The revo 12.4 with (triangle) tip has deferent deflection from the revo 12.4 regular tip. Can you make a video to see if a hard tip or soft tip can make more deflection or less deflection
@@charliestsaousis5597 See the “Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?” section at the bottom of the page here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Great video Dr Dave! It would be nice to compare cheap carbon (ie : rhino) vs predator & cuetec carbon shafts. Im curious to see if it really worth 3 times the price to buy a Revo.
@@lacc01 Thanks. I agree. Anybody could easily do this using the procedure in the video. But even is the CB deflection were different, it doesn't mean it is better or worse for a given player, per the info and advice here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
@@mattevans1643 Snooker balls are smaller righht? It would make sense the tips they use are smaller between 10.5 and 11.8 instead of 12.5 to 13mm more common in pool.
nice to see how many factors really play a role in playing pool. it is a science for it self. very nice that you take the time and efford to make such videos.
As long as you know how your cue plays that’s all that matters. Reyes could beat you to death with a broom handle. As long as your cue is straight and has a good tip on it the rest is just personal. If the cue makers told you there wasn’t any difference in the shafts you wouldn’t buy any new ones and they wouldn’t make any money.
While this explained alot, on understanding what Deflection is,..... I am kinda NEW to the sport, (played back in 77-78 while in the USA Navy.) I understood using English, YET, no idea that the Shaft was a big part of it.... only that it was how we placed the tip on the ball..... SO,... Now I am wondering, would I want a high, or Low deflection shaft? (until last month, I only used "house" stick at Am-Vets etc....
Hi. Dr. Dave im a beginner in pool. And i have some question. What weight you recomend me for a pool stick, and diameter. And i have sweety hands what kind of grip you recomend me. Best regards Juan.
Thanks. I honestly think anybody can get good results if they follow the procedure and advice on the video, regardless of how good or bad their stroke is. It just might take longer with a bad stroke.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for the reply. I wonder mostly about the suitability of a Revo when it comes to do carom type hardcore massés and piqués. I dont see how it could be a problem since there are no ferrules on Revos. Low Deflection shafts that have ferrules are at risk of breaking with massés. Also the 11.8mm type is quite big for carom, even for 3-cushions.
Sorry, but I don't plan to test more shafts. The purpose for the video was to show how anybody can easily and accurately test shafts on their own (using the procedure in the video).
@DrDaveBilliards sure ...but ibfeel like kielwood has lower deflection than all the shafts you tried... you should definitely try it out , I've done the test , and the kielwood hits dead center almost ....about every time
Ain’t nobody got time for that. :) Actually, I have done tests with different tips before and didn’t find much difference. See the links and info at the bottom of the page here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Great comparison Dr dave, the triangle revo is definitely trimmed smaller than the other 12.4 and looks even small compared to the 11.8 so no wonder it had lower deflection. I have tested a 12.5 cf shaft for around 3 hours then trimmed the tip to around 11.7 and the deflection went down a fair noticeable amount
@@iimiboy See the squirt-related tip size and hardness info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/ The effects aren’t as “obvious” as they might seem.
@@DrDaveBilliards oh I've watched all your videos of course. Even a few mm is a lot to me but also smaller length on a tip makes a difference I've found which I'm sure I first learnt from one of your old vids
In general, a thinner shaft will have less “endmass,” which create less CB deflection. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/cause/
Dr. Dave, I love all your videos and you are a true treasure for the pool community. I hope I meet you one day. Will you be reviewing different carbon fiber shafts from different brands. I am really curious about Whyte Carbon Wood Grain shaft as it seems that's the only shaft in the market which looks like wood. I have been using revo 12.4 carbon fiber for 5 months and I am still not thrilled about the black color and the metalic noise when I hit the ball with a stroke.
I don't have plans to do any more review or testing videos. Everything I've done to date can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/published-data/
@@DrDaveBilliards thank you for the response Dr Dave. It looks like Whyte carbon is pretty good as well. I am used to playing with Revo but the sound is driving me crazy.
Hi dr Dave! If the tips are shaped to the same radius, how does the tip diameter affect the spin or deflection on a shot? I can’t really find any videos on just tip diameter
It looks like the harder tip has less deflection. Ive always heard you say in the past there is no effect. Its almost a 1/4" it looks like at high speed. I would say that is about right. I use the 12.4 Revo sometimes and like the way it plays with a Zan grip hard but for soft shots it just can miscue to often. I am back to using Kamui soft of zan hybrid max now.
If say using the deflection test a cue shaft is found to deflect 2 inches over the length of the table and has a NPL of 20 inches from the tip , would you expect a differnt cue shaft (with same tip hardness/thickness ) whose deflection is 3 inches over the length of the table (50 % more ) to have a NPL tha is 50% shorter or around 13.33 inches ? Also it is said that shaft end weight determines deflection (for the most part ) has there been any study as to what length matters meaning for example the shaft end weight that matters for deflection is only the first 6 inches of the shaft and beyond 6 inches any added or reduced weight from the shaft would not have any noticable effect on a shaft's deflection. Thank you
Yes. The natural pivot length should vary in proportion to the amount of CB deflection. For info on how endmass affect CB deflection (and how distance from the tip factors in), see the explanations and article links here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass/
Dr.Dave I’m really getting some very good numbers on this cue of mine. At the table we put a golf tee on the rail and took the cue ball back behind the line. added 1 full tip of left english and stroke the ball very firm. It turns out my friend filmed the shot and the cue only deflexed the width of a piece of shock chalk. This is the same cue that has 2 marks on the shaft. One mark for 3 or 4foot shots and the other mark is for any length longer than 4ft the first mark measures 9 1/2 inches for the short shots and the other measures 12 1/4 inches this is really cool no need for all the calibrated numbers for multiple shot Lenghths.
I started to watch this but with all of the shafts being of different diameters and having different tips and without a machine delivering a consistent stroke I don't see how this can be an accurate test. Every test comes out objective to personal opinion. I've been trying to find information on how carbon shafts are made and why some are, by opinion, better than others. Any suggestions would be appreciated. But thanks for your hard work.
With the carefully designed procedure described in the video, human testing can give excellent results, even if one's stroke is not perfectly consistent. FYI, machine testing is not always as good as some people think. See: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/robot-test-results/ especially the "Rules for CB Deflection (Squirt) Testing" section.
@DrDaveBilliards It seems to work better for me and allows more precise control. Perhaps it's more of a personal preference. But it does make a difference for me.
I wouldn’t expect any meaningful difference. If you or others wanted to test this, you could use the procedure in the videos in the “Can a softer tip put more spin on the ball?” Section here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/ For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
I shoot regular pool with a 10m tip snooker Q. I don't get squirt.. I did with preditor tho. I can't stand squirter. Also I don't need to go out to the red line for the same spin. I feel I can achieve same spin same hit say for nothing but right hand English I feel I don't have to as far right like I do with a bigger mil tip. I also use a dime radio's. Because of the small tip I use a super hard tip.
Every cue (even 10mm) creates squirt; although, some create much less than others. But you still need to be able to compensate for swerve (and squirt) effects over a wide range of shots.
has anyone experimented with uneven lengths of cue shaft vrs butt section. would a longer butt and shorter shaft tend to lessen deflection? i would think a shorter shaft would result in less vibration but perhaps have more or less deflection. as a tall player i often use an extension, sometimes on the butt, other times in the middle. i pose this question as dr dave usually produce videos with a more detailed technical explanation
The causes for CB deflection and techniques for reducing it can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/cause/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/ Enjoy!
I would enjoy seeing more shaft comparisons. Jacoby, Cuetec, McDermott, etc. Though I know some people tend to refrain from "stirring the pot" when it comes to brand "Fan boys" or even upsetting manufacturers. (Even though they all claim to be the best.)
