You have to love how these shows are structured. It's kinda like sitting down for a conversation with people who are actually informed about cars instead of watching some glorified advertisement for a car.
@@dragospahontu Sometimes the drag races between Yanni and Mat are fun to watch. The cars they drag race are nice too. Doesn't compare to Sandler and Hyphen though
I think this was a spectacular articulation. Speed vs Experience, thats why the slowest sports car available new (Miata) is so popular. Being fast is not a lasting status, being fun is forever.
When Derek was talking about cars having a replacment that completely changed and lost credit, I immediately started looking at prices on the last generation of V8 Vantage...
The 2017 V12 vantage will be one to watch in another 7 or 8 years, you can get them with a manual and it will probably be the last manual V12 car ever built (with the exception of Gordan Murrays T.50). Also they are beautiful.
I'll be working my ass off after I get my degree to buy a V12 Vantage. And honestly, if you have the means to buy a DBS with a manual gearbox do that (or buy both, if you can) because they're gonna shoot up in value once people realize what they are and how cheap those V12s are to maintain. Probably the best V12 out there maintenance-wise, since they are very reliable and parts aren't that expensive.
That Z8 vs SL55 comparison really made me laugh because I was selling Mercedes Benz in 2002 when the 2003 MB SL55 came out and we also had a BMW and Audi franchise as well ....long story short is that we had a ridiculous waiting lists for the SL55 and we actually sold our first one for $25k over MSRP (roughly $150k after markup) and continued to sell them between $10-15k over (unless they were a local previous customer, then MSRP) meanwhile our BMW store down the street had a silver Alpina Z8 (admittedly the less desirable Z8 nowadays but at that point in time it was actually probably the more desirable one because it was a 1 year only model and not every buyer was an enthusiast) and the Z8 was nailed to the showroom floor for like 5-6months and if I remember correctly it was like a $138k MSRP car. To this day every single time I see an SL55 I find it hillarious to think that literally almost none of them are even worth as much as the markup over MSRP that we were charging back in the day...... and that Alpina Z8 that they would have begged you to take off their hands is at worst case still the same price as it was 17-18 years ago 😂🤦🏻♂️
EDIT** just looked up Alpina Z8’s and uh.... I think it’s safe to say I was way off in my values, an Alpina Z8 in a bushel basket or at the bottom of a lake is about the only way you’d get one for MSRP. Looks like you’d have to add about $100k on top of that original MSRP to own any Alpina Z8 😬
Well, that is pretty much down to production numbers. The Alpina Z8 is a rare car, whereas the SL55 sold in relatively big numbers. The SL 55 is also a better car in every way, especially the later 07-08 performance pack cars. AMGs of this era like the SL55 are undervalued for the amount of car you get.
I’m so glad I don’t live in USA when it comes to many things (don’t get me wrong I also like something’s!), especially the weird car selling practices there, in Europe the dealer is legally only able to sell you a new car for the MSRP, not a euro or pound more!! And we order luxury cars to the spec we want mostly, not some half assed shit spec a dealer thinks is great because they’ve got it in stock... if you’re buying a new car, spec it the way you want it and wait a little bit and do a factory collection if you actually like/love cars🤷♂️😂 having worked in the U.K. high end motor trade all my life, I’d never advise anyone to buy a “new” car off the lot unless it’s heavily discounted, you’d have to be mental to let a dealer make money from your own impatience of wanting something straight away!😂 (oh in Europe dealers can charge market values for used cars, so cars like GT3’s 911R’s that always increase over new MRSP’s go up as used, not new... new you pay MSRP! you have to register with your local dealer to get one as new though like all special Porsche models.... often go to “good” customers, often car flipping assholes (although Porsche are working on that, to stop car flipping as it’s ruining what the cars are meant for... driving them!)
They might be incredibly increasing in price, and while i think the Z8 was one of the best looking BMW's ever... If you think about it, which car brought more joy for the money to the people who bought them? The Z8 was know from the beginning to be a very limited number, so my guess would be only a fraction of the owners actually use(d) them for what they were built. While almost all SL's of that era got used by their owners.
17:00 Ford has made more than 1,000 of the current generation GT, and they are valued at more than 1 million. However once more of the cars get to the point where the original owners can legally sell them I think their values will drop significantly
The first allocations recently passed the 2 year sale embargo. Sale prices were still considerably higher than MSRP but typically not the 7 figures that everyone was sure to happen. With every passing year, more and more of these cars will flood the market. I don't think they'll ever trade at a loss for the seller, but I'm sure there will be a lot of disappointed people hoping for a 2-3x MSRP windfall. Rarity will soon be the only thing bolstering the prices. Personally, I don't think it's aesthetically pleasing and the tech/performance will be outdated long before the end of the production run.
When the original e30 M3 and Porsche Roadster were new in late 80's, dealers could not give them away. Literally. The last m3's left the dealerships after sitting 18 months thanks to a $7500 incentive, making the OTD price close to $25,000 with dealer discounting.
I feel there are some key factors as to how a car can become collectable: 1)Rarity and Exclusivity 2) Manual Transmission 3) NA if it's a sports/supercar 4)Having a few Analogue touches 5)Really good driving Experience 6) Untouched Cars especially the ones which are prone to be modded such a Nissan S13 where they fetch way more money stock as to a modded one
A common issue with Aston single clutches from 10-15 years ago is people drove them like automatics and burnt the clutches out. This led to them getting an unfair reputation of wearing out quickly. Also, this is the first episode that I’ve watched and this show is spectacular. Great work!
