy one Merge Zamasu. The only way the could’ve won was with Grand Zeno and Cabba does not Scale to that.
I genuinely don’t understand this if character like 17 were able to keep up with ssbss goku before the top which should quote on quote be millions of times stronger then the goku that that faught beerus realistically 17 should at least be ssj2-3 lvl so why can’t ssj4 beat cabba it doesn’t make sense
no such thing as "ssj2-3 level" since they are modifiers and not set power levels. Also #17 is a human genetically modified to be super human that also has cybernetic parts. Considering Mule was able to create Moscoe, a robot on the level of Gods of Destruction, this isn't even all that crazy.
@@ShoddragonI think his point is that when he can get that strong Why do people say the gt characters are pathetic because it doesn't make sense The humans and piccolo while not being full power blue level all still catch up enough to actually be able to viable in the tournament of power and they did it in under 48 hours If that's the case then why do some people treat GT like it's getting shit stomped by super when it's that easy to catch up with gods
2:30 No, let’s be reasonable here. Just because he thinks it doesn’t make it so. Obviously he’s not reaching ssj blue levels of strength, that’s absurd
Im not saying he reached those blue levels exactly as that was a suppressed Vegeta, just that he thinks he grew strong enough to the point where he can one shot his U6 Tournament arc self
I honestly don’t care… my argument is that it’s literally goku and vegeta combined into one, in order to create a being stronger than them both so let’s say current goku and current vegeta fused and made ssj4 gogeta vs cabba who would win?
1)Super Saiyan 2 isn't a 1000x multiplier that's just wrong especially when every other source says otherwise. 2)On super baby 2 and SSJ3 it's referring to power as super baby 2 looks nothing like ssj3.And it just makes sense as he has 3 forms.Super baby (silver ssj), super baby 1(adter absorbing Saiyan energy) and super baby 2 3)SSJ4 isn't 10 times ssj3.Golden Ozaru is.Super baby 2 was 8x stronger than his SSJ and his ssj no diffed ssj3 Goku.When Goku turned into an Ozaru he scared baby sbd they were relative SSJ4 is around 10,000 golden Ozaru as Baby had 1000x blutz waves needed to turn Ozaru stated in show wbd perfect files 3) Massively downplaying the power increase throughout GT ignoring the fact that >base goku surpassed his own ssj at the beginning of the Series >EOZ Goku was already kid buu level >Rildo was stated to be the highest battle power they ever faced as well so it would be the strongest buu >Baby absorbed rildos power, trunks overpowered him later on as aj infant which would mean even fodder like Goten would be stronger than rildo as shown >base Goku beat two SSJs empowered by baby no effort >Base Goku surpassed his own ssj4 in the shadow dragon saga as stated against Nuova Shenron >Goku at least got a 10x increase in again syn Shenron 3) For the perfect file statement about Gogeta the "stand alone" ssj4 is vague but it most likely means SSJ4 Goku + SSJ4 Vegeta x Dozens of times=Base GT Gogeta Why? because that's how fusion works in DBZ.Two fighters at they're strongest added together times 100s of times is base fusion.Also stated in show and Guides Examples: Gotenks - SSJ Goten snd Trunks are android 18 level while base Gotenks survived an encounter against fat buu and is ststed to be stronger than ssj2 Vegeta Vegito - Goku and Vegeta in SSJ3 and SSJ2 had no chance against Buuhan while base Vegito no diffed him.Same thing happens in super with Vegito and zamasu in the Manga Kefla - SSJ2 kefla and caulifla struggled against god Goku while base kefla stomped him Gogeta - In super SSJ Gogeta could fight against ssj Broly while SSJB Goku and Vegeta couldn't with full power attacks You get my point 4)GT has several uni- low multi feats and upscales the movies via hirudegarn but pale nothing in comparison to Bog feat but you downplayed Omega Shenrons universe busting 1st it was all a PASSIVE FEAT with no effort alone with aura alone compared to putting actual effort to attacks.2nd the over time argument is bs as area of effect=/=AP not to mention it was going to be a fast process as Kaioshin wanted to leave IMMEDIATELY as it'd effect them too.Also in an official Toei site black smoke Shenron is stated to destroy the universe 5)Even with all of that even if Cabba is a bit stronger as you said that's not the end all be all.Its only by a slight margin and Gogeta has attacks that push above his wiegh class (big bang Kamehameha,10x Kamehameha and dragon fist) the latter 2 can hurt and kill opponents multiple times stronger than them Also Gogeta has a speed advantage So Gogeta no to low diffs even by your logic
Ok so there are a LOT of problems with your arguments 1). The only thing guides say about SSJ2 is either that surpasses the previous 4 Grades or that it has double the power of super saiyan (doesn't specify which grade) 2) It lacks eyebrows and has longer hair, which is probably what the guide is referring to since guides also say the same stuff about Ultra Ego. 3) I didn't say it was only ten times I said it was AT LEAST ABOVE ten times, 4) Nothing suggests the greater amount of blutz waves amped him to that degree, all that's implied is that they are required to trigger the transformation 5) 1.Prove that 2. You can't prove uub at the end of Z was as strong as kid buu 3.Thats fine I said he was above kid buu who is the strongest buu 4. Baby took his power by going into his body theres nothing suggesting he would have kept that power after he left it, so you can't use trunks beating him to upscale him 5. Prove baby's mind control amped those SSJs 6. No you can't prove Goku was referring to the pre transformed nova shenron as we know Goku is capable of sensing the inner depths of someone's power, which makes more sense than him getting a random SSJ4 level amp out of nowhere 7.prove that again 6) It says stand "ALONE" idk why it would be talking about both Goku and vegeta together, not to mention this entry is talking about SSJ4 Gogeta in specific not BASE gogeta. WE know this because the guide describes his appearance in SSJ4 and its all next to an image of SSJ4 Gogeta, so there is no reason to assume it means base gogeta Those examples you gave all involve either potara fusions, which are stated to be stronger than metamoran fusions, or are fusions contained within DBS, which is fine since I think the fusion multiplier increases as characters get stronger. Also the daizenshuu says that goten and trunks were equally matched with android 18 in base form and were already fighting evenly with her in base, so idk where youa re getting that she was on their level in super saiyan. Also I don't see how you could quantify gotenks surviving a battle with a suppressed playing around fat buu, you can't prove he was using above Majin Vegeta levels of power there. 7) The movies are stated by Toriyama to take place in a different dimensions so you can't use Movie 13 for feats. You also have to prove omega shenron was going to do this passively and with no effort at all AND with his aura alone. Also idk why you are negating its area of effect since it being able to reach the kaioshin realm and the end of the universe is the reason why this feat is impressive at all, because without low multi area of effect it just wouldnt be able to destroy the universe. Shin wanting to leave is fine as it still doesn't imply instaneous destruction like with battle of gods, which was the point I was trying to make. Black smoke shenron being able to destroy the universe is also fine as destroying the living universe doesnt compare to destroying the macrocosum, not to mention I never said GT wasn't at that universal level anyway 8) Cabba also has attacks that can affect things above his paygrade via the galick gun, which in its intiial appearence in the saiyan saga was used by Vegeta to match KKx3 Goku who was stronger than him. Vegeta has only continued to master that move and Cabba can still produce a blast just as strong. 9) Prove he has a speed advantage
@@mrperfectcell5079 1) Fair but it doesn't really change the debate so ehh 2)Weak similarities but it could refer to both,it being as a multiplier doesn't contradict and fits 3)My bad 4)Yeah and 1000x amount of blutz waves (10x multiplier) would get to that degree.Either way 10x SSJ3 is death battle level downplay 5) for the 1st 4 points they can be covered in this scaling by broku72 th-cam.com/video/dc42FlKDVBQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=x-cBkfJ06xrKHQ9v And for the #4 he absorbs energy of strangers to get stronger, that's how he evolved so fast and got so strong(as shown when he massacred and entire crew of passengers gaining their energy) similar to cell 5) It's basic sense?Baby's power + the vessels power I don't need to explain this 6) Because he literally was and didn't know he could transform,and a lot of things in dragon ball power wise are just absurd 7) Potara fusions are stronger but that's because for metamoran fusion strength is equalized for both partners while for potara it isn't and it still applies and it being from DBS doesn't exactly invalidate anything Goku used his 10x Kamehameha on syn Shenron and he tanked it.He got powered up into FPSSJ4 by other Saiyans and is now equal simple really I do agree fusion multipliers get stronger as characters do due to new forms(compare z to super Vegito) For Goten and Trunks being equal to 18 in base haven't heard but I get it from thier fight against her in the tournament.Fat Buu was also playing around with Dabura,Vegeta and Gohan and 2/3 all died and Gohan nearly got killed 7)So is GT and it still tied to a few of the movies that being Dead zone (garlic Jr arc in original z anime) coolers revenge and wrath of the dragon due to wrath of the dragon I don't believe movie feats change much just further upscale GT and make the macrocosm feat more valid Finally I don't have to prove it just watch the show.He wasn't powering up,not going to charge an attack,etc in GT episode 63 all he was literally doing when everything was going to be destroyed was just spreading his negative energy around the world.Also I wasn't trying to negate it's area of effect,my bad on me Just because it's not instantly in a second doesn't change the potency of the attack.A planet level attack that takes 5 minutes is still planet level As for black smoke Shenron the problem is that universe in dragon ball get thrown interchangeably and could mean the living world itself or the macrocosm(as shown in DBS)The reason why I think macrocosm is due to the numerous uni and low multi feats up until that point and most likely as strong as Omega Shenron (cuz all 7 balls) And when I meant "universal" I was referring to the macrocosm which again my bad 8)Correct but Gogeta still has stronger attacks by a LONG shot.SSJ4 Goku was 10x weaker than Omega and would've killed him if not for regeneration with dragon fist X10 Kamehameha would be able to damage opponents 22x stronger (Kamehameha is 2.2x stronger shown in Saiyan Saga) there's also 100x big bang Kamehameha which is game exclusive but I don't think it would be a stretch to say he could pull it off 9) Both DBGT and DBS are well into infinite speed, GT just scales higher into it and has more and better DBS infinite speed would come from shockwave feat while for GT you have >Base Goku and Pikkon moving across the afterlife in 90s z.GT is the sequel to this, while super is Kai which doesn't have it >Kibito Shins Kai Kai affected by baby's revenge death ball >Super 17 reacting and out speeding IT I don't buy anything into immeasurable speed like moving into the future or sugoroko space as those just open up plot holes
@@mappingmapping95 1) It is definitely a weaker connection but official sources do say Ultra Ego is similar to SSJ3 for the same reason. so this definitely would be consistent. While it definitely could be the case that its a SSJ3 level amp the problem is that you can't exactly assert that it's what the guide is saying 2) No not exactly. All the blutz waves have been shown to do is activate the transformation and rejuvenate baby to full power, which seems odd if he was amped as the terminology used was "back to full power" implying great ape baby is just a normal great ape and not some super ultra giga amped great ape transformation. You still need to prove that the blutz waves actually amp his power and if so you would need to quantify by how much, because 1000x the bluzt waves wouldn't inherently mean 1000x the power 3) Ok so the only thing relevant in that broku video is that Goku, Uub, And vegeta cant go all out in the tournament implying they are all above Fat Buu, which is fine as in the anime Goku at the end of the buu saga could probably beat down good buu in base or normal SSJ, as WEAKENED BASE GOKU's Ki could be sensed on earth while he was in the kaioshin realm, which is a feat that Goku couldn't replicate at the start of the buu saga without SSJ3, so it doesnt exactly imply oob is equal to kid buu. Baby can have that energy absorbtion ability, but he never did that to general Rildo, he just hijacked his body and left after Goku smoked him. Baby would also only amp the powers of the person he is infecting not the people he is mind controlling, even so you would need to prove by how much because SSJ Goten And SSJ Gohan normally might even be weaker than buu saga goku Him not knowing about the transformation doesn't mean he still can't sense his transformed power, its also not really a transformation as he is just shedding his outer shell like how Boros wears armor to suppress himself, so I don't see why he wouldnrt able to sense his FP. Also while dragon ball can have insane power jumps its usually due to things like limit breaking, post fusion amps, or getting amps from other people which didnt happen here 4) No its directly stated the potarra ITSELF grants greater power and effect than the fusion dance, which is made evident when Vegito is called stronger than a metamoran fusion despite the fact that goku and vegeta are relative in base form. Not to mention that if the multipliers were the same than fusion and potara would have an equal amp when they are utilized, which would contradict it being stronger Goku was stated to be at half power after getting blinded and got beat down by Omega Shenron on top of that so he was nowhere near full power, there's also no reason to believe he would keep the amp he got from the other saiyans Fat Buu suppresses himself to varying degrees as Vegeta was stated to be stronger than the Fat Buu he initially fought despite that buu being stated to ahve powered up even more than when he fought dabura and gohan, so you cannot really prove he was using above majin vegeta levels on gotenks ESPECIALLY since daizenshuu says that Majin Vegeta was stronger than even SSJ Gotenks before he entered the time chamber 5) no the movies are stated to take place in a different dimensions than the ANIME which GT is canon to, so those events just wouldnt cross over, can you also show that wrath of the dragons is for sure canon to GT (the dragon fist doesnt entail it being canon) I hope you realize that going off of this scene might actuallt entail the universe was gonna be destroyed via a chain reaction through the negative energy spreading and infecting more and more planets, which means omega might not scale to it, there's also nothing in the scene implying he was gonna do it passively or through powering up just that he was gonna utilize the negative energy to lay waste to the universe. It actually does as someone could say destroying a finite universe over time might only require multi galaxy levels of power, it honestly depends on the context of the scene that term can be used for the macrocosum in total, but there's nothing implying here what exactly its talking about, and there's honestly no feats prior to this which i would scale to low multi 6) All of that is fine he can have those attacks, but my main concern is that Cabba hs attacks that can one shot him as well, he is also faster (as its stated more power correlates to more speed) so he would have a greater chance of actually landing those blasts 7) DBS has infinite speed scaling due to Buu being able to destroy the universe which is stated to be infinite and Cabba scales more over buu than Gogeta, which is why he would be faster >that feat is actually in Kai as Kai shows a montage of the otherworld saga meaning all of those feats are actually canon and apply to DBS >Baby did that via affecting the realm kibito kai uses to travel when he uses his kai kai technique, not through his speed, which is fine as there's nothing actually suggesting that the time it takes for kibito kai to travel through this realm to be infinite or inaccessible. What Baby did was essentially like if you were playing minecraft and somehow damaged someone as they were traveling through the nether with to goal of faster travel in the overworld, its more so a power feat than a speed feat >17 was stated to be predicting where Goku would appear and was tracking him the instant he materialized, he wasn't outspeeding the move itself
You missed Super 17 Saga amp were Base Gohan's Kamehameha was thought to have killed Super 17 despite Majuub's punches not working. Anyways debating them is pointless when they watch it with the sole intend to downplay GT while accepting stuff from Super which is later debunked by show itself.
