I read a study from Accuracy International where they tried fluting barrels for a while. What they found was that a fluted barrel, no matter how you did the fluting, always walked off target more with heat than a non fluted barrel. That's why Accuracy International will not flute a barrel on one of their guns. For hunting guns, that's probably okay, with maybe 3 or 4 shots at a time. Combat sniper rifles have to be reliable and accurate over an extended string of fire.
I remember that as well. AI eventually gave in and fluted their barrels to meet the weight requirement on a military acquisition. They didn't want to, but they had to meet weight requirements. The increased shot dispersion at long range has to do with the flute machining, barrel material grain structure and hardness. The grain structure and hardness change along the length of the barrel, and thus act differently during long shot strings. Combine this with the flutes, which no matter how precisely they're done, are minutely different in dimension. These all combine to cause the barrel to flex/expand under heat differently, causing more dispersion at long range. Fluting simply adds another avenue for dispersion to enter the equation. Fluting also DOES NOT increase rigidity, deflection tests on the same barrel before and after fluting show DECREASES rigidity. The dame barrel after fluting will be slightly more rigid than a non fluted barrel of the same weight.
Fluting is great for weight reduction in heavy rifles if you combine it with other weight reducing measures. I have a Remington 700 Police Tactical rifle in .300WM that has a heavy contour barrel. I sent the barrel off to be deeply spiral fluted after having it shortened from 26" to 22" and threaded by a local gunsmith. I also went to a lighter scope and scope bases/rings and managed to shave about two pounds off the rifle. That transformed a rifle what was really better suited to a bench rest to a rifle that was now manageable in the field from about 12 lbs to 10 lbs. The only thing I really had to do is rework my handloads for the rifle for the new barrel harmonics. The rifle still shoots sub-MOA.
You can take a number 4 contour, make it the weight of a number 3 but the stiffness of a 3 1/2. It's like what you loose in weight from fluting, you only loose a portion of that in rigidity.
The main contributor to barrel stiffness and cooling resulting from fluting is the flutes create create more barrel surface area per any given barrel diameter. That’s the science behind fluting.
I'll go out on a limb & say it's all mostly to get more money out of your wallet. If professional shooters are not using any of these add-ons why would we need them. I saw Erik Cortina's guns lined up in a video & he uses heavy long stainless barrels with a tuner break. The pro guys using 22"S don't use any of this either do they ? Maybe carbon barrels are an advantage for professional animal controllers who shoot pretty quick on mobs of pigs, but mostly i think for the average hunter it's just the cool factor.
FWIW: I bought a new Winchester M70 (30/06)-(long ago). The shots would string vertically with every load & every bullet type & weight. Had the barrel pulled & cryo freeze treated. Did it make a bad barrel good? No. But it stopped the stringing. All shots stayed within a baseball/softball grouping - even at 300 meters. Made the rifle usable for hunting, but the barrel had been straightened at the factory, and stresses induced, which manifested under heat (IMO)...it needed a new barrel-right out of the factory. The moral of the story, good barrel steel properly heat treated & machined all matter. At every step, garbage in, garbage out.
You’re just a hater. This is your third negative comment on this channel (7mm PRC vs. 7mm rem mag and the 30-30 video). If it is so cringe, why not watch something else?
What effect would carbon wrapping a fluted barrel have? 1 following the contours of the fluting? 2 smothe like it wasnt fluted; 3 carbon douls fitted into the flutes then wraped smooth?
To compare the “stiffness” of two barrels ie their relative strength or resistance to bending or twisting about an axis all you have to do is calculate the moment of inertia of the cross section of each barrel. The larger the moment of inertia the stiffer the barrel. This is a simple matter for structural and mechanical engineers, however if the shape is complex, software is required to do it quickly.
Question on the double spiral fluting. I always believed the continuous larger diameter “splines” as Matt called them running the entire length is what added the extra rigidity. If that in the case, wouldn’t the double spiral at least partially negate this benefit?
If anyone is interested in the actual science of this look into solid mechanics look up mass momment of inertia, and basic heat transfer mechincs and you will understand the advantage of fluting.
It comes down to second moment of area of the barrel profile. A fluted barrel will be more ridged for a given amount of material then a none fluted barrel.
