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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ม.ค. 2022
- The relatively new discovery of Homo naledi provided us with a treasure trove of information, but the mysterious circumstances that surround this previously-unknown evolutionary cousin are still being worked on.
Think you might have a scenario that explains the details of the case? Post it in the comments below.
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References:
1 Berger et al. (2015) Homo naledi, a new species of the genus Homo from the Dinaledi Chamber, South Africa
2 Ruff (2009) Relative Limb Strength and Locomotion in Homo habilis
3 Kimbel, Johanson & Rak (1997) Systematic Assessment of a Maxilla of Homo From Hadar, Ethiopia
4 Meyer et al. (2016) Nuclear DNA sequences from the Middle Pleistocene Sima de los Huesos Hominins
5 Thackeray (2015) Estimating the Age and Affiniites of Homo naledi
6 Dirks et al. (2017) The age of Homo naledi and associated sediments in the Rising Star Cave, South Africa
7 Vidal et al. (2022) Age of the Oldest Known Homo sapiens from Eastern Africa
8 Dirks et al. (2015) Geological and Taphonomic Context for the New Hominin Species Homo naledi from the Dinaledi Chamber, South Africa
9 Hawks et al. (2017) New Fossil Remains of Homo naledi from the Lesedi Chamber, South Africa
10 Brophy et al. (2021) Immature Hominin Craniodental Remains from a New Locality in the Rising Star Cave System, South Africa
11 Bermúdez de Castro et al. (2004) Paleodemography of the Atapuerca: Sima de los Huesos Hominin Sample: A Revision and New Approaches to the Paleodemography of the European Middle Pleistocene Population
12 Elliot et al. (2021) Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave System, South Africa
13 Dirks et al. (2016) Deliberate Body Disposal by Hominins in the Dinaledi Chamber, Cradle of Humankind, South Africa?
14 Stiner (2017) Love and Death in the Stone Age: What Constitutes First Evidence of Mortuary Treatment of the Human Body?
15 Val (2016) Deliberate Body Disposal by Hominins in the Dinaledi Chamber, Cradle of Humankind, South Africa?
16 Dicke and Roth (2015) Neuronal Factors Determining High Intelligence
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This video came out about a year ago. Since then Lee Berger has talked about how he and his team have found the remains of fire in several places in the cave and that he has found etchings on some cave walls that look much too regular for them to be a natural occurance.
The thought of these ancient humans taking their loved ones to this cave to bury them and preserve them actually led to them being immortalised is so beautiful to me. They wanted to keep them safe in death and they succeeded
I can not speak for others, but the more I learn about these ancient Homoni, the more the sense of kinship I have with them. The fact this could be a burial chamber is a very haunting concept. To do what they did (assuming it is correct) means they had a sense of time, and with it a sense of their own mortality.
It’s entirely possible, which is wild to think about. However, can’t forget that bodily disposal can be purely practical and doesn’t necessarily imply those sorts of cognitions.
@@TheHEAP Absolutely. I do wonder about that child skull though. That did seem a very deliberate act. We will just have to wait to see if more sites are unearthed and what they might tell us either way.
They fear the deads... like we do. They put them in an inaccesible place, and we put a big, heavy, stone on them to make sure they cannot come back.
@@TheHEAP Think again perhaps? The separate disposal of familial bodies and common refuse is clearly Human. No other bones or deritus found down in the deposition area. I should be more concerned about the ink black darkness of the area and how the responsible members performing these actions of transport and placement of the bodies, communicated from one to another the expected layout of the cave and their responsibilities. Language and elevated learning skills perhaps! Grunting and gesture is not going to get it. lol
Very cool video. I totally agree with you that brain size does not equal intelligence. The brain of a crow is very tiny yet they have funerals for their dead comrades, crows can recognize faces, crows can use tools, and there is even some evidence that crows can describe the features of people to other crows.
Crows are so damn cool, man. I read an article on your last point some time ago and was blown away.
