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@ItsMe_-lo5zg 1.) most people theorize that base Natsu's flames are at least 200 Million Degrees Celsius, because he scales above magnetic confinement fusion. 2.) Some people argue that Natsu's flames can burn "concepts" such as time or space. But aside from that, Natsu doesn't have any boundless arguments. So I'd say he does have a limit (it's just a very debatable one) 3.) I believe Natsu would beat Escanor, since Sunshine is a fire based power. If Natsu ate it? He would likely just become "The One" and beat Escanor. At least IMO. Hope that answers your questions, thanks for the comments!
@James-oj1vs he burned time. Also, I would like to mention that natsu has high battle adaptability and he's very creative. If he wanted to, he could cast an aura of flame around his body, so even if he's not fast enough, Shinra would still be taking damage or probably won't be able to get close. It's also shown time and time again that natsu has incredible durability.
There is another, if something in that fight forces him to turn into E.N.D. In anime there's a character that has an ability that stops time, but natsu as E.N.D was able to move regardless.
@@James-oj1vs Natsu burns Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize their soul resonance. Without Shinrabanshoman none of the 3 are a threat to Natsu. Easy dub.
Bansho wins, but shinra loses. Even if we interpret Shinra to be faster than light, Natsu has both eaten other forms of magic, and moved through stopped time. He could quite literally eat shinra's particals as Shinra is trying to kick him back in time, which would essentially erase part of shinra from existance. Edit - for those of you who only read this comment and not anything else attatched to it, maybe read the other replies before repeating what other people have already said.
He moved through stop time because he burned stop time. He didn't move through. Stop time with pure speed. People need to get that. He did not move in time because of his speed. He burned the time magic that doesn't count as a speed feat
And he wouldn't be able to eat seamless particles because they wouldn't be made of fire. They're made of him or something else which in the end doesn't matter because he wouldn't be able to react in time. He would kick him back in the past and the kick would apply to the present or he could take him and kidnap him to the past and leave him being quite literally the opposite of what happened to Natsu when he was a child He just doesn't have the reaction time and the kick would work because it's his foot not fire
Well.. its not technically shinra. Its a combination of him, sho, and his mom, so its like saying gogeta (the fusion of goku and vegeta) is just goku. But its not
@whispertangle4136 not only did I already say this on a comment attached to this one, I was just making a joke. I understand that banshoman can't be achieved without soul resonance
also mashima has stated that the Key of the starry skies and the eclipse spirits arc are canon to both the manga and the anime, even though the arcs are anime exclusives
Some interpretations that werent mentioned: natsus mftl might be as consistent as his irrelevant. Anchologia was able to move in a void without time (which is a better form of speed than shirnas) but natsu doesn't scale to that anchologia (yet) so that's up on the air but still we have natsu move through stopped time with his flames burning time, whether you want to consider it haxs or immeasurable speed it's up to you. Then there is zeref erasing the universe which would be low multiversal because of there being 3 infinite sized realms in the ft world. Then there is ultear and her magic being multi+ ridiculously enough and he should scale above her for several reasons. Now for the non universal stuff (since this is normal shirna and not banshoman who is also in the universal ranges) we've got Lucy throwing 88 stars at her opponent. But outside of that I think that's all the interpretations that make sense to me
While I don't really agree with the Ultear arguments, as I've mentioned in the past. Pretty much everything else you mention here, is another valid way of looking at things. The reason I didn't bring some of it up, is because of redundancy. Since while you can argue that Zeref is Uni+/Low Multi because of Neo Eclipse. You could also argue that Base Shinra is Uni+/Low Multi due to scaling off Adola or Sho freezing the universe. And while Natsu has "burned time" in the past. Because we've only ever seen him do it against Zeref's magic, and because time hax via Neo Eclipse was implied to still be a threat to Natsu. I just decided to ignore any infinite speed Natsu arguments. Since I didn't want to open the can of worms- about what he actually "burns" in that scene. But anyways, solid breakdown! And thanks for the comment.
@@TUCKALMIGHTY no problem, I mostly mentioned them for others interested, it's extremely unreasonable to expect a none 3 hour long video to go through every single way you can scale natsu and fairy tail in general, I havent read fire force so I have no idea how you'd get adola to low multi (not asking for spoilers just saying why I didn't mention it myself)
@lore766 Yeah, Fairy Tail definitely has a lot of conflicting metas, so It's definitely worth mentioning them! As for Low-Multi Adola, without spoiling too much, Adola is basically described as a parallel universe to ours (which on it's own can vary, from 3D, to Infinite 3D, to 4D depending on who you ask) But some people argue that because Adola is stated to encompass all human concepts(such as dimensionality) and is occasionally portrayed as a higher dimension itself. We should treat it, as a baseline 4D or 5D structure no different than a typical a multiverse. I personally have mixed feelings on that interpretation. But if you're just curious about Low-Multi Adola, That's pretty much where it comes from.
I would disagree with acnologia, if we are talking about the space between time, why? The reason is that the speed where he is moving isnt outside the time axis, but he is unnafected of the changes in the time affecting him or his surroundings, that wouldnt qualify as a irrelevant or infinite speed but the quality of atemporal character for the definition of not being able to be affected by changes in time around him (in other words keeping his own time unnafected ) , not in the definition of trascending or controling time entirely (since atemporal characters cover a spectrum of characteristics), i would argue shinra (not talking about shinrabanshoman, Who can escape time by moving) also doesnt have it, because he isnt moving outside of time, but the rules of his own world changes while something is moving at ls (relativistic law of physics apply in fire force) and the use of adolla corroborate this, since the adolla flame changes the property of the World around the user, therefore this would qualify as a hax or an ability more than a speed meta, outside of fire force and the law of relativity, shinra would be a ftl character using his rapid or his adolla in comparison to characters like rimuru, flash, and alphamon (from digimon) who are 3 different type of escaping the time axis even without relying abilities
Nah i swear natsu would go full END and react to whatever shinra or bansho does, cuz like he could move in stopped time when he was END (or he will simply demolish shinra by raw will power and strength )
This isn’t related to the video at all, but I wanted to personally scale Shinra based off research I did cuz many people will say he’s outer while others will say he’s planetary even though I don’t thinkeither seems to be the case and let me explain. Overall: 5D (Multiversal) and has immeasurable speed. I’ll talk about immeasurable speed first cuz it’s the shortest and easiest for me to explain. According to vsbattles fandom and I quote: “Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed.” At the end of the manga, Shinra talks about how he traveled to the past so many times when he was recreating civilization on earth because of some mistakes he made in the process thus showing that he does have immeasurable speed since he’s able to manipulate time as a predetermined construct allowing him to reverse/fast forward timelines casually and Tuck here did a great job explaining even further. Now for the reason why I believe he’s 5D. First let’s make it clear that Shinra banshoman is NOT planetary. The fire force wiki states: “Through the manipulation of Adolla, Shinrabanshō-man can manipulate, reshape, and warp reality by manipulate fire, heat, energy and matter in order to create Life and reshape the world. This is not limited to affecting himself as others managed but the ability to manipulate the entire universe, instead of separate objects or beings.” And if that’s not enough, Shinra was able to manipulate the concept of death and google states that death is an inevitable process of the universe. Since death is considered one of the universal truths, that automatically means that manipulating the concept of death is another universal feature. Keep in mind that Shinra can also manipulate life, space, etc and not just death making him more powerful than what others who call him planetary think. In addition, since Adolla is the subconscious of the human mind, it represents concepts such as mathematics, dimensionality, and human law/ideologies such as life, death, time, space, law, etc. That also includes the concept and ideology of heaven and hell. Many people today when talking from a tiering system point of view believe that heaven and hell are considered to be 4th dimensional. Adolla or the Evangelist itself is above all of these things that I mentioned including heaven and hell, thus logically meaning that Adolla is above 4D and at least 5D. Shinra casually scales above the Evangelist since he whoops Adolla’s ass at its prime like child’s play. According to verse and dimensions fandom it says “A simple conception of a multiverse is 5-Dimensional space, with several four dimensional universe-"lines" arranged in a stack in a 5 dimensional space.” This is why I believe Shinra Banshoman is at a multiversal level because although he hasn’t shown any Multiversal feats, the research shown here tells that Shinra does have the capability to be a multiversal threat. I don’t think he’s outeversal because like the manga says, Adolla is the embodiment of HUMANITY’S subconscious thus already limiting how far Shinra Banshoman can go because humans are limited in knowledge and what we can understand/comprehend the general idea of conceptuality but at the same time he’s def not planetary based off the info I just explained. So once again to recap: -5D (Multiversal) -Immeasurable speed Conclusion: Natsu and Shinra are both shonen goats and would love to see death battle animate this fight if they can🐐🐐
@@1922_kinda_girl no he doesn’t there around the same speed in anime and nastu legit eats fire and turns into into his own power and the more powerful the fire the stronger he gets. Also Manga shinra just obliterates, diverse no questions asked
@@MasonRiders Sho’s severed universe is an ability that allows him to use his adolla burst connection and manipulate and seal the heat of the expansion of the universe, which allows him to form his own universe around himself a uni feat, which as a result stops the normal expansion rate of the normal universe and stops time as well, and while still being able to move freely. With this in mind it’s been shown in the anime many times that his body has been able to endure severed universe, which has also been compared the same amount of energy as the Big Bang,which would constitute this as a Universal+ Dura Feat. Further more Shinra is able to damage Sho multiple times in the fight which would give Shinra uni ap. This would scale him above Natsu.
