+klowby That is philosophy. Maybe philosophy of linguistics and meaning, still philosophy though. In fact some very famous philosophers have said that understanding meaning or language and to conceptualize certain modes of thinking is the main goal of philosophy. As with everything in philosophy, though, that is very much debated.
As much as I agree with you Thorin, I still believe that the objectivity of the achievements in themselves is what we should really accept. Yes, teams with more Koreans or more talented players are actually expected to do more. However, this mentality will only sow disinterest from individuals who can potentially be the best. We must also put into account how much practice and training that the best players put into the game. When you have brought up the example of 2 basketball players, I don't think that correlates to eSports at all. The amount of work and efficiency one puts into his game will truly test if this man is successful or not. It's not about singular goals with how little you have. It's more about the grand scale of success you've accomplished through what you've put into.
Success is simple: You ( subjective ) set a goal, then you evaluate what factors made you not reach that goal or what made you reach that goal, and then you evaluate if you did have success or not. Someone who is bronze 4 and reached gold 5 within a season, might be more successfull than the silver 5 guy who reached gold 3. Somebody who is Master and reached Challenger might be more successfull than somebody who was silver and reached diamond. All depends on the perspective of the player and what he had to do to achieve his goal.
oh boy tha alphadraft ads are the best :D seriously they are so lucky to sponsor you. if it wasnt for these awesome ads, i wouldnt have tested them out :D
Whereas I'm inclined to agree with your perspective, I can't help but feel that in the end the application of it is entirely arbitrary. Who decides which players are successful and to what degree? I believe the usefulness of using a tournament or some other static measure is that it provides an objective measure of success that we can all agree upon. Indeed, it could be argued that that is the only reason we really have tournaments in the first place. How satisfied one is with their level of success within that system is up to the individual.
Spud Webb is 5'7'' and won a Slam Dunk Competition in 1986, to your dunking/layup thing. Granted he's probably an outlier in this case, but it's certainly interesting.
i love watching this alphadraft show with its advertisements about league and csgo at the end..and what im saying here is i prefer alphadraft at the start not end lol
the perfect example for your topic in regular sports would be steven gerrard. i mean come on this guy won the champions league with liverpool against an ac milan at their prime. he never won a premier league title, but still one of the most successfull footballers of all time.
+MrWowh By making "Success" the subject of the sentence, you give more importance to it. We are talking about success so it makes more sense the way Thorin wrote it. Of course, it would have fit both ways but I prefer it this way.
+MrWowh When your top lane retired as one of the worst, at the very least not able to adopt to meta. Your jungle got sucked up dry from a jungle carry to a ward to MIA in the scene, your support falls from the shinning example of Korean import to a streamer to "I am more comfortable in Korea as coach";, your ADC reduced to a plaque that all teams avoid. And your team defining mid became a meme of "I am in elo hell", and "I am STILL in elo hell". That, is not winning. But nobody can say TSM is not successful, when regi is counting money from garment sales, because it is just so comfortable. And their reality TV show is too addictive to watch! MUST HYPE TSM! TSM! TSM! As such, Success is not winning, Success is $$$.
Thorin have you ever considered making an episode about a topic of your choice concerning the competitive scene of super smash bros melee for the nintendo game cube released in 2001? I would love to hear your thoughts, especially now that we made it to dreamhack winter
Another example of why winning isn't always tied to success is that of someone who dominates his sport/game. Say for example a League of CS:GO team crushes 3 tournaments in a row not dropping a single map. If they then win a 4th tournament in a row but lose 1-2 maps while doing so, then technically despite winning, that tournament was not a success. The team might be a success still but that tournament was not such a moment.
Duncan. Success is 100% dependant on the goal the respective individual wants to achieve. It doesn't matter what other people think about the achiements of a random person. Your opinion does not matter, nor does mine, or anybody else's. Context only does influence the "rating" of success, if that context actually directly influences the chances of "success". Taking your LoL team as an example(i have no idea about lol): if this team's goal was to win as many domestic tournemts as possible - they are THE most successful. If not, they probably aren't. If a team or player's goal is to improve(LAN-wise), LG is probably the most successful team in CS:GO. If the goal is to earn Y amount of money, win X rounds/matches.. yadayada. It's a matter of perception - and sadly every human being perceives any given event different from all others. Success is what you want it to be. Not what anybody else says. Your perception of Stork's success is much different than how Koreans, other pro gamers or just casuals look at it. Because they see success different than you do. it's simply impossible to create a "rule" for success. Because there is no such thing as success: it's an irrational word mankind has invented, yet can't understand.
I think you are confusing improvement with success. A team may greatly improve themselves over time, but they will not be successful until they become one of the bests.
so true! good stories inspire other people (and.. sometimes luckier ones) to win! But if seen like this u could also say that they were better because if they were able to achieve the unachieved they should be better then those they perfected upon... but what about they couldnt achieve nothing at all without those magnificent failures! Still, I'd say good stories are the most important elements of a long lasting phenomenon like sports.