How about no shaft comparisons pick-your-own what you feel what you like what is comfortable to you. I still play with maple even though a friend gave me a carbon fiber shaft because he didn't like it I played with it quite a bit and I just go back to my maple.
Hi, I have one question: Why the cue tip on carbon cues are usually with less carve on the top of cue? I mean its like more flatter. Is this something that have sense to be like this, or is just preference?
Carbon fiber (CF) jump and break cues usually have a flatter tip (for less unintentional sidespin), but this is not the case for CF playing cues. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
I wonder where the Revo 3C-U shaft stands even though it’s meant for Carom. Predator says “most precise & most accurate shaft in the world” Has 4 shaft weight options. It’s 27.25” but if its deflection is lower than a regular 11.8 can get a 2” extension to make up for it.
Thanks for these videos, very informative. I have a spare maple cue shaft lying around and was wondering if you had a video or could do one where you taper the last 6 inches and shorten the ferrule and do the test on that?
I honestly don't have interest in doing such a test, but you could. The testing procedure in the video is easy for anybody to do. Reducing the endmass will certainly reduce the amount of CB deflection per the info and other tests done (as documented in the linked articles) here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass Good luck, and have fun!
Hello. I have been playing for a few months now. My question is how important is your cue? I have a pretty cheap felt tip que. In all of these videos, he is adding so much spin to the cue ball and getting to move all over the place after the shot. If I try to hit the cue ball anywhere far off the center of the ball it squirts straight left. Should focus on my accuracy or should I get a better que? Thanks.
As long as the tip holds chalk, the cue really doesn’t matter much, per the info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/selecting/ If you want help with technique, here’s a good place to start: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/fundamentals/ And if you want to learn how to get maximum backspin for draw shots, see the videos and info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/draw/advice-and-drills/
Dr. Dave, I know you have shown many times over how tip hardness has no meaningful effect on English. Does the same hold true in terms of deflection? What do you think would result in playing the same shaft with varying tips?
The answer is not so simple. See the "Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?" section at the bottom of the page here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
The main purpose of the video was to show how easy it is to do tests like this so others can test whatever they want on their own. I just tested the stuff I had available as examples. More tests and data can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/published-data/ and here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
Guys I appreciate your efforts but all these tests of shafts while you just playing from your hand is meaningless on my opinion. No man on this planet can't hit the ball 2 times in a row 100% same and if we know that we also know that final results may vary a LOT. So, where is true purpose of this? Instead of trying to play with millimeters I think that is more useful for all to give us your honest opinion about every shaft you use. Playing actions, feedback, front weight, deflection, overall feel in your hand. Thanks and good luck.
Watch the entire video again. I explain how testing with a human instead of a machine can give good results. You are correct that it is nearly impossible to get the exact same hit 2 times in a row, but that is not required with appropriate testing procedures, as explained in the video. Concerning machine testing, even more care is required. See the “Rules for CB Deflection (Squirt) Testing” section here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/robot-test-results/ Concerning “playing action, feedback, front weight, and feel,” I honestly don’t place much importance in these things since any good player can easily adjust to any differences in these things. All I care about is where the CB goes. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/feel/
I haven’t tried one yet, but I can’t imagine being convinced to switch back from carbon fiber due to its advantages: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
Is the butt end of the cue marker on the rail offset from the table center line the same amount as the cue tip is offset from the cue ball center and table centerline?
Yes. The line of aim of the cue is perfectly parallel to the center-ball line of aim. Although, it doesn't really matter. The differences among the shafts is what is important (regardless of the aim, assuming the aim is consistent, which is the case in the video). Now concerning aiming when playing, I use SAWS: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
I don’t plan to do any more testing in the foreseeable future, but anybody can easily do tests and comparisons on their own using the simple procedure in the video.
@@DrDaveBilliards I’m still anxiously awaiting my Hsunami 2.0 shaft to arrive. Supposed to take 14-16 weeks for delivery. Today makes 16 weeks. Fingers crossed for this week
I’m thinking about a predator revo this Christmas since predator is one of my dream cues I been eyeing up a Meucci pro and McDermott g core that have designs I like too
@@DrDaveBilliards I been trying hopefully it happens I been pretty dominated for only playing for a year and hold the speed ball record where I play league night for and reached a 4-0 before finally getting beat by scratch on 8
MERRY XMAS TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY SIR. I would appreciate your opinion, its been nearly 10 years since predator popularized the carbon fiber shaft with no ferrule to get the front end weight down to lower deflection to where the pivoit point tas low as 19 inches or so on the REVO compared to the original wood 314 shaft of around 12 ". Is there any other material cue makers can go with for the shaft to go even lighter than carbon fiber that can maintain a smooth bridging surface ? If not then i will be all about lesser more conical taper then coz you already took out the ferrule , only shaft meteiral and taper can be worked on right ? Do you think there is any new shaft material to expect in the next 2 yrs to rival carbon fiber for deflection ? Thanks a lot.Sir
Carbon fiber is tough to beat. About all they can do to reduce CB deflection further is reduce the diameter and wall thickness near the tip, but there is a trade-off with strength.
@@DrDaveBilliards I think the wall thickness reduction you say is the way to go wifth Since its stiffer that wood , further thinning the wall could make the shaft flex closer to a wood shaft . Its stiffness seem to be one reason wood purist dont like it. Another is Im not sure but maybe thining the wall further will make the sound of the hit better Right now they come with soft tips , most like playing with medium tips but a medium tip on a revo does not sound good another reason some dont like it. Thinning the wall may mean you can do away with that silencer pad which is turnoff for people who change their own tips without s latte. Here in the Philppines majority change their tips manually . So thinning the wall alleviate to a certain extent 2 things people dont like about it that could change their minds to buying one increasing sales. The tip diameter i think the limits are there conical is not comfortable with a closed bridge which many use. and unless you are a good player with a good stroke its tougher to hit the cb and not get uninteded side spin. Thank you
Nice scientific like testing. Thanks for a very good video, I'm playing in my first ever league. I'm a pretty good player, I'd say a bit above average. Can you recommend a good cue up to a 400-500 cost, preferably with an extension? Thanks
I want to compare my shaft to the ones you tested. I don’t have an elephant cue ball. I do however have a Jim Rempe practice ball. Do you know what amount of spin would be comparable? For example ring 4 on a Jim Rempe ball.
I tested Revos because that is what I have, but the player is much more important than the cue. With SAWS, I can honestly play at the same level with any cue (after about 20 minutes of recalibration).
Also, the main purpose of the video was to show how easy it is to do tests like this so others can test whatever they want on their own. So test whatever you want to test. The procedure in the video is easy and gives reliable results (regardless of the shooter).
Interesting video! :) Just curious, where are you aiming for each of these shots? Are you continuing to aim at the first mark (and therefore aiming more across the shot as you go further out to the edge of the cue ball) or are you parallel shifting your target?
It's nice to see proper methodical testing of this, and to find out that it jibes with my own experience. The popular narrative is that the revos deflect less than anything, but I was pretty sure that a 12.4 Revo was not deflecting less than a Z3 or OB Pro plus, and might be deflecting a bit more. One thing, do people use deflection as the net of squirt plus swerve? I've always used it just as just a less grody synonym for squirt. I thought that's how everyone defined it.
People mean different things by "CB deflection." Concerning playing, they usually mean how far the CB would miss your target if you don't compensate your aim (for the combined effects of squirt and swerve). But an LD shaft creates less CB deflection (or squirt) off the tip.
