Any good mechanic knows that a properly running engine requires a sacrifice of blood, sweat, and tears. So how are you going to going to make the blood sacrifice necessary without the help of Mr. Stabbystab screwdriver?
Ohhhhh..... Yeah you brought back painful memories of "fixing" worn VW Beetle parts while in my teens. My screwdriver always ended up being Mr. Stabbystab
As an ex mechanic watching these makes me wince, in fact on a few videos I'd fast forward only to see a new plaster a few minutes in and the relief was palpable ;)
I once killed a watch doing brakes. Refitting shoe pull-off springs, slipped and pulled the watch strap off the pin in the watch case. Threaded the strap back round the pin and tapped it over with a hammer. I was never any good with a hammer - so that was the end of that watch. PITY it was quite a good one.
Auto parts salesman here! If you want a heavier duty starter relay/solenoid, ask for a glow plug relay. It's the same thing, just rated for a longer duty cycle. For the old-ish Ford style ones, the part# scheme my store uses is S5049 for the starter relay and GPR11 for the glow plug relay. Continuous duty versions exist, but will be harder to find and likely aren't in stock at a typical auto parts store. Go for something aimed more towards farmers, industrial and fleet customers.
Well, the good news is that even Western produced solenoid switches use steel studs, and not often copper-clad ones! Now, the contacts are a bit dire, certainly lacking substance at any rate. Ultimately though, it is what it is, and it does what it does. If it doesn't do what's expected, then you chuck it out and buy another! Beyond that, its operation is all arse first, but at least it does mean that the same contact pressure is maintained regardless of battery condition! The coil will get hot quite rapidly when there is no starter motor/load to pull down the battery volts - Even then, it's only meant for a few seconds of continuous use.
The arse about faceness means breaking the circuit will be snappy as the armature gets up to speed before hammering the contacts apart - something it may achieve even if they're slightly welded together :)
Back in the early 80's my dad had an FSO Polenez. The starter solenoid stopped working. So we took it apart, to find that the terminals were burned and pitted. This made the contacts unable to pass any current. So we cleaned them up and made 2 copper washers out of some flattened copper tube to shim the contacts out a bit. When refitted the starter worked perfectly. This was because a new starter was about £100 then !
@@millomweb On many newer vehicles you do, because the solenoid is permanently attached to the motor. Usually it's combined with the drive-gear plunger assembly, so that a single coil can serve both functions. A surprising number of those units are actually rebuildable, if you can locate/fabricate the parts. A screwed-together housing is quite helpful in other ways - I normally open up new starters to check for corrosion after receiving a run of DOA replacements. A few minutes with a screwdriver and some sandpaper can save a great deal of hassle exchanging parts.
He had it for 6 years. Towed a caravan reasonably well ( only a 1500cc engine 4speed box ) did about 70k miles in it. We put in a sunroof and an electric cooling fan for the engine. Apart from normal service and wear replacement, we did very little work to it..
Hello Clive, I use these as 'force feedback' for virtual pinball machines. Gives emulation of a pinball coil being fired (especially when screwed into the cab).
When i was a kid, money was tight so replacing a starter relay or solenoid was the last resort, The gm solenoids were easy to take apart, sand paper the contacts and disk. Good as new. The ford relays were riveted together, drill them out and same thing, then a couple screws to hold it back together. When manufacturers started crimping them together that pretty much ended the non destructive disassembly.
Just had to replace one very much like this in my scooter. The starter would not stop turning over until I hit the solenoid or disconnected the battery. Was not ideal. Hope you are having a nice holiday season.
I use this component as part of my spot welder for battery cells. I have a foot switch connected to a programmable relay. I use a motorcycle battery 12v 14Ah. The negative electrode comes right off the battery and the positive electrode is interrupted by this starter relay. And then the programmable relay will trip this relay and make the connection for anywhere from hundreds of a second to seconds. It's a Frankenstein mess from parts I had laying around but it works better than the ones I've paid for.
0:50ish: 'I've already wandered onto a tangent' ...And I learned something, thankyou 😁 I never understood what the difference between volt-amps and watts were, now I do! Thankyou again!
I had a 1960s Triumph car - the original starter solenoid was designed with a rubber dome on the end opposite the contacts, so that you could engage the starter just by pressing the rubber dome and moving the solenoid core directly. Very handy - no need to short the contacts with a spanner. I later had to replace it with a modern part, which of course was designed without that feature in order to save a penny per part.
From wife who is a nurse. In OZ over 60% of blokes that stab a body part with a tool say they could see it going to happen seconds before it did. So fellas, like Clive next time you think it could happen change the way you are going to do it or put on PPE.
A flasher for a vehicle's blinker is interesting to explore. It's a similar package with a relay and a circuit to oscillate faster when a light goes out.
yes, when I was young driving for car service, I had to start my 1987 crown Victoria with the metal clip on my clip board. I also rescued a girl and her 1988 crown Victoria by starting it with a shovel across the terminals.
Clive I reckon that weird filled part in the top of that pin is where they hide the illicit substances on the "special importer" version. I believe it's a "your substance here" arrangement. You provide your substance to the manufacturer and they install and ship it for you.
A good idea to install them with the studs facing down. They fill up quite eagerly with water if there's, like we experienced, a period where the generator had no roof. They do what they are intended for, starter electrics have never been pretty anyway.
Awww, crap. Thanks for reminding me that I have a back window/mirrors heating switch I was supposed to fix during the holidays that isn't making contact at all anymore, that I completely forgot about (and may yet again, by tomorrow)...
“stabment”...? A whole unique word from the “Book of Clive” index of fractured linguistics. Is it an adjective or an adverb...or just gobbledygook? Regardless, it’s brilliant phonetics. Oh yeah, an excellent review of obsolete Chinese junk from the great land of eBay.