Finally someone uses logic and not fake light speed shit. But to be fair Shinra is not speed blitzing him of the bat and Natsu getting and adolalink is likely as Shinra normal flames are adola flames and th other two are a little unlike both situations played out before due to him part being a demon and dragon so interpretation 3 is mostly the case
there's also the fact that Natsu plays around with the person he's fighting to get an idea of HOW the fight (see GMG fight against Sting and Rogue). And he's too hardheaded to just die. Plus the fact he is TECHNICALLY a living zombie.
Adolla burst is enough tbh. Also i think the eating flames arguement is overused. There are examples of natsu being in positions he cant consume flames and other elements hes been able to eat. Lets not act like eating flames is omnidirectional or something. But yeah, adolla burst should win this, literally the power of the collective unconscious.
@@CrucialMutual Natsu can react to attacks that travel through time so Shinra needs more than that lil gimmick. Natsu can consume fire from any direction. If he’s against Shinra using his ignition abilities then Natsu really isn’t even threatened by Shinra. He’d need to keep his guard up cus of Shinra’s speed but that’s really about it. Shinrabanshoman handles much better but Natsu can still win by burning Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize the soul resonance.
I wanna preface this with I haven’t finished reading fire force but i think I know the main bullet point feats at the end of series) I feel like this has to be revisited with 100 year quest Natsu vs bansho(I know it’s a resonance but it’s a cool comparison lol) Even in the Alvarez arc Natsu was moving in time stop effortlessly(although it was END and idk if it’s bc of the curse/magic matchups) But he also was able to beat fairy heart zeref by apparently “burning through his magic over time and space” Basically it seems like at this point Natsu is burning through concepts like said power or immortality
Here is the commonly accepted definition for immeasurable speed: “Immeasurable Speed: (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied.)” So? If the normal speed formula is distance divided by time (Miles Per Hour, Kilometers Per Hour, etc.) But Shinra can arrive infinity distance, in negative time. Then he is explicitly outside the scopes of speed, making him, by definition. Unable to be measured by the formula. We also know that Shinra can fight/operate at those speeds. Since we see him talk & react with other people inside the space between time. Hope that helps, thanks for the comment.
@@samuraixronin4630 yes. Fairy Heart Zeref is stronger than Shinrabanshoman. Natsu would burn Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls making their Soul Resonance fail and forcing them all apart into their base forms. At that point it’s a stomp.
i never count Banshoman unless someone is specifically stating its banshoman shinra and not just shinra shinra, since remember, banshoman is a fusion, therefore in a 1v1 battle he wouldnt have access to banshoman
@@mono_akumu if you are comparing Death the Kid to someone for a vs debate do you include Liz and Patty or do you only strictly go off feats for Kid alone?
@@Shadowwarrior996 Well the difference is Shinra is a character with his own power and Kid is a character who consistently uses Liz and Patty in his fights unless he explicitly chooses not to. They are his weapons, as Hal, John and Kyle have the Green Lantern rings as theirs, or how Asta can unite with the devil in his grimoire for a power boost because they are intrinsically linked. You wouldn't put Goku against Superman and say: "WeLl GoGeTa," because that requires another completely seperate character.
If shinra is making himself go so fast he goes into the past, he is affecting himself, rather than the entire universe, it’s like a needle going through a quilt/cloth etc, to even if what you guys are saying, “Natsu can negate the status effect” for one reason or the other, he himself has to have the same, or greater abilities than shinra in order to be able to match him, so if he can’t do that, all this “fire eating” logic is essentially useless
A needle going through a quilt/cloth would tear a hole in said quilt/cloth. That's why Shinra is effectively manipulating the universe. As for the fire eating stuff? We know that Adola Links can grant Adola Graces. We know fire is bonded with Natsu once he eats it. And we know that other Gen 4 pyros could fight Shinra. So even though it's not the most likely scenario. If Natsu could eat Shinra's flames, that sort of PIS is honestly pretty likely to occur for both characters IMO.
I guess it really depends on if Shinra goes all out at first or not. If he doesn't, Natsu would win, but if he does, he would win. But besides all that really good video 👍.
In all honestly i say let this cook more natsu story is not finished yet since 100 year quest manga is still going on and its getting its anime adaptation soon so natsu could very well get some powers to fuck with shinra real life physics
@@Keith_Norman Natsu was FTL at the beginning of the series, furthermore he even reacted to attacks that travel through time so even Shinra’s grace won’t save him. Shinra can’t take away control of Natsu’s fire he proved to have sole control of his powers also near the beginning of the series. Natsu has better strength and speed feats than Shinra.
@@Shadowwarrior996 he was not FTL at the beginning of the series and that traveling through time thing has a hax or Natsu magic was stronger than hers so no
@@Keith_Norman Natsu in chapter 2 blitzed Krov who is light speed. So yes he is FTL at the beginning of the series. Natsu wasn’t stronger than Ultear at the time she was literally using less than half her power and she said this outright after the fight. Natsu was simply fast enough to react to her attacks so Shinra needs more than that lil gimmick to beat the real goat of fire users. Shinrabanshoman makes it close and a good debate but Natsu can still win by burning Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize their soul resonance.
Shinrabanshōman created the Soul Eater Verse (sorta? he altered his own universe by getting rid of the concept of the Fear Of Death, plus he defeated a Universal level threat)
@@phantom9831 true, but what i do for these vs things, is take the strongest forms for ALL participants. but yes, i agree, it isnt even just shinra (its him, his brother, and his mother i think)
First of all you didn't include the fact that Natsu is moving at immeasurable speed since FH Zeref transcends the concept of space-time and fully take control over it, no matter how much you twist those light speed move it's still on light speed scale it doesn't surpasses that, it doesn't even come close to infinite speed which is instantaneous and inaccessible speed which is to be applied on someone who can casually walk in a time stop. Second Sho is only slowing down the universe expansion causing the flow of time to slow down which is similar to time stop, Dimaria and Base Zeref time stop would fodderized Shinra even in his Banshoman form since their magic is much superior to Chronos which is the God of Time
Shinra can stop time with his speed. Sho steals the expansion of the universe and creates his own universe which 3 times faster than ours, stopping time.
@@jaiy1321 The fire force speed of light theory follows the same theory as ours where by moving faster than light one can travel through time, but this also limit Shinra speed to doesn't exist beyond FTL, so anyone beyond FTL can easily speed blitz him. Sho only slows down the expansion of the universe by cooling it down, during so it appears that time stops, but this also debunks the universe since it's still expanding it only means that it's not even infinite, unlike FT Cosmology who's stated by Ultear to have an infinite universe, parallel universe and mathematical dimensions. Cosmology alone>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fire Force and soul eater
@lostsignature9535 No, ftl is Shinra's requirement, his speed is still immeasurable. Even if you are mftl, you won't even perceive him since he disappears. It doesn't debunk anything, the Fire Force universe has been stated to be infinite. He stills the heat of the universe and create his own universe. Since the universe has no heat, time stops, not slows down, actually stop, stated by the narrator, Sho, and Licht as well as Haumea. His universe is 3 times faster than the other universe. Adolla contains an infinite number of dimensions as well as the concept of mathematics
@@jaiy1321 Lol adolla is only a collection of human ideation and how they view the universe it doesn't change the fact that human is only 3D and they view the universe as 4D, like I said Fire Force follows the same logic and theory in real life, Shinra never once shows that he transcends the concept of space-time he's only manipulating it which you can argue his Hax being 4D since he created soul eater verse, but his DC is only Large Planetary - Dwarf Star. Do you even know how immeasurable speed works? That BS got debunked a long time ago only a few fire force fanboys defend it since it lacks context and is too debunkable
@@jaiy1321 Fire Force universe is still expanding it doesn't change infinity yet, unlike FT universe who's already infinite around 400 years ago before the first episode
Natsu claps shinra until bansho shinra steps up, natsu is immune to any type of fire and can eat it to power himself up and he also can burn time itself.
I actually think natsu should be able to hit shinra even with the lightspeed teleportation thing he got. Natsu has dragon slayer senses. He should just be able to smell him before he reappears and adapt to how he’s fighting. Now natsu has no way of moving as fast as shinra unless he eats his flames. But natsu can also move at lightspeeds and has been since tower of heaven. natsu was also able to move in stopped time we seen it in the final season against Dimaria So if natsu could adapt mid fight before shinra pulls out all them hax. Then i can see him beating shinra but its all interpretation like you said 🤷🏾♂️
I really liked how you explain to this. You did it perfectly and yeah shinra Simply Just wins both base form and obviously shinrabansho He would do exactly as he said he could kick him in the pass and the past tick would happen in the present or he could just kick him in the present at speeds. He can't react. That's just true. He simply can't and to anyone who says oh Natsu can move and stop time. He burned the time magic that wasn't a speed feat And of course we can't really count for Natsu getting his own adola burst since That could be literally anything and we have no way to say what it will be, so that's not a valid arguement
Can't say he burned stopped time against the timestop girl, he simply just moved and blitzed her while time was stopped. It's nit like he forced time to unfreeze, he just moved during it
I'm not sure if this is like a power creep for kaiju no.8 Cuz I'm avoiding the manga Or any spoilers. But I highly doubt that he reaches Goku levels cuz I would have seen him somewhere in some video as one of those stronger anime that this is a joke
Shinra-banshōman created gods with control over life an death, he was capable of ignoring the laws of physics, he could rewind time infinitely to recreate a perfect universe, he was immune to (debatably) conceptual erasure, and he could easily defeat characters capable of manipulating the entire universe. Those are the pretty much the usual reasons why Shinra-banshōman is hyped up so much. Hope that helps, thanks for the comment!
what if natsu just burnt time then what ? how can shinra travl back when time itself is being burnt also natsu can move in stopped time vs acnologia so yeah natsu can never out speed shinra but natsu can counter shinra when shinra re appears as both of their reaction speed is instantanious .
