Another element in the Iliad not pictured here, is that this fight is a metaphor for Achilles choosing his own fate. In the Iliad, the prophecy is that Achilles will fight in the war and die in the war while achieving immortality, or will long a long happy life and be known by no one. Achilles is set to pull out of the war and return home to live happily ever after, when Patroclus is killed. Hector kills Patroclus (who is wearing Achille's armor) and takes Achilles armor and wears it as his own. The gods make a new set of armor for Achilles, and its magnificent compared to the old set. When Hector and Achilles duel, it's like the new immortal Achilles is dueling the old Achilles (Hector in his armor), and Achilles killing Hector is like Achilles killing his old self, killing his chance at a family and happiness, and sealing his fate per the prophecy. It's a powerful metaphor seated within an already powerful plot.
This is pretty interesting. They certainly made a point in the movie of showing how Hector had a family. It never occurred to me how that contrasts with Achilles prophecy. Also from another point of view maybe this adds to Achilles anger in that moment. He was told he couldn’t be a legendary warrior and also have a family, but here’s Hector standing before him, a legendary warrior who also had a family. Maybe on some level Achilles was jealous that Hector had both fame and love and he didn’t have to choose.
U forgot to mention that hector ran, struck by fear from Achilles. They circled the city a couple times, until Athena whispered in hectors ear pretending to be aphrodite. He turned and got fcked.
I remember seeing this fight for the first time and how emotionally crushing it was to see such an honorable warrior be picked apart and viciously killed in full view of his family he desperately wants to and ultimately fails to protect.
@@JDoe-gf5ozi dont think training harder mattered against achilles he was said to be immortal except for his ankle / achilles tendon but once he got an arrow through the weak point he lost his immortality
My favorite part of this film is when Achilles looks at the camera and says, “only Franklin Michael Viele can go toe to toe with me!” Awesome part, really spoke to me.
I remember when this movie came out, it was basically laughed at and not taken seriously. After a few decades, this movie is actually great and definitely re-watchable.
I never understood why it was criticized at the time. This was one of my most watch DVDS back in the day. Looking back though, maybe it's because so many similar, historical movies were being made at the time, after the success of gladiator. People got sick of them maybe.
Because it was inaccurate af. It was epic, and I've definitely watched the fuck out of it because I love Greek mythology. But yeah, I got shat on because it's inaccurate.
@@DarthWombat What is even accurate in a story based on myth lol. Snobby critics refuse to engage with this movie as a movie even when their job is reviewing movies, not history or myth. Now, critics demands distortion of historical facts not even for the sake of the movie's qualities, the critic circle has absolutely no integrity at all. On the other hand, gladiator 1 was praised despite basing on actual history and riddled with inaccuracy. Great movie nonetheless.
I am a huge fan and avid reader of greek philosophy. This movie was epic and a great watch. But in the story of troy, Achilles was just one of the many pieces that made this story the timeless epic that it is. Also blatant inaccuraties that anyone that glanced over Homer’s story would never make. This movie split me
Definitely. Loved the shoving and how they used their shields and Achilles his greaves. Hollywood movies tend to forget the characters are wearing armor and only have them use the weapons in their hands.
It also benefits from blows aimed at the opponent instead of blows aimed at their sword. Every strike is purposeful instead of theatrical. Even blows directed at shields are clearly designed to stagger and push and not just for an audience
One key aspect that I love about this scene, is that when Hector comes out to face Aquiles, is the background. It shows why and for what they're fighting for. Hector is fighting for his family and city, something that matters thus why its filled, whereas Aquiles is fighting for hismlef and his pride showing us an emptiness behind him, meaning he's fighting for nothing.
@@erickpalacios8904I like how Priam puts Achilles in his place though when he tries to say that Hector killed his cousin and Priam just asks Achilles how many men he had killed. That makes Achilles realize that all he’s feeling, the anger and loss, he’s dished that out to others a thousand times so he really has no right to complain now. Especially when he’s the one that brought Patroclus to Troy in the first place.
Excellent video as always. I always saw it as Duty vs Glory with Hector and Achillies. It's one of my favorite movie fights of all time. Impeccable coreography and very well-shot.
+@Peer165 Exactly. Duty over Glory. One could also say Hector was after glory also, challenging "achiles" (really Patrocolus) and slaying the famed warrior. He ACHIEVED his glory but was denied it finding out it was not Achilles. Movie does Hector wrong portraying Patrocolus as easy to detect, hence in achilles logic, hector HAD to know. Bull crap. Both Achilles and Patrocolus were blood so they had similarities, were both warriors, hence were obligated to stay fit, muscular and top of their game skill wise. ALL the Acheans thought it was Achiles as Trojans and Hector did. Physically they were basically identical,but not skill wise. Him doning Achiles armor was like seeing Achiles himself. So, this goes to my recent post, what grievance could Achilles have other than grief, to slay Hector and humiliate his body over the death of someone who CHOSE to be in the battlefield knowing full well what the results could be (live or die).
@aracelymoran2504 I think it's the fuel of grief and loss that what drives Achilles in the movie. Remember, it's not just a cousin he lost, but his "little brother" to him. One that he had hope to prevent seeing the realities of war and becoming cursed like him. In a weird way Achilles was protecting not only his "Little brother" but also a past version of himself, like youthful innocence and Naivety that patroclus represented. After losing both a younger version of himself and his "little brother" he is only filled with rage at the man who had slayed patroclus.
@@Gabriel-uz7ms Great analysis. Makes a lot of sense. Pondering over this post and I think that is what Homer was conveying in the Patrocolus/Achilles relationship. But as for grief, you'd think he would want revenge on Agamemnon and the Acheam heroes who had to have known something was off with the "Achilles" (Patrocolus) in the battlefield yet went a long with it. There must have been verbal cntact with "Achillese" to know it was not the real Achilles. It served THEM letting Patrocilus pretend to be Achilles. There is more BLAME on them than Hector who was just doing his job and what was expected in the battlefield - defeat your foe and survive for another day.