@@TheHEAP Yeah. Crows are super rad!
they are awesome and I want to befriend a crow
Brain size doesn't matter, I will agree. However, brain architecture DOES. Even an amoeba has a rudimentary self - preservation instinct and will attempt to avoid predators. This behavior does not indicate self - awareness. In order to conceptualize things like the self, and by extension, an afterlife, which is what would cause an animal to exhibit funerary rituals, a vertebrate has to have a FRONTAL LOBE. Naledi didn't possess one of those, and in fact we don't see frontal lobe development in primates until we see Neanderthaloid primates such as Neanderthal, Denisovan, or Heldelbergensis. Even among those, the only actual burials showing proof of funerary rituals found have contained hybrids with H. S. Sapiens, who were more than likely born to a Sapiens mother as a result of Neanderthal sexual predation. The presence of a foot at the end of a leg rather than a hand, or the ability to USE a tool does not make a human. A frontal lobe does.
@@Foundry_made
well...according to your science , with Neanderthal sexualy preying on our species...we would have responded by Wipeout of the predatory bastards. Just like I thought.
How's that for a frontal lobe?
Excellent presentation. The H. naledi enigma is seriously intriguing. I have to suspect that "the scene of the crime" was appreciably more than "barely accessible" when these hominins moved dead to said cave chambers . . . has to be a geological shift event(s). After all, our gracile, young and athletic volunteer paleo-cavers were challenged with the best lighting & gear we could give them. The idea that these australopith-like primates moved dead through the current gauntlet of barriers with fire light or no light is implausible. I do think the volunteers who did the hard work of accessing the chambers and excavating the fossils deserve a hand of applause! 👏👏👏😉
It’s certainly hard to imagine. They’re searching for evidence of fire (i.e. torchlight) in there now, so I’m keeping an eye in it.
Well, but we did it. And the Nadeli were anatomically more capable then we are. They were smaller and adept climbers. With a life style that don't rely on using light, they might have been more apt at dealing with darkness than we are. Also, the implausibility has to be weighted with the implausibility of other explanations. As I understand it, the looked every where for signs that there were other entrances, using very sophisticated technology and didn't find anything. How plausible is that? Idk, but maybe it is less plausible than the Nadeli entering the cave by themselves.
Yes it's tough for modern people to fit in that cave, but weren't H Naledi quite a bit smaller than us?
They did extensive geological surveys to rule out significant structural changes, and concluded that the route has not significantly changed from what H Naledi traversed.
They've also found evidence of fire!!!
This in fact makes me even more baffled.
@@Dreadybear.Ichode fire and art. Amazing.
The algorithm brought me here randomly. Great content, instantly subscribed
I like how you provide your references on screen.
Thank you! Human origins on TH-cam has a generally bad reputation, and I'd like to make sure I let folks know I do my due diligence when talking about this stuff. Very glad when the work involved gets appreciated.
Love your voice and presentation style ! Thnx !
Wicked video Riley. Interesting, suspenseful, and easy to understand all the new info. I love that you put the sources in the corner of the video as they come up!
Thanks, Liz! Glad you enjoyed it!
Seconded
@@TheHEAP 2. things. 1. the climbing might/probably be for rock climbing very few trees in that area. 2. there's two skulls that look like the skulls of homo naledi found in the 1980's-1990's but put in homo erectus when found
(i think found in kenya). 2.5 lee berger descried the 2 skulls in a video.
My personal theory is that naledi were distressed by their deceased companions being scavenged by birds and other predators. They were not big or strong enough to intimidate scavengers so instead they brought their dead to the cave where they would be out of reach.
That could be , or if they lived in permanent camps then they would not want the dead to draw scavengers or predators. Other prey species will leave the area . Predator species will often consume the dead if they are not able to leave , but they might have been removing them
Or we discovered evidence from the first known hominid serial killer.
It was a pleasure to listen this. I hope you come back.
You're so right that Naledi is so interesting! It's the most intriguing of all the other Homo cases to me. I tend to think that in there time, the cave passage ways might have been more open. After all, the earth does settle and change. As far as light, maybe there was a break somewhere distant that allowed a little bit of light.
So happy to have stumbled upon your channel. Very interesting.😊😊😊
Clicked on the hair, subed for the content! I can't wait to see this channel blow up 🙂
What a nice straightforward way to explain. Gladly subscribed!
Very glad you enjoyed it!
Got yourself another subscriber .10/10 for video and information
Nicely done. Looking forward to more.