It's not the same. When he burned time he was burning Time magic that was stopping time around him. In this case, shinra isn't stopping time. He's just moving so fast. Time isn't moving so he can't burn that because it isn't affecting him in a way he can burn it. It's literally just he's so fast. Time isn't moving. You understand
And to the react when he reappears, he would reappear with his foot in natsu's face. He can't react if his foot's already touching his face sending him flying across the sky
@@doriankamanzi6874 he can considering it takes him 0 sec to react. think of natsu have his hands every where his body and no where at the same time thats what instantanious means . being able to move with no time being somewhere and not being there at once. think of people who move at 0 time to be like shrodingeers cat where they are in a state of defending attacking reaction relaxing countering all at once. u cant measure his movement speed .
@@doriankamanzi6874 zeref magic allows him to control time not make time so natsu is burning time itself not magic . not really for shinra time isnt moving for everyone else it is still moving if natsu can remove time at a specfic area shinra cant accelarate to light speed and beyond lightspeed like he usally does .
@@techgeek123-em7uf zerfes Power was to control time right and how he was using that to affect time was he was using his mag the mag that was freezing time so time flowed again he wasn't burning time You burn the magic that is stopping time then what is there left? There is time which can now flow again. He was burning that said magic. That's what he's been doing throughout the series. Right after that he proceeds to keep burning magic, but even if we say he Burns time itself, that won't change anything because he would still be able to kick him at that same said speed even if the time in that area is gone because he'd still be moving at a speed of which he can't react to
Hmmm shinra might speed blitz natsu and yeah natsu eat fire but shinra does shoot fire his feet are covered in it so whats natsu gonna do bite his foot which again he cant keep up but lets say he could and ate the fire off shinras feet (freaky) shinra would still be moving at mach speed it ain't like he freeze in time if his fire go out in the middle of him moving so yh shinra wins Simple explanation Shinra too fast and if natsu eat his fire while shinra attacking thats still a foot hitting natsu at mach speed just without the fire on it
Nah. You were 100% wrong on the Shinra is capped at Light Speed. I wish we could send VM I would explain... But here's a littlle way to prove you are wrong... Shinra travelled from earth to the moon to push the falling moon back into orbit in less than 1 second. without using the lightspeed stuff. Just his pure base speed. Meaning his base is not capped at light speed Plus, what it says isn't that he is capped at light speed. But rather, "by going beyond the speed of light, he is able to travel through time/manipulate time". Key word "BEYOND" Which means he isn't capped at LS Also. I n season 2 of Fire Force Shinra dodged lightspeed attacks multiple times. From Charon redirecting the 500km beam to the moon, and dodging multiple of Nataku laser beams. So, yea, Shinra is not capped at LS. And if we're being honest Natsu can't touch Shinra since he'll literally be hitting Natsu from different points in time within the battle
True shinra is not capped at light speed But come on man moon feat💀 The moon was very close to earth Plus not only that He definitely took more than 1 sec to hit that thing And about natsu being not able to hit shinra since shinra would hit him from different times set Remember time traveling via surpassing speed of light isn't really a fiction in general thing If you wanna apply the rule to shinra You should also apply the rule natsu being able to time travel by going faster than speed of light
Bro he was just talking about the real like physics part. He did literally say or we could go with the not using real life physics and then talk about his actual speed. Of course he's not capped at light. He's dodged Lightspeed attacks and he wasn't relative to the light speed attacks. He was completely easily dodging them, which obviously means he's not light speed at Max. He was just giving the two examples the first one of which no one should take because yeah he obviously isn't. It's just the way this series talks about. It makes it sound like he caps at light
@@doriankamanzi6874 yea. I noticed. It was when I got to the end that I understood. I was just commenting on the spur. Cuz, it felt like he was going to cap Shinra there Which would have been unfair
@@1922_kinda_girl Natsu was already reacting to attacks that travel through time in season 1 so Shinra needs more than that lil gimmick to beat Natsu. Shinrabanshoman makes it a debate but Natsu can still counter that by burning Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize their soul resonance.
Shinra still has to kill Natsu since Natsu isn't human and won't die just because of age plus he's taken and dealt hits that would at least let him survive Shinra
Btw... you did correct a lot of things. I was commenting as you mentioned the wrong things... MAJOR SPOILERS..... . . Other than that. Yea. You're right on most things. Shinra wins mor time than not, especially if you throw in SHINRABANSHOUMAN... which is just unfair. As he too can take Natsu's flames and turn it into a fish or something else. If we used applied real-world physics on Shinra, then Natsu may win. Since he'll be faster. But will he have the same A.P... I doubt that. Then there are many other things to consider. But a very good video regardless. I loved the editing. It was so good I watched till the ending. Did you do it yourself?
Definitely, if we played real world physics he would cap at light Natsu would win, but we can't count real life physics plus shinra has shown dodging other light speed attacks very casually, not even being relative to them. Completely speed blitzing them meaning he's obviously far faster than light. So yeah he just wins
@@doriankamanzi6874 Yea. Thanks for this. My original comment was based on the first half of the video... haha. Well. Yea. Shinra has a lot of light speed feats without the grace thingy
Power scaling for fairy tale. So the verse of fairy tale is busted. I mean busted busted. For instance, let me just pull up a statement from the manga that explains the existence of an infinite array of spatial dimensions. “Over the past thousand years, I’ve developed a transdimensional manipulation device. I used it to search for Marice throughout the infinite array of dimensions…Until, finally, a transmission from the mother computer…Gave me the coordinates of this world.” This proves the fact that an infinite amount of dimensions exists in fairy tale, which already makes the verse high hyperversal (yes, high 1-b). But this doesn’t end here for fairly tale, oh no it doesn’t. Basically, there is this “true void” called the space between time (SBT), which is a place where the concepts of time and space don’t apply. It is constantly trying to fix the concept of time. No one can exist or even live in this void, since not even the concepts of space resides in such a nothingness. So this would make the SBT dimensionless & it’s also conceptual, too. Which means it’s outerversal, and characters like Acnologia consumed this conceptual space, which makes Acnologia outerversal by proxy. And Natsu later on killed Acnologia, which would make Natsu scale to him (outerversal). Then we have Zeref who obtained infinite magic (fairy heart), and magic = power source in fairy tail, so that’s infinite power right there. Natsu could burn his time magic via his flames, which upscales Natsu even further. Zeref can control space & time, which lowballed, is 5d. But with context, it’s pretty clear he’s talking about the concept of space & time, since he merged the power of the space between time & fairy heart during his battle against Natsu to create the “neo eclipse”, which can reset time. We then know from the title of Selena that she’s a dragon that transcends dimensions. And coming from a logical perspective, this would be in context to the infinite array of dimensions, which would mean that Selena is high hyperversal. And people like Ignia was able to easily beat her. And Natsu > Ignia in strength. stop the downplay
Natsu's base heat by the time of the alverez war is almsot if not as hot as the sun shinra is getting vaporized. And even if you want to use the argument of shinra using time travel natsu's dragon senses will still kick in plus shinra technically can't kill natsu who can burn time and literally erase his soul and body like he did to zeref the only difference is that shinra isn't an immortal who has control over infinite mana energy , time, and space 😂😂😂😂😂.
I wish he did kind of. I don't know who I like more. I love them both as characters but he doesn't unless we play real life physics, which wouldn't make sense since he's dodged light speed attacks and wasn't relative to the meaning he is far faster than light shinra would just kick him back in the past and it would apply to the present or he could kick him in the present at a speed he couldn't even identify he could kidnap him and send him to space. He could kidnap him and send him to the past there'd be nothing he could do about it
None of these interpretations are valid. Natsu slams Shinrabanshoman too by burning Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize the soul resonance. Base Shinra is not a threat to Natsu and neither is Sho or Mari.
As far as I know, Natsu has never shown the ability to burn other people's Soul's (only his own). But even if he did. Shinra-banshōman is multiple layers of infinity faster than Natsu (since he doesn't abide by the laws of physics, and has total control of time) along with the fact that Shinra-banshōman could oneshot potentially Universal/Multiversal beings. As for Base Vs Base? Arthur's planet divider, and Shinra's moon feat would scale higher than any feat we've actually seen in Fairy Tail. With only the Dragon Gods & FH Zeref having similar statements. So I'd personally say the three interpretations in the video are all relatively fair ways of looking at it, but that's just my thoughts. Hope that helps, thanks for the comment.