One of the cars that were desirable when I was in my first years of studying architecture, ended up in my garage. As a growing designer, I was shocked with the new then 3200 GT, which was a totally different thing than the biturbo based cars of the past. 20 years later and I bought a 4200, a pretty similar car to the 3200. The desires of our youth become the rewards of our "maturity", I guess. ( low prices due to trans bad rep reinforced my choice, I have to admit)
I'd say anything I used to pine for when I was a kid but couldn't afford at the time (with all the associated memories of the period) that over the years has come within my reach and the reach all the my peers will be valuable one day.
I think sometimes when some cars shoot up in value, the "cheap alternatives" or the cars that are from the same era but were unappreciated can go up too when people look for alternatives to a car they can no longer afford. The air-cooled 911s suddenly shot through the moon in value, and now versions of the 928 are starting to go up in value.
I agree. I think this is happening to 996s too. Some of the burn-the-fried-egg-with-fire people are turning into look-how-much-911-experience-you-can-get-for-the-money people. I'm one of them.
i put rally tires on a 90s manual v6 camry a decade ago, chopped the exhaust off of it and drove it like i hated it around a farm. it was dirt cheap, took abusive driving in its stride and was surprisingly fun to bounce off of trees and though the mud.
How did you not know the 996 values would plummet? Everyone ragged on it for the fried egg headlights and the lose of an air-cooled engine. The die-hards thought it was almost as much as sacrilege as the Cayenne.
Jason is so right about old gold camrys. I used to park cars at a Toyota/Ford dealer and of all the stuff I drove, those old camrys always stood out. Super comfortable and nice to drive cars.
We can laugh at the Nissan Murano now, but nobody saw the really old Ford Broncos and Mitsubishi Delica's being so valuable nowadays. Sometimes, you just never know.
People will buy the thing they wanted in high school, whatever that is. That's why the Radwood thing is happening now. Car guys in their 40s are buying the stuff they had or wanted when they were 15. "____ era will never be cool" will turn out to be wrong when that era turns 25 to 35 years old.
Would you have predicted the VW Bus going up in value as much as it has in the last 15 years? 20 years ago, I would have never thought we'd see solid 6 figures for a crappy old VW Bus.
JasonCammisa this should cheer you up.... from a fellow idiot that spends way more on one of my cars than I ever should have!🤦🏼♂️ see at least even your seat is going up in value if you sell it in Europe!!!😂 www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324202707534
tbh I think the Viper will hit at least six digits someday. cause it is the last car that WILL kill you if you aren't careful. so A, that means there will be very few of them left on the road, and B, its kinda the last of an Era
Just finished watching the 2019 Miata discussion. Elated to find a new episode (I love Wednesdays!). My first comment: love the topic of this discussion and am only 5 minutes in, but had to hit pause to carmudgeonize on the fact that "investing" in cars spooks me a bit because, like homes in the Bay Area, we end up with a lot of fat investors and a lot of empty homes that could actually be being lived in. Don't invest. DRIVE!
Oddball performer will be Pontiac Aztec, low milafe well preserved. 99% will be driven into nonexistance, and eventually there will be a breaking bad nostalgia if a certain generation.
My favorite example of people trying to talk value into a non-rare car is when muscle car nuts start parsing build sheet variations and say "this car is 1 of 3" or "this car is 1 of 1." Naw son. The build numbers of that car are in 6 figures, the fact that it is a color/trim/equipment combo that is not common makes it unique, not rare. Unique can certainly add value, but not exponential to the general value of that not-rare model. We work on a lot of muscle cars at our shop, and the only thing more exaggerated than perception of value is butt-dyno horsepower numbers.
It's advisable to ignore my pontification, it's based on conjecture and loaded with bias. With that said; I don't see an ongoing future in cars... The Internet has filled a hole that cars once did. Millennials are generally hopeless and Zoomers are growing up seeing a car as an expensive piece of transportation in their formative years. They didn't experience the freedom and fun that we saw growing up pre-2K. I think the last wave will be a GEN-X boom of 90's cool common(ish) production cars. I'm thinking Dodge Vipers, 3000 GTs, Acura NSX or possibly the RX-8. Then, there will be few if any classics.... Maybe the last gas fun car will be collectible as the only options become crappy, plastic, disposable e-cars.
The e30 M3 and the Porsche Speedster (1989/90?): You could not GIVE these cars away when they were new, and at BMW we had factory incentive money which lowered the price to UNDER $25,000 NEW. The Acura NSX and the BMW 850i came out the same year; The NSX goes for $45k now; the 8 Series around $15k....who would have thought?
I'm hoping the limited numbers of the Alfa 4C prevent it from ever dipping below 30 like the Elise... cause I wanna replace my 997S with one (for a while, anyway; will probably go back to a 911 but I want to say I owned an Alfa once in my life)
Thats so funny you mentioned the Camry, I have been eyeing a Camry of the previous body style (86-92) outside the window at work, its not mint, but something about that styling is intoxicating. Its got great lines around the rear windshield section.
They had all-wheel drive manual versions of the 86-91 Camry! A few months ago I came across a MINT looking '94 coupe in bright red. I never in my life thought i'd pull my phone out to snap a pic of a CAMRY of all things, but it was immaculate and I had to do it.
Hah. I spent years telling people that 350z's will be rarer than anyone thinks once we get done drifting and crashing them. Literally everyone who ever heard me called me an idiot. But they're all wrong and i'm right. And you're also right. Also clean S13s and S14s. Yeah, there's already a big drift tax on those, but 10 years from now, $15K for a clean S13 or S14 is gonna seem like nothing. Nobody wants to admit it, but the obnoxious drift kids they all roll their eyes at are going to be middle aged adults with genuine purchasing power in 10-15 years.
