It’s reached a point where they can extend the subway to any part of the city, and the entire route will naturally become dense. That’s how starved the city is for public transport and specifically subways. People are complaining about lack of density along parts of Sheppard? Announce the extension and you’ll see two dozen new condo developments along Sheppard. McCowan/Sheppard station on Line 2 isn’t even fully constructed yet and there’s already like 7 proposed buildings to be built. Toronto needs to start acting like a proper city. It amalgamated in 1998, but city hall still likes to pretend Toronto is only the old city. It can’t keep ignoring the boroughs and think the city will be able to move forward.
1:56 I can't see anyone who seriously believes that the west extension isn't needed. In fact, I argue this is one of the lowest-hanging fruits that metrolinx can build today. Apart from your points, Line 4 trains can also connect to the existing Wilson yard, so they don't have to travel far distances if they have something wrong. Likewise, Line 1 trains mostly stored at Wilson can have a shortcut to the busier Yonge line, meaning more trains can be deployed faster. Can you link some sources on opponents to the west extension (if possible)? Thank you & good vid!
That part of Sheppard is pretty low density with lots of empty parks. The traffic isn’t too bad, and buses already provide decent service to the area, and you only have to ride the bus for a short while before you get to a subway station. Meanwhile, on the eastern extension, there are already huge condo towers with thousands of people waiting for better transit. The existing bus service always gets jammed up at the 404 crossing. And the area doesn’t have any nearby subway service, so there’s a huge catchment area of people who might ride down to Sheppard to catch the subway.
@@my2iu transfering onto a bus only to ride it a couple of km actually adds a lot of time to your commute. Even if buses do come every few minutes (tbf the 84 bus already does), that still means getting up from you seat, and running upstairs for a service that runs in a straight line, something an subway extension can easily carry. Also adding an eastern extension adds more riders, that still ends up funnelling them into the already congested Sheppard-Yonge interchange. That means more congestion on the Yonge-side Line 1, and congestion on the 84 bus.
@@my2iuit’s low density because IT LACKS the subway. Look at Eglinton and its transformation. Wherever you build the subway, that area becomes dense naturally. Don Mills is another example….Sheppard line should absolutely be extended west as well. I’m tired of Toronto behaving like its a small mid-tier city still. It just surpassed Chicago a few years ago and politicians still think it’s the Toronto from 1935. Development in the city should reflect its size….they like to cater to the yuppies downtown, while the vast majority of Toronto residents in the boughs are ignored. Enough.
@@verynonexistent I’m not saying the bus is perfect, but that it works fine. And many people who need to do that trip will already be on a bus anyway, so transferring to another bus is no big deal. Unless you specifically need to go to York University or Yorkdale, then just connecting to the other end of Line 1 isn’t that useful. You’ll probably want to continue riding the bus further on. For example, if I lived at Finch and Yonge, and I wanted to go to York University, I’d probably take the bus down Finch. It doesn’t really make sense for me to go down to Sheppard, cross over to Sheppard West, and then travel back up. The same goes for people living at, say, Lawrence-Yonge and who want to go to York University.
@@TMBpk Scarborough has no subway, and they’ve built tons of high density housing, and they’re building more. The area of Sheppard for the west extension is low density because the residents there want to have low density (or maybe there’s an issue with the airport). I know that residents are unhappy with medium sized condo towers on Sheppard only a block or two west of Yonge. Unless you want the province to ram down giant condo towers down the throats of the residents along the west extension, then it’s just not as promising as the east extension or a Finch extension.
The western extension to Sheppard West station infinitely makes Line 4 more useful. Yes, it's low density, but we created a mess by creating a stubway in a low-density area of Toronto. The western connection makes it easier for Line 1 and 4 trains to get to Wilson. It also makes it infinitely easier for students to get from Scarborough to York U. And it opens up the possiblilty of interlining Lines 1 and 4. Let's make the line useful!
There's more too, there's also the connection to the finch line via line 1, Barrie line at downsview park station via line 1, and a future Bolton go train connection.
Build it and they will come ... Borrow the money and connect the loops. All the best systems are grids not these 1 way lines. I don't care if the current areas are low density. They won't be for long, especially Sheppard W. It I'd clearly needed and is only going to cost more and more the longer we wait. Get it done.
