What I found interesting about Malifaux's resolution system is that it isn't just "another kind of random". By doing it with a standar playing card deck (or a proprietary one that's the same just with other symbols) you have an additional layer of control over the checks, since you have a hand from which you can decide to exchange the card in any flip to have better chances to succeed. And the suits add a second layer to the checks, since those can be used to activate special abilities. I find the overall system to be more interesting than just plain rolling dice, since each check is more involved than just comparing what you rolled against a target number. The game as a whole may not be the best there is, but that resolution system is definitely the best I know on these kind of games.
The hand of cards also allows you to bluff and essentially card count. When there's a finite number of times you can see any number it adds a really interesting angle and really ramps up the tension
Of course we love what we love, but I totally recommend you give a shot to Malifaux. All the things you mentioned you liked in other games, you can find in this one (in my opinion). Great models, great lore, feels like chess, alternating activations + much less dependent on luck because of the card mechanic (and how you have cards in your hand as a resource to replace bad flips).
Jon is officially NOT ALLOWED to complain about GW prices after spending so much money on Kingdom Death. $350 for 26 minis, rules, cards and tokens is WAAAAYYY worse than GW pricing.
I think some GW stuff is really well priced, such as the 2017 Necromunda box set at about $100 for 20 minis and (almost) the entire wargame! And the game, lore, and models are really good. Also, Blood Bowl 2016 is about $100 for the same kind of thing, and you can get lots of those new $150 40k and Sigmar boxsets or whatever and they give you more than 26 minis; in fact, the cheaper 40k models are $3 each if you get the right kits, so that's 100 models for $300, roughly speaking.
@@TheClassicWorld some of the models in the KD box is quite large and detailed. 1 model isnt necessarily the equal of another. The dark uprising necromunda box for 290 comes close to the KD box and that one has 30 models terrain and allows 2 players to duke it out whereas KD is a 4 player coop. We are comparing 2 different products here.
well the phoenix is about the size of a greater demon that goes for 140 dollars if i set GW store to USA and the watcher is demon prince sized so that is another 40 dollars. and then you need a rulebook and a codex and the 2 models for 180 dollars isnt a playable army etc etc. but lets instead compare it to necromunda dark uprising that is on sale for 290 on GWs homepage with all you need to play a game for 2 players. KD is a 4 player coop so 60 dollars more for 2 additional players isnt horrendus. KD is the best of my kickstarter games and we have had a lot of fun with it. I have gotten my moneys worth out of it. Pricing is comparable.
@@dmeep Necromunda I think is GWs most expensive boxed game. Warcry, Kill Team, Blackstone Fortress and Underworlds are all boxed games that are half the price of Necromunda. Obviously value based on "how fun is it" is subjective and I'm glad you got your moneys worth from Kingdon Death. Based on "what you get in the box" Blackstone Fortress is probably the closest comparison made by GW and it's half the price of KD. In my opinion KD is way overpriced for what you get in the box.
@@adfdasdfadfadsfareae Really? Do tell. I hadn't noticed. Thank you for educating me on aspects of technology I've not been using for 30 years. Snark aside, I find the childish glee that a 43ish year old man takes in discussing his bowel movements on a hobby podcast disturbing. Don't get me wrong - I like Jon's solo videos, and I like Scott's solo videos. However, when the two of them are together, their collective behavior drops too often into the range of 8 year old for my tastes.
Warcry is pretty great! The ruleset is clean and fast, but the activation system and the ability system gives it just enough depth for me. There is a lot of innovation in what they do beyond the basics - there's a strong sense of narrative and there are tons of cool ways to play it, different scenarios, game modes. Give it a try, Scott!
Oh man! Awesome to hear love for the Middle Earth SBG! The only game that ever held my attention long term, would love to see some lord of the rings content!
So glad to see Jazza promoting miniature painting. He's the reason I went looking for you guys many moons ago. Looked like something I could share with my grandson. Been enjoying the many sculpts and paint tips since.
Good episode! However, a small correction, Warmachine and Hordes aren't dead games, obviously, they aren't as big as they were before, but both are still going, PP still releases models, and rule-wise the games are better than ever.
The game really dependent on where you are. Here in the UK its really really struggling and the community has more or less boiled away all the casual players to leave a "competition only" crowed. Plus supply, quality issues and the shear number of models is just hurting everything. The game IS great. Its an amazing game actually. But its hurt by its own company and community.
@@Faceonthewall Sadly, community issues are mostly true for every wargame but GW games. These issues don't affect me that much because I've always played with same small clique of players. Anyway, I have the feeling that the more games there are and the easier it is to learn and buy new games, the less variety people play to. GW is reaching monopoly levels :(
Don’t get stuck playing games with subpar rules just because you like the models! As a follow up discussion, you guys should consider trying out some miniature agnostic games that already fit with your collections. Frostgrave was one you mentioned, and coming out very soon next year with a sci-fi theme is Stargrave. There is a fun ruleset, which works with most AoS armies, called Warlords of Erehwon. And for infinity and necrommunda models, there’s a cyberpunk ruleset called Reality’s edge which I own but haven’t been able to play before covid hit, but it looks really cool.
Agreed. Generally speaking, for companies that make miniatures, the game rules are not their main product, and are really only there to sell more minis. It’s also why you end up with things like codex creep. Companies that just focus on rules will almost always be better because they’re just focused on making a fun game.
As a huge fan of BattleTech myself, I can honestly say the new plastic models from the Clan Invasion Kickstarter looks beautiful and worth collecting, though I always do have a soft spot for the Metal BattleTech minis from Ral Partha/Iron Wind Metals, its just takes awhile to let the designs grow on you, even their Combat Vehicles and the Aerospace fighters, has that real world military look to them.
My favorite thing about Frostgrave is that the rules say specifically to use any models you want. It really brings a lot of joy knowing you really like every model in your crew.
Also, you guys should stream or make a joint video on playing the game. You could pick it up quick. Hell, BMC plays if you want to do a meet-up with him.
Seeing John explain Scotts miniature and the premise of the video just by using the cool glasses! That is a professional artist explaining at work there! Respect for John just skyrocketed! Also kudos to Scott on the amazing miniature painting!