I bought a starter solenoid for a liquid-cooled Honda 2 cylinder engine that I bought for a tractor. The OEM unit was about £67 ($90) so I bought one from a junked Japanese motorcycle and made it to work. The starter cost more to rebuild, so I bought new one for it.
clive, on cars the starter relay (solenoid) is on the side of the starter motor and is also used to push the starter gear into the path of the flywheel with a little arm on the side.
@@Broken_Yugo do you have an image? this is the "standard type" i have known for a long time: www.howacarworks.com/illustration/74/pre-engaged-starter.png
@@Francois_Dupont Look one up for something like a 1999 Corolla for an example of the inline solenoid type. I misspoke, they're not all in line, but they're more or less all geared, less weight and copper in a little high speed low torque motor and a reduction drive than the old style direct drive motors. I think Denso might hold a patent on the inline solenoid as they seem to be the only ones building them.
Reminded me of early GM starter solenoids. The cover could be removed and the studs were a "T" design, with 1/2 the "T" making contact with the round copper disc mounted on the solenoid. When the disc & studs would get pitted, you turn the studs 180° clean the disc & away you go. Fords had a sealed switch that couldn't be repaired. Chrysler & most imports were a similar design to the GM.
On a cheap Chinese moped it tends to be the wiring loom and regulator that goes first. Purely down to corrosion. I had to replace my wiring loom three times in three years and the engine three times but that was only to being considerably cheaper than overhauling the engine. Plus you can swap an engine in five minutes
The backyard fix for an old General Motors starter solenoid was similar to what you did, take it apart, flip the copper washer/contact, put it back together and you are good to go.
Used to use a screwdriver to get my old mk2 escort to start. Years ago at the sweet and tender age of 19 I never knew what it why it worked, all I knew was it got it started 😉
Oh man this reminds me of the many times i have tried to pry DC motors apart when i was i child, they have the same type of fold-in locks. I have stabbed my left hand and fingers more time than i can count while doing so.
Genuine Suzuki ones consumes 45W @ 14.5V. They migh have a couple of variants, but a standard for big V-Twins is thereabouts and similarly in size as that one...
Remember that in the style of the haynes manual putting it back together is just a reversal of taking it apart. Not sure if putting the drill in reverse will do it. :)
I prefer that design- the springs force the default condition to "contacts open". I don't know about England but Ford starter relays/solenoids/contactors here in the US have the bad habit of getting stuck "closed". Since most of the time you have to use a screwdriver to get them to close, at least you have a handy tool to whack it with to get it to let go.
The toughest job these solenoids have to do is not the 49cc or even the 150cc GY6 engines, but the tiny starters on the 43cc and 49cc 2 stroke engines. Those tiny starter motors use VERY strong neodymium magnets and windings that are just this side of a short circuit. You should check one of these out if you get a chance, but they are direct drive (no gear reduction) and therefore require attachment to the engine (crankshaft) to run them. They use a magic black box to allow the motor to charge the battery after it starts.
I wonder if they used off cuts from one of the circuit board manufacturers? I’m sure one of them laser or water cuts holes that leave blanks that size, or maybe it’s from a larger hole and it’s mill cut?
Me: What did you do during quarantine? Clive: I disassembled every electronic device in my home and sent it all to Colin Furz who is building a robot which we can use to conquer the world.
The two springs counter balance themselves so only a small current is needed to engage the contacts. That makes me think that this solenoid might engage when you do a jump and land the ATV. Ouch.
Every time you mention stabbing yourself in a video I have flashbacks to an incident involving an electric drill. It was all going well until suddenly I found my finger and a P-clamp wrapped around a bent drill, with blood and bits of skin everywhere, bone exposed, and a fingernail missing. Oddly it didn't even scar, and the nail did grow back. The skin there has always been more fragile since, though. Didn't even really hurt except while I was cleaning it, which puts it far above the incidents involving metal filings and no comparison at all to road rash.
There are some bigger solenoids that should be capable of handling 600 - 1000 Amps according specs. I wonder if these would be useful switches for spotwelders with a big car battery? I tried these but found they tend to stick together on the first or second weld. A good big car battery can deliver in access of 1000 Amps, maybe 2kA for a short time - thats probably too much. Is it better to use high amps power mosfets as switches? You would need at least 6 in parallel for the current. I know such constructions are around for li-ion cell spot welding and seem to work quite well.
@@davidbolha The electrodes look a bit too tiny but they limit the current to something usable. For reproducable spot welds you definetly need a decent timer in the ms-range rather than just a push button. Also would be nice to see his power source here.
I suppose it is configured like that so that on release, the armature can build up speed before impacting on the contact plate thus effecting a rapid break in circuit. Early starter motors were called 'inertia starters' as the pinion gear on the starting motor would slide axially on the motor shaft. A 'reasonable' spring would push the pinion out of mesh with the ring gear on the engine's flywheel. That type, the pinion not only slid on the motor shaft but rotated on a coarse thread. The sudden starting (rotation) of the motor would effectively screw the motor pinion along the motor shaft into mesh with the ring gear (hopefully) whereupon it would start driving the engine. This load/torque to drive the engine keeping the starting motor gear in mesh with the engine. Once the engine is firing and running faster than the starting motor, it would throw the motor pinion out of mesh protecting the motor from being over-revved by the engine. This system worked fine provided that the motor pinion was free to slide and the motor started quickly enough for the inertia of the weight of the pinion pressing against the aforementioned return spring. A flat-ish battery was sometimes the cause of just spinning the starting motor without driving the engine. The sliding action could become stiff from clutch plate material dust getting into the coarse thread - noted by people who slipped the clutch a lot ! In the 1980s, the system was changed. Rather than using inertia, the starter pinion was placed into mesh with the ring gear by a solenoid. The advantage of this was that the motor was not started until the gear was fully in mesh - making a more reliable system. This solenoid is mounted on the side of the starter motor and performs 3 functions. Firstly, engaging the starter pinion with the ring gear, secondly, doing what's shown in this video - and turning the power on to the motor itself and thirdly, turn off the 'start' winding of the solenoid - so if it was held on for a long time, it wouldn't burn out. The solenoid therefore has 2 windings - a high current one to get things moving and a low current one to hold the solenoid in once it had got there. Once the 'ignition key' was released, the solenoid turned off allowing the pinion to disengage with the ring gear and turning the power off to the motor. For anyone who wanted to know. Feel free to ask questions !