First, I will definitely take the 4 ounces. Second, I’ve always thought there might be some extra rigidity from the ridges between the flutes functioning somewhat like the “web” in an I-beam. Finally, doesn’t the added surface area help the barrel to cool faster?
Cooling is a double edged sword. Flutes increase the surface area - more surface area to dissipate heat means faster cooldown. But, flutes reduce mass - meaning there is less mass to absorb the heat - these the barrel heats up faster. Whether or not it’s a wash at the end of the day…I’d say that takes some testing.
I venture a guess that his previous barrel employers were Krieger and Bartlein. I'm currently having a 22'' Bartlein SS barrel chambered in 6 ARC for an AR15 build. I'm not having any extra external surface machining done to my barrel. Fluting looks nice, but there are POI issues with it as the barrel heats up. On edit: I listened to this podcast on my phone. I came here to post my commit.
I've shot many O of a minute angle varmit with a fluted barrel. In the early 1990's my smith saved weight else where for my BR fifles. I did not question him but was an Okay Group shooter and BR50 Rf guy , of course the wife beat me with the same stuff lol. I was told flutes increase surface area for cooling and maybe rigidded .... again the smith did not flut our BR guns so IDK
I don’t understand how a spiral fluted barrel would retain the relative stiffness of a thicker barrel since the fluting is repeatedly transversing the longitudinal path of the barrel. Now, flutes that run the length of the barrel that don’t transverse the barrel (just simple straight fluting) make sense that they would reduce weight without significantly decreasing stiffness. Similar to a piece of angle iron as referenced in the video. Spiral fluting doesn’t make sense strength and stiffness wise though, which is why you don’t see spiral structural components in building or other engineered projects. I’m not talking about the total form of the project, just a monolithic piece of metal. That’s why angle iron and I-beams are used when you need excellent strength but less weight.
Which is why spiral fluting doesn’t make sense to me. Simple straight fluting that runs with the barrel makes sense (angle iron or I-beam type example), but I cannot see how spiral fluting would give a barrel a relative stiffness similar to a thicker barrel.
Spiral fluting makes sense. Reasearch moment of inertia its a little hard to grasp if its your first time but khan academy will explain it. From there you need to understand basics of mechanics of materials which has the equations for deflection.
@@Freedom_35 I don’t think it does. Not relative to a straight fluted barrel and with regard to limiting barrel whip. I get the point you’re making about angular momentum, but a spiral fluted barrel just woudn’t have the same structural strength to prevent whip as a straight fluted barrel. Obviously most of the benefits of a fluted barrel don’t ever manifest in real testing, but if we’re taking as fact that a fluted barrel would provide a “stiffer” barrel with less weight, then I think a straight fluted barrel makes more structural sense.
@jimyeats its not about angular momentum. it's about moment of inertia. I studied structural engineering. Barrel whip is deflection. A bodies moment of inertia plays a major role is a bodies ability to resist deflection. You would have to run the numbers to determine what is better because the fluting could be more agressive on one or the other. Really it probably doesnt matter as much as people think unless you are doing long range target work. I have pencil barrels that will shoot 5 shot moa groups. With that accuracy you can shoot big game at 1000 yards if it werent for wind and other field conditions. Unless your livelihood depends on accuracy, it probably doesn't matter. Get the penciliff you want to save weight. Get the fluting if you want to look cool.
@@Freedom_35 You’re saying that moment of inertia doesn’t have anything to do with angular momentum? Moment of inertia has everything to do with rotational momentum. Anyways. I agree that in reality fluting likely does nothing, but again, structurally, spiral fluting doesn’t make as much sense as straight fluting from a deflection/whip standpoint. Straight fluting would be more equivalent to having angle iron or T-beams running down the barrel at even intervals, hypothetically retaining stiffness while reducing weight. While spiral fluting wouldn’t add that as it’s not retaining continuity longitudinally.
I have several fluted rifles, no carbon fiber. Savage 22 mag that my wife claims because it’s pretty, my Weatherby 7 rem mag, and one of the AR15s with a 20” heavy barrel. Only fluted barrels I’ve used and all 3 are tack drivers, can’t go wrong with a better stiffness to weight ratio.