+CatnamedMittens „Michael Bialas” Should've written should of and would of. The best bait. I actually got triggered by myself writting down this comment.
I was expecting "the most obvious example of success is when you get sick skrilla playing alphadraft" at the start thorin, disappointed...
+ColinsBaldGrandma :D
Watch the outro.
Me too man 👌
+BanaaniPiirakka you made me clean my screen because of this "👌" and i realized that thorin's videos are not black and white.
+ColinsBaldGrandma Watch the closer
I really enjoy these more philosophical episodes
+ImpeccableChin its not philosophy. hes just explaining the definition of 2 words lol
+klowby That is philosophy. Maybe philosophy of linguistics and meaning, still philosophy though. In fact some very famous philosophers have said that understanding meaning or language and to conceptualize certain modes of thinking is the main goal of philosophy. As with everything in philosophy, though, that is very much debated.
Ashley Justus
yeah but it's already well defined its not something abstract
kennyS was a huge success when he was losing every game back in Titan
I agree. it's important to focus on improving yourself and setting your own records. Victory will simply be a side effect of your improvement.
As much as I agree with you Thorin, I still believe that the objectivity of the achievements in themselves is what we should really accept. Yes, teams with more Koreans or more talented players are actually expected to do more. However, this mentality will only sow disinterest from individuals who can potentially be the best. We must also put into account how much practice and training that the best players put into the game. When you have brought up the example of 2 basketball players, I don't think that correlates to eSports at all. The amount of work and efficiency one puts into his game will truly test if this man is successful or not. It's not about singular goals with how little you have. It's more about the grand scale of success you've accomplished through what you've put into.
Success is simple: You ( subjective ) set a goal, then you evaluate what factors made you not reach that goal or what made you reach that goal, and then you evaluate if you did have success or not. Someone who is bronze 4 and reached gold 5 within a season, might be more successfull than the silver 5 guy who reached gold 3. Somebody who is Master and reached Challenger might be more successfull than somebody who was silver and reached diamond. All depends on the perspective of the player and what he had to do to achieve his goal.
What if success has nothing to do with context and it just comes from the ability to generate revenue?
it could if you wanted it to be as it is purely subjective but that's not really a fair judgement.
+Carl M That would be success from the perspective of a banker and the likes
+Carl M What if bears rise up and take over?
+Frank Bumskee Gonna have to take them out while they hibernate.
oh boy tha alphadraft ads are the best :D
seriously they are so lucky to sponsor you. if it wasnt for these awesome ads, i wouldnt have tested them out :D
Whereas I'm inclined to agree with your perspective, I can't help but feel that in the end the application of it is entirely arbitrary. Who decides which players are successful and to what degree? I believe the usefulness of using a tournament or some other static measure is that it provides an objective measure of success that we can all agree upon. Indeed, it could be argued that that is the only reason we really have tournaments in the first place. How satisfied one is with their level of success within that system is up to the individual.
Easy. Success is relative where as Winning is only one thing.
Spud Webb is 5'7'' and won a Slam Dunk Competition in 1986, to your dunking/layup thing. Granted he's probably an outlier in this case, but it's certainly interesting.
Interesting perspective.
+CatnamedMittens “Michael Bialas” naw winning is everything.
manhal tellow but success isn't winning.
when thooorin's voice is rough from working an event Kreygasm
How do you have the energy to record this
passion... if you dont understand passion your life is probably boring and dumb
+dinoswarleaf passion... Ignore the rest of what he said
+Rascalat +1
Out of the power socket
i love watching this alphadraft show with its advertisements about league and csgo at the end..and what im saying here is i prefer alphadraft at the start not end lol
the alphadraft thing at the end was genius ;D
First time Thorin said goodbye in the end of a video?
Beautiful segway Thooorin, god bless. x
the perfect example for your topic in regular sports would be steven gerrard. i mean come on this guy won the champions league with liverpool against an ac milan at their prime. he never won a premier league title, but still one of the most successfull footballers of all time.
Should the title/argument be Winning is not success?
Can explain it to me if you think it shouldn't.
+MrWowh By making "Success" the subject of the sentence, you give more importance to it. We are talking about success so it makes more sense the way Thorin wrote it. Of course, it would have fit both ways but I prefer it this way.
+MrWowh They way I see it is: You need to have success to win but the opposite isn't true.
+MrWowh When your top lane retired as one of the worst, at the very least not able to adopt to meta. Your jungle got sucked up dry from a jungle carry to a ward to MIA in the scene, your support falls from the shinning example of Korean import to a streamer to "I am more comfortable in Korea as coach";, your ADC reduced to a plaque that all teams avoid. And your team defining mid became a meme of "I am in elo hell", and "I am STILL in elo hell".