@aracelymoran2504 He was more so mad at the man who had killed Patroclus than those who indirectly killed him. A man of great pride wrath that what Achilles was, and one could say he tunnel visioned on Hector unfortunately
Hector’s wife’s reactions her worry his fathers teary eyes and then the contrast on Achilles side the cheering and the screaming. But it wouldn’t be so memorable without the aftermath, the king risking his life, Achilles weeping and kissing Hector’s feet, him telling Priam that he is a much better king than the one he follows. All of it is just perfect
I love the short scene of Achilles breathing hard. He’s winded…. And you can tell that he’s impressed. And that he loves it. You can tell he loves that he finally gets to fight a peer opponent. Just a second on the screen but it’s so great and adds so much.
I find the contrast in values between the ancient Greeks and the audience today fascinating. When the Iliad was written back then, it was Achilles who was admired. The invincible, untouchable hero who could never be defeated. But now, it is Hector who is admired. A man so driven by love for his family, his country and his sense of honor that he'll face certain death for them all.
I know that Troy is that kind of mythology adaptation where they don't put much attention on the gods if at all, but you you can almost feel the difference in this fight. Hector is good. The best even, but Achilles is war and battle and bloodshed made manifest. He is on a whole other level compared to Hector. Even an unmotivated, jaded Achilles swept through men on autopilot, but Hector gave him that motivation back. And you can tell. Sing, O Muse, of the rage of Achilles.
To me this movie is not an adaptation, but instead asks the question "what inspired the mythology?" which is a much ballsier choice. There were no gods, just men whose stories became legends, then became myth.
5:00 I've always viewed this scene as Achilles showing that he's the better of the two fighters! Purposely handicapping himself by not actually using the shield even though Hector is. I'd thought it fit with what we're shown of his braggart/glory hungry personality. Though I do really like your interpretation of Achilles realizing he needs to fight smarter against such a strong opponent 😊
I've always thought this movie was underrated when it first came out. It's a good film, and I'm not sure how any other feature length films could do a better adaptation of the sprawling epic told by Homer about the Trojan War, but it is THIS fight scene that has had me coming back to watch the film at least once a year for the better part of two decades now. Identifying Hector and Achilles as two poles, Honor and Pride, is a brilliant observation, and it's added a new shade to the fight that I hadn't consciously thought of before. This was an excellent breakdown. I'm looking forward to watching more on your channel!
I also think the fact that Achilles starts to take deep breathes shows hes not used to fighting one person for so long. One of the best fights ever on screen in my opinion
Deep breathes to me means he’s focusing more based on how he was doing it. When you are scared, nervous, or anxious it usually helps you think clearly in dicy situations. That’s my take
Troy undoubtedly changes a lot of things from the source material - Hector is not so noble in the Iliad, for instance - but Pitt’s Achilles is actually lore accurate: Homer’s Achilles is not invulnerable, he is simply very skilled, and most importantly VERY fast. The prodigious speed of his footwork is constantly referenced.
The heck, man, your videos are just great! Keep up the great work. This makes me relive the old, great epic movies we used to watch on the cassette player. I miss the good old movies that are no longer being produced for reasons we all already know.
@@felipepereverzieff1992 thanks man, glad you’re enjoying them :) Yeah they just don’t make them like this anymore (and yes for reasons we already know) but I have a feeling all that noise will die out in years to come and they’ll start putting out bangers again
To me that long shot coming out the gate made Achilles look like a predator. Like a lion on the Serengeti. "There are no pacts between lions and men 🗿" cool breakdown!
Achiles was just a self centered bloodthirsty warlord, whose thrill was the fight itself, hence his need to want to fight Hector to avenge the death of some one who voluntarily chose to go into the battlefield where death was one of the outcomes. Achiles had no reason to feel resentful toward Hector for doing his job as a warrior (slay his enemies and live another day), whereas Patrocolus failed as a warrior (dying). There was no need to humiliate Hector's dead body. A real "dick" move on his part. But fate/karma/casuality took care of Achiles and had him die is the most humiliating way - from a sissy ass arrow, not on the battlefield by a great warrior as hector's fate was.
I mean you know it’s because in the Iliad they’re lovers right? 😂😂. That’s why Achilles takes his death so personally. And not like I’m a “oh I’m so woke, put a chick in it and make her gay” way. It’s still a decent movie but it’s a bad adaptation.
I saw this movie at launch and I've always loved it. I fancied myself a bit of a movie snop when this came out when I was in high school and I remember Roger Ebert ranking this movie as "the worst movie of the year". I always liked it and I've watched this fight on TH-cam probably 100 times over the years. I'm happy people are kind of coming around on this flick - it's a lot of fun.
Another detail I liked was Achilles wasn't wasting energy with his dodges/parries. Small but precise movements so he didn't tire as quickly. Steps over a low swing at 4:58. Blocks with shield resting on his shoulder 5:53. Somehow intercepts Hectors sword with his foot in the next shot at 5:55.
The final block you mention wasn't with his foot. It was with his greaves, armor plate protecting his shins. The slash was meant to attack his calf or ankle from the rear, but he deftly turned his foot to take the slash on the greave.
@@riggit9134 Oh, it was very cool. And it really showed the level of skill Achilles had, that he could be aware of the incoming slash and instead of jumping back or trying to block with the shield or parry, he almost casually just turned his leg to block it.
The shaky cam gave it that classic, hectic, visceral fight, but after your analysis, the steady cam contributed to the feeling of watching two masters in a game of chess. It's incredible!
Troy has always been severely underrated and undervalued. Seriously EVERYTHING about it is magnificently produced. I can’t wait for my son (6 years old) to get older so we can watch these epic tales of mythology together and discuss their thematic relevance to the human experience.
Something that sells Achilles mythic fighting prowess, at least for me, is that in almost any other movie like this, a protagonist would block an attack. But often Achilles will move his leg or whatever out of the way instead. IMO that feels like something you could only do if you were so unbelievably skilled you’re almost divine.
i never got this as a kid but now that you point it out ,you're right. Achilles already knows he's going to win but he's trying to learn from hector. he knows that troy will funnel all their knowledge about sword fighting to help their elite, hector. and by fighting him Achilles is learning all that troy has to offer. Achilles is here to do two things: get revenge and learn the capabilities of troy. this is why he holds his position. he's not just an excellent fighter but a brilliant strategist
And for once, they used shields well, and for a long part of the duel, before discarding them. The fight is just so good! So many phases, and it's true storytelling, showing their differing characters through movement rather than just dialogue. Still my favourite Hollywood weapons fight scene of all time.
