22LR - Does Muzzle SD Even Matter?? | DPG In House Barrels
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- JBM BC Calculator:
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What is Mach Trimming of 22 Rimfire Velocities:
thescienceofac...
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great info ,muzzle crown and many other things influence accuracy ,I have always took the stance that a chronograph is a great instrument to gather information ,however there isn't anything to change in rim fire other than the brand of ammo
Great video! What do you consider as an acceptable group size @200yds for match grade ammo?
@@sgweric 2in or under
Awesome vid, I never thought of putting my Garmin downrange. 🤔
Careful. Lol anything downrange is a target, I'm not liable lol. But it works well!
Excellent presentation and content, i subscribed and got answers to several long held questions. Very pleased to meet you i will get all your new uploads, best man i've seen in a good while.
Thanks Kenny. You do a great job of explaining, to include the "why" for each aspect.
Kenny , I love the way you put your thoughts out there to learn and develop new stuff . I’m not sure I understood what I was supposed to other than a great rifle maker is committed to learning and growing to build even better rifles . Thanks for sharing . I need to watch this a few times to get better understanding . At the end of the day a 20 shot 0.79” group at 100M is unimaginable to me . Keep up the pioneering efforts brother !
Great video! I just placed an order for one of your CZ barreled actions. Your discussion in the video on tight spots and their effects on cold bore shifts made me curious on how different barrels are affected by cold bore shift. Is this something that can be remedied during the manufacturing of the barrel, or is it a crap shoot on whether you will get a shift or not in a barrel.
It's a characteristic of the final finish of the barrel, their is no remedy if the barrel has a cold bore shift from what I know and have asked the best barrel smiths in the industry. Barrels should be considered a desposable item if seeking best accuracy. Having an Air Gauge LLC tool has allowed me to find those high spots.
My benchrest builds actually use a tighter bore to allow better obturation (seal) which also tends to have a cold bore shift. But BR shooters will shoot sighters before score
THINKING OUT SIDE THE BOX IT WHAT REALLY MAKES EVERY SPORT GREATER
Thanks for the information and honesty!
I am really excited for my CZ457 build you're doing for me. These new barrels your making seem to be a logical evolution of your experience from building so many of these rifles. I feel like with everything you've experimented with to this point there is probably little you haven't seen or encountered. It's cool to me that you were able to source these materials (especially considering where you got them) and utilize the metallurgic properties you were seeking to bring about a result you wanted for the harmonics to build consistencies and accuracy for grouping performance and cold bore. I'll be interested to see how this stage of experimenting progresses towards where you go from here in the future. Kudos. Keep on keeping on.
Hang in there! It'll be worth the wait. Folk like you who share your results solidfy what I do and push me to do better
@@EagleEyeShooting That is true! I'm a customer now after experiencing your work first hand from people you have built for already. The accuracy is incomparable and the workmanship is impeccable! I have no doubt it is worth the wait AND the price. This is my first purchase from your company, but I know already it won't be my last. Colossians 3:23
This is all good stuff but you are killing my budget. I spend hours lot testing ammo with windflags, this is the only way I can improve with the rifles that I have…
What is the price range for the. 22LR that you build?
Great video, I agree a barrel should be able to shoot different ammo manufacturers not just one.
@@albundy7459 Check out the videos on “Tha Beastt” I have shot at least 4 different ammo manufacturers with good results. By no means Am I an expert, just what I have experienced.
To add to this, first all Eric has been a troll on my channel for a while. He's one arrogant comment from being blocked.
You cannot view 22lr in the same aspect as centerfire, it litterally acts opposite of what makes sense. I did a video series showing how the powder charges in 22lr are the same charge and very consistent. The bullet profiles are very much the same. Chambers do little to nothing to effect the performance from expirence. Barrels 100% can be made to be an all around performer regardless of ammo brand. Proven here where the CZ457 shot eley and lapua fairly well if you cast out the eley flyers
@@EagleEyeShooting I totally agree. Point in case is my friend’s Vudoo V22, he loaned it to my channel for some ammo comparison, I tested from CCI to Lapua Midas with very good results. All on video for anyone to see.
@albundy7459 Al..... with these heavy contour barrels. TUNERS absolutely do nothing but make your rifle look phallic. Case in point, I would be selling them on the 2500+ builds If they did...., balasticians relentless testing recently would prove they dont work. Which infact proved it didn't have any statistically improvement over the entire strings of fire. Thin barrels, it does work, but mostly because it's showing the barrel starve for weight.. I have 3 national ARA records with rifles I've built without a tuner. I also have no problem replicating sub 1/2 in groups at 100 with any of my 22lr builds. Case in point.... look at my latest video. Centerfire is different, as I do believe they work there.
Btw, NRL champion 2024 used Lapua LR. He didn't lot test and though he has a tuner, it wasn't moved to "tune" the ammo
I don't shoot .22 rimfire often so my question may be just my ignorance. Does temperature come into play at all with rimfire?
