This was a great intro video for audio techs who have never worked with networks. I would strongly suggest making a separate video about some of the challenges when implementing Audio over IP, such as latency, lost packets, network congestion/interference etc. I would also explain that,in the real world, you should NEVER connect a audio network to a non-audio network without significant segmentation. (Or you could end up with large headaches where you can spend days or even weeks troubleshooting trying to find out which non-audio device connected to your network is causing interference that negatively impacts the quality of the audio you are sending over the network.) This is quite a complex topic and not something I would suggest most audio engineers implement without learning the ins and outs of computer networks. -This is coming from someone who has worked on implementing large corporate audio and video networks.
You can certainly implement protocols like Dante on corporate networks, but I agree that requires more configuration. But on a home network or studio network, it doesn't require much setup at all. The challenges on corporate networks are more a function of the corporate network than they are a function of Dante. haha. Thanks for the thoughtful comment. You are correct that there is varying complexity, depending on the deployment.
1) Analog audio over twisted pair network cable. 2) Digital audio over twisted pair network cable. 3) Digital audio over IP. 1 and 2 have NOTHING to do with Ethernet. It's akin to calling cable terminated with 5-pin XLR a "DMX" cable. DMX runs ON the cable, Ethernet runs ON the cable. Hope this helps.
Love the clear explanation - as someone with Dante I & II, this really covers the essential bits that are often hard to explain to entry-level audio engineers who haven't yet dipped their toe in networking. Thanks as always for the great content.
Never leaving any video, it's always great to watch these , even if it's not understandable to me sometimes. I have a request by the way, i would really like a video dedicated on DSP's and every function of them .
I loved this video! I got into learning audio over a decade ago by teaching myself audio production and recording using Ableton. I fell off of music making for a few years when I started building a family with my wife. Then last year I started working as an electricians apprentice, and I learned a lot about construction and electrical theory. I eventually learned of the structured cabling company that I now work for, and knew that this is the field that I wanted to work in. Our bread and butter is pulling Cat6 and fiber optics for network and telecommunications cabling, but we also do door access, security cameras, and PA audio systems. Now I get to work with my hands, doing things like bending conduit, building and installing network racks, fishing cables down walls, etc. AND I get to work on computer and audio systems. I want to become the companies go-to audio guy and hopefully give the company the ability to secure more and bigger A/V contracts, and be able to integrate those with our network systems, and this channel has helped a lot with learning more about audio systems and how electrical theory applies to audio. I can’t wait to go through the Dante certification courses and add that, along with my BICSI certification, to my resume.
Kyle, another excellent presentation of a complex subject. This is stuff everyone should know, including audio teachers who didn't have this technology at the time you were in school
Seen these adaptors on amazon and wondered what the deal is with those. Just learned basic IT networking a bit on my own studies. Now I can use IT knowledge my second love (computers) with my first love (audio.) I need to get into those free courses! At 63 I still want to learn, very cool. Love it.
Some notes about the arp command: On some systems (most linux distros), you will need to run "arp" with sudo (edit: this is untrue, see comments below), for security reasons. Also, the arp table won't necessarily show all devices on the network. It is only populated with devices that your system has sent an arp request for and received a response. For example, I just ran arp on my system, and it didn't see the IP/mac of my doorbell camera listed. After pinging that IP address though, that device *is* listed in my arp table. Things can get more even more fuzzy when things like vlans and layer 2 vs layer 3 switches are brought into the conversation. And then there's IPv6... Great video though, despite my nitpicking.
@@Douglas_Gillette You are correct. My arp command is in /usr/sbin, which isn't part of my non-root-user path. So I jumped to the conclusion I *needed* root. My bad.
I AM an IT and networking engineer:-) Musician is what I want to become. Notes, I need some notes, notes to build chords, chords to build songs, that's the way it goes.
I've been kicking around the idea of a Focusrite's Rednet line because they offer control surfaces with the interfaces, but when people talk about Dante Networks, I send out a 422 error code. Thanks for the introduction. Dante now feels a lot less intimidating.