Interestingly large coil inside. I would only add that an induction value of the assembled unit and the value of the coil air-core would also be good to know.
You're right I'm sitting here watching your video looking at the cut on my hand small flat top screwdriver to everybody watching this video remember safety rules are written in blood not ink
Hi Big Clive, have you ever looked at how gas flame failure valves work? They are electronic devices but don't have a conventional power supply. Would make an interesting video i think.
Doing the same to open small motor housings to find out what colour winding wire they used as a child 😂 I still have a right angled scar on my finger where I lifted up the flesh to reveal the gristle underneath
Actually the bolts being copper coated steel is better than them being copper. People tend to over tighten these and it is very easy to strip copper bolts. The actual contacts being real copper will serve the purpose well enough, no need for the bolts to be copper too.
With due respect to BC's research methods (which I have employed myself on many occasions), the real challenge is to put it back together and see if it still works!
@@millomweb Cars once had 6 Volt coils and a ballast resistor, the ballast resistor was bypassed when the starter motor was turning. Here is a diesel engine drop from 12 to 10 Volts when the glow plugs are on. th-cam.com/video/mTlU6RTKDLE/w-d-xo.html
did nobody else give a thought as to why there would have been a use for that steel plate mounted on top of the coil? My first hunch would've been that when the coil energized, the coil itself, with the steel plate would hit the back of the studs, (the big flat heads) and do the most of the transfer for the current. The 'weak' spring would keep the coil back from accidentally engaging the solenoid, and the insulator in the cap would help prevent the same effect. i feel that the tiny copper contacts are way too tiny to be able to use for a prolonged time or for more than a few hundred starts.
I wonder if a super magnet would be strong enough to trigger the relay. Replacing a magnet on the bottom of the relay is it enough to pull the rod down. But it looks at a spring it looks like it may be.
For sure it is CCA wire, copper would be too expensive, though I would think that by now even the contacts would have been made from brass plated steel, as the copper cost for the 3 pieces likely was half the manufacturing metal cost.
@@jkobain It's really obvious when you pick up a 305M/1000FT roll of UTP and it weighs about half of what it should that it's copper-clad aluminum. That's even before you attempt to use it and the wire keeps breaking... and in the USA, it is against the electric code to use this stuff inside a wall, even assuming that the cable meets the flammability requirements (it probably does not).
@@brianleeper5737 it is really obvious when it's marked on the cable and on the box too, and on their website - so you know *before* you get to touch or even buy it. Guess if our world is that much proper?)
Clive, you might want to consider a pair of cut resistant gloves. My hands are in so much better shape these days. I usually just wear one on my off hand when holding something and going at it with an exacto blade or screwdriver. I think I paid £3 from eBay for mine.
The relay on my Honda CB 750 motorbike failed circa 1989, the price of a new, original Honda part was outageous so I stripped my old one down. From what I recall the design seems identical except the copper coil was much weightier and more substantial than this thing. In my cack handedness I broke the soldered coil wire ends (to quote AvE "it's already fucked so... etc.) but once cleaned up and polished, I unwound the coil a little to release some fresh wire, bodged it all back together and bugger me, even with my bad soldering I'd fixed it. This, to my memory, is the only Genuine Honda part I have been succesfully able to fix.
I've fixed the "blower motor resistor" which controls the back seat fan on some MDX and Pilot cars. It's actually a transistor on a heatsink with a thermal fuse. I replaced the thermal fuse and then the fan worked again. If you do this yourself be sure to clean the dust filter by the fan or else the lack of airflow will make it overheat again.
@@eDoc2020 I have a peugeot 406 blower resistor awaiting the very repair you describe in amongst the broken artefacts on my "offerings to the almighty electron" shelf.
The chain gloves butchers use are perfect for stabby pry action ! But some cheap ass leather welding gloves also work ok. At least better then nothing...
my only question is: 1.7 AMPS did you say? that seems a LOT of current for just a small contactor.. I've messed around with large tri-phase A/C contactors {capable of hundreds of amps) and yet only drawing around ninety- to 300 miliamps tops... {at 12 volts, rated for 24); I wonder if that coil may be shorted? {now AFTER I read the rest of the desc, I suppose the really short duty cycle may explain things.. guess it would really need the THUMP of torque to pull in/out... I donno- still seems excessive in my opinion)
I'd still feel iffy calling it copper, I've had cheep coils/xfmrs that appeared to have copper wire due to the enamel color when the wire was actually aluminum. What I thought was high temperature solder on them must have actually been some sort of brazing. That said if it were plated it could still be soldered to normally
It appears that some things made in China are actually passing through a good QC check. Not all, but some. Thanks for not giving us the opportunity of seeing how you handle puncture wounds too 😉
A starter solenoid proper is a combination of a contactor and a solenoid with linkage that pulls the starter motor gear into contact with the matching gear teeth on the perimeter of the flywheel.
Wrong. Proper starter is in constant mesh with the crankshaft using a sprag clutch in between. This is the way it is in every Honda engine and their chinese clones and it never breaks. The useless mechanical linkage is what always breaks.