The TTC actually investigated several options for the transfer at or near Don Mills Road with the existing Line 4 Sheppard subway. The main obstacle is Highway 404, which the LRT may have to tunnel under, and the fact that the subway is located 18 metres (59 ft) below grade at this point. Original options Surface LRT Connection: Hwy 404 bridge expanded to maintain existing traffic lanes and incorporate two lanes for LRT in the Centre. Traffic lanes reduced near Don Mills Road to allow LRT stop on surface, in the Centre of Sheppard - a wide Centre platform would include stairs and elevators connecting to the mezzanine level of the subway station. Underground LRT Connection 1: Tunnel under Highway 404 beginning west of Consumers Road and connecting to the mezzanine/concourse level of the subway (one level below the surface, one level above the subway.) Underground LRT Connection 2: Tunnel under Highway 404 beginning west of Consumers Road and "butting up" against the east end of the subway platform (two levels below the surface.) Subway Extension 1: Extend the subway to Consumers Road area and build an LRT connection there. Subway Extension 2: Shallow subway extension to Consumers Road with LRT station in the middle of Sheppard Avenue and a direct passage to the subway below. Recommended options Option 3 - Underground LRT Connection 2 Option 3 proposed building an underground connection to the subway platform level at Don Mills. The subway platform would be extended east, with LRT tracks built on either side, allowing for a level transfer. For customers east of Victoria Park and destined to the subway, Option 3 has the same pros as Option 5, but at a lower cost, and the tunnel construction would be designed to allow for a future subway extension. But it has the cons of separation between subway and LRT still under policy discussion; separation between vehicles could be 100 to 125 metres (328 to 410 ft). Option 5 - Subway Extension 2 Option 5 proposed building a shallow subway extension to Consumers Road and connecting with the Sheppard East LRT at a surface-level LRT station. The LRT station would be built in the middle of Sheppard Avenue (east of Consumers Road), with direct passageways to the Line 4 station below. Option 5 avoids the need for travelers from the business park to travel one stop, then transfer to the subway as per Option 3; given that, it is seen as a more effective catalyst for more dense, transit-oriented development in the area of the station. This option, however, is much more expensive than Option 3 and requires more detailed design work to determine if a "shallow" subway extension is achievable. More work is required to determine the depth needed to avoid the settlement near the Highway 404 bridge and to avoid the large, 6-metre-deep (20 ft) sanitary sewer near Consumers Road. The main Decision is; The answer is *Option 3 b/c the TTC has decided on option 3. Sheppard East LRT which runs from Victoria Park North to Morningside Ave./Toronto Zoo, and Extend Line 4 Sheppard East and West from Sheppard West to Scarborough Centre via Victoria Park North*
As I see it, both extensions have their benefits. If the Sheppard line is extended to the existing Sheppard West Station, staff and students going to and from York University will rely less on other routes to get to their destination. All staff and students will need to do is transfer to Sheppard West Station and head three stations north. If the Sheppard line is extended east of Don Mills Road, it will certainly give transit users another option to get to where they’re going instead of using existing perpendicular bus routes (for example, 24 Victoria Park) to connect to Line 2, the Bloor-Danforth line. As mentioned in the video, this extension will potentially connect with the Scarborough Town Centre-now that Line 3, the Scarborough RT, is defunct-and easternmost sectors of the city, including the Toronto Zoo. In either scenario, cost seems to be the greatest disadvantage. If tunnelling is the main concern, why doesn’t Metrolinx consider extending either end of the Sheppard line using an elevated train pathway? Montreal’s newly opened REM (Réseau express métropolitain) is built this way. Only three stations are tunnelled: Central Station (Gare centrale) and two future stations, McGill and Édouard-Montpetit. Metrolinx could potentially tunnel between Don Mills Station and Victoria Park. From Victoria Park, the rest of the extension would be elevated. West of Yonge, there could be a tunnel to Senlac Road, leaving most of the western extension elevated until Wilson Heights Blvd. To complete the extension, a tunnel could connect Wilson Heights to Sheppard West Station. Based on other transit videos I’ve watched, elevated train pathways are **much** less expensive than tunnelling and can be built quicker. Something for the Metrolinx team to consider. That’s my two cents. (-:
It is worth noting that 1/4 of the tunnel for the western extension of Line 4 has already been built. Right now, it mostly exists to store extra trains and because of it, the city could technically build a new station at Senlac without requiring any more tunnel construction. Opponents of this extension are so obsessed with the low density of the region between Sheppard-Yonge and Sheppard West stations, while failing to consider that Sheppard-Yonge is a part of the North York Centre, a region literally built around the subway when Line 1 got extended to Finch. If the west extension gets built, the development will surely follow too. Elevated rails are much nicer but they should make sense. I personally think the entirety of the west extension should just remain tunneled because of how brief an elevated section there would be anyways. As for the east extension, tunnel boring machines would have to be used between Don Mills and Consumers Drive, but cut-and-cover construction could very well be used from Consumers to the station at Kennedy. And Metrolinx, for god’s sakes please just make the Kennedy Road station allow for an easy transfer to Agincourt GO. Don’t go through with building a new station directly south of it for no reason… Beyond that, assuming Line 4 will go to Scarborough Centre it may be beneficial for the city to re-use some of the old track structure from the Scarborough RT, although renovated to deal with the safety issues that caused the line to close in the first place. They would still need to build or re-build stations at Triton and Scarborough Centre to facilitate longer, 6-car trains, but overall it would likely be much less expensive. A portal would just need to be built somewhere between Agincourt and Triton.
