Dr. Bonnie Thurston - I Woke Up: Thomas Merton and Buddhism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2012
- "I Woke Up: Thomas Merton and Buddhism"
Lecture by Dr. Bonnie Thurston (Pittsburgh Theological Seminary) for the 2005 Swanson Lectures in Spirituality
November 14th, 2005
I married a practicing Buddhist who converted to Christianity, I must tell you and my wife would agree, “Buddhism leads to good, but not to God” so be loving always but cautious. It’s easy to get
lost while intoxicated. ✝️
Yeah. Buddhism is about compassion, but compassion is not EVERYTHING in life !!
I like this quote, and it's very true. The Buddha didn't answer questions pertaining to God(s) because it was irrelevant to the teachings. The goal of Buddhism is the "cessation of suffering" and anything relavent to that is what the Buddha taught.
Both Buddhism and Christianity are essential to life, not just one or the other. The two have very important goals.
You have a dualist definition of God. With that, your comment is misleading.
What is God ? Is God a concrete object or being ? If a Christian or Buddhist reaches perfect love, they are both with God. It doesn't matter what you call it.
This takes me back many many years
Many thanks to Bonnie for this lecture, just wonderful
Loved this lecture, it was extremely informative and insightful. I am a priest in the Episcopal Church and I returned to my Christian roots through the practice of Yoga when I was in my 20's. Later as a priest, I had the honor of sitting with Tibetan monks and Nuns at the feet of His Holiness the Dalai Lama as lead them in chanting. Through his own experience and writing, Merton validates these experiences for me, and for that I am truly thankful.
I noticed your comment and wonder if you could answer a question. I'm preparing a lecture and wanted to include an anecdote of a ceremony I witnessed in an Anglican church decades ago .It was a sober yet very inspiring experience. The ceremony was based around the extinguishing and re- lighting of the candles on a candelabra ,These (12 ?) . Candles were extinguished one by one, and when the last candle went out , the complete church was in complete darkness. Then the candles were lit again . I can't remember the name of this ceremony. I live in the Netherlands , so the few Anglican churches here are, are closed due to covid. Anyway. Do you happen to know the name of this ritual /ceremony ? . If i just know the name, i can find the rest via google !
A rich lifestyle.well done!courageous indeed!
@@spiritualanarchist8162 the Service of Tenebrae in the RCC. I was RCC for 62 years & a professed enclosed contemplative nun.
I am now Russian Orthodox. We also have a Lenten Service of 12 scripture readings with prayers & Troparions, & lamentations. & 12 lit candles, each extinguished after each reading. This service is held on either Holy Thursday night or Good Friday night.
@@nuns8126 Thank you. Yes i found the the Service of Tenebrae ,
@@nuns8126a nun for 62 years? I’m intrigued and wondering if I understand correctly. Did you leave the convent?
I think that this is a very lucid, helpful and sequential discussion of a very interesting subject.
clear and helpful - thank you.
Fantastic talk !!!!!!!
Thank for this talk ! To think that I lived in Calgary and did not come to this talk just shows that when the student is ready the teacher arrives
What a gift of light to come across this conference. Thanks Dr. Bonnie! Thanks Thomas!
This rings a bell as I left Christianity many years ago because there was no path for spiritual development. The only toolkit in Christianity was prayer which often proved ineffective. Hence Christianity is resigned to the spirit is willing but flesh weak.
I am attracted to Buddhism because it is practical and a wholistic spiritual practice starting from generosity, virtue, deep meditation and finally spiritual wisdom. It changes character , outlook and is a gradual release from suffering, from the inside out. Cheers.
Not what the lecturer said, in the least.
Thomas Merton had no intention of leaving Christianity or his position as a Catholic Priest. He wrote to a Monk at Gethsemani from Asia, and said this in a letter, telling him not to believe otherwise, despite what others would claim to him.
@@cherylmburton5577
I left Christianity as the bible is unreliable as it contains too many unfufilled prophecies, self contradictions and atrocities. Here's a sample.