Thank you so much for this. Your insight into the composition of these scenes as a whole was enlightening; and fascinating to think about. Definitely going to sub.
God, that shot of Hector removing his helmet will always piss me off. Such a high budget film and they can't give a main character an actual metal helmet for a closeup shot of him removing it during his climactic appearance in the film. The fucking helmet flexes so blatantly, like the rubber it clearly is, and it drives me insane. It's one thing to have hilariously obvious rubber armor in Sci-fi miniseries or Star Trek type low budget TV stuff, but here? You couldn't find room in the budget for ONE metal helmet? FOH
Great vid. The whole "honor vs. pride/glory" really works well: Hector's strength came from duty and honor. When he reached for glory, all he got was shame by looking the fool by killing the wrong guy (and wearing Achilles' armor in the Iliad, "wearing glory"), and that shame weakened him. Hence he displayed cowardice in the Iliad, and in both the film and book his new weakness doomed him against Achilles. Achilles' strength came from pride and glory. In the Iliad Hector (symbolizing honor) prophesized Achilles' death; when Achilles "killed duty & honor" it cursed him. When he went even further and forgot his glory, and instead became obsessed with vengeance by desecrating Hector's corpse, he poisoned everyone's view of him, including himself and the gods. His glory and pride were stained, he was cursed by honor, and this stain and curse doomed him. If Hector remained true, and didn't seek false glory, he would not have been killed by Achilles. If Achilles remained true to his path of glory, he wouldn't have sent Patroclus off to die, he wouldn't have been cursed by the death of honor or stained by his vengeance, and so he would not have been killed by Paris. I guess the Iliad is saying to stay true to your path.
I always felt that Hector was weakened in the fight by the guilt that he felt for killing patroclus, Achilles cousin who was only a child who pretended to be Achilles to face off against hector. There may have been a chance for victory for ha if his heart was in the fight. Now I believe that Achilles was a better warrior, he seems to be portrayed as such in the film. But you can defeat someone in battle who is better than you, everyone is capable for a moment of being 110 or 120 or 150% of what they are
Brad Pitt's gymnastics coach for this movie was a man named John Climaco. A teacher at Crossroads. He helped Brad with his form so the the fight choreography will be as epic as possible.
This reminds me of watching top level Starcraft players where they're completely meticulously managing their entire army, adapting to their opponents, thinking 3 steps ahead while making split second decisions in the present. As someone who has played Starcraft for 25 years, my game play looks haphazard, chaotic and reactive, like I'm always a step behind just hoping to get a lucky break. The deliberateness of Achilles's movements make you realize why he is so confident and why it's not just luck that he's never fallen in battle.
0:49, From a narrative standpoint, this film does a fantastic job of playing with perspective in regards to its protagonists and antagonists, in having Achilles, our primary protagonist, be more of a villain (as in a character with not just negative traits, but a primarily detrimental effect on their world and themselves with their presence and actions) with his pride, cynicism and search of indulgence, glory and spite towards his abusive leader while Hector, who is set up as an antagonist for Achilles, is a hero (as in a character with not just positive traits, but a primarily beneficial effect on their world and themselves with their presence and actions) defined not just by honor, but by humility, faithfulness, compassion and love for his family and home. Hector also contrasts with Achilles' confidence and reliance on sheer prowess with his courage and reliance on strategy, one thinking fear, doubt and guilt are beneath him while the other accepts he is fallible and mortal but still tries to do what good he can while he is able. Agamemnon may be the overarching villain, as it is his greed and disregard for life that make him the most detrimental character in the story and seeing him through Achilles' hateful perspective makes him more sympathetic, as by comparison, he has enough honor to value his companion's lives and even has love for his relatives despite his own greedy nature, but it is ultimately those detrimental traits that end up dominating his story. On top of simply being a great retelling of an old Greek myth, it manages to hone in on what makes Greek myths a great model for storytelling in general.
I'd like to add that the sequence where Hector attacks Achilles, it is in that moment that Hectors fluid movements mimic Achilles. For a brief moment Hector is 'in the zone' allowing him to scratch Achilles. I think in that moment Hector wins. It shows that Achilles isnt a demi-God and this his skill can be attained by other humans. Achille only survives by luck and not skill since Achilles clearly didn't 'plan' to be scratched and if Hector was a 1 cm closer, he would have gashed Achilles.
Thanks for the insights! Its scenes like these that show why this movie is still watched and remembered. Very well made video, very insightful, and the point made about shaky cam is pretty crisp. Its a shame that this movie was made during the early 00's era of edglelord film critics that hated things like the prequels, van helsing, and you know, FUN. I'm still waiting for nay-sayers to point me to the Iliad film thats anywhere near as comprehensive or good as this. But sure, films be having flaws, i guess.
@@jeremiahalonzo glad you enjoyed it :) Yeah I agree, it might be a bit “Hollywood” but it’s still an epic experience watching this movie. Very underrated piece of cinema in my opinion
I will never forget watching this movie in theater. At the beginning when Agamemnon is wondering where Achilles is, saying "Where is he?!", then someone in the audience yelled "it's Brad Pitt, he's out getting laid"... then of course the next scene is the kid finding him in his tent with two women. Whole theater cracked up. It was perfect.
@@Tuckerm50 how is it like a predator stalking it's prey when he disengage and jogs around? Real life animal predator don't disengage when they are close to their prey,plus jogging around is not stalking lol
I always found this to be one of the most realistic sword fights like this. Also can we take a moment to appreciate how atheletic Brad used to be. He looked like a gazelle pit there
I like because it does a good job of elevating Hector as opposed to the Homer version where he gets visibly stirred and gets chased around the city of Troy three times until his demise.
While I have always despised the removal of the role of the gods and other mythical beings that took part in the story of the Trojan war. I always admired the portayal of the actors involved in their parts. Wonderful casting job all around.
