The 1988 Olympics were what sparked the controversy over the 10. Too many 10s were awarded, including to routines like Kersten's that had visible errors. This began a long, complicated process of cleaning up and making the judging system more fair to both competitors and the sport in general.
strongbad635 True...but as much as I love Silivas' bar routine, she has ZERO amplitude on her release skills. And although a 10.000 is ridiculous for Dagmar's hop, her bar routine is superior to Silivas' for dd and perfect form/toepoint and perfect execution(amplitude, perfect Hand stand). Elena had the hardest bar set...a full twisting Tkatchev(still an E at least), a Gienger) and a half in half out double back dismount(by far the hardest dismount).
This is precisely why it became eventually necessary to move beyond the 10 scoring system. How else would we have made difficulty factor into the placements adequately? We kept shifting the code around so that a certain level of difficulty equalled a 10 and anything beyond that wasn't rewarded. So athletes like Kerstin were not rewarded for their higher difficulty, they only took the risk of making errors. Sometimes, this in this bar final, the judges factored that in and awarded a 10 anyway, but that confused the fans who saw errors and yet saw a 10 awarded anyway after years of being conditioned to see it as a "perfect" score. Anyone who says the open-ended scoring system is confusing has to explain how this was any less confusing for fans of the sport.
@@strongbad635 In an ideal world none of Silivas, Kersten, or Shushunova would have scored a 10 here. The exact scores they would have received and order could be debated, but none would be a 10. Boginskaya who is weak on bars even got a 9.987 which sort of made sense given the other scores. The scoring system was just wack. IMO the only truly merited 10 given out all Games was Shushunova's compulsory floor and maybe her compulsory bars which were sublime.
@twilliger123 Judging was horrible in these Olympics - but some justice was served, as Kersten was the only gymnast who had interesting transitions between the bars. All the others had the same dull routine
No, but the way the gymnast executes the skills are different now too. The gymnasts on bars dismounts - well today they tend to fly above the bar on dismount much more so, the mats on which they land are different too - the mats of those days look harder. I've always thought the current day mats must make it a bit harder to stick as they move with the gymnast as they land to help the absorb the landing. So a gymnast really needs to be in perfect position to stick. Also you notice a lot more low chest landings - seems partly a tactic to stick.
Miss this Era of gymnastics! Bouginskaya was absolute perfection here...well deserved gold. Shushonova was my favorite gymnast in the 80s and always rooted for her...glad she won the all around gold. Silivas is a brilliant gymnast as well but every gymnast has a weak event. Silivas weakness is the vault. Power and form just isn't there...and she was definitely overscored. No shade or I'll intent here...I loved Daniela Silivas and as I said...amazing gymnast.In the words of the great Nellie Kim...first you work for your name and then your name works for you.
My guess is that the judges wanted to reward her for her original composition and skills. But still, the score was still too high. But almost everyone's score in this final was too high.
Diego Romero was the head judge German? I agree, there must’ve been some shady stuff going on for her to receive a ten. Wonderful routine, but with that dismount it should be literally impossible to get a perfect score.
Shushunova's routine looks like a Modern routine. Kersten had a very original routine well deserved her silver with "imperfect" 10". I feel so bad about Thuemmler she had a nice routine too.
I"m not hating on anyone. I love Silivas. I just think that the judges were too generous with the scores in this competition. Not all three of those routines were worth a 10. Daniela's was, but the other two...eh. I'm glad Daniela came away with the gold medal. I'm just saying she deserved to win it on more than a technicality.
Absolutely. Her routine was not just flawless on skills but completely stunning. Those immaculate handstands seemed to go on as if an invisible force were holding her upright for hours. So much beauty in individual skills... She must have put in unbelievable amounts of time on her gymnastics. Like maybe a time machine!
Because the scores were added with their Prelim score and she had 9.987 (I think? or 9.937?) and Silivas had a 10 (this was the last Olympics that had scores carry over)
Was this the 1st Olympics where the uneven bars were moved further apart. It made the uneven bars my favorite in womens gymnastics. When the bars were close it was weird watching the gymnasts hit the lower bar with their waists while still holding onto the other bar. It also allowed for harder dismounts aswell
I think the uneven bars began to move apart around 1979 when the girls started doing giants. Over the decade, the bars were permitted to be further and further apart until belly beats became unnecessary or impossible.
I was 18 during these finals and I'd grown up on the phrase, "...and STUCK the landing!" as if the rest of the routines were...well, routine! *Just don't fall,* and stick that landing. Now I hear so much more complimentary assessment of gymnasts (e.g. Nastia Liukin's description of skills, etc. vs. Monica Phelps' style of personal critique and male commentators' frequent references to "body line," "tan," "haircut," and other irrelevancies) of the finer points, and I feel a bit more educated and can appreciate Daniela Silivas' gorgeous bars work--particularly her amazingly perfectly vertical, long-lasting handstands, her toe-point, and how neatly she keeps her legs touching, to begin. Just one example.