Oh, you got it wrong did you forget one thing all of the movie canon GT Vegeta no Fusion dance so yeah and he’s the one who suggested the Fuison dance gogeta solos
@@Shoddragonsorry incorrect There isn't a unified movie timeline but certain events are implied to have happened in GT possibly just in a different way and no this does not mean that the feats from the movies don't apply as they are still the same characters Vegeta knew what fusion was He did not know how to do it Vegeta perfectly pulling it off implies him and Goku have done it before and Goku also implies he finds it funny that Vegeta is the one offering to fuse implying they have before as well And while you could argue maybe something happened between end of z and GT More then likely not and is less probable then some of the movies taking place in GT The Z anime also took one of the movies from z and made them canon in the show for an entire filler arc, GT is the continuation of that anime So it stands to reason that movies can have happened in this universe
@mrperfectcell5079 he knew of the dance but didn't know how to execute it as he had never done it presumably but does it perfectly in GT So either GT has its own version of fusion reborn that altered the story points A threat occured in the time of peace or there was some unshown event somewhere in the GT timeline Or the devs just overlooked it and said why not although them mentioning fusing before could be related to vegito although it's probably intended to be the dance Because it's showing how far vegeta has come In the buu arc Vegeta barely took the earrings *and in fusion reborn he argued about doing the dance* But in GT he is 100% willing to throw away his pride *because he has matured and grown as a person* to save the earth and those he cares for
What about how Goku fended off both of his sons and base form this Gohan has been training on and off since the buu and Gohan in super train for one day and surpassed super Saiyan God Goku
TBF Kid Buu was already drastically above Gohan and Goten, and Goku was already far stronger than kid buu at the start of GT, so I dont think that can be used to upscale Goku anymore than I already was.
@ even though they wasn’t stronger than kid buu at the end of Dragon Ball Z years later they could’ve trained which Gohan did and based off of supers multiplier for Gohan Gohan should be incredibly strong and GT even if we don’t use that super multiplier, we know Gohan can get incredibly strong and short time probably not in a day, but give them two years of training, he will be able to surpass even his father
@ it’s crazy how a lot of people lowball dragon Ball GT when bass Goku, in the first arc was already above kid buu he literally trained with the reincarnation of kid buu for several years. Who was stated to be the strongest opponent for Goku and he trained with him in his base form.
Ssj4 gogeta has inf speed and stopped a universal attack with a kick. and and tanked something similar to hakai. goku ssj4 got a 4M Times multiplyer and ssj4 is a limit breaker so it forces him to grow to use his max power and potential.
Also your argument of base Goku and Vegeta being blue Vegito level is god awful wank That's like saying if Mike Tyson punched me in the face or I got shot in the face and survived I'm street level.Barely surviving an attack isn't the same as tanking and enduring it not ti mention Goku and Vegeta are clearly injured Also while Cabba forced Frieza to go golden that doesn't put him at Golden Frieza level, only slightly above base Frieza Frieza only has 2 forms his buff and golden form (an SSJB level increase) nothing in between so doing that was overkill +Look at it like this,If I'm being attacked by someone or a dog and I'm forced to pull out a gun: Does that make the person I'm against gun level?No TOP Cabba would be a good 10+ times stronger than his U6 self as blue Goku fought a stronger hit without kaioken
1. That's completely disanalagous as Goku and Vegeta just did tank the attack, they are shown to still be conscious and still had enough energy to amp trunks and assist in the battle with infiinite zamasu. If Goku and Vegeta were like 100x weaker than zamasu they would have just died, so all those examples you gave just dont apply and were a strawman. 2. I didn't say he was golden frieza level it was just to scale him to or above BASE Frieza, which you agreed to here
When Vegeta said that Cabba was equal to him, he was just referring to the suppressed level of power he was using at the time. The TOP makes it explicitly clear that Cabba is nowhere near base Vegeta, as base Vegeta one shots Mona with a ki blast, while Super Saiyan Cabba was gotten dogwalked by her. Final Form Freiza also demolished Cabba with ease, and a weakened base Goku could clash fists and knock around Super Saiyan Caulifla, who scales above Cabba. Caulifla's performance against opponents like Napapa also prove Cabba is nowhere near Battle of Gods levels of strength, as she had to put in a lot of power and effort to overpower him. Napapa was shown to struggle against Basil's attacks, and Basil as shown to be an ant compared to Fat Buu in the Zen Exhibition matches. Cabba is within the Buu Saga tiers of power at best, meaning he gets no diffed by SSJ4 Gogeta.
Have you considered that vegeta gets stronger between the u6 arc and the tournament of power???? He literally went from being pressed by base black to dogwalking rose black in 6 months, comparing u6 base vegeta to ToP base vegeta is ridiculous Frieza also managed to catch up to goku somehow, while doing image training and i dont think i need to mention the fact that goku ALSO got vastly stronger between the u6 and ToP arcs given how he got bullied by kale while in blue then proceeded to clash somewhat relatively with kefla like… literally 15 minutes later TLDR; everyone you mentioned is way beyond BoG god goku level 😭😭😭
@@gorillaman67 Nah I actually had more to say. That was just a test message I forgot to delete. I've been having issues receiving and sending messages lately, so thanks for responding and confirming TH-cam didn't block me or something. But anyway what I actually wanted to say is that Cabba Also grew in strength, and He actually would be stronger than Vegeta if he was Super Saiyan God level without any angel training..so my point still stands.
@@ItsB1998 you do realise by whis own admission, he literally says that goku and vegeta sparring is equal if not better than his own methods of training? I dont see how starting at a power would make you grow faster unless otherwise stated, and correct me if im wrong, but cabba wasnt in any life threatening battles leading up to the ToP, nevermind compared to goku and vegeta literally fighting for their lives constantly in the goku black arc and eclipsing their past powers (furthermore it is a pretty big plot point of the saiyans that they grow vastly during heated battles, just watch vegetas speech to belmod) Like you have to realise that dbs scaling is so absurd that BoG god gokus level of power becomes irrelevant incredibly fast as the series progresses
Bullsh*t. base GT Goku would destroy Cabba or any character in Super, let alone GT Gogeta. GT characters easily speed blitz super characters due to anime base Buu saga Goku’s infinite speed calculation in the afterlife. Super doesn’t have this calculation because the anime isn’t canon to Super. Also since Goku has fought every version of Buu except for Evil Buu, when he says Rildo is stronger than Buu, you can assume he’s talking about the strongest version. It doesn’t matter whether you think Super Buu Gohan absorbed or Kid Buu is stronger because the anime puts at least one of them at universal level being Gohan absorbed Super Buu.
It is stated by toriyama that super completely canon every z anime that happened ,unlike gt which is not confirmed.Watch chuck video of monarch vs db .He literally shown the statement .Super feats are far more concrete compare to gt.
@ no, super is not canon to the z anime because if it was, we wouldn’t see mecha frieza in hell in super because the frieza in hell in z was just his regular form. that would be a huge continuity error if they were part of the same canon. super only uses events from the manga as its canon.
So I just wanna point out that the afterlife saga did actually happen in Kai, we are actually shown a montage of those events happening meaning the feat would apply to super (as Kai is canon to super), but kid buu and all other forms of buu were still stated to be a threat to the entire universe which is infinite in size so he would have Infinite speed regardless. I also already said in the video I think Rildo is stronger than Kid Buu, so that scaling is fine
@ explain the Frieza inconsistency then. he’s regular Frieza in z while he’s Mecha Frieza in super. it doesn’t make sense if super follows the anime including kai. It only makes sense if it is only a continuation of the manga and nothing else.
@@mrperfectcell5079youre missing out on fee key notes in video. Buuhan already had universal destroying feats. He was gonna destroy barrier that holds outer dimensions and that would need similar AP amd would scale buuhan. And End of Z goku is stated to be stronger than anyone in Z anime and manga. GT goku already surpass anyone in Z even before meta rildo is here. Baby vegeta was able to warp kaikai realm. Kabito kai and goku gt were in kaikai. Which is instant btw and yet baby vegeta was able to affect a rralm that had no space or time and yet transcended tye other dimensions. GT goku also has movies feats as we see cooler in super 17 saga. In second cooler movie goku showed immeasurable speed feats as he was fighting while there was not time existing. And even if ignore the GT feats and just use nultipliers. Buuha has same feat in anime of destroyjng universe 7. Base GT actually will destroy cabba tbh. Conaidering how much atringer base gt goku gets in all sagas. Just baby vegeta saga alone he was thousands of times stronger than his bkack star saga counterpart. Personally cabba dont go past base gt goku in baby vegeta saga.
1. Super Saiyan 4 at the bare minimum is a 100 times increase from Super Saiyan 3 since Super Baby 2 was somewhat comparable in strength to a Golden Oozaru Goku, and SSJ4 Goku was comparable in strength to a Golden Oozaru Baby means that SSJ4 has 10 times more power than the Oozaru form thus making it a 100 times increase from SSJ3 or 40,000 to 800,000 times increase from base (depending on how strong you think the Mastered SSJ form is). 2. I recommend you watch Broku's video called "Does Cabba Really Beat Gogeta" in order to understand. th-cam.com/video/vvsYqfn-i0o/w-d-xo.htmlsi=-zv4ut5hicEV_i3a
@mrperfectcell5079 the problem with that is the fact that Baby Vegeta was already somewhat stronger than a SSJ3 Goku when they fought, and that was before Baby absorbed the powers of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bra which allowed him to transform into Super Baby 1.
@ I mean if ssj4 is above his then the form would just make no sense to be only be 10x ssj3 as god is a lot stronger then that me wing either golden oozaru is stringer then that or ssj4 is a massive amp on top or oozarue
The dragon ball fandom being a fucking kindergarden again and you know what dbl the mobile game has a better story than super even shallot and cabba master and student thing is better than the vegeta and cabba one
Nah we literally talking about the last transformation for all saiyans against a random aah bum that just came, no way Cabba would win or survive a single blow. Power Scalling sometimes sound wierd as hell (nice video)
Well, he was taking about Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta fighting ToP Super Saiyan 2 Cabba, rather than the dog-shit argument most people try to use that Base form Cabba is somehow more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. SS2 Cabba can beat SS4 Gogeta, but there will still be a fight, Base Cabba gets atrociously stomped by SS4 Gogeta.
@@Shoddragon Cabba’s not strong enough to beat SS4 Gogeta while in his base form or just using Super Saiyan. Even with SS2, Cabba is only slightly stronger than SS4 Gogeta.
Reminder that omega shenron was merely STANDING STILL and his passive aura was going to destroy the entire universe and other world,remember the supreme Kai wanted to LEAVE asap,so this would going to happen pretty fast
3 Punches was going to annihilate 3 Infinite sized timespace continuums. Goku absorbs that power in his base…… (regarding the anime) Literally BOG Anime Goku in base would be a serious problem to Omega Shenron…. Goku gets stronger than this by the time of the U6 Tournament. Cabba in base is equal to a Vegeta that surpassed god Goku one arc ago. SSJ4 Gogeta gets pimp slapped
@@antiwave5294Out of context:the 3rd Clash was longer and had more shockwaves than the previous 2 and didn't destroy the universe despite a Clash of hakai and Kamehameha 2:Goku doesn't scale to the shockwaves as he was sent flying by them and they were getting stronger the farther, which Is the opposite of inverse square law, it's clear that the Macrocosm feat Is out of context and Goku doesn't scale to it
@ The 3rd Attack was going to Destroy the Macrocasm. Goku canceled out the attack and it was nullified. Even if he was 1/3rd of the attack power he would absorb the same power in his base then go SSJ on top of it. Then surpass that several times over in subsequent arcs . Tf you mean he was sent flying by the shockwaves? What was the 3 punch shit in the anime then? The 3 punch showed a line between Beerus and Gokus Fist to show that the universe destroying punch was nullified . (In the anime) Are we watching the same show? What do you mean out of context ? So the narrator, Whis, Old Kai and Shin are wrong? Bro go rewatch the anime. It’s not that hard
@antiwave5294 yet It didn't destroy the macrocosm despite It being longer and more violent He Simply canceled It out due to hitting with an equal and opposite force, not due to being stronger than the shockwaves, the shockwaves sent Beerus and Goku Flying and got stronger the farther Recheck episode 12, as soon as they Clash, Goku and Beerus were sent flying by the Clash, the shockwaves only kept getting stronger They failed to portray them as universal as Elder Kai explained how they were nullified, not because Goku was stronger Elder Kai said the shockwaves were getting stronger the farther they went despite they sent Goku and Beerus Flying while they barely started, let alone After they crossed the macrocosm I agree that the shockwaves are that strong, I Simply don't think the anime says Goku scales to them I watched episodes 12, 13 and 14 several times these days and nothing proves Goku scales to the shockwaves
@@simeon8814 The narrator, Elder Kai and Whis stated the universe would be annihilated. Even if Goku was 1/3 of that power (3 punch) aka not scaling to the shockwaves he absorbed the power in his base then surpassed it in Super Sayian Dude. Then gets literally infinitely stronger in future arcs. In the Buu Saga he was already Galactic to Mult Galactic against Kid Buu Them “failing” is simply Ki Control.
Characters who are equal to one another have been shown to take full power blows and not flinch & that logic is also flawed as characters weaker than them can still cause them harm. You’re better off arguing how much of a difference in strength cabba and gogeta has to see if gogeta can still hurt him as opposed to trying to downplay cabba and vegeta being equal in base
GT a Hero's legacy states that SSJ4 Goku is roughly equal to Base buu Saga Vegito. Which heavily cliffs GT. With SSJ4 Gogeta basically being SSJ2 Vegito (Buu saga) at best. BoG Godku was far stronger than that.
you do realize that Vegitto is literally the sum of both Base Goku + Base Vegeta multiplied by at least 20. Meaning SS2 Vegetto is 20 times stronger than both SS2 Vegeta and SS2 Goku fighting together. I don't think I need to tell you that the multiplier for this equation is far, far bigger than SS3, being well close to the usual estimation for SSG. You can do it yourself, SS2 was calculated to be at around a 100x multiplier, multiply that by 40x and you have SS2 Vegetto. What's important to know is that, this is the value of the normal SS4 Goku, which is when he unlocked this transformation. It's not at all comparable to what SS4 Goku has at the end of GT during his fight against Omega Shenron, before he grew even more powerful at the end of GT after absorbing all of the Dragon Balls. You guys severely underestimate how strong GT Goku and Vegeta really are.
@@bloody4558 "you do realize that Vegitto is literally the sum of both Base Goku + Base Vegeta multiplied by at least 20." No. He's equal to Goku x Vegeta, per the Super Exciting Guide directly telling us "Goku x Vegeta = Vegito!" Please do not make up saiyan Scholar tier headcanon. God Goku was stronger than anything Goku could have imagined per his own words. That puts him above a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito. DBGT A Hero's Legacy is the epilogue for GT, and clearly states Base Vegito in the buu saga >= SSJ4 Goku. As the epilogue this can be retroactively applied to the entirety of GT. So Base Cabba > U6 Base Vegeta > BoG Godku (Stronger than anything Goku could imagine + Fusing with vegeta wouldnt be enough statements) > SSJ2 Vegito (Buu Saga) >= SSJ4 Gogeta (Dozens of times stronger than SSJ4 Goku) > Base Vegito (Buu Saga) >= SSJ4 Goku (Hero's Legacy Statements) Ya'll severely overestimate GT.
