Yeah, if the devs don't want this game to die they need to start working on solutions to this kind of stuff right away, They might have a vision for how their game is supposed to be played but their vision wont matter if casuals drop the game and the studio gets closed
They are already, Asmongold misrepresented and simplified AoC's proposed PvP system in a way which supported this narrative. His description of "pvp only allows for griefing" applies to Vanilla WoW, not this. There's a counter balance for non consensual pvp in AoC, which is punitive in nature. Opposite of WoW, which rewards PvP points, incentivizing. Any time someone considers ganking another player, they must weigh in the potential benefits vs the penalties. Think of it as a more robust evolution of Runescape's wilderness pvp. AoC pvp is nothing new, it already exists and is a tried and tested formula.
@@gr33dl0cknein3 What are these penalties? I know nothing of this game, but I've played RS, and know getting "skulled" is absolutely not enough of a punishment. EDIT: Ok it was shown later in the video. I suppose that's a bit better, although I'm still not sure that's enough.
Ultima Online does it best. If you kill anyone, your name turns red and noone is punished for attacking you. Basically a huge target on your back for free kills / gear while at the same time warning 'weaker' players to run away before getting into a fight.
Same in Red Dead Online, plus you become visible in the map from much farther away. It works pretty well for those wanting to avoid grifters and those wanting to punish them.
The person who used Elden Ring as an example is just wrong as it is situational pvp, the system works in a way that you can invade but the odds are stacked against you, and people can play offline if they don't want to deal with it
That’s why he didn’t even respond to it, I hope most players realize that using the online play items means… you’re online and eligible to be invaded lol
The other major difference is that elden ring is 100% consensual. You don't even have to play off line, pvp is 100% activated by the player getting invaded. You choose if you want that to be a function, and you're entirely aware of it happening. It's not even a continuous thing, you moment to moment specifically open yourself up to the opportunity of being invaded. By activation of a finger or a summon, you're deliberately choosing consensually to have an invade occur. And it is an extremely healthy community game state. It doesn't have the same toxicity or griefing ganking ideology, because of its design, it is in an extremely healthy community design intent functional state
I assumed the world PvP would be 'When out in the wilds you might be jumped - but that player gains a bounty as a result.' Not 'Max level player camps the spot where new players spawn - calls you no fun if you don't enjoy it.'
@@ToMaSsS10 oh sweet summer child, you obviously never experienced joys of WoW open world "PvP" where favorite past time of max level players was raiding other sides starting zones and not only stomping characters that literally couldnt harm them but also wreck zones quest givers and utility NPCs so that the newbies LITERALLY couldnt progress at all...
A system admin spamming the message "leave the bald one alone" at players so they leave a streamer alone is such a 2024 thing. If that happened back in the old days I'd freak tf out, like wtf is happening am I cursed or something or did I hit a friendly NPC lmaooo
Makes me feel old when you say that. Like in Morrowind when you kill an important NPC in the game and a "With this character's death..." message pops up on your screen and makes you feel like you screwed up big time
How is that a 2024 thing? I feel like that's a return to early MMOs back when there were actual GMs who also interacted with players from time to time and even made mini/random events happen.
@@1ProAssassin Right! I remember getting to know certain ones and even being on friendly terms with them. There were some who even hung out in the in-game nightclubs on certain nights. (There we're players with DJ characters who would also play music IRL on a streaming channel most of us who frequented the clubs would listen in on which added a whole other layer to it. I've seen that in other MMOs as well.)
They should add a Bounty system where highly aggressive players who target low level characters and grief will incur a bounty, thus allowing other players that choose not to grief can get rewards/XP from killing the griefers.
Seems like it would be a really easy system to abuse/exploit for profit, which almost incentivizes spawn-camp grief'ing. The greater the reward for killing someone with a bounty, the more incentive guilds (or just friend groups with no official connection in game) have to run that bounty up, farming it for XP/gear/currency, where they take turns being the griefer and the bounty hunter. There's a reason we've never seen a mainstream full-loot pvp MMO; there are just too many ways to ruin the experience for new players and drive the player count into the dirt. Now we have the issue of streamers on top of it, and that's yet another variable to solve for... I give this game 6mo (tops) after it's official launch before they make pvp opt-in or create a pve server.
@@mfallen2023 very simple solution - a player loses 3 items, and his hunter gets 1-2 lost items of the victim. There is no point in abuse such a system :) I hate casuals who cry about open pvp in mmorpgs.
@@bigfunguss83 And who cares exactly who the potential ‘outlaw’ killed? The hunter who kills him will be rewarded with 1 of the 2-3 items dropped from the ‘outlaw’.
@@mfallen2023 There will be no problems if you don't generate rewards out of thin air. The griefer will drop their items and money and get into debt, or part of the items would even get destroyed, so it's less than 100% return rate. The corruption effects become long-term and exponential. Obviously this also needs to go with strict multi-account regulations so you can't just extract value out of throwaway accounts.
Random non-developer amateur gamers immediately spoke up and said: I'm not a smart man, but there gonna be spawn camping here. Game developers: we do not think that will be an issue.
If I purchase/log in in a brand new game, and I get griefed by tryhards in starting zones, I IMMEDIATELY refund/uninstall a game. Doesn't matter how good a game looks / plays, how much time it took to make. If I come home after a long day at work and just want to grind some mobs but I am not allowed to do so because some "people are like that and they enjoy PvP and griefing people", they can grief each other until the whole game dies, i will take no part in such an "experience".
Asmongold missed the point Steven highlighted for why non-consenual PVP exists and it's the same reason as Archeage. It's not there to grief people hence the extreme punishments, it's there to fight over limited resources. If someone's in your gathering spot do you kill them gather and run away before their guild gets there? If someone's trying to take your dungeon grinding spot do you kill them to get the spot? If someone's doing a trade run and you kill them to take their shit, that's also worth it. He's missing what people can gain from murdering others so he see's it as "Well the only person that would do this would be to grief someone for no reason" when there would be actual, tangible benefits to doing so.
why make it so you can get killed by another player the milisecond you spawn in that seems very stupid. theres a reason why there isnt world pvp in the starting zones for each class in wow.
Because they're unexperienced. They never created an MMO in their lives. I refuse to believe they have any professional experience regarding that. Or even basic Multiplayer Game Design knowledge, for that matter
Story of every PVP MMO is PVPers kill PVEers usually in the most unfair ways possible. PVEers bitch about it and get told "This is a PVP game! Go play some care bare game!" PVEers say "ok" and leave. 10 years later PVPers talk about how great that game was and they can't believe it died after 6 months.
Yeah idk how Asmon can say that when WoW had the worst non-consensual PvP system - faction based PvP. I assume AoC basically directly copied the early version of Lineage 2's PK system and it's going to be super punishing to constantly PK non-flagged players. It's literally a self-grief to PK players in Lineage 2 most of the time, because anyone experienced enough will just keep coming back to try to kill you and you will be froced to either keep PK'ing or run away, change exp spot and try to remvoe your corruption points.
I love how universal is this "non consensual pvp" problem. When I look back at our old Ultima Online server for 10-50 players, if there was one thing that could destroy the community, it was exactly that. In my experience, MMO will always have more people engaging in PvE content, than PvP one. And if you get your PvE enjoyers murdered by a "griefer" because PvP is not optional, you will lose your PvE players. ALWAYS.
When first starting, there should be a level discrepancy based timer to reduce frequency of grief ganks. If someone is significantly higher level and just one shotting everyone at spawn, there should be a timer on that person's ability to repeat a kill, to allow the lower level player the opportunity to regain their lost XP and avoid going into XP debt entirely. The higher level you become the shorter your timer, until level ~20 or whatever and the timer entirely drops off and it's all open PvP. A community will literally never grow if new players are unable to move from spawn because some Dorito fingers has been camped out there since launch.
@@MATCHLESS789 because then people leave ... then gankers leave because they are bored ... then the game dies ... proper solution is having dedicated PvP zones and instances
@@MATCHLESS789 So griefers are a minority of people who are able to tank the fun of a much larger number of people, people then stop playing the game, because as you rightly say "it's a game, why the f should I waste my time being grief-fodder". Leads to player decline and eventually there's basically no game left, ffs
High level player are gonna reach a point we're they've done everything so gathering a group of friends to create a massacre it's gonna be a source of entertainment.
I hate non voluntary PVP, absolutely kills a game before it ever gets a solid player base. Just watching what happened to Asmon I don't ever want to try this game.
What you and Asmon don't seem to comprehend is the possibility of the corruption system being so severe that this wouldn't be a big issue. You are closed to this possibility, when past games were not severe enough with their own corruption systems.
This is why I think games like Aion did it well. With Aion, you pick one of two sides and start out in a strictly PvE environment for your side. Then, as you get up in levels, you move into PvE areas where portals will sometimes open allowing people from the opposing faction entering your PvE map and vice versa. Putting level caps on the portals so that the players are level appropriate for that particular map. Then, once you near max level, you enter an area that is shared with the opposing faction. While the two factions enter this last area at opposite ends, it's all pretty much accessible for both sides. The game is advertised as PvPvE. Even the last area has both sides competing taking control of multiple strongholds where control is obtained, not by killing the other faction, but by taking on open world raid bosses.
This going to be juicy if done. 😂 Cuz man, it's gonna be A LOT. One for example was when he reacted the Heelvsbabyface and Actman Drama. He was incredibly biased for Actman who was in the wrong.
@@davidboi4025 do you have to agree with everything someone has ever said to consider his overall work good? In this case it's even something where he publicly apologized and went back on.
It's like everyone forgets that WoW was the first game back in the 2000s that got rid of non-consensual pvp. Also, WoW ended up being the biggest MMO ever during that time. I think pvp clearly had a factor in that.
@@LudwigVaanArthans maybe because the game has no incentive to play this PvP in open world? Is it that the game rewards you more for pve rather than pvp?
WoW lacks many open-world PvP incentives but there are still some, and I have many friends who loved to do open-world PvP before the introduction of flying mounts. The issue isn't if there are incentives, the issue is that if there is a mechanic in a game, someone will abuse it, and if that issue is at the detriment of others, the long-term health of the game, or themselves, people will still do it. The point of AoC isn't about money, instead, it is about creating a game for the fans of MMORPGs, which number in the tens of millions. EVEs active pop hasn't gone over 400k in the last year, BDO hasn't gone over 500k, Albion over 180K, Lineage 2 over 180k... so forth and so on. In total all these open-world PvP-reliant games haven't had a combined active yearly pop of over 2 million. WoW Classic had an active population of over 6 million so we know there are a lot of people who want to play MMORPGS. If AoC really wants to achieve its' goal of being the next big MMORPG that caters to the full spectrum of the MMORPG audience and has a truly massive active world of engaged players, they need to make sure they don't have systems that let players shoot themselves in the foot for the fun of it and harm the larger audience just so a smaller few can have their own fun.
Asmongold is correct about games with non-consensual PvP. They become much smaller populations that spend time beefing with each other rather than growing the audience. If it's in the game at launch, the game is DOA.
Yeah you are correct. Games I played in the past even though they had penalties, the entire time was spent dealing with drama between players rather than playing the game which became tiresome. New players get killed once, then they are corrupted by the toxicity especially younger players.
Yep, I refuse to even try playing a game like this any more. Its the exact opposite of fun if you're not 12 living with your parents and have 20 hours a day to grind.
Helldivers 2 is starting to get this way too. I dropped into a game and the host started blasting everyone in a mech, and if you didn't drop would kick you which means you're still in the mission it's just a solo mission now. Still got that extraction but I set the game down for a few days afterwards.
The devs seem hell-bent on introducing so many punitive features. I'm not sure where the fun comes from any of it. MMO's over two decades old understood the balance.
The one thing that I won't ever understand is creating a forced PvP game with the intent to encourage the player to do PvP while punishing the player for doing PvP.
There's PvP and there's griefing. The one thing that I won't ever understand is playing a PvP game to only attack level 1 people when you're level 13+ with no challenge and no benefit.
Thanks. Also blows my mind. They should just play the simpsons “HA HA” sound effect so you know you’re being trolled by the dev AND the player griefing you.
I think the problem is that a player shouldn't be ganked by a higher level player as soon as they load into the game, it's against ToS. Can't even do this in Eve without getting banned.
They should just make "Auto Flag Zones" and keep it a flag system. That way people don't get cherrypicked-banned and allows for people to avoid the zones or take the risk of entering the zones for the better loot/etc.
Open world non-consentual PvP rarely works that well. It's almost always in the attackers favor and if you can attack lower leveled players then they have no chance fighting back. It's basically always griefing and never acually leads to good and engaging battles. A better way to do it is to have certain end-game level zones where PvP is active. This way everyone is the same level and it's more fair.
@@puddingpop6058 It's not that fun to get killed in towns at super low level when you just start playing either. You have 0 chance to do anything about it.
I kinda disagree with the never acually leading to good engaging battles part. The pvp mmo's I grew up playing had most of the top guilds hunting down the pkers and stealing all their loot. We had so many huge wars with guilds allying one another and battling in zones all started over some guys pking lower levels to get on a pk list. You also lose exp in this game on top of all your hard earned loot, the punishments are harsh and it seems them made it way worse with the movespeed and player stat decreases.