Of course like others said - it's above the ten had it's flaws. When Potorac performed a double twist, and Boginskaya, a tuck full that beats her? Boginskaya's vaults were the prettier though, I get that but their can't really be a comparison to a tuck full and double twist.
@twilliger123 You know I had this same complaint, but there was in interview with Muriel Grossfeld after Seoul and she said the judges there used the 10 to rank the gymnasts, and I think thats why they did that for Kersten. It does give some perspective into the imperfect 10
I'm sorry Potorac deserved the gold! She stuck both landings and was the only one who did a double twisting Yurachenko! Boginskaya always elegant but did a tuck full first vault and lands with her feet apart! Total bias in the judging as always.
Back then, scores from the compulsories and optional were averaged and carried over in to the event finals. Potorac was ranked fifth with a 9.887 average whereas Bohinskaya qualified second with a 9.937 average. Even if Potorac scored 10s on both vaults, she still would have placed second to Boginskaya.
@@rolandgreen7484 Exactly! All of the vaults that were at least a full twist were valued at a 10. I don't think there was even any difference whether you did the roundoff approach or not. An example of this ridiculousness was at the 1992 Olympics. Lavinia Milosovici did a full twisting Yurchenko with no steps and got a 9.975. Tatiana Lyssenko followed with a spectacular double twisting Yurchenko - no steps, no leg separation. She got a 9.95. It was scandalous.
Eu acho q ser a Rainha da Ginástica para Schoushounova pesou no seu confronto Individual por aparelhos com a Silivas !!! No final , as Divas dividiram o bastão ( estrelas da Ginástica 1988 e para sempre o Duelo dos duelos) com competência !!
@Katherine Keirns did I say it was an East German judge my comment?? Lmao no you making assumptions is hilarious. Inflation of scores doesn’t have to come from the same origin of the competitor. And the over score happened with a hope so please YOU move on.
Lame. Very lame. I know it was a routine but you can't compare her execution to Silivas. 9.95, sure, but a 10? The judges must have looked away before they saw her take that hop.
Its a shame she got through really as of course she messed up beam in the TC and didnt QF........thats one thing that should be stopped! this behind the scenes regigging of gymnasts.....you get one chance and if you mess it up, you mess it up!
One would hope most of these ex Russian & Romanian gymnast's English had improved, considering most of them end up over the pond with you in the US! Interviewer to Gutsu - Tatiana, would you like to go and live in a sunny climate away from complete poverty and socialism? Tatiana to interviewer - I leave now, I no wish to live in this shithole anymore........
And after she was pulled for not being psychologically ready she then became psychologically annoyed for many years after for being pulled with a made up scenario! they went on and on (your NBC commentators at least) about it, how Gutsu felt bad for her but didnt have a say in it (she prob didnt but hey she was game to go into the AA @ her expense no doubt as most gymnasts would in the same situation!)
Omg.. the girls was really awesome in the uneven bars
They just handed out 10s like Halloween candy at this Olympics
Thank you so much for posting these!
The 1988 Olympics were what sparked the controversy over the 10. Too many 10s were awarded, including to routines like Kersten's that had visible errors. This began a long, complicated process of cleaning up and making the judging system more fair to both competitors and the sport in general.
strongbad635 True...but as much as I love Silivas' bar routine, she has ZERO amplitude on her release skills. And although a 10.000 is ridiculous for Dagmar's hop, her bar routine is superior to Silivas' for dd and perfect form/toepoint and perfect execution(amplitude, perfect Hand stand). Elena had the hardest bar set...a full twisting Tkatchev(still an E at least), a Gienger) and a half in half out double back dismount(by far the hardest dismount).
This is precisely why it became eventually necessary to move beyond the 10 scoring system. How else would we have made difficulty factor into the placements adequately? We kept shifting the code around so that a certain level of difficulty equalled a 10 and anything beyond that wasn't rewarded. So athletes like Kerstin were not rewarded for their higher difficulty, they only took the risk of making errors. Sometimes, this in this bar final, the judges factored that in and awarded a 10 anyway, but that confused the fans who saw errors and yet saw a 10 awarded anyway after years of being conditioned to see it as a "perfect" score. Anyone who says the open-ended scoring system is confusing has to explain how this was any less confusing for fans of the sport.
agreed
If you thought this was bad, the 1989 Worlds was the absolute worst.