I was very happy they did not stick too close to Homers book. Having Achilles chase Hector several times around the city is more fitting to a Benny Hill scetch then an epic tale. Same goes for the gods. No one needs Ares, God of War, to run back to daddy Zeus to whine about those mortals daring to hurt him in battle (when they didn't even know it was him as he was concealed).
Anyone know where i can find a video about Pitt's training and choreography from this film? All that's talked about is his diet and exercise. And great video btw!
I know that Eric Bana and Pitt had a bet that when practicing this fight, every time one of them hit the other by accident they owed them $50. Pitt ended up owing Bana a fair bit of money
People weren't happy with the movie because it wasn't faithful to the source material, and overall they do have a legitimate point, but personally I really liked how they presented Hector. Hector in the Iliad spent half the war running away from Achilles. My main gripe with the film is that it was overtly humanist and secularist, which is almost the opposite of the Iliad.
Even though I fully expected Achilles to win, watching everyone was saying last goodbyes instead of showing Hector support as he went into battle was infuriating.
I loved this whole fight scene. However I felt it was diminished in the directors cut when a new score was dubbed over it. The theatrical cut and original sound mixing for that scene was so much better. because it enhanced the tension almost pretty much invokes the audience to hold its breath while you see this fight play out
Achilles fights with a lot more thrusts while Hector does a lot of swinging. Thrusts are better at penetrating armor and they look much more intentional than swinging. Hector swats at space where Achilles might be while Achilles is always stabbing to end the fight. Achilles stands alone. He is an exception and has no need for the support of others. Hector stands for his people and has the social weight of so many watching from the walls. Hector was set up to dutifully walk to his own slaughter.
Achilles's style is proactive. Hector's style is reactive. Achilles's movements are balanced with a great economy of movement and fluid. One form flows into the next.
Let's not forget the incredible tribal drum score used during the theatrical cut of this fight. I hate they replaced it for the director's cut version.
I love your analysis, but while you focus solely on the visual, I feel the audio is just as important. If you listen closely, you'll notice that only Hector is making noise during the fight. Throughout the battle, Hector is constantly making grunts, gasps, and groans while Achilles makes no sound at all, no signs of distress or fatigue. Similar to your visual assessment of Achilles near domination of the fracas, there is also the auditory aspect of his superiority. It's an almost unnoticeable aspect of Wolfgang Peterson's vision to this masterpiece of cinema. Too bad they don't make them like they used ta....
Where has the theatrical version gone... such a sad ordeal, the music in the Director's cut ruins the whole thing for me. Appreciate this essay though, I love this fight scene as well.
@@profundus8946 yeah I agree, the theatrical version is epic. I believe they lost the rights to the song after the cinematic release and had to change it… I think. Thanks for watching :)
Achilles wanted everyone to love him because he hated himself. You can see just how much hatred he has for himself.When he breaks down and cries over hector's body.
My dad would joke that Achilles was going to be out of stamina for the fight because he was outside the gate yelling “HECTOR!!!” for too long 😂
Hmm interesting point tho
Idk why Hector couldn’t just go up the top of the walls and yell down. “Hey I’m Coming!”
Core memory
He’s not wrong
@@andydufresnefromshawshank5866 🤣
Another element in the Iliad not pictured here, is that this fight is a metaphor for Achilles choosing his own fate. In the Iliad, the prophecy is that Achilles will fight in the war and die in the war while achieving immortality, or will long a long happy life and be known by no one. Achilles is set to pull out of the war and return home to live happily ever after, when Patroclus is killed. Hector kills Patroclus (who is wearing Achille's armor) and takes Achilles armor and wears it as his own. The gods make a new set of armor for Achilles, and its magnificent compared to the old set. When Hector and Achilles duel, it's like the new immortal Achilles is dueling the old Achilles (Hector in his armor), and Achilles killing Hector is like Achilles killing his old self, killing his chance at a family and happiness, and sealing his fate per the prophecy. It's a powerful metaphor seated within an already powerful plot.
Spot on! I really appreciate this comment.
This is pretty interesting. They certainly made a point in the movie of showing how Hector had a family. It never occurred to me how that contrasts with Achilles prophecy.
Also from another point of view maybe this adds to Achilles anger in that moment. He was told he couldn’t be a legendary warrior and also have a family, but here’s Hector standing before him, a legendary warrior who also had a family. Maybe on some level Achilles was jealous that Hector had both fame and love and he didn’t have to choose.
One standing slow clap for that explanation... it just made the movie even better for me
U forgot to mention that hector ran, struck by fear from Achilles. They circled the city a couple times, until Athena whispered in hectors ear pretending to be aphrodite. He turned and got fcked.
I remember seeing this fight for the first time and how emotionally crushing it was to see such an honorable warrior be picked apart and viciously killed in full view of his family he desperately wants to and ultimately fails to protect.
Right! You want Achilles to STOP
He should have trained harder.
@@JDoe-gf5oz why?
I was cheering for achilles cause hes achilles
@@JDoe-gf5ozi dont think training harder mattered against achilles he was said to be immortal except for his ankle / achilles tendon but once he got an arrow through the weak point he lost his immortality
I won't let a stone steal my glory is such a badass line
There are no pacts between lions and men
My favorite part of this film is when Achilles looks at the camera and says, “only Franklin Michael Viele can go toe to toe with me!” Awesome part, really spoke to me.
"There are no pacts between lions and men" is some next level dialogue
I remember when this movie came out, it was basically laughed at and not taken seriously. After a few decades, this movie is actually great and definitely re-watchable.
Yeah definitely
It’s such an epic
I never understood why it was criticized at the time. This was one of my most watch DVDS back in the day.
Looking back though, maybe it's because so many similar, historical movies were being made at the time, after the success of gladiator.
People got sick of them maybe.
Because it was inaccurate af. It was epic, and I've definitely watched the fuck out of it because I love Greek mythology. But yeah, I got shat on because it's inaccurate.
@@DarthWombat What is even accurate in a story based on myth lol. Snobby critics refuse to engage with this movie as a movie even when their job is reviewing movies, not history or myth. Now, critics demands distortion of historical facts not even for the sake of the movie's qualities, the critic circle has absolutely no integrity at all. On the other hand, gladiator 1 was praised despite basing on actual history and riddled with inaccuracy. Great movie nonetheless.