Yes, this "dog piling" is permitted by design. The game is literally made to bully people. You can attack people who can't opt out and they even lose exp. It's literally the wet dream of every bully. This isn't some people exploiting, this is the games shit design
@@MajorJefferson hopefully when this game inevitably dies in the next month or so they’ll be able to reflect on this and learn from their mistakes for when the next game comes out. Nahhhh, who am I kidding they’re just gonna do the same thing and kill that game and then have the same complaints pointed at everyone else.
Griefers will always find a way to grief with which ever tools they have. Take away pvp and they'll grief in different ways knowing there's nothing you can do about it. All I'm saying is that pvp can be used to either grief or hold someone accountable for griefing. Pvp is just a tool and non consensual pvp is all a matter of how you use it.
I'm actually waiting for this game. then we got things like PVP on a level based system with TAB TARGETTING. I don't like pvp when it is not Skill based. I always play competitive games but it is SKILL BASED. I guess I will just wait for RiotMMO. They might make a MMO formula that will work unite all the mmo players.
every single fully open world pvp game... just constant being ganked. That has what happened everytime I tried one. They also die within a year usually a couple months.
@@csk3578 In BDO theres a system that makes it so that if your level 1-49 you are pve only but once you do an advancement quest (optional until you do it) you basically consent to world pvp with safe zone and combat zones to consider. The kicker with that is in order to advance story and content you have to do it meaning not doing it will lock you out of majority of the areas because the lower level you are you do less damage while mobs do more damage to you.
Having PvP always on doesn’t work for MMORPGs long-term; *New World* is a perfect example. Originally designed around open PvP, the game quickly saw players frustrated by constant ambushes, especially those focused on PvE. To keep a balanced player base, developers had to make PvP optional. Open PvP often leads to unbalanced gameplay and drives away casual players, so successful MMORPGs usually offer PvP as an option, allowing players to choose when to engage.
@@CookiesCatbug You mean the game with less players than New World right now?
11 วันที่ผ่านมา +2
Asmongold saying that any game with "non consensual PvP" will cannibalize itself and never be a mainstream game is unironically a 65 IQ take. WoW has non consensual PvP and it grew to be the most popular MMO while PvE MMOs like Star Trek Online, LOTRO etc are dead...
Open world PVP was the only reason I played WoW. Basically my "endgame", and I played for years. Oh, and I wasn't trying to "make people quit the game" when I killed them. Entire video is an L take by Asmon.
@noiosobear6284 but you're not doing pve. You're doing pvpve. If someone kills me in Halo while I'm trying to pick up a weapon or LoL while I'm farming creeps, do I get to say "waaah waaah i was just trying to do pve and get better items!" I mean do you get this mad in a single player game when it happens? Do you quit a Soulsborn game if you get unexpectedly killed?
8:14 This makes no sense. Elden Ring isn't a MMO, so the chatter made a bad comparison Also, pvp in Elden Ring is in fact consensual. By going co-op, you're essentially consenting to be invaded. This has been said and debated many times now If you don't want pvp in Elden Ring, there are 2 options: Download Seamless or disable online multiplayer (play solo)
@@popatsot1 Ignoring the rude comment below (or above me), he did say that. But I was referring to the chatter that asmon was responding to. If the chatter was basing it on the MMO side, then its a bad comparison. But if the chatter said any game, then yeah it opens the door for Soulsborne.
@brandondenny226 I can see you have nothing useful to say but you had to say something snarky anyway. Sill doesn't answer the question that the guy in stream asked. I acknowledge that he is talking about an MMO and this conversation should be on MMOs but that is not what he said. He should have brought up that different genres have different expectations, but he did not.
@@justanobody0 I tried WoW once with a friend, I did not like it. Honestly I'm not going to invest time in an MMO unless I really feel it has a strong future ahead and really enjoy playing it.
Restricting beginner zones isn't really a solution either, all that accomplishes is that it moves where/when the ganking will take place. Then you'd have people invest a few hours only to get relentlessly ganked at the edge of the intro-zone until they quit, and worse, they'd be doubly angry that their time invested was a waste in the first place. PvP-enabled zones shouldn't be the default, they should be the exception. OSRS Wilderness with a warning style is still the best compromise I've seen anywhere.
@@pvprangergod4024 Of course its a solution but you gotta keep in mind that 1. Asmongold is a streamer and part of his job is sharing his thoughts and likes with his comunnity, in this case ashes of creation 2. Asmongold is one of the biggest MMO streamers in north america, if he streams a game that game gets a lot of publicity 3. This isnt a situation where asmon gets mad because there are people with him, this is a situation where restarted dunce want to grief and harrass because they have nothing in their life that gives them more happiness than being a leech
Yeah, when I'm checking out a new MMO and I see that it has non-consensual pvp I just won't play it. Glad to know I can check Ashes of Creation off my list of games to check out.
I have been playing for 3 weekends now and have not been killed once by another player. As a player, you can't keep griefing. It will completely ruin you. You will be powerless after a while and loose all your gear. I understand that short term it seems like fun and it's an Alpha where your progress doesn't matter and you can ruin your character without much consequences because there will be server wipes. Once the game is released, this will be a completely different story.
@@magnav6797 for a time. But why fret over what they love? Its not important. Getting what I want is what matters. Maybe the rare 10% to 15% you can give a care about. But most of the time what they love isn't worth thinking about. That changes like the breeze so why chase the wind? Just take what you want.
Just level gate the PVP, make PVP open only for players within 5 levels of each other. Also PVP in towns is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in an MMO, no safe zones means no casual players and it makes trade jobs look unappealing.
That's the dumbest most easily exploitable idea ever. Let's say max lvl is 60, I make a guild of lvl 54 players specifically to avoid being able to be attacked by 60s, having free reign to raid their cities, their nodes, take their shit, etc, etc and they can't even interact with me.
@@MATCHLESS789 you got it wrong. obviously you will be flagged when interacting in such manner with opposite guild. Protection is for PK not for PVP . lineage 2 had 1 hour buff that you could get from npc for low lvl people . which was preventing people 10+ lvls from u to PK you , but if u flagged u could be killed by anyone. apart from making PVP and PVE servers separate this is good solution as well. not as extreme as each 5 lvl but till players reach end game content. and lets say if theres lvl 60 cap you could have protections till lvl 50 or 55 and there must be power difference lets say if there is siege lvl 50 people should not have enough power to take castle etc..
but with extreme penalty on PK believe me there wont be grieving. and PKing will be used tactically as it should be, without no random person getting targeted often. in Lineage 2 PK penalty was not this extreme but even there people didnt grieve , or whoever tried after 2-3 death their character was as good as lvl 1 with no gear deleveled just useless. it was extremly hard to clear your karma, it would take hours ( getting killed would remove it much faster but it would make you lose HOURS of progress each death, 1 pk could cost you 1 week of farm just purely in xp, not talking about if someone not your friend killed you and took items you dropped.) and to clear your karma well you had to farm in open world where every other person would see your RED name and kill you.
I love how modest Asmon is about his influence on the gaming market. I hope that he stays this open minded and reasonable when rating games 'cuz he's one of the very few sources I trust on.
This is the exact reason i never got into Rust. I was just wandering around, trying stuff out, and some guy rolled up with an rifle and killed me. I had zero gear or loot or any reason to get killed except i was obviously brand new. That same guy proceeded to hang around the place i was spawning in at and killed me two more times. Uninstalled the game and never played it again.
I mean I'm glad you enjoy it but it's not a widely enjoyed way of gaming. Thats why most (not all) full loot pvp games don't succeed. Its got an extreamly niche audience and if done poorly griefers like this can have a field day.
any open world PvP is always bad. all advantage on attacker and severe disadvantage when being the target... leave PvP for dedicated PvP zones and instances
By "pretty good open world PvP" you mean the 40 people that wait at the entrance of contested zones to gank and one shot you at the end of the loading screen? So good indeed
no it doesnt i have a hundreds if not a thousand odd hours logged on it. because of the open world pvp its made it all guild politics, and you really aint progressing without a guild unless you dont play anything but albion. apart from that the pvp is extremely unbalanced and anyone trying to solo is forced to use one of between 3-5 loadouts which sucks becase theres some really nice concepts when it comes to the weapon and armour progression system
There was a game called Ferentus about 15-20 years ago, one of the first MMORPG's when WoW came out, they did PvP right. You had specific leveling zones that were marked as PvP zones, and then when you reach a certain level you become open to PvP anywhere.
The current system as it is only prevents higher level players from PKing randomly. For lower level players (and insane enough people) this doesn't matter because you can make a new character... You have to be attached to your character for the law of the land to affect you. Its honestly a pretty decent idea from a game dev perspective but needs polish for sure.
I always loved the EvE online / Albion online approach, where the zones have tiers of "safety" and the deeper you go, the tougher it gets. For example, the highest tier zone is just full-loot Wild West.
I played an MMORPG called Tibia that came out in 1997. There was always on PVP and an extremely harsh death penalty. If you killed too many people you got what was called a "red skull" meaning you lost every item you had on your character on top of the already harsh exp loss. That system didn't do anything for the greifing or "power abuse". Ashes of Creation will be DOA if you cant opt out of PVP.
bdos open world pvp system in combination with limited grinding spots and the necessity to grind in those spots to be able to level single handedly made me quit the game and ruined all of the good parts of it for me.
You should create a series where you just keep on reviewing your self or from some one that reviews you or a topic that is related to you and pile it all in one so that way there's like a bunch of asmongolds on the screen reviewing each other.
@@australienski6687 It's exactly like Asmon said. There are people that get their joy from making others miserable in game so as long as there are shitty people it will never work. Not to mention if your punishment is so extreme that they actually don't do it then why have it at all?? It's pointless.
And this is why PvP games never last long. It's already dead, we all know it. All of the dev's efforts just evaporated for 90% of prospective players edit: I also find it funny people are citing shooters and moba's as reasons i'm wrong, but we all know those are very different things to MMO's, the cope is unreal.
PVP games are literally the most popular games in the world. Shooter games, league of legends, etc. So you're just plain wrong? Even WoW pvp servers were "non-consensual" pvp.
11 วันที่ผ่านมา +2
Asmongold saying that any game with "non consensual PvP" will cannibalize itself and never be a mainstream game is unironically a 65 IQ take. WoW has non consensual PvP and it grew to be the most popular MMO while PvE MMOs like Star Trek Online, LOTRO etc are dead...
PvP games are the most popular games in terms of viewership and often player numbers. This game was also designed as a PvP game, if you don't like PvP happening sometimes the game was simply not designed for you. It was never going to be a casual PvE MMO... It's like going into LoL then complaining it's not a PvE game. Just look at Twitch and the top viewership games. LoL, Val, GTA (GTA RP servers are PvP, likely more so than Ashes will be lmao.), Rust, CS2. Then you have minecraft/WoW with some PvP streamers before going back into PvP style games with CoD, Apex, Fortnight, Dota, Tarkov, streatfighter, Mario party and so many others. At least with livestreaming the majority of games people watch are PvP styled games with you killing or fiercely competing with other players. When you look at steam most of the top games are also PvP games along with mostly single player games with optional PvP. People love PvP when the game is good. Personally I don't like the way Ashes looks with it's combat and graphics so far so I'm not interested but PvP is not the issue. From what I seen the game is pure trash if you take out the PvP as it would kill all of it's unique features leaving mediocre combat and a bland world.
that is why i love pvp in osrs, there is the wildreness, high risk high rewards, you can pvp there... and the deeper you are the highest/lowest level can be attacked.
They should go the OSRS route and create PVP only zones with high risk and high reward, leave the other zones for PVE and optional PVP. I think that could work
I think that would be better..but I do have to admit that the wildly is one of the most hated areas in OSRS. Ashes also has its whole caravan system it would have to rework.
While I do like the OSRS style route I don't think it's even close to being a good idea in Ashes. The game was designed from the start to be a PvP community focused game. It won't be hardcore killing all the time and people are clearly going to be punished by game systems and maybe even the devs if they over do it but people will battle for resources, control over your region, and to steal caravans among other things. Without the PvP that happens in the world the game seems kinda bad to me. It's ok if the game is not designed for you, I personally love the idea of the game but I don't like the graphic style they went with and the combat looks horrible to me, at least when watching it and not playing it.
@@Shadow-bk1im That's what I would do. Then maybe have 2 or 3 pvp nodes and/or a resource rich pvp zone in each biome. This way there's a variety of pvp areas and circumstances but also a large amount of non-pvp areas. Heck, with Ashes node system it might be reasonable to have the Mayors elect pvp or not.
I once played a mobile mmo that had non-con pvp in the second area. Trolls that were 30 levels higher than you would hide out in narrow pathways of the second area to snipe you when you got near. You'd lose exp, and even drop in levels if enough exp was lost, and even could end up back at level 1 if you didn't stop to re-grind those levels up. The worst part was that when you hit a certain level, you stopped getting exp from monsters that were lower in level than you. I think the first area capped you at level 7 or something. And if you somehow made it into the third area, you had to walk past a huge fan-favorite pvp area where both sides would mistake you for the other, no matter how far out of the way you went to avoid the main conflict, and you'd die there. I never made it past level 12.