@@ChromatiXWasTaken I love the cut-and-cover concept! I’m sure it would take less time to build cut-and-cover stations than to build tunnels between Consumers Drive and Kennedy (or Scarborough Town Centre).
If theyre going to mobilize the staff and money for an extension do it completely. Bring it to Sheppard West and then out to Sheppard to make it a more full subway rather than dumping entirely onto Line 1. Redo the land use planning along the corridor for higher density housing and use the D/C in this area to help pay for the subway cost. If they work to make redevelopment in this area faster and use the funds for the subway extension they can fix the lower density areas with more riders and pay for it partially at the same time.
You only need Bathurst. Make another entrance to Sheppard W. station for Wilson Heights. I'm pretty sure that would be cheaper than an actual train station at Wilson Hts.
One of the biggest issues with the current transit network in Toronto is the lack of completed network loops, and usually the loops that could exist are only broken by a gap of would would be less than 3 stations. In additional the the Sheppard East and West extension already mentioned, extending the Sheppherd Line from Sheppherd West further to Finch would allow transfers to the new Finch LRT, avoiding a 2 stop ride on the University Line just to connect to the Sheppherd Line and continue East from the Finch LRT. Theres also the streetcar gap between Dufferin Loop Station and Exhibition which would be only 1 maybe 2 stops to fill in, though the TTC/Metrolinx has confirmed this gap will be filled as part of the Exhibition GO renovations already ongoing. Another gap is between Long Branch GO where the Lakeshore West Streetcar terminates and Kipling GO where the Bloor Line terminates, which could be filled by an extension to Sherway Gardens Mall and then tunneling south to Long Branch with an extra stop in Alderwood, a neighborhood currently without any rail-based transit that goes north at all. Alternatively if the Toronto North GO Train were to be implemented it could start at Port Credit with the connection to the Hurontario LRT, then after Long Branch take the bypass corridor north to Kipling and then continue on along the CP corridor parallel to Davenport all the way up past the Science Center for connections with the Eglington and Ontario Lines, at connection as close to Agnicourt GO as possible, and an eastern terminus at Sheppherd and McCowan where the Sheppherd East and Bloor East extension will also terminate. With a Toronto North GO line like this a Bloor Line extension west from Kipling would still be useful but it could be all above ground just parallel to the Milton GO line with a brand new stations at the north part of the Sherway Gardens shopping area and at Cawtha Road in addition to stops as Dixie GO and terminating at Cooksville GO for connections to the Hurontario LRT.
Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this. I wonder if it makes sense to extend the Sheppard line east to Scarborough Town Centre and have it link up to the Danforth line extension to form a single long Bloor/Danforth/McCowan/Sheppard subway line. There's a lot of opportunity to increase residential density on Sheppard East. I'm also thinking trains would be able to keep moving instead of wasting time bunching up at end stations to turn around.
It would be great if they put turn on/off onto the Sheppard line so trains could be run on both lines or used to balance traffic in the event of an emergency. The turn on would need to go both north and south onto the Scarborough subway to be effective.
any East west connection for North York is heavily needed, period. Even the Finch West LRT should have been ran all the way to Finch station and arguably to Scarborough as another option for crosstown. I really think they should extend line 4 to Sheppard West AND to an extent Downsview Park for the convenient transfer to GO Station. Redundancy is never rarely bad in train system as it provides alternatives for transit users.
I know the one to Morningside May take the longest, and it may be the most expensive, but that’s better for Scarborough, I don’t live in Scarborough but I do go on a car ride in Scarborough every once in a while, especially on Sheppard. And while driving along Sheppard I can just see in my mind a Subway entrance at almost every major street all the way to Morningside.
@@kodguerrero Maybe when you get a subway, all the rich people move there and push out the poor people? So if you want affordable housing, you simply have to be willing to live in an area with worse transportation options because that will make it cheaper?
@@my2iu But that increases the transportation cost and time for those people, who already struggle to get to and from work. More public transit is always better and takes cars off the road which we all desperately need
The Sheppard east LRT line would sure a lot more people in the north east side of Scarborough because the Sheppard east LRT line would run on surface road just like the part of the Eglinton crosstown LRT, Finch west LRT, and Hurontario LRT line.
Makes sense to extend this "stump" both ways..west through new DV neighborhood & to L1 i west & also extend East to connect to L2 & Scboro extension & future SB lrt eastward
We need both! I know it'll be super expensive, but just like chemotherapy, at this point it's vital we do so. Without significant increased density along new subway routes, we won't be able to get anywhere near our housing goals and people and business will flee Toronto in droves and the city will die!