I am a huge fan and avid reader of greek philosophy. This movie was epic and a great watch. But in the story of troy, Achilles was just one of the many pieces that made this story the timeless epic that it is. Also blatant inaccuraties that anyone that glanced over Homer’s story would never make. This movie split me
Shaky camera is the greatest disgrace of the hacks dabbling in cinema. This fight is shot like a poetry in motion.
@@Zed-fq3lj 100%
Shaky cam is the shortcut to be able to not pay people to learn how to fight and dance.
Shaky cam isn't always bad. It has it's place when not overused.
The choreography in this film was awesome.
Yes, it was the first time I thought that spear fighting is cool
even with its flaws its still a great movie years later
Definitely. Loved the shoving and how they used their shields and Achilles his greaves. Hollywood movies tend to forget the characters are wearing armor and only have them use the weapons in their hands.
The assault on Apolo's temple ❤
Agree😂 @@Diogolindir
Might want to put a spoiler alert, the story has only been around 2,700 years.
Great breakdown man!
😂
Haha
It also benefits from blows aimed at the opponent instead of blows aimed at their sword. Every strike is purposeful instead of theatrical. Even blows directed at shields are clearly designed to stagger and push and not just for an audience
Yeah that’s the worst when they’re just swinging at each others swords and it’s obvious. Like the fight from the Last Jedi, it just looks ridiculous.
Yes! Almost always lacking these days.
One key aspect that I love about this scene, is that when Hector comes out to face Aquiles, is the background.
It shows why and for what they're fighting for.
Hector is fighting for his family and city, something that matters thus why its filled, whereas Aquiles is fighting for hismlef and his pride showing us an emptiness behind him, meaning he's fighting for nothing.
He's fighting for pratoklos too
achilles wins.
Or you could also imagine it's Achilles fighting for the one thing he cares/cared about other than himself: patroclus.
@@erickpalacios8904I like how Priam puts Achilles in his place though when he tries to say that Hector killed his cousin and Priam just asks Achilles how many men he had killed. That makes Achilles realize that all he’s feeling, the anger and loss, he’s dished that out to others a thousand times so he really has no right to complain now. Especially when he’s the one that brought Patroclus to Troy in the first place.
I love that one shot where Achilles takes a deep breath, you can see it in the face its the first time a fight has gone this long
Excellent video as always. I always saw it as Duty vs Glory with Hector and Achillies.
It's one of my favorite movie fights of all time. Impeccable coreography and very well-shot.
+@Peer165 Exactly. Duty over Glory. One could also say Hector was after glory also, challenging "achiles" (really Patrocolus) and slaying the famed warrior. He ACHIEVED his glory but was denied it finding out it was not Achilles. Movie does Hector wrong portraying Patrocolus as easy to detect, hence in achilles logic, hector HAD to know. Bull crap. Both Achilles and Patrocolus were blood so they had similarities, were both warriors, hence were obligated to stay fit, muscular and top of their game skill wise. ALL the Acheans thought it was Achiles as Trojans and Hector did. Physically they were basically identical,but not skill wise. Him doning Achiles armor was like seeing Achiles himself. So, this goes to my recent post, what grievance could Achilles have other than grief, to slay Hector and humiliate his body over the death of someone who CHOSE to be in the battlefield knowing full well what the results could be (live or die).
@aracelymoran2504 I think it's the fuel of grief and loss that what drives Achilles in the movie. Remember, it's not just a cousin he lost, but his "little brother" to him. One that he had hope to prevent seeing the realities of war and becoming cursed like him. In a weird way Achilles was protecting not only his "Little brother" but also a past version of himself, like youthful innocence and Naivety that patroclus represented. After losing both a younger version of himself and his "little brother" he is only filled with rage at the man who had slayed patroclus.
@@Gabriel-uz7ms Great analysis. Makes a lot of sense. Pondering over this post and I think that is what Homer was conveying in the Patrocolus/Achilles relationship. But as for grief, you'd think he would want revenge on Agamemnon and the Acheam heroes who had to have known something was off with the "Achilles" (Patrocolus) in the battlefield yet went a long with it. There must have been verbal cntact with "Achillese" to know it was not the real Achilles. It served THEM letting Patrocilus pretend to be Achilles. There is more BLAME on them than Hector who was just doing his job and what was expected in the battlefield - defeat your foe and survive for another day.
@aracelymoran2504 He was more so mad at the man who had killed Patroclus than those who indirectly killed him. A man of great pride wrath that what Achilles was, and one could say he tunnel visioned on Hector unfortunately
Hector’s wife’s reactions her worry his fathers teary eyes and then the contrast on Achilles side the cheering and the screaming. But it wouldn’t be so memorable without the aftermath, the king risking his life, Achilles weeping and kissing Hector’s feet, him telling Priam that he is a much better king than the one he follows. All of it is just perfect
I love the short scene of Achilles breathing hard. He’s winded…. And you can tell that he’s impressed. And that he loves it. You can tell he loves that he finally gets to fight a peer opponent. Just a second on the screen but it’s so great and adds so much.
Dude you are so correct, the shaky handheld view made this fight completely different. The static camera gives so much more control to Achilles.
I find the contrast in values between the ancient Greeks and the audience today fascinating. When the Iliad was written back then, it was Achilles who was admired. The invincible, untouchable hero who could never be defeated. But now, it is Hector who is admired. A man so driven by love for his family, his country and his sense of honor that he'll face certain death for them all.
Some academics have thought Homer had far more sympathy for the Trojans, even if his Greek audience largely missed it.
Nah, not really. It was clearly more about Hector even back then. Which is a bit of a cliché tbh.
It was Achilles circling-round after the first clash of the shields…man the choreography is crazy…that pose with his shield overheard and sword out 🔥🔥
I know that Troy is that kind of mythology adaptation where they don't put much attention on the gods if at all, but you you can almost feel the difference in this fight. Hector is good. The best even, but Achilles is war and battle and bloodshed made manifest. He is on a whole other level compared to Hector.