@@StreamerTH-cam it was called The World of Magic. I think it's still on the play store. I haven't played it in over a decade so idk if it's changed at all
@@MATCHLESS789 admittedly, I liked that you couldn't just grind low level mobs to just get max level, but you couldn't progress at all in the game with the trolls lurking. The starting area was maybe an hour's worth of gameplay, and you didn't even accomplish anything as far as I can remember. The game became entirely unplayable to new players after that.
It is such an easy solve. You are only able to attack others if you equip a special item. Equiping the item makes you guaranteed losing one or more item from your inventory or equiped items on defeet. You can attack anybody when wearing this item and anybody can attack you when you are wearing said item.
MMOs that want this feature need to change there entire design philosophy, makes no sense why pvp from start should be mmo skill & lvl dependent. They would need to make something almost like a tactical shooter.
Funnily enough, the only place where always on PvP works is in Anime where ppl play with Full Dive headgears. Where in order to kill someone you need to straight up outmanouver them even if they have level and item advantage
@@fleecyformula7365_Good point. Funny thing is, if they liked PvP so much they could just go for an FPS or a Fighting game._ _But like you said, they'll get wrecked there because of the difference in skill gap and how maneuvering is part of the gameplay versus the typically slower point and click gameplay of MMOs._
@@MWBalls Not really. I just think that Ashes takes it a little too far in one direction. There are ways to make it work. Allowing level one spawn camping isn't one of those.
The solution seems simple. Asmon said it. Just make PvP an optional toggle on login so the Ganks can run around consentually Ganking each other. There can also be certain areas in the game where PvP is mandatory. No need for a corruption mechanic at all.
The problem is get off on killing those unprepared for PvP. They don’t won’t to fight on equal footing. Shutting down others players and making them quit makes the griefers rock hard.
@@Dewulfi Then add PvP arenas. The people that are all abot PvP can and will meet there. What you are talking about is not the case, people are all about harassing people that don't want to play "their" game by surprising them, ganking them or otherwise disturb them in some way. THAT's what it is about for most people.
WTF did the developers think when they created this? "Let's just have unlimited PvP everywhere. Everyone loves PvP, right?" ... "Oh wait, some people are attacking other people, just for fun and ruining the fun for others? Nobody could have known that!" I have absoltely zero hope for this game to be any good.
did you miss the part where you essentially become a snail doing it? There are plenty of reasons for a system like this to exist, for example if you dont want to share something valuable with a bot or a noob who just started playing. Since the game is open world and has open world raid content as well it absolutely makes sense. This game from the very start never targetted WoW or FF14 players...
the game is already good in its alpha state. those griefers just want to be in an asmongold stream because he is litteraly one of the biggest game streamer and probably have a lot of people that hates him thats why they did this to him. you should try it and play. its already way better than new world when it was first released.
@@MeMelster Well in theory RL is also always pvp on People usually dont do it because they dont want to or there is no reason to. But they could if they wanted and as a result get severely punished. I mean i literally told you a reason: Bots. Some hero will sacrifice himself and slaughter all bots, gets punished for that but the rest of the player base will have a long cooldown until those bots come back and get readjusted to farming a spot. And you can never fully get rid of bots from a dev side. Edit: Now i personally would love to see a mixture of algorithm and player based court system like in Archeage for crimes.
@@TheRewindSession Also... Asmon will have a Sperg army following and protecting him anyway... Once the game actually goes live he will have sentinels with best gear around him 24/7 just like in WoW. Sure some AdvertiseSP might sneak through every now and then, but thats content for him...
Gotta love devs that are going around sanctioning people when this type of behaving is fault of bad game-play mechanics. If you do not want open world pvp than you do not design gameplay for open world pvp...
it reminds me of people who say they want communism... and then they see what communism actually is. They do not understand that their idealistic views are not the norm. If there is a way to exploit a system to make other people miserable people will do it just for that reason regardless of punishment barring something that would hurt them in real life financially or physically.
Exactly! This video honestly made me lose hope for AoC. If they don't understand this very basic concept, then how are they gonna make the rest of the game fun?
They police "griefing" on a personal case to case too. If the dev doesn't like your face, it's bullying, if you are a funny Chad - it's forced pvp game design and fine.
PK'ing has been around for a while, its not a new concept, but you are right, there are some areas that should not have PvP allowed in them because ( think Eragon books where magic was used to dull the blade) I don't think they should remove it completely because then it will break the immersion it has created. having the option to opt out of PVP by holding some trinket maybe?
Yeah, not going to lie I was thinking about getting this game but. I work a job where I wake up at 5:00 and come home at 7:00. If I want to play a video game and I'm only greeted to being constantly grieved; I wouldn't want to play that game. I'm better off playing a single player, but good luck trying to find a good single player game nowadays.
Plenty. I have never touched mmo in my life. Even backlog of games i missed since ps1 era. Thousands of great single player games are waiting to be played. Currently playing refantazio.
If there is one single thing that can ruin ANY game, then it is Open PvP. There is a reason why it basically doesnt exist anymore in any game, except on PvP servers of survival games like Ark or Conan. If thats how it is, the game is DOA.
@@matthewmammothswine4395 thats crazy i remember in albion that pvp was only on in certain zones and gave you a warning before venturing into those areas
@@Dead_Goat Technically. Eve is PVP everywhere. Just in high security space.. you are going to get the NPC law enforcement on you pretty quick. Which is why it ends up mostly happening in zero sec space.
As a vanilla wow player from when it came out, I enjoyed wows pvp servers. It didn't happen much until you hit hillsbrad. Plus, the horde/alliance members were very noticeable.
My stance on map-wide open PVP is that it should be a separate server option because of how strong it's impact on the gameplay loop is. Outside of that, I would be fine with opt-in pvp (like souls games), or very punishing pvp drawbacks that impact the player (dropping loot, losing gold, losing experience, being banned from towns, not being able to use certain systems etc.) because I don't mind getting killed a few times a day, the problem is literally being hunted down by a mob of hundreds of players eating all your playtime and splitting the drawback to a negligible amount.
Well you'll be happy to know that the game already has very punishing pvp drawbacks like dropping loot and huge stat dampening. What happened to asmongold happens to literally nobody else in the alpha right now. You almost never see non-consensual pvp because it is too punishing for the aggressor.
@user-yk6hv6hj3p yeah but like I said in the last part, it still needs polish to deal with big ganks, since it seems the drawbacks apply in a way that allows 99 people to get away and only one to be punished. I would go even further and say the player that was killed should get a benefit counteract it, or otherwise, get a bonus agains the killer to make a back to back fight greatly detrimental to the OG killer and make it so the killed can take revenge. That could even turn non consensual PVP into a community activity like it is in souls games (though ofc, all of this is my top of the head bandaid, a team should actually sit and brainstorm what solution fits the most)
@@miles3101 yeah I mean there's a lot of stuff not in the game yet and there's still a lot of testing ahead. The guys making the game know that pvp isn't for everybody but won't budge on it being in the game because it is absolutely integral to the way that resources and power will be distributed throughout the world and playerbase. They are definitely anti-griefing and are doing what they can to combat issues that were more prevalent in other games with pvp. It will just take time to balance, and also time for the actual pvp event systems to be incorporated into the alpha to keep the pvpers busy. But to be perfectly honest, I've had almost no contact with pvp or even seen any in about 100 hours of playing.
I don't really have any issues with open world PvP. Most people generally won't just randomly start killing you without reason. That being said, you should not lose XP for another player killing you, regardless of if you are in combat or not. I also never thought about it before, but streaming in games like this seems impossible. BDO open world PvP was fun because it never felt like people randomly just started going at it, if I was grinding mobs in a favorable area and someone started encroaching on my spot, we're going at it. My friends and I were doing something one time and we ended up getting in fight that traveled across half of one of the regions. For me, it creates a lot of fun and memorable moments.
Good point. Corruption won't stop players from just denying you the ability to even level. It creates a wall that lower level players, won't be able to surmount.
Add Kill Bounties And Protect Bounties, The more often a player gets killed the larger their protect bounty is. Could also integrate protect bounties with a built in guard system, So if you guard a player with a protect bounty you will could have your HP or shield/armor linked to them, This way rondos won't be able to walk up an one shot your protect target. Could also work like dark souls where if a player you are defending is attacked then you get summoned to their location. Perhaps the shared hp/shield only lasts for a portion of time and after you teleport to save them it slowly starts to dissipate. But renews each time a new PVP attacker joins. Basically, if they can implement systems that reward players for defending others from pvp without making the people defending players feel like they need to waste time doing nothing but following around a rando who might not get attacked. Then they could have a nice counter balance that works out.
You can't just have open world pvp + exp reduce per death + item drop when you get killed and being forced even on a fucking town or level 1 creation map xd. Haven't we learn anything from MU online? Plenty of rats going to be on level 1 zones killing newbies
MU was different. Killing random players were heavily penalized, and taking out other killers rewarded. Your character didn't drop items unless you already had PK status. Also pretty much every map had a safezone where you teleported before entering the PVP area. Personally it had my favorite mmo pvp system, i still remember the player organized PK police groups after 15+ years.
You only drop items if you're the one doing the killing with people not fighting back. The game is in alpha, and safe zones haven't been put in the game yet. Importantly, literally nobody else has had the experience that asmongold had. People just killed him because he's asmongold. The developers have said for a long time that griefing will be actionable. The people that did this got banned. I've played for about a hundred hours and haven't been killed once. Frankly, asmongold doesn't know anything about how the pvp in the game is functioning right now for normal players, and is saying a lot of crap that is just not true.
I think the second alpha added the meaning to Ashes of Creation. Like, the player base will be ganked out of the game until the game die and turn to ash. Edit: Joke aside, either make so starting area has PvP off, or add a minimum player level to enable PvP. Those are my only ideas to solve that mess.
If you base your opinion of the game on what happened to a streamer who is notorious for getting killed in pvp games for laughs then you are making a mistake. Most people who are playing the alpha almost never see any pvp. The punishment for killing players is currently extremely brutal.
The game is a scam... it will never finish and launch before it becomes outdated and obsolete. It already looks "old" compared to next-gen MMOs and the development is 4 years from a launch point.
this game already have 100 thousand or more player playing it every weekend and its still in an alpha state. and its increasing since it release almost a month ago. imagine this on its actual release.
I still play a game to this day that has thousands online at any given time. And has worse penalties than that for dying. With full open world PvP. And it's been out nearly 30 years. So you're just wrong.
@@grimnar6725 So you quite literally didn't watch the video, nor listen to what Asmon said here: 7:35. What he said was entirely true and has happened to a plethora of forced PvP games that otherwise would have been acceptable by today's standards and still played. Not some generic, "who?" game that barely scrapes a thousand players.
@@Very_Bord wasnt wow vanila like this with its world pvp? man i remember questing on westfall and getting gank for hours but i didnt beitch about it. and i even think that thats what made wow vanila the best mmo to ever exist because of its world pvp. retail wow now is sheyt becuse people just stay in the city and que for adungeon. asmon complaining about pvp sounds like he probably only played in a pve realm lmao.
@@Very_Bord totally irrelevant to my comment. I was responding to this OP who said it was a terrible game mechanic and would have 5 players weeks after launch. Wow at its prime had 10 million+ active subs and most of its servers had open PvP. So .... What's your point cupcake? People that didn't want to PvP had the "normal" servers. But just because they didn't want to hurt fragile ego's we both know those servers weren't the "normal" intended gameplay experience for a game based on a war between the factions. Lol
15:30 I think this is his point though. People will see how you're treated and will be turned off by the game likely because it's possible it can happen to them too. Of course it won't be to nearly as bad of a degree, but your viewers just watched the possibility turn reality.
@@Dead_Goat consider myself the average player and my experience was nothing like Asmongolds - I dropped in did the early quests and shuffled off to my guilds chosen node without a single pvp death, played all weekend and didn't get PKd once. Normal people have the defense of anonymity, no one is just killing random low levels. People were killing Asmon because it was Asmon.
@@Jordancommenter That's weird, I guess my name was no one back in wow then. Because I used to do that a lot. Getting honor can barely be called a reward. The reward is the grief it causes the other player. Also, it's not like I was the only one doing that.
Having a game that's full on pvp with NO starter zone that's essentially a safe zone for brand new fresh characters is so ass backwards and this game is essentially already dead.
I know AoC is suppose to be a pvp mmorpg, but you are right. It is completely ridiculous that as soon as you log into the game on a lvl 1 character you can be killed. That doesn't allow fostering new players to play.
open world persistent pvp games are the most toxic shit ever, there always the stomping ground of the 24/7 terminally online no'lifers, their goal isnt to win its to make people miserable because thats their idea of fun, you gotta have defined pvp zones
@@windumaster14 and incredibly correct. The goal of the PKers is always, without exception, to harass and grief their victims till they uninstall the game. Then they start wondering why nobody plays anymore.
I agree, BUT this game is still in alpha or pre-alpha. So the PvP in towns thing may very well be changed. You can do solo play, it's just slower and harder. You know, like how in classic WoW you could do solo play but group play was more efficient.