It'd be good if, rather than to Meadowvale Rd, the Sheppard Subway extended southwards after Morningside to UTSC, where it could interchange with an eastern extension of Line 5 (Line 7), creating an interregional transit hub there where GO and Durham buses could connect as well. Good too, if the gov't's highway tunnel proposal premutated into a Sheppard extension not only from UTSC to Sheppard west Station, but even further west to at least Weston Rd or better yet, crossing the valley to link up with Albion Rd.
Agree, the city needs to build proper hubs at each side and use them to connect to TTC and GO transit and the local transit systems. Ideally, the west hub could be built in the airport, and can serve as terminus for the Shepard line, the Eglington LRT and would link to UP Express and Mississauga and Brampton BRTs. That way the line can provide reasonably direct links between all major suburbs without unnecessarily funneling people downtown.
Mine would be Concept 2B Scarborough Centre/Sheppard West Extension and then build the Sheppard East LRT to run from Kennedy North/Agincourt to Morningside/Toronto Zoo
Western extension should go to Finch West not Sheppard West station. It would save a transfer for those using Finch West LRT and the Sheppard Line to go across the north of the city. Eastern extension to STC makes far more sense. STC is a major centre in itself but also an important transfer hub with both TTC and GO services there. Again would save a lot of people a pointless transfer. Running it entirely along Sheppard would be completely non-sensical. Toronto needs to lose its near-religious obsession with the grid.
A lot of what you’re saying is just re-stating the plans that were already shown, but I will comment on the west extension part. In my opinion having only 1 station in between Yonge Street and Dufferin Street is terribly infrequent especially considering Line 2 has *6* stations in between Yonge Street and Dufferin Street. And I know Line 2 is going to have a much higher station density considering it is in the downtown core of Toronto, but it’s not like Line 4 is entirely suburban either. Even though the extension would be going through areas that are kind of suburban and low-density right now, it’s worth remembering that Sheppard-Yonge station is a part of the North York Centre, a high density region of Toronto that is a pretty good example of transit-oriented development in the city. If Line 1 never got extended to Finch, the area would not exist in the same way. With that in mind, having the stations there to facilitate a potential urban up-spring in the corridor would make meeting capacity easier and cheaper. Say only the station at Bathurst Street gets built and the entire corridor ends up getting the North York Centre treatment. The stations at Senlac and Wilson Heights would have been needed regardless if that were to occur, and building them later would be harder due to potential higher density. Building a transit system isn’t just about serving high-density places; it’s about having enough foresight to prepare for potential urban developments that could follow suit.
@@ChromatiXWasTaken Senlac a waste of money.. and Wilson height.. well you would just have the connection at Sheppard west.. plus it "could" get built in a faster time
@@rah2389 Nah. It really isn’t. It allows for more connection points especially if the area densifies *like I said it could*, and also what’s the point of having a transit system when the stations on a subway are so far apart from each other? Projects costing less may be appealing, but lower costs often come at the sacrifice of a worse transit system.
Terrible idea. Downgrading lines to a lower level of operation just because they’re not hitting their highest capacity levels now would mean there is much less potential capacity if the line gets busier. Subways have much more capacity than LRTs, and if the line gets extended it would be able to see much more ridership. If the LRT idea came from the old “Sheppard East LRT” from the same transit plan that included the Eglinton Crosstown and Finch West, the idea is the most laughable out of all of the lines proposed in that plan. All it would have done was create an inefficient transfer and a portion of the line with much less capacity because… why? Cost savings? Subways just carry more people than LRTs do.
@@ChromatiXWasTaken not a bad idea. The Sheppard line should’ve been the York extension that goes into Vaughan on Line 1. As it stands, our transit expansion lacks continuity and congruence. Getting on rapid transit in Scarborough and having one transit ride with no transfers to Humber Collage would be invaluable.
@@Matt-nw2te I *kind of* agree with your statement? I do think transit planners are too obsessed with the grid as things stand right now which prevents actually stronger transit connections to be made. But downgrading the line just so it can connect with the Finch West LRT is not something that *any* professional transit planner would have any reason to do. Because, once again, that would mean reducing the amount of capacity for a line that would definitely need the capacity if it is to connect Scarborough Centre, the Toronto Zoo, and *maybe* Centennial College? Not exactly ideal.
they should have LRT from finch down to Kingston via old line 3 use old stations and right of way add loop south of Kenndey to scar go.. then add loop to zoo etc.
![[Unbuilt Toronto] - GO ALRT: A Detailed Exploration](/img/n.gif)
It’s reached a point where they can extend the subway to any part of the city, and the entire route will naturally become dense. That’s how starved the city is for public transport and specifically subways. People are complaining about lack of density along parts of Sheppard? Announce the extension and you’ll see two dozen new condo developments along Sheppard.
McCowan/Sheppard station on Line 2 isn’t even fully constructed yet and there’s already like 7 proposed buildings to be built.
Toronto needs to start acting like a proper city. It amalgamated in 1998, but city hall still likes to pretend Toronto is only the old city. It can’t keep ignoring the boroughs and think the city will be able to move forward.
