Hi Jared, Although I've now long ago packed my skis away until next season, I still enjoy seeing that white stuff along with your commentaries. As a probable intermediate level recreational skier, I found myself somewhat questioning the technique ideas you were presenting until near the end of the video. To me, the "same time" backward arm swing with backward torso movement results in the arms being the primary source of power and momentum gain, but with very tired and sore arms often the result. Towards the end of your video, you demonstrated the slightly more advanced technique where the more forward lean along with the forward and upward torso movement provide the main power source, and the planted poles almost serve as anchor points so that the forward upward torso movement somewhat pushes the poles backward. I find this way much less arm demanding, and along with raising the heels in certain terrains, provides much more power. Certainly takes a bit of practice, but I think this style of double poling is the one to strive for.
Hey Brad! Believe it or not, we got another three inches of snow last night. Yikes. I guess I'm still shoveling. haha! As far as the double poling goes, the ski poles tips in the snow are absolutely the anchor points from which you're pushing off from. In fact, they're they only reason that you can move forward at all with the double pole technique. If it weren't for planting the poles and then pressuring down on them, you'd basically just be standing around enjoying the scenery :) Keep in mind that double poling is kind of opposite from diagonal striding with regard to pushing off. With diagonal striding, the main form of push-off comes from setting the grip zone into the snow and then pushing away from it. The poles become a secondary means of propulsion in this application. On the other hand, with double poling, you're not setting the grip zone at all. In fact, you're trying to keep it off of the snow. And in some racing scenarios, it's been rumored that skiers won't even apply grip wax to their skis because they intend to double pole the entire course (as it's faster than striding). Without a grip zone from which to rely on, the poles then become the primary means of moving forward. The explosion forward with the lean is secondary. By planting the ski pole tips in the snow, you now have a fixed point on the earth from which to push away from. For all intents and purposes, the tips are the grip zone. But to push away from that point you have to bear down on those poles. This is one of the main reasons you see racers get so high and forward when exploding forward -- they're trying to create a scenario where they can absolutely smash down on the poles which then propel them forward. There's the whole compression/expansion aspect about it, like with most other elements to cross-country skiing. Bear down on the poles to push off, and then explode forward/up to keep the momentum going and to be able to apply extreme downward pressure to the poles again. And then lather, rinse, repeat. What I presented in those demos was a progression from standstill, to medium pace, to an aggressive pace. The mechanics are all the same from one to the next. The difference comes in the amount of power that you start to apply from one approach to another. Also note that for most people, that race pace is just not sustainable. It takes a lot of effort as it's effectively a sprinting technique. This, in spite of the fact that top tier athletes can maintain it for longer distances. And, no matter how you cut it, you're going to get an arm workout because it is double poling, after all. But you're also getting a major core workout, as well, because you're engaging it so much on the compression. Watch some other videos on World Cup racers specifically double poling and you'll see that it's all the same mechanics, just that they add a lot more power to those mechanics to ski faster and more aggressively.. Anyway, not sure if that clears things up or just adds to the confusion. haha. Thanks again for watching, and for contributing to the conversation!
Thanks Jared. I really appreciate your responding to all posts, and in this particular case, to the thoughtful time and effort you took to explain things in very understandable detail - I now understand better and have learned more. No other TH-cam poster I know of is as conscientious as you in this regard!!
@@bradshacker246 You're welcome, Brad 🤗 I really appreciate all the positive feedback and meaningful comments you've provided this season. So, whatever I can do to help! ☺
Also, my compliments for the low angle intro video at 37 sec mark. I've been practicing this view during my alpine skiing BUT using my ski pole as mounting source near my legs. However, I often thought that I couldn't do this with cross country skiing as I'm always moving my pole to keep moving. Care to share your solution?
Haha, yes all the secrets ;) Basically, you just have to go downhill slightly so that you don't need to use the poles. And then you can just focus on holding the camera. But I do crouch down a bit and it takes a try or two to get the right angle. Sometimes I just end up barely getting the tips in the shot or I get all skis and no terrain (with a horizon line). I also hold my GoPro upside down so that the camera isn't off the ground too much (and don't have to crouch as much, either). I don't try to watch the camera too much, either, lest I run into a tree or ski off a cliff ;)
As what Brad wrote, I've turn my attention to road cycling, but.... I found some heart to play this tutorial now. I learned that I enjoyed double polling as late in this last season as you mentioned, when the snow was firm and glide was easy enough to slide without much forward effort. I've been lazy to intuitively do the movements that you demonstrated because of the good momentum I had. Coupled with the fact that my core could be stronger and my tricepts could be more tuned, I insticvely compinsate by diagnal striding when I need the power. Having said all that, I'd like to find more opportunities to practice this technique. What other circumstances can we look for these opportunities (ex. times of melt/freeze)? Perhaps the groomed trails offer more opportunity given regular traffic? Do you find other movements that help you keep tuned-up?