Caves are dynamic environments, features like the 'Dragons back' may not have existed when the remains were deposited, as it appears to have been part of the roof at one time. There does also appear to have been other access points that have sealed up in antiquity (as well as a 'drain' for water to escape) - some bones have been found near the current entry point into the chamber so it's more probable the bones were washed into the location - the chamber is only about 200 feet into the cave - and with the exception of the dragons back, all down hill.
Yea, my first thought was a group of people getting caught in a flash flood and swept into the cave. A horrific thought, but I haven't seen any mention of the idea.
Just found your channel, this was very interesting, thank you.
LOVE the opening/intro graphics.
Okay that was SO good. I can’t believe I found this channel and all these deliciously smart passionate nerdy comments. And I totally have a crush on the presenter. Subscribed! This is my new favorite spot on the internet.
So so good ! I watch a lot of the videos on TH-cam and this is the BEST. Thank you 🌟
your video is more detailed than the netflix special.... thank you
Great video, great material, interesting topic and perfect presentation! Keep em coming
Great content ❤️ loved it💯
Great video! The music sounds really good
I’m way happier with this tune.
@@TheHEAP Music is too loud. Serves no real purpose. Why should it compete with the info we are really here for ?
@@dvdrtrgn I agree with the volume. Music’s been turned down in the following episode and I’m constantly working on audio where it’s a knowledge gap of mine. I understand the music itself isn’t for everyone, but it adds to the overall production quality of the show for most, and, admittedly, hides some of the flaws in the voice audio.
Your Channel is excellent and so glad I found it! TH-cam needs to push your algorithm to help it grow!
This is awesome. I can't wait for more info.
Very well presented, Keep going!!!
This was the first time I’ve seen any of your videos… you are very informative and very entertaining… I’ll be looking for more of your videos for sure…✌️😎🎸
Older information, now, but a very good presentation.
You make excellent videos and I am looking forward to more. They are well-researched, well-balanced, and well-presented. There was nothing new to me in this one as I have been following the Naledi story for some time. However, I like the idea of Lee Berger being described as "less gracile."
Thank you! I really appreciate the kind words.
'Less gracile' is part of my everyday vocabulary now (mostly self-referentially).
@@TheHEAP So, Dr. Berger lost fifty-five pounds, crawled into the cave, and then apparently discovered Nadeli used fire.
I have maintained the belief since childhood that the sophisticated behavior of Homo Sapiens is not unique but rather a culmination of traits both passed down from direct ancestors and observations of cousins. It seems more and more that anthropologists are suggesting that this is indeed the case.
Absolutely! There were a few who supported this back in the day, but we’re finding more evidence and potential ‘hints’ that this appears to be the case. It’s better supported now than it was then.
Right On nice video
Well done in 15 minutes. We are told Lee & Co. are about to come out with more findings.
Great video!!
Extremely interesting my dear Watson.. Bravo old chap, quite.. quite interesting 🤔
Fascinating video!
Cool to see someone examining competing hypothesis and explicitly stating that neither can be ruled out. I personally think that the death trap hypothesis is more plausible than the deliberate burial hypothesis. I think we have a tendency to project our own behavior onto species who (despite being classified under genus homo) would have probably demonstrated completely different behavior, so I think a lot of people have a bias towards the burial hypothesis despite the simplest explanation being the death trap.
Imagine the logistics of one situation vs the other. For the burial hypothesis, the group would have had to coordinate the behavior of multiple individuals to move a corpse of one of their group down into the cave, carried it through the PITCH BLACK tunnels for the express purpose of dropping the body down the vertical shaft into the pit, and all this begs the question, for what purpose? Well if you ask me the burial hypothesis gives US an emotionally satisfying explanation for why we find these individuals there. For the death trap hypothesis, one or two individuals would have had to wander into the cave every so often, a small bipedal hominin would have had access to exploring tight regions and perhaps their curiosity lead them to feeling their way further and further in despite it being pitch black, they crawl over an opening and plummet 12 METERS down into a pit and end up dying there, we find these remains because the pit preserves them well. Why would a mother bring their infant with them for this? Well, probably because they might very well have carried them everywhere they went. And just because we can't imagine a modern human doing this with their infant does not mean that an ancient small brained hominin would have operated with the same degree of caution or foresight.