@@DrDaveBilliards I'm probably just being lazy but do you have a breakdown somewhere of how much swerve you get over different distances in inches? I know it varies with individual differences in elevation and cloth conditions but I'm wondering roughly speaking what percentage of deflection is Squirt versus swerve. In my head it's 90% squirt but swerve probably plays more of a role than I think.
For fast speed shots, squirt is the dominant. At slower speeds, swerve reduces the CB deflection more. And swerve varies dramatically with cue elevation. And everything changes with distance. For more info and videos on this topic, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
Hey Dave, a bit of an aside, but I just stumbled upon your article on parallax error and in particular your refence to parallax error caused by focal distance when your head is not square on properly. I was trying to find information on this and didn't even know what to search for and ended up asking Chat-GPT which told me the terminology to look for. Thanks Dave and Chat-GPT!!
@@DrDaveBilliards Dave I was wondering if you could help me with another unrelated question? I've noticed for several years now, I have a problem where, I'll get down to do a straight shot (or any shot) and the cue ball and object ball will be aligned properly in my vision, but then I'll take the shot and miss and the reason is because my cue was not pointing exactly where I thought it was prior to the shot. In other words, my body/head alignment and cue alignment are out of sync with each other causing me to shoot across the ball. I can somewhat correct this by concentrating really hard on putting my cue on the correct line before getting down, but if it's even slightly off, then I often find it very difficult to see that it's off once I'm down on the shot, unless I stare at my bridge hand and really examine the slope of my cue. I have a friend who uses this weird method where he rotates the cue in order to more easily see which way it is pointing. Is it the case that with the pros their body/head and cue are always perfectly synced? so that when their visual alignment is correct their cue is also pointing in exactly the right direction?
@@dhirajpallin2572 Pro players always have their personal "vision center" aligned with the shot line. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/eyes/vision-center/
What are the physics of deflection as they relate to speed? I would think a slower speed would create more deflection because the tip would have more time to bounce back into the ball. I know it doesn't work this way, but it seems backwards. Maybe a faster speed tip has more energy (mass) so the ball is deflected more? Your thought?
@@DrDaveBilliards OK, after reading the material, I want to believe deflection is the same at all speeds and the only difference is swerve. However, at a certain speed swerve has very little effect. I think the slow speed you used in this test would have very little swerve at the distance you were measuring deflection. In some cases, it was an inch difference depending on speed. In my own experience, deflection is much larger with faster stroke. Maybe you can show a curved path at the slow speed you tested here? Thanks for all the information you share.
@@jeffren70 CB deflection (the net effect of squirt and swerve) is definitely larger at faster speed, per the explanations and demonstrations at the links.
Good to know I have the lowest deflection shaft… I got it as somewhat of a newbie and thought initially that the 11.8 diameter was a mistake. I’ve since changed my mind.
Regardless of the amount of CB deflection, you still need to know to aim differently for shots with different amounts of spin, speeds, and distances. FYI, LD shafts have both advantages and disadvantages per the info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
You basically can't know the real truth about deflection on test "from hand" like this one. There is NO WAY that anyone can repeat 100% the same hit 2 times in a row. No way.
When you watch the video, there is a much larger difference between the different diameters of carbon fiber shafts than the difference between the wooden and carbon fiber shaft (players cue aside) and I don’t think the results spreadsheet accurately reflects that fact. I don’t think you purposefully did that but it is worth mentioning. Also, in my opinion, the difference between one inch of deflection and 2 1/2 inches of deflection should not, in theory, necessarily improve one’s game since in both cases the deflection is still present and needs to be accounted for, which I think reaffirms the fact that it’s all about the player, not the equipment. Overall this video is quite useful, as always.
Shafts of different diameters can have the same CB deflection. Many things affect the "endmass" of the shaft. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/cause/ I'm not sure I understand your point about the difference shaft diameters.
@@DrDaveBilliards My point was just to describe my observations watching your video. I only briefly looked over that endmass link, but it seems like in the case of the revo, it is possible that larger shaft diameters indirectly cause more deflection (not saying that is true for all shafts). That said if the revo had the core drilled out, as described in the article, and the wall thickness was the same in all the shafts, as I seem to remember you mentioning in the video, that may not explain what I saw. But the amount of increased deflection I saw with larger revo shafts was significant, so do you know if it is possible for small differences in manufacturing to make that much of a difference?
@@rqlk The 11.8 and one of the 12.4 Revos had the same CB deflection. That shows that diameter is not the only factor. Although, it makes sense that the largest-diameter Revo had the largest CB deflection. For a larger diameter carbon fiber shaft to have less CB deflection, it would need to have a smaller wall thickness (which is possible).
@@DrDaveBilliards I must have misremembered, I rewatched the video and I see now 11.8 and 12.4 are the same. I also do see once again watching the videos of the shots that there isn’t any meaningful difference between the z3 and the smaller revo shafts. I also still think that the difference in deflection between the cues, again players cue aside, is negligible for the purpose of improving one’s game.
Arse! Why so sharp Dave? He was impressed but you ignored that part! He doesn’t want ego so no channel and he is doesn’t want to make money from pool!.. You do, so crack on.
Sir can you do a analysis shot and demonstration of one of Efren's best magic shot it's his match to a fellow asian man forgot his name where Efren use the corner of the side pocket so that he can pocketed the 1 ball on the corner pocket
@@DrDaveBilliards ive already watch this the one I'm saying is his match against to a fellow asian man if I'm not mistaken it's a Chinese guy but I'm not sure, it's an Asian cup not US on that match Efren use the corner tip rail of the side pocket to hit the ball 1 that is on the corner pocket where his opponent put the ball as his defensive play and Efren shoot it on that corner pocket
@@DrDaveBilliards sorry sir, just forget about it you already did it I already watch it of one of your clips maybe I just missed it, it is on the compilation of you doing his famous shots btw thanks for your time😁👍
Every time I see you shoot it reminds me of a guy I played pool with in college, even your mannerisms match lol. I think his name was Stephan, or Stephen. Personally, I've found that it really doesn't matter how much deflection you get but you need the deflection to be consistent. These tests are exactly what I do when getting a new cue, or replace a tip; then the results go into the little calculator in my head. I bet a large number of people that miss a lot of longer shots, when using any english, have never done this test.
Are phenolic tips vegan? I saw your podcast on Star Talk where you mentioned that leather tips are the best and we are in the ivory stage in pool tips.
Never held anything but a maple shaft. Where I live, I'd have to drive three hours to test drive one. It'd be damn interesting to see how they feel. Seems like the new standard today, using some sort of core material that's not maple.
Hey doc can you explain the shot of Karl Boyes against Skyler Woodward on the 2015 mosconi cup? When he puts the cueball beside the 2 ball and ref initially said it was a foul. Thanks Doc
@@ProudlyElongo Thanks. The ref did the right thing to reverse his call. It is not considered "using the ball to measure" if you are attempting to place the CB for a BIH position.
Great comparison as always! Very interesting how end mass affects the deflection, in my mind I had assumed that deflection was due to the shaft bending slightly, and therefore a larger, and more stiff shaft would deflect less than a slightly less rigid shaft. Love this kind of information!
@@DrDaveBilliards Ha, ha, no, I won't despair. I kind of like the refresher course in the Scientific Method. I always appreciate seeing it applied correctly, and effectively, and I believe you've done both. The bonus is that it applies to pool!
@@DrDaveBilliards I'm not sure if you'll see this comment, it's in a little late. You've said that you have no shortage of ideas for more videos, and I hesitate to ask this, because it would only add to that list, *BUT*... have you considered comparing (and contrasting) the differences between pool cues, and snooker cues, and why they differ? (Or, have you covered that already, in a video I've overlooked?)