I don't blame you from moving on! We still have tons of snow, but it is rapidly melting. I did a 15-mile backcountry tour today with a friend (I'll post the vlog tomorrow) and the temps reached 70 degrees. We were cooked by the time we got back to the car. But the snow is still here so I'm making the most of it :) Double poling is pretty universal and you can use it all of the time. But it definitely is a core workout. And the arms can get fatigued as well. Usually I double pole down lower angle hills and on flatter terrain. On occasion I'll do a little uphill double poling if the snow is good. But, yes, on groomed terrain it's a go-to technique that's used frequently. Often the tracks will become glazed from use and conditions, so diagonal striding in those really affected sections can be frustrating (can lead to lots of slipping back if you don't set that grip zone). So, double poling is pretty standard if the angle of terrain is favorable through those glazed tracks sections. I do really light exercises a few times a week that work on core strengthening. Honestly, I mostly do them to warm up my lower back because I have a slightly wrecked disc between the last lumbar vertebrae and sacrum. So if I don't warm up first thing in the morning I tend to look like a really old man hobbling around for the first hour of the day. haha. It's probably not that bad, but it sure feels like it sometimes! This is the only dryland/off-season workout video that I've produced (th-cam.com/video/Dx4PXcAL8M8/w-d-xo.html), and it's mostly focused on single leg balance and agility. But when I'm doing crunches and hip raises (and a couple of other physical therapy exercises), I'll do those dryland single leg exercises. Everything is connected, so it's all good. Look up Atomic's TH-cam channel, as well. They have some off-season workouts that look really good. I've incorporated some of them into my workouts in the past, but I wanna just go through all the progressions. Maybe this year :) As always, thanks for tuning in and the great feedback!
Hi Jared,
Although I've now long ago packed my skis away until next season, I still enjoy seeing that white stuff along with your commentaries.
As a probable intermediate level recreational skier, I found myself somewhat questioning the technique ideas you were presenting until near the end of the video. To me, the "same time" backward arm swing with backward torso movement results in the arms being the primary source of power and momentum gain, but with very tired and sore arms often the result. Towards the end of your video, you demonstrated the slightly more advanced technique where the more forward lean along with the forward and upward torso movement provide the main power source, and the planted poles almost serve as anchor points so that the forward upward torso movement somewhat pushes the poles backward. I find this way much less arm demanding, and along with raising the heels in certain terrains, provides much more power. Certainly takes a bit of practice, but I think this style of double poling is the one to strive for.
Hey Brad!
Believe it or not, we got another three inches of snow last night. Yikes. I guess I'm still shoveling. haha!
As far as the double poling goes, the ski poles tips in the snow are absolutely the anchor points from which you're pushing off from. In fact, they're they only reason that you can move forward at all with the double pole technique. If it weren't for planting the poles and then pressuring down on them, you'd basically just be standing around enjoying the scenery :)
Keep in mind that double poling is kind of opposite from diagonal striding with regard to pushing off. With diagonal striding, the main form of push-off comes from setting the grip zone into the snow and then pushing away from it. The poles become a secondary means of propulsion in this application.
On the other hand, with double poling, you're not setting the grip zone at all. In fact, you're trying to keep it off of the snow. And in some racing scenarios, it's been rumored that skiers won't even apply grip wax to their skis because they intend to double pole the entire course (as it's faster than striding). Without a grip zone from which to rely on, the poles then become the primary means of moving forward. The explosion forward with the lean is secondary. By planting the ski pole tips in the snow, you now have a fixed point on the earth from which to push away from. For all intents and purposes, the tips are the grip zone. But to push away from that point you have to bear down on those poles. This is one of the main reasons you see racers get so high and forward when exploding forward -- they're trying to create a scenario where they can absolutely smash down on the poles which then propel them forward. There's the whole compression/expansion aspect about it, like with most other elements to cross-country skiing. Bear down on the poles to push off, and then explode forward/up to keep the momentum going and to be able to apply extreme downward pressure to the poles again. And then lather, rinse, repeat.
What I presented in those demos was a progression from standstill, to medium pace, to an aggressive pace. The mechanics are all the same from one to the next. The difference comes in the amount of power that you start to apply from one approach to another.