It’s more of the fact that those boroughs thinks they are still a single family home suburbia. They are the anti-expansion faction.
1:56 I can't see anyone who seriously believes that the west extension isn't needed. In fact, I argue this is one of the lowest-hanging fruits that metrolinx can build today. Apart from your points, Line 4 trains can also connect to the existing Wilson yard, so they don't have to travel far distances if they have something wrong. Likewise, Line 1 trains mostly stored at Wilson can have a shortcut to the busier Yonge line, meaning more trains can be deployed faster. Can you link some sources on opponents to the west extension (if possible)? Thank you & good vid!
That part of Sheppard is pretty low density with lots of empty parks. The traffic isn’t too bad, and buses already provide decent service to the area, and you only have to ride the bus for a short while before you get to a subway station. Meanwhile, on the eastern extension, there are already huge condo towers with thousands of people waiting for better transit. The existing bus service always gets jammed up at the 404 crossing. And the area doesn’t have any nearby subway service, so there’s a huge catchment area of people who might ride down to Sheppard to catch the subway.
@@my2iu transfering onto a bus only to ride it a couple of km actually adds a lot of time to your commute. Even if buses do come every few minutes (tbf the 84 bus already does), that still means getting up from you seat, and running upstairs for a service that runs in a straight line, something an subway extension can easily carry.
Also adding an eastern extension adds more riders, that still ends up funnelling them into the already congested Sheppard-Yonge interchange. That means more congestion on the Yonge-side Line 1, and congestion on the 84 bus.
@@my2iuit’s low density because IT LACKS the subway. Look at Eglinton and its transformation. Wherever you build the subway, that area becomes dense naturally. Don Mills is another example….Sheppard line should absolutely be extended west as well. I’m tired of Toronto behaving like its a small mid-tier city still. It just surpassed Chicago a few years ago and politicians still think it’s the Toronto from 1935.
Development in the city should reflect its size….they like to cater to the yuppies downtown, while the vast majority of Toronto residents in the boughs are ignored.
Enough.
@@verynonexistent I’m not saying the bus is perfect, but that it works fine. And many people who need to do that trip will already be on a bus anyway, so transferring to another bus is no big deal. Unless you specifically need to go to York University or Yorkdale, then just connecting to the other end of Line 1 isn’t that useful. You’ll probably want to continue riding the bus further on. For example, if I lived at Finch and Yonge, and I wanted to go to York University, I’d probably take the bus down Finch. It doesn’t really make sense for me to go down to Sheppard, cross over to Sheppard West, and then travel back up. The same goes for people living at, say, Lawrence-Yonge and who want to go to York University.
@@TMBpk Scarborough has no subway, and they’ve built tons of high density housing, and they’re building more. The area of Sheppard for the west extension is low density because the residents there want to have low density (or maybe there’s an issue with the airport). I know that residents are unhappy with medium sized condo towers on Sheppard only a block or two west of Yonge. Unless you want the province to ram down giant condo towers down the throats of the residents along the west extension, then it’s just not as promising as the east extension or a Finch extension.
I hope it gets extended east to Kennedy and west to Dufferin
The western extension to Sheppard West station infinitely makes Line 4 more useful. Yes, it's low density, but we created a mess by creating a stubway in a low-density area of Toronto. The western connection makes it easier for Line 1 and 4 trains to get to Wilson. It also makes it infinitely easier for students to get from Scarborough to York U. And it opens up the possiblilty of interlining Lines 1 and 4. Let's make the line useful!
There's more too, there's also the connection to the finch line via line 1, Barrie line at downsview park station via line 1, and a future Bolton go train connection.
Build it and they will come ...
Borrow the money and connect the loops. All the best systems are grids not these 1 way lines. I don't care if the current areas are low density. They won't be for long, especially Sheppard W. It I'd clearly needed and is only going to cost more and more the longer we wait. Get it done.
Totally agree.
The TTC actually investigated several options for the transfer at or near Don Mills Road with the existing Line 4 Sheppard subway. The main obstacle is Highway 404, which the LRT may have to tunnel under, and the fact that the subway is located 18 metres (59 ft) below grade at this point.
Original options
Surface LRT Connection: Hwy 404 bridge expanded to maintain existing traffic lanes and incorporate two lanes for LRT in the Centre. Traffic lanes reduced near Don Mills Road to allow LRT stop on surface, in the Centre of Sheppard - a wide Centre platform would include stairs and elevators connecting to the mezzanine level of the subway station.
Underground LRT Connection 1: Tunnel under Highway 404 beginning west of Consumers Road and connecting to the mezzanine/concourse level of the subway (one level below the surface, one level above the subway.)
Underground LRT Connection 2: Tunnel under Highway 404 beginning west of Consumers Road and "butting up" against the east end of the subway platform (two levels below the surface.)