@@bluef1sh926 Nope. Starters with solenoids are disengaged until the solenoid brings the gears into contact. That's what the solenoid is for. I've replaced starters on Japanese, German, and American vehicles from Studebakers, to Mercedes, to Hondas. Watch for yourself..... here's the starter from a Honda. th-cam.com/video/XIupJqiROjg/w-d-xo.html You can see the gear jump away from the motor body to where it would mesh with teeth on the flywheel and then back again on spring return when the motor is unpowered. It's repeated a whole bunch of times. Here's more of an explanation which isn't a Honda but they work the same. th-cam.com/video/6x2hIOtBfzE/w-d-xo.html Motorcycles and ATVs don't have solenoids; instead they use a starter clutch. th-cam.com/video/s45Z6PI8oSU/w-d-xo.html They have motors and a starting relay or contactor, but no real solenoid regardless of what you want to mislabel the relay/contactor as. That's why I started with, "A starter solenoid proper".
@@Peter_S_ Wow, unbelievably irrelevant. First two links are about car starters while the whole talk was about motorcycle/atv starter. There's no linkage there anyway, the stator and rotor are in offset and when starter gets power the magnetic filed moves the rotor sideways to align it to the stator, thus engaging the gear with the flywheel. The third link was the exact think I was talking about, constant mesh starter connected via sprag clutch, so I guess you should read more thoroughly.
@@bluef1sh926 Your commentary was actually the irrelevant part. Did you see I started with "A starter solenoid proper"? Motorcycles have clutches, not solenoids.You've lost the plot. Try reading everything I wrote, but word for word. It's all rather simple.... solenoids turn electrical energy into motion as the output medium. Relays and contactors are the same thing as a contactor is a subtype of relay for large currents, and they both turn smaller electrical inputs into the ability to switch far greater currents. There is no motion component that comes out of a relay or contactor which is why they are not really solenoids even though they contain a solenoid as one of their SUB-COMPONENTS.
![[UNCUT] "บอสณวัฒน์" แฉ! แหล่งซุกเงินแก๊งบอส ขยันผิดที่ไม่กี่ปีก็เข้าคุก l คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ l17ต.ค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BL56qIfXYZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Clive, we like when things go boom, we do not like when things go bloody. Thank you for wearing a glove.
if there's no blood, your just not working ;)
Any good mechanic knows that a properly running engine requires a sacrifice of blood, sweat, and tears. So how are you going to going to make the blood sacrifice necessary without the help of Mr. Stabbystab screwdriver?
Ohhhhh..... Yeah you brought back painful memories of "fixing" worn VW Beetle parts while in my teens. My screwdriver always ended up being Mr. Stabbystab
Ohhh my stabby screwdriver story was one that went towards my eye. So lucky I missed and only ended up with a cut/ bruise beside my eye.
I know someone who was a mechanic, until he put a screwdriver through his hand.
As an ex mechanic watching these makes me wince, in fact on a few videos I'd fast forward only to see a new plaster a few minutes in and the relief was palpable ;)
I once killed a watch doing brakes. Refitting shoe pull-off springs, slipped and pulled the watch strap off the pin in the watch case. Threaded the strap back round the pin and tapped it over with a hammer. I was never any good with a hammer - so that was the end of that watch. PITY it was quite a good one.
Auto parts salesman here! If you want a heavier duty starter relay/solenoid, ask for a glow plug relay. It's the same thing, just rated for a longer duty cycle.
For the old-ish Ford style ones, the part# scheme my store uses is S5049 for the starter relay and GPR11 for the glow plug relay.
Continuous duty versions exist, but will be harder to find and likely aren't in stock at a typical auto parts store. Go for something aimed more towards farmers, industrial and fleet customers.
Ah yes, the stubby-hand trap. I see you’re a fellow veteran of the endless war on irrepairability.
Well, the good news is that even Western produced solenoid switches use steel studs, and not often copper-clad ones! Now, the contacts are a bit dire, certainly lacking substance at any rate. Ultimately though, it is what it is, and it does what it does. If it doesn't do what's expected, then you chuck it out and buy another! Beyond that, its operation is all arse first, but at least it does mean that the same contact pressure is maintained regardless of battery condition! The coil will get hot quite rapidly when there is no starter motor/load to pull down the battery volts - Even then, it's only meant for a few seconds of continuous use.
The arse about faceness means breaking the circuit will be snappy as the armature gets up to speed before hammering the contacts apart - something it may achieve even if they're slightly welded together :)
Op
@@millomweb Now that's thought!
Back in the early 80's my dad had an FSO Polenez. The starter solenoid stopped working. So we took it apart, to find that the terminals were burned and pitted. This made the contacts unable to pass any current. So we cleaned them up and made 2 copper washers out of some flattened copper tube to shim the contacts out a bit. When refitted the starter worked perfectly. This was because a new starter was about £100 then !
Shouldn't have needed to buy a whole new starter just for the solenoid !
The Polenz didn't have a hand throttle AFAIK. But an estate car style FSO did - it was another pull like the choke next to the choke !
@@millomweb On many newer vehicles you do, because the solenoid is permanently attached to the motor. Usually it's combined with the drive-gear plunger assembly, so that a single coil can serve both functions.
A surprising number of those units are actually rebuildable, if you can locate/fabricate the parts. A screwed-together housing is quite helpful in other ways - I normally open up new starters to check for corrosion after receiving a run of DOA replacements. A few minutes with a screwdriver and some sandpaper can save a great deal of hassle exchanging parts.
Oh you were the other person. Personally the engine blew up..............twice and the prop shaft snapped in half.
He had it for 6 years. Towed a caravan reasonably well ( only a 1500cc engine 4speed box ) did about 70k miles in it. We put in a sunroof and an electric cooling fan for the engine. Apart from normal service and wear replacement, we did very little work to it..