Even an unmotivated, jaded Achilles swept through men on autopilot, but Hector gave him that motivation back. And you can tell. Sing, O Muse, of the rage of Achilles.
To me this movie is not an adaptation, but instead asks the question "what inspired the mythology?" which is a much ballsier choice. There were no gods, just men whose stories became legends, then became myth.
5:00 I've always viewed this scene as Achilles showing that he's the better of the two fighters! Purposely handicapping himself by not actually using the shield even though Hector is. I'd thought it fit with what we're shown of his braggart/glory hungry personality. Though I do really like your interpretation of Achilles realizing he needs to fight smarter against such a strong opponent 😊
Is he really glory hungry thought? He cuts through his enemies with economy and only toys with Hector out of anger because Hector murdered his cousin.
The fight was pretty awesome in many ways, including the shot choices, positioning, etc.
This film is one of my favorite war films of all time. It’s a beautiful portrayal even though the subject matter is so grim.
Such a great analysis. Thank you. I think it's one of the best fights ever shot.
@@mordaen850 glad you enjoyed it :)
I fucking love film analysis and psychology breakdowns of movies!
Me too! :)
I've always thought this movie was underrated when it first came out. It's a good film, and I'm not sure how any other feature length films could do a better adaptation of the sprawling epic told by Homer about the Trojan War, but it is THIS fight scene that has had me coming back to watch the film at least once a year for the better part of two decades now. Identifying Hector and Achilles as two poles, Honor and Pride, is a brilliant observation, and it's added a new shade to the fight that I hadn't consciously thought of before.
This was an excellent breakdown. I'm looking forward to watching more on your channel!
@@flatcat6676 Yeah it’s such an underrated epic this film!
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed it :)
I also think the fact that Achilles starts to take deep breathes shows hes not used to fighting one person for so long. One of the best fights ever on screen in my opinion
Deep breathes to me means he’s focusing more based on how he was doing it. When you are scared, nervous, or anxious it usually helps you think clearly in dicy situations. That’s my take
Troy undoubtedly changes a lot of things from the source material - Hector is not so noble in the Iliad, for instance - but Pitt’s Achilles is actually lore accurate: Homer’s Achilles is not invulnerable, he is simply very skilled, and most importantly VERY fast. The prodigious speed of his footwork is constantly referenced.
Perfect in depth video on this iconic fight and characters
The heck, man, your videos are just great! Keep up the great work.
This makes me relive the old, great epic movies we used to watch on the cassette player.
I miss the good old movies that are no longer being produced for reasons we all already know.
@@felipepereverzieff1992 thanks man, glad you’re enjoying them :)
Yeah they just don’t make them like this anymore (and yes for reasons we already know) but I have a feeling all that noise will die out in years to come and they’ll start putting out bangers again
Only the Viper vs the Mountain held as much gravitas as this fight. Please do that breakdown as well. Great job... liked and subbed!
Oooo good suggestion! I’ll add that to my list and look into it :)
Glad you enjoyed the video!
You forgot about one of the most famous sword fights in cinema history, Inigo Mantoya against the Man in Black.
To me that long shot coming out the gate made Achilles look like a predator. Like a lion on the Serengeti. "There are no pacts between lions and men 🗿" cool breakdown!
Achiles was just a self centered bloodthirsty warlord, whose thrill was the fight itself, hence his need to want to fight Hector to avenge the death of some one who voluntarily chose to go into the battlefield where death was one of the outcomes. Achiles had no reason to feel resentful toward Hector for doing his job as a warrior (slay his enemies and live another day), whereas Patrocolus failed as a warrior (dying). There was no need to humiliate Hector's dead body. A real "dick" move on his part. But fate/karma/casuality took care of Achiles and had him die is the most humiliating way - from a sissy ass arrow, not on the battlefield by a great warrior as hector's fate was.
I mean you know it’s because in the Iliad they’re lovers right? 😂😂.
That’s why Achilles takes his death so personally.
And not like I’m a “oh I’m so woke, put a chick in it and make her gay” way.
It’s still a decent movie but it’s a bad adaptation.
I saw this movie at launch and I've always loved it. I fancied myself a bit of a movie snop when this came out when I was in high school and I remember Roger Ebert ranking this movie as "the worst movie of the year". I always liked it and I've watched this fight on TH-cam probably 100 times over the years.
I'm happy people are kind of coming around on this flick - it's a lot of fun.
4:45 No wasted movements! His side step was used to block the blade with his shin guard while strengthening his stance! 😎
@@tolucafan101 Yeah! It’s seriously such an underrated choreographed fight 👏🏽
This is such a cool analysis, thanks for all the work, really enjoyed this.
Thanks :) Glad you enjoyed it!
Got this in my recommendations. You’re absolutely right…
Epic!
Troy is one of my favorite films. Excellent breakdown!
@@fgstech4857 glad you enjoyed it!
Another detail I liked was Achilles wasn't wasting energy with his dodges/parries. Small but precise movements so he didn't tire as quickly.
Steps over a low swing at 4:58.
Blocks with shield resting on his shoulder 5:53.
Somehow intercepts Hectors sword with his foot in the next shot at 5:55.
The final block you mention wasn't with his foot. It was with his greaves, armor plate protecting his shins. The slash was meant to attack his calf or ankle from the rear, but he deftly turned his foot to take the slash on the greave.
@Michael-dy2lb Ok, that makes sense. It looked cool so I figured I'd share lol.
@@riggit9134 Oh, it was very cool. And it really showed the level of skill Achilles had, that he could be aware of the incoming slash and instead of jumping back or trying to block with the shield or parry, he almost casually just turned his leg to block it.
I still hear the sounds -- incredible sound design in Troy
The shaky cam gave it that classic, hectic, visceral fight, but after your analysis, the steady cam contributed to the feeling of watching two masters in a game of chess. It's incredible!
Jesus man im glad i found your channel about two months back and gladER that i subscribed.. your videos are immaculately sublime
@@VanDammagge thanks :) Glad you’re enjoying them!
Starting to really love your channel mate. Brilliant. 👍
Troy has always been severely underrated and undervalued. Seriously EVERYTHING about it is magnificently produced. I can’t wait for my son (6 years old) to get older so we can watch these epic tales of mythology together and discuss their thematic relevance to the human experience.