Asmon is absolutely right that it's not a streamer problem, i'm a nobody and it already happened to me a couple of times. The only difference is that i don't have a direct channel to Steven, so i have two options, accept it or quit the game... Which i think is sad, considering i really like the game so far, but this feature alone, may be enough for me to not play it in the future.
What happened? You logged in and people made new characters to intentionally grief just you? I've played like 100 hours and had nothing of the sort happen.
@user-yk6hv6hj3p nah, no level 1 camping, however it has happened a couple of times.. The most recent one, was last weekend where I was aoe farming with two other guys I randomly met out in the open, then suddenly this almost 10 level higher dude, ganked us while we were in the middle of a pull.. When that happened a 3rd time, we were prepared for him, so we turned on him and chased him down.. And then 10 minutes later, his pathetic guild mates (including an almost max level mayor on flying mount) came in and obliterated us.. The mobs in the area, were too low level for him to be of any use to him.. So it was obviously just an idiot who wanted to ruin the enjoyment for the rest of us. I completely understand that it's part of the game, that's why I said one of my only two options would be to quit the game, since I personally don't enjoy it..
@@Loopmootin Look, I don't really agree that this is comparable to the griefing that asmongold had to deal with, but I can understand that you don't find stuff like that very fun. What I would say to somebody like you though, is that you've obviously already bought into the alpha, so you have plenty of time to really make up your mind and there will be a lot of iterations of pvp rules and also many many more systems and zones etc added, that I believe will draw the attention of people who enjoy pvp away from these kinds of interactions. Not completely of course, but I think the developers are acutely aware of peoples feelings towards pvp and how they differ from one another. They do really believe that having pvp in the game is essential to fully realise their vision though, and I have to agree with them. My advice is, lean into it and maybe try a few different methods of dealing with stuff like this during the alpha. You can always keep a list of people that wrong you and find ways to screw them over later on. It doesn't have to be you coming out on top when you get attacked. If I was in this guild I would be embarrassed if people knew that I needed my mayor to come and save a member who was doing that to people. Reputation matters, and if they do those kinds of things to enough people, they will get theirs. And if you really don't like pvp, the world will be huge, and I'm sure there will be remote corners where few players will be, where you can live a more peaceful life. Time will tell.
@user-yk6hv6hj3p obviously it's not a one to one comparison... Asmon said that the problem with not being able to unflag for pvp is that there will be people who will abuse the system and their sole purpose will be to ruin the fun for other players... Thought it was completely obvious, that I didn't mean I had 100 people running around killing me at level one.. Of course I didn't have that, I was talking about the system in general
@@Loopmootin problem is, asmon only has a passing interest in this game and a lot of stuff that he says isn't entirely accurate. So he'll put out a video of that happening to him in an unfinished alpha and not be able to explain to people that intrepids stance on griefers is to action them. If people make accounts and characters for the sole purpose of doing stuff like that, then they will just get banned. Now the issue is, in said video, almost everyone who watched it and commented basically says the game is DoA and they would never play anything like that where you can get spawn camped and griefed all day etc. It's an inaccurate representation of the average players experience to the extreme, and something that the company has repeatedly said they will actively mitigate. Time will tell I guess.
Non-consensual pvp is essentially in place in games like Lineage 2 to promote fighting over resources/spots. In games like WoW, you are basically screwed if a bot or random party comes into your farming area with the ability to tag faster than you. In L2, you'd either be forced to fight for that spot, or the person could have the option of going nuclear and PK'ing you to stake their claim. It takes away the carebear aspect of MMO's. Clans/Alliances will battle eachother for the best farming spots on the map, making a simple 1v1 over a farm area quickly turn into a 50vs50 all out war for the next 12 hours.
that's impossible even in theory, there's never just 2 players and one can always leverage an advantage, such as when you're low hp or have no cooldowns from fighting pve. The only solution is a pvp off switch. If people can't find that in the game, they'll find the uninstall button instead and your game is now dead. The rules of MMO world pvp: 1. never start a fight you can't win. 2. always start a fight when you know winning is certain. 3. the reward isn't loot, it's making them log out. This is WPVP, your enemy is the person and the game is your weapon, in-game punishments are a badge of honor, not a deterrent. Strikes are stripes on their shoulders, every ban is a medal.
The Elden Ring/Souls games all have op in PvP. You have to either turn it on, or have friends in your game. It doesn't just "happen" without other choices being made. Also, you can freely play single player to level all the way up before taking on those options. No one can simply "force" their way into your single player farm experience if you are trying to relax for the night.
I think one solution the devs could use is also putting a reverse corruption system on players who are frequently PK'd without consent. If the player is constantly targeted by bad actors, the amount of corruption inflicted per attack dramatically increases. Call it innocence aura, or something - and the player's innocence resets to 0 if they kill another player who isn't PvP active. So that means haha funny moments for the first several deaths, but eventually anyone attacking the streamer while they aren't flagged instantly get hit with a super high tier corruption. It can even be indicated by an on-screen notification when attacking them. Also, if the player has blight or something similar, they can't gain innocence, etc. A balance.
Glad you enjoyed my video Asmon. I’m hoping your next experience in Ashes of Creation goes a lot better as it wasn’t the average one for sure
Good farm, buddy.
@@Nifava he's an ashes content creator covering pretty much only ashes - he's a good guy and not really a farm like others would do it
Idk seems to me like asmond did experience the average gameplay a person can expect.
i thoght it was an actual drama video, not a nerd talking about mmos the whole time. fail
@@Jordanbiggs1473your thoughts have failed you.
"the asmongold drama" Bro which one
I was just going to say this. hahahaha
Whichever one it is, society will be doomed if there isn’t one on the horizon
Fr like bro is always at the front of controversial stuff, why we love it 😂😂😂😂
This one, funny guy
Get in the line 😂
the asmongold drama situation is insane and gets worse and is crazy
Thought I was smoking for a sec hey bro.
New video content, though.
Crazy and insane situation is nuts and mad and really deranged!
Bruh
You won’t believe it guys, the anarchis has set his sights on asmongold. We are about to get a nuclear escalation like never before🤓
"the asmongold drama"
"Get in line with rest of [the asmongold drama] pal"
D4's Last chance: FINALLY A WORTHY OPPONENT!
If you want a true sandbox where you can fight over resources and castles then you need non consensual
Pvp
The drama which in turn will be farmed for clicks & views.
Nothing can even slow the balding one down.
Asmon called the palastines an inf*rior culture i am 100% aginst hamss but you cant just say that about a culture...
@@dudaz_music You understand PvP sandboxes :)
Yeah, if the devs don't want this game to die they need to start working on solutions to this kind of stuff right away, They might have a vision for how their game is supposed to be played but their vision wont matter if casuals drop the game and the studio gets closed
they should make a poll inside the game. Maybe the PVP peeps are just a VOCAL minority.
Simple if I report someone then they are permanently banned , or turn off PVP on the fly
They are already, Asmongold misrepresented and simplified AoC's proposed PvP system in a way which supported this narrative. His description of "pvp only allows for griefing" applies to Vanilla WoW, not this.
There's a counter balance for non consensual pvp in AoC, which is punitive in nature. Opposite of WoW, which rewards PvP points, incentivizing.
Any time someone considers ganking another player, they must weigh in the potential benefits vs the penalties. Think of it as a more robust evolution of Runescape's wilderness pvp. AoC pvp is nothing new, it already exists and is a tried and tested formula.
They have solutions for this stuff
@@gr33dl0cknein3 What are these penalties? I know nothing of this game, but I've played RS, and know getting "skulled" is absolutely not enough of a punishment. EDIT: Ok it was shown later in the video. I suppose that's a bit better, although I'm still not sure that's enough.
Forced pvp inside towns is wild. Even fantasy animes state that
😂😂😂
Reminds me of UO.. where you could PK in town.. but if the guy yelled guards... welp ;p
forced pvp ? im out of this game sir.
Wild to those terrible at PvP and butt hurt streamers.
Sounds cool
Ultima Online does it best. If you kill anyone, your name turns red and noone is punished for attacking you. Basically a huge target on your back for free kills / gear while at the same time warning 'weaker' players to run away before getting into a fight.
Same in Red Dead Online, plus you become visible in the map from much farther away. It works pretty well for those wanting to avoid grifters and those wanting to punish them.
I remember becoming so annoying when I teleported using the gate Portal and there is 5 guys waiting for me right there.😅
Same in lineage 2
Someone tell Steve
This is the problem with people on the sidelines. I played for 40hours and wasn't ganked once. Stick to WoW
The person who used Elden Ring as an example is just wrong as it is situational pvp, the system works in a way that you can invade but the odds are stacked against you, and people can play offline if they don't want to deal with it
I mean hell WoW had situational pvp as well; I can't even think of a game which has forced pvp and that says a lot, ergo its not popular
That’s why he didn’t even respond to it, I hope most players realize that using the online play items means… you’re online and eligible to be invaded lol
@@glitchasaur Someone did use EVE as an example but in its case the PVP is a massive part of the game so it falls under a different context.
The other major difference is that elden ring is 100% consensual.
You don't even have to play off line, pvp is 100% activated by the player getting invaded.
You choose if you want that to be a function, and you're entirely aware of it happening.
It's not even a continuous thing, you moment to moment specifically open yourself up to the opportunity of being invaded. By activation of a finger or a summon, you're deliberately choosing consensually to have an invade occur.
And it is an extremely healthy community game state. It doesn't have the same toxicity or griefing ganking ideology, because of its design, it is in an extremely healthy community design intent functional state
@RickyT15 fair actually, EVE probably is the outlier there as Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen opted to have a multiplayer and single player mode
the fact the ganker at the start hides perfectly behind the rock from asmonds camera angle is so good
Literally hitman
@@namenight7158 Basic CS 1.6 play from Goldeneye PvP dating back to wolfenstein 3d first conceived on a Donkey Kong ladder.
@@skeetorkiftwondonkey Kong? Can you translate to English please? I dont mind reading.
@gregg6398 Donkey Kong is a game from 1981. Space invaders might be an even better reference to hiding behind a rock.
they will fix it!!!
I assumed the world PvP would be 'When out in the wilds you might be jumped - but that player gains a bounty as a result.' Not 'Max level player camps the spot where new players spawn - calls you no fun if you don't enjoy it.'
how rich kids view communism vs how communism actually is.
The former.
If high level players are camping low level areas they will lose all their gear really quickly.
@@justinwhite2725 nobody high level would be in starter zones when the game is on its run.
@@ToMaSsS10 oh sweet summer child, you obviously never experienced joys of WoW open world "PvP" where favorite past time of max level players was raiding other sides starting zones and not only stomping characters that literally couldnt harm them but also wreck zones quest givers and utility NPCs so that the newbies LITERALLY couldnt progress at all...
Read and learn before you talk about something you dont understand.
A system admin spamming the message "leave the bald one alone" at players so they leave a streamer alone is such a 2024 thing. If that happened back in the old days I'd freak tf out, like wtf is happening am I cursed or something or did I hit a friendly NPC lmaooo
Makes me feel old when you say that. Like in Morrowind when you kill an important NPC in the game and a "With this character's death..." message pops up on your screen and makes you feel like you screwed up big time
"With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Load a new game, or persist in the doomed world you have created?"
How is that a 2024 thing? I feel like that's a return to early MMOs back when there were actual GMs who also interacted with players from time to time and even made mini/random events happen.
@@1ProAssassin Right! I remember getting to know certain ones and even being on friendly terms with them. There were some who even hung out in the in-game nightclubs on certain nights. (There we're players with DJ characters who would also play music IRL on a streaming channel most of us who frequented the clubs would listen in on which added a whole other layer to it. I've seen that in other MMOs as well.)
@@1ProAssassin how many open pvp mmo's have you played?
They should add a Bounty system where highly aggressive players who target low level characters and grief will incur a bounty, thus allowing other players that choose not to grief can get rewards/XP from killing the griefers.
Seems like it would be a really easy system to abuse/exploit for profit, which almost incentivizes spawn-camp grief'ing. The greater the reward for killing someone with a bounty, the more incentive guilds (or just friend groups with no official connection in game) have to run that bounty up, farming it for XP/gear/currency, where they take turns being the griefer and the bounty hunter.
There's a reason we've never seen a mainstream full-loot pvp MMO; there are just too many ways to ruin the experience for new players and drive the player count into the dirt. Now we have the issue of streamers on top of it, and that's yet another variable to solve for... I give this game 6mo (tops) after it's official launch before they make pvp opt-in or create a pve server.
@@mfallen2023 very simple solution - a player loses 3 items, and his hunter gets 1-2 lost items of the victim. There is no point in abuse such a system :)
I hate casuals who cry about open pvp in mmorpgs.
@@schwarzbrecht7624 then they'll just have the designated dude kill the level 1s while naked
@@bigfunguss83 And who cares exactly who the potential ‘outlaw’ killed? The hunter who kills him will be rewarded with 1 of the 2-3 items dropped from the ‘outlaw’.
@@mfallen2023 There will be no problems if you don't generate rewards out of thin air. The griefer will drop their items and money and get into debt, or part of the items would even get destroyed, so it's less than 100% return rate. The corruption effects become long-term and exponential. Obviously this also needs to go with strict multi-account regulations so you can't just extract value out of throwaway accounts.
