Trouble Brewing - New App Available Now!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- The open beta of our official app is now available for subscription over at: / botconline
Storytellers for this game: Ben Burns
Trouble Brewing character sheet here: i.imgur.com/44...
Join us for the streams over at / thepandemoniuminstitute
Find out more at bloodonthecloc...
Intro visuals created by Jon from Luke & Dad Productions / @vfx_jon
Intro music - Private Reflection Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons...
Other music by Karl Casey @WhiteBatAudio
Nicky is adorable updating chat every time. What a dude.
I really appreciate that Nicky always gives a recap for chat. Not all heroes wear capes.
Looks great but £27.60 a month for me to host for my friends is a bit steep. Ill need to find better friends who would chip in but even then I think ill stick to the old one and discord.
This is pretty much where I land too. That second tier is what I'd aim for (and the app looks amazing), but honestly it'd need to be half that price for me to seriously consider it as I don't have a regular enough group to justify $30 USD each month. is there any chance that we could do a 1 time purchase if it doesn't come with server support (i.e. we'd have to setup and host our own server? I'd be totally down to do that, but subscribing to your server fees is a bit much for me)
The PPM is outragous and I would prefer an upfront cost.
That is £276 a year, plus the £125 for the physical game. That will create a barrier to entry and stop a lot of new players from joining.
I really think the pricing needs to be a single fee. If the app came as part of the game or for a one time cost of £60 it would be more palletable.
I get the app has running costs, but Star Citizen, a game renownd for being a huge development feat and pricey costs less for a subscription.
@@pocoyoda £331.20 a year, which in my circumstances Id pretty much have to swallow the costs of. As you say, just too high a barrier to allow this to break into the mainstream like it potentially could if it was priced more consumer friendly.
Easy €30
@@pocoyoda The idea of basing an online adaption of a boardgame you'd usually play with your friends around a single person admission fee is... well, certainly a decision.
The high barrier of entry for people who host their game means that TPI evaluated that BotC is very unlikely to break into mainstream. I'm sure TPI built different monetization models and came to the conclusion that it's more profitable to monetize its niche fanbase than run a more user friendly model to allow growing into the mainstream and/or at some point the mobile market. That's fine, nobody makes us use this app.
BoardGameArena has become this huge plattform with >8 million users that outgrew their capacity and got taken over by Asmodee - with the exact opposite approach: a user friendly model where one host can buy a reasonably priced subscription and invite their casual friends to play. Most cases of TPI's model have failed and vanished, but they seem to believe they can make it work. Maybe they will, time will tell. I hope it does take off, because the app looks like there has gone a lot of work into it and I wish Ben, Evin and Co the best of luck. At what's basically twelve times the price of BGA premium, I personally don't see the appeal and it looks like a stillbirth to me, but who am I?!
Neat, thanks for the showcase. Agree with other comments, the price is a bit too steep for now.
Do you have any plans to make a mobile app as well, not for playing per se, but more for set-up and the storyteller to use in-person if they don't have the game with them? Something similar to PocketGrim, but more useful / official?
The problem is that nobody could ever convince their whole group to get individual subscriptions, so the bulk deal is functionally the only one, and it's steep as heck :/ The current deal on Patreon of being able to spend $15 for your whole group actually seems reasonable, and it sucks that that's apparently a temporary discount.
this looks really cool but the price is a bit too steep as a monthly subscription cost, is there going to be an option to purchase this for a one time fee in the future?
No plans for one-time fee currently as there are upkeep costs involved.
@@icewatever ok. Thanks for the reply.
@@icewatever would there be a way to meet in the middle and do a one time purchase with the caveat that the purchaser gains only a closed source hosting package and has to run their own server? I know I'd happily spend a decent amount for that option, but feel that I also don't represent a large populace in that
@@Woogachaka42 Expecting a person to run their own server is pretty ridiculous and is completely user unfriendly.
@@mykeCA82 thats why it may be the only way to still hold to that argument. Either pay the support for the servers or run your own. Its not an option for your average user
It does look good, but ~30€/month for what can basically be done with discord on a lower quality is really steep.