@@TUCKALMIGHTY both magic and especially Dragon Slayer magic inherently function on souls and this is confirmed numerous times. Such as the entire guild being able to damage the souls summoned by Jose. For Dragon Slayer magic in particular it’s stated to function against souls all the way back in the battle of Fairy Tail then later on validated in Tartaros being confirmed that Acnologia’s dragon slayer magic was able to extract souls. There’s also the fact that magic spells just have souls themselves which is how Franmalth was able to absorb magic. As for the argument that Shinra outspeeds because of his time hax Natsu can just burn time too. Natsu’s feats against Fairy Heart Zeref are more impressive than Shinra’s feats against Haumea when you actually break them down, Shinra’s feats are just more narratively played up so it seems more impressive. Natsu hard counters tho. Arthur cutting the planet and Shinra kicking the moon don’t yield results anywhere close to the star creation feats of Ophichus. You could say Shinra turning the earth into a star compares to that but it would still be outstripped by the Celestial Spirit King creating constellations repeatedly like it’s nothing. All of the Spriggan 12 scale above all of that and Natsu can one shot Spriggans. When I say the interpretations aren’t valid I don’t mean that it makes no sense why someone could think those things, rather that they all lack critical points which are highly relevant to how Natsu vs Shinra would play out.
@shadowwarrior996 I think the big misunderstanding here, is what I mentioned at the start of this video. Most people simply don't agree on how Fairy Tail's many feats should be interpreted. For example? In the 100 Years Quest, Natsu needed to learn thought projection magic to hurt a spirit/soul/ghost. This directly contradicts the notion that Natsu could damage souls, but like most things in Fairy Tail, there's room for interpretation. Another example is Natsu "Burning Time". Some people say Natsu can burn time since it's written that way on the panel, while others say he can only burn magic like we saw many other times throughout the story. But because Natsu has literally never replicated this ability? We have no concrete evidence for one or the other. There's also almost no evidence that the celestial spirit king scales to constellations outside of the anime & even if he did, we know the full power of spirits can't be brought into the real world. Since spirits are only as powerful as the mage summoning them. This is why Lucy's spirits continue to grow stronger alongside her. This kind of logic can go on almost forever, for both characters. Natsu burning time might be slower than time travel, Shinra might be above a potentially Multiversal Adola, You could scale base forms for both off planetary feats (Like Arthur & The Phoenix) or you could use universal metas (like Sho freezing the universe, Zeref resetting it) So honestly? Trying to claim the interpretations in this video "lack critical points" to cover this topic, Is just silly to me. Because these characters simply don't have any other lines of scaling, that are more consistent than what was shown. As almost anything we can bring to the table, has some degree of contradiction. And while it's obviously fine if you disagree with my assessment, I don't think these alternate interpretations automatically become correct. But rather, just exist as more equally valid ways of seeing the matchup.
@@TUCKALMIGHTY the reason Natsu can’t effect Wraith initially despite the soul arguments I made is for the very simple reason that Dragon slayer versions of elements are qualitatively and quantitatively superior to regular elements. Wraith isn’t just a ghost he’s a ghost dragon slayer. As far as burning time goes he’s just never needed to in any other situation, it wouldn’t help him against any of his opponents in 100YQ. You can expect to see crazy feats like that around when 100YQ ends, that’s always when Mashima pulls out the absurd scaling in all of his series. He’s done in without fail every time in Rave Master, OG Fairy Tail, and Edens Zero. Evidence isn’t needed outside the anime, the Eclipse arc is a canon part of the story. This isn’t even a matter of interpretation it’s a matter of comprehension. The Eclipse arc was factually canonized. Natsu is able to perceive Zeref moving backwards in time so this is another time hax resistance that Natsu would be able to apply against Shinra. Ultimately I do agree that Natsu vs Shinra breaks down to micro debates and subtle points that aren’t considered enough. I just tend to fall on the side that Natsu comes out on top. I’ve been a Fairy Tail fan for a very long time and a Fire Force fan since chapter 0 so these are both series I deeply love.
@@Saiyan295He doesn't. He could kick him so hard back in time that the kick applies into the present or he could take him to the past. He could throw him into space all of this before Natsu can even react because unlike what people say, Natsu can't react to an attack that happens in stopped time. He can burn Time magic but he doesn't have instantaneous reaction speed. It's that time slows down. He can't do anything about it
WAIT! Before you go any further, if you enjoy these kind of videos. We're currently holding a massive poll on our last upload to decide a future matchup. Please feel free to check it out with the link here 👉th-cam.com/video/gYlaDx47i1g/w-d-xo.html
Also? For anyone reading this far, comment bellow if you'd like to see more Fairy Tail stuff while it's airing!
@TUCKALMIGHTY wait, so how hot are Natsu's flames?
@TUCKALMIGHTY and do his flames have a limit, or is it boundless?
@TUCKALMIGHTY Also, what about Natsu vs. Esconnor from seven deadly sins?
@ItsMe_-lo5zg
1.) most people theorize that base Natsu's flames are at least 200 Million Degrees Celsius, because he scales above magnetic confinement fusion.
2.) Some people argue that Natsu's flames can burn "concepts" such as time or space. But aside from that, Natsu doesn't have any boundless arguments. So I'd say he does have a limit (it's just a very debatable one)
3.) I believe Natsu would beat Escanor, since Sunshine is a fire based power. If Natsu ate it? He would likely just become "The One" and beat Escanor. At least IMO.
Hope that answers your questions, thanks for the comments!
@@TUCKALMIGHTY thank you! Have a good day!
Natsu casually eating the opponents flames.
"Thanks for the meal, but umm yeah, gg."
Shinra will beat the sh*t out of natsu
@James-oj1vs he burned time. Also, I would like to mention that natsu has high battle adaptability and he's very creative. If he wanted to, he could cast an aura of flame around his body, so even if he's not fast enough, Shinra would still be taking damage or probably won't be able to get close. It's also shown time and time again that natsu has incredible durability.
@@ItsMe_-lo5zg hes getting blitz before he realize how fast shinra is
@NicoThefourth dude, that guy stands no chance.
@@ItsMe_-lo5zgJust to correct one misconception. Natsu burns time magic, not time itself. Other than that I agree
There is another, if something in that fight forces him to turn into E.N.D. In anime there's a character that has an ability that stops time, but natsu as E.N.D was able to move regardless.
@@asmodeus8621 he burn it that's why
Natsu wins if shinta don't use banshoman
@@James-oj1vs Natsu beats Shinrabanshoman too
@@Shadowwarrior996 keep dreaming
@@Shadowwarrior996 u just embarrassed urself
@@James-oj1vs Natsu burns Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize their soul resonance. Without Shinrabanshoman none of the 3 are a threat to Natsu. Easy dub.
Bansho wins, but shinra loses. Even if we interpret Shinra to be faster than light, Natsu has both eaten other forms of magic, and moved through stopped time. He could quite literally eat shinra's particals as Shinra is trying to kick him back in time, which would essentially erase part of shinra from existance. Edit - for those of you who only read this comment and not anything else attatched to it, maybe read the other replies before repeating what other people have already said.
He moved through stop time because he burned stop time. He didn't move through. Stop time with pure speed. People need to get that. He did not move in time because of his speed. He burned the time magic that doesn't count as a speed feat
And he wouldn't be able to eat seamless particles because they wouldn't be made of fire. They're made of him or something else which in the end doesn't matter because he wouldn't be able to react in time. He would kick him back in the past and the kick would apply to the present or he could take him and kidnap him to the past and leave him being quite literally the opposite of what happened to Natsu when he was a child He just doesn't have the reaction time and the kick would work because it's his foot not fire
Bro Natsu can burn magic itself, he doesn’t move with sheer speed
@@doriankamanzi6874 Dude, Natsu's speed feats don't come from burning time, but dodging light-speed attacks
@@doriankamanzi6874natsu doesnt only eat fire
Im all for team natsu 🔥🔥
Not going to lie one reason why I love fire abilities so much it’s because of natsu
Same, but shinra is strong too so this will be fun
The whole time watching fire force i was thinking about natsu vs Shinra and how they’d be good friends lol
This video has some of the best editing I've ever seen
"Devils by birth and heroes by choice" such a tuff line
Banshoman: by the way, you are dead now
That's cheating cause it's not his power
@sivuyilepama7130 true, he'd need sho and his mom
Well.. its not technically shinra. Its a combination of him, sho, and his mom, so its like saying gogeta (the fusion of goku and vegeta) is just goku. But its not
@whispertangle4136 not only did I already say this on a comment attached to this one, I was just making a joke. I understand that banshoman can't be achieved without soul resonance
@@np3plays614 ok, sorry
also mashima has stated that the Key of the starry skies and the eclipse spirits arc are canon to both the manga and the anime, even though the arcs are anime exclusives
Some interpretations that werent mentioned: natsus mftl might be as consistent as his irrelevant. Anchologia was able to move in a void without time (which is a better form of speed than shirnas) but natsu doesn't scale to that anchologia (yet) so that's up on the air but still we have natsu move through stopped time with his flames burning time, whether you want to consider it haxs or immeasurable speed it's up to you. Then there is zeref erasing the universe which would be low multiversal because of there being 3 infinite sized realms in the ft world. Then there is ultear and her magic being multi+ ridiculously enough and he should scale above her for several reasons. Now for the non universal stuff (since this is normal shirna and not banshoman who is also in the universal ranges) we've got Lucy throwing 88 stars at her opponent. But outside of that I think that's all the interpretations that make sense to me
While I don't really agree with the Ultear arguments, as I've mentioned in the past.