Today was a good news, bad news situation for me. Bad news: it's Monday and I have to work and start a new week. Good news: a new episode of Scott & Jon talking about food and minis!
In Middle Earth SBG there are different phases and both sides complete each phase before the next phase begins. the player with priority (initiative) goes first in the move phase, the the other player, then the player wit priority shoots, then the other player and then there's the fight phase were the player with priority chooses the combats (this can be important as surrounded models are easier to woun). But there are also heroic actions where heroes can expend "might points" to change the course of, for example, to movement phase to get an advantage (like stopping cavalry charges). There have been a few changes over the years. you now have to deploy in warbands in the beginning and depending on the theme of your army there are army bonuses. There are also new heroic actions that make the game more interesting. Just start the game guys, it's really nice.
Based on what I heard yall talking about I think yall Might enjoy Kings of War alot Also something that came out this year that needs some love because the models are dope Af and im hype for it * just ordered the starter set is Conquest the last argument of Kings by Para bellum
Yeah, you guys definitely need to check out Frostgrave! You can even divest it from the frozen city environment and just run it wherever else you think is aesthetically pleasing too (dark forest, sandy tombs, quarantined magical city, or tropical islands). The objective-based nature of the game is what makes it so good, along with the very simple monster AI.
I need to go through and listen still. But curious to hear how Malifaux only got C tier. Have you guys played M3e yet? Its every bit as streamlined as Guild Ball was. The game is also still super alive with an entire new faction dropping. The new streamlined ruleset is right up there with guild ball as my favorite miniatures ruleset. They also nerfed the jokers a bit to make it a little less swingy.
It's dead in my area. The mishandled year long beta leak, and the Dead Man's Hand move to kill half the Masters my friend and I had ruined it. The two stores that had organized play don't anymore, both Henchman in the area quit playing as well.
Good stuff Guild Ball borrows a good amount fom Warmachine and Hordes. If you love Guild Ball you may really enjoy WM/H. It is like MTG and chess thrown into a mini wargame.
I have minis to paint, but I can't prime them with my rattlecan because it hasn't stopped raining for a few weeks now, and it won't stop until it starts snowing. What's your advice on how I should go about prepping my models for painting? More info: I'm using clear plastic bases, and the plastics are multicoloured, some are dark green, others are dark blue, and some are off-white, and some are pewter, thus the need to prime them all the same grey so that I can paint them to fit into my army.
Speaking of GW games I feel like they largely succeed on the strength of their setting which may be why they remain popular even when the rules aren't so great.
I just got onto eBay, with the intention of selling minis....I have since bought two Betrayal at Calth sets, a Warhammer 5th Edition starter set, Bretonnian Knights, Empire Knights, Empire Battalion.....and I have only listed a few items.
Great episode for sure. What i will say, for some of aspects of AoS that Scott isn't a huge fan of, I enjoy. Also, im curious.. did the Khorne player not explain the blood tithe points before the game? 🤔 In all of the games I've played (about 10) we've always gone over what our lists do, so there isn't those gotcha moments (or they are less) but regardless, I can see how that would be a feel bad. 🤔
In a previous episode you talked about getting adepticon tattoos. I'm a professional tattooer in west bend wisconsin, which is definitely on the way from sam's house to vince's. It'll slow down that 10 hour drive, but it's a good idea to get a vince tat on your way to his house.
Also the newest wave of releases for song are beautiful the rose knights and dragons look great, also the middle Earth battle game is just like a 5th edition or something
Middle Earth SBG is definitely A tier for me. The game mechanism itself is so engaging and its rules match the lore so fittingly. I mostly love the older metal miniatures, so I mostly skip the plastic new ones. Most importantly the game is alive and growing atm. You guys should give it a try and look at the legendary legions and/or battle companies. I agree with your take on Underworlds, I was introduced to miniatures because of said game but eventually got bored and the moment I saw Middle Earth Sbg I gave it up. If not for MESBG I would have looked for AoS but the rules are so much more fun comparatively imo and the lore for me is so much better perhaps for nostalgic reasons but also it’s a more medieval fantasy setting, which I prefer. Definitely recommend it, lots of fun!
Talking about the list-building and MOBA drafting comparison, Kill Team has that turned to 11, but most people don't pay attention to it. It's the one GW game where list tailoring is encouraged. You have 20 models on your roster, then when you find out your opponent's faction and roster, and it's THEN that you build your 100 or 125 point list.
Little late to the video. I love what you guys do. Good on you Jon for picking Infinity and in a high tier too. The 4th edition is really streamlined and, as you said, is really fun and dynamic. Scott, maybe give it another chance, the models are awesome. I would jump over the moon if you guys had more Infinity on your channels. Pozdrawiam!
You guys should give Battletech a shot! Specifically Alpha Strike, it is a fast playing medium army size game using big stompy tanks piloted by a futuristic version of noble knights, crusading for their lord's glory. The game is set starting in the year 3025 and has expansions for both pre and post 3025 eras with different technology, characters, and deep lore available. The game was created in 1984 and is now in a major overhaul and renaissance with new writers, artwork, and rules. I've been playing since 1993 and I LOVE painting and assembling the minis and playing the game with friends! I even got my wife into it and she loves it!
I LOVE that because I grew up in Kenosha I have very similar memories. Gurnee Mills was the junk! I keep wondering if we would been in there at the same time. I'm 30 so it's possible! Also WHFB will always be my #1. BUT I did love 40k 3rd edition.
@@Miniac Yea, it was very sad for the 3 years or whatever where we had to go all the way to like Palatine or wherever it was in Northern Chicago. But I have great memories of playing at the store in Pleasant prairie.
I think you all would really enjoy the community of kings of war because of how much the painting aspect and diorama aspect of the game is encouraged. That and just the fact it is an easy and tight rule system to learn.
This was fun to listen to! Personaly I really like warcry due to it's replayability. We've been playing with the campagin encounter options and even though we know our factions through and through how they work you still cant judge who'll win the encounter. Contrast this this with 40k, which I really like, turn one you usually know who's going to win and aside from like crusade there is not much you can do to change it.
