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Should all guns be drop safe?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2024
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There are Gun Dorks/Nerds such as us, and then there are people that are… not as diligent in understanding these types of platforms. Yes, to us it’s not surprising this is not drop safe. But not everyone is on the same level of understanding. Thanks for the content and conversations.
The Ontario Police in California actually bought over 300 units of the Staccato XC to outfit their officers. So yes, Staccato is marketing and selling the XC as a duty weapon.
It’s not just the XC. It’s all S70 style fire control groups.
Staccato will just say that "duty" doesn't mean it has to be drop safe. Bing bang boom solved.
So it’s rated for duty use?
"guns can't hurt you if your finger is off the trigger".... Staccato, Shadow 2, and 320 enter the chat 😂
We need Shadow2 drop test now :-) S2C would be even better.
Shadow 2 also removes the firing pin block, so will so the same thing.
@@DanJLehnot necessarily with a stock pin - different firing pin and spring. It appears that using an extended pin, lighter spring, etc. will and has caused issues tho.
S2C is aluminum might break the gun and make it fire at the same time
We already know it isn't. 🎉
There’s videos out there of a gentle tap of the hammer setting one off (when hammer down as required by uspsa CO)
There’s also a rso in NY who found out the hard way (he ded)
Everyone knows that only Sig P320 needs to be drop safe ✌!
What bothers me is the laziness - stacatto could've used a version of what kimber does with their series 2 firing pin block. Gets actuated by the grip safety, doesn't hurt the trigger pull. No doubt this would've cost more to put in the gun so maybe that was the reason?
That being said, in all likelyhood they just didn't see drop safety as a concern at all, which in my mind is actually more damning than the cost cutting angle.
Hmm.. firing pin block that gets actuated by the grip safety… never heard of that before, genious idea
It's an improvement but the gun can fall on the the beaver tail.
I like Kimber’s idea too (no idea about implementation since I don’t own one) but maybe Staccato didn’t want to risk a patent infringement lawsuit?
@@fancyhitchpin8675 but that should be fine, right? The gun only fires if inertia is causing the firing pin to go toward the primer. Falling on the grip makes the firing pin go away from the primer
Or just add a firing pin block and offer some actual innovation instead of removing safety features in the name of "muh smooth trigger"
staccato P for Punisher logo
"The Safety is a mechanical device that will fail!"
-- Shouted mantra on the Malone ranges at Ft. Benning, GA introducing trainees to the M-16A1, and all smallarms.
I can still hear us shouting it.
what? explain to me how the safety on an ar-15 will "fail". or any gun for that matter. almost all entry level military firearms "training" exists to keep stupid 19 year olds from shooting their buddies by mistake
Bushmaster didn't lose in the courts for their marketing. Their insurers decided to settle. That wasn't Bushmaster's decision, a judge's decision, or a jury's decision.
The problem with the way most people run S2s is that the CGW extended firing pin protrudes from the breach face when the hammer is down. So the firing pin is already resting on the primer during the CO/Prod "ready" condition. The factory firing pin does not do this and the factory firing pin spring is MUCH beafier than the CGW one. I'm actually curious about testing one of my 2011s like this with the wolff "extra power" (In reality normal strength these days) firing pin spring and normal length firing pin. I have doubts that it'll go off, but we'll see if I get around to it lol.
Never said this in the past related videos, so Im saying it now. Thanks Ben for doing that drop test on your Stacatto and getting this conversation going.
Did not lose in court, insurance company settled. That said, I believe that was a big mistake and why they are suing Daniel Defense and others currently, they are hoping for the same outcome, to settle out of court. Never give an inch, because they will always take a mile.
They settled because in all likelihood they were gonna loose and they were minimizing the oh out. That was just a buisness move. Why Glock never was sued in the Sandyhook incident. Same law firm is taking up the suit with DD and the game company with the Uvalde families
@@everettsnyder1763 they were not guilty of anything, or responsible. If they lost in the lower courts, they would have won in the end, thus setting a precedent ending this bullshit. Something’s are worth the fight, and this is one of them.
“IF” the only repeatable failure of the drop test comes from a muzzle impact, I’m not concerned.
I’m guessing you chose the alloy frame instead of the steel on your P.
I think this depends on your circumstances. For most people a random drop safe striker fired gun is capable of performing well past their capability. For some others with proper training they can be safe with other potentially non drop safe guns.
Its one thing to carry a non drop safe gun if you are aware of the potential hazards. But id bet 9 out of 10 2011 owners are not aware. Unfortunately the gun industry may respond with a beretta style billboard warning on the frames or slides 😂
I’d be curious to see what Staccato responds to this. Will they be shady like SIG or be pragmatic like Glock.