Subway Extension 1: Extend the subway to Consumers Road area and build an LRT connection there.
Subway Extension 2: Shallow subway extension to Consumers Road with LRT station in the middle of Sheppard Avenue and a direct passage to the subway below.
Recommended options
Option 3 - Underground LRT Connection 2
Option 3 proposed building an underground connection to the subway platform level at Don Mills. The subway platform would be extended east, with LRT tracks built on either side, allowing for a level transfer.
For customers east of Victoria Park and destined to the subway, Option 3 has the same pros as Option 5, but at a lower cost, and the tunnel construction would be designed to allow for a future subway extension. But it has the cons of separation between subway and LRT still under policy discussion; separation between vehicles could be 100 to 125 metres (328 to 410 ft).
Option 5 - Subway Extension 2
Option 5 proposed building a shallow subway extension to Consumers Road and connecting with the Sheppard East LRT at a surface-level LRT station. The LRT station would be built in the middle of Sheppard Avenue (east of Consumers Road), with direct passageways to the Line 4 station below.
Option 5 avoids the need for travelers from the business park to travel one stop, then transfer to the subway as per Option 3; given that, it is seen as a more effective catalyst for more dense, transit-oriented development in the area of the station. This option, however, is much more expensive than Option 3 and requires more detailed design work to determine if a "shallow" subway extension is achievable. More work is required to determine the depth needed to avoid the settlement near the Highway 404 bridge and to avoid the large, 6-metre-deep (20 ft) sanitary sewer near Consumers Road.
The main Decision is;
The answer is *Option 3 b/c the TTC has decided on option 3. Sheppard East LRT which runs from Victoria Park North to Morningside Ave./Toronto Zoo, and Extend Line 4 Sheppard East and West from Sheppard West to Scarborough Centre via Victoria Park North*
As I see it, both extensions have their benefits.
If the Sheppard line is extended to the existing Sheppard West Station, staff and students going to and from York University will rely less on other routes to get to their destination. All staff and students will need to do is transfer to Sheppard West Station and head three stations north.
If the Sheppard line is extended east of Don Mills Road, it will certainly give transit users another option to get to where they’re going instead of using existing perpendicular bus routes (for example, 24 Victoria Park) to connect to Line 2, the Bloor-Danforth line. As mentioned in the video, this extension will potentially connect with the Scarborough Town Centre-now that Line 3, the Scarborough RT, is defunct-and easternmost sectors of the city, including the Toronto Zoo.
In either scenario, cost seems to be the greatest disadvantage. If tunnelling is the main concern, why doesn’t Metrolinx consider extending either end of the Sheppard line using an elevated train pathway? Montreal’s newly opened REM (Réseau express métropolitain) is built this way. Only three stations are tunnelled: Central Station (Gare centrale) and two future stations, McGill and Édouard-Montpetit. Metrolinx could potentially tunnel between Don Mills Station and Victoria Park. From Victoria Park, the rest of the extension would be elevated. West of Yonge, there could be a tunnel to Senlac Road, leaving most of the western extension elevated until Wilson Heights Blvd. To complete the extension, a tunnel could connect Wilson Heights to Sheppard West Station.
Based on other transit videos I’ve watched, elevated train pathways are **much** less expensive than tunnelling and can be built quicker. Something for the Metrolinx team to consider.
That’s my two cents. (-:
It is worth noting that 1/4 of the tunnel for the western extension of Line 4 has already been built. Right now, it mostly exists to store extra trains and because of it, the city could technically build a new station at Senlac without requiring any more tunnel construction. Opponents of this extension are so obsessed with the low density of the region between Sheppard-Yonge and Sheppard West stations, while failing to consider that Sheppard-Yonge is a part of the North York Centre, a region literally built around the subway when Line 1 got extended to Finch. If the west extension gets built, the development will surely follow too.
Elevated rails are much nicer but they should make sense. I personally think the entirety of the west extension should just remain tunneled because of how brief an elevated section there would be anyways. As for the east extension, tunnel boring machines would have to be used between Don Mills and Consumers Drive, but cut-and-cover construction could very well be used from Consumers to the station at Kennedy. And Metrolinx, for god’s sakes please just make the Kennedy Road station allow for an easy transfer to Agincourt GO. Don’t go through with building a new station directly south of it for no reason…
Beyond that, assuming Line 4 will go to Scarborough Centre it may be beneficial for the city to re-use some of the old track structure from the Scarborough RT, although renovated to deal with the safety issues that caused the line to close in the first place. They would still need to build or re-build stations at Triton and Scarborough Centre to facilitate longer, 6-car trains, but overall it would likely be much less expensive. A portal would just need to be built somewhere between Agincourt and Triton.
@@ChromatiXWasTaken I love the cut-and-cover concept! I’m sure it would take less time to build cut-and-cover stations than to build tunnels between Consumers Drive and Kennedy (or Scarborough Town Centre).