@@kurtkensson2059 Sorry, but I don’t play snooker, nor do I have any snooker cues. But the differences are fairly obvious. Snooker cues are smaller diameter, due to the smaller balls. They are usually made of ash instead of maple or carbon fiber. They usually have a conical taper, partly to increase strength due to the smaller tip diameter. They have a small and thin brass ferrule, which helps limit CB deflection. I would expect snooker cues to have similar CB as LD pool cues, but I have not tested for this. But using the procedure in this video, anybody can easily test and compare any cues on their own.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thank you for your quick reply. I don't play snooker either, nor do I own any snooker cues. However, after watching your recent videos about tips, shafts, and deflection, and having been watching Stephen Hendry's channel, I began to wonder about the differences between pool cues, and snooker cues. I knew about _how_ they differed, and I started wondering about _why_ they did. Why use ash? Why use brass ferrules? Why does the shape of the butts differ? What led to the differences between them, and what inherent advantages/disadvantages are there to those differences? I know that this does fall outside of the topics you normally cover, and you already have a lot of material you'd like to cover in your future videos. I apologize if my asking distracted you from that. Thank you for continuing to educate the billiard community!
Hi Dave Keith again It's funny how each player has her own little nervous condition if you know what I mean. For example I went over a guy's house one time years ago, he was a good shooter. But every time I get up to shoot he's playing with the radio volume up and down up and down. It never ceases to amaze me how people don't want to give you any respect when you're shooting a shot or two or up at the table. Especially when you give them all the respect in the world and sit there and don't say or do anything Until it's your shot again. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
Thanks. The best advice for cues is: master what you have and “stick” with it. Too many people think constantly changing equipment will make them better. They are wrong. The player is much more important than the cue.
This should be really interesting. Sad OB isn't included. Hopefully another spliced shaft is represented. OB is the original spliced shaft and one of the first low deflection shafts. Originally Joss made their butts. Now they make their while cue.
@@DrDaveBilliards glad to see OB at the top of the list!! Predator seems to be king of low deflection but OB is right there. However, that was for the OB-1. I have an OB-2+. I originally had an OB-1 but I misplaced it. So the deflection on their newer shaft has to be right up there with those predators. I've never actually measured it but full length the deflection is barely noticeable when shooting diamond to diamond.
''OB is the original spliced shaft'' That is not true, italian company Longoni started making spliced/laminated shafts 50years ago, and they still make them., They also started to make carbon fiber shafts 40years ago back in the 80's. Americans just like to take the credit for other peoples innovations. :D predator also claims to be the first in everything but they made there first spliced shaft in 1994, so it cant be true, ob started in 2004 :D
![ผัวเถื่อน - ยูริ โตเกียวมิวสิค [ OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/P08ORRVDGl8/mqdefault.jpg)
*Content:*
0:00 - Intro
1:23 - Testing Procedure
3:34 - Tests
6:19 - Results
8:17 - Wrap Up
*Supporting Resources:*
- cues tested: 12.75mm Players, 11.9mm Predator Z3, 11.8mm Predator Revo, 12.4mm Predator Revo with a harder Triangle tip (not the standard ictory Soft), 12.4mm Revo, 12.9mm Revo
- past CF shaft testing videos: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
- squirt, swerve, and throw effects: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/
- how to aim when using sidespin: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/
- System for Aiming With Sidespin: drdavebilliards.com/videos/saws/
- previous shaft-testing videos and data: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/robot-test-results/
- cue tip size and shape effects: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
- cue tip hardness effects: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
- what causes CB deflection: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/cause/
rail ruler template: billiards.colostate.edu/resource_files/rail_ruler.pdf
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's TH-cam Channel:*
th-cam.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
The revo 12.4 with (triangle) tip has deferent deflection from the revo 12.4 regular tip.
Can you make a video to see if a hard tip or soft tip can make more deflection or less deflection
@@charliestsaousis5597 See the “Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?” section at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Great video Dr Dave! It would be nice to compare cheap carbon (ie : rhino) vs predator & cuetec carbon shafts. Im curious to see if it really worth 3 times the price to buy a Revo.
@@lacc01 Thanks. I agree. Anybody could easily do this using the procedure in the video. But even is the CB deflection were different, it doesn't mean it is better or worse for a given player, per the info and advice here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
Altough i'm a snooker player, i find your videos very educational and i thing a lot of your findings can be adapted to snooker pretty well.
Snooker physics and how the balls react is no different from pool.
It's basically the same, just different sized tips and balls. Oof... sounds kinda wierd. But it's the same physics.
@@mattevans1643 Snooker balls are smaller righht? It would make sense the tips they use are smaller between 10.5 and 11.8 instead of 12.5 to 13mm more common in pool.
@@b4ssfunk3dactually, about 9-9.75mm for snooker
Snooker 9.5mm tip @@b4ssfunk3d
Your creativity while testing and the effort you put for us, means a lot. Thank you so much, for everything !
You're welcome! I aim to swerve. :)
best and most thorough deflection test i’ve seen yet, doing gods work as always doc
I'm glad you think so. I also really liked this simple and effective procedure. It was very easy to be accurate and consistent.
nice to see how many factors really play a role in playing pool. it is a science for it self. very nice that you take the time and efford to make such videos.
No one does it like you sir, great work!!
Thanks! I’m glad you think so.
As long as you know how your cue plays that’s all that matters. Reyes could beat you to death with a broom handle. As long as your cue is straight and has a good tip on it the rest is just personal. If the cue makers told you there wasn’t any difference in the shafts you wouldn’t buy any new ones and they wouldn’t make any money.
Agreed. It’s the player, not the cue.
While this explained alot, on understanding what Deflection is,..... I am kinda NEW to the sport, (played back in 77-78 while in the USA Navy.) I understood using English, YET, no idea that the Shaft was a big part of it.... only that it was how we placed the tip on the ball..... SO,... Now I am wondering, would I want a high, or Low deflection shaft? (until last month, I only used "house" stick at Am-Vets etc....
See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/selecting/
and:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
In my recent tests H tips creates more deflection than M or S tips on Carbon Fiber shafts. Great work!
I’ve had mixed results concerning tip hardness per the section at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Hello. What are the disadvantages of playing with a smaller tip? (7.5 mm)
@@lukezanella7578 See the info and video here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
Hi. Dr. Dave im a beginner in pool. And i have some question. What weight you recomend me for a pool stick, and diameter. And i have sweety hands what kind of grip you recomend me.
Best regards Juan.
See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/weight/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/selecting/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/grip/technique/
Fantastic video, love the setup and your consistent stroke for this test. Very hard to argue with the data
Thanks. I honestly think anybody can get good results if they follow the procedure and advice on the video, regardless of how good or bad their stroke is. It just might take longer with a bad stroke.
Also triangle tip should weigh less than the layered victory sof tip on 12.4
Good point; although, tip hardness also has an effect. See the section at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Hi Dave, do you know if the Revo shafts are well suited to play Balkline/StraightRail carom billiard ?
I don’t play carom billiards, but I would think the advantages apply equally well:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for the reply.
I wonder mostly about the suitability of a Revo when it comes to do carom type hardcore massés and piqués.
I dont see how it could be a problem since there are no ferrules on Revos.
Low Deflection shafts that have ferrules are at risk of breaking with massés.
Also the 11.8mm type is quite big for carom, even for 3-cushions.
@@JeezVince I agree that the Revo would probably be fine for power massés.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks Dave for always giving some of your time for our questions. We love you Sir.
@@JeezVince You're very welcome, and thank you!
Would love to see deflection tests for kielwood shafts like Hsunami shaft!