This one surprised me. If it's D-tier, why did he convince his friends to all get into it and help them with their lists? It also has all the factions rules together, which helps with that gotcha from a book you don't own.
1:09:00 - When you guys mentioned Blood Bowl and how there weren't certain teams, don't forget to expand your horizon past just what GW offers and look at the 3rd party teams. There are some 3rd party teams that make the GW stuff look mediocre, can come in cheaper for a full roster than the GW stuff, and have unique sculpts for every player (unlike GW who duplicates a lot of the players). For instance, a relatively recent Kickstarter from Fellowship Games that had Khemri, Vampire and Necromantic teams available, which extra options allowing you to convert at least the Necromantic team into an Undead team: www.kickstarter.com/projects/fellowshipgames/vampires-egyptians-and-necromancers-for-fantasy-football/description or the stuff from Greebo, which while is a bit more expensive, has some amazing looking fully customizable teams or individual players (if you want to build a team with specific models): www.greebo-games.com/31-fantasy-football A lot of 3rd party companies have gotten better at making miniatures for Blood Bowl over the time when GW had abandoned Blood Bowl (before they came back to it).
Damn, when Scott said Gurnee mills it took me back when I lived not far from Gurnee. When I was a lot younger Gurnee used to be the best but not so much last time I visited my hometown.
Mordheim is my favorite tabletop wargame, as it is a mixture of miniature tabletop gaming and a tabletop RPG. It's great to tell awesome stories in epic campaigns, where you see your heroes/units grow and cripple at the same time. It's amazing. And there's still an amazing community out there, with tons of scenarios. And it's so easy to build a warband and so fun to customize them. And Infinity is a great game. It's super technical and has a high skill ceiling. It's not casual enough for me, but I recognize it's superiority.
A- Marvel Crisis Protocol - such a fun game with alt activation and near endless team comps built from the Marvel Comics roster B- Frost Grave - just fun C- X Wing - not perfect but very fun and get to use space combat D- Legion - Obi Wan nuff said
By "Space combat" you mean a 2D version of aircraft combat then you're closer to being correct. If you want to see examples of what space combat would most likely look like watch the ship to ship combat of "Babylon 5" or "The Expanse".
@@Winterydee The issue with adding a 3rd Dimension to "airplane" games is that it adds a level of complexity that may scare a lot of people if your goal is to make a mass market game. Check your Six and Flight Leader are 3D plane fighting game but they are not for the casual gamer. Not saying that it would not be possible but it adds an whole new level of complexity and mental brain drain, thinking in 3D is exausting as hell when plannign your moves!
@@cyagen9782 - I posted that late last night and I think ce off a little saltier than it should be. I think most of that salt is due to my own issues with Star Wars. I love the original trilogy... an the dogfighting of fighters is very cinematic but is based off of aerial warfare not how space warfare would work. Capital ship warfare in the movies tends to mimic naval ocean warfare instead of space warfare again. So my issue is not with the game, that it just trying to recreate the imagery of the dogfighting from the movies. My issue is with the source material and the poor depiction of space movement and warfare. But in the end I must remember that Star Wars is more of a Space Fantasy than it is a Science Fiction based franchise. Again sorry for any saltiness.
@@Winterydee no need to apologises, you were making valid points as my only way to answer them was from a game design perspective. As for the space combats in SW, Lucas opening said that they were inspired by the WW2 action movies like the old batltle of midway movie...and yes B5 is superior to every other sci-fi outthere and influenced the way TV series are written, with deep long arcs, hell it is one of the main influence on the MCU 10 years story arc! JMS iS GOD (and wrote the first Thor)!!! ;)
@Jon, did you play Underworlds in season 1? I feel like by mid season 2, there were enough cards and strategies around to make the deckbuilding customization a lot more intricate than it sounds like you experienced. I've also seen both complete wargame novices and veterans pick up and enjoy Underworlds, so its been a big hit with my gaming circle.
Warmahordes had so many chocha moments, I tried to get into it at 4 different stores across two different states, never had a good time. The middle earth strategy battle game is awesome to run scenarios to recreate scenes from the movies and books, the 1v1 army mode is much less interesting.
Good episode again! Don't sell blood bowl short (it has Wood Elves and Vampires). Started it this year and it's likely the best game GW ever made (in my and quite a few other people's opinion ;) The rules are tight, there IS a lot of tactics involved and the team development really is the cherry on top of the cake. Also, 2-3h games that can be played in a bar while having a pint or two is nice.
I am shocked with how not-triggered i am with this list. With one exception. I want to make the case for malifaux being at least b tier. The date deck mechanic is exceptional. It is not the same at all as having a 54 sided die. As you use cards they cannot come up again until the deck is shuffled so the chance you can achieve what you want changes all the time and if you're galaxy brained you can track both your and your opponents cards. Having a hand of cards allows you to sometimes know for sure you can pull off some incredible plays. You can make hail mary shots that are really cool and cinematic and actually have a chance of doing it. To use a 40k analogy, we've all had a time when the storm bolter on the rhino is your last chance to kill the daemon Prince etc. In malifaux you have so much more influence over plays like this. The alternating turn sequence inherently adds some balance and you can react to your opponent without just getting steamrolled in 1 turn. It was one of the first to do secret objectives which allows you to bluff and adds so much tension. I've never been more on edge than the closing turns of a malifaux game. Also your crew can get wiped out and you can still win if you achieved your objectives. The main con with it is that each model has a lot of specific rules and synergies so you really need to know your opponent's crew. It's an amazing game with very little investment required and everyone should try it
Warmachine/Hordes are the same game and are kinda dead kinda not. They are still getting new models and rules updates but PP has lost the support of FLGs the world over so it's hard to find groups for it. Still a fun game to play. It's most alive version is a community driven smaller army rule-set called "Brawlmachine." Their new game Warcaster: Neo-mechanika is even better imo. It plays like an RTS with each player spawning in units from their list every turn. It's very compelling IMO. You guys also might like the models for Riot Quest (a casual appealing miniatures board game) and Monsterpocalypse (kaiju smashing up a city game).