@@strongbad635 In an ideal world none of Silivas, Kersten, or Shushunova would have scored a 10 here. The exact scores they would have received and order could be debated, but none would be a 10. Boginskaya who is weak on bars even got a 9.987 which sort of made sense given the other scores. The scoring system was just wack. IMO the only truly merited 10 given out all Games was Shushunova's compulsory floor and maybe her compulsory bars which were sublime.
@twilliger123 Judging was horrible in these Olympics - but some justice was served, as Kersten was the only gymnast who had interesting transitions between the bars. All the others had the same dull routine
Boguinskaya was a stellar female gymnast .!
Bogie is always wonderful
DANIELA SILIVAS so perfect great great gymnast legend forever !!!
Agree
Wonderful landings! Gymnasts do not land like that nowadays!
No, but the way the gymnast executes the skills are different now too. The gymnasts on bars dismounts - well today they tend to fly above the bar on dismount much more so, the mats on which they land are different too - the mats of those days look harder. I've always thought the current day mats must make it a bit harder to stick as they move with the gymnast as they land to help the absorb the landing. So a gymnast really needs to be in perfect position to stick. Also you notice a lot more low chest landings - seems partly a tactic to stick.
@her0esfan Yes she did. Like Nadia before her she scored a perfect 40.00 total at those Olympics on bars-she equaled Comaneci's record on that event.
Miss this Era of gymnastics! Bouginskaya was absolute perfection here...well deserved gold. Shushonova was my favorite gymnast in the 80s and always rooted for her...glad she won the all around gold. Silivas is a brilliant gymnast as well but every gymnast has a weak event. Silivas weakness is the vault. Power and form just isn't there...and she was definitely overscored. No shade or I'll intent here...I loved Daniela Silivas and as I said...amazing gymnast.In the words of the great Nellie Kim...first you work for your name and then your name works for you.
im confused as to how dagmar kersten received that 10. She had a hop on landing that was unmistakable.
Kersten said later in a interview, that her injured ankles were so painful, that it was impossible for her to stand still after a landing.
Dutchfan33 regardless, she took a step....the judges arent going to excuse a hop just bc the gymnast is injured.....this is the Olympics here.
My guess is that the judges wanted to reward her for her original composition and skills. But still, the score was still too high. But almost everyone's score in this final was too high.
I agree. She did not deserve that but we all know that head judge had to do something with it.
Diego Romero was the head judge German? I agree, there must’ve been some shady stuff going on for her to receive a ten. Wonderful routine, but with that dismount it should be literally impossible to get a perfect score.
@twiliger123 Didn't you get the memo? Kersten's routine was out of a 10.1 due to the little-known "great 80s hair" bonus.
Can’t see lots of releases in her routine?
And look at the vaulting apparatus they were using too do those DTY's !
wow... they are so original and creative here it's so amazing! :D... the gymnasts seem to have lost that with time sadly :(
Shushunova's routine looks like a Modern routine. Kersten had a very original routine well deserved her silver with "imperfect" 10". I feel so bad about Thuemmler she had a nice routine too.
I"m not hating on anyone. I love Silivas. I just think that the judges were too generous with the scores in this competition. Not all three of those routines were worth a 10. Daniela's was, but the other two...eh. I'm glad Daniela came away with the gold medal. I'm just saying she deserved to win it on more than a technicality.
Absolutely. Her routine was not just flawless on skills but completely stunning. Those immaculate handstands seemed to go on as if an invisible force were holding her upright for hours. So much beauty in individual skills... She must have put in unbelievable amounts of time on her gymnastics. Like maybe a time machine!
some of these routines dont desevere some of these scores
daniylea slavias 10??????????? or who ever u spell her name
Because the scores were added with their Prelim score and she had 9.987 (I think? or 9.937?) and Silivas had a 10 (this was the last Olympics that had scores carry over)
Was this the 1st Olympics where the uneven bars were moved further apart. It made the uneven bars my favorite in womens gymnastics. When the bars were close it was weird watching the gymnasts hit the lower bar with their waists while still holding onto the other bar. It also allowed for harder dismounts aswell
I think the uneven bars began to move apart around 1979 when the girls started doing giants. Over the decade, the bars were permitted to be further and further apart until belly beats became unnecessary or impossible.
Such a cool mount from Thuemmler!!! Why don't people do things like that anymore? Is it banned?
I was 18 during these finals and I'd grown up on the phrase, "...and STUCK the landing!" as if the rest of the routines were...well, routine! *Just don't fall,* and stick that landing.
Now I hear so much more complimentary assessment of gymnasts (e.g. Nastia Liukin's description of skills, etc. vs. Monica Phelps' style of personal critique and male commentators' frequent references to "body line," "tan," "haircut," and other irrelevancies) of the finer points, and I feel a bit more educated and can appreciate Daniela Silivas' gorgeous bars work--particularly her amazingly perfectly vertical, long-lasting handstands, her toe-point, and how neatly she keeps her legs touching, to begin.