A city Toronto's size should really have more subway lines.
If theyre going to mobilize the staff and money for an extension do it completely. Bring it to Sheppard West and then out to Sheppard to make it a more full subway rather than dumping entirely onto Line 1. Redo the land use planning along the corridor for higher density housing and use the D/C in this area to help pay for the subway cost. If they work to make redevelopment in this area faster and use the funds for the subway extension they can fix the lower density areas with more riders and pay for it partially at the same time.
You only need Bathurst. Make another entrance to Sheppard W. station for Wilson Heights. I'm pretty sure that would be cheaper than an actual train station at Wilson Hts.
One of the biggest issues with the current transit network in Toronto is the lack of completed network loops, and usually the loops that could exist are only broken by a gap of would would be less than 3 stations. In additional the the Sheppard East and West extension already mentioned, extending the Sheppherd Line from Sheppherd West further to Finch would allow transfers to the new Finch LRT, avoiding a 2 stop ride on the University Line just to connect to the Sheppherd Line and continue East from the Finch LRT. Theres also the streetcar gap between Dufferin Loop Station and Exhibition which would be only 1 maybe 2 stops to fill in, though the TTC/Metrolinx has confirmed this gap will be filled as part of the Exhibition GO renovations already ongoing.
Another gap is between Long Branch GO where the Lakeshore West Streetcar terminates and Kipling GO where the Bloor Line terminates, which could be filled by an extension to Sherway Gardens Mall and then tunneling south to Long Branch with an extra stop in Alderwood, a neighborhood currently without any rail-based transit that goes north at all. Alternatively if the Toronto North GO Train were to be implemented it could start at Port Credit with the connection to the Hurontario LRT, then after Long Branch take the bypass corridor north to Kipling and then continue on along the CP corridor parallel to Davenport all the way up past the Science Center for connections with the Eglington and Ontario Lines, at connection as close to Agnicourt GO as possible, and an eastern terminus at Sheppherd and McCowan where the Sheppherd East and Bloor East extension will also terminate. With a Toronto North GO line like this a Bloor Line extension west from Kipling would still be useful but it could be all above ground just parallel to the Milton GO line with a brand new stations at the north part of the Sherway Gardens shopping area and at Cawtha Road in addition to stops as Dixie GO and terminating at Cooksville GO for connections to the Hurontario LRT.
Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this. I wonder if it makes sense to extend the Sheppard line east to Scarborough Town Centre and have it link up to the Danforth line extension to form a single long Bloor/Danforth/McCowan/Sheppard subway line. There's a lot of opportunity to increase residential density on Sheppard East. I'm also thinking trains would be able to keep moving instead of wasting time bunching up at end stations to turn around.
Well it would essentially already be doing that.
It would be great if they put turn on/off onto the Sheppard line so trains could be run on both lines or used to balance traffic in the event of an emergency. The turn on would need to go both north and south onto the Scarborough subway to be effective.
any East west connection for North York is heavily needed, period. Even the Finch West LRT should have been ran all the way to Finch station and arguably to Scarborough as another option for crosstown. I really think they should extend line 4 to Sheppard West AND to an extent Downsview Park for the convenient transfer to GO Station. Redundancy is never rarely bad in train system as it provides alternatives for transit users.
I think so too.
I know the one to Morningside May take the longest, and it may be the most expensive, but that’s better for Scarborough, I don’t live in Scarborough but I do go on a car ride in Scarborough every once in a while, especially on Sheppard. And while driving along Sheppard I can just see in my mind a Subway entrance at almost every major street all the way to Morningside.
People have been asking for this since the early 2000's. These planners only cater to the high income areas, not where the people traveling live
@@kodguerrero Maybe when you get a subway, all the rich people move there and push out the poor people? So if you want affordable housing, you simply have to be willing to live in an area with worse transportation options because that will make it cheaper?
@@my2iu But that increases the transportation cost and time for those people, who already struggle to get to and from work.
More public transit is always better and takes cars off the road which we all desperately need
High income earners drive. They are NIMBY,S and do not like construction getting dust on their BMW'S
The Sheppard east LRT line would sure a lot more people in the north east side of Scarborough because the Sheppard east LRT line would run on surface road just like the part of the Eglinton crosstown LRT, Finch west LRT, and Hurontario LRT line.
Makes sense to extend this "stump" both ways..west through new DV neighborhood & to L1 i west & also extend East to connect to L2 & Scboro extension & future SB lrt eastward
We need both! I know it'll be super expensive, but just like chemotherapy, at this point it's vital we do so. Without significant increased density along new subway routes, we won't be able to get anywhere near our housing goals and people and business will flee Toronto in droves and the city will die!
It'd be good if, rather than to Meadowvale Rd, the Sheppard Subway extended southwards after Morningside to UTSC, where it could interchange with an eastern extension of Line 5 (Line 7), creating an interregional transit hub there where GO and Durham buses could connect as well.