@@freedbeefpontoons I knew I wasn't alone the g35 and 350 were made at the end of the pinnacle of nissan manufacturing. If you go back and read when the g35 and 350 came they were punching way above their weight class. The reason I especially say the g35 is because of the timeless styling the rear end of the 350 hurt it. Also the g35 at the time was a better peforming car then the e46 m3
The oddest turn of events is that a clean NA Miata is starting to become more expensive than NBs just because they're add either modded or you want to pay the pop up tax
in regards to the ford being just a ford. the gt350R's voodoo engine cost of replacement is nearly 30,000. I feel that alone and the frequency of oil consumption issues will cause that car to not appreciate the way it should have with such a unique package
The first gen Honda Insight could very well end up a collectable. It was the first hybrid sold in America, it was the only hybrid available with a manual transmission, they're all aluminum, distinctive looking, genuinely deliver what they set out to deliver in terms of performance, feature some cool fuel saving tech, have a dedicated core of enthusiasts, and sold in pretty small numbers (around 17,000). I for one see it as a car that I could drive into the future when gasoline engined cars become something that people look down on, and I am genuinely keeping an eye out for the right one.
@@freedbeefpontoons For sure. And I've distracted myself by now looking for an Acura RSX. But like, the Prius drives like an appliance, those drive like a space capsule.
@@bluetoes591 Yeah and the old insights had a manual! Hybrid-manual is weird and interesting enough that i bet they're kinda fun to drive. The same can not be said for the Prius.
Only the S1 Elise were large clam cars ie. principally two piece bodywork (8 piece in total, in fact). S2 & S3 have progressively more panels for ease of repair etc. Clams can be significantly repaired in any event & prices are comparable with steel panel cars.
The AMC Eagle is cool because winter is a thing. Subarus are aweful to work on and audis don't last and are overcomplicated. If you want a lifted manual wagon it's for sure the coolest option. It also came in 2 door coupe and Targa versions, a gremlin based version, an ultra rally fastback version and a 4 door sedan. You guys should do an episode on winter cars for car people!
I believe the late 90s through the 2000s brought some amazing cars that still had low enough production numbers for them to be special. If I saw a Lamborghini Murcielago in 2005 I went batshit, while an Aventador is just a boring clout-mobile 90% of the time.
Being an ex owner of an e90 m3 I disagree on the last part haha. But I agree I can see the e92 gen m3 being collectable. Espicaly since it is the last of so many things for the m3.
You guys maybe under estimating the effects of the Chinese market for collector cars. I think there would be a paradigm shift for future collector cars. Cars were a foreign object to majority of Chinese people until the mid late 90s. So cars from 70s to early 90s may not be attractive to them while quite mundane examples of 90s and 2000s when cars started to become very desirable. These cars became attainable to the middle class when they started to make money and was able to aspire to own them. These cars may bring big money from Chinese market may become collectible to collectors in future.
That's a real good point. Haven't been there in like 15 years, but I remember the market being heavily biased towards VW/Audi vehicles. Anyway, that's a pretty brilliant observation on your part.
Again a nice way to spend an hour of my time.only would've liked the 2 of you to each pick 5 new cars you think will be classics and will hold or increase in value. 20 years from now we can see who really knew what he was talking about. 😉
Bush years had E39 M5s and 540iT that are both doing very well. My wagon is a Dinan S2 and that is well on its way to 6 figures though the S2 and S3s can be counted in the single digits rarity wise. Good E39 M5s will should continue climbing for awhile. And they are both 4 door burners.
The whole M2 range will probably be remembered as the last great "analogue" M. They will be collectable. Both the standard M2 and the M2 Competition with the full M-perfomance package are great drivers cars.
I still have my 1994 Camry. Beige with gold package like the picture...haha. Great year, before Toyota cheapened them to make the Lexus version stand out. You did well on your 996. Mine had IMS at 35k and no warranty because of Vortech SC. Still have it at 135k and replacement engine from Porsche has been perfect but definitly lost my ass in depreciation and maintenance so refuse to ever sell this money pit because I know it has to last another 100k at least with everything I've replaced
Owned a 1M and M2, 1M is much more raw feeling, and a much smaller car. Also, last M-car with hydraulic steering. It feels pretty special. I think 997 GT cars will be something that holds value. The smaller size and hydraulic steering make them feel much different than 991.
Love you channels guys .... i believe that alot of 90's cars, domestic or import will be collectors items. Post Y2K cars seems to be produced in a soulless era and are made to be thrown away...
@@carsaregood911 Not a single R prototype/test mule has been spotted with a manual. Likely because the increase in power/torque means they would have had to go to (or develop) a new clutch (the mk7 R uses the GTI's clutch) meanwhile the DSG can hold 500-600 lb-ft of torque no problem. The stock mk7 golf R clutch is very weak and can regularly fail at stock power levels, it cannot withstand the increased power levels the mk8 R will be producing. The very likely outcome is that the mk8 R will be DCT only.
The 996 was made on the cheap when Porsche was in financial trouble, the early cars even shared the front end with the Boxter. As Porsche went water cooled too, it made the air cooled cars rocket up in price. The later water cooled models over time went up in quality, so the 996 became an unloved model, so they kept dropping in price.
interesting case study: a well sorted 1993 Cadillac Allante will fetch nearly $20k. It is hard to get the same asking price for a similarly aged MBZ SL500 although there is no doubt which is the better car (the MBZ, obviously).
Really interesting episode again! But i have to disagree heavily with the desirability at production time. Nobody wanted 996 GT3s and even 997 GT3s were a hard sell. Same for the 1M coupe. Everybody wanted it after it was discontinued! I remember seeing them sold with huge discounts
I live in the uk and owned a euro e36 m3 evo, to this day I miss the sound of that car, I owned it in 2006 and today a good one is worth double what I paid for it back then.
Aston vs Mustang debate also depends on whether you're actually going to drive the car daily or enjoy only occasionally and keep as a pristine classic. If you regularly drive the roads around our big cities you can't keep anything nice. Also, I too loved my 94 Camry - white SE V6 sedan. Great car.