I'm afraid I wouldn't subscribe to a AAA game of any of my favorite franchises for 30€/month, let alone a convenient fancy web app.
With this price tag on a subscription, the app competes against tough competition: Sky, DAZN or two streaming services. Guess I'll pass on this one.
Hey, thanks for the feedback. It's $5 USD/month for access to the app. There are more expensive group accounts, with the option for a big group to get together and cover it together if they're always playing it together, so it's offering a cost-per-player discount. We understand though if you still feel like not joining for any reason. :)
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower Hey Evin, thanks for adding to the discussion.
I think my main gripe is that with individual access being £4.80/Month, it takes only one player not being happy to pay this for the rest of a session to have to abandon using it, meaning everyone who has signed up is not able to use their subscription for that session.
Meanwhile the Minion tier giving a group access is expensive, and the ability to crowdfund in a group sounds nice, but the logistics of doing so only adds to the admin required in setting up and running a group. Just getting enough people together for a game is often a pain, trying to manage a pot of money that everyone contributes to, and issuing refunds if the minion tier pricing is not reached sounds like way too much work.
Overall I think the uptake on this may be fairly low. I think if this was priced at £10+VAT for the minion tier I'd be willing to shell out for it, but at 2.5x that price I'll stick with an alternative.
Wish the team the best of luck with this though, especially as no one is forced to use this app, so hopefully some deeper pockets can support this.
Hey thanks very much, we appreciate your kind words and the feedback nonetheless.
Just for some further context - We priced the $5/USD tier based on our Twitch channel, which has a decent subscription and which also costs $5/USD per month. If people are willing to pay that much per month to watch Clocktower, we figured that would be the floor of what they're willing to pay each month to play it. The group tier was then priced on giving a discount to groups, who typically will get together for games in the 8-12 player range. We know group payment dynamics can be fiddly, but there are plenty of digital tools these days to help people make shared payments smooth between groups, and if people are willing to employ these then the group discount is there for the taking.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower will there also be a possibility to buy the app once and have access to it forever for a higher price instead of once a month?
@@BloodontheClocktower I get that, but the $5/month package isn't that valuable, because I've been introducing my friends and lots of new players to this game and I can't really expect them all to pay a fiver to join a game they might not like and just want to test. So the usability for folks like me really only lies in the 30€/month deal.
So we'll stick to discord. Really cool app, though. Hope it takes off. Good luck.
I'd say that it was a weird choice to shunt your players by locking a super useful tool behind a *subscription* service, but we have a free alternative and this is for your open beta - which may imply that the full release won't be tied to Patreon (fingers crossed).
Worth noting - I wouldn't mind a subscription fee if there was a notable benefit beyond just access to the tool. Like new roles each month, new play sets, new mechanics or features - etc. A subscription just to pay server costs is uh... questionable.
Continued development isn't enough of a reason to support a game that you enjoy?
@@mykeCA82 What development? $30/month for a tool that can't really change or improve much beyond what it is versus getting two other subscription services like Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, MMORPGs, etc. The value just isn't there. $30/month can get you an absurd amount of value and newly created entertainment in a variety of ways. I could get 100+ high quality fantasy STL files every month for $30.
My play group talked it out and almost immediately laughed at the prospect. We said even if we played once a week, it would never be worth it. We'd rather just use discord (which is a sentiment 90% of player seem to share).
@@CriticalComplainer and price has been reduced, app will continue to be developed for months.
@@mykeCA82 Great, $15 is much better. But that still doesn't make a subscription model the right fit for this tool. Being "developed" for months means effectively nothing in this context.
@@CriticalComplainer It does but if you don't get it then :shrug;
Not finished the video, but is there a confirmation for 'Reveal Grimoire'? If not, I can foresee some issues with it being placed next to 'Recall to Town Square'. "Oops, sorry guys my hand slipped. Time for a re-rack." Edit: Finished the video. There is a confirmation. Good design decision there.