Damn, Scott, my WHFB experience was THE EXACT same as yours. I was the highschool freshmen playing against the old guys, because all my friends had space marines and imperial guard and I thought it was boring. I gave my 40k friends shit that they were playing checkers and I was playing chess (whfb). I lost almost every game but I still to this day remember so many amazingly epic moments from those games. Muh nostalgia.
I WISH AoS had options for weapons. Most of the time now in AoS if your battle line has a difference in weapons, it's usually just the difference between rend 1 or 2 in reach.
S tier reserved for Marvel Crisis Protocol. Great mini's, all the lore, Ability to make any team you want, clean and simple rules but with mariana trench levels of depth and finally the best list building format. Seriously its so simple (no points just select the cards) and for new people easy to pick just the ones for your affiliation (avengers etc) but when you start to think about how it works in the game it gives you the most in depth thought process of how it can play out due to all the possible options.
Whenever I play Age of Sigmar or 40k, every game I always zone out and it just feels I get close enough, pick the attack with the most dice, and just, I'm grinding down dice I'm rolling. Roll to hit, shrink the die pool, roll to wound, shrink the die pool. Then my opponent rolls armor save. I never feel anything else when I play. I'm in love with Song of Ice and Fire though. Very similar roll set to Age of Sigmar, but the fact that flanking, unit positioning is so important, and the alternating turns based on a unit by unit bases just makes the game so much more exciting for me.
You should give Kings of war a shot, I must admit to being a bit of a fanboy bannerwaver but there's a reason. You can use whatever minis you have now, and it's all about tactical play. There is good balance, good movement systems, and great modelling opportunities through multibasing. You can also download the base rules for free from Mantics website, it's a free product in their shop
@@saulsmith2939 I've been looking into the game, and I must say I'm intrigued. But sadly there are zero groups around me that play it. I'm already having a hard enough time getting people to play song of ice and fire haha. If you are not playing warhammer around here, you are not playing. But I might pick up two armies and force a couple people to play. Those abyssal dwarfs call to me.
@@BlackLegion1616 whereabouts are you? There's a group on FB called Kings of war fanatics and there's players all over the place. Also there's an online community too
Warhammer 40k 1rst edition: The Rogue Trader is my all time favorite. The combustibility is insane! You could play a fantasy game using that book if you wanted to. Also, I LOVE Runewars from FFG...
"I have enough miniatures, I dont need anymore" - Scott the miniature maniac 2020
Something tells me that's not going to age well lol.
@@x31omega ha, yeah
Now I’m not saying Scott’s lying...but I’m not ,not saying it either 🤣🤣
@@jackgaylord6159 it's a lie i think we've all told ourselves 😆
The fact you mentioned Marco FrisconiNJM made me so happy! Such an underrated channel. Love you guys even more now and I loved you both a lot before!
Need to put Gaslands on the list!
What I found interesting about Malifaux's resolution system is that it isn't just "another kind of random". By doing it with a standar playing card deck (or a proprietary one that's the same just with other symbols) you have an additional layer of control over the checks, since you have a hand from which you can decide to exchange the card in any flip to have better chances to succeed. And the suits add a second layer to the checks, since those can be used to activate special abilities.
I find the overall system to be more interesting than just plain rolling dice, since each check is more involved than just comparing what you rolled against a target number. The game as a whole may not be the best there is, but that resolution system is definitely the best I know on these kind of games.
It is a game where the best player wins 99% of the time, because you can have cards in your hands to replace the bad flips.
@@juanmanuelalvarez9668 The game is no way near that kind of balance.
The crew is kind of important and so are the match up.
The hand of cards also allows you to bluff and essentially card count. When there's a finite number of times you can see any number it adds a really interesting angle and really ramps up the tension
Of course we love what we love, but I totally recommend you give a shot to Malifaux.
All the things you mentioned you liked in other games, you can find in this one (in my opinion).
Great models, great lore, feels like chess, alternating activations + much less dependent on luck because of the card mechanic (and how you have cards in your hand as a resource to replace bad flips).
Jon is officially NOT ALLOWED to complain about GW prices after spending so much money on Kingdom Death. $350 for 26 minis, rules, cards and tokens is WAAAAYYY worse than GW pricing.
I think some GW stuff is really well priced, such as the 2017 Necromunda box set at about $100 for 20 minis and (almost) the entire wargame! And the game, lore, and models are really good. Also, Blood Bowl 2016 is about $100 for the same kind of thing, and you can get lots of those new $150 40k and Sigmar boxsets or whatever and they give you more than 26 minis; in fact, the cheaper 40k models are $3 each if you get the right kits, so that's 100 models for $300, roughly speaking.
@@TheClassicWorld ...... 350$ got me half an army from gw ...what lol and thats only 7 models
@@TheClassicWorld some of the models in the KD box is quite large and detailed. 1 model isnt necessarily the equal of another. The dark uprising necromunda box for 290 comes close to the KD box and that one has 30 models terrain and allows 2 players to duke it out whereas KD is a 4 player coop. We are comparing 2 different products here.
well the phoenix is about the size of a greater demon that goes for 140 dollars if i set GW store to USA and the watcher is demon prince sized so that is another 40 dollars. and then you need a rulebook and a codex and the 2 models for 180 dollars isnt a playable army etc etc. but lets instead compare it to necromunda dark uprising that is on sale for 290 on GWs homepage with all you need to play a game for 2 players. KD is a 4 player coop so 60 dollars more for 2 additional players isnt horrendus.
KD is the best of my kickstarter games and we have had a lot of fun with it. I have gotten my moneys worth out of it. Pricing is comparable.
@@dmeep Necromunda I think is GWs most expensive boxed game. Warcry, Kill Team, Blackstone Fortress and Underworlds are all boxed games that are half the price of Necromunda. Obviously value based on "how fun is it" is subjective and I'm glad you got your moneys worth from Kingdon Death. Based on "what you get in the box" Blackstone Fortress is probably the closest comparison made by GW and it's half the price of KD. In my opinion KD is way overpriced for what you get in the box.