Something that sells Achilles mythic fighting prowess, at least for me, is that in almost any other movie like this, a protagonist would block an attack. But often Achilles will move his leg or whatever out of the way instead. IMO that feels like something you could only do if you were so unbelievably skilled you’re almost divine.
Diane Kruger could get it back during this movie, I always wished she was in more movies. Pitt was in inglorious bastards with her too
Rose Byrne mogs her though.
This was a great scene, thanks for the breakdown!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great analysis.
This movie was before people came to respect Brad Pitt as a genuine actor. Absolute legend.
i never got this as a kid but now that you point it out ,you're right. Achilles already knows he's going to win but he's trying to learn from hector. he knows that troy will funnel all their knowledge about sword fighting to help their elite, hector. and by fighting him Achilles is learning all that troy has to offer. Achilles is here to do two things: get revenge and learn the capabilities of troy. this is why he holds his position. he's not just an excellent fighter but a brilliant strategist
This is one of those films you never want to see end. You want the stories to continue on and on and on.
And for once, they used shields well, and for a long part of the duel, before discarding them. The fight is just so good! So many phases, and it's true storytelling, showing their differing characters through movement rather than just dialogue. Still my favourite Hollywood weapons fight scene of all time.
Thank you so much for this. Your insight into the composition of these scenes as a whole was enlightening; and fascinating to think about. Definitely going to sub.
Thanks :) Glad you enjoyed it!
“A good death is its own reward” - The Man of Steel
God, that shot of Hector removing his helmet will always piss me off. Such a high budget film and they can't give a main character an actual metal helmet for a closeup shot of him removing it during his climactic appearance in the film. The fucking helmet flexes so blatantly, like the rubber it clearly is, and it drives me insane. It's one thing to have hilariously obvious rubber armor in Sci-fi miniseries or Star Trek type low budget TV stuff, but here? You couldn't find room in the budget for ONE metal helmet? FOH
Of course they would never take off their helmets in battle in the first place.
I always just assumed it had some leather segments and that's what made it flex, but I see your point.
First time here. Liked. Subscribed.
Thank you :)
Great vid.
The whole "honor vs. pride/glory" really works well:
Hector's strength came from duty and honor. When he reached for glory, all he got was shame by looking the fool by killing the wrong guy (and wearing Achilles' armor in the Iliad, "wearing glory"), and that shame weakened him. Hence he displayed cowardice in the Iliad, and in both the film and book his new weakness doomed him against Achilles.
Achilles' strength came from pride and glory. In the Iliad Hector (symbolizing honor) prophesized Achilles' death; when Achilles "killed duty & honor" it cursed him. When he went even further and forgot his glory, and instead became obsessed with vengeance by desecrating Hector's corpse, he poisoned everyone's view of him, including himself and the gods. His glory and pride were stained, he was cursed by honor, and this stain and curse doomed him.
If Hector remained true, and didn't seek false glory, he would not have been killed by Achilles.
If Achilles remained true to his path of glory, he wouldn't have sent Patroclus off to die, he wouldn't have been cursed by the death of honor or stained by his vengeance, and so he would not have been killed by Paris.
I guess the Iliad is saying to stay true to your path.
I always felt that Hector was weakened in the fight by the guilt that he felt for killing patroclus, Achilles cousin who was only a child who pretended to be Achilles to face off against hector. There may have been a chance for victory for ha if his heart was in the fight. Now I believe that Achilles was a better warrior, he seems to be portrayed as such in the film. But you can defeat someone in battle who is better than you, everyone is capable for a moment of being 110 or 120 or 150% of what they are
+@JonathanKeys-f3m Hardly a child, but frown enough to pass for Achilles.
Brad Pitt's gymnastics coach for this movie was a man named John Climaco. A teacher at Crossroads. He helped Brad with his form so the the fight choreography will be as epic as possible.
Holding your shield behind you when your opponent is in front of you is brilliant!
Brilliant video. How have you only got 640 views on it????
@@onderguler1994 thanks :) Glad you enjoyed it!
Haha your guess is as good as mine!
Algorithm issues.
such a great analysis
Thanks :) Glad you enjoyed it!
Brilliant break down 👏 thank you
This reminds me of watching top level Starcraft players where they're completely meticulously managing their entire army, adapting to their opponents, thinking 3 steps ahead while making split second decisions in the present. As someone who has played Starcraft for 25 years, my game play looks haphazard, chaotic and reactive, like I'm always a step behind just hoping to get a lucky break. The deliberateness of Achilles's movements make you realize why he is so confident and why it's not just luck that he's never fallen in battle.
0:49, From a narrative standpoint, this film does a fantastic job of playing with perspective in regards to its protagonists and antagonists, in having Achilles, our primary protagonist, be more of a villain (as in a character with not just negative traits, but a primarily detrimental effect on their world and themselves with their presence and actions) with his pride, cynicism and search of indulgence, glory and spite towards his abusive leader while Hector, who is set up as an antagonist for Achilles, is a hero (as in a character with not just positive traits, but a primarily beneficial effect on their world and themselves with their presence and actions) defined not just by honor, but by humility, faithfulness, compassion and love for his family and home.
Hector also contrasts with Achilles' confidence and reliance on sheer prowess with his courage and reliance on strategy, one thinking fear, doubt and guilt are beneath him while the other accepts he is fallible and mortal but still tries to do what good he can while he is able.
Agamemnon may be the overarching villain, as it is his greed and disregard for life that make him the most detrimental character in the story and seeing him through Achilles' hateful perspective makes him more sympathetic, as by comparison, he has enough honor to value his companion's lives and even has love for his relatives despite his own greedy nature, but it is ultimately those detrimental traits that end up dominating his story.
On top of simply being a great retelling of an old Greek myth, it manages to hone in on what makes Greek myths a great model for storytelling in general.
The extreme wide shot showing Hector standing between Achilles and the castle probably also symbolizes the city being at stake if Hector falls.