Absolutely, the ammo performs different in cold weather and in some cases give you a failure to fire when it's freezing. If left in the sun, start to get velocity spikes
To answer your question - finish watching the video. 😊
@@John-uo1qf
Yes to this, as I was half way through and got a call.
thanks again for some great info, i know this information takes work, nice to know there are still people that don't stop until perfection is achieved, still saving for my cz from DP 😀 getting closer, question though can you fix a barrel with a tight spot, can it be re done somehow? stay cool out there!
Very great question! Wish I would have added that in this video. Hand lapping is, and knowing how to do it correctly is a dieing art. In some cases, yes it can help but most of the time, the high spot can be just in one groove or land, it's near impossible to lap that one area to nominal bore ID without affecting the other lands and grooves. IMO, if your striving for best accuracy, barrels should be thought of as a disposable item. In the past, I use to have to rebarrel many of my builds when I tested down range. Quality barrels reduce my time I spent building a rifle significantly and when I reached out to the best barrel Smiths in the nation, I learned a lot about this process
I always say "the most experienced guy has done more things wrong" When he says "that won't work" he knows.
Very interesting. The difference between muzzle and down range SD. The velocity consistancy really is only significant at longer ranges for Precision rimfire competition. This can be determined with a ballistic calculator.
Mach trimming now that there's a term for it really is an eye opener for consistency at long distances in relation to pushing sub sonic 22lr at the right velocities. SD in BC value aids better in longer distance accuracy, that's how I went about it also
@@EagleEyeShooting Mach trimming only occurs when the muzzle velocity exceeds the speed of sound, which is rare with standard velocity rimfire match ammo such as Lapua Center X. The Bryan Litz video on The Science of Accuracy website was very interesting.
You may want to read for your self and recheck that. It's near Mach 1.0 not exceeding. As quoted from the publication
"This aerodynamic phenomenon near the speed of sound creates a condition that can actually decrease the effective standard deviation"
Link for the article in description. The lower SD at the target is confirmation of this phenomenon and is repeatable when near Mach 1.0.
@@EagleEyeShooting You're right. I missed that. Need to test this myself!
@@joed3264 I'm guessing this is one reason longer barrels seem to shoot better
May 22. Had a new, unopened box of ELEY SABR come up a whole 10 rounds short. Have a pic but YT won’t let me post it. Love the work you are doing. Keep it up bud.
Great presentation Kenny, I really appreciate the debt of work you do in order to be the best in what you do! Its really easy to get behind a man like yourself and support you in your endeavor's to build the best rifle's in the business! Thank You!!
DPG truck axles !!!!!!
Great information Kenny. I don't want to see 457 yet baby by the end of the year. I personally own a Ruger Precision Rimfire do you do anything barrel wise for them?
Thanks brother. IMO the Ruger precision rimfire is not a good reliable plateform and is poorly designed. I've owned 3 of them. Trade up to a CZ457
Finally! I hope we won't have to wait so long for the next one!
I mean the answer is of course it matters. If you had an SD of 100 it wouldn’t always hit the paper at 100 yds. But once you get to a decent level of consistency in velocity then all that matters is how the gun shoots it.
Also… now I wanna order another CZ to try out the threaded barrels you’re doing now.
Then again, SD's in the 5-8 like the Eley Match which also had low SD at the target somehow performed the worst. Goes to show that thiers many factors that are over looked
Where can I find the Targets that you are using?
Thanks for sharing
All divergence from shot to shot matters but it’s shooter inconsistency that matters the most, like inconsistent sight alignment, poor trigger control, and incomplete NPA adjustment. These shooter errors mask all ammunition inconsistencies.
#OUTSTANDING VIDEO THNX
Great info, one of my competitors at our cen-tx bimonthly match [out to 250yds] just got one of your new complete rifles with the "space X strut?" barrel. It shot very well early but 'opened up' later in the match. He was shooting Norma Xtreme and pushing 1200fps. ?leading? perhaps. I have a question for you, I saw my groups on my CZ open up considerably when I left the 'sorted' SK LRM in the sun on the bench. Temp was triple digits. What have you seen as far as the affects of ammo temp cause? Thanks for what you do
Absolutely, the ammo still uses a fast burning powder that is temperature sensitive. Cold weather at freezing causes failure to fire. Hot temperatures causes velocity changes. Ammo like Polar Biathlon was specifically designed to be more stable in the cold. Definitely keep the ammo out of the sun and in ambient temp
Temperature shift from 20 degrees F to 40 degrees F from morning to afternoon caused a 2 MOA shift in the 100 yard zero. One guy was using a cooler with hand warmers in it to keep his ammo more stable.
111 wow, too hot to pick up brass.
Thanks for another great video. What are your thoughts on using a heavier firing pin spring? and what about modifying the firing pin or using something like a Petes Pillars firing pin is it all snake oil?
Adjusting the firing pin spring makes a difference, I found using the spring that is 1-2 #'s heavier before having FTF issues gave me the most consistency with my lot tested ammo. As for the modified pins, I don't really know. I haven't had the need to modify the CZ457 and find the factory firing pin to just fine for me
@@EagleEyeShooting Thank you.
I am having them made from quick spring. I'll have them available on our dpgunworks web site along with our wire EDM extractors and c clip
Thank you for all the info.