Also note that for most people, that race pace is just not sustainable. It takes a lot of effort as it's effectively a sprinting technique. This, in spite of the fact that top tier athletes can maintain it for longer distances. And, no matter how you cut it, you're going to get an arm workout because it is double poling, after all. But you're also getting a major core workout, as well, because you're engaging it so much on the compression.
Watch some other videos on World Cup racers specifically double poling and you'll see that it's all the same mechanics, just that they add a lot more power to those mechanics to ski faster and more aggressively..
Anyway, not sure if that clears things up or just adds to the confusion. haha.
Thanks again for watching, and for contributing to the conversation!
Thanks Jared. I really appreciate your responding to all posts, and in this particular case, to the thoughtful time and effort you took to explain things in very understandable detail - I now understand better and have learned more. No other TH-cam poster I know of is as conscientious as you in this regard!!
@@bradshacker246 You're welcome, Brad 🤗 I really appreciate all the positive feedback and meaningful comments you've provided this season. So, whatever I can do to help! ☺
Also, my compliments for the low angle intro video at 37 sec mark. I've been practicing this view during my alpine skiing BUT using my ski pole as mounting source near my legs. However, I often thought that I couldn't do this with cross country skiing as I'm always moving my pole to keep moving. Care to share your solution?
Haha, yes all the secrets ;) Basically, you just have to go downhill slightly so that you don't need to use the poles. And then you can just focus on holding the camera. But I do crouch down a bit and it takes a try or two to get the right angle. Sometimes I just end up barely getting the tips in the shot or I get all skis and no terrain (with a horizon line). I also hold my GoPro upside down so that the camera isn't off the ground too much (and don't have to crouch as much, either). I don't try to watch the camera too much, either, lest I run into a tree or ski off a cliff ;)
As what Brad wrote, I've turn my attention to road cycling, but.... I found some heart to play this tutorial now. I learned that I enjoyed double polling as late in this last season as you mentioned, when the snow was firm and glide was easy enough to slide without much forward effort. I've been lazy to intuitively do the movements that you demonstrated because of the good momentum I had. Coupled with the fact that my core could be stronger and my tricepts could be more tuned, I insticvely compinsate by diagnal striding when I need the power. Having said all that, I'd like to find more opportunities to practice this technique. What other circumstances can we look for these opportunities (ex. times of melt/freeze)? Perhaps the groomed trails offer more opportunity given regular traffic? Do you find other movements that help you keep tuned-up?
I don't blame you from moving on!
We still have tons of snow, but it is rapidly melting. I did a 15-mile backcountry tour today with a friend (I'll post the vlog tomorrow) and the temps reached 70 degrees. We were cooked by the time we got back to the car. But the snow is still here so I'm making the most of it :)
Double poling is pretty universal and you can use it all of the time. But it definitely is a core workout. And the arms can get fatigued as well. Usually I double pole down lower angle hills and on flatter terrain. On occasion I'll do a little uphill double poling if the snow is good. But, yes, on groomed terrain it's a go-to technique that's used frequently. Often the tracks will become glazed from use and conditions, so diagonal striding in those really affected sections can be frustrating (can lead to lots of slipping back if you don't set that grip zone). So, double poling is pretty standard if the angle of terrain is favorable through those glazed tracks sections.
I do really light exercises a few times a week that work on core strengthening. Honestly, I mostly do them to warm up my lower back because I have a slightly wrecked disc between the last lumbar vertebrae and sacrum. So if I don't warm up first thing in the morning I tend to look like a really old man hobbling around for the first hour of the day. haha. It's probably not that bad, but it sure feels like it sometimes!
This is the only dryland/off-season workout video that I've produced (th-cam.com/video/Dx4PXcAL8M8/w-d-xo.html), and it's mostly focused on single leg balance and agility. But when I'm doing crunches and hip raises (and a couple of other physical therapy exercises), I'll do those dryland single leg exercises. Everything is connected, so it's all good.
Look up Atomic's TH-cam channel, as well. They have some off-season workouts that look really good. I've incorporated some of them into my workouts in the past, but I wanna just go through all the progressions. Maybe this year :)
As always, thanks for tuning in and the great feedback!
@@JaredManninen Awesome, thank you. I’ll check them out!
Actually, I did watch your dryland exercise, lol! All good stuff.
Very cool! Thank you 🤗
You sure you're using klister, your hands, face, and clothes don't have any on them?
Ha Ha, I'm sure it's inevitable that I'll be covered in it 🤣