The CLK 55 cabriolets are low numbered, approximately 800 USA, and a lot of car for the money. I haven’t priced them recently but years ago higher mileage cars you could find for $8k and sub 100k miles $12-20k.
Cars as an investment for most people really isn't a thing, having said that from time to time car prices go up dramatically, for example over here in the UK the price of what could be called classic cars shot up in the mid to late 80's and some people made a lot of money, some of course did not. This has happened periodically since so I'd say if you're into cars just collect what you like and if you're lucky you may find one of your cars go up dramatically in value but don't bet on it. At the top end of the market of course things are different, then you can buy a extremely expensive car and sell in a short time for a profit if the market demand isn't being met by the supply or hold onto the car for longer and you may still be looking at a good profit if the car wasn't made in large numbers. In the future internal combustion cars may be worth a lot especially if it's something a bit special when we can no longer buy new cars that aren't either hybrid or electric in nature. People will still want a car that makes them feel something and most electric cars are more like an appliance than an emotional experience, that's assuming that we're actually allowed to drive internal combustion engined cars on the road at that stage.
Do you guys think my Noble m12 has potential as a future collector? I am sure both of you guys get offers all the time, but I am in the east bay area of CA, if either of you wants to have a go.
The estates of dead Boomers will soon flood the market with all manner of collected cars, if that hasn't begun already. The decline of the middle class, and the troubles we face in the foreseeable future, signal a sharp decline in current stratospheric prices. The stirring sounds and mechanical details of IC engines, wrought in manly steel and aluminum, are huge factors in our love of cars. But many people under 25 today see internal combustion cars as 'the enemy', and the electric car revolution is now inevitable. So are alternatives to traditional ownership. Meanwhile, electric cars literally have no soul. They seem unlikely to generate much passion. They are, inevitably, appliances. I think we are currently witnessing 'Peak Collector Car'. Might as well enjoy it.
Yup. All those 90's Hondas got beat on thanks to people modifying (and stealing) them. They built them in HUGE numbers, but clean unmodified examples are STILL pretty rare. People will cringe when I suggest it, but really anything that's already got the "drift tax" on it will probably end up pretty rare. Right now we're balking at $20K S13's and S14's but ten years from now, unmodified examples of those cars will be worth a lot, and we'll be balking at $15K 350Z's.
I would think a stock, low mileage Fiesta ST will be worth quite a bit of cash someday. The Focus RS too. The Pontiac G8 and Chevy SS may also be sought after at some point.
You have to love how these shows are structured. It's kinda like sitting down for a conversation with people who are actually informed about cars instead of watching some glorified advertisement for a car.
Like Top Gear, Carwow, etc... For example
Carwow is basically a huge ad, I'm surprised people enjoy it.
@@dragospahontu Sometimes the drag races between Yanni and Mat are fun to watch. The cars they drag race are nice too.
Doesn't compare to Sandler and Hyphen though
@@spongeborgtheford4971 for me Savagegeese is the only real guy. #noads
@@dragospahontu never heard of him please enlighten me
@@spongeborgtheford4971 go on TH-cam. His videos speak for themselves. He does everything. Jack is an engineer
I think this was a spectacular articulation. Speed vs Experience, thats why the slowest sports car available new (Miata) is so popular. Being fast is not a lasting status, being fun is forever.
Spot on.Been driving a 2000 mr2 (mrs)spyder for 6 months.So much fun and sort of safe.Puts a smile on my face every time i drive it.
When Derek was talking about cars having a replacment that completely changed and lost credit, I immediately started looking at prices on the last generation of V8 Vantage...
The 2017 V12 vantage will be one to watch in another 7 or 8 years, you can get them with a manual and it will probably be the last manual V12 car ever built (with the exception of Gordan Murrays T.50). Also they are beautiful.
Totally agree, the new Vantage is a disgrace. The old V8 Vantage, DB9, DBS are amazing
That's the most obvious "modern classic". Manual V8 or V12 Vantage. Beautiful, great engine, manual gearbox. It's never going to go out of style.
I'll be working my ass off after I get my degree to buy a V12 Vantage. And honestly, if you have the means to buy a DBS with a manual gearbox do that (or buy both, if you can) because they're gonna shoot up in value once people realize what they are and how cheap those V12s are to maintain. Probably the best V12 out there maintenance-wise, since they are very reliable and parts aren't that expensive.
That Z8 vs SL55 comparison really made me laugh because I was selling Mercedes Benz in 2002 when the 2003 MB SL55 came out and we also had a BMW and Audi franchise as well ....long story short is that we had a ridiculous waiting lists for the SL55 and we actually sold our first one for $25k over MSRP (roughly $150k after markup) and continued to sell them between $10-15k over (unless they were a local previous customer, then MSRP) meanwhile our BMW store down the street had a silver Alpina Z8 (admittedly the less desirable Z8 nowadays but at that point in time it was actually probably the more desirable one because it was a 1 year only model and not every buyer was an enthusiast) and the Z8 was nailed to the showroom floor for like 5-6months and if I remember correctly it was like a $138k MSRP car. To this day every single time I see an SL55 I find it hillarious to think that literally almost none of them are even worth as much as the markup over MSRP that we were charging back in the day...... and that Alpina Z8 that they would have begged you to take off their hands is at worst case still the same price as it was 17-18 years ago 😂🤦🏻♂️
EDIT** just looked up Alpina Z8’s and uh.... I think it’s safe to say I was way off in my values, an Alpina Z8 in a bushel basket or at the bottom of a lake is about the only way you’d get one for MSRP. Looks like you’d have to add about $100k on top of that original MSRP to own any Alpina Z8 😬
Well, that is pretty much down to production numbers. The Alpina Z8 is a rare car, whereas the SL55 sold in relatively big numbers. The SL 55 is also a better car in every way, especially the later 07-08 performance pack cars. AMGs of this era like the SL55 are undervalued for the amount of car you get.