Me too. Anybody can easily and accurately compare any cues using the procedure in the video.
Dr. DAVE ....could you please try a KEILWOOD shaft and see what kind of results you get, including the PurX fuse, and also the hsunami ... thanks!!
Sorry, but I don't plan to test more shafts. The purpose for the video was to show how anybody can easily and accurately test shafts on their own (using the procedure in the video).
@DrDaveBilliards sure ...but ibfeel like kielwood has lower deflection than all the shafts you tried... you should definitely try it out , I've done the test , and the kielwood hits dead center almost ....about every time
So you didn't use the same tip on all cues??
🤣🤣🤦♂
Ain’t nobody got time for that. :)
Actually, I have done tests with different tips before and didn’t find much difference. See the links and info at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Great comparison Dr dave, the triangle revo is definitely trimmed smaller than the other 12.4 and looks even small compared to the 11.8 so no wonder it had lower deflection.
I have tested a 12.5 cf shaft for around 3 hours then trimmed the tip to around 11.7 and the deflection went down a fair noticeable amount
@@iimiboy See the squirt-related tip size and hardness info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
The effects aren’t as “obvious” as they might seem.
@@DrDaveBilliards oh I've watched all your videos of course. Even a few mm is a lot to me but also smaller length on a tip makes a difference I've found which I'm sure I first learnt from one of your old vids
@@iimiboy The links above have much more info than any videos. Check them out.
@@DrDaveBilliards thanks Dr Dave, I'll rewatch it, appreciate your efforts
Hello sir, what hardness is the tip on revo 11.8?
It is the standard Victory Soft that ships on the Revos.
Maybe I missed something... I'm confused to why a thinner shaft would have less deflection in this test. Anybody?
In general, a thinner shaft will have less “endmass,” which create less CB deflection. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/cause/
@@DrDaveBilliards thanks!
Dr. Dave, I love all your videos and you are a true treasure for the pool community. I hope I meet you one day. Will you be reviewing different carbon fiber shafts from different brands. I am really curious about Whyte Carbon Wood Grain shaft as it seems that's the only shaft in the market which looks like wood. I have been using revo 12.4 carbon fiber for 5 months and I am still not thrilled about the black color and the metalic noise when I hit the ball with a stroke.
I don't have plans to do any more review or testing videos. Everything I've done to date can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/published-data/
@@DrDaveBilliards thank you for the response Dr Dave. It looks like Whyte carbon is pretty good as well. I am used to playing with Revo but the sound is driving me crazy.
@@velikayim2182 Personally, I don’t care how a hit sounds. I just care about what the CB does. But you can change the sound with a softer tip.
The best one is the one you shoot best with.
Well stated.
Hi dr Dave! If the tips are shaped to the same radius, how does the tip diameter affect the spin or deflection on a shot? I can’t really find any videos on just tip diameter
See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
and:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass/
It looks like the harder tip has less deflection. Ive always heard you say in the past there is no effect. Its almost a 1/4" it looks like at high speed. I would say that is about right. I use the 12.4 Revo sometimes and like the way it plays with a Zan grip hard but for soft shots it just can miscue to often. I am back to using Kamui soft of zan hybrid max now.
See the "Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?" section at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
You sure get technical with the game.
I suppose you have to because there's so many variables.
Cloth q stroke English on and on and on
who owns a jacoby kielwood shaft? i do and i realy like it
If say using the deflection test a cue shaft is found to deflect 2 inches over the length of the table and has a NPL of 20 inches from the tip , would you expect a differnt cue shaft (with same tip hardness/thickness ) whose deflection is 3 inches over the length of the table (50 % more ) to have a NPL tha is 50% shorter or around 13.33 inches ? Also it is said that shaft end weight determines deflection (for the most part ) has there been any study as to what length matters meaning for example the shaft end weight that matters for deflection is only the first 6 inches of the shaft and beyond 6 inches any added or reduced weight from the shaft would not have any noticable effect on a shaft's deflection. Thank you
Yes. The natural pivot length should vary in proportion to the amount of CB deflection. For info on how endmass affect CB deflection (and how distance from the tip factors in), see the explanations and article links here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass/
Dr.Dave I’m really getting some very good numbers on this cue of mine. At the table we put a golf tee on the rail and took the cue ball back behind the line. added 1 full tip of left english and stroke the ball very firm. It turns out my friend filmed the shot and the cue only deflexed the width of a piece of shock chalk. This is the same cue that has 2 marks on the shaft. One mark for 3 or 4foot shots and the other mark is for any length longer than 4ft the first mark measures 9 1/2 inches for the short shots and the other measures 12 1/4 inches this is really cool no need for all the calibrated numbers for multiple shot Lenghths.
I started to watch this but with all of the shafts being of different diameters and having different tips and without a machine delivering a consistent stroke I don't see how this can be an accurate test. Every test comes out objective to personal opinion. I've been trying to find information on how carbon shafts are made and why some are, by opinion, better than others. Any suggestions would be appreciated. But thanks for your hard work.
With the carefully designed procedure described in the video, human testing can give excellent results, even if one's stroke is not perfectly consistent. FYI, machine testing is not always as good as some people think. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/robot-test-results/
especially the "Rules for CB Deflection (Squirt) Testing" section.
I think a smaller diameter tip works better.
Per the info here, size (or tip shape) really doesn't matter much:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
@DrDaveBilliards It seems to work better for me and allows more precise control. Perhaps it's more of a personal preference. But it does make a difference for me.
Can u do a comparison test which can draw easier a 12.9mm carbon fiber shaft, a 12.5mm, 12.4mm or 11.8mm carbon fiber shaft
I wouldn’t expect any meaningful difference. If you or others wanted to test this, you could use the procedure in the videos in the “Can a softer tip put more spin on the ball?” Section here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
I shoot regular pool with a 10m tip snooker Q. I don't get squirt.. I did with preditor tho. I can't stand squirter.
Also I don't need to go out to the red line for the same spin. I feel I can achieve same spin same hit say for nothing but right hand English I feel I don't have to as far right like I do with a bigger mil tip. I also use a dime radio's. Because of the small tip I use a super hard tip.
Every cue (even 10mm) creates squirt; although, some create much less than others. But you still need to be able to compensate for swerve (and squirt) effects over a wide range of shots.
has anyone experimented with uneven lengths of cue shaft vrs butt section. would a longer butt and shorter shaft tend to lessen deflection? i would think a shorter shaft would result in less vibration but perhaps have more or less deflection. as a tall player i often use an extension, sometimes on the butt, other times in the middle.
i pose this question as dr dave usually produce videos with a more detailed technical explanation
The causes for CB deflection and techniques for reducing it can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/cause/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
Enjoy!
I would enjoy seeing more shaft comparisons. Jacoby, Cuetec, McDermott, etc. Though I know some people tend to refrain from "stirring the pot" when it comes to brand "Fan boys" or even upsetting manufacturers. (Even though they all claim to be the best.)
Mezz Ignite would be an interesting one to compare to Revo for sure
The main purpose of the video was to show how easy it is to do tests like this so others can test whatever they want on their own. Go for it.
How about no shaft comparisons pick-your-own what you feel what you like what is comfortable to you. I still play with maple even though a friend gave me a carbon fiber shaft because he didn't like it I played with it quite a bit and I just go back to my maple.
Hi, I have one question: Why the cue tip on carbon cues are usually with less carve on the top of cue? I mean its like more flatter.
Is this something that have sense to be like this, or is just preference?
Carbon fiber (CF) jump and break cues usually have a flatter tip (for less unintentional sidespin), but this is not the case for CF playing cues. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
I wonder where the Revo 3C-U shaft stands even though it’s meant for
Carom. Predator says “most precise & most accurate shaft in the world” Has 4 shaft weight options. It’s 27.25” but if its deflection is lower than a regular 11.8 can get a 2” extension to make up for it.