Pretty much everything else you mention here, is another valid way of looking at things.
The reason I didn't bring some of it up, is because of redundancy. Since while you can argue that Zeref is Uni+/Low Multi because of Neo Eclipse.
You could also argue that Base Shinra is Uni+/Low Multi due to scaling off Adola or Sho freezing the universe.
And while Natsu has "burned time" in the past.
Because we've only ever seen him do it against Zeref's magic, and because time hax via Neo Eclipse was implied to still be a threat to Natsu.
I just decided to ignore any infinite speed Natsu arguments. Since I didn't want to open the can of worms- about what he actually "burns" in that scene.
But anyways, solid breakdown! And thanks for the comment.
@@TUCKALMIGHTY no problem, I mostly mentioned them for others interested, it's extremely unreasonable to expect a none 3 hour long video to go through every single way you can scale natsu and fairy tail in general, I havent read fire force so I have no idea how you'd get adola to low multi (not asking for spoilers just saying why I didn't mention it myself)
@lore766 Yeah, Fairy Tail definitely has a lot of conflicting metas, so It's definitely worth mentioning them!
As for Low-Multi Adola, without spoiling too much, Adola is basically described as a parallel universe to ours (which on it's own can vary, from 3D, to Infinite 3D, to 4D depending on who you ask)
But some people argue that because Adola is stated to encompass all human concepts(such as dimensionality) and is occasionally portrayed as a higher dimension itself.
We should treat it, as a baseline 4D or 5D structure no different than a typical a multiverse.
I personally have mixed feelings on that interpretation. But if you're just curious about Low-Multi Adola, That's pretty much where it comes from.
I would disagree with acnologia, if we are talking about the space between time, why? The reason is that the speed where he is moving isnt outside the time axis, but he is unnafected of the changes in the time affecting him or his surroundings, that wouldnt qualify as a irrelevant or infinite speed but the quality of atemporal character for the definition of not being able to be affected by changes in time around him (in other words keeping his own time unnafected ) , not in the definition of trascending or controling time entirely (since atemporal characters cover a spectrum of characteristics), i would argue shinra (not talking about shinrabanshoman, Who can escape time by moving) also doesnt have it, because he isnt moving outside of time, but the rules of his own world changes while something is moving at ls (relativistic law of physics apply in fire force) and the use of adolla corroborate this, since the adolla flame changes the property of the World around the user, therefore this would qualify as a hax or an ability more than a speed meta, outside of fire force and the law of relativity, shinra would be a ftl character using his rapid or his adolla in comparison to characters like rimuru, flash, and alphamon (from digimon) who are 3 different type of escaping the time axis even without relying abilities
@@lore766 since when did erasing a universe equal to the whole multiverse
Next: Why Kaneki vs Alex Mercer isnt close
So by anime logic shinra loses but by actual science he wins
Yeah. IMO that’s a pretty fair way of describing the two most likely outcomes.
Nah i swear natsu would go full END and react to whatever shinra or bansho does, cuz like he could move in stopped time when he was END (or he will simply demolish shinra by raw will power and strength )
This isn’t related to the video at all, but I wanted to personally scale Shinra based off research I did cuz many people will say he’s outer while others will say he’s
planetary even though I don’t thinkeither seems to be the case and let me explain.
Overall: 5D (Multiversal) and has immeasurable speed.
I’ll talk about immeasurable speed first cuz it’s the shortest and easiest for me to explain. According to vsbattles fandom and I quote: “Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed.” At the end of the manga, Shinra talks about how he traveled to the past so many times when he was recreating civilization on earth because of some mistakes he made in the process thus showing that he does have immeasurable speed since he’s able to manipulate time as a predetermined construct allowing him to reverse/fast forward timelines casually and Tuck here did a great job explaining even further.
Now for the reason why I believe he’s 5D. First let’s make it clear that Shinra banshoman is NOT planetary. The fire force wiki states: “Through the manipulation of Adolla, Shinrabanshō-man can manipulate, reshape, and warp reality by manipulate fire, heat, energy and matter in order to create Life and reshape the world. This is not limited to affecting himself as others managed but the ability to manipulate the entire universe, instead of separate objects or beings.” And if that’s not enough, Shinra was able to manipulate the concept of death and google states that death is an inevitable process of the universe. Since death is considered one of the universal truths, that automatically means that manipulating the concept of death is another universal feature. Keep in mind that Shinra can also manipulate life, space, etc and not just death making him more powerful than what others who call him planetary think. In addition, since Adolla is the subconscious of the human mind, it represents concepts such as mathematics, dimensionality, and human law/ideologies such as life, death, time, space, law, etc. That also includes the concept and ideology of heaven and hell. Many people today when talking from a tiering system point of view believe that heaven and hell are considered to be 4th dimensional. Adolla or the Evangelist itself is above all of these things that I mentioned including heaven and hell, thus logically meaning that Adolla is above 4D and at least 5D. Shinra casually scales above the Evangelist since he whoops Adolla’s ass at its prime like child’s play. According to verse and dimensions fandom it says “A simple conception of a multiverse is 5-Dimensional space, with several four dimensional universe-"lines" arranged in a stack in a 5 dimensional space.” This is why I believe Shinra Banshoman is at a multiversal level because although he hasn’t shown any Multiversal feats, the research shown here tells that Shinra does have the capability to be a multiversal threat.
I don’t think he’s outeversal because like the manga says, Adolla is the embodiment of HUMANITY’S subconscious thus already limiting how far Shinra Banshoman can go because humans are limited in knowledge and what we can understand/comprehend the general idea of conceptuality but at the same time he’s def not planetary based off the info I just explained.
So once again to recap:
-5D (Multiversal)
-Immeasurable speed
Conclusion: Natsu and Shinra are both shonen goats and would love to see death battle animate this fight if they can🐐🐐
Banshoman - multiversal with immeasurable speed. Base - planetary with immeasurable speed.
@@1922_kinda_girl Agreed
Shinra obliterates if he’s in his strongest form but if this present Shinra (aka anime Version) then he’s getting cooked simple as that
Oh anime hell ye anime looses If this is manga for both, shinra never wins everything base form or in shinrabasho
Anime Shinra beats him
@@1922_kinda_girl no he doesn’t there around the same speed in anime and nastu legit eats fire and turns into into his own power and the more powerful the fire the stronger he gets. Also Manga shinra just obliterates, diverse no questions asked
@@MasonRiders Sho’s severed universe is an ability that allows him to use his adolla burst connection and manipulate and seal the heat of the expansion of the universe, which allows him to form his own universe around himself a uni feat, which as a result stops the normal expansion rate of the normal universe and stops time as well, and while still being able to move freely. With this in mind it’s been shown in the anime many times that his body has been able to endure severed universe, which has also been compared the same amount of energy as the Big Bang,which would constitute this as a Universal+ Dura Feat. Further more Shinra is able to damage Sho multiple times in the fight which would give Shinra uni ap. This would scale him above Natsu.
@@1922_kinda_girl that’s the adolla burst buds. We’re talking about their own power, not amped.
A cool matchup idea could be Lucy (Elden Lied) vs Sukuna (Jujutsu Kaisen). Battle of the invisible slashes.
Spongebob chair vs lighting McQueen crocs
My guy natsu killed a planet size dragon in 100yq 💀
Finally someone uses logic and not fake light speed shit. But to be fair Shinra is not speed blitzing him of the bat and Natsu getting and adolalink is likely as Shinra normal flames are adola flames and th other two are a little unlike both situations played out before due to him part being a demon and dragon so interpretation 3 is mostly the case
Shinra literally own wins if he turns Banshoman which he can’t since he needs his mom and brother to do that
Please do kumagawa misogi vs Yogiri Takatou.
@TUCKALMIGHTY
my favourite old gen vs my favourite new gen🔥🔥
there's also the fact that Natsu plays around with the person he's fighting to get an idea of HOW the fight (see GMG fight against Sting and Rogue). And he's too hardheaded to just die. Plus the fact he is TECHNICALLY a living zombie.
You should do natsu vs Johnny Storm
Adolla burst is enough tbh. Also i think the eating flames arguement is overused. There are examples of natsu being in positions he cant consume flames and other elements hes been able to eat. Lets not act like eating flames is omnidirectional or something. But yeah, adolla burst should win this, literally the power of the collective unconscious.
@@CrucialMutual Natsu can react to attacks that travel through time so Shinra needs more than that lil gimmick.
Natsu can consume fire from any direction. If he’s against Shinra using his ignition abilities then Natsu really isn’t even threatened by Shinra. He’d need to keep his guard up cus of Shinra’s speed but that’s really about it.
Shinrabanshoman handles much better but Natsu can still win by burning Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize the soul resonance.
You forgot how time travel creates new timelines in fairytail so the nastu Shinra kills might nit be the nastu he started the fight against
Deadass if you doing this, you might as well do Shiki from Eden zero vs Death the kid from soul eater
I wanna preface this with I haven’t finished reading fire force but i think I know the main bullet point feats at the end of series) I feel like this has to be revisited with 100 year quest Natsu vs bansho(I know it’s a resonance but it’s a cool comparison lol)
Even in the Alvarez arc Natsu was moving in time stop effortlessly(although it was END and idk if it’s bc of the curse/magic matchups)
But he also was able to beat fairy heart zeref by apparently “burning through his magic over time and space”
Basically it seems like at this point Natsu is burning through concepts like said power or immortality
Time travel via going faster than light is explicitly NOT immeasurable speed
Here is the commonly accepted definition for immeasurable speed:
“Immeasurable Speed: (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied.)”