1) End time
Jesus said some of those standing with him shall not !see death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom Matt 16:28
Jesus said this generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away Luke 21:32-33
2) Temptation
God does not tempt man James 1:13
God did tempt Abraham Gen 22:1
3) Earth
Earth abides forever Eccl 1:4
Elements shall melt, earth and the works shall be burned up 2 Peter 3:10
4) power of god
With god all things are possible Matt 19:26
Lord was with Judah, drove out inhabitants of the mountain but not inhabitants of the Valley because they had chariots of iron Judges 1:19
5) Sword
Put aside your sword, for all who take sword shall perish with the sword Matt26:52
He that has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one Luke 22:36
6) crucifixion
They crucified him in the 3rd hour Mark 15:25
About the 6th hour, they crucified him John 19: 14-16
7) Jesus
Jesus never answered Pilate and Pilate marvelled greatly Matt 27:13-14
Jesus answered Pilate John 18:33-34
8) Sins
Everyone bear own sins. Sins not passed to another Deut 24:16
Sins are passed down to the 4th generations Exodus 20:5
All sin thru one man Romans 5:12
Children do not bear parent's sins Ezekial 18:20
Slaughter the children for their father's sins Isaiah 14:21:22
9) god
God does not change Malachi 3:6
God does not lie and repent Numbers 23:19
The lord repented of the evil he thought of doing to his people Exodus 32:14
The lord put a lying spirit in the mouth of some prophets 1 kings 22:23 and god allows people to be deluded Thessul 2:11-12 though lying lips are a abomination to the lord Prov 12:22
New covenants given because first eternal covenants given to Jews were faulty Hebrews 8:7
10) Grace
Man is saved through grace, not works Ephesians 2:8-9
By works a man is justified, not by faith alone James 2:24
11) Parents
Honor thy parents Exodus 20:12
Death for disobeying parents Romans 1:29-32
Whoever does not hate father, mother cannot be my disciple Luke 14:26, Matt 10:34
12) Freewill
Freewill in Christianity is a myth as shown in Romans 9:9-24 where things are predistined and mankind could be punished even for things out of their control.
The list does not end here and anyone of the above is sufficient to prove the bible is unreliable. Since we cannot trust the bible on things we can see, all the more reasons we cannot trust the bible on what it says about things we cannot see.
My friend, it offers nothing that Christianity doesn't. Buddhism may lead to good, but it doesn't lead to God. If you saw Christianity as nothing more than an unsatisfactory religious system, you never experienced true Christianity. I pray that you return to the Person of Christ and His Living Waters. He is, for lack of better words, the Real Deal! Coming to Him requires surrender and repentance, to see our sin for what it truly is while staring into His bloody face of shame and humiliation... the Face of Love! I am 14 years into my journey with Him, and in awe that I've barely scratched the surface in terms of accessing the spiritual and emotional depth He offers!
@@foodforthought8308 Amen 🙏🏻
I didn't get the joke about the "wrong Descartes". Can somebody explain? Thanks 😊
This talk was longer and about 48 minutes of it seem truncated - Would it be possible to have access to that - it would really help in concluding a series of thought that Dr Bonnie was leading up to which in the light of Practice of Spirituality in Community and such issues would be helpful to hear the whole talk
Christianity did develop techniques for awakening the Mind but they were buried until 1945. The Gospel of Thomas has Zen meditation instructions...
"His disciples asked him: If we are infants will we enter the Kingdom? Jesus responded: When you make the two into one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the upper like the lower, and thus make the male and the female the same, so that the male isn't male and the female isn't female. Then you will enter the Kingdom."
Jesus said: When you make the two into one, you will become sons of men. When you say, "Move, mountain!" it will move. Therefore I say that if one is unified one will be filled with light, but if one is divided one will be filled with darkness."
EVERYTHING IS THE UNITIVE ONE. EVERYTHING HAS BUDDHA NATURE.
"Jesus said: The old man will not hesitate to ask a seven-day-old baby about the place of life, and he will live."
His disciples asked him: When will you appear to us? When will we see you? Jesus replied: When you strip naked without shame and trample your clothing underfoot, just as little children do, then you will look at the son of the living one without being afraid.