@@OverlyEpux Super exciting guide Is for the manga You want to go over God>potara statements? Gt hero's Legacy talked about It in terms of multipliers and also Sorry but gt eclipsed Vegito far before that, explicitly since episode 29 with Baby Vegeta, also no retroactive thing, UFP ssj4 wasn't a thing etc...
Cabba doesn't win, and i can prove it. Gt goku is end of dragon ball z goku, which toryama says hes the strongest thing hes made and cant think of any stronger meaning arale who manipulates time space and litteraly turns the page of her manga is weaker then end of z goku. So gt goku beats arale as a kid. Even better, the battle of gods movie happened in gts canon as well. Theirs a guidebook that states that the gsmes shows GT goku knows beerus. So in gt during the baby vegeta ark from memory GT goku was about to be put into a infinite dimensional area simular to the world of void thats in super for that saga. While ultra instinct shook the world of void, GT goku in base broke that dimention with one Kamehameha. Before people say it was already broken, it was the game inside that dimension that was breaking, not the dimension itself. Making it known that tournament of power ultra instinct goku gets beat by a base gt goku. No difference. Btw baby vegetas revenge death ball acts like a hakai, wrasing people from existence. Its so bad they dont even go to the other world because even their souls are gone and erased. With that being said, ssg4 gt goku tanked that same death ball. Meaning hes capable of tanking full concept erasure like Superman. Not only that, but the shadow shenron could have one tapped the universe but made the other shenrons instead. Omega shenron full power could destroy the entire macrocosm with full power, not even full power because him existing was doing that itself. Even worse, if the GTs universe forever expands, that means shenrons' auras were so powerful that it made the entire universe feel like it was imploding.
- Arale is a toonforce character and not directly comparable to Goku regardless. The whole "TORIYAMA SAID END OF Z GOKU IS LIKE THE STRONGEST PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE" was fucking ages ago and he never referenced Arale in it either, this was powerscalers making assumptions. - None of the games are canon and no guidebook can suddenly make GT and Super canon to each other. - There is no "infinite dimensional void", Goku got bounced into an area between dimensions and then escaped when he got his powers back by blasting a hole in it. Sugoro himself was able to reach this space with nothing more than a normal space ship, it's not some sort of "high dimension". - Revenge Death ball doesn't have the properties of Hakai or anything remotely like it what? Literally just making things up. - It wasn't "him existing", Omega Shenron was actively trying to corrode away the universe with his negative energy. Regardless this is nowhere close to BoG clash levels of AP.
@@Shoddragon wrong When the boardgame that was so strong it could suppress gokus full power the same Goku that through some scaling can be implied to be stronger in base than kid buu who can be scaled in certain dialogue to be stronger than buuhan who was gonna destroy the universe through simply powering up The board game suppressed that power And when it destabilized its rules broke and Goku got his powers back but still would have been doomed to wander between dimensions forever if he had not blown it up He blew up a infinite space that was in-between other dimensions that very likely could be the dragon balls macrocosm making it wrap around all of that *But why was there still stuff after he blew it up?* Well I'll tell you it's a choice by the animators It's the same when Zeno blows up the entire future timeline They go back and it should really be something we can't even interpret and neither can the writers But instead they potray it as a white bluish looking space with energy still floating around Despite there should be being nothing there is stuff there including the color white It's simply how the animators potray it* And also once again incorrect You can simply argue that similar to Goku The racoondog simply could have had a similar experience while flying his space ship that sent him through a dimensional rift to come across the suguroku space Or he could simply be from another dimension all together, we know nothing of him or where he is from he could even be from one of the other 12 universes if you wanted to argue that It's not that all unlikely also that a vehicle in the dragon ball universe can do unnatural or reality breaking crap like getting into suguroku space There is a plane that can traverse the entirety of other world and get to heaven or hell Space ships that can cross the entire universe in 6 days Machines that can travel through time and make a new history And a vehicle that can take angels and whoever else to another entirely different macrocosm *more than likely* Even the Angels seem to struggle doing this travel so this implies the cube is a vehicle specially manufactured to do exactly as it does While I can't think of any others there are probably other crazy ass vehicles that you can find in the dragon ball universe And finally Yes babys revenge death ball does work like hakai Hakai erases you entirely to the point you simply do not exist Baby states the death ball through its power of revenge or hate will completely destroy Goku every atom and molecule He will never be able to be brought back again and also will cease to exist Not even the soul from what baby is implying Just like with hakai This isn't the only time either while I can't think of them right now there are other types in energy in some dragon ball products that do something similar if not exactly what hakai does and if anyone can remember one please tell me
@@Shoddragon also wrong again by the way Omega let his power corrode the universe however he likely didn't have to do it that way His entire goal was to punish the universe for the misuse of the dragon balls he is also shown to be willing to prolong the suffering of the z fighters instead of just killing them And letting the negative energy destroy earth despite being far capable of doing it himself He wants to corrode the macrocosm with negative energy he dosent have too It's his aura doing it alone And if you take other feats from gt This is not even the most he could do if he wanted to But of course if we are trying to downplay things I could simply bring up that in the super manga zamasu says he's going to destroy the entire galaxy making him only Galaxy level even though you can simply argue he can do more but is just going to wipe out that galaxy outta annoyance Or how it took beerus is 100% power to nullify the final shockwave between Goku and him and keep the universe from exploding Or I could make it worse and argue that it took him and ssg Goku to do it and that it takes 2 destroyers to actually destroy a universe Obviously that's not their intention But I could argue that if I wanted to This is how fiction works Things are debated and people have different opinions on them How strong something is , is in the eye of the viewer There are some dragons that ball fans who think Goku in gt and super can only blow up a few planets And some people who think gt Goku is 6D And some people who think super Goku is a hyperversal god Or how xeno Goku is 10D etc. Some people think gt and buu saga are only Galaxy level or multi solar system level And some people think friezas final form is barely strong enough to destroy planet namek despite him not using it in forever and clearly being in 1st form during planet Vegeta a planet 10x bigger than earth is destruction and in some showings he literally does it with 1 finger Some people use a statement that is technically true if token literally that 2nd form Frieza could destroy the universe It all depends on who you ask Depends on who you ask and how you interpret
This Is taking things out of context For One:Omega was going to destroy the universe Just by existing and not implied to be in a long period of time as episode 63 have Kibitoshin wanting to leave BEFORE IT STARTED 2:God Goku doesn't scale to the shockwaves 3:Goku got another ssj4 level Power up as he fought Prè transformation Nova Shenron in base. The Same Who Is above Rage Shenron Who took a times 10 Kamehameha from ssj4 Goku and sent It back Also daizenshuu 10 says ssj3>Broly's Lssj form which Is over an ssj2 difference on top of ssj God being above Vegito Is outright out of context and isn't even supported by the series While you can debate about TOP Cabba vs Gogeta, the other Cabba from U6 tournament doesn't compare to Gogeta Honestly Idk why yall Need to hype this Saiyan so much when Gogeta wins
1. He was gonna destroy it via speeding his negative energy throughout the universe. I don’t think kibitokai wanting to leave makes it an instantaneous feat just that it may not take like 1000 years or something 2.the shockwaves literally came from goku and beerus why wouldn’t they scale? 3.goku could have just been sensing a FP nova shenron or just gauging his strength which makes more sense than him getting a random amp out of nowhere 4. I gave scans as to why it would be the case
@@mrperfectcell50791:that Is irrelevant since he can condense that Power and other Powers together into attacks, 2:you think that, you don't leave a realm universes away instantly before It starts for nothing 2:Beerus and Goku were sent flying twice and the shockwaves kept getting stronger the farther they went, so why would they scale off the shockwaves After they travel the macrocosm despite they are sent flying by its starting point which Is far weaker? 3:Goku never mentioned Nova's transformation, he understood It later, also Characters do get amps out of nowhere in all series 4:you refer to the Vegito thing? Yeah, the Same Goku Who can't sense God ki, thus have no reference of Power, After king Kai tells him:he could kill you, says:even Vegito wouldn't work despite base Gogeta would be able to kill ssj3 Goku too Also Kefla Is a Good example of Potara>Ssg, especially given the definition of potara amp in super
@ 1. Prove he can condense enough power to just one shot the universe and Kaioshin realm 2. No they weren’t lol and even if they were that can just be explained by the shockwave being both the power of Goku and beerus meaning at worst Goku would be half the power of the shockwaves 3. Just because he doesn’t mention it doesn’t mean he didn’t sense it or could still gauge it. Also show me characters getting random amps for literally no reason 4. Goku can guage the strength of characters without sensing their full power. Goku knew that dabura was on the level of perfect cell just from seeing him kill kibito. This is further supported by both ssg and beerus being stronger than what Goku thought. Base gogeta being able to kill Goku is entirely irrelevant as Goku could just be gushing beerus full power based upon what he’s felt and what he has seen from beerus and judging what his full power off of that in which Goku is super multiple times to be accurate when it comes to sensing the hidden depths of someone’s power despite them not showing it 4. Potara is an A x B multipliers so the boots would increase as characters get stronger
@mrperfectcell5079 1:because the negative Energy Is the Same and he also Used other Powers in the ball against Gogeta, not Just the negative Energy, recheck episode 60 2:yes they were, recheck episode 12, Goku and Beerus were sent flying by their Clash and the shockwaves kept getting stronger, it's not their Power because even assuming Goku Is half of the Clash, you would Need to argue the shockwaves got weaker or were as strong while Elder Kai stated the opposite, again, episode 12 3:yes he does Need to mention It otherwise you Just assume 4:yes he can gauge their strength BY FEELING THEIR KI AS WELL, Goku had no point of reference, no ki to sense, Just knew that Beerus could oneshot him, by this Logic, then Goku still failed unless you think he felt his full Power that surpasses even post black arc Goku, again, no ki=no reference and he was like:wow, he can kill me, so he Is above my fusion which can also kill me in base 4:no It isn't in the super anime, It Is more than the combined Power of the 2 fusees at their peak and then gets an infinite boost, episodes 65 and 114, both Kefla and Zamasu's descriptions match This Also if It was Just A x B then Kefla in base would have dominated even Blue Goku
@mrperfectcell5079 also Idk about you but the Elder Kai and Kibitoshin directly said more than once that Kid Buu was a threat to the Kaioshin realm, you want to say Kid Buu>Omega Shenron?
Vegeta was simply training cabba not actually going serious, he showed cabba blue to keep cabba motivated to keep getting stronger after. While to compare omega shenron threatened the universe by just existing, standing not even doing an energy attack let alone the minus negative energy attack that gogeta not only easily kicked away but also purified it. I dont know why people thought ssj2 gohan beats cabba which is a blasphemous take considering supers scaling but i will definitely fight cabba beating ssj4 gogeta. Also z movies is canon to gt so that further buffs gt scaling. Another note is gt follows dragon ball z anime not the manga which further scales gt higher considering anime statements and feats in comparison to the manga
Definitely a fairer shake than what Lonk gave, but I'm gonna add some stuff to Gogeta's side of the argument. Whether you believe that its enough to put him above Cabba is up to you, I'm just throwing it out there regardless. 1: Goten directly states Baby is stronger than anyone they've faced up until now, meaning even Teen Baby should be above Kid Buu. As you believe Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and Goten was around to sense his power. If you argue that Baby was holding back on Goten and was actually stronger than SSJ Goten, that still puts Base GT Goten > Kid Buu as he was basing that comparison off a suppressed Baby. 2: Gohan in Base had to hold back on SSJ Baby Goten in order to not accidentally kill him, and Baby saga Base Goku > SSJ GT Gohan. 3: In the Shadow Dragon saga, Goku hoes from needing SSJ4 vs Rage and Naturon, to holding his own with Red Nuova who Goku states was stronger than both, while already tired and hungry from running the Shadow Dragon Gauntlet. That means Shadow Dragon saga Base Goku/Vegeta should be > SSJ4 S17 saga Goku. 4: the statement about Gogeta could just mean his version of SSJ4 is a higher multiplier than the normal SSJ4 one. I mean, you dont really say that SSJ Gotenks is stronger than a normal Super Saiyan, because what exactly counts as a normal Super Saiyan? Once again, this might not even sway you to believe SSJ4 Gogeta beats Cabba, but that (alongside stuff you already brought up in this video) is why I at least do. Once again, fair shake,and great video.
@@jamainegardner4193 aside from the baby point, I agree with the rest Goten said that After they fought Baby's goons but regardless, this baby Is above Metal Rildo, even base Rildo>Kid Buu
You forgot episode where Goku says Pan won't have trouble in division Majuub is participating in. And Goku doesn't correct anyone when they say Goku would undoubtedly win the tourney. And Base Gohan's Kamehameha being expected to defeat Super 17 despite Majuub's punches not working. So essentially it would be Base Goku surpassing Majuub in Super 17 Arc. Broku even made a video suggesting his SSJ Goku's power would rival his previous SSJ4. Only problem being Mu is surprised after seeing SSJ4. But that could be because he got stronger rather than not being aware of the form.
Gogeta does win regardless of how he looks. There are some glaring issues in this TH-camrs logic stemming from a misunderstanding on howpowerful Cabba really is. 1. Goku only absorbed God to base in the BoG movie, this did not happen in the Super anime. Instead, In the anime Goku gained a new separate pool of God Ki. That ki does not interact with his power at base, and the same applies to Vegeta, so when Vegetta fights with Cabba at base, Cabba is not scaling up to SSG Vegeta, he is scaling up to base Vegeta using human Ki. meaning, Base Cabba is still around Majin Buu level, NOT SSG level. This only scales him up to Base Goku in GT. I don't even need to correct the other inconsistencies in his arguments. Since this already puts SS4 Gogeta way above Cabba. Just know that there isn't that much difference between BoG arc Goku and ToP Goku, they are not 1000x apart in multiplier. Instead, there isn't much difference in power between arcs in Super, reason being Goku and Vegeta would only learn to use the SSB for real after the Goku Black arc. The manga elaborates this better, SSB has a ki leak issue. When Goku and Vegeta first leaned this form against G.Freeza, they hadn't had any control whatsoever over it. They would waste away a lot of Ki because the form causes a great strain over their bodies. Only in against Fused Zamasu, did Goku finally learned how to keep the Ki from leaking out, allowing for this form to be properly useable. Back then SSG was actually stronger than Blue because it's a form that is as stable as the classic Super Saiyan. In fact Goku managed to hold his own against Fused Zamasu for quite long in his SSG form, he'd only use SSB for one attack and then immediately return and stay in SSG until he decided to attack again. THis lasted until Fused Zamasu used the Rosé form. THen Goku was forced to finally master the SSB form. In the Manga, Mastered Super Saiyan Blue is actually stronger than Super Saiyan Rosé. Or at least, that's what we know. It may well be that Zamasu hadn't mastered Rosé either. So as you can see there was literally no real increase in power between these arcs, what we had was Goku and Vegeta finally getting used to their powers.