Well, now you know how to test it.
Speaking of "robot", have you ever played with a Meucci?
... not for any real length of time.
Thanks for these videos, very informative.
I have a spare maple cue shaft lying around and was wondering if you had a video or could do one where you taper the last 6 inches and shorten the ferrule and do the test on that?
I honestly don't have interest in doing such a test, but you could. The testing procedure in the video is easy for anybody to do. Reducing the endmass will certainly reduce the amount of CB deflection per the info and other tests done (as documented in the linked articles) here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass
Good luck, and have fun!
Hello. I have been playing for a few months now. My question is how important is your cue? I have a pretty cheap felt tip que. In all of these videos, he is adding so much spin to the cue ball and getting to move all over the place after the shot. If I try to hit the cue ball anywhere far off the center of the ball it squirts straight left. Should focus on my accuracy or should I get a better que? Thanks.
As long as the tip holds chalk, the cue really doesn’t matter much, per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/selecting/
If you want help with technique, here’s a good place to start:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/fundamentals/
And if you want to learn how to get maximum backspin for draw shots, see the videos and info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/draw/advice-and-drills/
Avid vs cinergy please!!
Anybody can easily test and compare any cues using the simple procedure in the video. I don’t have plans to test more.
@@DrDaveBilliards ok! Sorry!
Dr. Dave, I know you have shown many times over how tip hardness has no meaningful effect on English. Does the same hold true in terms of deflection? What do you think would result in playing the same shaft with varying tips?
The answer is not so simple. See the "Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?" section at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Does weight of the cue matter in deflection? I've heard heavier cue can cause more deflection.
No, unless some of the added weight is close to the tip. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass/
This video bought to you by ..... PREDATOR!!
The main purpose of the video was to show how easy it is to do tests like this so others can test whatever they want on their own. I just tested the stuff I had available as examples. More tests and data can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/published-data/
and here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
Guys I appreciate your efforts but all these tests of shafts while you just playing from your hand is meaningless on my opinion. No man on this planet can't hit the ball 2 times in a row 100% same and if we know that we also know that final results may vary a LOT. So, where is true purpose of this? Instead of trying to play with millimeters I think that is more useful for all to give us your honest opinion about every shaft you use. Playing actions, feedback, front weight, deflection, overall feel in your hand. Thanks and good luck.
Watch the entire video again. I explain how testing with a human instead of a machine can give good results. You are correct that it is nearly impossible to get the exact same hit 2 times in a row, but that is not required with appropriate testing procedures, as explained in the video. Concerning machine testing, even more care is required. See the “Rules for CB Deflection (Squirt) Testing” section here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/robot-test-results/
Concerning “playing action, feedback, front weight, and feel,” I honestly don’t place much importance in these things since any good player can easily adjust to any differences in these things. All I care about is where the CB goes. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/feel/
@@DrDaveBilliards thanks for info. I'll watch entire video later. 👍
I would love to see your thoughts on Kielwood shafts
I haven’t tried one yet, but I can’t imagine being convinced to switch back from carbon fiber due to its advantages:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
Is the butt end of the cue marker on the rail offset from the table center line the same amount as the cue tip is offset from the cue ball center and table centerline?
Yes. The line of aim of the cue is perfectly parallel to the center-ball line of aim. Although, it doesn't really matter. The differences among the shafts is what is important (regardless of the aim, assuming the aim is consistent, which is the case in the video). Now concerning aiming when playing, I use SAWS:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
Whyte Carbon
See the 2nd video here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
Dr.Dave what is the title of your music? It was great
It is automatically generated by my video editing software (Pinnacle Studio). The theme is called “Electronic Breather.”
How do you get a consistent aiming point on the object ball
I don't. I use DAM, like how most good players aim:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/aiming/dam/#advice
Hello dr dave are there different deflection between uni lock joint and radial joint ?
No. Only the 5-8 inches of the shaft closest to the tip affect CB deflection per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass/
Always good videos and info Doc! You have come a long way since VEPS sir!!! I still have and thoroughly enjoyed that DVD set.
Thanks. When I look back at VEPS, I also think I have come a long way; but VEPS is still a great resource, IMHO.
Need to get your hands on a kielwood. I was love to see the comparison results for a torrified wood shaft
I don’t plan to do any more testing in the foreseeable future, but anybody can easily do tests and comparisons on their own using the simple procedure in the video.
@@DrDaveBilliards I’m still anxiously awaiting my Hsunami 2.0 shaft to arrive. Supposed to take 14-16 weeks for delivery. Today makes 16 weeks. Fingers crossed for this week
You be doing to much 🤦
I'd be interested in testing the cutec avid shafts to see how they compare to these
I don’t have any plans for future testes, but anybody can easily test and compare any cues on their own using the simple procedure in the video.
Wow, what a comparison👌👏
I’m thinking about a predator revo this Christmas since predator is one of my dream cues I been eyeing up a Meucci pro and McDermott g core that have designs I like too
I hope Santa thinks you’ve been a good boy. :)
@@DrDaveBilliards I been trying hopefully it happens I been pretty dominated for only playing for a year and hold the speed ball record where I play league night for and reached a 4-0 before finally getting beat by scratch on 8
Exceptional thank you for the thorough review
Thank you, and you're welcome.
MERRY XMAS TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY SIR. I would appreciate your opinion, its been nearly 10 years since predator popularized the carbon fiber shaft with no ferrule to get the front end weight down to lower deflection to where the pivoit point tas low as 19 inches or so on the REVO compared to the original wood 314 shaft of around 12 ". Is there any other material cue makers can go with for the shaft to go even lighter than carbon fiber that can maintain a smooth bridging surface ? If not then i will be all about lesser more conical taper then coz you already took out the ferrule , only shaft meteiral and taper can be worked on right ? Do you think there is any new shaft material to expect in the next 2 yrs to rival carbon fiber for deflection ? Thanks a lot.Sir
Carbon fiber is tough to beat. About all they can do to reduce CB deflection further is reduce the diameter and wall thickness near the tip, but there is a trade-off with strength.
For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass/
@@DrDaveBilliards I think the wall thickness reduction you say is the way to go wifth Since its stiffer that wood , further thinning the wall could make the shaft flex closer to a wood shaft . Its stiffness seem to be one reason wood purist dont like it. Another is Im not sure but maybe thining the wall further will make the sound of the hit better Right now they come with soft tips , most like playing with medium tips but a medium tip on a revo does not sound good another reason some dont like it. Thinning the wall may mean you can do away with that silencer pad which is turnoff for people who change their own tips without s latte. Here in the Philppines majority change their tips manually . So thinning the wall alleviate to a certain extent 2 things people dont like about it that could change their minds to buying one increasing sales. The tip diameter i think the limits are there conical is not comfortable with a closed bridge which many use. and unless you are a good player with a good stroke its tougher to hit the cb and not get uninteded side spin. Thank you
Nice scientific like testing. Thanks for a very good video, I'm playing in my first ever league. I'm a pretty good player, I'd say a bit above average. Can you recommend a good cue up to a 400-500 cost, preferably with an extension? Thanks
I don't have any specific recommendations, but the exact choice really doesn't matter much. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/selecting/
Thanks for the prompt reply Dave
@@DrDaveBilliards
@@Roberto-t8z You’re welcome.
" 'shaft' ... ehehe ... hehe "
- butthead
I want to compare my shaft to the ones you tested. I don’t have an elephant cue ball. I do however have a Jim Rempe practice ball. Do you know what amount of spin would be comparable? For example ring 4 on a Jim Rempe ball.