Jesus said: The earth and sky will roll up right in front of you."
ZEN MIND, BEGINNERS MIND, YOUR ORIGINAL FACE. DROP ALL CONDITIONING. ☯
The truth that these sayings reveal is the order of the transformations that have to be undergone by every seeker if the "Kingdom- consciousness" is to be realized. The first recognition-when you make the two into one - describes the first major inner revelation of the divine consciousness, that of the impotence of all dualistic concepts to begin to describe Reality. This is followed by the opening of the heart center (known as the heart-chakra in Hinduism, Sufism, and Buddhism), which dissolves all distinction of inner and outer in a living vision of all things burning in divine light.
This in turn leads to the collapse of all previously useful categories of high and low, sacred and profane, through the revelation of presence in all things, events, actions, and possibilities - what in Hinduism and Buddhism is known as the Tantric revelation of Nirvana as Samsara, of the world of appearance as being essentially one with Absolute Reality and saturated at all moments with Divinity.
In Russian Orthodoxy we would say: entering the Prayer of the Heart. Hesychia. Returning to Paradise. Becoming all flame. We emphasize entering the Mystery of the apophatic. See Vladimir Lossky's book on Orthodox Mystical Theology .
The Gospel of Thomas is not recognized by the church as part of the Holy Scriptures.
Merton was a close reader of Kierkegaard.
Is Jesus lifted up, that's the Spiritual safety net!
This is an interesting lecture…. But in Christ there is nothing lacking.
Right. From what she said, it sounds like there definitely is.
brilliant...I personally practice bhakti which is heavily rooted in mantra chanting on beads (2 hours daily) and devotion to holy teachers and places, but I also have a strong Catholic monastic nature (through Merton) plus an interest and deep sympathy with Tibetan Buddhism... there is a strong esoteric link between all... deep down beyond ritual, dogma and post cognitive conceptual boundaries...Merton was a devout Catholic but he could have stayed in India or Thailand for some years and still be fully renewed still sharing different traditions but unifying the esence...great holy man
Yeah me too... he speaks to me like Krishna Consciousness does
At 24:26 Dr. Thorston makes a very quick comparison between christianity and buddhism, stating that buddhism has articulated much more clearly the psychological steps of spiritual development, but she doesn’t provide any specific examples, or any clarification. It just sounds arbitrary and unfair towards christianity and the history of christian mysticism. Are we supposed to take such a delicate and hugely arguable statement at face value?
Tibet's introverted cultural focus is a singular pursuit of awareness, enlightenment in contrast to the West's extroverted material orientation. We in the West have the technology to send men to the moon, split the atom. Tibetan Buddhism has an inner-oriented technology that can take a practitioner to the heart of inner space, conciousness. It's not a religion so much as a technological system developed over countless generations of practitioners that can be culturally neutral within the context of varied religious systems. Sadly Buddhist teachings are no longer available in Chinese-occupied Tibet itself but happily the traditions are alive in diaspora in India, Nepal and even in the West. If one is very lucky, teachers of profound insight and kindness can be met as guides along the path. They can share meditative practices that can be effectively applied within other cultural and religious contexts if one does not feel called to be a Buddhist. It feels as if Tibet's special destiny as an inward-looking culture has been to explore consciousness and preserve the pathways for humanity's inward journeys.
@@insertnamehere7947 All great. The fact that “the West” tends towards extroverted materialism might be true, but it’s a generalization that doesn’t account for christian mysticism (for example), which has been inward-looking for century upon century. But even beyond the mystics, Christianity has always been inward-looking, and it has developed very insightful psychological techniques as part of christian spirituality. So making comparisons doesn’t make much sense. The professor’s mistake here was to bring up a rather crass comparison.
Western mysticism, of course! But not central to our culture. The glorious fringe. Just as there are "materialistic" Tibetans, there are "mystical" Westerners but not as mainstream personifications, one of the reasons we see Thomas Merton as so exceptional. Tibetan and Western collective focus are very different expressions of human aspiration. . C.G.Jung was certainly aware of the hemispheric differences of human conciousness. The Dalai Lama once said that if we could bring these capabilities together our world would be whole. He has spent a good deal of time conferring with Western scientists exploring the possibilities in the cultural cross-pollination of human potential, the union of inner and outer technologies.