Just one example.
i love to see how they don't do as diffucult skills then now, but i love to see the progress. i am surprised that some people did double yurchenko's.
Double twisting Yurchenkos were happening as early as 1983! And to think some girls at the elite level STILL can't manage that vault.
Silivas was beautiful on the bars. Kersten did NOT deserve that 10.
Silivas certainly did. Who was the lead judge again...?
Medals were justly distributed but not the scores.
What errors did Boguinskaya make?? I thought she'd get a 10
ADaughterOfMoon less difficulty. in this point in the final a bunch of other girls showed much more difficulty
Most of the judges gave her a 10, otherwise 9.987 wouldn’t have been possible
Of course like others said - it's above the ten had it's flaws. When Potorac performed a double twist, and Boginskaya, a tuck full that beats her? Boginskaya's vaults were the prettier though, I get that but their can't really be a comparison to a tuck full and double twist.
erm obvious not above.
Also there not their, ugh.
@twilliger123 You know I had this same complaint, but there was in interview with Muriel Grossfeld after Seoul and she said the judges there used the 10 to rank the gymnasts, and I think thats why they did that for Kersten. It does give some perspective into the imperfect 10
Fantástico!!!😱😱😱
How could the girl Kirsten get a 10 when she had a big hop on the landing
@her0esfan
i think so
it said that she had already gotten three tens so that would be compulsories, optionals, finals, and event finals.
Queria ver a nota da Chochounova!
Só fera!!!
I'm sorry Potorac deserved the gold! She stuck both landings and was the only one who did a double twisting Yurachenko! Boginskaya always elegant but did a tuck full first vault and lands with her feet apart! Total bias in the judging as always.
Pol
Back then, scores from the compulsories and optional were averaged and carried over in to the event finals. Potorac was ranked fifth with a 9.887 average whereas Bohinskaya qualified second with a 9.937 average. Even if Potorac scored 10s on both vaults, she still would have placed second to Boginskaya.
@@rolandgreen7484 Exactly! All of the vaults that were at least a full twist were valued at a 10. I don't think there was even any difference whether you did the roundoff approach or not. An example of this ridiculousness was at the 1992 Olympics. Lavinia Milosovici did a full twisting Yurchenko with no steps and got a 9.975. Tatiana Lyssenko followed with a spectacular double twisting Yurchenko - no steps, no leg separation. She got a 9.95. It was scandalous.
In fact, Thummler had great leg form here.
Eu acho q ser a Rainha da Ginástica para Schoushounova pesou no seu confronto Individual por aparelhos com a Silivas !!!
No final , as Divas dividiram o bastão ( estrelas da Ginástica 1988 e para sempre o Duelo dos duelos) com competência !!
Ok 10.0 means perfection.... Well it's supposed to anyway. NOT HERE..
My guess would be after 92 cos I think TG was long gone wasnt she by 96'??
So Glad they got rid of the 10...Because these were not 10 routines...They were difficult but some more than others
We all know Kersten's score was influenced by one of the head judges. If you know, you know 🙄.
@Katherine Keirns did I say it was an East German judge my comment?? Lmao no you making assumptions is hilarious. Inflation of scores doesn’t have to come from the same origin of the competitor. And the over score happened with a hope so please YOU move on.
Daniela Silivas does it with no grips!
so did silivas get 4 10s for her bars?
Magnus Magnussen Yes she did.
its called a 'disgrace' personally the judges should be removed......of course we all know now these competitions were fixed some times back then!
Daniela Silivas is the star
Oq é essa maquiagem da Dagmar ??? 🙄
Lame. Very lame. I know it was a routine but you can't compare her execution to Silivas. 9.95, sure, but a 10? The judges must have looked away before they saw her take that hop.
Daniela SILLYVASH. the way they say her last name is odd.
Its a shame she got through really as of course she messed up beam in the TC and didnt QF........thats one thing that should be stopped! this behind the scenes regigging of gymnasts.....you get one chance and if you mess it up, you mess it up!
Gutsu?
One would hope most of these ex Russian & Romanian gymnast's English had improved, considering most of them end up over the pond with you in the US! Interviewer to Gutsu - Tatiana, would you like to go and live in a sunny climate away from complete poverty and socialism? Tatiana to interviewer - I leave now, I no wish to live in this shithole anymore........
And after she was pulled for not being psychologically ready she then became psychologically annoyed for many years after for being pulled with a made up scenario! they went on and on (your NBC commentators at least) about it, how Gutsu felt bad for her but didnt have a say in it (she prob didnt but hey she was game to go into the AA @ her expense no doubt as most gymnasts would in the same situation!)
When gymnasts were great at tumbling and artistry. I can’t stand new code gymnastics. It’s boring and clunky