Why I use CBN wheels and Grind Dry for my Sharpening Business
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มิ.ย. 2022
- In this video I talk about why I changed from wet grinding on my Tormek T8 to dry grinding with CBN. To be clear this isn’t a knock on Tormek at all this was just what I found works best for my business. The Tormek T8 is my primary sharpener and I love it, but financially and for speed and convenience all lead to my choice to use CBN over wet grinding with Diamond. I suspect that the Tormek Diamond Wheels will give you fantastic results as well. That is one of the great things about Tormek you can modify for your individual needs and what you do.
Here are some useful links below if you want more info on CBN or Tormek:
woodturnerswonders.com
The can also be found at Yellow Hammer Tools on Amazon
amzn.to/3ODoFc5
My Fav CBN Wheels
woodturnerswonders.com/collec...
Tormek.com/usa/en
For learning sharpening and just great content I highly recommend the following TH-cam sites:
Stumps Nubs is a great place for woodworking but also how I found wood turner’s wonders he has lot of awesome content.
/ stumpynubs
Mathew Rowell he is a sharpener like me and shares lots a awesome content on building your sharpening business and how to sharpen. I have learned many things from Matthew and he even has a paid site and teaching service for those who are starting from the ground up is the sharpening business but his free content and tips on TH-cam are excellent
/ capnmatt41
This is my website for my sharpening service in Alexandria VA for anyone interesting in how I run mine or any looking for service.
alxsharpen.com
I use a 600 diamond wheel from Tormek. Works fast and gives an excellent result. I hate the need for an anti corrosion liquid. CBN looks tempting but I like how the water keeps the dust down.
I now use 200 and 1000 when using 2 wheels as my primary setup
Thanks for the great video. I appreciate the explanations you give for your decisions.
Keep up the videos man. I’m enjoying them. Thanks for all the info. -John from MA.
Thanks I appreciate you watching.
200 and 1200 grit wheels on my tormek. Awesome edges.
Just got my cbn wheel 600 grit you were 100%
Right on sharpness. Thank you for your videos. I took the 600 first and then cleaned it up with my tormek 1000 grit Hospital sharp
Yes If I had to go on location and sharpen things and could only bring one wheel to work with it would be a 600 CBN
OK since SchleifJunkies seems to want to attack my opinion let me explain a few things. I will address each of his comments. First you should know. He is a seller of wheels and things for Tormek machines. My statement about the lifetime warranty from Wood Turners Wonders is true. Here is a link to my certificate www.amazon.com/photos/shared/w0CfPoNJSNuHiB9EAKiaBQ.Z6ikaHrKfcrOSM4M65g1YS that came with my wheels you can also go to their website at woodturnerswonders.com/pages/life-time-warranty-on-cbn-wheels to read it for yourself. I only started my TH-cam Channel 7 months ago so he is correct that I do not have a lot of followers just yet but it has been growing and to be clear I am not selling anything for anyone or any particular company. I even purchased my front vertical base from him as his main competitor at the time who sold a very similar item passed away suddenly and returned my money at the time It appears they have had less than friendly relations. In fact here is the video of him accusing SchleifJunkies of violating his patents th-cam.com/video/lIGhif76OCw/w-d-xo.html My guess is that he spends his time attacking what he sees as competition to his products, but his assumptions that I buy cheap and do not do my research is incorrect. I follow several people on TH-cam related to sharpening. Some of them also recommend Woodturners Wonders like one of my favorite Stumpy Nubs he has 725K followers so if you don't think my opinion means much because I only have a few followers you can watch this video m.th-cam.com/video/Kymip4Ix4JA/w-d-xo.html
(2) Metal Dust- Yes dry grinding does make some dust. On the Tormek that only spins at 90 RPM it's not what I consider to be a lot of dust compared to many of the dust producing items in my shop 1x30 Sander ,Ken onion Ellite sharpener , Wicked Edge Sharpener and my Jet Low speed grinder they all make dust and far more than my Tormek T8. As I said in my Video for me to be able to change wheels fast not have to use water and remember with Diamond Wheels you have to buy expensive water treatment to keep them in good condition where all reasons I went to dry grinding. I also get customers who show up with just one knife and to not have to set up the water to grind one knife is also why I like CBN. To solve dust in my Shop I have a Jet dust collection system, but I also will wear a mask. It takes me far less time to put on my mask and turn on my dust collector than to get water out treat the water and set up for wet grinding. So I will just say that I have a different opinion than Hanns and as I said in my video I am a knife sharpener and the choices I made are what I felt were right for me. I do not consider my wheels cheap the Woodrurners Wonders Spartan Wheels I have cost around $200. Some have sharpened over 2000 knives and are still in great condition. My main reason for making videos on what I am doing is to help other sharpeners or people looking to start sharpening business. My goal is not to inject myself into age old arguments from people selling competing products.