Yes. In fact, there are two!
Could there be an option for ppl who already own the game to pay a reduced fee. Maybe through the account on which they ordered the game or proof purchase of some sort?
I could see myself paying the group rate if I was streaming Clocktower myself, it’s slick as hell, but I just dont need it to play as I do now.
Do players also need a subscription in order to join games, or is it only the host/storyteller that needs a subscription (similar to one person buying the physical game and inviting anyone to play)?
Depends on the subscription level. I believe either every player needs the lower cost subscription, or one player needs the more expensive subscription.
You already killed it for me with the subscription part in the description. I already bought the game to play every once in a while and not regularly. It doesn't help that I religiously own all my games either. Hopefully the video can take back my attention.
If people are talking in the group during the night phase and you pull somebody for a private chat, would it not become possible apparent to the group that this player was very quiet for a few moments, and therefore probably wakes at night?
Not if you play it the way the game intends, where the storyteller gives players silent information.
Even with the talking option, players with night abilities would know not to be TOO chatty at night. Ben is a good storyteller and used both methods, effectively preventing any meta gaming for players that are “too loud” or “too silent” at night.
@@kylesmorgabord5592 ah yes of course I mean if you choose to use the private chat way of doing things. Ben runs it well, but I could see it causing issues potentially
Ben shows of and talks about that, when "pulling someone in" it's an invitation so the person can wait for a natural break to disappear from the communal talking.
Of course, a clever player could pattern their silence in town square after what they are bluffing as well...
@@theHalken there's a moment in the next game they do when people agree directly asking other people questions during the night. If they are silent, you couldn't probably presume they are in a private chat with storyteller and therefore wake at night
Even with silent info, "zoning out" during a part of the night where you would have gotten a message to pretend to be distracted could sell a story. Otoh, if people do that then why try to use it for info... Second guessing to next level
Is the original app going to be shut down or anything or going to remain free? I think atm doing 1 game a week, it's a bit too steep to pay for now but i totally get the price tag. As many have mentioned, grouping funds together etc is more complicated on top of just getting people to come and play games in general. Still, amazing work on the tool and it'll defo make TPI streams more engaging! :P
You're all good, there are no plans to shut down the Bra1n Tool for the time being. Maybe in the very long term, but it's not disappearing any time soon.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower Thanks for letting me know. I was super tempted to go minion tier at £24 but then VAT pushes it up. I think sales would fly if it was £20 a month VAT inclusive I'll be honest. Especially given our current energy crisis climate we're living in! :p
Having not seen these people before, it was just a tiny bit hard to tell who was talking - it might help to make the visual effect that shows when they talk a little more noticeable. It's all very cool though
On the sides of the circles, you'll notice moving bars. This indicates whose talking.
@@mykeCA82 that's what I mean, they're not very noticeable if you don't already know the voice of the person talking
@@ManusNoble1988 It's very noticeable for me. No different than looking at the Discord VC and seeing who lights up.
@@mykeCA82 interesting, much less noticeable to me (on a phone that is)
I was having the same issues with seeing who was talking. It may be that light bar was mixing in with some of the backgrounds to peoples videos. Never had a problem with the other one they had used.
Does the app run exclusively through a web browser or does it have to be installed on a PC?
Cool app. So you don't have to get into discord anymore
Yep, the whole game takes place entirely within the app, no need for Discord.
Ekan’s tactic of nominating on dead good player’s behalfs was very clever.
So, this is a web app? Not for phones/tablets? Have to use a browser to use it, no matter the method of playing?
The old tools are just as good and the price tag is better. If it’s not broken then don’t fix it
Hey Brandon, that's a fair critique. I disagree that the old tool is just as good - this new one has plenty of great features and there are more to come. The price tag on the old one is better though, true, and we plan on leaving it up for quite a while yet so you're good to use it still if you prefer it.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower Maybe it's that I don't care that much about the webcams. What do you think the new tools do that the old ones don't that really improve the experience? Players can talk at night is an improvement until someone gets pulled into a private chat mid sentence and then the town knows something is up with them. I didn't really see a lot else different. Granted I kept falling asleep watching the video and I found out later it was because of the Mayor win... my mind was trying to protect me.