"Leave the bald one alone" Lmao
That had "Leave Britney alone" vibes lol
@@Chibipayneleave baldy alone 😭
That's a solution for game mechanics, not game moderators.
follicly challenged
Asmon called the palastines an inf*rior culture i am 100% aginst hamss but you cant just say that about a culture......
Never seen a more literal "spawn camping" than in this game lol.
even the other dude this was a one of...hahaha who is he kidding.this will happen all day everyday.
To experience true camping I recommend DbD (like 3 years ago).
Random non-developer amateur gamers immediately spoke up and said: I'm not a smart man, but there gonna be spawn camping here.
Game developers: we do not think that will be an issue.
Might as well call it "creation camping"
If I purchase/log in in a brand new game, and I get griefed by tryhards in starting zones, I IMMEDIATELY refund/uninstall a game. Doesn't matter how good a game looks / plays, how much time it took to make.
If I come home after a long day at work and just want to grind some mobs but I am not allowed to do so because some "people are like that and they enjoy PvP and griefing people", they can grief each other until the whole game dies, i will take no part in such an "experience".
So like Rust. Somehow he liked that game
@@Rokaz666 rust is a fundamentally different game.
Shocking. Pvp game has pvp players.
@@trebot9292266yes lvl 50 vs lvl 20 is pvp😂😂😂
Skill issue
Asmongold missed the point Steven highlighted for why non-consenual PVP exists and it's the same reason as Archeage.
It's not there to grief people hence the extreme punishments, it's there to fight over limited resources. If someone's in your gathering spot do you kill them gather and run away before their guild gets there? If someone's trying to take your dungeon grinding spot do you kill them to get the spot? If someone's doing a trade run and you kill them to take their shit, that's also worth it.
He's missing what people can gain from murdering others so he see's it as "Well the only person that would do this would be to grief someone for no reason" when there would be actual, tangible benefits to doing so.
Archeage was garbo that died for a reason. And no, it was not because of publisher mishandling.
@@Gungrave123 couldn't be because of p2w either, right?
why make it so you can get killed by another player the milisecond you spawn in that seems very stupid. theres a reason why there isnt world pvp in the starting zones for each class in wow.
considering its in Alpha, its extremely likely they will make that change.
There could be a countdown. once you teleport, 20s or once it moves no dmg can be taken. easy.
@@matthewmammothswine4395 Even before the game is coded you would think they would think of that in the design phase.
devs forgot to put in safe zones for the test
Because they're unexperienced. They never created an MMO in their lives. I refuse to believe they have any professional experience regarding that. Or even basic Multiplayer Game Design knowledge, for that matter
Story of every PVP MMO is PVPers kill PVEers usually in the most unfair ways possible. PVEers bitch about it and get told "This is a PVP game! Go play some care bare game!" PVEers say "ok" and leave. 10 years later PVPers talk about how great that game was and they can't believe it died after 6 months.
every single time
sounds like a skill issue
You're really just copy/pasting this all over, huh? Being on a PvP server is a choice that the vast, vast majority of WoW players don't make.
@@hmp01 Yea, yours. If you were smart you'd know how to PvP and also keep your game alive.
Yeah idk how Asmon can say that when WoW had the worst non-consensual PvP system - faction based PvP.
I assume AoC basically directly copied the early version of Lineage 2's PK system and it's going to be super punishing to constantly PK non-flagged players. It's literally a self-grief to PK players in Lineage 2 most of the time, because anyone experienced enough will just keep coming back to try to kill you and you will be froced to either keep PK'ing or run away, change exp spot and try to remvoe your corruption points.
I love how universal is this "non consensual pvp" problem. When I look back at our old Ultima Online server for 10-50 players, if there was one thing that could destroy the community, it was exactly that. In my experience, MMO will always have more people engaging in PvE content, than PvP one. And if you get your PvE enjoyers murdered by a "griefer" because PvP is not optional, you will lose your PvE players. ALWAYS.
i used to play tibia alot half a decade ago. it has open pvp. and those servers worked pretty well.
@@marcosdhelenoconsidering I've never heard of that game before it my life it mustn't have worked that well, lmao
Dark Souls players: *Bites lip so hard it starts to bleed
If there is no penalty for murderhobos etc, well it's not a immersing game anymore.
@Klongu_Da_Bongu DS series isn't as open world as a mmo and u have the option to turn off pvp....I do understand the closeness of the topic
When first starting, there should be a level discrepancy based timer to reduce frequency of grief ganks.
If someone is significantly higher level and just one shotting everyone at spawn, there should be a timer on that person's ability to repeat a kill, to allow the lower level player the opportunity to regain their lost XP and avoid going into XP debt entirely.
The higher level you become the shorter your timer, until level ~20 or whatever and the timer entirely drops off and it's all open PvP.
A community will literally never grow if new players are unable to move from spawn because some Dorito fingers has been camped out there since launch.
Asmon is right. Regardless how bad the punishment is, if there is a way to grief people will do it.
So what? It's a game, ffs.
@@MATCHLESS789L take.
@@MATCHLESS789 because then people leave ... then gankers leave because they are bored ... then the game dies ...
proper solution is having dedicated PvP zones and instances
@@MATCHLESS789 So griefers are a minority of people who are able to tank the fun of a much larger number of people, people then stop playing the game, because as you rightly say "it's a game, why the f should I waste my time being grief-fodder". Leads to player decline and eventually there's basically no game left, ffs
sounds like the game is simply not for you guys. do you complain about turn-based games being turn-based, too?
No safe zones? Not even new player spawn point?
Not a bright future for this one.
yep this game is dead on arrival.
High level player are gonna reach a point we're they've done everything so gathering a group of friends to create a massacre it's gonna be a source of entertainment.
It's an alpha, except if they do the blizzard way... They will add some safe zone and all. This game will be out in 2027 or 2028 anyway.
Griefing is a ban-able offense
@@yotuel9064 in return other groups/guilds will be motivated to fight people like that off
I hate non voluntary PVP, absolutely kills a game before it ever gets a solid player base. Just watching what happened to Asmon I don't ever want to try this game.
i have ZERO interest in game with that "feature" i have had enough of unfair ganking in decades of playing WoW to last me a lifetime...
Especially since you lose most of your exp when you're getting ganked.
Naaah man, I'm not even gonna bother trying this garbage "game" either.
I grew up with these types of games and they can be a lot of fun. Asmons situation isnt the norm but this will happen to any streamer of decent size.
What you and Asmon don't seem to comprehend is the possibility of the corruption system being so severe that this wouldn't be a big issue. You are closed to this possibility, when past games were not severe enough with their own corruption systems.
One of the many issues with Archeage too.
This is why I think games like Aion did it well. With Aion, you pick one of two sides and start out in a strictly PvE environment for your side. Then, as you get up in levels, you move into PvE areas where portals will sometimes open allowing people from the opposing faction entering your PvE map and vice versa. Putting level caps on the portals so that the players are level appropriate for that particular map. Then, once you near max level, you enter an area that is shared with the opposing faction. While the two factions enter this last area at opposite ends, it's all pretty much accessible for both sides. The game is advertised as PvPvE. Even the last area has both sides competing taking control of multiple strongholds where control is obtained, not by killing the other faction, but by taking on open world raid bosses.
We the people need a Asmongold drama tier list
This going to be juicy if done. 😂 Cuz man, it's gonna be A LOT. One for example was when he reacted the Heelvsbabyface and Actman Drama. He was incredibly biased for Actman who was in the wrong.
Do it as a 2024 recap and farm the views
Heeey that’s my thumbnail at the top there 😂 Keep up the good work man. 👍🏻
I was just watching one of your videos and you followed me over lol
Great to see you here man!
Asmon called the palastines an inf*rior culture i am 100% aginst hamas but you cant just say that about a culture...
Hi metatroooon
@@davidboi4025 do you have to agree with everything someone has ever said to consider his overall work good? In this case it's even something where he publicly apologized and went back on.
It's like everyone forgets that WoW was the first game back in the 2000s that got rid of non-consensual pvp. Also, WoW ended up being the biggest MMO ever during that time. I think pvp clearly had a factor in that.
Couple the fact that PvP servers always die out and you kinda get the idea
Heck Everquest had opt-in PVP but in their case they handled it by server. As Ludwig replied those servers were usually the first to die out.
@@LudwigVaanArthans maybe because the game has no incentive to play this PvP in open world? Is it that the game rewards you more for pve rather than pvp?
Lineage 2, Black Desert, Albion Online, EVE Online, Tibia, and the legendary Ultima Online- pvp mmo's have big public aswell.
WoW lacks many open-world PvP incentives but there are still some, and I have many friends who loved to do open-world PvP before the introduction of flying mounts. The issue isn't if there are incentives, the issue is that if there is a mechanic in a game, someone will abuse it, and if that issue is at the detriment of others, the long-term health of the game, or themselves, people will still do it.
The point of AoC isn't about money, instead, it is about creating a game for the fans of MMORPGs, which number in the tens of millions. EVEs active pop hasn't gone over 400k in the last year, BDO hasn't gone over 500k, Albion over 180K, Lineage 2 over 180k... so forth and so on. In total all these open-world PvP-reliant games haven't had a combined active yearly pop of over 2 million. WoW Classic had an active population of over 6 million so we know there are a lot of people who want to play MMORPGS. If AoC really wants to achieve its' goal of being the next big MMORPG that caters to the full spectrum of the MMORPG audience and has a truly massive active world of engaged players, they need to make sure they don't have systems that let players shoot themselves in the foot for the fun of it and harm the larger audience just so a smaller few can have their own fun.
Hey look at that, Metatron was the first video suggestion at the start
Asmongold is correct about games with non-consensual PvP. They become much smaller populations that spend time beefing with each other rather than growing the audience. If it's in the game at launch, the game is DOA.
Yeah you are correct. Games I played in the past even though they had penalties, the entire time was spent dealing with drama between players rather than playing the game which became tiresome. New players get killed once, then they are corrupted by the toxicity especially younger players.
Yep, I refuse to even try playing a game like this any more. Its the exact opposite of fun if you're not 12 living with your parents and have 20 hours a day to grind.
Helldivers 2 is starting to get this way too. I dropped into a game and the host started blasting everyone in a mech, and if you didn't drop would kick you which means you're still in the mission it's just a solo mission now. Still got that extraction but I set the game down for a few days afterwards.
explain wow then
The devs seem hell-bent on introducing so many punitive features.
I'm not sure where the fun comes from any of it. MMO's over two decades old understood the balance.
The one thing that I won't ever understand is creating a forced PvP game with the intent to encourage the player to do PvP while punishing the player for doing PvP.
The Option and the thrill of it.
Same as in RL... its easy to kill someone and make big Money with Crimes but normal People dont do it.
makes sense murderers are often flagged in real life too
There's PvP and there's griefing.
The one thing that I won't ever understand is playing a PvP game to only attack level 1 people when you're level 13+ with no challenge and no benefit.
Thanks. Also blows my mind. They should just play the simpsons “HA HA” sound effect so you know you’re being trolled by the dev AND the player griefing you.
I think the problem is that a player shouldn't be ganked by a higher level player as soon as they load into the game, it's against ToS. Can't even do this in Eve without getting banned.
The insane situation is crazy.
The rat carcass for an alarm clock guy has had a rat carcass for an alarm clock, guys!!!
Ah yes the Water is wet
It's crazy how insane the situation is.
Ah, fire-the world’s way of saying, ‘Hey, let’s take everything you own and add a bit of warmth.’ So thoughtful!
Wait until it gets nuts.
They should just make "Auto Flag Zones" and keep it a flag system. That way people don't get cherrypicked-banned and allows for people to avoid the zones or take the risk of entering the zones for the better loot/etc.
Open world non-consentual PvP rarely works that well. It's almost always in the attackers favor and if you can attack lower leveled players then they have no chance fighting back. It's basically always griefing and never acually leads to good and engaging battles. A better way to do it is to have certain end-game level zones where PvP is active. This way everyone is the same level and it's more fair.
Its more fair and less fun, if you play the game thats giving consent imo.
@@puddingpop6058 It's not that fun to get killed in towns at super low level when you just start playing either. You have 0 chance to do anything about it.
@MeldinX2 i agree there should be safe zones
I kinda disagree with the never acually leading to good engaging battles part. The pvp mmo's I grew up playing had most of the top guilds hunting down the pkers and stealing all their loot. We had so many huge wars with guilds allying one another and battling in zones all started over some guys pking lower levels to get on a pk list.
You also lose exp in this game on top of all your hard earned loot, the punishments are harsh and it seems them made it way worse with the movespeed and player stat decreases.
@@Arthur_Grey34 And every single one of them was a hyper-niche game, if we're being honest with ourselves.
they got mad about being banned for attacking someone of preferential treatment, but they're alright with targeted harassment (dog piling) ?
Yes, this "dog piling" is permitted by design. The game is literally made to bully people. You can attack people who can't opt out and they even lose exp. It's literally the wet dream of every bully.
This isn't some people exploiting, this is the games shit design
@@MajorJefferson hopefully when this game inevitably dies in the next month or so they’ll be able to reflect on this and learn from their mistakes for when the next game comes out.