So? If the normal speed formula is distance divided by time (Miles Per Hour, Kilometers Per Hour, etc.) But Shinra can arrive infinity distance, in negative time.
Then he is explicitly outside the scopes of speed, making him, by definition. Unable to be measured by the formula.
We also know that Shinra can fight/operate at those speeds. Since we see him talk & react with other people inside the space between time.
Hope that helps, thanks for the comment.
@@TUCKALMIGHTY its fiction
Please make Orochimaru ( NARUTO ) vs Alucard ( HELLSING ULTIMATE )
it's pretty interesting since they have similarities
Wait ain’t natsu like burned time tell me if that happend or not I forget both are really cool tho 🔥🔥🔥
Sukuna vs The Union (Jujutsu Kaisen vs Undead Unluck
Dont forget when Natsu was able to BURN TIME when fighting Zeref.
That doesn't apply to shinra who is conceptional faster than natural and can manipulate causality
@@TheWildCard2k If he can time travel Natsu can just burn the time he wants to travel i guess.
@@eraizon8067nastu didn’t burn actual time
@@aerlgo3229 Yes he did, he burned the concept of time
@@eraizon8067 he burned time magic not actual time
Nice video!
Can you make TF2 vs hazbin hotel 💀💀💀
Shinra banshoman solos fairytale universe. No questions about it. I dont understand why he didnt even mention him.
shinra is like irrelevant speed whatever that means , he's too fast for natsu and not to mention bro a god eos.
NGL unless you using shinra bansho shinra loses
Shinrabanshoman still loses
@@Shadowwarrior996Nah
Facts. Shinra doesn’t stand a chance but Banshoman is broken
@@samuraixronin4630Yeah nah he still loses
@@samuraixronin4630 yes. Fairy Heart Zeref is stronger than Shinrabanshoman.
Natsu would burn Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls making their Soul Resonance fail and forcing them all apart into their base forms. At that point it’s a stomp.
Screw natsu vs shinra I want tsuna vs natsu
Tsuna isn’t spoken of enough, honestly
Love them both
i never count Banshoman unless someone is specifically stating its banshoman shinra and not just shinra shinra, since remember, banshoman is a fusion, therefore in a 1v1 battle he wouldnt have access to banshoman
I agree. Calling Shinra the most broken character in fiction solely because of Banshōman is always annoying.
@@mono_akumu if you are comparing Death the Kid to someone for a vs debate do you include Liz and Patty or do you only strictly go off feats for Kid alone?
@@Shadowwarrior996 i havent seen soul eater, so id just say just Death the Kid withought the other two
@@Shadowwarrior996 Well the difference is Shinra is a character with his own power and Kid is a character who consistently uses Liz and Patty in his fights unless he explicitly chooses not to. They are his weapons, as Hal, John and Kyle have the Green Lantern rings as theirs, or how Asta can unite with the devil in his grimoire for a power boost because they are intrinsically linked. You wouldn't put Goku against Superman and say: "WeLl GoGeTa," because that requires another completely seperate character.
If shinra is making himself go so fast he goes into the past, he is affecting himself, rather than the entire universe, it’s like a needle going through a quilt/cloth etc, to even if what you guys are saying, “Natsu can negate the status effect” for one reason or the other, he himself has to have the same, or greater abilities than shinra in order to be able to match him, so if he can’t do that, all this “fire eating” logic is essentially useless
A needle going through a quilt/cloth would tear a hole in said quilt/cloth. That's why Shinra is effectively manipulating the universe.
As for the fire eating stuff? We know that Adola Links can grant Adola Graces. We know fire is bonded with Natsu once he eats it. And we know that other Gen 4 pyros could fight Shinra.
So even though it's not the most likely scenario. If Natsu could eat Shinra's flames, that sort of PIS is honestly pretty likely to occur for both characters IMO.
I guess it really depends on if Shinra goes all out at first or not. If he doesn't, Natsu would win, but if he does, he would win. But besides all that really good video 👍.
Yooo
Make Lucius vs Isshiki
can u do wahlberg vs netero
In all honestly i say let this cook more natsu story is not finished yet since 100 year quest manga is still going on and its getting its anime adaptation soon so natsu could very well get some powers to fuck with shinra real life physics
@TUCKALMIGHTY I WANT YOU TO DO A MAHORAGA VS NEXT,YOU CAN JUST PICK WHICH ANIME CHARACTER YOU WANNA DO WITH HIM OR SMTH!!!!
Shinra without a doubt he can just make it so that natsu has no fire not to mention he's way faster and way more powerful than natsu has ever shown
How he's faster ? Natsu been ftl Way before shinra LMFOA
@@kzglo9403 natsu barley sub light
@@Keith_Norman Natsu was FTL at the beginning of the series, furthermore he even reacted to attacks that travel through time so even Shinra’s grace won’t save him.
Shinra can’t take away control of Natsu’s fire he proved to have sole control of his powers also near the beginning of the series.
Natsu has better strength and speed feats than Shinra.
@@Shadowwarrior996 he was not FTL at the beginning of the series and that traveling through time thing has a hax or Natsu magic was stronger than hers so no
@@Keith_Norman Natsu in chapter 2 blitzed Krov who is light speed. So yes he is FTL at the beginning of the series.
Natsu wasn’t stronger than Ultear at the time she was literally using less than half her power and she said this outright after the fight. Natsu was simply fast enough to react to her attacks so Shinra needs more than that lil gimmick to beat the real goat of fire users. Shinrabanshoman makes it close and a good debate but Natsu can still win by burning Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize their soul resonance.
Shinrabanshōman....... thats all i have to say
Shinrabanshōman created the Soul Eater Verse (sorta? he altered his own universe by getting rid of the concept of the Fear Of Death, plus he defeated a Universal level threat)
@@SCP-CBTWell yeah but technically it's not Shinra alone
@@phantom9831 true, but what i do for these vs things, is take the strongest forms for ALL participants. but yes, i agree, it isnt even just shinra (its him, his brother, and his mother i think)
@@SCP-CBT mmh...true
First of all you didn't include the fact that Natsu is moving at immeasurable speed since FH Zeref transcends the concept of space-time and fully take control over it, no matter how much you twist those light speed move it's still on light speed scale it doesn't surpasses that, it doesn't even come close to infinite speed which is instantaneous and inaccessible speed which is to be applied on someone who can casually walk in a time stop. Second Sho is only slowing down the universe expansion causing the flow of time to slow down which is similar to time stop, Dimaria and Base Zeref time stop would fodderized Shinra even in his Banshoman form since their magic is much superior to Chronos which is the God of Time
Shinra can stop time with his speed.
Sho steals the expansion of the universe and creates his own universe which 3 times faster than ours, stopping time.
@@jaiy1321 The fire force speed of light theory follows the same theory as ours where by moving faster than light one can travel through time, but this also limit Shinra speed to doesn't exist beyond FTL, so anyone beyond FTL can easily speed blitz him.
Sho only slows down the expansion of the universe by cooling it down, during so it appears that time stops, but this also debunks the universe since it's still expanding it only means that it's not even infinite, unlike FT Cosmology who's stated by Ultear to have an infinite universe, parallel universe and mathematical dimensions. Cosmology alone>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fire Force and soul eater
@lostsignature9535 No, ftl is Shinra's requirement, his speed is still immeasurable. Even if you are mftl, you won't even perceive him since he disappears.
It doesn't debunk anything, the Fire Force universe has been stated to be infinite. He stills the heat of the universe and create his own universe. Since the universe has no heat, time stops, not slows down, actually stop, stated by the narrator, Sho, and Licht as well as Haumea. His universe is 3 times faster than the other universe.
Adolla contains an infinite number of dimensions as well as the concept of mathematics
@@jaiy1321 Lol adolla is only a collection of human ideation and how they view the universe it doesn't change the fact that human is only 3D and they view the universe as 4D, like I said Fire Force follows the same logic and theory in real life, Shinra never once shows that he transcends the concept of space-time he's only manipulating it which you can argue his Hax being 4D since he created soul eater verse, but his DC is only Large Planetary - Dwarf Star. Do you even know how immeasurable speed works? That BS got debunked a long time ago only a few fire force fanboys defend it since it lacks context and is too debunkable
@@jaiy1321 Fire Force universe is still expanding it doesn't change infinity yet, unlike FT universe who's already infinite around 400 years ago before the first episode
Natsu claps shinra until bansho shinra steps up, natsu is immune to any type of fire and can eat it to power himself up and he also can burn time itself.