@@AMGmeister username checks out
I’m so glad I don’t live in USA when it comes to many things (don’t get me wrong I also like something’s!), especially the weird car selling practices there, in Europe the dealer is legally only able to sell you a new car for the MSRP, not a euro or pound more!! And we order luxury cars to the spec we want mostly, not some half assed shit spec a dealer thinks is great because they’ve got it in stock... if you’re buying a new car, spec it the way you want it and wait a little bit and do a factory collection if you actually like/love cars🤷♂️😂 having worked in the U.K. high end motor trade all my life, I’d never advise anyone to buy a “new” car off the lot unless it’s heavily discounted, you’d have to be mental to let a dealer make money from your own impatience of wanting something straight away!😂 (oh in Europe dealers can charge market values for used cars, so cars like GT3’s 911R’s that always increase over new MRSP’s go up as used, not new... new you pay MSRP! you have to register with your local dealer to get one as new though like all special Porsche models.... often go to “good” customers, often car flipping assholes (although Porsche are working on that, to stop car flipping as it’s ruining what the cars are meant for... driving them!)
They might be incredibly increasing in price, and while i think the Z8 was one of the best looking BMW's ever... If you think about it, which car brought more joy for the money to the people who bought them? The Z8 was know from the beginning to be a very limited number, so my guess would be only a fraction of the owners actually use(d) them for what they were built. While almost all SL's of that era got used by their owners.
I just asked Siri to set a reminder 50 years from now for me to check the values of Murano Crosscabs. Reporting back on July 8th, 2070!
To show how carmudgeon(y) you guys are you should make an episode of new cars you guys like/would buy and what reasons for them!!! 🤔
It'd be the shortest episode yet. Good idea! :)
@@JasonCammisa e-Golf for you, nothing for Hyphen!
17:00 Ford has made more than 1,000 of the current generation GT, and they are valued at more than 1 million. However once more of the cars get to the point where the original owners can legally sell them I think their values will drop significantly
The first allocations recently passed the 2 year sale embargo. Sale prices were still considerably higher than MSRP but typically not the 7 figures that everyone was sure to happen. With every passing year, more and more of these cars will flood the market. I don't think they'll ever trade at a loss for the seller, but I'm sure there will be a lot of disappointed people hoping for a 2-3x MSRP windfall. Rarity will soon be the only thing bolstering the prices. Personally, I don't think it's aesthetically pleasing and the tech/performance will be outdated long before the end of the production run.
Won’t lose money because it’s a homologation car which won Le Mans
As someone who made the Seattle to San Jose drive twice a year for several years, I feel Derek's pain.
Always look forward to another episode of The Carmudgeon Show! Keep them coming!
When the original e30 M3 and Porsche Roadster were new in late 80's, dealers could not give them away. Literally. The last m3's left the dealerships after sitting 18 months thanks to a $7500 incentive, making the OTD price close to $25,000 with dealer discounting.
I feel there are some key factors as to how a car can become collectable:
1)Rarity and Exclusivity
2) Manual Transmission
3) NA if it's a sports/supercar
4)Having a few Analogue touches
5)Really good driving Experience
6) Untouched Cars especially the ones which are prone to be modded such a Nissan S13 where they fetch way more money stock as to a modded one
A common issue with Aston single clutches from 10-15 years ago is people drove them like automatics and burnt the clutches out. This led to them getting an unfair reputation of wearing out quickly.
Also, this is the first episode that I’ve watched and this show is spectacular. Great work!
Jason actually has a great singing voice.
One of the cars that were desirable when I was in my first years of studying architecture, ended up in my garage. As a growing designer, I was shocked with the new then 3200 GT, which was a totally different thing than the biturbo based cars of the past. 20 years later and I bought a 4200, a pretty similar car to the 3200. The desires of our youth become the rewards of our "maturity", I guess.
( low prices due to trans bad rep reinforced my choice, I have to admit)
BMW E9x 328i manual - last of the handsome, analog, NA era - future classic.
Audi R8 V10 gated manual
The Carlton was a 90s legend, all us kids wanted one, along with a cossie
There are no modern cars that can touch the Lotus Carlton
1971 Datsun 240Z sold for $310,000 and 2000 Honda Civic SI sold for $50,000 on Bring a Trailer earlier this year!
I'd say anything I used to pine for when I was a kid but couldn't afford at the time (with all the associated memories of the period) that over the years has come within my reach and the reach all the my peers will be valuable one day.
I think sometimes when some cars shoot up in value, the "cheap alternatives" or the cars that are from the same era but were unappreciated can go up too when people look for alternatives to a car they can no longer afford. The air-cooled 911s suddenly shot through the moon in value, and now versions of the 928 are starting to go up in value.
I agree. I think this is happening to 996s too. Some of the burn-the-fried-egg-with-fire people are turning into look-how-much-911-experience-you-can-get-for-the-money people. I'm one of them.
i put rally tires on a 90s manual v6 camry a decade ago, chopped the exhaust off of it and drove it like i hated it around a farm. it was dirt cheap, took abusive driving in its stride and was surprisingly fun to bounce off of trees and though the mud.
Damn it I thought I finally had Shirtless McAbsFace to myself
id like to see the podcasts extended to an extra half an hour
How did you not know the 996 values would plummet? Everyone ragged on it for the fried egg headlights and the lose of an air-cooled engine. The die-hards thought it was almost as much as sacrilege as the Cayenne.
I had a 13 Passat TDi manual. I could have made that drive (895 miles) on a single tank of diesel. That thing was a road trip MACHINE.
The AM Vantage is so under rated. Go Drive it!!! Love it.