My favorite part of this saga was finding out how many people don’t know what drop safe actually is. For every old forum post or article mentioning how it isn’t dropsafe (usually they’d bring up all series 70 guns) there were 10 either not mentioning it or saying “Of course they’re drop safe, it has a grip safety”
All those who went out and bought lightened firing pins and XX springs….
Check your pins after a few hundred rounds.
The Springfield Prodigy has this configuration from the factory and I’ve seen multiple bent firing pins.
I dropped my Tisas hammer side down on the concrete one day. Scared the shit out of me, being a series 70 I kind of expected it to go off but it didn’t.
Tisas come with titanium firing pins, so would be interesting to see if they would fire when dropped on the muzzle. Not sure on the firing pin spring. However, dropping on the hammer shouldn't go off since you have the grip and thumb safety, as well as half cock, to hopefully prevent the hammer from falling in that situation.
All staccato’s have the same fire control parts
8:40 guess GSSF doesn’t have this problem, they probably just have fun 😂
To me, the problem is when uspsa style competitions are on hard surfaces, indoor ranges, etc. Every match I ever went to was on sand, so no big deal but these small matches at indoor ranges should require drop safe pistols.
Yes
I want to hear from the cops that shoot sub 6 second El Prez with a Glock on why they pick the Stacatto for duty. Is it safe enough, do they shoot it so much better?
Nothing more than trying to flex on their coworkers.
Maybe it is time to build a better drop safety mechanism. There is more than firing pin block or none at all. Open a vp9 and look at the sideways moving arm in there that works even at weird angles. If they want that market, they have to deliver in that regard.
only bought my staccato because it was used and came with 13 mags for what a new p would cost from staccato. better deals to be had when buying used in the 2011 world.
Private ownership is one thing but the liability to a municipality once this info circulates?
“The coating is the star of the show” haha
A drop safe open gun is my new favorite oxymoron! I do feel strongly about firing pin blocks on an edc, ie. S2C
Tldr new designs should be drop safe from factory, and nobody is going to ban the 1911 series 70 trigger design.
The issue with competition is that guns that aren’t drop safe are allowed. So simplistic trigger designs provide the best trigger interfaces until blue tooth sears do better.
Bro, can you imagine your gun not working because someone is spamming Bluetooth signals with a Flipper Zero?
@@davidli3582 I can….until something similar comes along that does better it’s not viable today.
Maybe it’ll be blue tooth maybe something else.
Bro this has nothing to do with triggers. Series 70 guns don't have a firing pin block, so when dropped at that angle, the mass of the firing pin has enough inertia to overcome the firing pin spring and bang the primer, that's why titanium pins and heavier springs are out there.
God I hope I got that right
@@mariusgage5471 well yes and no in this case it does have to do with a trigger. One of the many solutions is as you say or go with a series 80 design……
Many guns have incorporated a firing pin block. People just cry foul with the 1911 / 2011 and so they play with springs and firing pins.
Edit : to my knowledge without a firing pin block the idea that springs and pins make it completely equivalent drop safe to a firing pin block has not been fully understood by me. Ie no independent studies. Otherwise you are correct on the workaround.
would be cool if you could drop test it with a stronger spring firing pin spring.
Extended firing pin? Seems like a bad idea unless you can measure your parts and compare the tolerance stack up to a drawing
No all guns don't have to be drop safe. If you want one get one, personal choice.
Shouda, couda, woulda, *Hot pockets*
My m-16 duty gun isn't drop safe, I think you just gotta learn to live with it.
(Could be nice if it was though, same as my shadow 2)
Yeah final comment is on point.
Did you order a surefire with the P? I figure that might be "strange" for you, I don't think I've ever seen a wml on any of your guns
Genuine question for Ben, why such a low view on primary and secondary?
Goon squad.
I find it funny that people are making excuses for series 70s but the moment something happens with a P320 everyone flocks to it. Not saying I like the p320 but it’s pretty funny.
There isn't a reason for them not to be.
If I can’t disable the drop safety, I’d have to learn how to shoot. 🙃
Yes. Should’ve been the shortest video ever made. No idea why there’s still 12:03 minutes worth of runtime left
Is the c2 drop safe?
I'm thinking more and more that Ben is the guy on the playground that tries to get people to fight and doesn't really care who wins as long as he gets to watch a good fight........
🇺🇸
STI make race guns? /Surprised Pika
My staccato P flew out of my non retention holster at a dead Sprint while I was running drills at the range. Hit the ground and tumbled about six times and did not go off. I think it would have to be a direct hit on the nose of the barrel for this to happen.