Nahhhh, who am I kidding they’re just gonna do the same thing and kill that game and then have the same complaints pointed at everyone else.
Bro so famous that people associate common phrase like "The Bald One" with Him
The Bald Number One
Griefers will always find a way to grief with which ever tools they have. Take away pvp and they'll grief in different ways knowing there's nothing you can do about it. All I'm saying is that pvp can be used to either grief or hold someone accountable for griefing. Pvp is just a tool and non consensual pvp is all a matter of how you use it.
This is a great way to promote your game, have a top streamer get bullied out of the game day one.
I had no idea this was in the game. Will never play it now
@@bearcooper1163you well when you realize it’s the best up coming mmo
This is nothing compared to Ned Luke’s (Micheal DeSanta) GTA online streams. 💀
@@Snack_Foodsnah, maybe if this is changed but pvp in mmos has never been my thing
I'm actually waiting for this game. then we got things like PVP on a level based system with TAB TARGETTING.
I don't like pvp when it is not Skill based. I always play competitive games but it is SKILL BASED.
I guess I will just wait for RiotMMO. They might make a MMO formula that will work unite all the mmo players.
I tried Lineage II back in the day. I got killed right in the starter area multiple times. I never tried it again.
every single fully open world pvp game... just constant being ganked. That has what happened everytime I tried one. They also die within a year usually a couple months.
I played L2 for a decade (2003-2013), never got killed in the starter area.
@@Dead_GoatBDO last for like 8 years.
@@csk3578 Because in BDO you can't be targeted for PvP, until you are lv 50 or higher.
@@csk3578 In BDO theres a system that makes it so that if your level 1-49 you are pve only but once you do an advancement quest (optional until you do it) you basically consent to world pvp with safe zone and combat zones to consider. The kicker with that is in order to advance story and content you have to do it meaning not doing it will lock you out of majority of the areas because the lower level you are you do less damage while mobs do more damage to you.
Having PvP always on doesn’t work for MMORPGs long-term; *New World* is a perfect example. Originally designed around open PvP, the game quickly saw players frustrated by constant ambushes, especially those focused on PvE. To keep a balanced player base, developers had to make PvP optional. Open PvP often leads to unbalanced gameplay and drives away casual players, so successful MMORPGs usually offer PvP as an option, allowing players to choose when to engage.
It works if done right, just look at BDO.
@@CookiesCatbug You mean the game with less players than New World right now?
Asmongold saying that any game with "non consensual PvP" will cannibalize itself and never be a mainstream game is unironically a 65 IQ take. WoW has non consensual PvP and it grew to be the most popular MMO while PvE MMOs like Star Trek Online, LOTRO etc are dead...
Open world PVP was the only reason I played WoW. Basically my "endgame", and I played for years. Oh, and I wasn't trying to "make people quit the game" when I killed them. Entire video is an L take by Asmon.
@noiosobear6284 but you're not doing pve. You're doing pvpve. If someone kills me in Halo while I'm trying to pick up a weapon or LoL while I'm farming creeps, do I get to say "waaah waaah i was just trying to do pve and get better items!" I mean do you get this mad in a single player game when it happens? Do you quit a Soulsborn game if you get unexpectedly killed?
Not me trying to click the tank guide multiple times. 😂😂😂
Asmongold joins game with open pvp.
Community: “You’ve chosen death then”
They have chosen death for the game itself
Yeah, just goes to prove his point that people will always gank if given the chance. Not a good look for the game if it allows people to do that.
8:14 This makes no sense. Elden Ring isn't a MMO, so the chatter made a bad comparison
Also, pvp in Elden Ring is in fact consensual. By going co-op, you're essentially consenting to be invaded. This has been said and debated many times now
If you don't want pvp in Elden Ring, there are 2 options: Download Seamless or disable online multiplayer (play solo)
Well that's why asmond refused to even respond to the guy.
Except he didn't say MMO. In 7:32 he specifically says any game. So that leaves the floor open to the Soulsborne games.
@@popatsot1 I can see you lack critical thinking skills.
@@popatsot1 Ignoring the rude comment below (or above me), he did say that. But I was referring to the chatter that asmon was responding to. If the chatter was basing it on the MMO side, then its a bad comparison. But if the chatter said any game, then yeah it opens the door for Soulsborne.
@brandondenny226 I can see you have nothing useful to say but you had to say something snarky anyway. Sill doesn't answer the question that the guy in stream asked. I acknowledge that he is talking about an MMO and this conversation should be on MMOs but that is not what he said. He should have brought up that different genres have different expectations, but he did not.
He lost xp? Yeah I'm not playing a game in which you can lose xp, I hate that concept completely. It's one of the main reasons I stopped playing POE.
damn one of the mains reason?
I heard in wow you can't lose xp
@@justanobody0 I tried WoW once with a friend, I did not like it. Honestly I'm not going to invest time in an MMO unless I really feel it has a strong future ahead and really enjoy playing it.
@@VyndrosNoldor yeah just Wait for RIOTMMO. They might change the Formula of MMO games. their formula is still for niche players/Senior Citizens.
Restricting beginner zones isn't really a solution either, all that accomplishes is that it moves where/when the ganking will take place. Then you'd have people invest a few hours only to get relentlessly ganked at the edge of the intro-zone until they quit, and worse, they'd be doubly angry that their time invested was a waste in the first place. PvP-enabled zones shouldn't be the default, they should be the exception. OSRS Wilderness with a warning style is still the best compromise I've seen anywhere.
Osrs wilderness is cool because the activities give you more loot there to make up for the risk
what you do is stop streaming, if you can't handle attention don't stream.
@@pvprangergod4024 Of course its a solution but you gotta keep in mind that
1. Asmongold is a streamer and part of his job is sharing his thoughts and likes with his comunnity, in this case ashes of creation
2. Asmongold is one of the biggest MMO streamers in north america, if he streams a game that game gets a lot of publicity
3. This isnt a situation where asmon gets mad because there are people with him, this is a situation where restarted dunce want to grief and harrass because they have nothing in their life that gives them more happiness than being a leech
@@mantraki sounds like you take video games too seriously and worship streamers who don't even know your name. calm down, carebear.
Yeah, when I'm checking out a new MMO and I see that it has non-consensual pvp I just won't play it. Glad to know I can check Ashes of Creation off my list of games to check out.
@@askingANGELS ive never cared much about consent. In my games or when partying downtown. Thats something for simps and white knights to fuss over.
@@gregg6398 I’m sure all the huzz love you 💀
I have been playing for 3 weekends now and have not been killed once by another player. As a player, you can't keep griefing. It will completely ruin you. You will be powerless after a while and loose all your gear. I understand that short term it seems like fun and it's an Alpha where your progress doesn't matter and you can ruin your character without much consequences because there will be server wipes. Once the game is released, this will be a completely different story.
@@magnav6797 for a time. But why fret over what they love? Its not important. Getting what I want is what matters. Maybe the rare 10% to 15% you can give a care about.
But most of the time what they love isn't worth thinking about. That changes like the breeze so why chase the wind? Just take what you want.
Good because people like cry on forums and get things nerfed, leave pvp games to pvpers
Just level gate the PVP, make PVP open only for players within 5 levels of each other.
Also PVP in towns is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in an MMO, no safe zones means no casual players and it makes trade jobs look unappealing.
That's the dumbest most easily exploitable idea ever. Let's say max lvl is 60, I make a guild of lvl 54 players specifically to avoid being able to be attacked by 60s, having free reign to raid their cities, their nodes, take their shit, etc, etc and they can't even interact with me.
@@MATCHLESS789 you got it wrong. obviously you will be flagged when interacting in such manner with opposite guild. Protection is for PK not for PVP .
lineage 2 had 1 hour buff that you could get from npc for low lvl people . which was preventing people 10+ lvls from u to PK you , but if u flagged u could be killed by anyone.
apart from making PVP and PVE servers separate this is good solution as well. not as extreme as each 5 lvl but till players reach end game content. and lets say if theres lvl 60 cap you could have protections till lvl 50 or 55 and there must be power difference lets say if there is siege lvl 50 people should not have enough power to take castle etc..
but with extreme penalty on PK believe me there wont be grieving. and PKing will be used tactically as it should be, without no random person getting targeted often.
in Lineage 2 PK penalty was not this extreme but even there people didnt grieve , or whoever tried after 2-3 death their character was as good as lvl 1 with no gear deleveled just useless. it was extremly hard to clear your karma, it would take hours ( getting killed would remove it much faster but it would make you lose HOURS of progress each death, 1 pk could cost you 1 week of farm just purely in xp, not talking about if someone not your friend killed you and took items you dropped.) and to clear your karma well you had to farm in open world where every other person would see your RED name and kill you.
@@gandulfnopls7834 There will always be griefing, since targeting weaker players still will be possible.
@@MATCHLESS789That’s called twinking and it’s a very popular and fun genre in wow pvp.
I love how modest Asmon is about his influence on the gaming market. I hope that he stays this open minded and reasonable when rating games 'cuz he's one of the very few sources I trust on.
He is completely omitting benefits he gets as streamer in games and how unfair it is compared for other players with no ability to compete.
I saw the Griefing of Asmongold LIVE and it def made me not want to play this game.
@@PerfectionHuntermade me want to play tbh. It’s dope you aren’t restricted. Asmon shoulda sicked the stream on them lmao
Bro open minded is probably the last thing I’d use to describe Asmon, he hates everything. He hates life.
@@zeikersBut even you hate it you still play along with it, so whats the point?🤷
11:00 Log into ANY gta lobby and you will find exactly this type of person, in droves.
15:40 Bingo. It's also the lowest common denominator.
This is the exact reason i never got into Rust. I was just wandering around, trying stuff out, and some guy rolled up with an rifle and killed me. I had zero gear or loot or any reason to get killed except i was obviously brand new. That same guy proceeded to hang around the place i was spawning in at and killed me two more times. Uninstalled the game and never played it again.
who said Rust is for furry's? don't let people troll you, it never was sugar coated and soft hearted.
@@alalalal5952 what are you on about?
@@wesleymarvin8148 Rust be like
@alalalal5952 what?
@@wesleymarvin8148 any social PERSON in RUST could and have united with other players, if u cant, look in the mirror for reason why
I don't mind forced pvp. Once you leave town, it's no holds barred. But spawning and immediately getting negged, just crazy lmao
Someone will place 100 players at each of the town's exits.
I do, guess I won't be playing this one.
@@SoaringMoon Imagine the guild wars, corrupt players everywhere and rats trying to pick up easy kills for loot lmao.
I mean I'm glad you enjoy it but it's not a widely enjoyed way of gaming. Thats why most (not all) full loot pvp games don't succeed. Its got an extreamly niche audience and if done poorly griefers like this can have a field day.
@@SoaringMoon Won't happen
To be fair, respawn points and cities not being safe is kind of stupid.
Albion Online has a really good open world PvP. They can look at it.
any open world PvP is always bad. all advantage on attacker and severe disadvantage when being the target...
leave PvP for dedicated PvP zones and instances
By "pretty good open world PvP" you mean the 40 people that wait at the entrance of contested zones to gank and one shot you at the end of the loading screen? So good indeed
no it doesnt i have a hundreds if not a thousand odd hours logged on it. because of the open world pvp its made it all guild politics, and you really aint progressing without a guild unless you dont play anything but albion. apart from that the pvp is extremely unbalanced and anyone trying to solo is forced to use one of between 3-5 loadouts which sucks becase theres some really nice concepts when it comes to the weapon and armour progression system
Albion is cancer too. I do think if it wasn't possible to swipe to make up for pvp losses it might be better
I love Albion. The reply’s to this are obviously people who don’t like pvp.
There was a game called Ferentus about 15-20 years ago, one of the first MMORPG's when WoW came out, they did PvP right. You had specific leveling zones that were marked as PvP zones, and then when you reach a certain level you become open to PvP anywhere.
6:31 if Angry Joe didn't become a youtuber and instead was a video game professor in college.
The current system as it is only prevents higher level players from PKing randomly. For lower level players (and insane enough people) this doesn't matter because you can make a new character... You have to be attached to your character for the law of the land to affect you. Its honestly a pretty decent idea from a game dev perspective but needs polish for sure.
Then your corruption level, or whatever, should be tired to your account and transfer to any new characters you make until you work it off.
@@AdamantineAxeand they will make multiple accounts, bought through Chinese gold farms, just like in WoW
I always loved the EvE online / Albion online approach, where the zones have tiers of "safety" and the deeper you go, the tougher it gets. For example, the highest tier zone is just full-loot Wild West.
When I learned that gangs were scanning cargo and one shotting freighters in high sec, I never used autopilot again and had Z warps off of every gate.
Asmon called the palastines an inf*rior culture i am 100% aginst hamss but you cant just say that about a culture.......
@@davidboi4025 nobody asked
@rapidrotation oh thats to bad let me play the worlds smallest violin for you.......🎻🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶
@rapidrotation Asmongold called the palastines an inf*rior culture i am 100% aginst hamas but you cant just say that about a culture....
I played an MMORPG called Tibia that came out in 1997. There was always on PVP and an extremely harsh death penalty. If you killed too many people you got what was called a "red skull" meaning you lost every item you had on your character on top of the already harsh exp loss. That system didn't do anything for the greifing or "power abuse". Ashes of Creation will be DOA if you cant opt out of PVP.