Jason is so right about old gold camrys. I used to park cars at a Toyota/Ford dealer and of all the stuff I drove, those old camrys always stood out. Super comfortable and nice to drive cars.
Another great one that push me through the week
S54 is one of the best sounding engines in history
I definitely foresee any manual car that was well kept being worth something in 30+ years once EVs have taken over the market.
We can laugh at the Nissan Murano now, but nobody saw the really old Ford Broncos and Mitsubishi Delica's being so valuable nowadays. Sometimes, you just never know.
That’s a great point, and I think both of the examples you mentioned are awesome. The Delica 4x4 is particularly beautiful to me.
so e86 z4mc ? Last of the NA, manual only, hydraulic steering, light-ish weight BMWs ? Low productions numbers, moderate attrition factor, decent experience and polarizing looks.
I kick myself for selling mine all the time. But a Carrera T dries the tears.
People will buy the thing they wanted in high school, whatever that is. That's why the Radwood thing is happening now. Car guys in their 40s are buying the stuff they had or wanted when they were 15.
"____ era will never be cool" will turn out to be wrong when that era turns 25 to 35 years old.
I can’t wait for the 50k insight on bring a trailer
2000 Cobra R. Checks most of the boxes if you ask me.
Despite the Focus RS being discontinued, abroad and in the US, I have no hope for it holding much value in the future.
Would you have predicted the VW Bus going up in value as much as it has in the last 15 years? 20 years ago, I would have never thought we'd see solid 6 figures for a crappy old VW Bus.
My 2010 Ford Taurus SHO will some day be worth it's scrap metal price one day.
Is Jason's chair a Recaro from an MK2 VW?
Well-spotted. It sure is! Mk2 GTI 16V
JasonCammisa this should cheer you up.... from a fellow idiot that spends way more on one of my cars than I ever should have!🤦🏼♂️ see at least even your seat is going up in value if you sell it in Europe!!!😂 www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324202707534
tbh I think the Viper will hit at least six digits someday. cause it is the last car that WILL kill you if you aren't careful. so A, that means there will be very few of them left on the road, and B, its kinda the last of an Era
Just finished watching the 2019 Miata discussion. Elated to find a new episode (I love Wednesdays!). My first comment: love the topic of this discussion and am only 5 minutes in, but had to hit pause to carmudgeonize on the fact that "investing" in cars spooks me a bit because, like homes in the Bay Area, we end up with a lot of fat investors and a lot of empty homes that could actually be being lived in. Don't invest. DRIVE!
I agree about the 92-95 Camry. Rented one for 3 months on an assignment and it was great!
@5:25 Well done DT-S! Need to chirp Jason more often.
Its whatever evokes emotion and then delivers on goodness
Oddball performer will be Pontiac Aztec, low milafe well preserved. 99% will be driven into nonexistance, and eventually there will be a breaking bad nostalgia if a certain generation.
Can’t agree with you more on the ‘92 Camry Jason, and there were 5-spds too. . . Well done gentlemen!
The eclipse GSX would come to mind, those are getting hard to find
And in that same vein a Talon Tsi and 3000GT VR4s.
FINALLY, some one who understands that the s54 sounds best listening to the intake, and any E36 M3 generally sounds better over all
I thought the rule was 2 of the 3 to be classic: Rare, Beautiful, Important. Although two of those are subjective.
My favorite example of people trying to talk value into a non-rare car is when muscle car nuts start parsing build sheet variations and say "this car is 1 of 3" or "this car is 1 of 1." Naw son. The build numbers of that car are in 6 figures, the fact that it is a color/trim/equipment combo that is not common makes it unique, not rare. Unique can certainly add value, but not exponential to the general value of that not-rare model. We work on a lot of muscle cars at our shop, and the only thing more exaggerated than perception of value is butt-dyno horsepower numbers.
It's advisable to ignore my pontification, it's based on conjecture and loaded with bias. With that said; I don't see an ongoing future in cars... The Internet has filled a hole that cars once did. Millennials are generally hopeless and Zoomers are growing up seeing a car as an expensive piece of transportation in their formative years. They didn't experience the freedom and fun that we saw growing up pre-2K. I think the last wave will be a GEN-X boom of 90's cool common(ish) production cars. I'm thinking Dodge Vipers, 3000 GTs, Acura NSX or possibly the RX-8.
Then, there will be few if any classics....
Maybe the last gas fun car will be collectible as the only options become crappy, plastic, disposable e-cars.
The e30 M3 and the Porsche Speedster (1989/90?): You could not GIVE these cars away when they were new, and at BMW we had factory incentive money which lowered the price to UNDER $25,000 NEW. The Acura NSX and the BMW 850i came out the same year; The NSX goes for $45k now; the 8 Series around $15k....who would have thought?
I'm hoping the limited numbers of the Alfa 4C prevent it from ever dipping below 30 like the Elise... cause I wanna replace my 997S with one (for a while, anyway; will probably go back to a 911 but I want to say I owned an Alfa once in my life)
Thats so funny you mentioned the Camry, I have been eyeing a Camry of the previous body style (86-92) outside the window at work, its not mint, but something about that styling is intoxicating. Its got great lines around the rear windshield section.
They had all-wheel drive manual versions of the 86-91 Camry! A few months ago I came across a MINT looking '94 coupe in bright red. I never in my life thought i'd pull my phone out to snap a pic of a CAMRY of all things, but it was immaculate and I had to do it.
Modern version of the collectible nature of Isetta has to be the 2011 Aston Martin Cygnet, going for $30K to 50K.