The diameter of the red circle on the Elephant Practice Ball is 1 1/16".
@@DrDaveBilliards Perfect thanks Dave!
Guess I'll go buy a predator revo since that's the only one on the market apparently lol.
I tested Revos because that is what I have, but the player is much more important than the cue. With SAWS, I can honestly play at the same level with any cue (after about 20 minutes of recalibration).
Also, the main purpose of the video was to show how easy it is to do tests like this so others can test whatever they want on their own. So test whatever you want to test. The procedure in the video is easy and gives reliable results (regardless of the shooter).
The defy shaft
Interesting video! :) Just curious, where are you aiming for each of these shots? Are you continuing to aim at the first mark (and therefore aiming more across the shot as you go further out to the edge of the cue ball) or are you parallel shifting your target?
The cue is perfectly parallel to the center-ball line of aim. The same aim and tip position is used for every shot in the video.
Concerning how I aim when playing, I use SAWS:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
It's nice to see proper methodical testing of this, and to find out that it jibes with my own experience. The popular narrative is that the revos deflect less than anything, but I was pretty sure that a 12.4 Revo was not deflecting less than a Z3 or OB Pro plus, and might be deflecting a bit more.
One thing, do people use deflection as the net of squirt plus swerve? I've always used it just as just a less grody synonym for squirt. I thought that's how everyone defined it.
People mean different things by "CB deflection." Concerning playing, they usually mean how far the CB would miss your target if you don't compensate your aim (for the combined effects of squirt and swerve). But an LD shaft creates less CB deflection (or squirt) off the tip.
@@DrDaveBilliards I'm probably just being lazy but do you have a breakdown somewhere of how much swerve you get over different distances in inches? I know it varies with individual differences in elevation and cloth conditions but I'm wondering roughly speaking what percentage of deflection is Squirt versus swerve. In my head it's 90% squirt but swerve probably plays more of a role than I think.
For fast speed shots, squirt is the dominant. At slower speeds, swerve reduces the CB deflection more. And swerve varies dramatically with cue elevation. And everything changes with distance. For more info and videos on this topic, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
Hey Dave, a bit of an aside, but I just stumbled upon your article on parallax error and in particular your refence to parallax error caused by focal distance when your head is not square on properly. I was trying to find information on this and didn't even know what to search for and ended up asking Chat-GPT which told me the terminology to look for. Thanks Dave and Chat-GPT!!
If you want to learn more about this and see lots of pertinent videos, check out the videos and subtopic links here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/eyes/
@@DrDaveBilliards Dave I was wondering if you could help me with another unrelated question? I've noticed for several years now, I have a problem where, I'll get down to do a straight shot (or any shot) and the cue ball and object ball will be aligned properly in my vision, but then I'll take the shot and miss and the reason is because my cue was not pointing exactly where I thought it was prior to the shot. In other words, my body/head alignment and cue alignment are out of sync with each other causing me to shoot across the ball. I can somewhat correct this by concentrating really hard on putting my cue on the correct line before getting down, but if it's even slightly off, then I often find it very difficult to see that it's off once I'm down on the shot, unless I stare at my bridge hand and really examine the slope of my cue. I have a friend who uses this weird method where he rotates the cue in order to more easily see which way it is pointing. Is it the case that with the pros their body/head and cue are always perfectly synced? so that when their visual alignment is correct their cue is also pointing in exactly the right direction?
@@dhirajpallin2572 Pro players always have their personal "vision center" aligned with the shot line. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/eyes/vision-center/
What are the physics of deflection as they relate to speed? I would think a slower speed would create more deflection because the tip would have more time to bounce back into the ball. I know it doesn't work this way, but it seems backwards. Maybe a faster speed tip has more energy (mass) so the ball is deflected more? Your thought?
See the videos and info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/cause/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/speed-effects/
@@DrDaveBilliards OK, after reading the material, I want to believe deflection is the same at all speeds and the only difference is swerve. However, at a certain speed swerve has very little effect. I think the slow speed you used in this test would have very little swerve at the distance you were measuring deflection. In some cases, it was an inch difference depending on speed. In my own experience, deflection is much larger with faster stroke. Maybe you can show a curved path at the slow speed you tested here? Thanks for all the information you share.
@@jeffren70 CB deflection (the net effect of squirt and swerve) is definitely larger at faster speed, per the explanations and demonstrations at the links.
No need for a machine, dr Dave is a machine!
Machines don't always give good results anyway, per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/robot-test-results/
Good to know I have the lowest deflection shaft… I got it as somewhat of a newbie and thought initially that the 11.8 diameter was a mistake. I’ve since changed my mind.
Regardless of the amount of CB deflection, you still need to know to aim differently for shots with different amounts of spin, speeds, and distances. FYI, LD shafts have both advantages and disadvantages per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
You basically can't know the real truth about deflection on test "from hand" like this one. There is NO WAY that anyone can repeat 100% the same hit 2 times in a row. No way.
When you watch the video, there is a much larger difference between the different diameters of carbon fiber shafts than the difference between the wooden and carbon fiber shaft (players cue aside) and I don’t think the results spreadsheet accurately reflects that fact. I don’t think you purposefully did that but it is worth mentioning. Also, in my opinion, the difference between one inch of deflection and 2 1/2 inches of deflection should not, in theory, necessarily improve one’s game since in both cases the deflection is still present and needs to be accounted for, which I think reaffirms the fact that it’s all about the player, not the equipment. Overall this video is quite useful, as always.
Shafts of different diameters can have the same CB deflection. Many things affect the "endmass" of the shaft. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/endmass/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/cause/
I'm not sure I understand your point about the difference shaft diameters.
@@DrDaveBilliards My point was just to describe my observations watching your video. I only briefly looked over that endmass link, but it seems like in the case of the revo, it is possible that larger shaft diameters indirectly cause more deflection (not saying that is true for all shafts). That said if the revo had the core drilled out, as described in the article, and the wall thickness was the same in all the shafts, as I seem to remember you mentioning in the video, that may not explain what I saw. But the amount of increased deflection I saw with larger revo shafts was significant, so do you know if it is possible for small differences in manufacturing to make that much of a difference?
@@rqlk The 11.8 and one of the 12.4 Revos had the same CB deflection. That shows that diameter is not the only factor. Although, it makes sense that the largest-diameter Revo had the largest CB deflection. For a larger diameter carbon fiber shaft to have less CB deflection, it would need to have a smaller wall thickness (which is possible).
@@DrDaveBilliards I must have misremembered, I rewatched the video and I see now 11.8 and 12.4 are the same. I also do see once again watching the videos of the shots that there isn’t any meaningful difference between the z3 and the smaller revo shafts. I also still think that the difference in deflection between the cues, again players cue aside, is negligible for the purpose of improving one’s game.
Thank you Dr. Dave great stuff.
Thank you, and you're welcome. I aim to swerve (and squirt). :)
More good stuff from Dr. Dave.
I'm glad you liked it.
Cool test, would be interesting to see a couple of snooker cues in there too. Very impressed with your accuracy and consistency!
The main purpose of the video was to show how easy it is to do tests like this so others can test whatever they want on their own. Go for it.
Arse! Why so sharp Dave? He was impressed but you ignored that part! He doesn’t want ego so no channel and he is doesn’t want to make money from pool!.. You do, so crack on.