Keep up the good work, I appreciate folks who take the time to produce videos for all to share. Don't waste your time with the naysayers
great video, thanks for all your info!
Your welcome glad you liked it
Great video
Great vid
Got my 600 grit cbn wheel today, I sharpened both my Benchmade edc's in just a few passes!Their both razor sharp and I am waiting now fir the 1200 grit to show up. My tormex is back in the spot light since you turmed me on to these new wheels!. No more messy wet gtinding!
It's awesome isn't it! Game Changer
@@ALXSHARPEN One day can you show the jig you use for small knives?
I mainly do free hand sharpening, but I do have a Tormek that I got with the reasoning that alot of knives are being treated like kitchen sledgehammers and immediately thrown into a dishwasher on the first day, and those arent worth the meticulous free hand work that goes into it. I will keep doing free hand forever though, both because I feel like its a dying art and I have alot of respect for the work of the really good free hand sharpeners and strive to get better, but also because I never really felt like I can get as clean, sharp and sturdy edge on the Tormek. I dont know if thats user error or something, but I would always get very nice and even bevels, but lower quality edges.
So you kinda convinced me, so I have ordered CBN wheels to give it another shot! Despite your warnings I have ended up getting a 1000 grit one to start with, mainly because im for the most part interested in the quality one can get. Planning to do the brunt of the work on something else and try finishing on that wheel. Maybe its a dumb idea but oh well, baby steps!
How's it going? In teaching Tormek to others I find that stropping and truly apexing the knife is usually the issue if your not getting the results you want from the Tormek. This is where a digital scope can be a huge help you will often see the problem area on the scope and if stropping on the Tormek it usually the person did not spend enough time on it. At 90 RPM it takes longer than other popular ways to d it faster like a 1x30 with leather or a Variable Speed Grinder with a round leather flap wheel both of which I use in my shop mostly because of speed it gets done not that the Tormek can't do it- It totally can it just takes more time
Thanks for the videos and responses to all the questions. Couple additional questions about CBN wheels - 1) any issues with using a wheel with a radius to sharpen knives? The width of the flat part of the radius wheels is reduced to around an inch depending on the wheel. Is this sufficient flat area to do the sharpening? Does it make it more difficult having a narrow flat area? I am interested in the radius to sharpen the curved part of the blade near the handle on my filet knives. 2) I have read that 1/2" pex pipe (5/8" o.d. and you can relatively easily ream the i.d. to 12 mm) can be used as a bushing so that you can use CBN wheels with a 5/8" arbor on your Tormek. Any thoughts on that idea? I would give you a lot more options on different types of wheels (flat, 4:1, mega square, radius, etc.) that you could use with the Tormek. Thanks,
For knife sharpening I don’t like the radius edge I have two CBN wheels on my slow speed grinder that have the radius and it’s harder to use so the larger the flat area the easier it is for sharpening knives I rarely need the radius so for me being that the majority of what I do is knives I like the spartan wheels because of the long flat section. I never heard about the pex trick but I think I have plenty so I can see if it fits not sure if I have a wheel of that size they also sell lots of adapters for arbors so I’d be surprised if there isn’t a way to rig it.
I like the Indy Pit Crew speed.