If I had my choice... I would take straight fluting over spiral fluting due to the dynamic effects of barrel harmonics... With my experience I have found spiral fluted barrels are really picky when it comes to ammo selection
Bs on fluting being useful, overall. The amount of weight loss is in no way appreciable to the amount of surface area gained that is prone to heat distortion and rust inclusion sites.
I tried a deresonator and my rifle shot crappy. Took it off and left just the muzzle brake and it shot well. So, in a sense, the weight is doing something. Then, again, an unfloated barrel acts different than free-floated. As for tuners, Hornady podcast did an episode that hurt a lot of feelings. Yes, installing a tuner helps with groups but as much as having a brake or suppressor on there. That is, the weight helps but they could not find enough difference in tuner settings.
11:37 Ryan nailed it. Its the sum of all the parts. I wanted a lightweight AR in 300blk that could be carried in a backpack. I went with a 7 inch barrel that had a fairly thick profile the barrel maker got it down from 16oz to under 13oz. The receiver set was 4oz or more, lighter than a typical set. I spent $200 on pins and parts to save an ounce. The 300blk pistol itself is 3lbs, less than 4lbs with a micro prism and brace. There are still more ways to lighten it up but you have ro decide on quality vs cutting corners.
I’m not sure if everyone saw it but backfire tested whether or not you need to have a clean barrel with copper. His test yielded that you do. But I would like to see somebody test multiple rounds with the copper barrel because it appeared the group got wider the dirtier it got
I have a fluted takeoff Obermeyer stainless target barrel tapering from 1.25" to 1" that I got years ago for a project that never happened. It is in 308, if it matters. I had access to industrial lathes and mills at the time, but don't now. Would a typical gunsmith be able to turn this monster down to a more normal mid-weight contour, or is it a lost cause? Thanks
It can be done but contouring an already chambered barrel can be risky. Removing that much material could change some interior dimensions. With that being said I've totally done it before but always relap and recrown and sometimes cut the chamber off and start over.
@@matthewpederson7869 Thanks. I was planning to rechamber anyways. At this point, I just wondered if it might be useful to anyone. When I wanted to use it a few years ago, the guy I was using had a light-duty lathe and was afraid the chatter might damage his equipment. It was originally on a Model 70-style action and I don't have one, so there was really no clear plan for a relatively simple job. I had even thought about putting it on a Ishapore 2A1 action, which were plentiful 20 years ago when I bought the barrel, just because I like the feel of Lee Enfields. Buying this barrel was one of those classic, "it seemed like a good idea at the time" silly projects.😀
This guy may do some good work but he is clearly not an expert. Earlier in the podcast he says removing material makes a barrel stiffer then later says you are making it less stiff when you remove material. Then can't back up any of his claims of stiffness of fluted barrels and mumbles through the answers to questions posed to him.
I don’t think he was saying that fluting increases a barrel’s stiffness but that a fluted barrel is stiffer than a non-fluted barrel *of the same weight*
Would be great to do a 10 min podcast on different barrel profiles
Including industry standards, or the lack thereof.
I second this
I read a study from Accuracy International where they tried fluting barrels for a while. What they found was that a fluted barrel, no matter how you did the fluting, always walked off target more with heat than a non fluted barrel. That's why Accuracy International will not flute a barrel on one of their guns. For hunting guns, that's probably okay, with maybe 3 or 4 shots at a time. Combat sniper rifles have to be reliable and accurate over an extended string of fire.
I remember that as well. AI eventually gave in and fluted their barrels to meet the weight requirement on a military acquisition. They didn't want to, but they had to meet weight requirements. The increased shot dispersion at long range has to do with the flute machining, barrel material grain structure and hardness. The grain structure and hardness change along the length of the barrel, and thus act differently during long shot strings. Combine this with the flutes, which no matter how precisely they're done, are minutely different in dimension. These all combine to cause the barrel to flex/expand under heat differently, causing more dispersion at long range. Fluting simply adds another avenue for dispersion to enter the equation.
Fluting also DOES NOT increase rigidity, deflection tests on the same barrel before and after fluting show DECREASES rigidity. The dame barrel after fluting will be slightly more rigid than a non fluted barrel of the same weight.
