So if I’m following this correctly, Chen Zhaopi returned to the Chen Village and revitalized the transmission of the village art. Later Chen Zhao Kui returned to teach in the village after learning from Chen Fake in Beijing. This version was a bit different so it was called New Frame, to distinguish it from the earlier village art invigorated by Zhaopi, called Old Frame. Then apparently Chen Yu, Zao Kui’s son, taught yet another version called Gongfu Frame to distinguish it from both his father’s New Frame and the Old Frame. As another poster said, it would be interesting to know how and why Fake’s Chen evolved from the village art. Seems to me a lot of martial arts masters evolved their art upon settling in Beijing; in some cases increasing the difficulty of certain moves, or decreasing the difficulty, and otherwise making their art more visually appealing, etc. and I wonder if this resulted from the competitive Beijing environment.
Good summary 😊 the only thing which is a little unclear in the video imho is that part with Chen Yu. Chen Zhaokui taught only a little in chenjiagou and also it met on the already established Laojia practice, but Chen Yu always followed his fathers method so that's why these two versions differ. Of course, he also progressed and evolved it as that's what everyone has to do to get better, but it's the family art hence the name. The question of Chen Fake evolving his art is another. I personally think it was more of a personal development and maybe also some secrecy especially in the beginning which leaves the impression he changed it a lot while actually it was more an evolution how he taught the details of his frame 🙏🏼
@@taijiquanTV It seems as though no one really knows How/Why Chen Fake changed/improved the system, so here is another possability - While Chen Fake was in Beijing, he went to the Yang family & someone there taught him the Original method that Yang Luchan had learnt from Chen Changxing. Remembering of course that Chen Changxing had already learnt something from the Wudang master Jiang Fa & had already changed what he had learnt of the Original Chen Village system & so was likely already not teaching the Original Chen method to Yang Luchan. Yang Luchan then also learned the Original & full Wudang Internal system directly from Jiang Fa, which is How & Why Luchan was able to create his own system which is why the Original Yang Luchan system uses both the Chen & Wudang Forms, Techniques & Principles.
@@taijiquanTV This is what my earlier reply was that I can no longer see - No one seems to actually know for sure How/Why Chen Fake changed & improved the Original Chen family village method so here is another possible explanation - While Chen Fake was in Beijing he went to the Yang family & someone there taught him the original Chen method that Yang Luchan had originally learnt from Chen Changxing. Remembering that Chen Changxing had already learnt some things from the Wudang master Jiang Fa & so was likely not teaching the Original Chen method, which is why they say he was already ostracized from officially teaching the Chen method. Yang Luchan then also learnt the FULL Wudang system from Jiang Fa. This is how Yang Luchan changed the Chen style he had learnt, by combining the Chen form with the techniques & principles of the Wudang Internal system.
@@ChristianCBE there is basically no reliable info on Jiang Fa so I don't think it makes sense to refer to him like we can refer to people like Chen Fake, Yang Chengfu and these people. You present Jiang Fa as an historically reliable person with a reliable biography and so on and that's just not the case. We might think he was this it that it complete fiction and deduce things from that assumption but I think we should be clear about how much we think and how much we know from which sources 🙏🏼
@@taijiquanTV (corrected) The Chen family themselves have a painting of the Wudang master Wang Zongyue with Chen Wang Ting and say that the two men were connected. Jiang Fa was the descendant of Wang Zongyue, so it makes perfect sense that Jiang Fa & Chen Changxing were also connected.
So big vs small frame... The laojia, xinjia, and gongfujia are all big frames, what about small frames? How are they different? Also, are they saying Chen Yu further refined and improved his father's xinjia method to come up with gongfujia or is it just another name but essentially the same? Is Chen Yu's method drastically different from his father's method that it warrants a new name?
Chen Zhaokui did not call his own frame Xinjia, actually he referred to it as Laojia in at least one of his texts. So the new name was not given by him but by someone else so Chen Yu was kind of "forced" to give his method a name how should he have referred to it otherwise?
Small frame is a different line of transmission inside the Chen clan, that has evolved largely separately from large frame for many generations. They differ quite a bit in the details of body mechanics and also the form movements and applications.
This is very interesting - however . . . he does not seem to explain exactly HOW & why Chen Fake Evolved (changed) the earlier (original) Chen method of practice, which makes it different from Chen Village method. ? ? ?
@@flyfin108As I said Guan does not say exactly HOW & WHY Chen Fake changed the method but only that it WAS changed. There is always an external influence that is used to help create something new/different but Guan does not say what that was & no one seems to know. See my other comments for a potential input that caused the changed to happen.