Hello Clive, I use these as 'force feedback' for virtual pinball machines. Gives emulation of a pinball coil being fired (especially when screwed into the cab).
lol cool i guess if you ever need more force use the old ford units right neat use for them things
Once used one of these Chinese relais for my Vespa....it worked "twice" then welded itself together...great fun...never again !!!
You're my favorite health & safety guy.
When i was a kid, money was tight so replacing a starter relay or solenoid was the last resort,
The gm solenoids were easy to take apart, sand paper the contacts and disk. Good as new.
The ford relays were riveted together, drill them out and same thing, then a couple screws to hold it back together.
When manufacturers started crimping them together that pretty much ended the non destructive disassembly.
Just had to replace one very much like this in my scooter. The starter would not stop turning over until I hit the solenoid or disconnected the battery. Was not ideal. Hope you are having a nice holiday season.
I use this component as part of my spot welder for battery cells. I have a foot switch connected to a programmable relay. I use a motorcycle battery 12v 14Ah. The negative electrode comes right off the battery and the positive electrode is interrupted by this starter relay. And then the programmable relay will trip this relay and make the connection for anywhere from hundreds of a second to seconds. It's a Frankenstein mess from parts I had laying around but it works better than the ones I've paid for.
0:50ish: 'I've already wandered onto a tangent'
...And I learned something, thankyou 😁 I never understood what the difference between volt-amps and watts were, now I do! Thankyou again!
I had a 1960s Triumph car - the original starter solenoid was designed with a rubber dome on the end opposite the contacts, so that you could engage the starter just by pressing the rubber dome and moving the solenoid core directly. Very handy - no need to short the contacts with a spanner. I later had to replace it with a modern part, which of course was designed without that feature in order to save a penny per part.
That's quite neat. I've never come across that.
I just ordered my first soldering station! You make great videos btw.
From wife who is a nurse. In OZ over 60% of blokes that stab a body part with a tool say they could see it going to happen seconds before it did. So fellas, like Clive next time you think it could happen change the way you are going to do it or put on PPE.
I love how well the scars show in your hand close-ups, as you do the very thing that caused them! :-))))
A flasher for a vehicle's blinker is interesting to explore. It's a similar package with a relay and a circuit to oscillate faster when a light goes out.
The old ones were thermally timed.
@@millomweb I recently took apart both. Thanks to big Clive a take everything apart. Or to bits
Request: bulk power topics, and smart meters on electrical and water services.
yes, when I was young driving for car service, I had to start my 1987 crown Victoria with the metal clip on my clip board. I also rescued a girl and her 1988 crown Victoria by starting it with a shovel across the terminals.
Clive I reckon that weird filled part in the top of that pin is where they hide the illicit substances on the "special importer" version. I believe it's a "your substance here" arrangement. You provide your substance to the manufacturer and they install and ship it for you.
A good idea to install them with the studs facing down.
They fill up quite eagerly with water if there's, like we experienced, a period where the generator had no roof.
They do what they are intended for, starter electrics have never been pretty anyway.
I just bought some toast up stairs with me and now it's gone, isn't it weird how toast just disappears like that....
That's the most random TH-cam comment I've read today.
It is. And so disappointing when you turn round to grab some and it's all gone.
@@bigclivedotcom or grab another knife full of marmite, only to note there's no toast left to spread it on.
Just like the rum is always gone. Right Jack?
Awww, crap. Thanks for reminding me that I have a back window/mirrors heating switch I was supposed to fix during the holidays that isn't making contact at all anymore, that I completely forgot about (and may yet again, by tomorrow)...
Better title for this episode: "Heading the Direction of Stabment"
I remember stabbing myself a few times trying to disassemble a few parts. I am glad a Pro had problems too. I am in good company.
“stabment”...? A whole unique word from the “Book of Clive” index of fractured linguistics. Is it an adjective or an adverb...or just gobbledygook? Regardless, it’s brilliant phonetics. Oh yeah, an excellent review of obsolete Chinese junk from the great land of eBay.
I bought a starter solenoid for a liquid-cooled Honda 2 cylinder engine that I bought for a tractor. The OEM unit was about £67 ($90) so I bought one from a junked Japanese motorcycle and made it to work. The starter cost more to rebuild, so I bought new one for it.
clive, on cars the starter relay (solenoid) is on the side of the starter motor and is also used to push the starter gear into the path of the flywheel with a little arm on the side.
Some gear reduction starters (about all that's used anymore AFAIK) put the solenoid in line with the pinion.
That's the modern type.
@@Broken_Yugo do you have an image? this is the "standard type" i have known for a long time: www.howacarworks.com/illustration/74/pre-engaged-starter.png
@@Francois_Dupont Look one up for something like a 1999 Corolla for an example of the inline solenoid type. I misspoke, they're not all in line, but they're more or less all geared, less weight and copper in a little high speed low torque motor and a reduction drive than the old style direct drive motors. I think Denso might hold a patent on the inline solenoid as they seem to be the only ones building them.
Looks like a simple design so it should be reliable.
Exept that spring looks quite weak for the current it has to deal with. I expect it to burn out quite quickly especially on carburated engines
@@2000jago Yep, very lawnmower style... any extended crank time and it's burning up.
Reminded me of early GM starter solenoids. The cover could be removed and the studs were a "T" design, with 1/2 the "T" making contact with the round copper disc mounted on the solenoid. When the disc & studs would get pitted, you turn the studs 180° clean the disc & away you go. Fords had a sealed switch that couldn't be repaired. Chrysler & most imports were a similar design to the GM.
On a cheap Chinese moped it tends to be the wiring loom and regulator that goes first. Purely down to corrosion. I had to replace my wiring loom three times in three years and the engine three times but that was only to being considerably cheaper than overhauling the engine. Plus you can swap an engine in five minutes
The backyard fix for an old General Motors starter solenoid was similar to what you did, take it apart, flip the copper washer/contact, put it back together and you are good to go.