Fluting is great for weight reduction in heavy rifles if you combine it with other weight reducing measures. I have a Remington 700 Police Tactical rifle in .300WM that has a heavy contour barrel. I sent the barrel off to be deeply spiral fluted after having it shortened from 26" to 22" and threaded by a local gunsmith. I also went to a lighter scope and scope bases/rings and managed to shave about two pounds off the rifle. That transformed a rifle what was really better suited to a bench rest to a rifle that was now manageable in the field from about 12 lbs to 10 lbs. The only thing I really had to do is rework my handloads for the rifle for the new barrel harmonics. The rifle still shoots sub-MOA.
Putting a carbon barrel on a classic rifle is like putting rims with spinners like you'd put on a flashy Escalade onto a Jeep with a 6" lift...
You can take a number 4 contour, make it the weight of a number 3 but the stiffness of a 3 1/2. It's like what you loose in weight from fluting, you only loose a portion of that in rigidity.
King of the Hill
great video!! By the way when are you guys going to finish out the Bitch Cat Wildcat project?
The main contributor to barrel stiffness and cooling resulting from fluting is the flutes create create more barrel surface area per any given barrel diameter. That’s the science behind fluting.
I'll go out on a limb & say it's all mostly to get more money out of your wallet. If professional shooters are not using any of these add-ons why would we need them. I saw Erik Cortina's guns lined up in a video & he uses heavy long stainless barrels with a tuner break. The pro guys using 22"S don't use any of this either do they ? Maybe carbon barrels are an advantage for professional animal controllers who shoot pretty quick on mobs of pigs, but mostly i think for the average hunter it's just the cool factor.
Flute will likely open up the bore dia its not smart to afermarket flute a barrel that wasnt already from the original maker. Thats a known fact !
FWIW: I bought a new Winchester M70 (30/06)-(long ago). The shots would string vertically with every load & every bullet type & weight.
Had the barrel pulled & cryo freeze treated. Did it make a bad barrel good? No. But it stopped the stringing. All shots stayed within a baseball/softball grouping - even at 300 meters.
Made the rifle usable for hunting, but the barrel had been straightened at the factory, and stresses induced, which manifested under heat (IMO)...it needed a new barrel-right out of the factory.
The moral of the story, good barrel steel properly heat treated & machined all matter. At every step, garbage in, garbage out.
Mark is just getting annoying these days.
You’re just a hater. This is your third negative comment on this channel (7mm PRC vs. 7mm rem mag and the 30-30 video). If it is so cringe, why not watch something else?
For the added cost of fluting, I don't see the advantage.
Sure it looks cool but I just don't see any advantage in accuracy.
What effect would carbon wrapping a fluted barrel have?
1 following the contours of the fluting?
2 smothe like it wasnt fluted;
3 carbon douls fitted into the flutes then wraped smooth?
I wonder how I “magically” got unsubscribed from this podcast, Hornady Podcast, and Texas Predator Hunting podcast? All at the same time.
Strange things are going on with YT and guntube content right now.
That red, white,and blue my mind
To compare the “stiffness” of two barrels ie their relative strength or resistance to bending or twisting about an axis all you have to do is calculate the moment of inertia of the cross section of each barrel. The larger the moment of inertia the stiffer the barrel.
This is a simple matter for structural and mechanical engineers, however if the shape is complex, software is required to do it quickly.
Question on the double spiral fluting. I always believed the continuous larger diameter “splines” as Matt called them running the entire length is what added the extra rigidity. If that in the case, wouldn’t the double spiral at least partially negate this benefit?
From an engineering perspective, it makes no sense.
It certainly let's the bbl. Cool down quicker .
Hell yeah, my local guy Matt is famous! Probably gonna have to raise prices on me now..
If anyone is interested in the actual science of this look into solid mechanics look up mass momment of inertia, and basic heat transfer mechincs and you will understand the advantage of fluting.
This guy is a pleasure to listen to.
It comes down to second moment of area of the barrel profile. A fluted barrel will be more ridged for a given amount of material then a none fluted barrel.
fluting just looks badass.... and therefore is a good thing.
Is there such an animal as "functional spiral fluting"?