No one seems to actually know for sure How/Why Chen Fake changed & improved the Original Chen family village method so here is another possible explanaition - While Chen Fake was in Beijing he went to the Yang family & someone there taught him the original Chen method that Yang Luchan had originally learnt from Chen Changxing. Remembering that Chen Changxing had already learnt some things from the Wudang master Jiang Fa & so was likely not teaching the Original Chen method, which is why they say he was already ostracized from officially teaching the Chen method. Yang Luchan then also learnt the FULL Wudang system from Jiang Fa. This is how Yang Luchan changed the Chen style he had learnt, by combining the Chen form with the techniques & principles of the Wudang Internal system.
That sounds highly unlikely and improbable, no story his students tell match it, it would be culturally super off as a direct heir of Chen Changxing to do that, his later form doesn't look anything like Yang especially compared to his earlier frame, there is a direct father to son line in his lineage and I could go on forever but if anyone wants to believe something like that I don't think it makes much sense to argue 🙏🏼
@@taijiquanTV For comments: 1. I recall reading a long time ago (30 years?) that Chen Fake developed his variant for Chen Zhaokui, because CZK has a longer torso and the body methods used chest folding and some other cross-body likeages. I did not hear this from anyone in the Chen family or close to the Chen Fake lineage. 2. Contrarily, I also heard that Chen Fake developed his variant to be more advanced and more clearly suggesting applications. Learning from masters was not merely practicing and studying forms, but also fighting where applications were either drilled (junior method) or spontaneously emerged (senior method). Chen village people have told me that Lao Jia Yi Lu is THE form to study to make any progress before attempting to be advanced. 3. Anyone who has seen Xiao Jia will see that the idea that it is small is NOT about smaller stances/postures or range. It's is about the smaller (more compact) size of circles and spirals, and is more advanced (in the sense that doing beyond the level of mimicry or charades) - it is generally an "older bloke" approach, not for beginner learning. Ie, it's a deeper approach for older bodies who already understand a lot. 4. I have read many comments that spiral jin/winding, and silk reeling had been taught to YLC, but he was forbidden to pass that knowledge on. Hence the DaJia Yang form (one form) lacks these things entirely with limited Dantian usage, but still has Tingjin, Huajin, etc, but relying on more linear/square stances and folding methods. Older Yang (YBH, YSH, Wu Jianquan forms/theory) made more usage of circles and subtlety - from what I have seen, which is limited). From what I have seen of WuDang/"Daoist" styles, I can't see much of that in the older Yang and Chen styles, but sort of see some in some YCF students. I personally see the Jiang Fa stories as propaganda from C20 YCF people. None of my comments are definitive or based on source material.
@@tomosborn32 thanks for the comment.👍🏼 Actually I just posted this video as I liked the way he summed things up. Tbh nowadays I like to keep things simple 😊 Training and teaching in this lineage I don't really have questions about how the frame developed. If you read Chen Xin, Gu Liuxin or Chen Zhaokuis manuscripts and learn from Chen Yu you can see a very clear continuation of the same ideas. Of course there will be personal expression, progression and thus evolution (otherwise the art would be dead). To me there is no need for any mystical explanations as it is all so clear and hands-on 🤷🏼♂️ especially by comparing things to small frame it becomes quite apparent to me how lineages develop. Btw Chen Zhaopis also developed and changed, just saying... I think this is often overlooked. Love and peace ✌🏼😉☯️
@@taijiquanTV Not culturally off at all. The Chen family have great respect for Yang Luchan. Yang luchan studied with Chen Changxing for many years. Also, are you referring to Yang Cheng Fu form? The Original Yang Luchan form is in fact VERY similar to Chen Fake's form. As I said before - Yang Luchan kept the Form structure he learnt from Chen Changxing and primarily only changed/added the techniques and principles of the Wudang Internal system from the Chang Sanfeng/Jiang Fa lineage.
@@ChristianCBE yes the forms are quite close especially the choreography with some differences. As Li Yiyu reported Yang Luchan learnt from Chen Changxing and the Yang family is openly saying it, it's normal to refer to one's teacher of course, whether from the same family or not. And there should be mutual respect of course in such a relationship 👍🏼 however, as one of the most prominent figures in one family it would not be normal to go and learn from another family. But more importantly, I don't see any reason for such an influence (nor does anyone report it to whom I talked in China) as the methods inside this frame seem even more distant from the other styles in my experience, more distant for example than the Chen Zhaopi based Laojia practice. If one has been trained in these methods it's easy to see an organic continuation from Chen Xin (as a textual example even it's small frame) to Chen Zhaokui. We have very very little biographical info on Chen Changxing and Yang Luchan anyway so that's all mostly speculation. I'd like to keep these comments below this video more focused on the Chen traditions Guan mentions and not drift off if you don't mind. 🙌🏼 I guess the other traditions can be better discussed below videos with such a focus 🙏🏼
So if I’m following this correctly, Chen Zhaopi returned to the Chen Village and revitalized the transmission of the village art. Later Chen Zhao Kui returned to teach in the village after learning from Chen Fake in Beijing. This version was a bit different so it was called New Frame, to distinguish it from the earlier village art invigorated by Zhaopi, called Old Frame. Then apparently Chen Yu, Zao Kui’s son, taught yet another version called Gongfu Frame to distinguish it from both his father’s New Frame and the Old Frame. As another poster said, it would be interesting to know how and why Fake’s Chen evolved from the village art. Seems to me a lot of martial arts masters evolved their art upon settling in Beijing; in some cases increasing the difficulty of certain moves, or decreasing the difficulty, and otherwise making their art more visually appealing, etc. and I wonder if this resulted from the competitive Beijing environment.