I'm calling it not because I'm an owner but judging by the 240 community a clean low mile g35 will be worth more than we'll expect
Hah. I spent years telling people that 350z's will be rarer than anyone thinks once we get done drifting and crashing them. Literally everyone who ever heard me called me an idiot. But they're all wrong and i'm right. And you're also right. Also clean S13s and S14s. Yeah, there's already a big drift tax on those, but 10 years from now, $15K for a clean S13 or S14 is gonna seem like nothing. Nobody wants to admit it, but the obnoxious drift kids they all roll their eyes at are going to be middle aged adults with genuine purchasing power in 10-15 years.
@@freedbeefpontoons I knew I wasn't alone the g35 and 350 were made at the end of the pinnacle of nissan manufacturing. If you go back and read when the g35 and 350 came they were punching way above their weight class. The reason I especially say the g35 is because of the timeless styling the rear end of the 350 hurt it. Also the g35 at the time was a better peforming car then the e46 m3
Great episode guys! Keep it up! But a big HELL NO to the Nissan Murano!
The oddest turn of events is that a clean NA Miata is starting to become more expensive than NBs just because they're add either modded or you want to pay the pop up tax
They’ve hit classic car status.
in regards to the ford being just a ford. the gt350R's voodoo engine cost of replacement is nearly 30,000. I feel that alone and the frequency of oil consumption issues will cause that car to not appreciate the way it should have with such a unique package
i also DM'ed you about my very own gt350 that you helped sell me on with your MT video
The first gen Honda Insight could very well end up a collectable. It was the first hybrid sold in America, it was the only hybrid available with a manual transmission, they're all aluminum, distinctive looking, genuinely deliver what they set out to deliver in terms of performance, feature some cool fuel saving tech, have a dedicated core of enthusiasts, and sold in pretty small numbers (around 17,000). I for one see it as a car that I could drive into the future when gasoline engined cars become something that people look down on, and I am genuinely keeping an eye out for the right one.
Such a weird choice, but I can't say i disagree with you here.
@@freedbeefpontoons For sure. And I've distracted myself by now looking for an Acura RSX. But like, the Prius drives like an appliance, those drive like a space capsule.
@@bluetoes591 Yeah and the old insights had a manual! Hybrid-manual is weird and interesting enough that i bet they're kinda fun to drive. The same can not be said for the Prius.
Only the S1 Elise were large clam cars ie. principally two piece bodywork (8 piece in total, in fact). S2 & S3 have progressively more panels for ease of repair etc. Clams can be significantly repaired in any event & prices are comparable with steel panel cars.
The AMC Eagle is cool because winter is a thing. Subarus are aweful to work on and audis don't last and are overcomplicated. If you want a lifted manual wagon it's for sure the coolest option. It also came in 2 door coupe and Targa versions, a gremlin based version, an ultra rally fastback version and a 4 door sedan. You guys should do an episode on winter cars for car people!
Jason talks about losing $10k over 3 years is bad. And I realise that I lost about $24k over 3 years just for renting a parking space.
Cammisa, how about you water that plant sometime this month?
I believe the late 90s through the 2000s brought some amazing cars that still had low enough production numbers for them to be special. If I saw a Lamborghini Murcielago in 2005 I went batshit, while an Aventador is just a boring clout-mobile 90% of the time.
I always think E92 M3 will become a classic. First and last M3 with V8. Last naturally aspirated M3. Last M3 in coupe form (like God intend to be).
Being an ex owner of an e90 m3 I disagree on the last part haha. But I agree I can see the e92 gen m3 being collectable. Espicaly since it is the last of so many things for the m3.
You guys maybe under estimating the effects of the Chinese market for collector cars. I think there would be a paradigm shift for future collector cars. Cars were a foreign object to majority of Chinese people until the mid late 90s. So cars from 70s to early 90s may not be attractive to them while quite mundane examples of 90s and 2000s when cars started to become very desirable. These cars became attainable to the middle class when they started to make money and was able to aspire to own them. These cars may bring big money from Chinese market may become collectible to collectors in future.
That's a real good point. Haven't been there in like 15 years, but I remember the market being heavily biased towards VW/Audi vehicles. Anyway, that's a pretty brilliant observation on your part.
Again a nice way to spend an hour of my time.only would've liked the 2 of you to each pick 5 new cars you think will be classics and will hold or increase in value. 20 years from now we can see who really knew what he was talking about. 😉
Add another example to the Gullwing/F40 exception. They made about 1,500 1973 Porsche 2.7 RS cars, yet they reached 7 figures.
I'd love to know what Jason has spent on his child, I mean Scirocco.
Didn't he say in one episode that it's had six engines or something like that? 16 valves aren't cheap.
They made 1300 Carrera GT’s and they are worth more than a million dollars
The VW Beetle RSI is probably the blobbiest future classic.
Bush years had E39 M5s and 540iT that are both doing very well. My wagon is a Dinan S2 and that is well on its way to 6 figures though the S2 and S3s can be counted in the single digits rarity wise. Good E39 M5s will should continue climbing for awhile. And they are both 4 door burners.
The new M2 Cs is going to be the one that becomes valuable if the m2 ever becomes valuable .
I've heard the non comp M2 is better mannered...
Problem is the S55 sounds bad. IMO the 1M will always be more collectible
@@jose7777777777777777 agreed, s55 sounds horrid
@@jose7777777777777777 those box fender flares 🤤
The whole M2 range will probably be remembered as the last great "analogue" M.
They will be collectable.
Both the standard M2 and the M2 Competition with the full M-perfomance package are great drivers cars.
I still have my 1994 Camry. Beige with gold package like the picture...haha. Great year, before Toyota cheapened them to make the Lexus version stand out. You did well on your 996. Mine had IMS at 35k and no warranty because of Vortech SC. Still have it at 135k and replacement engine from Porsche has been perfect but definitly lost my ass in depreciation and maintenance so refuse to ever sell this money pit because I know it has to last another 100k at least with everything I've replaced
Owned a 1M and M2, 1M is much more raw feeling, and a much smaller car. Also, last M-car with hydraulic steering. It feels pretty special. I think 997 GT cars will be something that holds value. The smaller size and hydraulic steering make them feel much different than 991.