King of the Hill and it's not even close
First, I will definitely take the 4 ounces. Second, I’ve always thought there might be some extra rigidity from the ridges between the flutes functioning somewhat like the “web” in an I-beam. Finally, doesn’t the added surface area help the barrel to cool faster?
I would say definitely yes.
Cooling is a double edged sword. Flutes increase the surface area - more surface area to dissipate heat means faster cooldown.
But, flutes reduce mass - meaning there is less mass to absorb the heat - these the barrel heats up faster.
Whether or not it’s a wash at the end of the day…I’d say that takes some testing.
To flute or not to flute....THAT is the question...
Neither, keep your silly cartoons!
I venture a guess that his previous barrel employers were Krieger and Bartlein. I'm currently having a 22'' Bartlein SS barrel chambered in 6 ARC for an AR15 build. I'm not having any extra external surface machining done to my barrel. Fluting looks nice, but there are POI issues with it as the barrel heats up. On edit: I listened to this podcast on my phone. I came here to post my commit.
While talking 300WSM, we need a 10 min, by that I mean 80 min, talk on the Sherman Short family of cartridges: 6.5, 270, 7, 300, 338.
I've shot many O of a minute angle varmit with a fluted barrel. In the early 1990's my smith saved weight else where for my BR fifles. I did not question him but was an Okay Group shooter and BR50 Rf guy , of course the wife beat me with the same stuff lol. I was told flutes increase surface area for cooling and maybe rigidded .... again the smith did not flut our BR guns so IDK
I don’t understand how a spiral fluted barrel would retain the relative stiffness of a thicker barrel since the fluting is repeatedly transversing the longitudinal path of the barrel.
Now, flutes that run the length of the barrel that don’t transverse the barrel (just simple straight fluting) make sense that they would reduce weight without significantly decreasing stiffness. Similar to a piece of angle iron as referenced in the video.
Spiral fluting doesn’t make sense strength and stiffness wise though, which is why you don’t see spiral structural components in building or other engineered projects. I’m not talking about the total form of the project, just a monolithic piece of metal. That’s why angle iron and I-beams are used when you need excellent strength but less weight.
Look up Moment of Inertia. This explains it all. Steel I beams utilities the same principle.
Which is why spiral fluting doesn’t make sense to me. Simple straight fluting that runs with the barrel makes sense (angle iron or I-beam type example), but I cannot see how spiral fluting would give a barrel a relative stiffness similar to a thicker barrel.
Spiral fluting makes sense. Reasearch moment of inertia its a little hard to grasp if its your first time but khan academy will explain it. From there you need to understand basics of mechanics of materials which has the equations for deflection.
@@Freedom_35 I don’t think it does. Not relative to a straight fluted barrel and with regard to limiting barrel whip. I get the point you’re making about angular momentum, but a spiral fluted barrel just woudn’t have the same structural strength to prevent whip as a straight fluted barrel. Obviously most of the benefits of a fluted barrel don’t ever manifest in real testing, but if we’re taking as fact that a fluted barrel would provide a “stiffer” barrel with less weight, then I think a straight fluted barrel makes more structural sense.
@jimyeats its not about angular momentum. it's about moment of inertia. I studied structural engineering. Barrel whip is deflection. A bodies moment of inertia plays a major role is a bodies ability to resist deflection. You would have to run the numbers to determine what is better because the fluting could be more agressive on one or the other. Really it probably doesnt matter as much as people think unless you are doing long range target work. I have pencil barrels that will shoot 5 shot moa groups. With that accuracy you can shoot big game at 1000 yards if it werent for wind and other field conditions. Unless your livelihood depends on accuracy, it probably doesn't matter. Get the penciliff you want to save weight. Get the fluting if you want to look cool.
@@Freedom_35 You’re saying that moment of inertia doesn’t have anything to do with angular momentum? Moment of inertia has everything to do with rotational momentum.
Anyways. I agree that in reality fluting likely does nothing, but again, structurally, spiral fluting doesn’t make as much sense as straight fluting from a deflection/whip standpoint. Straight fluting would be more equivalent to having angle iron or T-beams running down the barrel at even intervals, hypothetically retaining stiffness while reducing weight. While spiral fluting wouldn’t add that as it’s not retaining continuity longitudinally.