Hi, thanks for taking the time to make the video. I also started my own knife and tool sharpening business about a year ago with the TORMEK T8. I have the SG250, SJ250 (Japanese wheel) and the SB250 for the harder tool steels. I'm right on the edge (pun intended) of buying a 600 and 1000 grit CBN wheels from Wood Turners Wonders. My only concern is the dust, which I have none of from the TORMEK wheels. How to you manage all the sharpening dust from using dry wheels?
I made a video on what I do for dust mitigation with CBN I have far more dust in my shop from my two 1x30 , Ken Onion and CBN low speed grinders then I do from the Tormek I also own the diamond wheels but save them for super steels and ceramic knives The CBN is just super fast and convenient not have to use water and I actually love the feel of it more than the diamond. Once a week I do a good cleaning of the shop with vac and for safety I wear a good 3m mask or use my Jet dust ventilation system or both.
Can you do a video on setting the knife angle on the tormek and using the small knife jig?
Sure I can do that I don’t use the small jig much I built my own I like better but do have it.
hi Paul. Thanks a bunch for showing us your sharpening setup. I communicated with Mr.Rizza about his CBN wheels and he seems to echo StumpyNubs channel's opinion that high carbide blades should not be sharpened on CBN wheels but rather on diamonds with Tormek systems. Have you nevertheless tried sharpening steels like s110v, Maxamet, K390, zdp-189, and similar high hard-carbide steel blades on Tormek using your CBN wheels? It would be great if you could do a video discussing this important topic given most of us knife enthusiasts' penchant for using high-carbide steel knives nowadays. Hope you will rspond.
Ken Rizza is an expert so anything he says especially on his products should be listen to. I am a full time knife sharpener not a knife maker. I do know that CBN is used to cut carbide but everything I have read says it will greatly reduce the life of the wheel and I assume knowing that probably has a lot to do with why many say not to use it. CBN and Diamond perform very differently. Here is a very good article about it I do not know how long Tormek Diamond Wheels will last if a knife maker used it to grind only super steels compared to CBN. Tormek has a forum with many knife makers so maybe someone has tried both. My impression is if you used CBN you would be doing it knowing it's now a consumable and not necessarily an item that could last you a lifetime.I rarely concern myself with what kind of knife steel my customers bring in my shop and the only time I ask is when it's a homemade knife. But Ken Rizza has never given me bad advice. So if he says buying the Tormek Diamond Wheels would be best then that's clearly the best practice. Also keep in mind the SB-250 Black Stone made by Tormek is for HSS I do not own one so I can't speak to its performance as my requests to sharpen tools are pretty rare. I get the impression that most serious wood workers that use their chisels like to sharpen them themselves. I would like to know how well the SB-250 works on HSS knives now that they are becoming something we will see more of as a sharpener.
knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/CBN_AKMarticle.pdf
Now my short answer I have used it on S110V with no problem. I get a lot of Law Enforcement and military guys in my shop and many have Spyderco S110V knives. But so far I have not seen any problems with my CBN but they have long since paid for them selves so if I had to replace them I would without hesitation and would not be looking to Ken under warranty to replace my CBN I would just get another one. But I am not doing it every day maybe one in thirty of my customers is LE with a HSS knife.
@@ALXSHARPEN thank you so much for your response and experience.
Hi thanks for the video,I have a question can the 1000 CBN wheel produced a finish mirror shine like the Japanese waterstone?
I would say it's maybe partial mirror finish but. not the same as the JWS that's 4000 grit this is only 1000 grit. I'm not a fan of mirror finish on most knives. It looks pretty but not really practical for knives that people use IMO. If I was going to do a mirror finish I would probable still do a micro bevel at around 600 so the knife still had some bite. I seldomly use it. In fact I should probably sell mine. I could use the money for two CBN wheels I would use like an 80 and a 1200
Considering my first sharpening system. In my research I’ve been led to believe that CBN should be running at 3000-5500 sfpm. Are these wheels custom engineered for far lower sfpm on the tormek?