That, is not winning.
But nobody can say TSM is not successful, when regi is counting money from garment sales, because it is just so comfortable. And their reality TV show is too addictive to watch! MUST HYPE TSM! TSM! TSM!
As such, Success is not winning, Success is $$$.
"Success is not winning" and "Winning is not success" are two entirely different statements though.
*****
Not really, he was addressing them as different points, which questions why he even titled it the original way round.
Thorin have you ever considered making an episode about a topic of your choice concerning the competitive scene of super smash bros melee for the nintendo game cube released in 2001? I would love to hear your thoughts, especially now that we made it to dreamhack winter
Another example of why winning isn't always tied to success is that of someone who dominates his sport/game. Say for example a League of CS:GO team crushes 3 tournaments in a row not dropping a single map. If they then win a 4th tournament in a row but lose 1-2 maps while doing so, then technically despite winning, that tournament was not a success. The team might be a success still but that tournament was not such a moment.
thorin: a place where you CAN win money
oh thorin, give it to me. where i can earn sweet skrilla. i know what's coming.
So, ultimately, success is not winning over someone, it's winning over yourself.
: >
Duncan. Success is 100% dependant on the goal the respective individual wants to achieve. It doesn't matter what other people think about the achiements of a random person. Your opinion does not matter, nor does mine, or anybody else's. Context only does influence the "rating" of success, if that context actually directly influences the chances of "success". Taking your LoL team as an example(i have no idea about lol): if this team's goal was to win as many domestic tournemts as possible - they are THE most successful. If not, they probably aren't. If a team or player's goal is to improve(LAN-wise), LG is probably the most successful team in CS:GO. If the goal is to earn Y amount of money, win X rounds/matches.. yadayada. It's a matter of perception - and sadly every human being perceives any given event different from all others. Success is what you want it to be. Not what anybody else says. Your perception of Stork's success is much different than how Koreans, other pro gamers or just casuals look at it. Because they see success different than you do. it's simply impossible to create a "rule" for success. Because there is no such thing as success: it's an irrational word mankind has invented, yet can't understand.
Was this video framed around a specific game or team performance, or just general musings? Interesting either way, thanks for making this vid.
would be interesting to know since a few tournaments are going on
I think you are confusing improvement with success. A team may greatly improve themselves over time, but they will not be successful until they become one of the bests.
Thorins voice seems to be failing as the video goes on :/
Can we expect a Luminosity about their dreamhack performance?
+minihjalte probably on BY THE NUMBERS with richard lewis
There is no way he hasn't studied some sort of philosophy. His analytical and critical thinking skills are swagging.
+Leighton Peart he has mentioned his thorough readings before
+Leighton Peart What is studying but learning material? He's mentioned before that he is a well-read man.
no alpha draft intro @thooorin ?
This got recommended to me today
"TSM will wreck LG's dreams on inferno"
=P
Hey man, are you under the weather or something? your voice is cracking really hard... hope you feel better anyways =D
Thooorin, when will you do the CSGO Thooorin vs Reddit version?
+PlayerFromHeaven He already did one
I know but i mean the 4th episode.
Thoughts on mtw reforming?
World's shortest thooorin video
Toorin sold out. Alpha draft gave him more mad skrilla for him to stop mocking them.
So what you mean is, you have to be underdog dog to have success. Being consistenly the best and winning is not success, nice logic :)
Success is selling the most amount of comfortable garments DESPITE not getting first in NALCS and 1-5 in world. So yes, $ucce$$ is not Winning.
so true! good stories inspire other people (and.. sometimes luckier ones) to win!
But if seen like this u could also say that they were better because if they were able to achieve the unachieved they should be better then those they perfected upon... but what about they couldnt achieve nothing at all without those magnificent failures! Still, I'd say good stories are the most important elements of a long lasting phenomenon like sports.
I liked this video a lot.
rip kennyS and crew
Good Video
but winning is not success
So true
jungle is succes
Dank
Thorin can u comment on my comment?
FIRST
+TheChosen1inc ★ CS:GO And More ★ Get out
+TheChosen1inc ★ CS:GO And More ★ get verified nerd
NA more successful than EU
Samsung White. Never 4 get
Winning the NA LCS is a success Kappa
Should've taken the kappa off. It would've been good bait.
+CatnamedMittens „Michael Bialas”
Should've written should of and would of. The best bait.
I actually got triggered by myself writting down this comment.
Ha Peenes Should have is fine.
Uhm... WINNING!? #tigerblood
Skrilla
ffs stop using feet and inches
my weewee is 1 feet 2 inches
SECOND
winning is all that matter.
btw CS GO IS SHIT ESPORTS
+Attack Defense VulgarMan returns
+Attack Defense * Winning is all that matters. *
* Btw CS:GO is a shit ESport *
Dumbass.
Noone cares
I liked this video a lot.
I liked this video a lot.