Logically assigned static addresses are easier to keep track of. 255 is broadcast and 254 is by usual convention an upstream router. I don't think 0 is necessarily reserved. You can also manage the addresses on the router with a MAC table to avoid them being random.
General rule is to avoid the first and last numbers on the subnet. In "Ye Olden Days..." these were used as broadcast addresses within the subnet, and .1 and .254 were for routers. Or for failover .2 and .3 for physical interfaces and .1 for the virtual interface.
How does Dante devices deal with audio delay? Given network latency and presumed packet transmission via UDP, is audio delay and signal integrity a problem?
To clarify, “over an IP network” is a phrase you used. Most Dante use cases involve using only switches. Switches understand Ethernet frames. They do not process or understand IP packets. I personally don’t like the phrase “IP network” to describe the devices that move data. If you want to use that kind of phrase, “Ethernet network” would be better.
It’s an IP network if the protocols being communicated operate on L3 or higher. Yes, the L3 packet is encapsulated into a L2 frame for the switch to transfer but that doesn’t mean the L3 data is lost. If that were the case, literally no network would be an IP network. It’s only a L2 network if no IP addresses are used (only MAC addresses) and even then, there’s an argument to be made about how much of a “network” that is. L2 audio protocols are mostly considered point to point. And lastly, switches can be L2, L3, or somewhere in between.
SO my quesiton is what is the best way to get a DANTE loaded AD/DA converter into your PC? you could plug in directly into the eth port but are there PCIe cards etc that deals with things better?
Might sound stupid but. Does knowing ip adress of someone who use this allows me to "connect" with them even if we are like whole neighborhood apart or even whole continent?
In theory, you can stream audio protocols like Dante and AVB over public networks. However, there has to be a lot of settings enabled across all those networks to work. I will say that Presonus has a nifty implementation of AVB that allows you to mix a session on their devices from anywhere in the world. This will become more prolific as networks implement these protocols more.
@@esSKay25 oh i see... Now, what's this presonus implementation you talked about? Is it like a features built into their daw, where it acts like 'consumer grade/easier version' of these AVB thingy?
I have a question ? How can we use Dual Speaker on single passive network. Means single will be of 8 ohm so in parallel so they will 4 ohm so I want to use 2 LF driver on single channel at 4 ohm !
I cannot seem to find a clear answer on Reddit, etc. I want to see if networking computers would be of benefit in terms of secondary computers hosting effects and synths so I get more plugins running at once. Is this feasible? Yeah yeah, build a powerful computer, etc. but what if I keep yesterdays beast and have it support the new beast?
I'd prefer to list all MACs before installation and setup a ARP bonding table on the router pages, so that all devices get static ip address. for short, plan before you do.
There are lots of differences - connector types, channel count, etc. I’d recommend doing some research on these protocols. It’s too much info for a TH-cam comments section.
Your statement about `arp -a` is inaccurate. The command shows a cache of IP address-to-MAC address mappings. It does not show all available devices on the network. You would have to do something like a ping sweep to see all available devices on a subnet. Immediately after you do the sweep, an `arp -a` would show those devices.
It is highly recommended that you use a standalone Dante network. If you just plug in Dante devices to a larger network, you might end up with an effective broadcast storm.
You’d only get a network storm if two ports on a network were sending duplicate data and overwhelming all the gear in the broadcast domain. You are likely to get addressing issues, a fight for bandwidth, QoS issues, and security scrutiny, though.
Lots of things covered here but Im at a loss for some of the items mentioned, its like I need particular things defined first to be able to put it all together.
For completeness you should have mentioned IPv6, it doesn’t change much but it’s good to know when you see an IPv6 address. Specifically, no NAT, so every GUA address is visible / accessible from the outside -> proper firewall configuration!! (should have been the case for IPv4 already..) There are „private“ addresses in IPv6, they are called ULA and don’t route outside. You can have a LAN with only those. IPv6 is best left to setup itself -> SLAAC. Many more options to consider for IPv6 dual-stack / mostly / only networks. Afaik, Dante supports IPv6 dual-stack / mostly / only networks, so you will see those addresses. Also huge, they have 128-Bits 64 of which are the client addresses and the other 64 are the subnet. So you get 2^64 addresses for one subnet. This is useful for audio networks, because you don’t run into a address space problem ever again.