Not sure where you’re getting that info but CBN is used in everything from hand sharpening and hones and machine sharpening and low and high speed so from my experience having sharpened several thousand knives with CBN wheels on a Tormek going 90 RPM I’d say it doesn’t matter if it’s slow or fast.
Random question but is it louder using the cbn wheel vs the standard wheel with water?
I don’t think so. If it is it’s not something I have noticed and I have videos of me grinding dry II believe it’s probably close to the same only time I ever had noise that was loud was using the scissors attachment but that was also using water and I now do all scissors on a Twice AS sharp machine instead of the Tormek.
It looks like you had the wen 10 inch sharpener. If you ever mentioned what wheel diameter you are using I missed it. The t8 specs says it takes a 85/8 wheel. Are you using a 8 or 10 inch cbn wheel? Do you know if you can use a 8 inch cbn wheel on the 10 inch wen? Thanks.
10 inch CBN for the Tormek T8 are what fit the when. I use the spartan wheels from Wood Turners Wonders
You mentioned a BESS number. For most of your customers, what is the BESS for their knives? Do your customers specify a maximum number for a particular blade? Thanks...
No BESS is a number from a sharpness tester called a BESS Tester. It uses a monofilament line that gets push cut and reads the amount of pressure needed to cut that line. It’s a useful tool for sharpeners as it can give you good information about the edge of a knife and condition but it only test the one tiny spot on the blade that cust the line and a knife can have different levels of sharpness on the entire blade but it’s really cool and great for testing techniques and equipment but you should not only rely on it I use it in combination with cut test and my digital micro scope
I have a tormek and been thinking about CBN wheels. Would you go to the 1200 grit or is 1000 fine enough. Thanks
My favorite is 600 it makes wicked sharp knives I definitely wouldn’t go 1200 and probably would only go 1000 if it’s just for your knives and if you own Japanese knives the 600 grit once broken in is a great all around size grit for almost everything.
What grit CBN is equivalent to the Tormek SG 250 when the SG 250 is graded fine? Thanx
I would say the the 800 or 1000 CBN
Do you thin expensive chef knives as well?
If needed I don't get many request for thinning
Hello Alexandria Knife Sharpening, i am putting together a small operation to sharpen restaurant knives. I moved from the east coast to the ozarks and the service is non existent here. May i ask for you to put together a small list of startup essentials. I was thinking about a wen with some cbn in wheels just to start. I have 2 customers lined up for 50 knives on weekly swap.
What’s your budget to start the business. I can say I would get a 600 grit CBN that will do a huge portion of all you need. If you can afford a Tormek T8 I would make the investment over the WEN if your doing this as a business. If you’re on a real tight budget then you can definitely get the WEN and just save for better gear. I would also consider a used Tormek T8 or T7 over a WEN to start.
Nice job! Just started my sharpening business this month. Is 600 the lowest you go for kitchen knives? How are you taking out large chips?
If it’s large chip I can use the 1x30 first to prep it or I can use my 350 grit CBN wheel and I also have a 180
Could you put a cbn wheel on the Wen?
. @thomask837 YES. WEN uses the same size wheels. Other guys have vids on TH-cam with WEN's running CBN and diamond wheels
can you go from the 225 grit from Tormek to the CBN 1000 without an intermediate grit
yes you can but probably not necessary the CBN wheel cuts faster at 1000 grit than 200 grit stone wheel. I have CBN 180 and 350 and rarely need them. They remove a lot of metal I mostly use them for cleaver repairs and reprofiles. For sharpening with CBN on the Tormek I can’t see much use for anything under 400 grit. Good combinations would be 400-1000 or 600-1000 an excellent set would be 400,600,1000
@@ALXSHARPEN thank you, really appreciate your answer
Can cbn be used in water? Needs to be dried?
yes it's best to use a honing solution like hone right gold or Tormek Solution if doing it in water
Hello Paul, Im thinking of opening my own knife sharpening business. Is their some way that I could get a hold of you to talk? Thanks Ron
I’m on a few day’s vacation this week plan to be back in my shop Friday I am pretty active through the guild of professional sharpeners you can reach me through them. We also have a free trial its a great place for anyone wanting to open a sharpening business. Below is a link to the guild. Check it out and if you want we can arrange a call or zoom through them.
members.guildofsharpeners.org/share/aeqXqAOblvmmrqjI
how is the dust, sparks, etc when using the cbn wheel?