Sir can you do a analysis shot and demonstration of one of Efren's best magic shot it's his match to a fellow asian man forgot his name where Efren use the corner of the side pocket so that he can pocketed the 1 ball on the corner pocket
See Shot 2 here:
th-cam.com/video/V1czUp9k2Uk/w-d-xo.html
@@DrDaveBilliards ive already watch this the one I'm saying is his match against to a fellow asian man if I'm not mistaken it's a Chinese guy but I'm not sure, it's an Asian cup not US on that match Efren use the corner tip rail of the side pocket to hit the ball 1 that is on the corner pocket where his opponent put the ball as his defensive play and Efren shoot it on that corner pocket
@@inavziolanam3748 If you can find the shot, please post the MM:SS timestamp video link. Thanks.
@@DrDaveBilliards sorry sir, just forget about it you already did it I already watch it of one of your clips maybe I just missed it, it is on the compilation of you doing his famous shots btw thanks for your time😁👍
Every time I see you shoot it reminds me of a guy I played pool with in college, even your mannerisms match lol. I think his name was Stephan, or Stephen.
Personally, I've found that it really doesn't matter how much deflection you get but you need the deflection to be consistent. These tests are exactly what I do when getting a new cue, or replace a tip; then the results go into the little calculator in my head. I bet a large number of people that miss a lot of longer shots, when using any english, have never done this test.
You are revolutionizing pool. Thanks again for great video
Thank you, and you're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
Swerve but no squirt right? Lol
I really aim to squerve (squirt and swerve), but "aim to swerve" sounds better. :)
Are phenolic tips vegan? I saw your podcast on Star Talk where you mentioned that leather tips are the best and we are in the ivory stage in pool tips.
Phenolic is a resin, so I think it is “vegan;” however, a pure phenolic tip is really not suitable for a playing cue (to most players).
@@DrDaveBilliards right. Oh well, leather tips until we get better. A dark spot on our game like the ivory balls.
Never held anything but a maple shaft. Where I live, I'd have to drive three hours to test drive one. It'd be damn interesting to see how they feel. Seems like the new standard today, using some sort of core material that's not maple.
Carbon fiber shafts have pretty much no "core material." They are mostly cylindrical shells.
I have a Revo. It feels like literally a brand new cue every time you use it. Crazy smooth and doesn’t get dings. Never going back to wood.
@@danielvelkovski3156 FYI, I summarize all the advantages here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
I was referring to the McDermott core shafts. Where they are maple shafts with carbon core.
@@bertblue9683 Got it.
What is a triangle tip?
A brand.
Yep. Triangle is a common tip brand on the medium-to-hard side of the scale.
I like them, they seem to hold chalk very well. The seem to vary a little on hardness and quality. Buy a box and pick out the best ones.
Hey doc can you explain the shot of Karl Boyes against Skyler Woodward on the 2015 mosconi cup? When he puts the cueball beside the 2 ball and ref initially said it was a foul. Thanks Doc
Please send me a MM:SS video link so I can check out the shot.
@@DrDaveBilliards th-cam.com/video/dBdNlpgbFvs/w-d-xo.html
On the 11:58 minutes doc
@@ProudlyElongo Thanks. The ref did the right thing to reverse his call. It is not considered "using the ball to measure" if you are attempting to place the CB for a BIH position.
@@DrDaveBilliards can you recreate the shot doc? Thanks so much
Great comparison as always! Very interesting how end mass affects the deflection, in my mind I had assumed that deflection was due to the shaft bending slightly, and therefore a larger, and more stiff shaft would deflect less than a slightly less rigid shaft. Love this kind of information!
I'm glad you liked it. FYI, a lot more info and related videos are available via the links in the video description.
@@DrDaveBilliards Going to be jumping into those very soon! Very excited to study the game in more depth!
I remember when this was a pool channel. Now it's turning into a science class! 🤣
Don't despair. I'll get back to "more useful instructional stuff" soon. :)
@@DrDaveBilliards Ha, ha, no, I won't despair. I kind of like the refresher course in the Scientific Method. I always appreciate seeing it applied correctly, and effectively, and I believe you've done both. The bonus is that it applies to pool!
@@DrDaveBilliards I'm not sure if you'll see this comment, it's in a little late. You've said that you have no shortage of ideas for more videos, and I hesitate to ask this, because it would only add to that list, *BUT*... have you considered comparing (and contrasting) the differences between pool cues, and snooker cues, and why they differ?
(Or, have you covered that already, in a video I've overlooked?)
@@kurtkensson2059 Sorry, but I don’t play snooker, nor do I have any snooker cues. But the differences are fairly obvious. Snooker cues are smaller diameter, due to the smaller balls. They are usually made of ash instead of maple or carbon fiber. They usually have a conical taper, partly to increase strength due to the smaller tip diameter. They have a small and thin brass ferrule, which helps limit CB deflection. I would expect snooker cues to have similar CB as LD pool cues, but I have not tested for this. But using the procedure in this video, anybody can easily test and compare any cues on their own.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thank you for your quick reply.
I don't play snooker either, nor do I own any snooker cues. However, after watching your recent videos about tips, shafts, and deflection, and having been watching Stephen Hendry's channel, I began to wonder about the differences between pool cues, and snooker cues.
I knew about _how_ they differed, and I started wondering about _why_ they did. Why use ash? Why use brass ferrules? Why does the shape of the butts differ? What led to the differences between them, and what inherent advantages/disadvantages are there to those differences?
I know that this does fall outside of the topics you normally cover, and you already have a lot of material you'd like to cover in your future videos. I apologize if my asking distracted you from that.
Thank you for continuing to educate the billiard community!
Hi Dave
Keith again
It's funny how each player has her own little nervous condition if you know what I mean.
For example I went over a guy's house one time years ago, he was a good shooter.
But every time I get up to shoot he's playing with the radio volume up and down up and down.
It never ceases to amaze me how people don't want to give you any respect when you're shooting a shot or two or up at the table.
Especially when you give them all the respect in the world and sit there and don't say or do anything
Until it's your shot again.
I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
First❤
Now you're last.
Correction: Second.
You need to be faster than that! I guess I got lucky again. :)
Great video Dave. I'll take a little more squirt with wood. Love the feel of 🪵
Thanks. The best advice for cues is: master what you have and “stick” with it. Too many people think constantly changing equipment will make them better. They are wrong. The player is much more important than the cue.
I’d love to see you do a collab with stuffmadehere in which you use an adapted version of his mechanical pool cue to do science with
I have reached out to him in the past, but I never heard back.
One of the best instructors
Thanks!
This should be really interesting. Sad OB isn't included. Hopefully another spliced shaft is represented. OB is the original spliced shaft and one of the first low deflection shafts. Originally Joss made their butts. Now they make their while cue.
The main purpose of the video is to show how easy it is to do tests like this so anybody can test any shafts they want to test.
BTW, a fair amount of data for a wide range of shafts (OB included) can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/published-data/
@@DrDaveBilliardsoh yes I've tested my shaft. I know exactly how much full table deflection I get. Ignore my selfishness. Great video.
@@DrDaveBilliards glad to see OB at the top of the list!! Predator seems to be king of low deflection but OB is right there. However, that was for the OB-1. I have an OB-2+. I originally had an OB-1 but I misplaced it. So the deflection on their newer shaft has to be right up there with those predators. I've never actually measured it but full length the deflection is barely noticeable when shooting diamond to diamond.
''OB is the original spliced shaft'' That is not true, italian company Longoni started making spliced/laminated shafts 50years ago, and they still make them., They also started to make carbon fiber shafts 40years ago back in the 80's. Americans just like to take the credit for other peoples innovations. :D predator also claims to be the first in everything but they made there first spliced shaft in 1994, so it cant be true, ob started in 2004 :D
The Z3 is 11.75.
Thanks for the info. I guess my measurement was off.
Actually, I just checked Predator’s site. The Z3 diameter is 11.85.