On spawn pvp is nuts, there should be your regular saves zones. Like starter map etc.
Asmon called the palastines an inf*rior culture i am 100% aginst hamss but you cant just say that about a culture.......
There is going to be, it just hasn’t been implemented yet since we are still in Phase 1 of alpha 2
@@davidboi4025 this reply has nothing to do with the comment above why are you telling them this?
@@TheRNGArchivebot
@@TheRNGArchive because it is facts im simply stating an event
2:44 The "Uh oh" in both videos in succession is hilarious!
The problem with PvP is rarely the first time you kill someone. It’s the fact that you can do it again
bdos open world pvp system in combination with limited grinding spots and the necessity to grind in those spots to be able to level single handedly made me quit the game and ruined all of the good parts of it for me.
You should create a series where you just keep on reviewing your self or from some one that reviews you or a topic that is related to you and pile it all in one so that way there's like a bunch of asmongolds on the screen reviewing each other.
Non consensual PVP is never good. This game is already trash.
Yep DOA
@@australienski6687 It's exactly like Asmon said. There are people that get their joy from making others miserable in game so as long as there are shitty people it will never work. Not to mention if your punishment is so extreme that they actually don't do it then why have it at all?? It's pointless.
And this is why PvP games never last long. It's already dead, we all know it. All of the dev's efforts just evaporated for 90% of prospective players
edit: I also find it funny people are citing shooters and moba's as reasons i'm wrong, but we all know those are very different things to MMO's, the cope is unreal.
rust?
PVP games are literally the most popular games in the world. Shooter games, league of legends, etc. So you're just plain wrong? Even WoW pvp servers were "non-consensual" pvp.
Asmongold saying that any game with "non consensual PvP" will cannibalize itself and never be a mainstream game is unironically a 65 IQ take. WoW has non consensual PvP and it grew to be the most popular MMO while PvE MMOs like Star Trek Online, LOTRO etc are dead...
I think he means that there is no way to avoid it
PvP games are the most popular games in terms of viewership and often player numbers. This game was also designed as a PvP game, if you don't like PvP happening sometimes the game was simply not designed for you. It was never going to be a casual PvE MMO... It's like going into LoL then complaining it's not a PvE game.
Just look at Twitch and the top viewership games. LoL, Val, GTA (GTA RP servers are PvP, likely more so than Ashes will be lmao.), Rust, CS2. Then you have minecraft/WoW with some PvP streamers before going back into PvP style games with CoD, Apex, Fortnight, Dota, Tarkov, streatfighter, Mario party and so many others.
At least with livestreaming the majority of games people watch are PvP styled games with you killing or fiercely competing with other players. When you look at steam most of the top games are also PvP games along with mostly single player games with optional PvP.
People love PvP when the game is good. Personally I don't like the way Ashes looks with it's combat and graphics so far so I'm not interested but PvP is not the issue. From what I seen the game is pure trash if you take out the PvP as it would kill all of it's unique features leaving mediocre combat and a bland world.
that is why i love pvp in osrs, there is the wildreness, high risk high rewards, you can pvp there... and the deeper you are the highest/lowest level can be attacked.
They should go the OSRS route and create PVP only zones with high risk and high reward, leave the other zones for PVE and optional PVP. I think that could work
I think that would be better..but I do have to admit that the wildly is one of the most hated areas in OSRS. Ashes also has its whole caravan system it would have to rework.
@@RareAngelz you could just create a special zone around caravans that act as a PVP or Wilderness area.
That's like any mmo with "pvp". If this game 'die' it will not be because of pvp on.
While I do like the OSRS style route I don't think it's even close to being a good idea in Ashes. The game was designed from the start to be a PvP community focused game. It won't be hardcore killing all the time and people are clearly going to be punished by game systems and maybe even the devs if they over do it but people will battle for resources, control over your region, and to steal caravans among other things. Without the PvP that happens in the world the game seems kinda bad to me.
It's ok if the game is not designed for you, I personally love the idea of the game but I don't like the graphic style they went with and the combat looks horrible to me, at least when watching it and not playing it.
@@Shadow-bk1im That's what I would do. Then maybe have 2 or 3 pvp nodes and/or a resource rich pvp zone in each biome. This way there's a variety of pvp areas and circumstances but also a large amount of non-pvp areas. Heck, with Ashes node system it might be reasonable to have the Mayors elect pvp or not.
I once played a mobile mmo that had non-con pvp in the second area. Trolls that were 30 levels higher than you would hide out in narrow pathways of the second area to snipe you when you got near. You'd lose exp, and even drop in levels if enough exp was lost, and even could end up back at level 1 if you didn't stop to re-grind those levels up.
The worst part was that when you hit a certain level, you stopped getting exp from monsters that were lower in level than you. I think the first area capped you at level 7 or something.
And if you somehow made it into the third area, you had to walk past a huge fan-favorite pvp area where both sides would mistake you for the other, no matter how far out of the way you went to avoid the main conflict, and you'd die there.
I never made it past level 12.
Whats the game?
I mean.. that sounds kinda cool. There's actually a game to it, instead of being a brain dead "follow the gps and you're guaranteed max lvl" ordeal.
To each their own. A game where you're not allowed to progress because of other players doesn't sound fun at all.@@MATCHLESS789
@@StreamerTH-cam it was called The World of Magic. I think it's still on the play store. I haven't played it in over a decade so idk if it's changed at all
@@MATCHLESS789 admittedly, I liked that you couldn't just grind low level mobs to just get max level, but you couldn't progress at all in the game with the trolls lurking. The starting area was maybe an hour's worth of gameplay, and you didn't even accomplish anything as far as I can remember. The game became entirely unplayable to new players after that.
The play by play of the Asmo-sassination 2:15 😂😂😂
😂😂😂
This is how Kennedy felt from beyond the grave watching his assassination back
Arch Duke Frans Ferdinand type vibes frfr 💯
It is such an easy solve. You are only able to attack others if you equip a special item. Equiping the item makes you guaranteed losing one or more item from your inventory or equiped items on defeet. You can attack anybody when wearing this item and anybody can attack you when you are wearing said item.
MMOs that want this feature need to change there entire design philosophy, makes no sense why pvp from start should be mmo skill & lvl dependent.
They would need to make something almost like a tactical shooter.
Funnily enough, the only place where always on PvP works is in Anime where ppl play with Full Dive headgears.
Where in order to kill someone you need to straight up outmanouver them even if they have level and item advantage
@@fleecyformula7365_Good point. Funny thing is, if they liked PvP so much they could just go for an FPS or a Fighting game._
_But like you said, they'll get wrecked there because of the difference in skill gap and how maneuvering is part of the gameplay versus the typically slower point and click gameplay of MMOs._
Watching that gankfest makes me not even want to try the game. I've played enough wow to know how things can go.
Scare
Open world pvp games are an obsolete concept.
@@MWBalls Not really. I just think that Ashes takes it a little too far in one direction. There are ways to make it work. Allowing level one spawn camping isn't one of those.
Only a tiny minute niche of players want this kind of crap in an MMO.
non consensual PVP
Who would have thought this could be a phrase aye? 😅
i laughed out loud, when he said that
Its level one players killing another level one player , because it's Asmon,.. IT doesnt happen normally
@@andyh4747 You are right normally it is max level player spawn camping starting zones because they are bored.
Basically a game to be played like brazil
Love your responses toward the topics Asmongold, its so beyond the normal gamer thinking capabilities. its so simple and we move on right away.
The solution seems simple. Asmon said it. Just make PvP an optional toggle on login so the Ganks can run around consentually Ganking each other. There can also be certain areas in the game where PvP is mandatory. No need for a corruption mechanic at all.
The whole game is built with PvP in mind. It's a player sandbox first. So it's likely we'll just end up with safe zones around towns.
The problem is get off on killing those unprepared for PvP. They don’t won’t to fight on equal footing. Shutting down others players and making them quit makes the griefers rock hard.
Its alpha, they did basic mistake of not having peace zone at start. PvP in this game is what the game is all about
@@Dewulfi Then add PvP arenas.
The people that are all abot PvP can and will meet there. What you are talking about is not the case, people are all about harassing people that don't want to play "their" game by surprising them, ganking them or otherwise disturb them in some way. THAT's what it is about for most people.
@@Dewulfi Yes and "basic" is the most scary part. its going to be a dumpster fire.
WTF did the developers think when they created this? "Let's just have unlimited PvP everywhere. Everyone loves PvP, right?" ... "Oh wait, some people are attacking other people, just for fun and ruining the fun for others? Nobody could have known that!"
I have absoltely zero hope for this game to be any good.
did you miss the part where you essentially become a snail doing it? There are plenty of reasons for a system like this to exist, for example if you dont want to share something valuable with a bot or a noob who just started playing. Since the game is open world and has open world raid content as well it absolutely makes sense. This game from the very start never targetted WoW or FF14 players...
the game is already good in its alpha state. those griefers just want to be in an asmongold stream because he is litteraly one of the biggest game streamer and probably have a lot of people that hates him thats why they did this to him. you should try it and play. its already way better than new world when it was first released.
@@bomber9912 What's the point in making a game where PvP is always on if then pun ish people for making use of it?
@@MeMelster Well in theory RL is also always pvp on
People usually dont do it because they dont want to or there is no reason to. But they could if they wanted and as a result get severely punished.
I mean i literally told you a reason: Bots. Some hero will sacrifice himself and slaughter all bots, gets punished for that but the rest of the player base will have a long cooldown until those bots come back and get readjusted to farming a spot. And you can never fully get rid of bots from a dev side.
Edit: Now i personally would love to see a mixture of algorithm and player based court system like in Archeage for crimes.
@@TheRewindSession Also... Asmon will have a Sperg army following and protecting him anyway... Once the game actually goes live he will have sentinels with best gear around him 24/7 just like in WoW. Sure some AdvertiseSP might sneak through every now and then, but thats content for him...
Gotta love devs that are going around sanctioning people when this type of behaving is fault of bad game-play mechanics.
If you do not want open world pvp than you do not design gameplay for open world pvp...
it reminds me of people who say they want communism... and then they see what communism actually is. They do not understand that their idealistic views are not the norm. If there is a way to exploit a system to make other people miserable people will do it just for that reason regardless of punishment barring something that would hurt them in real life financially or physically.
Exactly! This video honestly made me lose hope for AoC. If they don't understand this very basic concept, then how are they gonna make the rest of the game fun?
They police "griefing" on a personal case to case too. If the dev doesn't like your face, it's bullying, if you are a funny Chad - it's forced pvp game design and fine.
PK'ing has been around for a while, its not a new concept, but you are right, there are some areas that should not have PvP allowed in them because ( think Eragon books where magic was used to dull the blade) I don't think they should remove it completely because then it will break the immersion it has created. having the option to opt out of PVP by holding some trinket maybe?
Yeah, not going to lie I was thinking about getting this game but. I work a job where I wake up at 5:00 and come home at 7:00. If I want to play a video game and I'm only greeted to being constantly grieved; I wouldn't want to play that game. I'm better off playing a single player, but good luck trying to find a good single player game nowadays.
There are plenty of good single player games, you're just not looking for them.
Plenty. I have never touched mmo in my life. Even backlog of games i missed since ps1 era. Thousands of great single player games are waiting to be played. Currently playing refantazio.
Play subnautica. 10/10 single player experience.
join a good guild for example join pirate softwares guild and they will protect you no one is dumb enough to attack their level ones i assure you lol.
The word around the grapevine is the new dragon age is being considered a wow killer.
If there is one single thing that can ruin ANY game, then it is Open PvP. There is a reason why it basically doesnt exist anymore in any game, except on PvP servers of survival games like Ark or Conan.
If thats how it is, the game is DOA.
EvE and Albion Online would like a word.
@@matthewmammothswine4395eve has a buuuunch of pve only zones
@@matthewmammothswine4395 eve is not pvp everywhere. albion online has been dead since release and also is not fully open pvp.
@@matthewmammothswine4395 thats crazy i remember in albion that pvp was only on in certain zones and gave you a warning before venturing into those areas
@@Dead_Goat Technically. Eve is PVP everywhere. Just in high security space.. you are going to get the NPC law enforcement on you pretty quick. Which is why it ends up mostly happening in zero sec space.
2 Asmons at the same time is top tier content. I’d happily watch him go back and react to his own old videos.
Let's leave that for when he's actually bald
As a vanilla wow player from when it came out, I enjoyed wows pvp servers. It didn't happen much until you hit hillsbrad. Plus, the horde/alliance members were very noticeable.
My stance on map-wide open PVP is that it should be a separate server option because of how strong it's impact on the gameplay loop is.
Outside of that, I would be fine with opt-in pvp (like souls games), or very punishing pvp drawbacks that impact the player (dropping loot, losing gold, losing experience, being banned from towns, not being able to use certain systems etc.) because I don't mind getting killed a few times a day, the problem is literally being hunted down by a mob of hundreds of players eating all your playtime and splitting the drawback to a negligible amount.