You probably have already heard, but Hawkes might be revising the fire in the cave. It's possible that there is abundant evidence that everyone looked right past.
Great vid
I feel like I just clicked onto a PBS-offshoot show like Eons or something. This video is completely on par with their productions and yet you only have just over 1k subs? Hope that changes soon, im sure it will with videos like this! +1 Subscriber and can't wait to see more!
That’s too kind. Thank you! PBS Eons is a big inspiration for this show but I’ve still got work before I can compete with them visually. One day!
I totally agree!
I think that EONS viewers will love this channel!
How do we get them here?
@@victoriawhite3662 Love that enthusiasm!
Thanks for the video. Odd, you seem to ignore some of the more pertinent points of the similarities between ourselves and Holmo Neledi, the thoroughly modern human foot and ankle (that precludes any tree climbing beyond what we are capable of, and they are great for walking and running long distances), the extreme similarity of the Upper and Lower palate and tooth arrangement (comparable to our own modern arrangement of teeth or the indication that a similar arrangement would suggest a similar diet or Food environment). None of these have a resemblance to Australepethicine, Homo Sediba, and, Homo Habilus. I'm probably in over my head here? The mention of the curved finger arrangement could easily be a necessity to manipulate common items in their environment (closer examination of the first three joints of the finger joints of the right and left hand digits, should indicate possible overwear and distortion from limb grasping and hanging, as opposed to lighter wear from more common stresses produced by manipulation. True, there has been no indication of tools discovered, yet. However, as you expressed, it is early. Oh and one more thing, the interior of the Homo Naledi skull indicates a more modern human brain structure and arrangement in its' interior shape than any other Hominid observed-recorded. That is probably not fair considering the meager supply of alternative fossil remains for comparison. Still, food for thought. I am still glad to see your video, there should be more discussion on this subject. Sorry, we all babble with age 😑.
Really good video, thank you
Great commentary!
Somehow stumbled across this video, as a history major myself, gotta say, Great Job!
Fascinating!
holy crap how do you only have 850 subs!
6 days later and I’ve passed 1300. I think just might be working.
Very nice!
That video is well presented.
I don't think brain size is as important a factor in intelligence as we think it is.
I agree! There are many more factors at play that appear to have a larger influence than size, such as Neuron density.
thaks for your amazing content, please keep pumping those data upon us haha
Subbed. You are now in with Jared Diamond and Yuval Harari. Good company!!!
More videos! 😉👍😍
Great video. Intentional ‘burial’ is the only conclusion that makes sense.
I think some sort of death trap situation is also very possible, but actual burials sometimes look less like one than this situation does. It's certainly earned the opportunity to be explored further.
Sounds like we found the first “cemetery”. Love your content.
6:02 thought I was about to fall into the plot of the descent real quick 😅
Been meaning to watch that, haha.
THE PIT OF BONES
“Hey guys what are we gonna call this place?”
“It’s a pit… of bones…”
“That’s perfect. We’ll go with that!”
Hopefully you start making videos again. And with the new evidence about the Naledi using fire!
Overstated
unlike this comment
@@jessemiller7540 At 6:20 “The level of danger for this sort of work also can’t be understated”. Probably means cannot be “overstated”.
Good catch! I completely missed that.
do you craw through the narrow parts of the cave chest down or back down?
i have craw throw a narrow space back down before and the collar of my shirt kept on pushing on to my neck and i almost got strangled
The explorers did it chest down with one arm above their head and the other by their side.
Kinda weird I seen this video, I keep having a reoccurring dream of me and a group of friends running from a bunch of crazies and we always going deeper in a cave,dugout I don't know it was weird!.maybe they too were chased down there like I was. Just throwing my dreams at you!. Excellent video,your a great professor, teacher all around cool cat. Peace brother and thank you.
Qutstanding documentary!!!!!!!!!!!
Pastronauts! Love the term
I liked it
Homo naledi is a small bodied hominin. It would have been easier for them to access the narrower passages than modern humans due to the size difference. The real question is if they had fire to light the way in the dark sections. I also wonder if the individual remains had skeletal articulation or if the remains were a jumbled mess. Was the infant skull on the ledge the only skeletal remains found in that area?
Wow, first!