@@insertnamehere7947 Ooooh… no. Mystical christians and “materialistic tibetans” should not belong in the same sentence, not even to compare the two groups, because it doesn’t make sense. Christianity has developed immensely profound psychological techniques. So, no comparison with Eastern disciplines is worth or valid. The talk was biased towards the speaker’s preference for some Eastern disciplines, and that’s really bad, also for Thomas Merton it would have been bad. We disagree. And that’s cool.
Direct perception of reality is without thought. Therefore without time and without a perceiver or "self." "Perception without a perceiver" may seem paradoxical, but it is this perception that lies between thoughts, and is experienced each night during deep sleep.
It is perception not by the "self" but by a witness called awareness. Awareness exists before, during and after a sense of self, but since we are preoccupied with "self," it is rarely experienced.
Deep sleep is not the absence of awareness, but the awareness of absence.
Zen can bring this deep sleep awareness into awake consciousness. Techniques are used to "stop the mind." Once a glimpse of "no thought" happens, this direct reality is no longer an abstraction, no longer a goal, but it is experienced as regular, daily life.
Jesus knew all this. And he talked about it. But he was ultimately misunderstood. And 2,000 years of putting Jesus up on a pedestal to be worshiped has obscured his teaching almost entirely. I think it is too late for Christianity. It is soiled beyond repair.
And the irony is that we must now look to the East to find out what the rabbi was on about.
True, indeed
Jesus told us that He Was The Son of GOD...if a soul believes that, it is worth adoration.
The truth in God's word is present if you open your heart and be what is true.
The Christian Orthodox Faith is full of these kind of paradoxes. And it teaches the prayer of "No Thought". That true prayer eliminates all images, imagination, & wandering. It reaches a still point in the Nous, the highest & finest PERCEPTION of awareness of the soul, the locus of eternity & union with God.
Thomas Merton Society of Vancouver to Calgary following a meeting! P.Hwang
There are BBC and Indian Govt documentaries now on youtube on Jesus's lost years and his visit to Kashmir and encounter with Buddhism. Wonder whether Merton was aware of it?
The idea that Jesus went to Kashmir is extremely speculative. I know of no serious historian who accepts this hypothesis- and I am talking about non-Christian historians, such as Geza Vermes.
Plus that was after he died on the cross that was a theory that they took him off the cross and he fled to India to live out his remaining life there’s another theory that he went to Egypt and India between the ages of 12 to 30 and studied with the great sages and yogis of the time and came back a spiritual master which the Tibet Buddhists supposedly have record of a Jesus or yesuah being there supposedly
@@Stereostupid agree...the supposedly being integral...The Wod Of GOD has all the info we Need to Know in it.
Check it out.Merton was usually aware of everything he wrote about.Perhaps this information came about after Merton died.
@@bayreuth79 true, also no serious historian accepts the actual existence of the biblical Jesus without many qualifications.
How come then that Jesus Christ asks us to be COMPLETELY AND ONLY ROOTED IN HIM
One wonders: if Jesus's invitation 'come and see' is an invitation to wake up in zen's sense, why has zen but not christianity developed the technicques leading to such an awakening, so that a cistercian monk has to throw the bridge from the latter to the former?
Laureano Luna even though your question might be rhetorical, I’d like to share my thoughts on your comment. I think it comes down to the focus and basic tenets of both religions differ. Christianity focuses on salvation through faith and work, by the grace of God. It’s a balance between the believers’ own agency and God’s grace that Christians are ‘redeemed’. Buddhists on the other hand are focussed on achieving enlightenment on their own through spiritual practices, which includes meditation. Of all the Buddhist branches, Zen is the one which focuses the most on achieving enlightenment through rigorous meditation. This branch also benefits from assimilating Indian, Chinese/Taoist and Japanese meditative techniques. Christianity also lost/got disconnected from many of its mystical or contemplative practices as the older Christian communities became extant or supplanted in Africa, West Asia and Europe. It is very fortunate that many Buddhist lineages remained unbroken in East Asia.