SS4 Gogeta would have beaten the brakes off of Beerus in BoG, but that's irrelevant since he is still vastly weaker than Cabba because it is Dragon Ball Super, a show where Goku went from Kid Buu's level to universe buster in the span of an hour and a half. It was never going to work for him 💀
@jpfan4life812 what are you on about Buddy? Is ssj4 Gogeta canon? Canon or non canon is a literal excuse. Real db fans don't care about that stuff besides Akira toriyama himself said GT takes place in an alternate timeline/universe.
Gogeta has unlimited ki and is a saiyan at his absolute prime, has god ki, and scales higher much higher if you include movies and add all Goku gt and vegeta gt feats
Nah disagree the downplay for gogeta is insane also gogeta ssj4 was litrally holding back on omega shenron and was going to kill with just one finger also ssj4 gogeta multiplier and how strong goku got between arcs is far higher than u made him out to be ssj4 goku is not jusg 10x ssj3 as baby vegeta is golden great ape going ssj anplified by 1000 blutzwaves also omega shenron was threatening the entire macrocosm by just existing a greater feat than ssj god clash with beerus also why not take into account the z movies as theu are canon to gt also baby vegeta 1 litrally said he has the greated saiyan power upscaling him above ssjvegito from z as he would vegetas memories with him being fused with vegito
1) He was holding back but Gogeta at most was ten times the power of Omega Shenron, as Omega shenron was confirmed 10x above Syn shenron who was equal or stronger than SSJ4 Goku, while Gogeta was at most 100 times stronger than SSJ4 Goku. 2) There's nothing to suggest the greater amount of blutz waves actually made his form any stronger 3) SSG Goku was also threatening the macrocosum and was gonna destroy it in an instant unlike Omega Shenron 4) The only movies that are possibly canon to GT are the first Cooler movie and Garlic Jr 5) That scaling is perfectly fine, Super Baby 1 can be that strong I never had any issue with that at all
@mrperfectcell5079 yeah but forgot to mention z movie feat should be taken into account also end of z goku was stated to be the strongest in his verse and that no one can beat him in guides which means he is even above arale has performed some insane fictional transcendence feats as arale is canon to dragon ball proven how she helped goku in og dragon ball against red ribbon and it was toriyama intended for her to be canon to dragon ball and no just a crossover character also base goku to scales fusion reborn goku who just by turning into ssj3 was shaking the afterlife and base goku could perform that feat in base form when he fought cell and frieza also he would have immeasurable speed up scaling goku and metal cooler fighting inside the instant transmission dimensions which transcends time and goku was doing that in base back in z movie timeline against metal cooler also the multiplier of ssj4 is much greater than u give it credit it for chuck did a video long time ago how insane the multiplier is above base goku as ssj4 increase in power was comparable to a fusion amp of ssj vegito he had transformed in it back in z in guides also goku than became full power ssj4 in the baby arc also wrong about canon as gt has the dragon first which he used in wrath of the dragon and the fusion technique which vegeta and goku already knew how to do and said they used it before given the only time they used it back in z was in fusion reborn
@@mrperfectcell5079 also omega shenron did that feat of threatening the universe just by existing bro wasn't using power to do that feat his own existence was so powerful it was going to destroy the entire macrocosm a higher feat than just clashing fists in my opinion as that required power to do so and supreme kai even said that they had to quickly leave the supreme kai realm or nothing would have survived in the macrocosm meaning its actually faster than u give it credit for
@@mrperfectcell5079 edit also u can argue even base goku in gt is above buuhan and kid buu as both of theme are relative to each other and u can say which one is stronger but it doesn't matter since general grildo was stronger than buu who goku beat in just ssj and u can even argue goku being relative to ssj vegito in base considering how much stronger grilod is that buuhan or kid buu doesn't matter and also baby vegito with his negative ball was affecting the dimension that supreme kai use and goku use for instant transmission when supreme kai used kai kai to save to goku from baby vegito and goku was lost in another dimension and proceeds to one shot it in base
@@JadoBouhzam no he was going to do it by spreading his negative energy throughout the universe allowing it to infect and pollute other worlds. If anything it’s implied he was gonna do it via a chain reaction which negates the feat completely which still doesn’t compare to battle of gods Also shin wanting to leave doesn’t imply instantaneous destruction
Gt Goku Base Form alone can Defeate Cabba and if you want to low ball him then Super saiyan to defeat Cabba and MrPerfectCell Omega just Existing was Destroying the Universe he wasn't trying to if he was it would have been Destroyed unlike BOG Goku who needed to Clash with Beerus to Achieve that Feat Omega feat is clearly better Edit: Watch the Show are actually Scale Gt before saying Nonsense
give cabba a better design and ppl will prob start to like him lol
No lie if he has a cell saga teen Gohan figure with his size his design would look so much better.
I hate the fact that your right bc of the hell does kid goku have more muscle mass then him...🤦♂️🤦♂️
Yeah I think that's the main reason why. Even Frieza saga Gohan looks harder than Cabba.
GREAT MR PERFECT CELL WHY CABBA VS SUPER SAIYAN FOUR GOGETA ISN'T CLOSE.
Ur not taking into account that the movies r cannon to GT's timeline, in the movies goku (just by powering up to ss3) shook the entire afterlife and that was before the timeskip from z - to - gt and he only got stronger from there
And remember Goku was only putting out HALF that energy beerus was only using enough to match it so ssg goku is only half of that feet
What is half of infinity ?
I need you guys to understand how dumb shit like this sounds …
Goku shook the afterlife vs super Goku completely stopping shockwaves that were going to destroy the macrocosm …. Imagine trying to downplay DBS Goku to give GT Goku an edge , is insane.
Regardless Super Goku’s feat is infinitely better
@@MadderEmo and GT Goku in base shook the afterlife again, omega shenron threatening to destroy the universe just by existing. Goku breaking through a dimension in base when against lord Luud. Getting much stronger, then getting a super saiyain god like ritual done on him to get full power super saiyain 4, in this timeline Gohan consistently trains while keeping up with his studies which would give ssj4 full power Goku a nice boost. Now imagine ssj4 Gogeta is literally leagues above omega shenron, same guy who just by existing is threatening the universe while it took god Goku in battle of gods to clash with a god of destruction to pull that off. Let's not even mention the insane possibilities of how strong Goku got after merging with shenron and training during the 100 year time skip
@@Pack52022 That what i literally said to a Super Fan they can't Comprehend that Super didn't Jump DragonBall Franchise into Insane power up i can give them alot of evidence of feats Gt Goku perform and they will still downplay him
@@ClashMasterStudios I don't completely hate super or completely glaze gt but gt scaling holds up incredibly well still when actually analyzed
you mean the same movie where Vegeta's soul is cleansed and reincarnated while Goku stays dead? That movie? I understand more plausible movies like Wrath of the Dragon or Bojack Unbound, but you can't genuinely believe that a movie where one of the main characters literally dies and has their soul cleansed at the end can somehow fit into the canon. Not only would that completely undermine the entire point of the movie, but it also just doesn't make any sense on a fundamental level
“Please cabba I need this …”
"Your kinda too strong"
“ my fans are struggling to back me up”
Tch annoying brat
"Cabba I'm watching your stream right now"
Using manga cabba is a better comparison since he's weaker
Cabba in the Manga is only relative to pre-Buu Saga SSJ Goku snd Vegeta.
EXCELLENT MR PERFECT CELL WORK. 💪💪💪🦾🦾🦾
@@ojpickle5923 that’s debatable you can still argue goku absorbed ssg in the manga
@@mrperfectcell5079 You could definitely say it's debatable but still never outright confirmed.
I haven't checked in a while but I think the fist clash also never specifies "in 3 strikes" like the anime does.
Manga Cabba would get stomped by Rildo
Base GT goku vs Base Cabba will be fire. You don't realize how busted base goku is.
3:21 everyone is stronger than buu at that point.
Y’all just giving cabba this random power and discrediting the goat.
Grade 4 is LITERALLY JUST 50 TIMES BASE AND IS JUST AS STRONG AS GRADE ONE BUT WITH BETTER KI CONTROL AND NO STAMINA DRAIN IT ALSO MAKES YOUR BASE FORM STRONGER THROUGH MUSCLE MEMERY STUPID
I still believe SSJ4 Gogeta is still winning against Cabba. Its just that Toriyama didn't actually give all character how powerful they are.
He actually did. You just have to pay attention to the series.
@@1DAR26 So i forgot to chat with you, but Toriyama didn't actually give Cabba rate powers in DBS Manga, maybe he forgot because of his health.
@@Lol-dw5xb Toriyama didn't outright say how strong Cabba was. The same can be said for many characters. You have to use the scaling presented. In the original DBZ's Battle of Gods movie Goku powered down from SSG to SSJ. This de-transformation in forms wasn't noticeable to Goku himself until Beerus pointed it out. Goku was still fighting at SSG level with just his SSJ power. Beerus noted that Goku's body merged the power with his own, thus giving him a permanent stat boost. DBS' anime carried over this same scenario with episode 13 or 14 having the title of Goku "surpassing" the power of SSG. In that episode, Goku would merge that power with his own as originally stated in DBZ's BoG movie. However, DBS would go the extra mile to show how powerful SSG is with the universal shockwaves that shook and was slowly destroying the entirety of Universe 7. In RoF, both Goku and Vegeta's base form has underwent significant training on Beerus' Planet. Scaling from the previous Arc, their base form has the power level of the SSG form from BoG and then some. This goes into the next Arc, where they meet Cabba for the first time. Vegeta stating that Cabba's base is equal to his own is a clear indication where his base form stands. This also means that Cabba is capable of the same feats from the first Arc in Super, BoG's universal feat.
@1DAR26 Yeah... But the power scaling, of DBZ>GT>DBS is complicated at the start, but the fans manage to fix it anyways.
@Lol-dw5xb That's understandable. When it comes to power scaling, DB and DBZ are the simplest to follow along with not much thought being put into it. GT and Super is when the scaling takes a big jump to absurdity levels.
I'm a gogeta 4 fan since the very beginning, GT was my childhood after all, but somehow i didn't even care if he got humbled by any character.
he'll always be in my heart.
Thing. The true outcome is Base GT goku spanks Base cabba.
2:00 according the wiki cabba has mastered ssj which its like how.. but he has it.
Good video broski
4:35 There's one little problem with that statement. Chozenshuu 3 was published on April 4, 2013, not even a week after the release of the Battle of Gods movie (March 30, 2013). The first episode of the DBS Anime aired on July 5, 2015 (Over 2 years later). So, that statement would only apply to the movie version of SSG, not the DBS version.
It wouldn't apply to the movie version of God either because on the actual page, God and SSJ4 aren't actually directly compared. The idea that they are being directly compared is something people are making up and I don't know why.
That statement actually came from Chozenshuu 4 which was released in May 2013. While the statement wouldn't apply to the SSG shown in battle of gods, all the statements used to upscale the form were also said within the battle of gods movie that being Beerus>Vegito and SSG being beyond Goku's imagination
@@mrperfectcell5079so, in other words, you were being generous to Gogeta?
This is my favourite db debate
I understand why people hate Goku absorbing god into base, but we have to accept it. Insane gap of power, almost instantly eclipsing all of GT Timeskip in the beginning of Super.
4:35 I'm genuinely curious how people keep managing to get this weird interpretation from the page. In literally NONE of the pages is ssj4 directly compared to God in power or multiplication or anything. SSJ4 is described as being the ultimate ssj form in reference to GT, hence being directly compared to SSJ3. God form also appears in the chouzenshuu but isn't called an ultimate form because Battle of Gods had just recently come out and Resurrection of F wouldn't even be ANNOUNCED until a year later. Thus the writers would have no reason to try labeling it an "ultimate form" when a more powerful form might literally come out a year or two later.
It's because Chozenshuu 4 is an updated version of Daizenshuu 7, which is a non chronological based guide, so there's no reason why it would be in reference to specifically GT. I also don't see why Battle Of Gods recent release would be a reason as to why it isn't labeled the ultimate form, all it would mean is that the statement wouldn't apply to SSB, which is perfectly fine.
The release of a more powerful form also wouldn't matter since many guides before GT's release call SSJ3 the ultimate form, so they clearly didn't have that in mind
Honestly the reason Goegta held back was due to him wanting Omega to draw out his full power not to mention you also forgot the fact he had a boost zenaki form his x10 and asborbing and tanking the death ball and you also forgot ssj4 fp and ultra full power
He said strongest Saiyan form so super Saiyan to 4 not including god Goku
2:03 - 2:05
As someone currently learning Japanese, I’d like to clarify something about the Daizenshuu 2 translation you referenced regarding Super Saiyan Full-Power. While the interpertation you used from Kanzenshuu is a valid translation, "Goku trained Super Saiyan up to its limit, as opposed to his limits" is valid translation, the original Japanese text (from Daizenshuu 2) doesn't have a definitive "topic marker" in the original Japanese sentence, 彼 (he) or その (that). meaning it's also valid to translate it as "He draws out the Super Saiyan power to HIS limits."
There are essentially multiple ways to translate Japanese into English, and also as multiple interpretation of it.
Now, I’m not here to argue that Super Saiyan Full-Power is necessarily equal to the regular Super Saiyan form in terms of multiplier and power (though, I lean toward the idea that it's simply the regular Super Saiyan state, albeit without the slightly agitated state, and as well as having way smaller strain on the body, compared to a normal Super Saiyan, because not only are there are statements from the manga that heavily implies that, but also some of the guidebooks (even the one where the "Grade IV" name comes from) doesn't state, imply, nor even hinted that it's stronger than any of the Grades.
What I'm trying to say is that It's not definitive as you think it is, and nor it is that Super Saiyan Full-Power pushes the form itself beyond its limits, as opposed to pushing Goku himself to his limits while in that state.
@@shenron-senshi I don’t think it really matters whether it says “his or its limits” since both would imply it’s at least equal to grade 3 his tenth dive that would be gokus “limit” in ssj up until that point
The reason why the form would be stronger is not only due to goku retaining his calm nature as one of the components of ki is true character but also because he has much greater ki control with grade 4 than with grade 1 which has been shown to affect one ki output which is why it might be stronger than the previous grades
@@mrperfectcell5079 Not really... Plus, retaining a calm nature and having greater ki control doesn't necessarily means it's automatically stronger, you can have very great Ki control, and not be automatically stronger You also need to understand that while improved ki control helps efficiency, it doesn't directly translate into greater power.".
Plus, one of the things that fans ignore when talking about this is the fundamental difference between Goku and Gohan and Vegeta and Trunk's training.