52 B 752 rem
Kenny the things that I love with the vudoo you built me with this new barrel is I don’t have any cold bore shifts and it is not picky with any ammo. I sent you pictures with cheaper ammo at distance and the groupings were down right amazing. Thanks again for building me this amazing rifle
So where do we send the money too to purchase one of these from you! Wondering if this would fit in my CZ457 Varmint Precision Chassis. I need a new longer/thicker barrel to help balance.
Thanks Kenny, great stuff...I really dig that little Garmin Xero.
So in my experience with Eley what is your feet per second on the box say? Because my CZ 457 LRP stock barrel loves Eley tenex at 200 yards. The harmonics of my barrel likes Eley tenex, match and team around 1067 to 1073. I had thought about going and rebelling it to some high flute and barrel but I'm winning competitions with my stock platform. But if I had the money I'd build me a really nice nice 22 long rifle
Tenex in this video was rated 1074, Match was 1051. I see more flyers with current production 2024 Eley ammunition over Capstone as of this post.
Enjoyed the video. One thing I’ll add, I bought a case of the ammo that was recommended from Lapua test center and could never get it to shoot as well as they did. Ordered a few lots of match and did my own test and getting groups half the size of the Lapua at 100 yds. 22lr means test test test.
Nice informative Video 👍. New Subscriber 👌.
Cheers from 🇨🇦🙏🍻.
Any chance I can buy a barrel blank from you to compare it against my mullerworks
Learning precision together folks😀. Awesome info Kenny 👍. I reckon you will sell truck loads of DPG barrels. Knowing you I’ll bet you’re thinking of building your own actions someday soon lol.
Great video Kenny,
Yes Eley has shorted me out of single rnds before!!
Thanks for your Top Shelf work!!
At the end of the day the bottom line issue with 22LR is the ammo itself.
Every rifle/barrel you still need to find brand and lot that shoots well.
Why do they offer so many different lots of ammo? Because the manufacturer cannot make the cartridges precise enough. The lead bullet is not uniform like a copper bullet,the lead bullet mushrooms out when the brass is crimped(loose or tight),primer not flowing all around the rim, list on and on.
You know the ammo that is made for the day is the same ammo branded as SK Standard Plus or X-Act that was made on the same machine and exact same components right???
The ammo manufacturers do not build ammo to specific lot numbers. The ammo is tested from the batch made. Depending on the performance, is labeled and marketed per its performance. This shows that mass manufacturing goes through tolerance changes.
Building a barrel that is less sensitive to harmonic changes will yield a rifle that will consistently shoot many lots well... Hence what I built here
Fighting wind? Why not hold for it for each shot?
Why are you testing Tenex and Eley Match? They are the same round apart from Match is Tenex after tested and not coming up to par on the test standard. So many Americans making this mistake.
You know this is the same as SK Rifle, SK Long Range, SK Standard Plus, Lapua Center-X, Midas +, X-Act being made on the same machine right???
🤦♂️
Good video and interesting 👍🇺🇸
High Kenny, great video and information.
I shoot 22bpcra and in a few of the shots in this video it looked like a Ballard single shot with beautiful wood. Are you building a rifle to compete with? That would be a great video to see. Thank you for all your hard work and great information 😊
Shhhh😉... Keen eye though! Yes I got a video on that. It's J Mullins I'm rebuilding
I’m guessing this is why there hasn’t been a video in a while. Glad to see new videos coming out. Keep them coming please.
120 degrees outside lol. I got videos in the works
Thanks for the vid Kenny. Like the hat.
Very strange to not include footage of the last 2 groups
well if you ever try using 4K camera's in 112 degree weather you would understand how they like to shutdown because of heat...... not to mention it was already a 30 min video. So if your accusing of foul play here, you can see the how the Rim-X performed at the lapua test center on my video about lot testing. The goal of this video was not to compare performances of these rifles, but to look at data given down range and velocities / sd arnt what we think it means at the target. Thiers something called BC Deviation also
Interesting
Great video!!
Have you ever thought about using a match grade thin barrel with about an 8th inch thickness of a soft epoxy resin or silicon between it and the outside of the barrel?
Very similar to how carbon fiber barrels are made. Air guns use these kinds of barrels and use a tube around the barrel and tensioning system to tune
Great information Kenny.
Thanks brother👍
Really? Harmonically dampened stainless steel? Someone is SELLING his Snake-Oil.
Lol sure. I use an aero space company that makes these stainless rods also used in the rockets for space-x. You may not want to believe it, but I took the approach a different way to produce these. Don't need you to believe, that's why I hold the records in the test center and produce the performance you see
You do realize that there are several different varieties of stainless steel. Some we can use an aircraft yet others we can't. Some are food grade some are not. Research for yourself and then listen and you might learn something from this fella right here
Darryl is exactly correct. To not give away all the details, these "rods" work well with the pressures of 22lr... but I would not dare use it on any centerfire cartridge
@thinkingBiblically judging by the content on your TH-cam, you seem to think everyone is selling snake oil...
Religion is the greatest snake oil ever sold to mankind.