He can burn time magic. Not time itself (tho it won't change the result of the fight(
@@phantom9831 Zeref wasn’t using time magic so yes Natsu burned “time itself” exactly as Zeref stated.
i shall never surrender kagami kazuya vs tsunayoshi sawada
I actually think natsu should be able to hit shinra even with the lightspeed teleportation thing he got. Natsu has dragon slayer senses. He should just be able to smell him before he reappears and adapt to how he’s fighting. Now natsu has no way of moving as fast as shinra unless he eats his flames. But natsu can also move at lightspeeds and has been since tower of heaven. natsu was also able to move in stopped time we seen it in the final season against Dimaria So if natsu could adapt mid fight before shinra pulls out all them hax. Then i can see him beating shinra but its all interpretation like you said 🤷🏾♂️
What if the main character from re:monster vs the goblin slayer?
i have a funny video idea auto from walle vs glados
I really liked how you explain to this. You did it perfectly and yeah shinra Simply Just wins both base form and obviously shinrabansho He would do exactly as he said he could kick him in the pass and the past tick would happen in the present or he could just kick him in the present at speeds. He can't react. That's just true. He simply can't and to anyone who says oh Natsu can move and stop time. He burned the time magic that wasn't a speed feat And of course we can't really count for Natsu getting his own adola burst since That could be literally anything and we have no way to say what it will be, so that's not a valid arguement
Can't say he burned stopped time against the timestop girl, he simply just moved and blitzed her while time was stopped. It's nit like he forced time to unfreeze, he just moved during it
Kicking natsu to the past won't work cus when shinra will try to do that natsu dragon sense will kick in and natsu's flame will vaporise shinra
@@Ploty159vaporise what he can't react to .do y'all think at all
@@emmanueladekunle3088 Natsus dragon sense is gonna kick in when shinra will try to do something dangerous and yes I think
How is Fire Force as plot contrived as FT?
Fanservice, sure. Hiro Mashima even suggested putting Tamaki in that main squad.
But plot contrived? Lol
Natsu solo because fire does not even affect Him
And everybody who y’all think winning goku or kaiju no.8
say that again but slower
Take a hour to think
I'm not sure if this is like a power creep for kaiju no.8 Cuz I'm avoiding the manga Or any spoilers. But I highly doubt that he reaches Goku levels cuz I would have seen him somewhere in some video as one of those stronger anime that this is a joke
Natsu is a demon dragon hybrid though and not human
natsu can eat fire but shinra would blitz him before he can
@@6thHeavenOfDesire Natsu can react to attacks that travel through time so Shinra needs more than that lil gimmick
How can Shinra banshoman use recreating rielity to win against someone who has been dyfing it since season one
Shinra-banshōman created gods with control over life an death, he was capable of ignoring the laws of physics, he could rewind time infinitely to recreate a perfect universe, he was immune to (debatably) conceptual erasure, and he could easily defeat characters capable of manipulating the entire universe.
Those are the pretty much the usual reasons why Shinra-banshōman is hyped up so much. Hope that helps, thanks for the comment!
Don’t hate me ofc goku wins I was just giving him a damn video idea
what if natsu just burnt time then what ? how can shinra travl back when time itself is being burnt also natsu can move in stopped time vs acnologia so yeah natsu can never out speed shinra but natsu can counter shinra when shinra re appears as both of their reaction speed is instantanious .
It's not the same. When he burned time he was burning Time magic that was stopping time around him. In this case, shinra isn't stopping time. He's just moving so fast. Time isn't moving so he can't burn that because it isn't affecting him in a way he can burn it. It's literally just he's so fast. Time isn't moving. You understand
And to the react when he reappears, he would reappear with his foot in natsu's face. He can't react if his foot's already touching his face sending him flying across the sky
@@doriankamanzi6874 he can considering it takes him 0 sec to react. think of natsu have his hands every where his body and no where at the same time thats what instantanious means . being able to move with no time being somewhere and not being there at once.
think of people who move at 0 time to be like shrodingeers cat where they are in a state of defending attacking reaction relaxing countering all at once. u cant measure his movement speed .
@@doriankamanzi6874 zeref magic allows him to control time not make time so natsu is burning time itself not magic . not really for shinra time isnt moving for everyone else it is still moving if natsu can remove time at a specfic area shinra cant accelarate to light speed and beyond lightspeed like he usally does .
@@techgeek123-em7uf zerfes Power was to control time right and how he was using that to affect time was he was using his mag the mag that was freezing time so time flowed again he wasn't burning time You burn the magic that is stopping time then what is there left? There is time which can now flow again. He was burning that said magic. That's what he's been doing throughout the series. Right after that he proceeds to keep burning magic, but even if we say he Burns time itself, that won't change anything because he would still be able to kick him at that same said speed even if the time in that area is gone because he'd still be moving at a speed of which he can't react to
Hmmm shinra might speed blitz natsu and yeah natsu eat fire but shinra does shoot fire his feet are covered in it so whats natsu gonna do bite his foot which again he cant keep up but lets say he could and ate the fire off shinras feet (freaky) shinra would still be moving at mach speed it ain't like he freeze in time if his fire go out in the middle of him moving so yh shinra wins
Simple explanation
Shinra too fast and if natsu eat his fire while shinra attacking thats still a foot hitting natsu at mach speed just without the fire on it
Who else is on team Shinra
Natsu vs. Esconnor from seven deadly sins.
@@ItsMe_-lo5zg Natsu is way out of Escanor’s league
tbh ion know howd this turn out cuz shinra is stronger than goku bu flames won't work on natsu
Nah. You were 100% wrong on the Shinra is capped at Light Speed. I wish we could send VM I would explain... But here's a littlle way to prove you are wrong... Shinra travelled from earth to the moon to push the falling moon back into orbit in less than 1 second. without using the lightspeed stuff. Just his pure base speed. Meaning his base is not capped at light speed
Plus, what it says isn't that he is capped at light speed. But rather, "by going beyond the speed of light, he is able to travel through time/manipulate time". Key word "BEYOND" Which means he isn't capped at LS
Also. I n season 2 of Fire Force Shinra dodged lightspeed attacks multiple times. From Charon redirecting the 500km beam to the moon, and dodging multiple of Nataku laser beams.
So, yea, Shinra is not capped at LS.
And if we're being honest Natsu can't touch Shinra since he'll literally be hitting Natsu from different points in time within the battle
True shinra is not capped at light speed
But come on man moon feat💀
The moon was very close to earth
Plus not only that
He definitely took more than 1 sec
to hit that thing
And about natsu being not able to hit shinra since shinra would hit him from different times set
Remember time traveling via surpassing speed of light isn't really a fiction in general thing
If you wanna apply the rule to shinra
You should also apply the rule natsu being able to time travel by going faster than speed of light
Bro he was just talking about the real like physics part. He did literally say or we could go with the not using real life physics and then talk about his actual speed. Of course he's not capped at light. He's dodged Lightspeed attacks and he wasn't relative to the light speed attacks. He was completely easily dodging them, which obviously means he's not light speed at Max. He was just giving the two examples the first one of which no one should take because yeah he obviously isn't. It's just the way this series talks about. It makes it sound like he caps at light
@Skkia I hope you know that the timein anime or fiction does not flow the same as ours
@@doriankamanzi6874 yea. I noticed. It was when I got to the end that I understood. I was just commenting on the spur. Cuz, it felt like he was going to cap Shinra there
Which would have been unfair
@@Lawlessweeb_San ah I see makes sense got a little to jumpy with it
Base Shinra slams, he was immeasurable in s1.
Cry
@@juliusdemissie9820 npc?
@@1922_kinda_girl Natsu was already reacting to attacks that travel through time in season 1 so Shinra needs more than that lil gimmick to beat Natsu.
Shinrabanshoman makes it a debate but Natsu can still counter that by burning Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize their soul resonance.
Shinra is dog walking natsu. Natsu doesn’t even come close to Shinra banshoman where his hax alone can rewrite natsu out of existence
Natsu’s abilities easily counter Shinrabanshoman. He just burns Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls so their soul resonance fails
Didn’t Shinra become god or something?
Normal shinra loses but banshoman wins
Isen't Shinra at his strongest..
a literal god?
Shinra still has to kill Natsu since Natsu isn't human and won't die just because of age plus he's taken and dealt hits that would at least let him survive Shinra
Plus Natsu has pulled his own bs when it comes to time powers
Natsu can react to time travel
Ultear sends objects from diff timelines into one timeline
Ultear's technique doesn't send objects backwards in time, she just creates attacks in the present timeline (from what I understand)
@TUCKALMIGHTY she creates/sees or manuplates timelines with the orbs .
She can send a attack from a diff timeline into the current timeline
@@TUCKALMIGHTY I have the japanese kanji
@@TUCKALMIGHTY Ultear sends her crystal balls into the future and Natsu can react to that all the way back in the Galuna Island arc
Nastu would get slam but if lucy was there then nastu would win there aint no Debate (btw❤🎉
Cann you do goku vs kaiju no.8
Goku as a 13 year old destroys the verse, What kind of question is this? 😭
@@JamisonBembridge bro… how much anime do you watch to ask a question like this?
You can't be serious....
Btw... you did correct a lot of things. I was commenting as you mentioned the wrong things...
MAJOR SPOILERS.....
.
.
Other than that. Yea. You're right on most things. Shinra wins mor time than not, especially if you throw in SHINRABANSHOUMAN... which is just unfair. As he too can take Natsu's flames and turn it into a fish or something else.
If we used applied real-world physics on Shinra, then Natsu may win. Since he'll be faster. But will he have the same A.P... I doubt that.
Then there are many other things to consider. But a very good video regardless.
I loved the editing. It was so good I watched till the ending. Did you do it yourself?