Not just first, but my first first! This is an official TH-cam achievement.
As a sedimentilogist i am fascinated by this great mystery in our bifurcated tree.
I watched a deSilva lecture first. This a nice review.
Great content, really well presented. If they coexisted with primative sapiens I have to suspect some kind of conflict may have put them there. If like to know how they were dated differently but basically dumped all in the same pile.
Thank you! Some of these bones were found in different sediments, and through some geologic science that's beyond me, they were understood to have formed at different times. Sometimes bones can move through sediments into sediments that would make their age seem older/younger than what they actually are. But in this case, we don't see any evidence of this occurring.
@@TheHEAP so a single dump is possible. They did find a bird in there, and I know the birds at my place can disturb a lot of soil in a short amount of time. One possible explanation of the different sediment layers. How did a bird get in there anyway? Can't wait to find out more.
It was an owl
@@drbigmdftnu cool, not what I suspected. Even an owl can't see in zero light. This is such a great mystery. The Dinaledy chamber must have had easy access at some point.
I would expect pointers on this channel.
is it possible to determine if the access to the final spot was easier to get to then? maybe it wasn’t such an obstacle course to deliver a body to its resting place?
Entirely possible! I haven't seen any mention of it, though.
Enjoyed the information. What i liked most was you didn't say this has to be how. To many people in your field seem to think only the way they see it can be how it was. Then more than not proved wrong and never willing to admit being wrong. The field has vast amounts of information but very little detail. Leaving all too many people into conjecture and just plan making it up as they go.
Typically it’s those hard opinions that make the loudest voices, and as a result they get more press and it becomes considered the opinion of archaeology as a whole. I think most researchers are a lot more cautious in what they choose to believe is true.
Great video. Have you ever read A City In History by Lewis Mumford?
I have not. Any good?
@@TheHEAP I first read it back in 1979 and found Mumford's ideas quite enlightening.
As someone who has explored lots of caves, I have more than once found multiple dead animals deep in caves that fall in and can’t get out. They run in the dark until they die, especially at the bottom of deep pits. Could have been trapped and killed by humans also. I watched the Netflix documentary and found the “evidence for burial” very flimsy. Could they have been buried? Sure, but the way the scientists threw out the scientific method in favor of making headlines was very suspect.
Another video pointed out that the brain to body mass in the Homo Naledi may indicate that even though the brain is small, they may have been more intelligent than some are willing to give them credit for. Nice presentation.
Very good men may fevrit task
"We'd also expect to see bite or gnaw marks on bone" - I totally heard that as bites or NOM marks...and now I wonder if that's where that came from...
Maybe a group of fifteen trying to escape danger and got trapped. Burial site would have been bigger more bodies imho
There are many more. They just havn't been excavated.
@@nookymonster1 I would like to ask those cavers if it would be possible to drag a dead body all that way to the shoot. Guess they had to get there somehow
@@robh3921 , i suspect they were strong little critters. A chimp has far more strength than a human. The naledi would be somewhere in between for strength I would guess. Given the location it must of been some form of team work to accomplish the task.
That must be the answer and makes the whole story more interesting
And these bodies were deposited over a wide range of time.
Hey thanks for great content. I've been researching this topic for a year or so. All thanks to stumbling on the rising star documentary. It's what started my interest in this mystery. Aloha
Admittedly way out of left field but if they co-existed with the much more numerous Neanderthals & Humans who had the burial concept perhaps one of those local types buried dead Naheli there for whatever reason. Or perhaps some of the Nedali were copying what they saw them doing.
Possible the cave topography changed over time? Passages may have been wider and less steep?
Beyond my knowledge to truly answer that question, but I have trouble imagining that sort of distortion in only a few hundred thousand years.
Using future tense for Naledi is very confusing.
If this is the only place where Naledi was found, wouldn't it be considered they died in the treacherous caves, and weren't brought there for burial?
Ahh I thought you were going a different route. I assumed they were trying to escape someone or something and got trapped.
Why did soo many of these pre-human peoples use such hard places to get to.. have the caves caved in at all or build up like cholesterol in blood vessels? That really is intriguing..Great video - thanks.