I have to say - No, it is not "common knowledge" that Staccatos and CZ 75s aren't drop safe. A very very small percentage of even gun owners know that. When looking across the general public the percentage would be nearly zero. In my honest opinion (and this will probably not be popular), it is irresponsible for a gun manufacturer to make a gun in 2024, sell it on the open market, and not disclose to their customer that it isn't drop safe or that there is not a firing pin block. I'll be open and honest - I'm a bit of a gun guy and I honestly had no idea about this with 1911s, 2011s and CZ's like Shadows. All "duty" guns at a minimum should be drop safe. And I also don't buy the whole "what you do with your own gun is your own business." That attitude is fine at your house. But the moment you take it out in public, it's not just you and your wellbeing, but that of everyone around you at stake. It's unacceptable for someone to have a gun on them that can go off without the trigger being pulled when other people are around. Just my opinion. Gun owners need to put pressure on the manufacturers to make a 2011 and a Shadow 2 that is safe. Imagine your daughter getting shot by someone carrying a P320, Shadow 2 Compact, 2011, or something like that and it goes off because the person carrying it trips and falls and it pops off a round. Carry a gun. Please do. But there's no reason it cant be a safe gun.
CZ springs their Shadow, IPSC and TS models to be relatively safe out of the box. Surely not as safe as guns with firing pin blocks, but pretty safe for common drop heights. However most people I know with these guns have swapped parts in them that make them quite unsafe when dropped. Most Shadow owners swap the springs and often go with an extended firing pin shortly after they get the gun.
There are also guns with firing pin blocks that do have very good triggers. It just takes more effort to get it right. Kimber has one kind of solution. A properly setup Beretta or Tanfoglio can also get the pretravel down to a millimeter or two while keeping the firing pin block operational. The latter takes fitting work that mainstream gun makers don't want to do because it costs money.
I’m 26 and have been around firearms since before I could read. I’ve been a gun nut ever since I could read. I didn’t know that CZ-75’s weren’t drop safe, either.
@@seann2769 Their duty-grade models like the 75B, 75D, 75 Compact, 75 P-01, SP-01 Tactical, SP-01 Phantom and all the Omega variants have firing pin block mechanisms and are drop safe.
They deleted this mechanism in their competition-oriented models (SP-01 Shadow, Shadow 2, 75 M IPSC, 75 S IPSC, 75 TS, TS2, Czechmate, Parrot, etc.) to achieve that enviable trigger feel and response at the lowest possible cost.
@@IvanRiveraStagea now that makes a lot more sense. Because the CZ-75 is definitely a duty gun.
@@seann2769 Agree. The sad part is that there are too many people who think that the competition models are the best in everything. They just see it as a higher end product that is better in every way without knowing that some internal features were removed.
"all guns": no - shotguns are not drop safe
duty guns: yes
competition guns: probably
Guns are not made to be dropped. Just like car are not made to be crashed. The manufacturer do make tests for dropping but it’s not supposed to be dropped like your test. Only my opinion
Most guns used in combat are not drop safe. It’s fine lol.
Cars literally have crumple zones in them. They're literally designed to be crashed.
Cars aren’t made to be crashed but you probably don’t want your car to kill you after a fender bender. We have airbags and FPBs for a reason. A gun designed to be used in situations where it could conceivably be dropped shouldn’t go off when dropped.
Honestly if you as a consumer can’t take your pistol apart and see it doesn’t have a firing pin block and doesn’t read or think enough about the gun you purchased 🤔 I’m not real concerned if my gun is drop safe or not. My 229 legion is drop safe but my 2011 is not drop safe. If I was carrying as le I would probably make it more drop safe
I just shoot Glocks, also I'm gay.
I bet Steven Seagal’s 1911 is drop safe
Ben thrives in it and desires the drama. STACCATO CANCEL THE ORDER. LET BEN LOOSE
If you are in the "all guns should be drop safe" then you are against most shotguns as they are not drop safe. No Mossberg 500. No Remington 870 etc etc.
To be honest, I don’t think drop safety matters as much on long guns. You’re making ready then holding it at low ready anyways. It stands to reason that, if you are drawing a gun from a holster, the potential for dropping it is far greater. Handguns are smaller and you have to take it out of the holster, make ready, then reholster, then unholster it. That’s plenty of opportunities to drop it.
Fyi ar15 isn’t drop safe.
Kinda wild that people are modifying their guns to not be drop safe when all they had to do was suck less. Smh lmao
At this point: EVERYONE BTFO
any safety feature can fail, so do we put a drop safety on top of a drop safety on top of a drop safety?? fact of life is, the only firearm that is 100% safe is one that is never loaded. people like to make mountains out of mole hills, and getting their panties in a wad.
That’s taking it to the other extreme. There’s a reasonable amount of safety redundancies that can and have been successfully implemented in handguns. You don’t need a 5 pound handgun with 10 redundant drop safety features backing up the drop safety before it.