In the series, the whole point of Vegeta and Trunks's training was surpass the Super Saiyan wall, thus attaining Grade II and Grade III. Goku and Gohan's on the other hand is completely different, as when Goku went Grade III, he immediately found the flaws of the Super Saiyan Grades, and said that they waist too much energy, and decides that the regular Super Saiyan is the best balance-wise.
There's also the experience in training between Goku and Gohan, and Vegeta and Trunks. Vegeta and especially Trunks are way less experienced when it comes to training.
Trunks said that if Vegeta found that he had Grade III (completely unaware that he already knew of its existence and found the flaws with it), his pride would be broken, which likely implies that Vegeta and Trunks didn't train together.
Goku and Gohan the other hand, are way more experienced when it comes to training, and again, Goku found the flaws of the Super Saiyan Grades immediately, and decides to perfect the regular Super Saiyan as it is the best in terms of balance.
It's essentially the phrase "Work smarter, not harder".
@ the difference in training doesn’t really matter. The method goku was using to train and teach gohan doesn’t mean grade 4 can’t be stronger if anything I would argue it was to show Vegeta was going about things the wrong way and that this was the proper way to draw out their power more, so grade 4 being stronger would help support that narrative. It also makes no sense for it to be as strong as grade 1 or else goku could have just went grade 2 and bodied cell as we do know he can utilize that form.
One if the components of ki is true character so getting rid of that heightened agitated state that comes with ssj would actually make you stronger. We also know that controlling your ki and not letting it expel everywhere can also make you stronger as shown wit mastered blue, kales beserk forms, and many other examples. Toriyama literally said gokus control over his ki is one of the reasons why he is so strong. If two people have an equal amount of ki but one has greater control over that ki than the other you don’t think that person would be stronger? Thats dumb and goes against what’s been demonstrated in the series time and time again.
So this guide would just confirm just how much to use things can really influence and affect your power and I already explained why this guide would be saying ssj grade 4 is stronger than the other grades which you have no refutation to other than “nuh uh”
@@mrperfectcell5079,
Goku didn't use grade 2 on cell cause he told gohan his robust and bulky muscles do give him more strength but what good is it if the strength he gets from gade 2 if it slows him down.
Wait there's one little problem in the scaling on your vid of the super saiyans grade in el manga legendario it states that gohans ssj2 is like vegetas grade 2 in power but with out the drawbacks im pretty sure grade 4 is implied to be as strong as grade I but without the drawbacks
This video sure loves cherry-picking:
1. Super Sayian grade 4 doesn’t have a higher multipler than grade 2 and 3. It’s literally just super saiyan without the stamina drain (so still 50x) The reason why Goku’s stronger than Vegeta and Trunks is because mastering the Super Saiyan was the best way for him and Gohan to get the most efficient training possible, opting for balance than raw power.
2. GT Goku was able to destabilise Sugoroku Space which was a dimension in between Universe 7 casually with a Kamehameha before he had his tail pulled out. I know this isn’t as impressive as God Goku’s feat but it still shows that base GT Goku while as a kid has dimension busting capabilities.
3. GT is a continuation of the DBZ anime and not the manga. So feats like Buuhan’s screams breaking down the dimensional walls that could collapse the universe in a domino effect and Kid Buu being the strongest Buu is canon to that continuity meaning that GT characters would be scaled way higher.
4. Omega Shenron’s aura itself was the one slowly destroying the universe. Let me repeat that, his mere AURA was slowly eradicating the universe with him putting no effort. If he can do that without even trying then it stands to reason that Omega Shenron with little more effort can destroy the universe and Gogeta curb stomped that!
Yeah you’re coping … ssj grade 4 does have a higher limit then grade 2 and 3 , as when Goku powered up in both the anime and manga , trunks and Vegeta had believed Goku was enough to beat cell. Which means they understood Goku was above them with his higher form which DREW OUT THE LIMITS OF ALL OF THOSE FORMS , as well ITS STATED IN THE DAIZENHUU SSJ GOHAN could’ve beaten perfect cell but lacked the drive to do it as he didn’t want to fight.
And to make it worst you already confirmed GT characters don’t have the same feats or destructive ability as DBS , which cabba scales to these people also as well , Cabba scales to a more expansive UNIVERSE CAUSE DBS has a bigger more expansive universe then Z / GT franchise
@@MadderEmo the Z anime also has the macrocosm though? Idk why you think the opposite, also there are different things that show that Super Is lower than what people credit It to be
@@simeon8814 so I’m going off his statement that cites base Goku and Vegeta might be able to contend with Vegito blue , so in that case , if that is the case & Goku feels confident beating a timeline warping Zamasu as well , that cabba should also scale to them in those regards , which would give Cabba a much larger scaling in a vastly bigger verse. My point was never about the macrocosm
@@MadderEmoDude what the heck is this comment? 😂 Super saiyan grade 4 does not have a higher multiplier than grade 2 and 3 because in Dragon ball super Trunks mastered super saiyan and when he was fighting against Blue Vegeta he used the Grade 3 form. Saying that Gt characters don’t have universal destructive feats is very odd considering Base gt goku just by powering up was gonna destroy the entire otherworld. He did that by accident btw. But since you wanna use the Daizenshuu it states that gt gohan never stopped training. Base gt goku beat a gohan and goten who had a 50x multiplier. Power up from baby, and they were the same strength. Gt goku casually beat both of them.
@@MadderEmoLastly, no Goku was not gonna beat the infinite Zamasu. Vegito blue with his full power Final kamehameha couldn’t even destroy one Merge Zamasu. The only way the could’ve won was with Grand Zeno and Cabba does not Scale to that.
Everything you said is true, and this is why I hate the power scaling in super.
Cabba after doing a funny ritual with other 5 saiyans and getting his hair red: 🤫🧏♂️
I genuinely don’t understand this if character like 17 were able to keep up with ssbss goku before the top which should quote on quote be millions of times stronger then the goku that that faught beerus realistically 17 should at least be ssj2-3 lvl so why can’t ssj4 beat cabba it doesn’t make sense
infinite ki so he can train as long as he wants and their still half human so they can still get stronger.
17 went on a offscreen training that make him a lot more powerful.
@@elcalabozodelandroide2 Yea, idk whats your point? lots of characters have done that
no such thing as "ssj2-3 level" since they are modifiers and not set power levels. Also #17 is a human genetically modified to be super human that also has cybernetic parts. Considering Mule was able to create Moscoe, a robot on the level of Gods of Destruction, this isn't even all that crazy.
@@ShoddragonI think his point is that when he can get that strong
Why do people say the gt characters are pathetic because it doesn't make sense
The humans and piccolo while not being full power blue level all still catch up enough to actually be able to viable in the tournament of power and they did it in under 48 hours
If that's the case then why do some people treat GT like it's getting shit stomped by super when it's that easy to catch up with gods
2:30
No, let’s be reasonable here. Just because he thinks it doesn’t make it so. Obviously he’s not reaching ssj blue levels of strength, that’s absurd
Im not saying he reached those blue levels exactly as that was a suppressed Vegeta, just that he thinks he grew strong enough to the point where he can one shot his U6 Tournament arc self
If i can ask,were do you get the scans for the chozenshuu? I can't find anywere to read even the raws
It’s better to remade Dragonball GT in orde to fix some power level difference. God Ki is the only power boost that will surpass GT Goku and Vegeta.
I honestly don’t care… my argument is that it’s literally goku and vegeta combined into one, in order to create a being stronger than them both so let’s say current goku and current vegeta fused and made ssj4 gogeta vs cabba who would win?
Wdym current goku and vegeta? Super Saiyan 4 doesn't exist in the Super canon.
@ he doesn’t even need super saiyan four anyways he would still win
@PCross-v6u Well yeah DBS Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Cabba. But GT Goku and Vegeta arent.
1)Super Saiyan 2 isn't a 1000x multiplier that's just wrong especially when every other source says otherwise.
2)On super baby 2 and SSJ3 it's referring to power as super baby 2 looks nothing like ssj3.And it just makes sense as he has 3 forms.Super baby (silver ssj), super baby 1(adter absorbing Saiyan energy) and super baby 2
3)SSJ4 isn't 10 times ssj3.Golden Ozaru is.Super baby 2 was 8x stronger than his SSJ and his ssj no diffed ssj3 Goku.When Goku turned into an Ozaru he scared baby sbd they were relative
SSJ4 is around 10,000 golden Ozaru as Baby had 1000x blutz waves needed to turn Ozaru stated in show wbd perfect files
3) Massively downplaying the power increase throughout GT ignoring the fact that
>base goku surpassed his own ssj at the beginning of the Series
>EOZ Goku was already kid buu level
>Rildo was stated to be the highest battle power they ever faced as well so it would be the strongest buu
>Baby absorbed rildos power, trunks overpowered him later on as aj infant which would mean even fodder like Goten would be stronger than rildo as shown
>base Goku beat two SSJs empowered by baby no effort
>Base Goku surpassed his own ssj4 in the shadow dragon saga as stated against Nuova Shenron
>Goku at least got a 10x increase in again syn Shenron
3) For the perfect file statement about Gogeta the "stand alone" ssj4 is vague but it most likely means SSJ4 Goku + SSJ4 Vegeta x Dozens of times=Base GT Gogeta
Why? because that's how fusion works in DBZ.Two fighters at they're strongest added together times 100s of times is base fusion.Also stated in show and Guides
Examples:
Gotenks - SSJ Goten snd Trunks are android 18 level while base Gotenks survived an encounter against fat buu and is ststed to be stronger than ssj2 Vegeta
Vegito - Goku and Vegeta in SSJ3 and SSJ2 had no chance against Buuhan while base Vegito no diffed him.Same thing happens in super with Vegito and zamasu in the Manga
Kefla - SSJ2 kefla and caulifla struggled against god Goku while base kefla stomped him
Gogeta - In super SSJ Gogeta could fight against ssj Broly while SSJB Goku and Vegeta couldn't with full power attacks
You get my point
4)GT has several uni- low multi feats and upscales the movies via hirudegarn but pale nothing in comparison to Bog feat but you downplayed Omega Shenrons universe busting
1st it was all a PASSIVE FEAT with no effort alone with aura alone compared to putting actual effort to attacks.2nd the over time argument is bs as area of effect=/=AP not to mention it was going to be a fast process as Kaioshin wanted to leave IMMEDIATELY as it'd effect them too.Also in an official Toei site black smoke Shenron is stated to destroy the universe
5)Even with all of that even if Cabba is a bit stronger as you said that's not the end all be all.Its only by a slight margin and Gogeta has attacks that push above his wiegh class (big bang Kamehameha,10x Kamehameha and dragon fist) the latter 2 can hurt and kill opponents multiple times stronger than them
Also Gogeta has a speed advantage
So Gogeta no to low diffs even by your logic
Ok so there are a LOT of problems with your arguments
1). The only thing guides say about SSJ2 is either that surpasses the previous 4 Grades or that it has double the power of super saiyan (doesn't specify which grade)
2) It lacks eyebrows and has longer hair, which is probably what the guide is referring to since guides also say the same stuff about Ultra Ego.
3) I didn't say it was only ten times I said it was AT LEAST ABOVE ten times,
4) Nothing suggests the greater amount of blutz waves amped him to that degree, all that's implied is that they are required to trigger the transformation
5)
1.Prove that
2. You can't prove uub at the end of Z was as strong as kid buu
3.Thats fine I said he was above kid buu who is the strongest buu
4. Baby took his power by going into his body theres nothing suggesting he would have kept that power after he left it, so you can't use trunks beating him to upscale him
5. Prove baby's mind control amped those SSJs
6. No you can't prove Goku was referring to the pre transformed nova shenron as we know Goku is capable of sensing the inner depths of someone's power, which makes more sense than him getting a random SSJ4 level amp out of nowhere
7.prove that again
6) It says stand "ALONE" idk why it would be talking about both Goku and vegeta together, not to mention this entry is talking about SSJ4 Gogeta in specific not BASE gogeta. WE know this because the guide describes his appearance in SSJ4 and its all next to an image of SSJ4 Gogeta, so there is no reason to assume it means base gogeta
Those examples you gave all involve either potara fusions, which are stated to be stronger than metamoran fusions, or are fusions contained within DBS, which is fine since I think the fusion multiplier increases as characters get stronger. Also the daizenshuu says that goten and trunks were equally matched with android 18 in base form and were already fighting evenly with her in base, so idk where youa re getting that she was on their level in super saiyan. Also I don't see how you could quantify gotenks surviving a battle with a suppressed playing around fat buu, you can't prove he was using above Majin Vegeta levels of power there.
7) The movies are stated by Toriyama to take place in a different dimensions so you can't use Movie 13 for feats.
You also have to prove omega shenron was going to do this passively and with no effort at all AND with his aura alone. Also idk why you are negating its area of effect since it being able to reach the kaioshin realm and the end of the universe is the reason why this feat is impressive at all, because without low multi area of effect it just wouldnt be able to destroy the universe. Shin wanting to leave is fine as it still doesn't imply instaneous destruction like with battle of gods, which was the point I was trying to make. Black smoke shenron being able to destroy the universe is also fine as destroying the living universe doesnt compare to destroying the macrocosum, not to mention I never said GT wasn't at that universal level anyway
8) Cabba also has attacks that can affect things above his paygrade via the galick gun, which in its intiial appearence in the saiyan saga was used by Vegeta to match KKx3 Goku who was stronger than him. Vegeta has only continued to master that move and Cabba can still produce a blast just as strong.