8:15 Oh, you’re just talking about it! ⚫️
They lived in the caves underground which is why they maintained the prehistoric trials and are just recently being found
As a bonafide claustrophobic ..... chills.
With quality content like this, you are destined to have many subscribers. One new one here.
Much appreciated!
I honestly thought this said Homo Nailed. I was like whaaaat?
Is it possible that the cave was far more accessible in the long-long-ago?
How did they manage to get into the passages without a light? The illumination must be carefully addressed. Fire 300,000 years ago? Well, perhaps, natural fire, but they required technology to make a torch. One that would last long, hours. One of these days an blocked entrance may be found?
Well... Since your video...Much more has been discovered and hypothesized about Naledi.
Apparently, it appears that they dug shallow grave plots as well as placing dead in ceremonial positions.
Apparently, Naledi had some kind of rudimentary ability to communicate with markings on the chamber walls and entrances.
And , the project is s learning more very quickly using a variety of cross analysis.
Oh, and while Naledi may have had a small brain,... Apparently, it was organized in a manner very similar to our Sapien brains.
I could go on with my own beliefs/theories.... But I'll stop here and say.
Great job by whole Naledi project scientists and interns and everyone.
Our modern human arrogance clouds our judgement all too often.
Sheltering in the upper cave and making a living above ground might benefit them. There was a whole population of them, and needs to be found nearby ! I hear there are a number of other sites that need to be examined ! Is anyone doing that ?
Lee Berger’s made reference to at least one unpublished locality. No word on what species lies within yet though.
I love this channel more with every episode 💕
early human species definitely had their own cultures and societies.
This suggests a major catastrophe(s) like eruptions or tsunamis caused the HN to flee into the furthest depths of the cave to escape. Or they were fleeing large predators. Once in that chamber they maybe didnt have the intellect nor the light to climb their way out thus were trapped there to meet their fate.
They also may have, over generations, been living in the outer parts of the cave, but recurring aforementioned catastrophes may have forced some to attempt their only other option of seeking escape deeper into the inaccessible parts of the cave.
Any evidence of the outer cave and/or the chamber being repeatedly flooded or of volcanic activity in a corresponding timeline?
how do we know it's a species and not just a variant of Erectus?
Im pretty sure I could get down there. Im also pretty sure I wouldn't try....
If this chamber is a site for disposal of the dead, it seems strange that there would be so few younger members (I know you mentioned two infants specifically, I don't think you mentioned any break down of the estimated ages). Unless they had Utopian levels of infant mortality, I'd assume that the group or groups using the cave had many children pass, so why would only two have been buried? Even though, obviously, this cave doesn't represent the bodies of EVERY member of this species, the lack of pre-adult specimens seems strange.
This could be due to preservation bias. Those small bones don’t have as good a chance at fossilization. The Leti remains are very very fragmentary.
It might also have to do with the most common cause of death per age group. It's likely many corpses would have been dragged off and eaten by predators particularly adolescent and young adults, who would be the most active foragers. Since different age groups would have different main causes of death, that is one possible reason why only certain individuals' skeletons are found and not a cross section of their entire group.
Since infant remains were found, I think my mind sort of inferred that conditions were good enough to preserve more. That's a good point I should have considered.
It still seems curious and I'd be really interested in a breakdown of the ages. I did consider, like Hapax suggested, that young might have been more often lost to predators, but I know some accounts of multiple primate species fighting off various predators even after a troop member has been killed. A strange behavior evolutionarily speaking - why risk your own life or other living individuals for an animal that is already dead - but is it really that surprising that other great apes (and some old world monkeys) react emotionally rather than, well, evolution's version of rational?
It does seem likely that Preservation Bias and predation could explain the lack of prepubescent remains found at the site, but I do wonder if it was something cultural. I think my original comment made it sound as if I didn't think it was ritualistic, when I definitely do, I just found the absence of children (especially with at least some found at the site) curious. Other primates definitely appear to have a sense of "age", definitely not in the same way as humans, but one that goes beyond merely, "sexually mature vs young individual". They have societies where individuals have different rankings or status. It would be interesting to know if the cause of death can be identified for any of the specimens, as well as age and if so if there is any sort of pattern.
@@Gildedmuse the adults would probably be killed by animals and the bodies would be lost. But the deaths of young people are caused by diseases