Good summary 😊 the only thing which is a little unclear in the video imho is that part with Chen Yu. Chen Zhaokui taught only a little in chenjiagou and also it met on the already established Laojia practice, but Chen Yu always followed his fathers method so that's why these two versions differ. Of course, he also progressed and evolved it as that's what everyone has to do to get better, but it's the family art hence the name. The question of Chen Fake evolving his art is another. I personally think it was more of a personal development and maybe also some secrecy especially in the beginning which leaves the impression he changed it a lot while actually it was more an evolution how he taught the details of his frame 🙏🏼
@@taijiquanTV It seems as though no one really knows How/Why Chen Fake changed/improved the system, so here is another possability - While Chen Fake was in Beijing, he went to the Yang family & someone there taught him the Original method that Yang Luchan had learnt from Chen Changxing. Remembering of course that Chen Changxing had already learnt something from the Wudang master Jiang Fa & had already changed what he had learnt of the Original Chen Village system & so was likely already not teaching the Original Chen method to Yang Luchan. Yang Luchan then also learned the Original & full Wudang Internal system directly from Jiang Fa, which is How & Why Luchan was able to create his own system which is why the Original Yang Luchan system uses both the Chen & Wudang Forms, Techniques & Principles.
@@taijiquanTV This is what my earlier reply was that I can no longer see - No one seems to actually know for sure How/Why Chen Fake changed & improved the Original Chen family village method so here is another possible explanation - While Chen Fake was in Beijing he went to the Yang family & someone there taught him the original Chen method that Yang Luchan had originally learnt from Chen Changxing. Remembering that Chen Changxing had already learnt some things from the Wudang master Jiang Fa & so was likely not teaching the Original Chen method, which is why they say he was already ostracized from officially teaching the Chen method. Yang Luchan then also learnt the FULL Wudang system from Jiang Fa. This is how Yang Luchan changed the Chen style he had learnt, by combining the Chen form with the techniques & principles of the Wudang Internal system.
@@ChristianCBE there is basically no reliable info on Jiang Fa so I don't think it makes sense to refer to him like we can refer to people like Chen Fake, Yang Chengfu and these people. You present Jiang Fa as an historically reliable person with a reliable biography and so on and that's just not the case. We might think he was this it that it complete fiction and deduce things from that assumption but I think we should be clear about how much we think and how much we know from which sources 🙏🏼
@@taijiquanTV (corrected) The Chen family themselves have a painting of the Wudang master Wang Zongyue with Chen Wang Ting and say that the two men were connected. Jiang Fa was the descendant of Wang Zongyue, so it makes perfect sense that Jiang Fa & Chen Changxing were also connected.
Fantastic breakdown
thank you
Está muy bien que se aclare este tema.
So big vs small frame... The laojia, xinjia, and gongfujia are all big frames, what about small frames? How are they different? Also, are they saying Chen Yu further refined and improved his father's xinjia method to come up with gongfujia or is it just another name but essentially the same? Is Chen Yu's method drastically different from his father's method that it warrants a new name?
Chen Zhaokui did not call his own frame Xinjia, actually he referred to it as Laojia in at least one of his texts. So the new name was not given by him but by someone else so Chen Yu was kind of "forced" to give his method a name how should he have referred to it otherwise?
Small frame is a different line of transmission inside the Chen clan, that has evolved largely separately from large frame for many generations. They differ quite a bit in the details of body mechanics and also the form movements and applications.
This is very interesting - however . . . he does not seem to explain exactly HOW & why Chen Fake Evolved (changed) the earlier (original) Chen method of practice, which makes it different from Chen Village method. ? ? ?
he did
@@flyfin108 I don't hear that - so what did he say?
@@ChristianCBE watch 5.33 onwards, pause if you need to
@@flyfin108As I said Guan does not say exactly HOW & WHY Chen Fake changed the method but only that it WAS changed. There is always an external influence that is used to help create something new/different but Guan does not say what that was & no one seems to know. See my other comments for a potential input that caused the changed to happen.