I like fluted barrels for looks like on my 340 weatherby magnum speaking of on the next 10 minute talk the 340 weatherby magnum
I have several fluted rifles, no carbon fiber. Savage 22 mag that my wife claims because it’s pretty, my Weatherby 7 rem mag, and one of the AR15s with a 20” heavy barrel. Only fluted barrels I’ve used and all 3 are tack drivers, can’t go wrong with a better stiffness to weight ratio.
If I had my choice... I would take straight fluting over spiral fluting due to the dynamic effects of barrel harmonics... With my experience I have found spiral fluted barrels are really picky when it comes to ammo selection
Bs on fluting being useful, overall. The amount of weight loss is in no way appreciable to the amount of surface area gained that is prone to heat distortion and rust inclusion sites.
I tried a deresonator and my rifle shot crappy. Took it off and left just the muzzle brake and it shot well. So, in a sense, the weight is doing something. Then, again, an unfloated barrel acts different than free-floated.
As for tuners, Hornady podcast did an episode that hurt a lot of feelings. Yes, installing a tuner helps with groups but as much as having a brake or suppressor on there. That is, the weight helps but they could not find enough difference in tuner settings.
More surface area for cooling, less weight. But less tuning and flex.
11:37 Ryan nailed it. Its the sum of all the parts. I wanted a lightweight AR in 300blk that could be carried in a backpack. I went with a 7 inch barrel that had a fairly thick profile the barrel maker got it down from 16oz to under 13oz. The receiver set was 4oz or more, lighter than a typical set. I spent $200 on pins and parts to save an ounce. The 300blk pistol itself is 3lbs, less than 4lbs with a micro prism and brace. There are still more ways to lighten it up but you have ro decide on quality vs cutting corners.
Can't you check the deflection of a barrel? Hang a weight off of the barrel and indicate before the weight and after fluting.
I’m not sure if everyone saw it but backfire tested whether or not you need to have a clean barrel with copper. His test yielded that you do. But I would like to see somebody test multiple rounds with the copper barrel because it appeared the group got wider the dirtier it got
I have wondered if the fluting needed to go opposite direction of rifling
Excellent podcast yet again fellas. Keep it up!! Thanks
I'm going with King of the hill over family guy
I like fluted barrels just for the looks
And the added surface area cools faster
You guys ever hear of a swamped barrel ?
I could go for some flautas…
I have a fluted takeoff Obermeyer stainless target barrel tapering from 1.25" to 1" that I got years ago for a project that never happened. It is in 308, if it matters. I had access to industrial lathes and mills at the time, but don't now. Would a typical gunsmith be able to turn this monster down to a more normal mid-weight contour, or is it a lost cause?
Thanks
It can be done but contouring an already chambered barrel can be risky. Removing that much material could change some interior dimensions. With that being said I've totally done it before but always relap and recrown and sometimes cut the chamber off and start over.
@@matthewpederson7869 Thanks. I was planning to rechamber anyways. At this point, I just wondered if it might be useful to anyone. When I wanted to use it a few years ago, the guy I was using had a light-duty lathe and was afraid the chatter might damage his equipment.
It was originally on a Model 70-style action and I don't have one, so there was really no clear plan for a relatively simple job. I had even thought about putting it on a Ishapore 2A1 action, which were plentiful 20 years ago when I bought the barrel, just because I like the feel of Lee Enfields.
Buying this barrel was one of those classic, "it seemed like a good idea at the time" silly projects.😀
The best show of all .
Do a shot every time Mark says "sure". Who's in?
I'm in - Mark B.
Activating the algo
Family Guy 💯
Interesting
Little known fact - the original name for this process was "ribbing" but for, well, obvious reasons it was changed.
Family guy… easy.
Fluting appears to be a crap shot at accuracy in order to create a cosmetic appeal. Think I'll pass. Thanks for pulling this together..
Fluting is dumb
This guy may do some good work but he is clearly not an expert. Earlier in the podcast he says removing material makes a barrel stiffer then later says you are making it less stiff when you remove material. Then can't back up any of his claims of stiffness of fluted barrels and mumbles through the answers to questions posed to him.
I don’t think he was saying that fluting increases a barrel’s stiffness but that a fluted barrel is stiffer than a non-fluted barrel *of the same weight*