Is there any final price estimation? I would buy the product but it will really depend on how steep is the entry point..
Considering as well i might be able to play only once a month... I have not too many friends up to the challenge
It's 5USD per player or 30USD to host a whole group. But it's subscription based on a monthly payment, which targets only a very tiny niche of their audience.
If you play only once or twice a month, it's likely not priced for you.
@@bufftucker Thanks for the insight. It is an incredibly steep price for a fun play from time to time.
In 4 plays you match the actual product. It exceeds any expectation i had. I hope that's for Patreon pre-launch support.
Pity, i really hope they will reconsider group price...even less specific subscriptions (but wider play range) as Tabletopia, or BGA are well priced and with the one paying acting as Host, anyone can join in.
@@djna8352 I agree. For hosting this game a few times, it's too expensive as a subscription. A one time deal (like you'd buy most games) would be much better for folks like us, but I can ofc see why TPI wouldn't want to offer that.
Good thing the free version is still up to keep this game running for casuals. Playing on discord, as we have all done for months now, is perfectly fine.
They play so much more chaotic than the No Rolls Barred guys
One of the turnoffs I've heard from people is how chaotic the people really in the game are. There are some players who will by default lie during the first conversation, no matter what. My favorite games have been with people who were all learning the rules as they go.
@@lucduchien As a chaotic player myself, there are reasons to lie about your role day 1. There's also a level of restraint when it comes to playing chaotically. Some of my favourite games have been chaotic ones. Now if someone is being so chaotic to the point of it being a detriment, then yes, that is an issue, but in most of the games I've played in, this usually isn't the case.
@@mykeCA82 Sure. But to people trying to get into the game and they run into this meta of metas where you lie in your first convo no matter what, they are turned off. It is impossible to follow for the average person, and for someone not initiated into the deep meta, there seems to be no reason to talk to someone day one when you know that whatever comes out of their mouth is certainly a deception.
@@lucduchien I have literally never ran into someone that has been turned off by people lying in a social deduction game. There are a lot of times that I've lied day one and a lot of times where I don't. If a person is a role that doesn't want to out what they are, then they will lie. If a person is turned off from the lying aspect of a social deduction game shouldn't be playing them in the first place.
@@mykeCA82 like you, I have also never ran i to someone who was upset with someone lying in a social deduction game. The exampes you gave were all reasons for lying.
In games I've been able to gather, the absolute best ones, by far the most fun, have been with groups where most people had never even played werewolf before. Over time, reasons for lying always come up. That is a normal thing.
I've gotten about 9 different groups together since getting the kickstarter in. I have one coming getting together on Monday.
In one game, we had a mixed group of experienced players and some newbies. There were a couple of those experienced players that went around sowing chaos and lying the entire night, no matter what team they were on. That was the most deflated group by the end of the night.
At some point, you are no longer playing for good when none of your information can be trusted. We had one person swear up and down they had another person in an evil ping and convince the group to execute them. They were supposed to be good. That did nothing for the good team but make people frustrated.
I’d pay but I can’t get enough people together to play it, in person or online…and I run the Portland OR Meetup :(
Are you also a part of the Portland BotC Discord? There’s a growing community over there for in-person and online. Would be happy to throw you an invite!
10 times better thank what i expected. bravo!
Photoshop is 20 dollars a month. Just to throw in a comparison
From the players side, can they se everyone's facial reactions, even if they're in a different 'room'? Just muted?
Wow it truly does look amazing!
Why does the spy art look like a fish?
The spy artwork is actually a mask, but it takes a bit to recognize it as such.
Can we get a vid from the point of view of players, to see how the app works from their perspective?
Wow this looks fantastic
Exciting!
Wow, Edd has normal hair.