@@ChristianCBE if you do not understand what he says, there is nothing i can do to help you, sorry
No one seems to actually know for sure How/Why Chen Fake changed & improved the Original Chen family village method so here is another possible explanaition - While Chen Fake was in Beijing he went to the Yang family & someone there taught him the original Chen method that Yang Luchan had originally learnt from Chen Changxing. Remembering that Chen Changxing had already learnt some things from the Wudang master Jiang Fa & so was likely not teaching the Original Chen method, which is why they say he was already ostracized from officially teaching the Chen method. Yang Luchan then also learnt the FULL Wudang system from Jiang Fa. This is how Yang Luchan changed the Chen style he had learnt, by combining the Chen form with the techniques & principles of the Wudang Internal system.
That sounds highly unlikely and improbable, no story his students tell match it, it would be culturally super off as a direct heir of Chen Changxing to do that, his later form doesn't look anything like Yang especially compared to his earlier frame, there is a direct father to son line in his lineage and I could go on forever but if anyone wants to believe something like that I don't think it makes much sense to argue 🙏🏼
@@taijiquanTV For comments:
1. I recall reading a long time ago (30 years?) that Chen Fake developed his variant for Chen Zhaokui, because CZK has a longer torso and the body methods used chest folding and some other cross-body likeages. I did not hear this from anyone in the Chen family or close to the Chen Fake lineage.
2. Contrarily, I also heard that Chen Fake developed his variant to be more advanced and more clearly suggesting applications. Learning from masters was not merely practicing and studying forms, but also fighting where applications were either drilled (junior method) or spontaneously emerged (senior method). Chen village people have told me that Lao Jia Yi Lu is THE form to study to make any progress before attempting to be advanced.
3. Anyone who has seen Xiao Jia will see that the idea that it is small is NOT about smaller stances/postures or range. It's is about the smaller (more compact) size of circles and spirals, and is more advanced (in the sense that doing beyond the level of mimicry or charades) - it is generally an "older bloke" approach, not for beginner learning. Ie, it's a deeper approach for older bodies who already understand a lot.
4. I have read many comments that spiral jin/winding, and silk reeling had been taught to YLC, but he was forbidden to pass that knowledge on. Hence the DaJia Yang form (one form) lacks these things entirely with limited Dantian usage, but still has Tingjin, Huajin, etc, but relying on more linear/square stances and folding methods. Older Yang (YBH, YSH, Wu Jianquan forms/theory) made more usage of circles and subtlety - from what I have seen, which is limited). From what I have seen of WuDang/"Daoist" styles, I can't see much of that in the older Yang and Chen styles, but sort of see some in some YCF students. I personally see the Jiang Fa stories as propaganda from C20 YCF people.
None of my comments are definitive or based on source material.
@@tomosborn32 thanks for the comment.👍🏼 Actually I just posted this video as I liked the way he summed things up. Tbh nowadays I like to keep things simple 😊
Training and teaching in this lineage I don't really have questions about how the frame developed. If you read Chen Xin, Gu Liuxin or Chen Zhaokuis manuscripts and learn from Chen Yu you can see a very clear continuation of the same ideas. Of course there will be personal expression, progression and thus evolution (otherwise the art would be dead). To me there is no need for any mystical explanations as it is all so clear and hands-on 🤷🏼♂️ especially by comparing things to small frame it becomes quite apparent to me how lineages develop.
Btw Chen Zhaopis also developed and changed, just saying... I think this is often overlooked.
Love and peace ✌🏼😉☯️
@@taijiquanTV Not culturally off at all. The Chen family have great respect for Yang Luchan. Yang luchan studied with Chen Changxing for many years. Also, are you referring to Yang Cheng Fu form? The Original Yang Luchan form is in fact VERY similar to Chen Fake's form. As I said before - Yang Luchan kept the Form structure he learnt from Chen Changxing and primarily only changed/added the techniques and principles of the Wudang Internal system from the Chang Sanfeng/Jiang Fa lineage.
@@ChristianCBE yes the forms are quite close especially the choreography with some differences. As Li Yiyu reported Yang Luchan learnt from Chen Changxing and the Yang family is openly saying it, it's normal to refer to one's teacher of course, whether from the same family or not. And there should be mutual respect of course in such a relationship 👍🏼 however, as one of the most prominent figures in one family it would not be normal to go and learn from another family. But more importantly, I don't see any reason for such an influence (nor does anyone report it to whom I talked in China) as the methods inside this frame seem even more distant from the other styles in my experience, more distant for example than the Chen Zhaopi based Laojia practice. If one has been trained in these methods it's easy to see an organic continuation from Chen Xin (as a textual example even it's small frame) to Chen Zhaokui. We have very very little biographical info on Chen Changxing and Yang Luchan anyway so that's all mostly speculation. I'd like to keep these comments below this video more focused on the Chen traditions Guan mentions and not drift off if you don't mind. 🙌🏼 I guess the other traditions can be better discussed below videos with such a focus 🙏🏼