I'd like to add that the sequence where Hector attacks Achilles, it is in that moment that Hectors fluid movements mimic Achilles. For a brief moment Hector is 'in the zone' allowing him to scratch Achilles. I think in that moment Hector wins. It shows that Achilles isnt a demi-God and this his skill can be attained by other humans. Achille only survives by luck and not skill since Achilles clearly didn't 'plan' to be scratched and if Hector was a 1 cm closer, he would have gashed Achilles.
This movie and especially this scene cemented Eric Bana is as one of the greatest actors of a generation.
Thanks for the insights! Its scenes like these that show why this movie is still watched and remembered. Very well made video, very insightful, and the point made about shaky cam is pretty crisp.
Its a shame that this movie was made during the early 00's era of edglelord film critics that hated things like the prequels, van helsing, and you know, FUN. I'm still waiting for nay-sayers to point me to the Iliad film thats anywhere near as comprehensive or good as this. But sure, films be having flaws, i guess.
@@jeremiahalonzo glad you enjoyed it :)
Yeah I agree, it might be a bit “Hollywood” but it’s still an epic experience watching this movie. Very underrated piece of cinema in my opinion
I will never forget watching this movie in theater. At the beginning when Agamemnon is wondering where Achilles is, saying "Where is he?!", then someone in the audience yelled "it's Brad Pitt, he's out getting laid"... then of course the next scene is the kid finding him in his tent with two women. Whole theater cracked up. It was perfect.
But we’re not going to talk about how Achilles engages and immediately disengages to jog around his opponent like a predator stalking it’s prey?
@@Tuckerm50 how is it like a predator stalking it's prey when he disengage and jogs around? Real life animal predator don't disengage when they are close to their prey,plus jogging around is not stalking lol
Fantastic essay.
This scene is endlessly watchable
I remember a fight coordinator saying the close-ups and shakey cams were developed for actors who couldn't learn the fight choreography.
Great video, only thing is these characters aren’t just semi-mythical as you say a couple of times, they’re the epitome of mythical.
Troy is a great movie and i will die on that hill
I always found this to be one of the most realistic sword fights like this. Also can we take a moment to appreciate how atheletic Brad used to be. He looked like a gazelle pit there
I like because it does a good job of elevating Hector as opposed to the Homer version where he gets visibly stirred and gets chased around the city of Troy three times until his demise.
are we forgetting the part where Hector basically 1 v 1000 the greeks?
While I have always despised the removal of the role of the gods and other mythical beings that took part in the story of the Trojan war. I always admired the portayal of the actors involved in their parts. Wonderful casting job all around.
I was very happy they did not stick too close to Homers book. Having Achilles chase Hector several times around the city is more fitting to a Benny Hill scetch then an epic tale. Same goes for the gods. No one needs Ares, God of War, to run back to daddy Zeus to whine about those mortals daring to hurt him in battle (when they didn't even know it was him as he was concealed).
Raising his shield to his back and fighting with one arm is not "adapting" it's showing off.
Nice fight❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉
Hector vs Achilles
Formidable narrative.
#Troy
Anyone know where i can find a video about Pitt's training and choreography from this film? All that's talked about is his diet and exercise. And great video btw!
I know that Eric Bana and Pitt had a bet that when practicing this fight, every time one of them hit the other by accident they owed them $50. Pitt ended up owing Bana a fair bit of money
Sometimes you can do everything right, be right, and still lose.
I love this scene, it really is a great movie.
People weren't happy with the movie because it wasn't faithful to the source material, and overall they do have a legitimate point, but personally I really liked how they presented Hector. Hector in the Iliad spent half the war running away from Achilles. My main gripe with the film is that it was overtly humanist and secularist, which is almost the opposite of the Iliad.
Even though I fully expected Achilles to win, watching everyone was saying last goodbyes instead of showing Hector support as he went into battle was infuriating.
such a great movie. don't care what the critics said
Just keeping the fighters in frame. Just that alone.
I loved this whole fight scene.
However I felt it was diminished in the directors cut when a new score was dubbed over it.
The theatrical cut and original sound mixing for that scene was so much better. because it enhanced the tension almost pretty much invokes the audience to hold its breath while you see this fight play out
@@DeadCell79 completely agree! Those beating war drums acted like a ticking time bomb! Unfortunately I couldn’t find that version to edit with
Achilles fights with a lot more thrusts while Hector does a lot of swinging. Thrusts are better at penetrating armor and they look much more intentional than swinging. Hector swats at space where Achilles might be while Achilles is always stabbing to end the fight.
Achilles stands alone. He is an exception and has no need for the support of others. Hector stands for his people and has the social weight of so many watching from the walls. Hector was set up to dutifully walk to his own slaughter.
excellent analysis! I wonder if you've done some scene reviews for Lord of the Rings :) sorry I just came across your channel but I subbed instantly
Achilles's style is proactive. Hector's style is reactive. Achilles's movements are balanced with a great economy of movement and fluid. One form flows into the next.
Our Achilles is never more Achilles than when he defeats Hector.
Achilles’ little pause reminds me of Jaime Lannister fighting Ned Stark and realizing he’s not the pushover Jaime thought he would be…
This movie has aged so well
Let's not forget the incredible tribal drum score used during the theatrical cut of this fight. I hate they replaced it for the director's cut version.
I love your analysis, but while you focus solely on the visual, I feel the audio is just as important. If you listen closely, you'll notice that only Hector is making noise during the fight. Throughout the battle, Hector is constantly making grunts, gasps, and groans while Achilles makes no sound at all, no signs of distress or fatigue. Similar to your visual assessment of Achilles near domination of the fracas, there is also the auditory aspect of his superiority. It's an almost unnoticeable aspect of Wolfgang Peterson's vision to this masterpiece of cinema. Too bad they don't make them like they used ta....
Solid pickup!
One of my favorite movies next to Gladiator
Where has the theatrical version gone... such a sad ordeal, the music in the Director's cut ruins the whole thing for me.
Appreciate this essay though, I love this fight scene as well.
@@profundus8946 yeah I agree, the theatrical version is epic. I believe they lost the rights to the song after the cinematic release and had to change it… I think.
Thanks for watching :)
Achilles wanted everyone to love him because he hated himself. You can see just how much hatred he has for himself.When he breaks down and cries over hector's body.