Ekin does NOT look like Ekin!
that great ！！！太棒了
The app is looking good. I likely won't be playing this game so I don't really care about the price, but I have some general feature suggestions:
Add a few more features that support the ST.
Maybe a sort of checklist for the current phase, with actions taken and todos.
It seems like story telling takes a lot of mental capacity and since the app has access to a lot of information (this works better with communication through the app than voice, but it could still do reminders like "you haven't talked to the demon yet this night") I feel like it could help a lot with keeping on top of the game.
What could also be useful is some transcribing feature that allows the ST to keep track of all conversations even if they weren't able to join all of them.
Another idea would be a list of possible win conditions for each role given the script and the current state of the game (public knowledge only) available to all players.
Maybe the possibility of defining and making available to all players the rules for certain edge cases and interactions.
A history of all actions for the ST, respectively of their own for the players.
And maybe grey out actions that aren't applicable, so it's harder to accidentally tell the empath "yes" instead of "1".
I know Ben said you want to keep the experience as close to irl as possible but I think you have the potential to greatly improve the game from that baseline with the app.
Actually, I do have one suggestion about the pricing: what seems to be a common issue is that people don't expect to be able to play very often, which makes the monthly fee seem expensive.
Maybe you can offer a kind of "pay for what you use" plan where you pay per game instead of per month.
If your maintenance costs are that high you could additionally charge for feature updates.
As I said, doesn't affect me, just an idea.
@@silberwolfSR71 I don't see how a "pay per game" method would be useful at all. At that point, you may as well just use the current grim tool.
@@mykeCA82 I may be missing something here but my understanding was that the app is supposed to offer more and better features than the old tool.
Obviously there is a good case for using the tool for those who find the new app too expensive regardless of the pricing model they settle on, and it's really cool that they're keeping it available.
I was just suggesting an option that could make the price reasonable to more players.
Just an example to illustrate my point:
Say you have a group that only manages to get together for a game once or twice a month. They've tried the app and like it a lot and wouldn't mind supporting its continued development.
But 5€ is a bit pricey to them for just one game. If they were able to play 4-6 times for that price it might be worth it.
So why not give them that option: offer a smaller (50c? 1€? no idea what people would be willing to pay) fee for one playthrough. Or create bundles of 5-10-20 games at a reasonable price.
Then there's no pressure on groups to squeeze in as many games as possible to justify the monthly fee.
Another point is that your group of players might not be very stable in the sense that some might be playing more often than others.
In that case you have 2 solutions with the current model: some players absorb the costs of some of the other players, or some players pay a higher per-game price. Both seem suboptimal to me.
I still think that paying per game makes more sense than per month, because the granularity here really is on the game level.
In other games with subscriptions, you can usually play for 5 or 10 minutes at a time, so it's easier to play more often and get your money's worth, and all your playtime is contributing to a bigger experience.
But with a board game the experience is mostly contained to one game.
@@silberwolfSR71 Price has been reduced. Also setting up a payment per game would mean payment methods beyond patreon which is not at all feasible right now. The TF role allows for many games to be played with others (there is a discord for the app to organize games). I dunno about you, but STing numerous games a month so others don't need to put down money for the 1st tier is well worth it imo.
@@mykeCA82 Oh that's cool. Of course reducing the monthly price is another option, and I'm sure players will like that.
Yeah to be fair I was working under an assumption of an eventual integrated payment system, which is of course a significant overhead and might not be worth implementing.
Paying for the higher tier to storytell many games per month could be worthwhile of course, but that is assuming you have a person who has the time and energy to do that. Not out of the question of course, but I feel like this would be less likely in a group of more casual players.
love the new look
Very surprised to hear that the web app is still in "Beta" and not in "Beeta."
Really? It's almost as if some people pronounce things differently, especially in the UK.
@@mykeCA82 It's wild!
So excited for this! Thanks, Daddy Ben and The Pandemonium team. Honestly, $40 AUD for everyone in the game is super reasonable - don’t understand the complaints. It’s like $3-$4 each a month.