Dante Via can suck it until they remove the Wifi limitation. There should be no restriction to which network interface you can choose. Dante only works with hardwired networks! Sonobus is 1000% better and free!
I learnt computer networking this semester, and I must say your explanation was really solid.
Getting sponsored by Dante is crazy 😧
This was a great intro video for audio techs who have never worked with networks.
I would strongly suggest making a separate video about some of the challenges when implementing Audio over IP, such as latency, lost packets, network congestion/interference etc.
I would also explain that,in the real world, you should NEVER connect a audio network to a non-audio network without significant segmentation. (Or you could end up with large headaches where you can spend days or even weeks troubleshooting trying to find out which non-audio device connected to your network is causing interference that negatively impacts the quality of the audio you are sending over the network.)
This is quite a complex topic and not something I would suggest most audio engineers implement without learning the ins and outs of computer networks.
-This is coming from someone who has worked on implementing large corporate audio and video networks.
You can certainly implement protocols like Dante on corporate networks, but I agree that requires more configuration. But on a home network or studio network, it doesn't require much setup at all. The challenges on corporate networks are more a function of the corporate network than they are a function of Dante. haha. Thanks for the thoughtful comment. You are correct that there is varying complexity, depending on the deployment.
1) Analog audio over twisted pair network cable.
2) Digital audio over twisted pair network cable.
3) Digital audio over IP.
1 and 2 have NOTHING to do with Ethernet. It's akin to calling cable terminated with 5-pin XLR a "DMX" cable. DMX runs ON the cable, Ethernet runs ON the cable.
Hope this helps.
Great clarification. Ethernet is not a medium like copper, fiber or radio.
This video has several inaccuracies.
Great intro video!
As a full-time network engineer, and part-time audio engineer, this is something I am very interested in.
"Yo bro wake up. Audio University uploaded"
Love the clear explanation - as someone with Dante I & II, this really covers the essential bits that are often hard to explain to entry-level audio engineers who haven't yet dipped their toe in networking. Thanks as always for the great content.
Are you serious?
Thanks for that concise outline of a complex system. Also thanks to Dante for sponsoring a video that was not full of hype - just the facts 🙂
You should definitely keep going with this series, very helpful and the future
Am whatchin you from Angola, África 🇦🇴
Keep going🤙🏾
Never leaving any video, it's always great to watch these , even if it's not understandable to me sometimes. I have a request by the way, i would really like a video dedicated on DSP's and every function of them .
I loved this video! I got into learning audio over a decade ago by teaching myself audio production and recording using Ableton. I fell off of music making for a few years when I started building a family with my wife. Then last year I started working as an electricians apprentice, and I learned a lot about construction and electrical theory. I eventually learned of the structured cabling company that I now work for, and knew that this is the field that I wanted to work in. Our bread and butter is pulling Cat6 and fiber optics for network and telecommunications cabling, but we also do door access, security cameras, and PA audio systems. Now I get to work with my hands, doing things like bending conduit, building and installing network racks, fishing cables down walls, etc. AND I get to work on computer and audio systems. I want to become the companies go-to audio guy and hopefully give the company the ability to secure more and bigger A/V contracts, and be able to integrate those with our network systems, and this channel has helped a lot with learning more about audio systems and how electrical theory applies to audio. I can’t wait to go through the Dante certification courses and add that, along with my BICSI certification, to my resume.
Thank’s for a comprehensive review of IP and Dante. Watching from Norway 🇳🇴
Kyle, another excellent presentation of a complex subject. This is stuff everyone should know, including audio teachers who didn't have this technology at the time you were in school
Seen these adaptors on amazon and wondered what the deal is with those. Just learned basic IT networking a bit on my own studies. Now I can use IT knowledge my second love (computers) with my first love (audio.) I need to get into those free courses! At 63 I still want to learn, very cool. Love it.