Good too, if the gov't's highway tunnel proposal premutated into a Sheppard extension not only from UTSC to Sheppard west Station, but even further west to at least Weston Rd or better yet, crossing the valley to link up with Albion Rd.
Agree, the city needs to build proper hubs at each side and use them to connect to TTC and GO transit and the local transit systems. Ideally, the west hub could be built in the airport, and can serve as terminus for the Shepard line, the Eglington LRT and would link to UP Express and Mississauga and Brampton BRTs. That way the line can provide reasonably direct links between all major suburbs without unnecessarily funneling people downtown.
Mine would be Concept 2B Scarborough Centre/Sheppard West Extension and then build the Sheppard East LRT to run from Kennedy North/Agincourt to Morningside/Toronto Zoo
Any extension of this line has to reach Sheppard West...its sensible and needed. Period!!
Western extension should go to Finch West not Sheppard West station. It would save a transfer for those using Finch West LRT and the Sheppard Line to go across the north of the city.
Eastern extension to STC makes far more sense. STC is a major centre in itself but also an important transfer hub with both TTC and GO services there. Again would save a lot of people a pointless transfer.
Running it entirely along Sheppard would be completely non-sensical. Toronto needs to lose its near-religious obsession with the grid.
they real only need the Bathurst station ..for the west end.. consumers..vp..warden.. ken/go mc cowan ..
A lot of what you’re saying is just re-stating the plans that were already shown, but I will comment on the west extension part. In my opinion having only 1 station in between Yonge Street and Dufferin Street is terribly infrequent especially considering Line 2 has *6* stations in between Yonge Street and Dufferin Street. And I know Line 2 is going to have a much higher station density considering it is in the downtown core of Toronto, but it’s not like Line 4 is entirely suburban either. Even though the extension would be going through areas that are kind of suburban and low-density right now, it’s worth remembering that Sheppard-Yonge station is a part of the North York Centre, a high density region of Toronto that is a pretty good example of transit-oriented development in the city. If Line 1 never got extended to Finch, the area would not exist in the same way.
With that in mind, having the stations there to facilitate a potential urban up-spring in the corridor would make meeting capacity easier and cheaper. Say only the station at Bathurst Street gets built and the entire corridor ends up getting the North York Centre treatment. The stations at Senlac and Wilson Heights would have been needed regardless if that were to occur, and building them later would be harder due to potential higher density. Building a transit system isn’t just about serving high-density places; it’s about having enough foresight to prepare for potential urban developments that could follow suit.
@@ChromatiXWasTaken Senlac a waste of money.. and Wilson height.. well you would just have the connection at Sheppard west.. plus it "could" get built in a faster time
@@rah2389 Nah. It really isn’t. It allows for more connection points especially if the area densifies *like I said it could*, and also what’s the point of having a transit system when the stations on a subway are so far apart from each other? Projects costing less may be appealing, but lower costs often come at the sacrifice of a worse transit system.
then they could run 3rd rail line down the Allen to Eglinton run express line
@@rah2389 ?
Scarborough sure feels dead. They have talked about the Kennedy Station for a few decades. My parents gambled on this and are now dead.
Ugh, AI voice
Shut down the subway and make it an LRT that connects to the Finch West LRT, then east to Meadowvale
Go back to playing Sim City….don’t comment on real world issues.
Terrible idea. Downgrading lines to a lower level of operation just because they’re not hitting their highest capacity levels now would mean there is much less potential capacity if the line gets busier. Subways have much more capacity than LRTs, and if the line gets extended it would be able to see much more ridership.
If the LRT idea came from the old “Sheppard East LRT” from the same transit plan that included the Eglinton Crosstown and Finch West, the idea is the most laughable out of all of the lines proposed in that plan. All it would have done was create an inefficient transfer and a portion of the line with much less capacity because… why? Cost savings? Subways just carry more people than LRTs do.
@@ChromatiXWasTaken not a bad idea. The Sheppard line should’ve been the York extension that goes into Vaughan on Line 1. As it stands, our transit expansion lacks continuity and congruence. Getting on rapid transit in Scarborough and having one transit ride with no transfers to Humber Collage would be invaluable.
@@Matt-nw2te I *kind of* agree with your statement? I do think transit planners are too obsessed with the grid as things stand right now which prevents actually stronger transit connections to be made. But downgrading the line just so it can connect with the Finch West LRT is not something that *any* professional transit planner would have any reason to do. Because, once again, that would mean reducing the amount of capacity for a line that would definitely need the capacity if it is to connect Scarborough Centre, the Toronto Zoo, and *maybe* Centennial College? Not exactly ideal.
they should have LRT from finch down to Kingston via old line 3 use old stations and right of way add loop south of Kenndey to scar go.. then add loop to zoo etc.