"Heey yea I'll listen to this while eating dinner."
Preamble ramble is about pooping. Great.
Yeah sitting here with my KFC and have to listen to poop stories
@@dlightful4922 Damn near lost me. The childishness in each episode is getting worse. If it keeps going, I'm definitely dropping the sub. :(
@@Vanye111 you realize it's almost 2021 and technology exists that let's you fast-forward, right?
@@adfdasdfadfadsfareae Really? Do tell. I hadn't noticed. Thank you for educating me on aspects of technology I've not been using for 30 years.
Snark aside, I find the childish glee that a 43ish year old man takes in discussing his bowel movements on a hobby podcast disturbing. Don't get me wrong - I like Jon's solo videos, and I like Scott's solo videos. However, when the two of them are together, their collective behavior drops too often into the range of 8 year old for my tastes.
@@Vanye111 I'm 38.
Dude, I haven't even listen to this, but it's 2 hours 16 minutes. I'm so freaking ready!!!!
Warcry is pretty great! The ruleset is clean and fast, but the activation system and the ability system gives it just enough depth for me. There is a lot of innovation in what they do beyond the basics - there's a strong sense of narrative and there are tons of cool ways to play it, different scenarios, game modes. Give it a try, Scott!
Oh man! Awesome to hear love for the Middle Earth SBG! The only game that ever held my attention long term, would love to see some lord of the rings content!
Totally agree. And the current edition has to be the best so far.
I have always told people that SBG is the best game system that Games Workshop offers. Too bad watching it played is like watching paint dry... lol
So glad to see Jazza promoting miniature painting. He's the reason I went looking for you guys many moons ago. Looked like something I could share with my grandson. Been enjoying the many sculpts and paint tips since.
Good episode! However, a small correction, Warmachine and Hordes aren't dead games, obviously, they aren't as big as they were before, but both are still going, PP still releases models, and rule-wise the games are better than ever.
The game really dependent on where you are. Here in the UK its really really struggling and the community has more or less boiled away all the casual players to leave a "competition only" crowed. Plus supply, quality issues and the shear number of models is just hurting everything. The game IS great. Its an amazing game actually. But its hurt by its own company and community.
@@Faceonthewall Sadly, community issues are mostly true for every wargame but GW games. These issues don't affect me that much because I've always played with same small clique of players. Anyway, I have the feeling that the more games there are and the easier it is to learn and buy new games, the less variety people play to. GW is reaching monopoly levels :(
Warmachine/Hordes definitely not dead.
You guys should try Aristeia, quite nice, fast and balanced. The metal minis are quite good, the plastic ones lack some detail
Scot's list:
A - Wood Elves and Vampires
C - What is Batman?
F - Die robot, die!
Don’t get stuck playing games with subpar rules just because you like the models! As a follow up discussion, you guys should consider trying out some miniature agnostic games that already fit with your collections. Frostgrave was one you mentioned, and coming out very soon next year with a sci-fi theme is Stargrave. There is a fun ruleset, which works with most AoS armies, called Warlords of Erehwon. And for infinity and necrommunda models, there’s a cyberpunk ruleset called Reality’s edge which I own but haven’t been able to play before covid hit, but it looks really cool.
The 'big boys' make the best minis, but the underdogs make the best rulesets :)
Agreed. Generally speaking, for companies that make miniatures, the game rules are not their main product, and are really only there to sell more minis. It’s also why you end up with things like codex creep. Companies that just focus on rules will almost always be better because they’re just focused on making a fun game.
Please can I have some more ? Your podcast only last an average of two evenings of hobbying 😁 Can't wait to listen to this one!
As a huge fan of BattleTech myself, I can honestly say the new plastic models from the Clan Invasion Kickstarter looks beautiful and worth collecting, though I always do have a soft spot for the Metal BattleTech minis from Ral Partha/Iron Wind Metals, its just takes awhile to let the designs grow on you, even their Combat Vehicles and the Aerospace fighters, has that real world military look to them.
My favorite thing about Frostgrave is that the rules say specifically to use any models you want. It really brings a lot of joy knowing you really like every model in your crew.
Also, you guys should stream or make a joint video on playing the game. You could pick it up quick. Hell, BMC plays if you want to do a meet-up with him.
Homework assignment for the next month should be to play as many updated/best versions of the N/A list so you can rehash your tier list.
Great idea. I used to play a ton of warmachine and hordes, and it was kinda sad to hear its not been touched. I quite like the game mechanics
Seeing John explain Scotts miniature and the premise of the video just by using the cool glasses! That is a professional artist explaining at work there! Respect for John just skyrocketed! Also kudos to Scott on the amazing miniature painting!
Miniac, Dude, you need to get into 9th age fantasy Battles with your wood elves army as is.
Today was a good news, bad news situation for me.
Bad news: it's Monday and I have to work and start a new week.
Good news: a new episode of Scott & Jon talking about food and minis!
Mixed news: poop
Happy Heretic what are YOU doing here! Are you cheating on EonsOfBattle?
@@minigamerjeonsofbattle9376 nah, baby, they meant nothing to me, I swear! XD
Love to hear from you guys after playing Frostgrave.
In Middle Earth SBG there are different phases and both sides complete each phase before the next phase begins. the player with priority (initiative) goes first in the move phase, the the other player, then the player wit priority shoots, then the other player and then there's the fight phase were the player with priority chooses the combats (this can be important as surrounded models are easier to woun). But there are also heroic actions where heroes can expend "might points" to change the course of, for example, to movement phase to get an advantage (like stopping cavalry charges). There have been a few changes over the years. you now have to deploy in warbands in the beginning and depending on the theme of your army there are army bonuses. There are also new heroic actions that make the game more interesting. Just start the game guys, it's really nice.
Based on what I heard yall talking about I think yall Might enjoy Kings of War alot
Also something that came out this year that needs some love because the models are dope Af and im hype for it * just ordered the starter set is Conquest the last argument of Kings by Para bellum
Frostgrave is so awesome.
The redcap has inspired me to run a scenario in D&D where they encounter a black and white redcap in the shadowfell. Such a sweet mini.