Definitely, if we played real world physics he would cap at light Natsu would win, but we can't count real life physics plus shinra has shown dodging other light speed attacks very casually, not even being relative to them. Completely speed blitzing them meaning he's obviously far faster than light. So yeah he just wins
@@doriankamanzi6874 Yea.
Thanks for this.
My original comment was based on the first half of the video... haha.
Well. Yea. Shinra has a lot of light speed feats without the grace thingy
Shinkansen bojoman solos the verse though
are you kidding? shinra wins
Power scaling for fairy tale.
So the verse of fairy tale is busted. I mean busted busted. For instance, let me just pull up a statement from the manga that explains the existence of an infinite array of spatial dimensions. “Over the past thousand years, I’ve developed a transdimensional manipulation device. I used it to search for Marice throughout the infinite array of dimensions…Until, finally, a transmission from the mother computer…Gave me the coordinates of this world.”
This proves the fact that an infinite amount of dimensions exists in fairy tale, which already makes the verse high hyperversal (yes, high 1-b). But this doesn’t end here for fairly tale, oh no it doesn’t.
Basically, there is this “true void” called the space between time (SBT), which is a place where the concepts of time and space don’t apply. It is constantly trying to fix the concept of time. No one can exist or even live in this void, since not even the concepts of space resides in such a nothingness. So this would make the SBT dimensionless & it’s also conceptual, too. Which means it’s outerversal, and characters like Acnologia consumed this conceptual space, which makes Acnologia outerversal by proxy.
And Natsu later on killed Acnologia, which would make Natsu scale to him (outerversal).
Then we have Zeref who obtained infinite magic (fairy heart), and magic = power source in fairy tail, so that’s infinite power right there. Natsu could burn his time magic via his flames, which upscales Natsu even further. Zeref can control space & time, which lowballed, is 5d. But with context, it’s pretty clear he’s talking about the concept of space & time, since he merged the power of the space between time & fairy heart during his battle against Natsu to create the “neo eclipse”, which can reset time.
We then know from the title of Selena that she’s a dragon that transcends dimensions. And coming from a logical perspective, this would be in context to the infinite array of dimensions, which would mean that Selena is high hyperversal. And people like Ignia was able to easily beat her. And Natsu > Ignia in strength.
stop the downplay
So natsu wins this
Natsu's base heat by the time of the alverez war is almsot if not as hot as the sun shinra is getting vaporized.
And even if you want to use the argument of shinra using time travel natsu's dragon senses will still kick in plus shinra technically can't kill natsu who can burn time and literally erase his soul and body like he did to zeref the only difference is that shinra isn't an immortal who has control over infinite mana energy , time, and space 😂😂😂😂😂.
You know the flames of adolla are as hot as the sun right?💀
Finally fax
@@chakrafuji458 and natsu will just eat it
Since it's at a temperature similar to his flames
Natsu doesn't burn time, only time magic tho
Natsu sweep🙏🙏
I wish he did kind of. I don't know who I like more. I love them both as characters but he doesn't unless we play real life physics, which wouldn't make sense since he's dodged light speed attacks and wasn't relative to the meaning he is far faster than light shinra would just kick him back in the past and it would apply to the present or he could kick him in the present at a speed he couldn't even identify he could kidnap him and send him to space. He could kidnap him and send him to the past there'd be nothing he could do about it
None of these interpretations are valid. Natsu slams Shinrabanshoman too by burning Shinra, Sho, and Mari’s souls to destabilize the soul resonance. Base Shinra is not a threat to Natsu and neither is Sho or Mari.
As far as I know, Natsu has never shown the ability to burn other people's Soul's (only his own). But even if he did. Shinra-banshōman is multiple layers of infinity faster than Natsu (since he doesn't abide by the laws of physics, and has total control of time) along with the fact that Shinra-banshōman could oneshot potentially Universal/Multiversal beings.
As for Base Vs Base? Arthur's planet divider, and Shinra's moon feat would scale higher than any feat we've actually seen in Fairy Tail. With only the Dragon Gods & FH Zeref having similar statements.
So I'd personally say the three interpretations in the video are all relatively fair ways of looking at it, but that's just my thoughts.
Hope that helps, thanks for the comment.
@@TUCKALMIGHTY both magic and especially Dragon Slayer magic inherently function on souls and this is confirmed numerous times. Such as the entire guild being able to damage the souls summoned by Jose. For Dragon Slayer magic in particular it’s stated to function against souls all the way back in the battle of Fairy Tail then later on validated in Tartaros being confirmed that Acnologia’s dragon slayer magic was able to extract souls. There’s also the fact that magic spells just have souls themselves which is how Franmalth was able to absorb magic. As for the argument that Shinra outspeeds because of his time hax Natsu can just burn time too. Natsu’s feats against Fairy Heart Zeref are more impressive than Shinra’s feats against Haumea when you actually break them down, Shinra’s feats are just more narratively played up so it seems more impressive. Natsu hard counters tho.
Arthur cutting the planet and Shinra kicking the moon don’t yield results anywhere close to the star creation feats of Ophichus. You could say Shinra turning the earth into a star compares to that but it would still be outstripped by the Celestial Spirit King creating constellations repeatedly like it’s nothing. All of the Spriggan 12 scale above all of that and Natsu can one shot Spriggans.
When I say the interpretations aren’t valid I don’t mean that it makes no sense why someone could think those things, rather that they all lack critical points which are highly relevant to how Natsu vs Shinra would play out.
@shadowwarrior996 I think the big misunderstanding here, is what I mentioned at the start of this video. Most people simply don't agree on how Fairy Tail's many feats should be interpreted.
For example? In the 100 Years Quest, Natsu needed to learn thought projection magic to hurt a spirit/soul/ghost. This directly contradicts the notion that Natsu could damage souls, but like most things in Fairy Tail, there's room for interpretation.
Another example is Natsu "Burning Time". Some people say Natsu can burn time since it's written that way on the panel, while others say he can only burn magic like we saw many other times throughout the story. But because Natsu has literally never replicated this ability? We have no concrete evidence for one or the other.
There's also almost no evidence that the celestial spirit king scales to constellations outside of the anime & even if he did, we know the full power of spirits can't be brought into the real world. Since spirits are only as powerful as the mage summoning them. This is why Lucy's spirits continue to grow stronger alongside her.
This kind of logic can go on almost forever, for both characters. Natsu burning time might be slower than time travel, Shinra might be above a potentially Multiversal Adola, You could scale base forms for both off planetary feats (Like Arthur & The Phoenix) or you could use universal metas (like Sho freezing the universe, Zeref resetting it)
So honestly? Trying to claim the interpretations in this video "lack critical points" to cover this topic, Is just silly to me. Because these characters simply don't have any other lines of scaling, that are more consistent than what was shown. As almost anything we can bring to the table, has some degree of contradiction.
And while it's obviously fine if you disagree with my assessment, I don't think these alternate interpretations automatically become correct. But rather, just exist as more equally valid ways of seeing the matchup.
@@TUCKALMIGHTY the reason Natsu can’t effect Wraith initially despite the soul arguments I made is for the very simple reason that Dragon slayer versions of elements are qualitatively and quantitatively superior to regular elements. Wraith isn’t just a ghost he’s a ghost dragon slayer.
As far as burning time goes he’s just never needed to in any other situation, it wouldn’t help him against any of his opponents in 100YQ. You can expect to see crazy feats like that around when 100YQ ends, that’s always when Mashima pulls out the absurd scaling in all of his series. He’s done in without fail every time in Rave Master, OG Fairy Tail, and Edens Zero.
Evidence isn’t needed outside the anime, the Eclipse arc is a canon part of the story. This isn’t even a matter of interpretation it’s a matter of comprehension. The Eclipse arc was factually canonized.
Natsu is able to perceive Zeref moving backwards in time so this is another time hax resistance that Natsu would be able to apply against Shinra.
Ultimately I do agree that Natsu vs Shinra breaks down to micro debates and subtle points that aren’t considered enough. I just tend to fall on the side that Natsu comes out on top. I’ve been a Fairy Tail fan for a very long time and a Fire Force fan since chapter 0 so these are both series I deeply love.
Natsu and shinra gets destroyed by Lego Spider-Man
I haven't seen the video yet but Shinra is beating the dog brakes off of Natsu.
shinra no diffs natsu
Ok? Tell someone who cares. This is just fun to watch.
Bro commented twice
Bro had to comment it twice💀
Natsu negs
If it's ShinraBanshoMan he solos all of fairy tail
@@RajdeepBhandari-bb6zm Natsu is enough for Shinrabanshoman
Please make Orochimaru ( NARUTO ) vs Alucard ( HELLSING ULTIMATE )
it's pretty interesting since they have similarities
shinra no diffs natsu
Shinrabanshoman yes but shinra loses hard to natsu
@@Saiyan295He doesn't. He could kick him so hard back in time that the kick applies into the present or he could take him to the past. He could throw him into space all of this before Natsu can even react because unlike what people say, Natsu can't react to an attack that happens in stopped time. He can burn Time magic but he doesn't have instantaneous reaction speed. It's that time slows down. He can't do anything about it
@doriankamanzi6874 ok but natsu can burn time and move during stopped time, I HIGHLY doubt him getting sent back in time would work
Please make Orochimaru ( NARUTO ) vs Alucard ( HELLSING ULTIMATE )
it's pretty interesting since they have similarities