9) Prove he has a speed advantage
@@mrperfectcell5079
1) Fair but it doesn't really change the debate so ehh
2)Weak similarities but it could refer to both,it being as a multiplier doesn't contradict and fits
3)My bad
4)Yeah and 1000x amount of blutz waves (10x multiplier) would get to that degree.Either way 10x SSJ3 is death battle level downplay
5) for the 1st 4 points they can be covered in this scaling by broku72 th-cam.com/video/dc42FlKDVBQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=x-cBkfJ06xrKHQ9v
And for the #4 he absorbs energy of strangers to get stronger, that's how he evolved so fast and got so strong(as shown when he massacred and entire crew of passengers gaining their energy) similar to cell
5) It's basic sense?Baby's power + the vessels power I don't need to explain this
6) Because he literally was and didn't know he could transform,and a lot of things in dragon ball power wise are just absurd
7) Potara fusions are stronger but that's because for metamoran fusion strength is equalized for both partners while for potara it isn't and it still applies and it being from DBS doesn't exactly invalidate anything
Goku used his 10x Kamehameha on syn Shenron and he tanked it.He got powered up into FPSSJ4 by other Saiyans and is now equal simple really
I do agree fusion multipliers get stronger as characters do due to new forms(compare z to super Vegito)
For Goten and Trunks being equal to 18 in base haven't heard but I get it from thier fight against her in the tournament.Fat Buu was also playing around with Dabura,Vegeta and Gohan and 2/3 all died and Gohan nearly got killed
7)So is GT and it still tied to a few of the movies that being Dead zone (garlic Jr arc in original z anime) coolers revenge and wrath of the dragon due to wrath of the dragon
I don't believe movie feats change much just further upscale GT and make the macrocosm feat more valid
Finally I don't have to prove it just watch the show.He wasn't powering up,not going to charge an attack,etc in GT episode 63 all he was literally doing when everything was going to be destroyed was just spreading his negative energy around the world.Also I wasn't trying to negate it's area of effect,my bad on me
Just because it's not instantly in a second doesn't change the potency of the attack.A planet level attack that takes 5 minutes is still planet level
As for black smoke Shenron the problem is that universe in dragon ball get thrown interchangeably and could mean the living world itself or the macrocosm(as shown in DBS)The reason why I think macrocosm is due to the numerous uni and low multi feats up until that point and most likely as strong as Omega Shenron (cuz all 7 balls)
And when I meant "universal" I was referring to the macrocosm which again my bad
8)Correct but Gogeta still has stronger attacks by a LONG shot.SSJ4 Goku was 10x weaker than Omega and would've killed him if not for regeneration with dragon fist
X10 Kamehameha would be able to damage opponents 22x stronger (Kamehameha is 2.2x stronger shown in Saiyan Saga)
there's also 100x big bang Kamehameha which is game exclusive but I don't think it would be a stretch to say he could pull it off
9) Both DBGT and DBS are well into infinite speed, GT just scales higher into it and has more and better
DBS infinite speed would come from shockwave feat while for GT you have
>Base Goku and Pikkon moving across the afterlife in 90s z.GT is the sequel to this, while super is Kai which doesn't have it
>Kibito Shins Kai Kai affected by baby's revenge death ball
>Super 17 reacting and out speeding IT
I don't buy anything into immeasurable speed like moving into the future or sugoroko space as those just open up plot holes
@@mappingmapping95
1) It is definitely a weaker connection but official sources do say Ultra Ego is similar to SSJ3 for the same reason. so this definitely would be consistent. While it definitely could be the case that its a SSJ3 level amp the problem is that you can't exactly assert that it's what the guide is saying
2) No not exactly. All the blutz waves have been shown to do is activate the transformation and rejuvenate baby to full power, which seems odd if he was amped as the terminology used was "back to full power" implying great ape baby is just a normal great ape and not some super ultra giga amped great ape transformation. You still need to prove that the blutz waves actually amp his power and if so you would need to quantify by how much, because 1000x the bluzt waves wouldn't inherently mean 1000x the power
3) Ok so the only thing relevant in that broku video is that Goku, Uub, And vegeta cant go all out in the tournament implying they are all above Fat Buu, which is fine as in the anime Goku at the end of the buu saga could probably beat down good buu in base or normal SSJ, as WEAKENED BASE GOKU's Ki could be sensed on earth while he was in the kaioshin realm, which is a feat that Goku couldn't replicate at the start of the buu saga without SSJ3, so it doesnt exactly imply oob is equal to kid buu.
Baby can have that energy absorbtion ability, but he never did that to general Rildo, he just hijacked his body and left after Goku smoked him. Baby would also only amp the powers of the person he is infecting not the people he is mind controlling, even so you would need to prove by how much because SSJ Goten And SSJ Gohan normally might even be weaker than buu saga goku
Him not knowing about the transformation doesn't mean he still can't sense his transformed power, its also not really a transformation as he is just shedding his outer shell like how Boros wears armor to suppress himself, so I don't see why he wouldnrt able to sense his FP. Also while dragon ball can have insane power jumps its usually due to things like limit breaking, post fusion amps, or getting amps from other people which didnt happen here
4) No its directly stated the potarra ITSELF grants greater power and effect than the fusion dance, which is made evident when Vegito is called stronger than a metamoran fusion despite the fact that goku and vegeta are relative in base form. Not to mention that if the multipliers were the same than fusion and potara would have an equal amp when they are utilized, which would contradict it being stronger
Goku was stated to be at half power after getting blinded and got beat down by Omega Shenron on top of that so he was nowhere near full power, there's also no reason to believe he would keep the amp he got from the other saiyans
Fat Buu suppresses himself to varying degrees as Vegeta was stated to be stronger than the Fat Buu he initially fought despite that buu being stated to ahve powered up even more than when he fought dabura and gohan, so you cannot really prove he was using above majin vegeta levels on gotenks ESPECIALLY since daizenshuu says that Majin Vegeta was stronger than even SSJ Gotenks before he entered the time chamber
5) no the movies are stated to take place in a different dimensions than the ANIME which GT is canon to, so those events just wouldnt cross over, can you also show that wrath of the dragons is for sure canon to GT (the dragon fist doesnt entail it being canon)
I hope you realize that going off of this scene might actuallt entail the universe was gonna be destroyed via a chain reaction through the negative energy spreading and infecting more and more planets, which means omega might not scale to it, there's also nothing in the scene implying he was gonna do it passively or through powering up just that he was gonna utilize the negative energy to lay waste to the universe.
It actually does as someone could say destroying a finite universe over time might only require multi galaxy levels of power, it honestly depends on the context of the scene
that term can be used for the macrocosum in total, but there's nothing implying here what exactly its talking about, and there's honestly no feats prior to this which i would scale to low multi
6) All of that is fine he can have those attacks, but my main concern is that Cabba hs attacks that can one shot him as well, he is also faster (as its stated more power correlates to more speed) so he would have a greater chance of actually landing those blasts
7) DBS has infinite speed scaling due to Buu being able to destroy the universe which is stated to be infinite and Cabba scales more over buu than Gogeta, which is why he would be faster
>that feat is actually in Kai as Kai shows a montage of the otherworld saga meaning all of those feats are actually canon and apply to DBS
>Baby did that via affecting the realm kibito kai uses to travel when he uses his kai kai technique, not through his speed, which is fine as there's nothing actually suggesting that the time it takes for kibito kai to travel through this realm to be infinite or inaccessible. What Baby did was essentially like if you were playing minecraft and somehow damaged someone as they were traveling through the nether with to goal of faster travel in the overworld, its more so a power feat than a speed feat
>17 was stated to be predicting where Goku would appear and was tracking him the instant he materialized, he wasn't outspeeding the move itself
You missed Super 17 Saga amp were Base Gohan's Kamehameha was thought to have killed Super 17 despite Majuub's punches not working. Anyways debating them is pointless when they watch it with the sole intend to downplay GT while accepting stuff from Super which is later debunked by show itself.
As for Baby thing, he tells it to Trunks that everyone he took over becomes his energy, when Trunks asks about it.
Oh, you got it wrong did you forget one thing all of the movie canon GT Vegeta no Fusion dance so yeah and he’s the one who suggested the Fuison dance gogeta solos
no such thing as a unified movie timeline, also Vegeta admits while inside Buu that he saw the fusion dance from the afterlife.
@ actually the cooler movie appear in GT yeah you actually dead
@@Shoddragonsorry incorrect
There isn't a unified movie timeline but certain events are implied to have happened in GT possibly just in a different way and no this does not mean that the feats from the movies don't apply as they are still the same characters
Vegeta knew what fusion was
He did not know how to do it
Vegeta perfectly pulling it off implies him and Goku have done it before and
Goku also implies he finds it funny that Vegeta is the one offering to fuse implying they have before as well
And while you could argue maybe something happened between end of z and GT
More then likely not and is less probable then some of the movies taking place in GT
The Z anime also took one of the movies from z and made them canon in the show for an entire filler arc, GT is the continuation of that anime
So it stands to reason that movies can have happened in this universe
Cooler and Garlic Jr are probably canon, but you can't prove any other movies are as @shoddragon pointed out Vegeta already knew of the dance
@mrperfectcell5079 he knew of the dance but didn't know how to execute it as he had never done it presumably but does it perfectly in GT
So either
GT has its own version of fusion reborn that altered the story points
A threat occured in the time of peace or there was some unshown event somewhere in the GT timeline
Or the devs just overlooked it and said why not although them mentioning fusing before could be related to vegito although it's probably intended to be the dance
Because it's showing how far vegeta has come
In the buu arc Vegeta barely took the earrings *and in fusion reborn he argued about doing the dance*
But in GT he is 100% willing to throw away his pride *because he has matured and grown as a person* to save the earth and those he cares for
Cabba black vs ss4 gogeta
Wrong dragon ball is going back to skill/hax can equalise against raw power!!!
What about how Goku fended off both of his sons and base form this Gohan has been training on and off since the buu and Gohan in super train for one day and surpassed super Saiyan God Goku
TBF Kid Buu was already drastically above Gohan and Goten, and Goku was already far stronger than kid buu at the start of GT, so I dont think that can be used to upscale Goku anymore than I already was.
@ even though they wasn’t stronger than kid buu at the end of Dragon Ball Z years later they could’ve trained which Gohan did and based off of supers multiplier for Gohan Gohan should be incredibly strong and GT even if we don’t use that super multiplier, we know Gohan can get incredibly strong and short time probably not in a day, but give them two years of training, he will be able to surpass even his father
@ it’s crazy how a lot of people lowball dragon Ball GT when bass Goku, in the first arc was already above kid buu he literally trained with the reincarnation of kid buu for several years. Who was stated to be the strongest opponent for Goku and he trained with him in his base form.
Ssj4 gogeta has inf speed and stopped a universal attack with a kick. and and tanked something similar to hakai. goku ssj4 got a 4M Times multiplyer and ssj4 is a limit breaker so it forces him to grow to use his max power and potential.
Nah
Also your argument of base Goku and Vegeta being blue Vegito level is god awful wank
That's like saying if Mike Tyson punched me in the face or I got shot in the face and survived I'm street level.Barely surviving an attack isn't the same as tanking and enduring it not ti mention Goku and Vegeta are clearly injured
Also while Cabba forced Frieza to go golden that doesn't put him at Golden Frieza level, only slightly above base Frieza
Frieza only has 2 forms his buff and golden form (an SSJB level increase) nothing in between so doing that was overkill
+Look at it like this,If I'm being attacked by someone or a dog and I'm forced to pull out a gun: Does that make the person I'm against gun level?No
TOP Cabba would be a good 10+ times stronger than his U6 self as blue Goku fought a stronger hit without kaioken
1. That's completely disanalagous as Goku and Vegeta just did tank the attack, they are shown to still be conscious and still had enough energy to amp trunks and assist in the battle with infiinite zamasu. If Goku and Vegeta were like 100x weaker than zamasu they would have just died, so all those examples you gave just dont apply and were a strawman.
2. I didn't say he was golden frieza level it was just to scale him to or above BASE Frieza, which you agreed to here
When Vegeta said that Cabba was equal to him, he was just referring to the suppressed level of power he was using at the time.
The TOP makes it explicitly clear that Cabba is nowhere near base Vegeta, as base Vegeta one shots Mona with a ki blast, while Super Saiyan Cabba was gotten dogwalked by her.
Final Form Freiza also demolished Cabba with ease, and a weakened base Goku could clash fists and knock around Super Saiyan Caulifla, who scales above Cabba.
Caulifla's performance against opponents like Napapa also prove Cabba is nowhere near Battle of Gods levels of strength, as she had to put in a lot of power and effort to overpower him.
Napapa was shown to struggle against Basil's attacks, and Basil as shown to be an ant compared to Fat Buu in the Zen Exhibition matches.
Cabba is within the Buu Saga tiers of power at best, meaning he gets no diffed by SSJ4 Gogeta.
Have you considered that vegeta gets stronger between the u6 arc and the tournament of power???? He literally went from being pressed by base black to dogwalking rose black in 6 months, comparing u6 base vegeta to ToP base vegeta is ridiculous
Frieza also managed to catch up to goku somehow, while doing image training and i dont think i need to mention the fact that goku ALSO got vastly stronger between the u6 and ToP arcs given how he got bullied by kale while in blue then proceeded to clash somewhat relatively with kefla like… literally 15 minutes later
TLDR; everyone you mentioned is way beyond BoG god goku level 😭😭😭
@gorillaman67 no
@@ItsB1998 then congrats!! Youre wrong and youre aware of it
@@gorillaman67 Nah I actually had more to say. That was just a test message I forgot to delete. I've been having issues receiving and sending messages lately, so thanks for responding and confirming TH-cam didn't block me or something.
But anyway what I actually wanted to say is that Cabba Also grew in strength, and He actually would be stronger than Vegeta if he was Super Saiyan God level without any angel training..so my point still stands.
@@ItsB1998 you do realise by whis own admission, he literally says that goku and vegeta sparring is equal if not better than his own methods of training?
I dont see how starting at a power would make you grow faster unless otherwise stated, and correct me if im wrong, but cabba wasnt in any life threatening battles leading up to the ToP, nevermind compared to goku and vegeta literally fighting for their lives constantly in the goku black arc and eclipsing their past powers (furthermore it is a pretty big plot point of the saiyans that they grow vastly during heated battles, just watch vegetas speech to belmod)
Like you have to realise that dbs scaling is so absurd that BoG god gokus level of power becomes irrelevant incredibly fast as the series progresses
Bullsh*t. base GT Goku would destroy Cabba or any character in Super, let alone GT Gogeta. GT characters easily speed blitz super characters due to anime base Buu saga Goku’s infinite speed calculation in the afterlife. Super doesn’t have this calculation because the anime isn’t canon to Super. Also since Goku has fought every version of Buu except for Evil Buu, when he says Rildo is stronger than Buu, you can assume he’s talking about the strongest version. It doesn’t matter whether you think Super Buu Gohan absorbed or Kid Buu is stronger because the anime puts at least one of them at universal level being Gohan absorbed Super Buu.
It is stated by toriyama that super completely canon every z anime that happened ,unlike gt which is not confirmed.Watch chuck video of monarch vs db .He literally shown the statement .Super feats are far more concrete compare to gt.
@ no, super is not canon to the z anime because if it was, we wouldn’t see mecha frieza in hell in super because the frieza in hell in z was just his regular form. that would be a huge continuity error if they were part of the same canon. super only uses events from the manga as its canon.
So I just wanna point out that the afterlife saga did actually happen in Kai, we are actually shown a montage of those events happening meaning the feat would apply to super (as Kai is canon to super), but kid buu and all other forms of buu were still stated to be a threat to the entire universe which is infinite in size so he would have Infinite speed regardless.
I also already said in the video I think Rildo is stronger than Kid Buu, so that scaling is fine
@ explain the Frieza inconsistency then. he’s regular Frieza in z while he’s Mecha Frieza in super. it doesn’t make sense if super follows the anime including kai. It only makes sense if it is only a continuation of the manga and nothing else.
@@mrperfectcell5079youre missing out on fee key notes in video. Buuhan already had universal destroying feats.
He was gonna destroy barrier that holds outer dimensions and that would need similar AP amd would scale buuhan.
And End of Z goku is stated to be stronger than anyone in Z anime and manga. GT goku already surpass anyone in Z even before meta rildo is here.
Baby vegeta was able to warp kaikai realm. Kabito kai and goku gt were in kaikai. Which is instant btw and yet baby vegeta was able to affect a rralm that had no space or time and yet transcended tye other dimensions.