The new edition of Infinity makes it easier to get into it. Tight but cleaned up.
I still can't enjoy metal minis. But I may give it a try now that I can 3d print
Yeah, you guys definitely need to check out Frostgrave! You can even divest it from the frozen city environment and just run it wherever else you think is aesthetically pleasing too (dark forest, sandy tombs, quarantined magical city, or tropical islands). The objective-based nature of the game is what makes it so good, along with the very simple monster AI.
Listening to Scott and Jon talking about Mordheim being a dead "cultic like" game while they also obsess over Guildball :)
Bolt Action?
I need to go through and listen still. But curious to hear how Malifaux only got C tier. Have you guys played M3e yet? Its every bit as streamlined as Guild Ball was. The game is also still super alive with an entire new faction dropping. The new streamlined ruleset is right up there with guild ball as my favorite miniatures ruleset. They also nerfed the jokers a bit to make it a little less swingy.
It's dead in my area. The mishandled year long beta leak, and the Dead Man's Hand move to kill half the Masters my friend and I had ruined it. The two stores that had organized play don't anymore, both Henchman in the area quit playing as well.
37:45 this is why I have three blood bowl teams and have never played a game.
Please do come to Texas that would be amazing! I live about an hour away from that store and would definitely attend an event from you guys!
Sounds like you should film a battle report of your first game of 9th Age! I would love to hear John complain for 5-12 hours 🤣
Good stuff
Guild Ball borrows a good amount fom Warmachine and Hordes. If you love Guild Ball you may really enjoy WM/H. It is like MTG and chess thrown into a mini wargame.
Thats so awsome that today is a monday after a monday with out trapped up plastic love the show
I have minis to paint, but I can't prime them with my rattlecan because it hasn't stopped raining for a few weeks now, and it won't stop until it starts snowing.
What's your advice on how I should go about prepping my models for painting?
More info: I'm using clear plastic bases, and the plastics are multicoloured, some are dark green, others are dark blue, and some are off-white, and some are pewter, thus the need to prime them all the same grey so that I can paint them to fit into my army.
Hordes/Warmacine they did dice right.
Probably my most enjoyable episode yet.
Speaking of GW games I feel like they largely succeed on the strength of their setting which may be why they remain popular even when the rules aren't so great.
I just got onto eBay, with the intention of selling minis....I have since bought two Betrayal at Calth sets, a Warhammer 5th Edition starter set, Bretonnian Knights, Empire Knights, Empire Battalion.....and I have only listed a few items.
Great episode for sure. What i will say, for some of aspects of AoS that Scott isn't a huge fan of, I enjoy. Also, im curious.. did the Khorne player not explain the blood tithe points before the game? 🤔 In all of the games I've played (about 10) we've always gone over what our lists do, so there isn't those gotcha moments (or they are less) but regardless, I can see how that would be a feel bad. 🤔
But again, I totally get the criticisms of the game, just curious. 🙂 Keep up the awesome content to make every other Monday more bearable 🙂
Yeah, I don't think we went over either of our lists, but what you mention is a great idea!
@@Miniac Here's to hopefully more fun games of AoS for you!
In a previous episode you talked about getting adepticon tattoos. I'm a professional tattooer in west bend wisconsin, which is definitely on the way from sam's house to vince's. It'll slow down that 10 hour drive, but it's a good idea to get a vince tat on your way to his house.
This is a dangerous idea
If you go to Warhammer world please do a meet-up! It would be epic to see you both!
My list:
1. A song of ice and fire the miniatures game
2.Saga
3.The Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game
4.Warhammer fantasy
5.x-wing
6.40k
Also the newest wave of releases for song are beautiful the rose knights and dragons look great, also the middle Earth battle game is just like a 5th edition or something
Great breakdown on OSL! Will be using a similar method on future models.
Have yall painted any Conquest Last Argument of Kings minis?
Does anybody know what magnifying head gear Jon is wearing during the Pre-Amble Ramble?
This was great, I literally posted a question in the FB group about alternative games companies! Love the look of arena rex! Cheers guys.
I made it a minute and a half in before the real question was asked. "Do you not like breakfast food?" Relieved to hear breakfast is back on the menu!
Did you say "Castlevania was a starting point [for all things vampires] when I was a young Vlad"?? Eh, even if you didn't, that's my head canon now!
Middle Earth SBG is definitely A tier for me. The game mechanism itself is so engaging and its rules match the lore so fittingly. I mostly love the older metal miniatures, so I mostly skip the plastic new ones. Most importantly the game is alive and growing atm. You guys should give it a try and look at the legendary legions and/or battle companies. I agree with your take on Underworlds, I was introduced to miniatures because of said game but eventually got bored and the moment I saw Middle Earth Sbg I gave it up. If not for MESBG I would have looked for AoS but the rules are so much more fun comparatively imo and the lore for me is so much better perhaps for nostalgic reasons but also it’s a more medieval fantasy setting, which I prefer. Definitely recommend it, lots of fun!
Next to D&D Mordheim is my favorite game. It is great. You should definitely try it out guys!
Oooh, I've seen that precious diorama when I was in Dresden! No picture can really do it justice. If you ever get a chance to go there - please do!
i LOVE 1,2,3 Star Wars honestly just my childhood right there, such hot garbo that I love XD
Talking about the list-building and MOBA drafting comparison, Kill Team has that turned to 11, but most people don't pay attention to it. It's the one GW game where list tailoring is encouraged. You have 20 models on your roster, then when you find out your opponent's faction and roster, and it's THEN that you build your 100 or 125 point list.
Little late to the video. I love what you guys do. Good on you Jon for picking Infinity and in a high tier too. The 4th edition is really streamlined and, as you said, is really fun and dynamic. Scott, maybe give it another chance, the models are awesome. I would jump over the moon if you guys had more Infinity on your channels. Pozdrawiam!