For 1,000 years the Christian church was one. In 1054AD the great schism occured where the Roman See left the 4 Eastern Orthodox Sees of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, & Constantinople. Rome became influenced by Augustinian & Acquinas thought processes, very scholastic, analytical, & distant from the Early Church Fathers' emphasis on penetrating the Mysteries through the practices of fasting, chanting, concentration on Prayer of the Heart/stillness (Hesychia). The west lost it's connection to the religion of the Apostles, still alive in the Eastern Orthodox Church. This is why Vatican 2 was supposed to be a renewal of it's church & return to the charisms of it's early monastic founders & spirituality. Instead it lost tract & focused on guitar folk masses in the vernacular, tossing out fasting & religious hahits along with traditional prayer & contemplation. It got sidetracked into peace & justice, ecology & environment, championing liberation SPIRITUALITY, & Enneagram, & other distractions.
🕊🌎🕊🕊sharing🫂thankYOU
REALIZE THE KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS WITHIN
“We all stand on our own”… no need for the ‘structures’. Sounds very Protestant of Merton.
Do I sense a slightly 'favoritism' for Tibetan Buddhism in the first ten minutes ;-).
Let's not forget that trough Zen, he re-vitalized the forgotten Christian contemplative practices like centered praying , Silent praying etc,etc. Because of the focus on meditation rather then on Buddhist traditions and.ritual, Zen could be introduced into christian monastic life.
Zen could be introduced into christian monastic life.} It has and is , a little bit goes a long way too.It put's to end christian sentimental contemplation silliness too..
First of all, Buddhism is not a "religion" , it is a philosophy just as Judaism, Christianity and Islam are at their core. That said, it has been made to operate as a "religion" by those who have added all the dogma and tenets and other trappings of religions. It has been made a profitable enterprise complete with all the traditions and ceremonies and conflicting dogma just as can be seen in all other religions. The world is full of "priest", pastors, rabbis, gurus; all kinds of self proclaimed " holy teachers", each with their own special irrefutable knowledge of the way of "salvation". Merton is not unique in any way. He was , just as so many religious mentors have been, a man with a different personal idea of what, how and why his ideas are note worthy.
Philosophy means "love of wisdom". Religion means "re-joining". Whatever name you choose to call it by.... it remains the same. All provide a path to reunification and atonement. Philosophy offers not such.
I think she's cute.
Get her phone number 😊
All experiences and thoughts must be held up to the Word of God. Experiences are not the criteria for judging apart from the Word. The foundation of faith collapses when scripture has been added to Or scripture replaced by ideologies. All cults have a few things in common. They do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and they have other sources other than the Holy Scriptures that has been added to the Torah and the New Testament like The Book of Mormon which was given to Joseph Smith (a spiritist) by a demon appearing as an angel of light. Only Belief in Christ can redeem people from sin. It is a great danger to empty the mind. We are never told in the scriptures to empty the mind. Nature deplores a vacuum and so do demons. Jesus said why seek the living among the dead. One cannot cherry pick out of the Word what to believe.
Light needs to be shined on evil. Merton's death begs question after question after question... it is more probable his death was murder, NOT accidental as the speaker claims.
ti is interesting, that Buddhists always tend to want to be right and to claim points for themselves? Seems so Jewish, sorry.. So Merton, just because of his interest in Buddhism, almost gave up his own faith for Buddhism, just because he admired some traits of the oriental Religions? I find that strange, even troublesome. He was so much in touch with the mysterious Christ, that no one, 100 years after his death, should dare saying that had he lived longer, he would have gone back to the East to study Buddhism, maybe even would have become one himself?
Why? Was is not good enough, that he was a Christian monk, an extraordinary theologian, a brilliant writer, and a real human being, going through all the temptations of a human being, who had a difficult childhood, later tragedies in his life (like the death of his only brother Jean Paul ), left us with some of the best writings and testimonies of what Christianity really means, without simplifying anything?- Maybe too complicated for many who really do not want to understand what Christ was all about?