GT goku also has movies feats as we see cooler in super 17 saga. In second cooler movie goku showed immeasurable speed feats as he was fighting while there was not time existing.
And even if ignore the GT feats and just use nultipliers. Buuha has same feat in anime of destroyjng universe 7.
Base GT actually will destroy cabba tbh. Conaidering how much atringer base gt goku gets in all sagas. Just baby vegeta saga alone he was thousands of times stronger than his bkack star saga counterpart.
Personally cabba dont go past base gt goku in baby vegeta saga.
1. Super Saiyan 4 at the bare minimum is a 100 times increase from Super Saiyan 3 since Super Baby 2 was somewhat comparable in strength to a Golden Oozaru Goku, and SSJ4 Goku was comparable in strength to a Golden Oozaru Baby means that SSJ4 has 10 times more power than the Oozaru form thus making it a 100 times increase from SSJ3 or 40,000 to 800,000 times increase from base (depending on how strong you think the Mastered SSJ form is).
2. I recommend you watch Broku's video called "Does Cabba Really Beat Gogeta" in order to understand.
th-cam.com/video/vvsYqfn-i0o/w-d-xo.htmlsi=-zv4ut5hicEV_i3a
The only issue I have is that this would rely on golden oozaru being 10x ssj3 when it could easily also be 10x ssj1
@@mrperfectcell5079 you have no reason to assume Golden Oozaru Is 10 x whatever form It Is in though
@mrperfectcell5079
the problem with that is the fact that Baby Vegeta was already somewhat stronger than a SSJ3 Goku when they fought, and that was before Baby absorbed the powers of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bra which allowed him to transform into Super Baby 1.
@@simeon8814 that would just mean you can’t make a definitive claim on it which is fine since I didn’t make a claim on it
@ I mean if ssj4 is above his then the form would just make no sense to be only be 10x ssj3 as god is a lot stronger then that me wing either golden oozaru is stringer then that or ssj4 is a massive amp on top or oozarue
Even tho i know gogeta is strong im keeping this agenda up, its just to funny
These comments are making me realize one thing
This is getting really dumb
Deleted my latest comment because I found someone else commenting exactly what I wanted to say. Let us not be redundant here.
Thats why i read the manga
The dragon ball fandom being a fucking kindergarden again and you know what dbl the mobile game has a better story than super even shallot and cabba master and student thing is better than the vegeta and cabba one
Nah we literally talking about the last transformation for all saiyans against a random aah bum that just came, no way Cabba would win or survive a single blow. Power Scalling sometimes sound wierd as hell (nice video)
Well, he was taking about Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta fighting ToP Super Saiyan 2 Cabba, rather than the dog-shit argument most people try to use that Base form Cabba is somehow more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. SS2 Cabba can beat SS4 Gogeta, but there will still be a fight, Base Cabba gets atrociously stomped by SS4 Gogeta.
SSJ4 being the final transformation in GT has no relevance on whether a ssj4 from GT could beat Cabba lmao.
@@Shoddragon Cabba’s not strong enough to beat SS4 Gogeta while in his base form or just using Super Saiyan. Even with SS2, Cabba is only slightly stronger than SS4 Gogeta.
Reminder that omega shenron was merely STANDING STILL and his passive aura was going to destroy the entire universe and other world,remember the supreme Kai wanted to LEAVE asap,so this would going to happen pretty fast
3 Punches was going to annihilate 3 Infinite sized timespace continuums.
Goku absorbs that power in his base…… (regarding the anime)
Literally BOG Anime Goku in base would be a serious problem to Omega Shenron….
Goku gets stronger than this by the time of the U6 Tournament. Cabba in base is equal to a Vegeta that surpassed god Goku one arc ago.
SSJ4 Gogeta gets pimp slapped
@@antiwave5294Out of context:the 3rd Clash was longer and had more shockwaves than the previous 2 and didn't destroy the universe despite a Clash of hakai and Kamehameha
2:Goku doesn't scale to the shockwaves as he was sent flying by them and they were getting stronger the farther, which Is the opposite of inverse square law, it's clear that the Macrocosm feat Is out of context and Goku doesn't scale to it
@ The 3rd Attack was going to Destroy the Macrocasm.
Goku canceled out the attack and it was nullified. Even if he was 1/3rd of the attack power he would absorb the same power in his base then go SSJ on top of it. Then surpass that several times over in subsequent arcs .
Tf you mean he was sent flying by the shockwaves? What was the 3 punch shit in the anime then?
The 3 punch showed a line between Beerus and Gokus Fist to show that the universe destroying punch was nullified . (In the anime)
Are we watching the same show? What do you mean out of context ? So the narrator, Whis, Old Kai and Shin are wrong?
Bro go rewatch the anime. It’s not that hard
@antiwave5294 yet It didn't destroy the macrocosm despite It being longer and more violent
He Simply canceled It out due to hitting with an equal and opposite force, not due to being stronger than the shockwaves, the shockwaves sent Beerus and Goku Flying and got stronger the farther
Recheck episode 12, as soon as they Clash, Goku and Beerus were sent flying by the Clash, the shockwaves only kept getting stronger
They failed to portray them as universal as Elder Kai explained how they were nullified, not because Goku was stronger
Elder Kai said the shockwaves were getting stronger the farther they went despite they sent Goku and Beerus Flying while they barely started, let alone After they crossed the macrocosm
I agree that the shockwaves are that strong, I Simply don't think the anime says Goku scales to them
I watched episodes 12, 13 and 14 several times these days and nothing proves Goku scales to the shockwaves
@@simeon8814 The narrator, Elder Kai and Whis stated the universe would be annihilated.
Even if Goku was 1/3 of that power (3 punch) aka not scaling to the shockwaves he absorbed the power in his base then surpassed it in Super Sayian Dude.
Then gets literally infinitely stronger in future arcs.
In the Buu Saga he was already Galactic to Mult Galactic against Kid Buu
Them “failing” is simply Ki Control.
Please tell me this is a joke...
Vegeta took a full power blow from ssj cabba (+rage boost) and didn’t even flinch. So does he really equal to vegeta?
Cabba doesnt have ssj grade 4 like vegeta. Ssj grade 4 is bare minimum a 10x boost from base ssj
Characters who are equal to one another have been shown to take full power blows and not flinch & that logic is also flawed as characters weaker than them can still cause them harm. You’re better off arguing how much of a difference in strength cabba and gogeta has to see if gogeta can still hurt him as opposed to trying to downplay cabba and vegeta being equal in base
@@oro9307 Cabba might be strong, but against god essence vegeta? And he hasn’t ever achieved any type of power boost.
Great video!
I thought you were better
GT a Hero's legacy states that SSJ4 Goku is roughly equal to Base buu Saga Vegito.
Which heavily cliffs GT. With SSJ4 Gogeta basically being SSJ2 Vegito (Buu saga) at best. BoG Godku was far stronger than that.
you do realize that Vegitto is literally the sum of both Base Goku + Base Vegeta multiplied by at least 20. Meaning SS2 Vegetto is 20 times stronger than both SS2 Vegeta and SS2 Goku fighting together. I don't think I need to tell you that the multiplier for this equation is far, far bigger than SS3, being well close to the usual estimation for SSG.
You can do it yourself, SS2 was calculated to be at around a 100x multiplier, multiply that by 40x and you have SS2 Vegetto. What's important to know is that, this is the value of the normal SS4 Goku, which is when he unlocked this transformation. It's not at all comparable to what SS4 Goku has at the end of GT during his fight against Omega Shenron, before he grew even more powerful at the end of GT after absorbing all of the Dragon Balls.
You guys severely underestimate how strong GT Goku and Vegeta really are.
@@bloody4558 "you do realize that Vegitto is literally the sum of both Base Goku + Base Vegeta multiplied by at least 20."
No. He's equal to Goku x Vegeta, per the Super Exciting Guide directly telling us "Goku x Vegeta = Vegito!" Please do not make up saiyan Scholar tier headcanon.
God Goku was stronger than anything Goku could have imagined per his own words. That puts him above a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito.
DBGT A Hero's Legacy is the epilogue for GT, and clearly states Base Vegito in the buu saga >= SSJ4 Goku. As the epilogue this can be retroactively applied to the entirety of GT.
So
Base Cabba > U6 Base Vegeta > BoG Godku (Stronger than anything Goku could imagine + Fusing with vegeta wouldnt be enough statements) > SSJ2 Vegito (Buu Saga) >= SSJ4 Gogeta (Dozens of times stronger than SSJ4 Goku) > Base Vegito (Buu Saga) >= SSJ4 Goku (Hero's Legacy Statements)
Ya'll severely overestimate GT.
@@OverlyEpux stop right there, do you know that It referred to multipliers and gt Power ecliffed Vegito far before ssj4? Lmao
@@OverlyEpux also It mentions ssj Vegito before the whole "perhaps stronger than ssj4"
@@OverlyEpux Super exciting guide Is for the manga
You want to go over God>potara statements?
Gt hero's Legacy talked about It in terms of multipliers and also Sorry but gt eclipsed Vegito far before that, explicitly since episode 29 with Baby Vegeta, also no retroactive thing, UFP ssj4 wasn't a thing etc...
Cabba doesn't win, and i can prove it. Gt goku is end of dragon ball z goku, which toryama says hes the strongest thing hes made and cant think of any stronger meaning arale who manipulates time space and litteraly turns the page of her manga is weaker then end of z goku. So gt goku beats arale as a kid. Even better, the battle of gods movie happened in gts canon as well. Theirs a guidebook that states that the gsmes shows GT goku knows beerus. So in gt during the baby vegeta ark from memory GT goku was about to be put into a infinite dimensional area simular to the world of void thats in super for that saga. While ultra instinct shook the world of void, GT goku in base broke that dimention with one Kamehameha. Before people say it was already broken, it was the game inside that dimension that was breaking, not the dimension itself. Making it known that tournament of power ultra instinct goku gets beat by a base gt goku. No difference. Btw baby vegetas revenge death ball acts like a hakai, wrasing people from existence. Its so bad they dont even go to the other world because even their souls are gone and erased. With that being said, ssg4 gt goku tanked that same death ball. Meaning hes capable of tanking full concept erasure like Superman. Not only that, but the shadow shenron could have one tapped the universe but made the other shenrons instead. Omega shenron full power could destroy the entire macrocosm with full power, not even full power because him existing was doing that itself. Even worse, if the GTs universe forever expands, that means shenrons' auras were so powerful that it made the entire universe feel like it was imploding.
- Arale is a toonforce character and not directly comparable to Goku regardless. The whole "TORIYAMA SAID END OF Z GOKU IS LIKE THE STRONGEST PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE" was fucking ages ago and he never referenced Arale in it either, this was powerscalers making assumptions.
- None of the games are canon and no guidebook can suddenly make GT and Super canon to each other.
- There is no "infinite dimensional void", Goku got bounced into an area between dimensions and then escaped when he got his powers back by blasting a hole in it. Sugoro himself was able to reach this space with nothing more than a normal space ship, it's not some sort of "high dimension".
- Revenge Death ball doesn't have the properties of Hakai or anything remotely like it what? Literally just making things up.
- It wasn't "him existing", Omega Shenron was actively trying to corrode away the universe with his negative energy. Regardless this is nowhere close to BoG clash levels of AP.
@@Shoddragon wrong
When the boardgame that was so strong it could suppress gokus full power the same Goku that through some scaling can be implied to be stronger in base than kid buu who can be scaled in certain dialogue to be stronger than buuhan who was gonna destroy the universe through simply powering up
The board game suppressed that power
And when it destabilized its rules broke and Goku got his powers back but still would have been doomed to wander between dimensions forever if he had not blown it up
He blew up a infinite space that was in-between other dimensions that very likely could be the dragon balls macrocosm making it wrap around all of that
*But why was there still stuff after he blew it up?*
Well I'll tell you it's a choice by the animators
It's the same when Zeno blows up the entire future timeline
They go back and it should really be something we can't even interpret and neither can the writers
But instead they potray it as a white bluish looking space with energy still floating around
Despite there should be being nothing there is stuff there including the color white
It's simply how the animators potray it*
And also once again incorrect
You can simply argue that similar to Goku
The racoondog simply could have had a similar experience while flying his space ship that sent him through a dimensional rift to come across the suguroku space
Or he could simply be from another dimension all together, we know nothing of him or where he is from he could even be from one of the other 12 universes if you wanted to argue that
It's not that all unlikely also that a vehicle in the dragon ball universe can do unnatural or reality breaking crap like getting into suguroku space
There is a plane that can traverse the entirety of other world and get to heaven or hell
Space ships that can cross the entire universe in 6 days
Machines that can travel through time and make a new history
And a vehicle that can take angels and whoever else to another entirely different macrocosm *more than likely*
Even the Angels seem to struggle doing this travel so this implies the cube is a vehicle specially manufactured to do exactly as it does
While I can't think of any others there are probably other crazy ass vehicles that you can find in the dragon ball universe
And finally
Yes babys revenge death ball does work like hakai
Hakai erases you entirely to the point you simply do not exist
Baby states the death ball through its power of revenge or hate will completely destroy Goku every atom and molecule
He will never be able to be brought back again and also will cease to exist
Not even the soul from what baby is implying
Just like with hakai
This isn't the only time either while I can't think of them right now there are other types in energy in some dragon ball products that do something similar if not exactly what hakai does and if anyone can remember one please tell me
@@Shoddragon also wrong again by the way
Omega let his power corrode the universe however he likely didn't have to do it that way
His entire goal was to punish the universe for the misuse of the dragon balls he is also shown to be willing to prolong the suffering of the z fighters instead of just killing them
And letting the negative energy destroy earth despite being far capable of doing it himself
He wants to corrode the macrocosm with negative energy he dosent have too
It's his aura doing it alone
And if you take other feats from gt
This is not even the most he could do if he wanted to
But of course if we are trying to downplay things I could simply bring up that in the super manga zamasu says he's going to destroy the entire galaxy making him only Galaxy level even though you can simply argue he can do more but is just going to wipe out that galaxy outta annoyance
Or how it took beerus is 100% power to nullify the final shockwave between Goku and him and keep the universe from exploding
Or I could make it worse and argue that it took him and ssg Goku to do it and that it takes 2 destroyers to actually destroy a universe
Obviously that's not their intention
But I could argue that if I wanted to
This is how fiction works
Things are debated and people have different opinions on them
How strong something is , is in the eye of the viewer
There are some dragons that ball fans who think Goku in gt and super can only blow up a few planets
And some people who think gt Goku is 6D
And some people who think super Goku is a hyperversal god
Or how xeno Goku is 10D etc.