You guys should give Battletech a shot! Specifically Alpha Strike, it is a fast playing medium army size game using big stompy tanks piloted by a futuristic version of noble knights, crusading for their lord's glory. The game is set starting in the year 3025 and has expansions for both pre and post 3025 eras with different technology, characters, and deep lore available. The game was created in 1984 and is now in a major overhaul and renaissance with new writers, artwork, and rules. I've been playing since 1993 and I LOVE painting and assembling the minis and playing the game with friends! I even got my wife into it and she loves it!
Tuning in for mini game talk and dropping right into a discussion about poop. Yep I'm at the right place.
Black and white underpainting is grisaille method. Also called a dead layer. Now use thin color glazes over it.
3 min. In and rolling on the floor 😂😂
If Kimera colors restock, Marco Frisoni of NJM buys like 5 sets to stock up, so 500 sets ain't so much! :D
Bloodtithe points are accumulated by units dying? How did he have enough turn 1?
I LOVE that because I grew up in Kenosha I have very similar memories. Gurnee Mills was the junk! I keep wondering if we would been in there at the same time. I'm 30 so it's possible! Also WHFB will always be my #1. BUT I did love 40k 3rd edition.
There's a very good chance we were in the same area at least! I was there for the years up until they didn't renew their lease in the mall.
@@Miniac Yea, it was very sad for the 3 years or whatever where we had to go all the way to like Palatine or wherever it was in Northern Chicago. But I have great memories of playing at the store in Pleasant prairie.
I think you all would really enjoy the community of kings of war because of how much the painting aspect and diorama aspect of the game is encouraged. That and just the fact it is an easy and tight rule system to learn.
Looking at the osl on the kd minis. Could you invert the colours with an ether flame sort of vibe? Warm blue source with a reddy purple back light?
I love Battletech but the old models are absolutely foul you are correct, the new ones are really nice though.
The “cool mini” thing excludes a bunch of cool mini agnostic games. That might be a whole category by itself though.
Zone alpha and reality's edge look awesome
**watches every episode at least 4 times** Am I doing it right?
This was fun to listen to! Personaly I really like warcry due to it's replayability. We've been playing with the campagin encounter options and even though we know our factions through and through how they work you still cant judge who'll win the encounter. Contrast this this with 40k, which I really like, turn one you usually know who's going to win and aside from like crusade there is not much you can do to change it.
what are the edge cases that turned you off of kill team?
This one surprised me. If it's D-tier, why did he convince his friends to all get into it and help them with their lists? It also has all the factions rules together, which helps with that gotcha from a book you don't own.
1:09:00 - When you guys mentioned Blood Bowl and how there weren't certain teams, don't forget to expand your horizon past just what GW offers and look at the 3rd party teams. There are some 3rd party teams that make the GW stuff look mediocre, can come in cheaper for a full roster than the GW stuff, and have unique sculpts for every player (unlike GW who duplicates a lot of the players). For instance, a relatively recent Kickstarter from Fellowship Games that had Khemri, Vampire and Necromantic teams available, which extra options allowing you to convert at least the Necromantic team into an Undead team: www.kickstarter.com/projects/fellowshipgames/vampires-egyptians-and-necromancers-for-fantasy-football/description or the stuff from Greebo, which while is a bit more expensive, has some amazing looking fully customizable teams or individual players (if you want to build a team with specific models): www.greebo-games.com/31-fantasy-football
A lot of 3rd party companies have gotten better at making miniatures for Blood Bowl over the time when GW had abandoned Blood Bowl (before they came back to it).
Damn, when Scott said Gurnee mills it took me back when I lived not far from Gurnee. When I was a lot younger Gurnee used to be the best but not so much last time I visited my hometown.
Mordheim is my favorite tabletop wargame, as it is a mixture of miniature tabletop gaming and a tabletop RPG. It's great to tell awesome stories in epic campaigns, where you see your heroes/units grow and cripple at the same time. It's amazing. And there's still an amazing community out there, with tons of scenarios. And it's so easy to build a warband and so fun to customize them.
And Infinity is a great game. It's super technical and has a high skill ceiling. It's not casual enough for me, but I recognize it's superiority.
Have either of you played Starbreach?
A- Marvel Crisis Protocol - such a fun game with alt activation and near endless team comps built from the Marvel Comics roster
B- Frost Grave - just fun
C- X Wing - not perfect but very fun and get to use space combat
D- Legion - Obi Wan nuff said
By "Space combat" you mean a 2D version of aircraft combat then you're closer to being correct.
If you want to see examples of what space combat would most likely look like watch the ship to ship combat of "Babylon 5" or "The Expanse".
@@Winterydee The issue with adding a 3rd Dimension to "airplane" games is that it adds a level of complexity that may scare a lot of people if your goal is to make a mass market game. Check your Six and Flight Leader are 3D plane fighting game but they are not for the casual gamer. Not saying that it would not be possible but it adds an whole new level of complexity and mental brain drain, thinking in 3D is exausting as hell when plannign your moves!
@@cyagen9782 - I posted that late last night and I think ce off a little saltier than it should be. I think most of that salt is due to my own issues with Star Wars.
I love the original trilogy... an the dogfighting of fighters is very cinematic but is based off of aerial warfare not how space warfare would work. Capital ship warfare in the movies tends to mimic naval ocean warfare instead of space warfare again.
So my issue is not with the game, that it just trying to recreate the imagery of the dogfighting from the movies. My issue is with the source material and the poor depiction of space movement and warfare.
But in the end I must remember that Star Wars is more of a Space Fantasy than it is a Science Fiction based franchise.
Again sorry for any saltiness.
@@Winterydee no need to apologises, you were making valid points as my only way to answer them was from a game design perspective. As for the space combats in SW, Lucas opening said that they were inspired by the WW2 action movies like the old batltle of midway movie...and yes B5 is superior to every other sci-fi outthere and influenced the way TV series are written, with deep long arcs, hell it is one of the main influence on the MCU 10 years story arc! JMS iS GOD (and wrote the first Thor)!!! ;)
@Jon, did you play Underworlds in season 1? I feel like by mid season 2, there were enough cards and strategies around to make the deckbuilding customization a lot more intricate than it sounds like you experienced. I've also seen both complete wargame novices and veterans pick up and enjoy Underworlds, so its been a big hit with my gaming circle.