Another vote for the bathroom extractor fan circuitry. Some interesting old fashioned logic timer 4001be circuits in the standard manrose kits.
Used to use a screwdriver to get my old mk2 escort to start. Years ago at the sweet and tender age of 19 I never knew what it why it worked, all I knew was it got it started 😉
Ahh, the universal ignition key ;)
That brought back memories thank you Clive.
2:26 "Heading in the direction of stabment". Is this wee Rabbie himself making these poetic videos?
Oh man this reminds me of the many times i have tried to pry DC motors apart when i was i child, they have the same type of fold-in locks.
I have stabbed my left hand and fingers more time than i can count while doing so.
I can relate to that but them tiny magnets were soooo worth it
Genuine Suzuki ones consumes 45W @ 14.5V. They migh have a couple of variants, but a standard for big V-Twins is thereabouts and similarly in size as that one...
Remember that in the style of the haynes manual putting it back together is just a reversal of taking it apart. Not sure if putting the drill in reverse will do it. :)
I really appreciate you man, thank you for your calming content.
I really like these kind of videos! "LET'S TAKE IT TO BITS"
Perhaps one day BC will reverse engineer himself.
I like the old school mindset of these solonoids. Will you build it back up later?
Had a VW Bus that spent quite a bit of time needing a screwdriver to help starting.
I prefer that design- the springs force the default condition to "contacts open". I don't know about England but Ford starter relays/solenoids/contactors here in the US have the bad habit of getting stuck "closed". Since most of the time you have to use a screwdriver to get them to close, at least you have a handy tool to whack it with to get it to let go.
It's one of the things with this design. Should the contact weld closed, when the solenoid armature is released, it hammers the contacts open.
Interesting it basically used a balance between the two springs to keep the steel plunger from completing the circuit when off
5:54 - found myself shouting at the screen - "To avoid shorting the battery" ?
Yeah sometimes the things that stump Clive remind me of "Blues Clues" where even a five-year-old is screaming the answers at the screen.
The toughest job these solenoids have to do is not the 49cc or even the 150cc GY6 engines, but the tiny starters on the 43cc and 49cc 2 stroke engines. Those tiny starter motors use VERY strong neodymium magnets and windings that are just this side of a short circuit. You should check one of these out if you get a chance, but they are direct drive (no gear reduction) and therefore require attachment to the engine (crankshaft) to run them. They use a magic black box to allow the motor to charge the battery after it starts.
c.f. 'dynastart'
Merry Christmas. Always enjoy your posts.
tried to build a supercapacitor based spotwelder with one of those, worked quite well the bottleneck really was more the capacitor bank.
Copper plated steel, found this to be the case in many automotive electrical components labeled Wilson.
Wouldn't the fiberglass also help to prevent corrosion between the steel and copper?
They fit these on Lexmotos and the high current draw can melt the starter switch. And the solenoids fail with monotonous regularity.
Normal solenoids in vehicle starters dont have any silver tabs at the contacts, they are just copper
I remember the day when the solenoid was a separate item ! Err, like this one !
I wonder if they used off cuts from one of the circuit board manufacturers? I’m sure one of them laser or water cuts holes that leave blanks that size, or maybe it’s from a larger hole and it’s mill cut?
Me: What did you do during quarantine?
Clive: I disassembled every electronic device in my home and sent it all to Colin Furz who is building a robot which we can use to conquer the world.
The two springs counter balance themselves so only a small current is needed to engage the contacts. That makes me think that this solenoid might engage when you do a jump and land the ATV. Ouch.
Every time you mention stabbing yourself in a video I have flashbacks to an incident involving an electric drill.
It was all going well until suddenly I found my finger and a P-clamp wrapped around a bent drill, with blood and bits of skin everywhere, bone exposed, and a fingernail missing. Oddly it didn't even scar, and the nail did grow back. The skin there has always been more fragile since, though.
Didn't even really hurt except while I was cleaning it, which puts it far above the incidents involving metal filings and no comparison at all to road rash.
There are some bigger solenoids that should be capable of handling 600 - 1000 Amps according specs. I wonder if these would be useful switches for spotwelders with a big car battery? I tried these but found they tend to stick together on the first or second weld. A good big car battery can deliver in access of 1000 Amps, maybe 2kA for a short time - thats probably too much. Is it better to use high amps power mosfets as switches? You would need at least 6 in parallel for the current. I know such constructions are around for li-ion cell spot welding and seem to work quite well.
Bingo ! 😇👇
th-cam.com/video/o1NFbchHeM8/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/b_kGgPVrcCI/w-d-xo.html
@@davidbolha The electrodes look a bit too tiny but they limit the current to something usable. For reproducable spot welds you definetly need a decent timer in the ms-range rather than just a push button. Also would be nice to see his power source here.
I suppose it is configured like that so that on release, the armature can build up speed before impacting on the contact plate thus effecting a rapid break in circuit.
Early starter motors were called 'inertia starters' as the pinion gear on the starting motor would slide axially on the motor shaft. A 'reasonable' spring would push the pinion out of mesh with the ring gear on the engine's flywheel. That type, the pinion not only slid on the motor shaft but rotated on a coarse thread. The sudden starting (rotation) of the motor would effectively screw the motor pinion along the motor shaft into mesh with the ring gear (hopefully) whereupon it would start driving the engine. This load/torque to drive the engine keeping the starting motor gear in mesh with the engine. Once the engine is firing and running faster than the starting motor, it would throw the motor pinion out of mesh protecting the motor from being over-revved by the engine.
This system worked fine provided that the motor pinion was free to slide and the motor started quickly enough for the inertia of the weight of the pinion pressing against the aforementioned return spring. A flat-ish battery was sometimes the cause of just spinning the starting motor without driving the engine. The sliding action could become stiff from clutch plate material dust getting into the coarse thread - noted by people who slipped the clutch a lot !