Well you'll be happy to know that the game already has very punishing pvp drawbacks like dropping loot and huge stat dampening. What happened to asmongold happens to literally nobody else in the alpha right now. You almost never see non-consensual pvp because it is too punishing for the aggressor.
@user-yk6hv6hj3p yeah but like I said in the last part, it still needs polish to deal with big ganks, since it seems the drawbacks apply in a way that allows 99 people to get away and only one to be punished.
I would go even further and say the player that was killed should get a benefit counteract it, or otherwise, get a bonus agains the killer to make a back to back fight greatly detrimental to the OG killer and make it so the killed can take revenge. That could even turn non consensual PVP into a community activity like it is in souls games (though ofc, all of this is my top of the head bandaid, a team should actually sit and brainstorm what solution fits the most)
@@miles3101 yeah I mean there's a lot of stuff not in the game yet and there's still a lot of testing ahead. The guys making the game know that pvp isn't for everybody but won't budge on it being in the game because it is absolutely integral to the way that resources and power will be distributed throughout the world and playerbase.
They are definitely anti-griefing and are doing what they can to combat issues that were more prevalent in other games with pvp. It will just take time to balance, and also time for the actual pvp event systems to be incorporated into the alpha to keep the pvpers busy. But to be perfectly honest, I've had almost no contact with pvp or even seen any in about 100 hours of playing.
I don't really have any issues with open world PvP. Most people generally won't just randomly start killing you without reason. That being said, you should not lose XP for another player killing you, regardless of if you are in combat or not. I also never thought about it before, but streaming in games like this seems impossible. BDO open world PvP was fun because it never felt like people randomly just started going at it, if I was grinding mobs in a favorable area and someone started encroaching on my spot, we're going at it. My friends and I were doing something one time and we ended up getting in fight that traveled across half of one of the regions. For me, it creates a lot of fun and memorable moments.
Good point. Corruption won't stop players from just denying you the ability to even level. It creates a wall that lower level players, won't be able to surmount.
PvP MMORPG's don't have a long shelve life if they can't figure out grieving etc.
Add Kill Bounties And Protect Bounties, The more often a player gets killed the larger their protect bounty is.
Could also integrate protect bounties with a built in guard system, So if you guard a player with a protect bounty you will could have your HP or shield/armor linked to them, This way rondos won't be able to walk up an one shot your protect target. Could also work like dark souls where if a player you are defending is attacked then you get summoned to their location. Perhaps the shared hp/shield only lasts for a portion of time and after you teleport to save them it slowly starts to dissipate. But renews each time a new PVP attacker joins.
Basically, if they can implement systems that reward players for defending others from pvp without making the people defending players feel like they need to waste time doing nothing but following around a rando who might not get attacked. Then they could have a nice counter balance that works out.
You can't just have open world pvp + exp reduce per death + item drop when you get killed and being forced even on a fucking town or level 1 creation map xd.
Haven't we learn anything from MU online?
Plenty of rats going to be on level 1 zones killing newbies
MU was different. Killing random players were heavily penalized, and taking out other killers rewarded. Your character didn't drop items unless you already had PK status. Also pretty much every map had a safezone where you teleported before entering the PVP area.
Personally it had my favorite mmo pvp system, i still remember the player organized PK police groups after 15+ years.
You only drop items if you're the one doing the killing with people not fighting back.
The game is in alpha, and safe zones haven't been put in the game yet.
Importantly, literally nobody else has had the experience that asmongold had. People just killed him because he's asmongold. The developers have said for a long time that griefing will be actionable. The people that did this got banned.
I've played for about a hundred hours and haven't been killed once.
Frankly, asmongold doesn't know anything about how the pvp in the game is functioning right now for normal players, and is saying a lot of crap that is just not true.
I think the second alpha added the meaning to Ashes of Creation.
Like, the player base will be ganked out of the game until the game die and turn to ash.
Edit: Joke aside, either make so starting area has PvP off, or add a minimum player level to enable PvP.
Those are my only ideas to solve that mess.
Looks like a game I won't be playing. It will be full of toxic losers who have to make up for their real-life lack of power by griefing noobs.
If you base your opinion of the game on what happened to a streamer who is notorious for getting killed in pvp games for laughs then you are making a mistake. Most people who are playing the alpha almost never see any pvp. The punishment for killing players is currently extremely brutal.
He was almost acting like the video of himself was a different person for a bit 😂
The game is a scam... it will never finish and launch before it becomes outdated and obsolete. It already looks "old" compared to next-gen MMOs and the development is 4 years from a launch point.
Yes, as we all know, graphics are the first thing that are finished in a game, and are not subject to change.
What a terrible game mechanic, open world pvp with loss of xp, this will have 5 players after two weeks of launch.
this game already have 100 thousand or more player playing it every weekend and its still in an alpha state. and its increasing since it release almost a month ago. imagine this on its actual release.
I still play a game to this day that has thousands online at any given time. And has worse penalties than that for dying. With full open world PvP. And it's been out nearly 30 years. So you're just wrong.
@@grimnar6725 So you quite literally didn't watch the video, nor listen to what Asmon said here: 7:35. What he said was entirely true and has happened to a plethora of forced PvP games that otherwise would have been acceptable by today's standards and still played. Not some generic, "who?" game that barely scrapes a thousand players.
@@Very_Bord wasnt wow vanila like this with its world pvp? man i remember questing on westfall and getting gank for hours but i didnt beitch about it. and i even think that thats what made wow vanila the best mmo to ever exist because of its world pvp. retail wow now is sheyt becuse people just stay in the city and que for adungeon. asmon complaining about pvp sounds like he probably only played in a pve realm lmao.
@@Very_Bord totally irrelevant to my comment. I was responding to this OP who said it was a terrible game mechanic and would have 5 players weeks after launch.
Wow at its prime had 10 million+ active subs and most of its servers had open PvP. So .... What's your point cupcake? People that didn't want to PvP had the "normal" servers. But just because they didn't want to hurt fragile ego's we both know those servers weren't the "normal" intended gameplay experience for a game based on a war between the factions. Lol
15:30 I think this is his point though. People will see how you're treated and will be turned off by the game likely because it's possible it can happen to them too. Of course it won't be to nearly as bad of a degree, but your viewers just watched the possibility turn reality.
asmons experience will be better than the average player. he has a ton of people defending him. normal people dont.
@@Dead_Goat consider myself the average player and my experience was nothing like Asmongolds - I dropped in did the early quests and shuffled off to my guilds chosen node without a single pvp death, played all weekend and didn't get PKd once. Normal people have the defense of anonymity, no one is just killing random low levels. People were killing Asmon because it was Asmon.
@@Jordancommenter That's weird, I guess my name was no one back in wow then. Because I used to do that a lot. Getting honor can barely be called a reward. The reward is the grief it causes the other player. Also, it's not like I was the only one doing that.
Having a game that's full on pvp with NO starter zone that's essentially a safe zone for brand new fresh characters is so ass backwards and this game is essentially already dead.
I know AoC is suppose to be a pvp mmorpg, but you are right. It is completely ridiculous that as soon as you log into the game on a lvl 1 character you can be killed. That doesn't allow fostering new players to play.
yeah makes the game unplayable for most.
he was probably stream sniping so he could see that
Dude relax its an alpha. It hasn't been put in the game yet.
open world persistent pvp games are the most toxic shit ever, there always the stomping ground of the 24/7 terminally online no'lifers, their goal isnt to win its to make people miserable because thats their idea of fun, you gotta have defined pvp zones
This is an incredibly one dimensional take
@@windumaster14 and incredibly correct. The goal of the PKers is always, without exception, to harass and grief their victims till they uninstall the game. Then they start wondering why nobody plays anymore.
@@Gungrave123 except when that isn't their goal, lol
PVP in towns and no solo play? Games dead on arrival. None of the PVP MMOs are even in the top 3 MMOs....its for a reason.
I agree, BUT this game is still in alpha or pre-alpha. So the PvP in towns thing may very well be changed.
You can do solo play, it's just slower and harder. You know, like how in classic WoW you could do solo play but group play was more efficient.
Why would it have to be in the top 3?
@@windumaster14 because it costs hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and will require at least as much every year to sustain development..
Asmon is absolutely right that it's not a streamer problem, i'm a nobody and it already happened to me a couple of times. The only difference is that i don't have a direct channel to Steven, so i have two options, accept it or quit the game... Which i think is sad, considering i really like the game so far, but this feature alone, may be enough for me to not play it in the future.
What happened? You logged in and people made new characters to intentionally grief just you? I've played like 100 hours and had nothing of the sort happen.
@user-yk6hv6hj3p nah, no level 1 camping, however it has happened a couple of times..
The most recent one, was last weekend where I was aoe farming with two other guys I randomly met out in the open, then suddenly this almost 10 level higher dude, ganked us while we were in the middle of a pull.. When that happened a 3rd time, we were prepared for him, so we turned on him and chased him down.. And then 10 minutes later, his pathetic guild mates (including an almost max level mayor on flying mount) came in and obliterated us..
The mobs in the area, were too low level for him to be of any use to him.. So it was obviously just an idiot who wanted to ruin the enjoyment for the rest of us.
I completely understand that it's part of the game, that's why I said one of my only two options would be to quit the game, since I personally don't enjoy it..
@@Loopmootin Look, I don't really agree that this is comparable to the griefing that asmongold had to deal with, but I can understand that you don't find stuff like that very fun.
What I would say to somebody like you though, is that you've obviously already bought into the alpha, so you have plenty of time to really make up your mind and there will be a lot of iterations of pvp rules and also many many more systems and zones etc added, that I believe will draw the attention of people who enjoy pvp away from these kinds of interactions. Not completely of course, but I think the developers are acutely aware of peoples feelings towards pvp and how they differ from one another. They do really believe that having pvp in the game is essential to fully realise their vision though, and I have to agree with them.
My advice is, lean into it and maybe try a few different methods of dealing with stuff like this during the alpha. You can always keep a list of people that wrong you and find ways to screw them over later on. It doesn't have to be you coming out on top when you get attacked. If I was in this guild I would be embarrassed if people knew that I needed my mayor to come and save a member who was doing that to people. Reputation matters, and if they do those kinds of things to enough people, they will get theirs. And if you really don't like pvp, the world will be huge, and I'm sure there will be remote corners where few players will be, where you can live a more peaceful life. Time will tell.
@user-yk6hv6hj3p obviously it's not a one to one comparison...
Asmon said that the problem with not being able to unflag for pvp is that there will be people who will abuse the system and their sole purpose will be to ruin the fun for other players...
Thought it was completely obvious, that I didn't mean I had 100 people running around killing me at level one.. Of course I didn't have that, I was talking about the system in general
@@Loopmootin problem is, asmon only has a passing interest in this game and a lot of stuff that he says isn't entirely accurate. So he'll put out a video of that happening to him in an unfinished alpha and not be able to explain to people that intrepids stance on griefers is to action them. If people make accounts and characters for the sole purpose of doing stuff like that, then they will just get banned.
Now the issue is, in said video, almost everyone who watched it and commented basically says the game is DoA and they would never play anything like that where you can get spawn camped and griefed all day etc. It's an inaccurate representation of the average players experience to the extreme, and something that the company has repeatedly said they will actively mitigate.
Time will tell I guess.
Non-consensual pvp is essentially in place in games like Lineage 2 to promote fighting over resources/spots. In games like WoW, you are basically screwed if a bot or random party comes into your farming area with the ability to tag faster than you. In L2, you'd either be forced to fight for that spot, or the person could have the option of going nuclear and PK'ing you to stake their claim. It takes away the carebear aspect of MMO's. Clans/Alliances will battle eachother for the best farming spots on the map, making a simple 1v1 over a farm area quickly turn into a 50vs50 all out war for the next 12 hours.
the only way non consensual pvp makes sense is where at any given point in time both players are on the same page and only your skill matters
that's impossible even in theory, there's never just 2 players and one can always leverage an advantage, such as when you're low hp or have no cooldowns from fighting pve.
The only solution is a pvp off switch.
If people can't find that in the game, they'll find the uninstall button instead and your game is now dead.
The rules of MMO world pvp:
1. never start a fight you can't win.
2. always start a fight when you know winning is certain.
3. the reward isn't loot, it's making them log out.
This is WPVP, your enemy is the person and the game is your weapon, in-game punishments are a badge of honor, not a deterrent.
Strikes are stripes on their shoulders, every ban is a medal.
The Elden Ring/Souls games all have op in PvP. You have to either turn it on, or have friends in your game. It doesn't just "happen" without other choices being made. Also, you can freely play single player to level all the way up before taking on those options. No one can simply "force" their way into your single player farm experience if you are trying to relax for the night.
Yeah, I didn't see myself playing this game.
I think one solution the devs could use is also putting a reverse corruption system on players who are frequently PK'd without consent. If the player is constantly targeted by bad actors, the amount of corruption inflicted per attack dramatically increases. Call it innocence aura, or something - and the player's innocence resets to 0 if they kill another player who isn't PvP active. So that means haha funny moments for the first several deaths, but eventually anyone attacking the streamer while they aren't flagged instantly get hit with a super high tier corruption. It can even be indicated by an on-screen notification when attacking them. Also, if the player has blight or something similar, they can't gain innocence, etc. A balance.