Some people think gt and buu saga are only Galaxy level or multi solar system level
And some people think friezas final form is barely strong enough to destroy planet namek despite him not using it in forever and clearly being in 1st form during planet Vegeta a planet 10x bigger than earth is destruction and in some showings he literally does it with 1 finger
Some people use a statement that is technically true if token literally that 2nd form Frieza could destroy the universe
It all depends on who you ask
Depends on who you ask and how you interpret
Cabba is lame slap any power level onto him and he is still lame
Gogeta Solos neg dif
Na
This Is taking things out of context
For One:Omega was going to destroy the universe Just by existing and not implied to be in a long period of time as episode 63 have Kibitoshin wanting to leave BEFORE IT STARTED
2:God Goku doesn't scale to the shockwaves
3:Goku got another ssj4 level Power up as he fought Prè transformation Nova Shenron in base. The Same Who Is above Rage Shenron Who took a times 10 Kamehameha from ssj4 Goku and sent It back
Also daizenshuu 10 says ssj3>Broly's Lssj form which Is over an ssj2 difference on top of ssj
God being above Vegito Is outright out of context and isn't even supported by the series
While you can debate about TOP Cabba vs Gogeta, the other Cabba from U6 tournament doesn't compare to Gogeta
Honestly Idk why yall Need to hype this Saiyan so much when Gogeta wins
1. He was gonna destroy it via speeding his negative energy throughout the universe. I don’t think kibitokai wanting to leave makes it an instantaneous feat just that it may not take like 1000 years or something
2.the shockwaves literally came from goku and beerus why wouldn’t they scale?
3.goku could have just been sensing a FP nova shenron or just gauging his strength which makes more sense than him getting a random amp out of nowhere
4. I gave scans as to why it would be the case
@@mrperfectcell50791:that Is irrelevant since he can condense that Power and other Powers together into attacks, 2:you think that, you don't leave a realm universes away instantly before It starts for nothing
2:Beerus and Goku were sent flying twice and the shockwaves kept getting stronger the farther they went, so why would they scale off the shockwaves After they travel the macrocosm despite they are sent flying by its starting point which Is far weaker?
3:Goku never mentioned Nova's transformation, he understood It later, also Characters do get amps out of nowhere in all series
4:you refer to the Vegito thing? Yeah, the Same Goku Who can't sense God ki, thus have no reference of Power, After king Kai tells him:he could kill you, says:even Vegito wouldn't work despite base Gogeta would be able to kill ssj3 Goku too
Also Kefla Is a Good example of Potara>Ssg, especially given the definition of potara amp in super
@ 1. Prove he can condense enough power to just one shot the universe and Kaioshin realm
2. No they weren’t lol and even if they were that can just be explained by the shockwave being both the power of Goku and beerus meaning at worst Goku would be half the power of the shockwaves
3. Just because he doesn’t mention it doesn’t mean he didn’t sense it or could still gauge it. Also show me characters getting random amps for literally no reason
4. Goku can guage the strength of characters without sensing their full power. Goku knew that dabura was on the level of perfect cell just from seeing him kill kibito. This is further supported by both ssg and beerus being stronger than what Goku thought. Base gogeta being able to kill Goku is entirely irrelevant as Goku could just be gushing beerus full power based upon what he’s felt and what he has seen from beerus and judging what his full power off of that in which Goku is super multiple times to be accurate when it comes to sensing the hidden depths of someone’s power despite them not showing it
4. Potara is an A x B multipliers so the boots would increase as characters get stronger
@mrperfectcell5079 1:because the negative Energy Is the Same and he also Used other Powers in the ball against Gogeta, not Just the negative Energy, recheck episode 60
2:yes they were, recheck episode 12, Goku and Beerus were sent flying by their Clash and the shockwaves kept getting stronger, it's not their Power because even assuming Goku Is half of the Clash, you would Need to argue the shockwaves got weaker or were as strong while Elder Kai stated the opposite, again, episode 12
3:yes he does Need to mention It otherwise you Just assume
4:yes he can gauge their strength BY FEELING THEIR KI AS WELL, Goku had no point of reference, no ki to sense, Just knew that Beerus could oneshot him, by this Logic, then Goku still failed unless you think he felt his full Power that surpasses even post black arc Goku, again, no ki=no reference and he was like:wow, he can kill me, so he Is above my fusion which can also kill me in base
4:no It isn't in the super anime, It Is more than the combined Power of the 2 fusees at their peak and then gets an infinite boost, episodes 65 and 114, both Kefla and Zamasu's descriptions match This
Also if It was Just A x B then Kefla in base would have dominated even Blue Goku
@mrperfectcell5079 also Idk about you but the Elder Kai and Kibitoshin directly said more than once that Kid Buu was a threat to the Kaioshin realm, you want to say Kid Buu>Omega Shenron?
Vegeta was simply training cabba not actually going serious, he showed cabba blue to keep cabba motivated to keep getting stronger after. While to compare omega shenron threatened the universe by just existing, standing not even doing an energy attack let alone the minus negative energy attack that gogeta not only easily kicked away but also purified it. I dont know why people thought ssj2 gohan beats cabba which is a blasphemous take considering supers scaling but i will definitely fight cabba beating ssj4 gogeta. Also z movies is canon to gt so that further buffs gt scaling. Another note is gt follows dragon ball z anime not the manga which further scales gt higher considering anime statements and feats in comparison to the manga
Super dragon ball heroes slams him
Definitely a fairer shake than what Lonk gave, but I'm gonna add some stuff to Gogeta's side of the argument. Whether you believe that its enough to put him above Cabba is up to you, I'm just throwing it out there regardless.
1: Goten directly states Baby is stronger than anyone they've faced up until now, meaning even Teen Baby should be above Kid Buu. As you believe Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and Goten was around to sense his power. If you argue that Baby was holding back on Goten and was actually stronger than SSJ Goten, that still puts Base GT Goten > Kid Buu as he was basing that comparison off a suppressed Baby.
2: Gohan in Base had to hold back on SSJ Baby Goten in order to not accidentally kill him, and Baby saga Base Goku > SSJ GT Gohan.
3: In the Shadow Dragon saga, Goku hoes from needing SSJ4 vs Rage and Naturon, to holding his own with Red Nuova who Goku states was stronger than both, while already tired and hungry from running the Shadow Dragon Gauntlet. That means Shadow Dragon saga Base Goku/Vegeta should be > SSJ4 S17 saga Goku.
4: the statement about Gogeta could just mean his version of SSJ4 is a higher multiplier than the normal SSJ4 one. I mean, you dont really say that SSJ Gotenks is stronger than a normal Super Saiyan, because what exactly counts as a normal Super Saiyan?
Once again, this might not even sway you to believe SSJ4 Gogeta beats Cabba, but that (alongside stuff you already brought up in this video) is why I at least do. Once again, fair shake,and great video.
@@jamainegardner4193 aside from the baby point, I agree with the rest
Goten said that After they fought Baby's goons but regardless, this baby Is above Metal Rildo, even base Rildo>Kid Buu
You forgot episode where Goku says Pan won't have trouble in division Majuub is participating in. And Goku doesn't correct anyone when they say Goku would undoubtedly win the tourney.
And Base Gohan's Kamehameha being expected to defeat Super 17 despite Majuub's punches not working. So essentially it would be Base Goku surpassing Majuub in Super 17 Arc. Broku even made a video suggesting his SSJ Goku's power would rival his previous SSJ4. Only problem being Mu is surprised after seeing SSJ4. But that could be because he got stronger rather than not being aware of the form.
@@simeon8814Actually it is Base Rildo who was absorbed by Baby.
@@ragnarok7452 base Rildo Is above Kid Buu though?
@@simeon8814 Yes.
Crapbba is lame and horribly concieved with a terrible design and painfully generic personality, I like Gogeta more so he wins.
Gogeta does win regardless of how he looks. There are some glaring issues in this TH-camrs logic stemming from a misunderstanding on howpowerful Cabba really is.
1. Goku only absorbed God to base in the BoG movie, this did not happen in the Super anime. Instead, In the anime Goku gained a new separate pool of God Ki. That ki does not interact with his power at base, and the same applies to Vegeta, so when Vegetta fights with Cabba at base, Cabba is not scaling up to SSG Vegeta, he is scaling up to base Vegeta using human Ki. meaning, Base Cabba is still around Majin Buu level, NOT SSG level. This only scales him up to Base Goku in GT.
I don't even need to correct the other inconsistencies in his arguments. Since this already puts SS4 Gogeta way above Cabba. Just know that there isn't that much difference between BoG arc Goku and ToP Goku, they are not 1000x apart in multiplier. Instead, there isn't much difference in power between arcs in Super, reason being Goku and Vegeta would only learn to use the SSB for real after the Goku Black arc. The manga elaborates this better, SSB has a ki leak issue. When Goku and Vegeta first leaned this form against G.Freeza, they hadn't had any control whatsoever over it. They would waste away a lot of Ki because the form causes a great strain over their bodies.
Only in against Fused Zamasu, did Goku finally learned how to keep the Ki from leaking out, allowing for this form to be properly useable. Back then SSG was actually stronger than Blue because it's a form that is as stable as the classic Super Saiyan. In fact Goku managed to hold his own against Fused Zamasu for quite long in his SSG form, he'd only use SSB for one attack and then immediately return and stay in SSG until he decided to attack again. THis lasted until Fused Zamasu used the Rosé form. THen Goku was forced to finally master the SSB form.
In the Manga, Mastered Super Saiyan Blue is actually stronger than Super Saiyan Rosé. Or at least, that's what we know. It may well be that Zamasu hadn't mastered Rosé either. So as you can see there was literally no real increase in power between these arcs, what we had was Goku and Vegeta finally getting used to their powers.
What a stupid cope mechanism
You forgot to put "GT Gogeta" to separate them from Z and Super Gogeta since GT Gogeta is a disgrace to their legacies
SS4 Gogeta would have beaten the brakes off of Beerus in BoG, but that's irrelevant since he is still vastly weaker than Cabba because it is Dragon Ball Super, a show where Goku went from Kid Buu's level to universe buster in the span of an hour and a half. It was never going to work for him 💀
This video is a joke.SSJ4 Gogeta is somewhere around the level of SSJB Gogeta as shown in fighterz and sdbh.
Is bro actually tryna use games to scale oml
Neither of those are canon to Super nor GT.
@jpfan4life812 what are you on about Buddy? Is ssj4 Gogeta canon? Canon or non canon is a literal excuse. Real db fans don't care about that stuff besides Akira toriyama himself said GT takes place in an alternate timeline/universe.
@@myusername3689 how would you try to scale them?Your mathematics?pffft save it.
Fighterz isn't canon and Heroes is basically officially licensed fan fiction made to sell toys and get people playing the Heroes game.
let's be honnest, Cabba being stronger than SSJG Goku doesn't make the least sense, or make it so that the powerscaling from Super is bure dogwater
Gogeta has unlimited ki and is a saiyan at his absolute prime, has god ki, and scales higher much higher if you include movies and add all Goku gt and vegeta gt feats
God Ki doesn't exist in GT.
Nah disagree the downplay for gogeta is insane also gogeta ssj4 was litrally holding back on omega shenron and was going to kill with just one finger also ssj4 gogeta multiplier and how strong goku got between arcs is far higher than u made him out to be ssj4 goku is not jusg 10x ssj3 as baby vegeta is golden great ape going ssj anplified by 1000 blutzwaves also omega shenron was threatening the entire macrocosm by just existing a greater feat than ssj god clash with beerus also why not take into account the z movies as theu are canon to gt also baby vegeta 1 litrally said he has the greated saiyan power upscaling him above ssjvegito from z as he would vegetas memories with him being fused with vegito
1) He was holding back but Gogeta at most was ten times the power of Omega Shenron, as Omega shenron was confirmed 10x above Syn shenron who was equal or stronger than SSJ4 Goku, while Gogeta was at most 100 times stronger than SSJ4 Goku.
2) There's nothing to suggest the greater amount of blutz waves actually made his form any stronger
3) SSG Goku was also threatening the macrocosum and was gonna destroy it in an instant unlike Omega Shenron
4) The only movies that are possibly canon to GT are the first Cooler movie and Garlic Jr
5) That scaling is perfectly fine, Super Baby 1 can be that strong I never had any issue with that at all
@mrperfectcell5079 yeah but forgot to mention z movie feat should be taken into account also end of z goku was stated to be the strongest in his verse and that no one can beat him in guides which means he is even above arale has performed some insane fictional transcendence feats as arale is canon to dragon ball proven how she helped goku in og dragon ball against red ribbon and it was toriyama intended for her to be canon to dragon ball and no just a crossover character also base goku to scales fusion reborn goku who just by turning into ssj3 was shaking the afterlife and base goku could perform that feat in base form when he fought cell and frieza also he would have immeasurable speed up scaling goku and metal cooler fighting inside the instant transmission dimensions which transcends time and goku was doing that in base back in z movie timeline against metal cooler also the multiplier of ssj4 is much greater than u give it credit it for chuck did a video long time ago how insane the multiplier is above base goku as ssj4 increase in power was comparable to a fusion amp of ssj vegito he had transformed in it back in z in guides also goku than became full power ssj4 in the baby arc also wrong about canon as gt has the dragon first which he used in wrath of the dragon and the fusion technique which vegeta and goku already knew how to do and said they used it before given the only time they used it back in z was in fusion reborn
@@mrperfectcell5079 also omega shenron did that feat of threatening the universe just by existing bro wasn't using power to do that feat his own existence was so powerful it was going to destroy the entire macrocosm a higher feat than just clashing fists in my opinion as that required power to do so and supreme kai even said that they had to quickly leave the supreme kai realm or nothing would have survived in the macrocosm meaning its actually faster than u give it credit for
@@mrperfectcell5079 edit also u can argue even base goku in gt is above buuhan and kid buu as both of theme are relative to each other and u can say which one is stronger but it doesn't matter since general grildo was stronger than buu who goku beat in just ssj and u can even argue goku being relative to ssj vegito in base considering how much stronger grilod is that buuhan or kid buu doesn't matter and also baby vegito with his negative ball was affecting the dimension that supreme kai use and goku use for instant transmission when supreme kai used kai kai to save to goku from baby vegito and goku was lost in another dimension and proceeds to one shot it in base
@@JadoBouhzam no he was going to do it by spreading his negative energy throughout the universe allowing it to infect and pollute other worlds. If anything it’s implied he was gonna do it via a chain reaction which negates the feat completely which still doesn’t compare to battle of gods
Also shin wanting to leave doesn’t imply instantaneous destruction
Ssj4 vegito was stronger than vegito blue, so I don't think so.
That shit isn’t canon what are you talking about 💀💀💀
1. Heroes isn't canon.
2. No he isn't, Vegito Blue was the one who beat LBSSJ4 Broly.
Heros isn't canon and even if it was Xeno and CC Goku and Vegeta are not the same characters as GT and Super goku and Vegeta.
😂
Ssj4 breaks limits, it doesn’t have a booster
Gt Goku Base Form alone can Defeate Cabba and if you want to low ball him then Super saiyan to defeat Cabba and MrPerfectCell Omega just Existing was Destroying the Universe he wasn't trying to if he was it would have been Destroyed unlike BOG Goku who needed to Clash with Beerus to Achieve that Feat Omega feat is clearly better Edit: Watch the Show are actually Scale Gt before saying Nonsense
Agree
People don't understand