I think the 997 looks so much better in person than the 991 just because of the smaller size
yall should do a Q&A episode
Love you channels guys .... i believe that alot of 90's cars, domestic or import will be collectors items. Post Y2K cars seems to be produced in a soulless era and are made to be thrown away...
I am leaning towards the shelby btw haha, glad it made steam come out of your ears too, was a big back and forth for a while.
Thanks for the new episode! Maybe my Golf R with the last manual trans ever offered will be worth something in the future.
The Mk8 will have a manual
@@duncantodd3403 Not on the R model.
@@NoahBB Is this confirmed? I don't think so
@@carsaregood911 Not a single R prototype/test mule has been spotted with a manual. Likely because the increase in power/torque means they would have had to go to (or develop) a new clutch (the mk7 R uses the GTI's clutch) meanwhile the DSG can hold 500-600 lb-ft of torque no problem. The stock mk7 golf R clutch is very weak and can regularly fail at stock power levels, it cannot withstand the increased power levels the mk8 R will be producing. The very likely outcome is that the mk8 R will be DCT only.
The 996 was made on the cheap when Porsche was in financial trouble, the early cars even shared the front end with the Boxter. As Porsche went water cooled too, it made the air cooled cars rocket up in price. The later water cooled models over time went up in quality, so the 996 became an unloved model, so they kept dropping in price.
interesting case study: a well sorted 1993 Cadillac Allante will fetch nearly $20k. It is hard to get the same asking price for a similarly aged MBZ SL500 although there is no doubt which is the better car (the MBZ, obviously).
Really interesting episode again! But i have to disagree heavily with the desirability at production time. Nobody wanted 996 GT3s and even 997 GT3s were a hard sell. Same for the 1M coupe. Everybody wanted it after it was discontinued! I remember seeing them sold with huge discounts
Or carrera GT was a huge letdown.
I live in the uk and owned a euro e36 m3 evo, to this day I miss the sound of that car, I owned it in 2006 and today a good one is worth double what I paid for it back then.
Aston vs Mustang debate also depends on whether you're actually going to drive the car daily or enjoy only occasionally and keep as a pristine classic. If you regularly drive the roads around our big cities you can't keep anything nice. Also, I too loved my 94 Camry - white SE V6 sedan. Great car.
Need to talk about after market kits - rwb, mansory, rocket bunny, etc
You guys need to incorporate a whiteboard for talks like these.
Regarding Q.E.D., the bay area NPR radio station is called KQED in reference to Q.E.D.
The CLK 55 cabriolets are low numbered, approximately 800 USA, and a lot of car for the money. I haven’t priced them recently but years ago higher mileage cars you could find for $8k and sub 100k miles $12-20k.
Jason, I got a 1977 2door rabbit with 45 orig miles on it that's all original. I'm looking to unload it. Any suggestions?
Alfa 4C
Cars as an investment for most people really isn't a thing, having said that from time to time car prices go up dramatically, for example over here in the UK the price of what could be called classic cars shot up in the mid to late 80's and some people made a lot of money, some of course did not. This has happened periodically since so I'd say if you're into cars just collect what you like and if you're lucky you may find one of your cars go up dramatically in value but don't bet on it. At the top end of the market of course things are different, then you can buy a extremely expensive car and sell in a short time for a profit if the market demand isn't being met by the supply or hold onto the car for longer and you may still be looking at a good profit if the car wasn't made in large numbers. In the future internal combustion cars may be worth a lot especially if it's something a bit special when we can no longer buy new cars that aren't either hybrid or electric in nature. People will still want a car that makes them feel something and most electric cars are more like an appliance than an emotional experience, that's assuming that we're actually allowed to drive internal combustion engined cars on the road at that stage.
Due to attrition, the original Infiniti G35 manual coupe might be interesting. Timeless design but so few left in good condition..
My 3&6yo kids trip out on pop-up headlights. 😆
They didn't build 272 Porsche 959's. 272 Ferrari 288 GTO's were built. About 330 959 were made.
Do you guys think my Noble m12 has potential as a future collector? I am sure both of you guys get offers all the time, but I am in the east bay area of CA, if either of you wants to have a go.
The estates of dead Boomers will soon flood the market with all manner of collected cars, if that hasn't begun already. The decline of the middle class, and the troubles we face in the foreseeable future, signal a sharp decline in current stratospheric prices.
The stirring sounds and mechanical details of IC engines, wrought in manly steel and aluminum, are huge factors in our love of cars. But many people under 25 today see internal combustion cars as 'the enemy', and the electric car revolution is now inevitable. So are alternatives to traditional ownership. Meanwhile, electric cars literally have no soul. They seem unlikely to generate much passion. They are, inevitably, appliances.
I think we are currently witnessing 'Peak Collector Car'. Might as well enjoy it.
High attrition rate like the Integra Type R?
Yup. All those 90's Hondas got beat on thanks to people modifying (and stealing) them. They built them in HUGE numbers, but clean unmodified examples are STILL pretty rare. People will cringe when I suggest it, but really anything that's already got the "drift tax" on it will probably end up pretty rare. Right now we're balking at $20K S13's and S14's but ten years from now, unmodified examples of those cars will be worth a lot, and we'll be balking at $15K 350Z's.
Renault Avantime is the most early 2000 design language you can find from that era
That's a subtle one
Euro-blobbyness deluxe: Ford Sierra RS Cosworth
I would think a stock, low mileage Fiesta ST will be worth quite a bit of cash someday. The Focus RS too. The Pontiac G8 and Chevy SS may also be sought after at some point.