The hate for underworlds wounds me.
Same. Underworlds feels like masterful game design to me.
Warmahordes had so many chocha moments, I tried to get into it at 4 different stores across two different states, never had a good time.
The middle earth strategy battle game is awesome to run scenarios to recreate scenes from the movies and books, the 1v1 army mode is much less interesting.
There's a lot of A tier games missing from that list! Like Relicblade!
you mentioned Miniature market , took a gander and disappointed they don't ship to Canada on the products I looked for.
Good episode again! Don't sell blood bowl short (it has Wood Elves and Vampires). Started it this year and it's likely the best game GW ever made (in my and quite a few other people's opinion ;) The rules are tight, there IS a lot of tactics involved and the team development really is the cherry on top of the cake. Also, 2-3h games that can be played in a bar while having a pint or two is nice.
My God how can you have a miniature war game tier list when you haven’t played any!
Good morning from Penn & West Broadway!!!😃😀
I am shocked with how not-triggered i am with this list. With one exception. I want to make the case for malifaux being at least b tier. The date deck mechanic is exceptional. It is not the same at all as having a 54 sided die. As you use cards they cannot come up again until the deck is shuffled so the chance you can achieve what you want changes all the time and if you're galaxy brained you can track both your and your opponents cards. Having a hand of cards allows you to sometimes know for sure you can pull off some incredible plays. You can make hail mary shots that are really cool and cinematic and actually have a chance of doing it. To use a 40k analogy, we've all had a time when the storm bolter on the rhino is your last chance to kill the daemon Prince etc. In malifaux you have so much more influence over plays like this. The alternating turn sequence inherently adds some balance and you can react to your opponent without just getting steamrolled in 1 turn. It was one of the first to do secret objectives which allows you to bluff and adds so much tension. I've never been more on edge than the closing turns of a malifaux game. Also your crew can get wiped out and you can still win if you achieved your objectives. The main con with it is that each model has a lot of specific rules and synergies so you really need to know your opponent's crew. It's an amazing game with very little investment required and everyone should try it
Warmachine/Hordes are the same game and are kinda dead kinda not. They are still getting new models and rules updates but PP has lost the support of FLGs the world over so it's hard to find groups for it. Still a fun game to play. It's most alive version is a community driven smaller army rule-set called "Brawlmachine."
Their new game Warcaster: Neo-mechanika is even better imo. It plays like an RTS with each player spawning in units from their list every turn. It's very compelling IMO.
You guys also might like the models for Riot Quest (a casual appealing miniatures board game) and Monsterpocalypse (kaiju smashing up a city game).
53:58 I would've said that it's C tier cause every goddamn model is metal and pinning them is annoying. Also, bent gunbarrels.
Damn, Scott, my WHFB experience was THE EXACT same as yours. I was the highschool freshmen playing against the old guys, because all my friends had space marines and imperial guard and I thought it was boring. I gave my 40k friends shit that they were playing checkers and I was playing chess (whfb). I lost almost every game but I still to this day remember so many amazingly epic moments from those games. Muh nostalgia.
heck yes DUDE!
Just what I need as I paint
I WISH AoS had options for weapons. Most of the time now in AoS if your battle line has a difference in weapons, it's usually just the difference between rend 1 or 2 in reach.
S tier reserved for Marvel Crisis Protocol. Great mini's, all the lore, Ability to make any team you want, clean and simple rules but with mariana trench levels of depth and finally the best list building format. Seriously its so simple (no points just select the cards) and for new people easy to pick just the ones for your affiliation (avengers etc) but when you start to think about how it works in the game it gives you the most in depth thought process of how it can play out due to all the possible options.
aren't Beastgrave, Frostgrave and Shadespire are also skirmish games ? (just to add to tthe list)
Shadespire, Nightvault, Beastgrave and the new Direchasm, are all just seasons of Warhammer Underworlds. I did miss Frostgrave and have added it.
YEEEEEAH whoooop whooooop TrappedUnderPlastic is in da house
Yes, Miniature Market is wonderful! I live about 20 minutes from there, and I can confirm that is very dangerous to the hobby budget 🤣
I'm 20 min away to, the garage sales are super dangerous
Scott, Ninjon, I am into Deadzone, wht do you think of it. Where would it be on your lists?
Whenever I play Age of Sigmar or 40k, every game I always zone out and it just feels I get close enough, pick the attack with the most dice, and just, I'm grinding down dice I'm rolling. Roll to hit, shrink the die pool, roll to wound, shrink the die pool. Then my opponent rolls armor save. I never feel anything else when I play. I'm in love with Song of Ice and Fire though. Very similar roll set to Age of Sigmar, but the fact that flanking, unit positioning is so important, and the alternating turns based on a unit by unit bases just makes the game so much more exciting for me.
You should give Kings of war a shot, I must admit to being a bit of a fanboy bannerwaver but there's a reason.
You can use whatever minis you have now, and it's all about tactical play. There is good balance, good movement systems, and great modelling opportunities through multibasing.
You can also download the base rules for free from Mantics website, it's a free product in their shop
@@saulsmith2939 I've been looking into the game, and I must say I'm intrigued. But sadly there are zero groups around me that play it. I'm already having a hard enough time getting people to play song of ice and fire haha. If you are not playing warhammer around here, you are not playing. But I might pick up two armies and force a couple people to play. Those abyssal dwarfs call to me.
@@BlackLegion1616 whereabouts are you? There's a group on FB called Kings of war fanatics and there's players all over the place. Also there's an online community too
@@saulsmith2939 im down in Southern Ohio. Lot a farmland, but I will check out the Facebook group
Warhammer 40k 1rst edition: The Rogue Trader is my all time favorite. The combustibility is insane! You could play a fantasy game using that book if you wanted to. Also, I LOVE Runewars from FFG...
If you like Guild Ball you should check out Marvel Crisis Protocol. Similar team building and very manueverable and fun playstyle.
*Sad face hearing your opinions as I sit here working on my Warmachine models....*
Same
tbh its a much better game than most of everything else on this list.
@@anab0lic agreed