RUth Pulver and wrong is this lady Bonnie in many aspects of the Christian faith, like when she says that in Christian tradition suffering is the result of sin? How could she say something like that? All the saints and holy people who suffered so much because of their loyal faith, suffered because of their sins? Wonder what Thomas Merton would say to this point.!
RUth Pulver Probably she's refering the primal sin of Adam and Eve which acording to the christian faith is the beggining of human suffering.
RUth Pulver The definition of sin is to suffer.
RUth Pulver IT'S INTERESTING THAT BUDDHIST DO NOT CARE IF A BUDDHIST CONVERTING TO OTHER BELIEVES BUT IT'S ALWAYS A BIG DEAL IF ANY ONE INTERESTED IN BUDDHISM
+michelle le Buddha makes all religious people looks like a fool.
may i quote her, NOT merton: "the inner self and the God who is its essence." here she has done what merton said not to do: she has mixed or confused the two religions. in christianity, even in christian mysticism, the inner self is not God, but his bride - a soul freely created by God who fell away from Him, who by sheer election is called to become His bride, not to self destruct, and certainly not to become God. its not like you find out there is God and no one else...there is inside of us the very soul that also with the first adam chose to reject God's word...a fallen soul that needs His mercy, forgiveness...and ultimately becomes by sheer undeserved GRACE, and grace alone, His beloved bride, and a part of his bride with others - the redeemed. in fact Christ said that we were "in essence" bridesmaids, who may or may not have been acquiring oil to light our lamps. if we have enough oil and our lamp is shining bright, then we will be ready for Him and and the wedding banquet...but we are not the whole bride, nor the only bride...if we become holy we shall experience reality like the bride yes, as a holy marriage of Jesus Christ with all His saints...
***** I'm not completely sure what you mean "one with our inner self" so maybe I'm not answering your question, but Sadhu Sundar Singh explained it several ways. One was that it's like a sponge full of water. In a sense, they are one. But they are still definitely distinct. Relating to Chanan's post, when married we are to become 'one'. Though in a certain way I am one with my wife, I am still not her nor is she me. When we become married with Christ, we become one with him, but we are still not him nor is he us.
Stillness brings us into God's presence because we are shutting out the outside world. Just as we can't realize our inner self without stillness, we can't be brought into God's presence without out stillness (I use the language of absolute situations very lightly). But this doesn't mean they are one in the same. But yes, I think it does indicate a relation between the two.
In Buddhism there is no self...in Christianity there is emptying of the self and becoming the true self...Buddha did not believe in a god because it was not in his experience so he said he did not know...which makes sense because god remains unknown..the more you think you know god the more you become aware that god remains unknown but It doesn’t stop us from seeking him!i believe in Christ but there are similarities between Buddhism and ancient orthodox Christianity for sure
Jesus did say we are to become, from image of God to likeness with God. This is transformation in Christ & what Orthodox Christians call Theosis/Deification in Christ.
“Christ the still point of a turning world” said TS Elliott. When Jesus said to “wake up” so to speak, He was saying wake up to the truth that He is God. You can’t interpret the Gospels or epistles apart from the Holy Spirit. Zen means to see nothing. This interweaving of Catholic theology with Buddhism is poison and new age lies. Such a shame and dangerous. This will probably anger many who love Merton but perhaps the Lord removed him because he was going into extreme error. Buddhism numbs the mind.
Not to be too critical, but does anyone else realize that Thomas Merton, like Joseph Campbell, is promoted and emphasized, because he / they fulfilled a leftist world vision and movement that did not challenge the predominant academic views at the time? If one examines them carefully one finds a quite biased world view.....
Trash,get spiritual,man. BJK
I don't know your age, but nobody "promotes" Joseph Campbell today, or Thomas Merton. As your post shows, religious people who are especially Correct, like the Pharisee in the temple thanking God that he is "not like other men," promote their own unhappy discontent & political ruffianship, far from God, just as Merton perceived & warned in all those writings one perhaps finds a stumbling block to one's correctitude & self- assurances. I doubt you would like Jesus at all.