No sparks CBN runs cool there is dust but less then what my 2x42 and three 1x30s produce so the dust doesn’t concern me I do wear a good mask when I use them
@@ALXSHARPEN do you often use the spray bottle of water to cut dust down even more?
Is Tormek motor a TEFC? I could see metal dust wrecking the motor if it's not protected from the dust.
It has a really great motor many Tormeks that are over 30 years old still run great. This is what Tormek says about the motor
Industrial motor, single phase, AC
200 W (input), 100-115 V / 220-240 V, 50-60 Hz
Continuous operation
Maintenance-free
Quiet running, 54 dB
25 000 hours of operating time
Warranty
8-year warranty, 5 years + 3 years when you register at tormek.com.
Valid for professional use as well
@@ALXSHARPEN thank you!
Would that wheel fit the WEN sharpener?
Yes absolutely
@@ALXSHARPEN I’ll check up on it. Thanks!
I'm unsure, but my simple method is to use a cubitron belt (3M) (dry) & then leather strop - no wet grinding, just a belt sander. The results cut paper like confetti with little mucking about & the edges are very tough & long lasting. Even the most battered, blunted edge comes up razor using just those 2 things. I think there's a lot of "Fan" stuff involved with sharpening - as with everything. I have yet to come across a better abrasive than CBN - and the easiest "Entry" to it is to buy 3M Cubitron belts/papers - put them onto your cheap 1*30 (25*762) machine - or even a 20mm air belt sander (which is what I use). Once you try a CBN product, every other abrasive seems a bit shonky in comparison.
I love 3M Cubitron belts use them all the time for trip repairs and reprofiles but not for sharpening. IMO for what I do (Sharpening Service) it’s to aggressive for most knives if i’m sharpening on a 1x30 I am using a Trizact belt for finer grits and can go as high as 2500 If you haven’t tried them you should check them out they also last a long time like Cubitron belts do. I sharpen a lot of high end Japanese Knives many $800-$1200 dollars no way i’m taking a Cubitron belt to a knife that expensive. It also wouldn’t give the cutting performance most Japanese Knife owners expect. But sharpening is also what works for you and your needs,and if your a business your customers needs are the priority. I Love the 1x30 but it’s also to fast for really precision sharpening IMO. I am building a variable speed one for my shop, but when it comes to high end sharpening performance I still feel the Tormek T8 with CBN is King over all other methods but I accept that sharpening can be done many ways and with many tools and no one way is right or wrong.
@@ALXSHARPEN I'll go buy a Tormek and bung on a CBN wheel - I was kinda going to anyway. Just for to see.
Why are you grinding dry?
Because it’s a CBN wheel and I it doesn’t need to be in water
Congratulations. you bought one wheel for the price of two
seriously, you can not believe what you say here :) of course you have to grind dry, why? if you would use these wheels wet you have lost your warranty :) have fun breathing all the grinding dust. and then the saying, it lasts a lifetime, are you kidding? who should believe that. it is a wearing part which simply wears out after a certain time. the only thing that applies here again is: who buys cheap, buys twice. fortunately you have only 25 subscribers then not so many people have to do what you give here to the best. these plastic parts are cheapest production and not to be compared with real CBN wheels. But you will eventually find that out for yourself :)
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
@@silverbackag9790 I just feel sorry for the people who believe such bullshit. You and you are not much better you want to sell your shit no matter how but that's just junk that shows after some time of use but there are always enough people who fall for such stupid sayings.
@@schleifjunkieshannsplag8635 you need medication my man. Find yourself a psychologist and get you some modern pharma.
Dude , you talk too much...get to the subject, I'm falling asleep.
No one’s forcing you to watch
@ALXSHARPEN I like the way you roll.