In the 1980s, the system was changed. Rather than using inertia, the starter pinion was placed into mesh with the ring gear by a solenoid. The advantage of this was that the motor was not started until the gear was fully in mesh - making a more reliable system. This solenoid is mounted on the side of the starter motor and performs 3 functions. Firstly, engaging the starter pinion with the ring gear, secondly, doing what's shown in this video - and turning the power on to the motor itself and thirdly, turn off the 'start' winding of the solenoid - so if it was held on for a long time, it wouldn't burn out. The solenoid therefore has 2 windings - a high current one to get things moving and a low current one to hold the solenoid in once it had got there. Once the 'ignition key' was released, the solenoid turned off allowing the pinion to disengage with the ring gear and turning the power off to the motor.
For anyone who wanted to know.
Feel free to ask questions !
In terms of stabbing yourself I can recommend against stripping flex by nibbling down it with the plato sinps.... Those things are sharp!
Tested one of these as an AC switch on a lamp and it works. Of course DC controlled.
Why wouldn't it, it doesn't care what it's switching, it only cares about how it's controlled. Why tho? You can buy mains relays cheaper.
@@bluef1sh926 For low amps sure you can... For high ac amps this is cheaper.
The coil in these is just suited to brief use. It draws a lot of current.
do those solar devices with the single rechargable AA batteries in the oval base
Interestingly large coil inside. I would only add that an induction value of the assembled unit and the value of the coil air-core would also be good to know.
Excellent. Now reassemble it.
You're right I'm sitting here watching your video looking at the cut on my hand small flat top screwdriver to everybody watching this video remember safety rules are written in blood not ink
Did he touch that central dome contact with a magnet? Is it copper?
This channel is the best... Happy New year winners 💐🌹
Hi Big Clive, have you ever looked at how gas flame failure valves work? They are electronic devices but don't have a conventional power supply. Would make an interesting video i think.
They usually use a thermocouple to generate a low voltage that is enough to hold a simple magnetic valve in.
Doing the same to open small motor housings to find out what colour winding wire they used as a child 😂 I still have a right angled scar on my finger where I lifted up the flesh to reveal the gristle underneath
Actually the bolts being copper coated steel is better than them being copper. People tend to over tighten these and it is very easy to strip copper bolts. The actual contacts being real copper will serve the purpose well enough, no need for the bolts to be copper too.
5:37 I know being on the Isle of Man you’re nearer the USA than I am but Alooominummm 🤦🏻♂️😘
I like to throw an americanism in from time to time.
@@bigclivedotcom It's an "alternate" word. (Americans can't spell "alternative" so they use a similar word with a different meaning.)
With due respect to BC's research methods (which I have employed myself on many occasions), the real challenge is to put it back together and see if it still works!
Almost everything goes back together after a video has been made.
6 Volt bikes are decades ago. The 12 Volt battery may drop several Volts while cranking the starter.
It shouldn't ;)
@@millomweb Cars once had 6 Volt coils and a ballast resistor, the ballast resistor was bypassed when the starter motor was turning. Here is a diesel engine drop from 12 to 10 Volts when the glow plugs are on. th-cam.com/video/mTlU6RTKDLE/w-d-xo.html
@@dundeemink3847 I'm aware of 6V systems but battery voltage shouldn't drop several volts when the starter's being used.
did nobody else give a thought as to why there would have been a use for that steel plate mounted on top of the coil?
My first hunch would've been that when the coil energized, the coil itself, with the steel plate would hit the back of the studs, (the big flat heads) and do the most of the transfer for the current.
The 'weak' spring would keep the coil back from accidentally engaging the solenoid, and the insulator in the cap would help prevent the same effect.
i feel that the tiny copper contacts are way too tiny to be able to use for a prolonged time or for more than a few hundred starts.
I wonder if a super magnet would be strong enough to trigger the relay. Replacing a magnet on the bottom of the relay is it enough to pull the rod down. But it looks at a spring it looks like it may be.
It has a metal shell, but it could be worth a go.
@@bigclivedotcom if it works you could almost use it as a magnetic switch. one that could handle a pretty good amount of amperage.
Clive, you didn't check the coil wire to see if it was copper clad aluminium.
For sure it is CCA wire, copper would be too expensive, though I would think that by now even the contacts would have been made from brass plated steel, as the copper cost for the 3 pieces likely was half the manufacturing metal cost.
I hate when they sell copper-clad aluminium or copper-clad steel UTP cables for networking purposes, damn!
Was thinking about the CCA as well. Very little solid copper wire coming from China these days.
@@jkobain It's really obvious when you pick up a 305M/1000FT roll of UTP and it weighs about half of what it should that it's copper-clad aluminum. That's even before you attempt to use it and the wire keeps breaking... and in the USA, it is against the electric code to use this stuff inside a wall, even assuming that the cable meets the flammability requirements (it probably does not).
@@brianleeper5737 it is really obvious when it's marked on the cable and on the box too, and on their website - so you know *before* you get to touch or even buy it.
Guess if our world is that much proper?)
Clive, you might want to consider a pair of cut resistant gloves. My hands are in so much better shape these days. I usually just wear one on my off hand when holding something and going at it with an exacto blade or screwdriver. I think I paid £3 from eBay for mine.
How many times have you had to edit out a litany of curses?
Yeah sometimes the things that stump Clive remind me of "Blues Clues" where even a five-year-old is screaming the answers at the screen. LOL
The relay on my Honda CB 750 motorbike failed circa 1989, the price of a new, original Honda part was outageous so I stripped my old one down. From what I recall the design seems identical except the copper coil was much weightier and more substantial than this thing. In my cack handedness I broke the soldered coil wire ends (to quote AvE "it's already fucked so... etc.) but once cleaned up and polished, I unwound the coil a little to release some fresh wire, bodged it all back together and bugger me, even with my bad soldering I'd fixed it. This, to my memory, is the only Genuine Honda part I have been succesfully able to fix.