Some notes about the arp command: On some systems (most linux distros), you will need to run "arp" with sudo (edit: this is untrue, see comments below), for security reasons. Also, the arp table won't necessarily show all devices on the network. It is only populated with devices that your system has sent an arp request for and received a response. For example, I just ran arp on my system, and it didn't see the IP/mac of my doorbell camera listed. After pinging that IP address though, that device *is* listed in my arp table. Things can get more even more fuzzy when things like vlans and layer 2 vs layer 3 switches are brought into the conversation. And then there's IPv6...
Great video though, despite my nitpicking.
This applies when your are modifying the arp cache. In this context only reading it, sudo is not required.
@@Douglas_Gillette You are correct. My arp command is in /usr/sbin, which isn't part of my non-root-user path. So I jumped to the conclusion I *needed* root. My bad.
Thank you Audio University I just finished one of the course 🙏🙏
Networked audio use in Home Theater installs is gaining popularity. It is something I think I need to learn ASAP.
Love the new thumbnail format!! Claim a lot more attention in my feed. W
I AM an IT and networking engineer:-) Musician is what I want to become. Notes, I need some notes, notes to build chords, chords to build songs, that's the way it goes.
thank you....for the info...i'm gonna try to enroll for the Dante Certification.
Lots of love from Sri Lankaaaa your videos are extremely informative & useful thank Ü🎉
Keep it up , this is good information , thanks !
I've been kicking around the idea of a Focusrite's Rednet line because they offer control surfaces with the interfaces, but when people talk about Dante Networks, I send out a 422 error code. Thanks for the introduction. Dante now feels a lot less intimidating.
Logically assigned static addresses are easier to keep track of. 255 is broadcast and 254 is by usual convention an upstream router. I don't think 0 is necessarily reserved. You can also manage the addresses on the router with a MAC table to avoid them being random.
General rule is to avoid the first and last numbers on the subnet. In "Ye Olden Days..." these were used as broadcast addresses within the subnet, and .1 and .254 were for routers. Or for failover .2 and .3 for physical interfaces and .1 for the virtual interface.
Thanks for adding actual captions for the Deaf
AU: "I won't go into the math on this..."
Me, a programmer by trade: "Why? This is easy, basic stu....oh right, I'm not exactly the target audience."
Great video thanks!
This is enough background information for an audio engineer to understand what your network admin is talking about when your Dante network craps out.
How many audio channels AES can support?
It depends on which protocol you’re referring to - AES3, AES67, AES50, etc.
Interesting video!
Colputer nerd here
Nice explanation
How does Dante devices deal with audio delay? Given network latency and presumed packet transmission via UDP, is audio delay and signal integrity a problem?
It doesn’t. AVB does.
To clarify, “over an IP network” is a phrase you used.
Most Dante use cases involve using only switches. Switches understand Ethernet frames. They do not process or understand IP packets.
I personally don’t like the phrase “IP network” to describe the devices that move data. If you want to use that kind of phrase, “Ethernet network” would be better.
It’s an IP network if the protocols being communicated operate on L3 or higher. Yes, the L3 packet is encapsulated into a L2 frame for the switch to transfer but that doesn’t mean the L3 data is lost.
If that were the case, literally no network would be an IP network.
It’s only a L2 network if no IP addresses are used (only MAC addresses) and even then, there’s an argument to be made about how much of a “network” that is. L2 audio protocols are mostly considered point to point.
And lastly, switches can be L2, L3, or somewhere in between.
oh man... you are awesome..
SO my quesiton is what is the best way to get a DANTE loaded AD/DA converter into your PC? you could plug in directly into the eth port but are there PCIe cards etc that deals with things better?
Other than less hassle with the setup, is there a reason you're using DHCP vs static addresses?
thank you
much needed
Might sound stupid but. Does knowing ip adress of someone who use this allows me to "connect" with them even if we are like whole neighborhood apart or even whole continent?
No. You’d need to use a router and public IP address for that, because it’s outside the LAN. This is covered in the Dante training.