I've fixed the "blower motor resistor" which controls the back seat fan on some MDX and Pilot cars. It's actually a transistor on a heatsink with a thermal fuse. I replaced the thermal fuse and then the fan worked again.
If you do this yourself be sure to clean the dust filter by the fan or else the lack of airflow will make it overheat again.
@@eDoc2020 I have a peugeot 406 blower resistor awaiting the very repair you describe in amongst the broken artefacts on my "offerings to the almighty electron" shelf.
What gloves are they? I'm in the market for some good anti stabby protection!
These are just standard work gloves. Portwest A710
The chain gloves butchers use are perfect for stabby pry action ! But some cheap ass leather welding gloves also work ok. At least better then nothing...
I have both a very large and a very small flat-head screwdriver which get used quite regularly... But never, ever on actual screws!
'being a bear I never learn' :-)
I think you'd call it a contactor depending on how far east into Europe you are
I added an Air Horn to my Bike, but the first time I used it the spring under the switch/button over-heated and was never the same again :(
my only question is: 1.7 AMPS did you say? that seems a LOT of current for just a small contactor.. I've messed around with large tri-phase A/C contactors {capable of hundreds of amps) and yet only drawing around ninety- to 300 miliamps tops... {at 12 volts, rated for 24); I wonder if that coil may be shorted? {now AFTER I read the rest of the desc, I suppose the really short duty cycle may explain things.. guess it would really need the THUMP of torque to pull in/out... I donno- still seems excessive in my opinion)
"stabment" ...need to add that to my dictionary...:)
I'd still feel iffy calling it copper, I've had cheep coils/xfmrs that appeared to have copper wire due to the enamel color when the wire was actually aluminum. What I thought was high temperature solder on them must have actually been some sort of brazing. That said if it were plated it could still be soldered to normally
if it wasnt a stuck solenoid it was brushes not in contact... a 2 foot length of 2x4 was my go to solution. easily stored in the pickup box.
Youth trip to Germany in the 80s. Being friendly with the coach driver, I was the one asked to hold the key on while he went to hit the starter.
It appears that some things made in China are actually passing through a good QC check. Not all, but some. Thanks for not giving us the opportunity of seeing how you handle puncture wounds too 😉
Copper or copper coated aluminium?
I tested. It's copper.
Love your videos Clive!
Ofcourse it's insulator, i saw it at first and looked what crazy drilling bigclive is doing :D Nice video!
Ive got a nightcore tiki that i bought and it came on and stayed on wouldn't turn off do you want it
Did you get a refund or replacement?
Also be mindful of where you got it. Ebay and most of the sites are flooded with fake nightcore
Why does it need 3 amps!! Is it because of the voltage drop when running the starting motor wouldn't disconnect the relay entering in a loop?
It may be for universal 6V 12V use.
A starter solenoid proper is a combination of a contactor and a solenoid with linkage that pulls the starter motor gear into contact with the matching gear teeth on the perimeter of the flywheel.
Wrong. Proper starter is in constant mesh with the crankshaft using a sprag clutch in between. This is the way it is in every Honda engine and their chinese clones and it never breaks. The useless mechanical linkage is what always breaks.
@@bluef1sh926 Nope. Starters with solenoids are disengaged until the solenoid brings the gears into contact. That's what the solenoid is for. I've replaced starters on Japanese, German, and American vehicles from Studebakers, to Mercedes, to Hondas. Watch for yourself..... here's the starter from a Honda. th-cam.com/video/XIupJqiROjg/w-d-xo.html You can see the gear jump away from the motor body to where it would mesh with teeth on the flywheel and then back again on spring return when the motor is unpowered. It's repeated a whole bunch of times. Here's more of an explanation which isn't a Honda but they work the same. th-cam.com/video/6x2hIOtBfzE/w-d-xo.html Motorcycles and ATVs don't have solenoids; instead they use a starter clutch. th-cam.com/video/s45Z6PI8oSU/w-d-xo.html They have motors and a starting relay or contactor, but no real solenoid regardless of what you want to mislabel the relay/contactor as. That's why I started with, "A starter solenoid proper".
@@Peter_S_ Wow, unbelievably irrelevant. First two links are about car starters while the whole talk was about motorcycle/atv starter. There's no linkage there anyway, the stator and rotor are in offset and when starter gets power the magnetic filed moves the rotor sideways to align it to the stator, thus engaging the gear with the flywheel. The third link was the exact think I was talking about, constant mesh starter connected via sprag clutch, so I guess you should read more thoroughly.
@@bluef1sh926 Your commentary was actually the irrelevant part. Did you see I started with "A starter solenoid proper"? Motorcycles have clutches, not solenoids.You've lost the plot. Try reading everything I wrote, but word for word. It's all rather simple.... solenoids turn electrical energy into motion as the output medium. Relays and contactors are the same thing as a contactor is a subtype of relay for large currents, and they both turn smaller electrical inputs into the ability to switch far greater currents. There is no motion component that comes out of a relay or contactor which is why they are not really solenoids even though they contain a solenoid as one of their SUB-COMPONENTS.
happy holidays clive hope all it well 👍🇨🇦
Watts for DC VA only sensibly used regarding AC
The reason for the filament in the plunger is to prevent shorting it out when it is off.
Edit: I see you found the reason.
oh. I have cleaned a lot! of those kinds. for burn marks
When did scott manley start making mechanical videos? 🤔
These starter solenoids are also used in space rockets.
Is the coil would with copper wire, or aluminum/aluminium?
I scraped it and it appeared to be solid copper.