In theory, you can stream audio protocols like Dante and AVB over public networks. However, there has to be a lot of settings enabled across all those networks to work. I will say that Presonus has a nifty implementation of AVB that allows you to mix a session on their devices from anywhere in the world. This will become more prolific as networks implement these protocols more.
@@esSKay25 oh i see...
Now, what's this presonus implementation you talked about? Is it like a features built into their daw, where it acts like 'consumer grade/easier version' of these AVB thingy?
@@srrrb5953 their feature is called Metro, and it allows someone to operate their gear remotely over a broadband network. Pretty schnifty.
@@srrrb5953 it’s called Metro.
What about latency?
The typical default latency for a Dante audio device is 1ms.
The difference between Dante and AVB is that AVB guarantees latency and Dante is “best effort”.
I have a question ? How can we use Dual Speaker on single passive network. Means single will be of 8 ohm so in parallel so they will 4 ohm so I want to use 2 LF driver on single channel at 4 ohm !
I cannot seem to find a clear answer on Reddit, etc.
I want to see if networking computers would be of benefit in terms of secondary computers hosting effects and synths so I get more plugins running at once.
Is this feasible? Yeah yeah, build a powerful computer, etc. but what if I keep yesterdays beast and have it support the new beast?
I'd prefer to list all MACs before installation and setup a ARP bonding table on the router pages, so that all devices get static ip address. for short, plan before you do.
What is difference between AES3 vs AES67 VS AES 50
There are lots of differences - connector types, channel count, etc. I’d recommend doing some research on these protocols. It’s too much info for a TH-cam comments section.
Your statement about `arp -a` is inaccurate.
The command shows a cache of IP address-to-MAC address mappings. It does not show all available devices on the network.
You would have to do something like a ping sweep to see all available devices on a subnet. Immediately after you do the sweep, an `arp -a` would show those devices.
It is highly recommended that you use a standalone Dante network. If you just plug in Dante devices to a larger network, you might end up with an effective broadcast storm.
You’d only get a network storm if two ports on a network were sending duplicate data and overwhelming all the gear in the broadcast domain.
You are likely to get addressing issues, a fight for bandwidth, QoS issues, and security scrutiny, though.
Use AVB instead. The protocol ensures available bandwidth and latency on the network.
Lets go Dante
Lots of things covered here but Im at a loss for some of the items mentioned, its like I need particular things defined first to be able to put it all together.
For completeness you should have mentioned IPv6, it doesn’t change much but it’s good to know when you see an IPv6 address.
Specifically, no NAT, so every GUA address is visible / accessible from the outside -> proper firewall configuration!! (should have been the case for IPv4 already..)
There are „private“ addresses in IPv6, they are called ULA and don’t route outside. You can have a LAN with only those.
IPv6 is best left to setup itself -> SLAAC. Many more options to consider for IPv6 dual-stack / mostly / only networks.
Afaik, Dante supports IPv6 dual-stack / mostly / only networks, so you will see those addresses.
Also huge, they have 128-Bits 64 of which are the client addresses and the other 64 are the subnet. So you get 2^64 addresses for one subnet. This is useful for audio networks, because you don’t run into a address space problem ever again.
Dante is only IPv4.
What are the chances that I was looking for videos on Dante and AU posts a video about it exactly a day later…
I wish Dante devices were 25% to 30% less expensive. I'd own so many Dante devices but its cost prohibitive to adopt.
Not me, getting a degree in computer science at 28 because making custom tools is the wave
Turning 28 in a month and considering computer science degree, do you mind elaborating on what you mean by custom tools is the wave?
Man i am a network engineer whose biggest love is music, where do i fucking apply for jobs in audio over ethernet????
Check out the AV integration industry. AV, as in audio-video.
❤❤
Okay disregard my previous question, I am just gonna finish the video take the two free courses and get the certs.........lol
Dante Via can suck it until they remove the Wifi limitation. There should be no restriction to which network interface you can choose. Dante only works with hardwired networks! Sonobus is 1000% better and free!
Very informative...thank you
I think the music in the background is really distracting. You're better without the music
This was way overcomplicated for most use cases