Great explanation and tutorial on impressioning, it is definitely an art to get it right the first time, you are good at it. I seem to have a tough time, I end up using more blanks then I care to waste haha. I am a hobby lock picker and buy a lot of padlocks without keys and 90% of them can't be disassembled for decoding..so I started impressioning some of them and had some luck with a few but found it annoying with the ugly looking keys..so after some thought about an easier way it came to me....I think I may have made the worlds first pin profile copying jig. To make a really long story semi short..I pick the lock opened and jam a shim into the side of the tumbler to hold it unlocked, I turn the lock upside down so all the pins fall and rest at bitting profile against the cylinder. I clamp the lock into the jig and insert the pin reader, slide the stylus in the track and it transfers the exact pin profile to scale onto a piece of blue masking tape using more or less a seesaw type device that slides side to side with a hook pick (pin reader) on one end and a ultra fine 005 marker on the other...I then peel the tape off the jig and cut it out with scissors and stick it to the blank key and grind. Works 100% accurate every time. I will send you the link to check it out when I make a vid of it.
Except for the fact that you started off with the spacing already made by a key cutting machine, instead of showing how to do it manually (as expected by at least me), you made an excellent tutorial, thank you.
You can speed up the impressioning process by using a set of depth & spacer keys. Put Neolube on all keys and start the first cut in an area that doesn't show a mark. Then repeat the process until you get clear marks on each depth.
Like the way that you explain in detail. I have never done a key before but would like to try. The key I want to make is for a master trailer coupler lock 1970 ish. They take a standard master pad lock key, I know because I already own one and am thinking of buying another one with no key for 1/3 the price. That's if you can find them at all! I have two trailers and would like the same type lock for each. Ok back to my questions. Never done this before so this may be a silly question, can you use a marker (or erasable type) on the shiny brass to enhance the marks that you are looking for when they are leaving the marks? Also you mentioned getting the key stuck. So that because EVERY filed groove has to have a taper to the valley so what ever they catch on has a "slope upwards "for the key to ride up in removing it? And lastly looking at my other short Master keys they all seem to have a total of 4 valleys, so does that mean I am looking for 4 marks? Thanks in advance for your answers and the detailed video you took the time to make.
Thanks. Some pro tools really make a huge difference, some just make things a tiny bit easier (or last longer), but there are tons of 'pro' tools that are huge wastes of money (see SE Lock and Key's recent video on the HPC Pocker Decoder for one egregious example).
@@Nite0wl yes, true and true. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's any good. :/ I try and do research before I commit to an expensive purchase.
Yeah, I have been burned that way a few times. It is a rare thing that a tool will be completely useless (like my HPC pocket decoder) but I have plenty that mostly just take up space in drawers.
Good and detailed video. A little hard to see the difference between different marks (real marks, virtual marks, etc.) but you covered a lot of ground well. I'd suggest Oliver Diederichsen's book for people that would want to look at some nice and close images of impression marks.
Olivers book is good but the approach is far from optimal. Mostly as research continues and books are frozen snippets of past knowledge. The pictures are good.
I am always amazed by how quick people like Jos and the other serious competitors impression things in competitions. I am no where near their level and don't even consider myself worthy of entering competitions but thought I would share some basic tips to help people who are just starting out.
When I was in school I had this idea to help my impressioning. I wrote down the depth of cut for a lock like Schlage, for example. Then I start my impressioning and file where I saw the mark. After each filing, I would take my micrometers and measure how much was left on the key. For me, I would go down 1 depth for every three filings. But that depends on how fine your file is also. Just a little tip. I don't use key gauges from HPC that much, not accurate enough for me unless it's an original Schlage key gauge.
The Schlage OEM key gauge is actually made by LAB, as are Schlage's OEM pins and pin kits. The key gauge I used in this video is LAB's 2-in-1 Kwikset and Schlage gauge which was included with a LAB parts kit. For high precision measurements of keys I have a Foley-Belsaw key micrometer but for general impressioning with a known depth system the sheet metal gauges are good enough. If I need precision out to .0001" I would be decoding pins and cutting by code on my Blitz machine.
@@Nite0wl Interesting. I hardly find myself using decoders anymore. As of now, I'm trying to figure how to sight read the Medeco Biaxial pins. I have it on some notes written down somewhere. I'm trying to determine the pin angle by looking at the pin.
@@ken_9359 Reading the angles is the easy part, there are only 3 possible angles: Perpendicular, and 20° left or right (read with the bow on your left). By default Biaxial only uses 6 depths in .025" increments (there is a rare 'half-step' depth system used for very large master key systems similar to the one used for the Omega variant of Medeco Original). The hardest part of sight reading Biaxial and M3 is reliably determining the fore and aft displacement of the cuts which are +/-.031" off the nominal center of each chamber.
@@Nite0wl Yeah, the key is no problem reading. My method is to have the tip of the key facing away from me and look at the angle. Then I imagine if I had to file in that direction away from me, what hand will I be holding the file with, left or right. That's my way of determining angles. It's just I have the classic Medeco pin kit and it looked liked some pins were missing so I was thinking it may have been dropped. So I want to put the correct pins in the correct place in the pin kit. So I was trying to look at the pin itself and trying to determine the angle. I gave up so far.
To determine the angle of a Medeco pin (Original or Biaxial/M3) is to look at the top; use the small tab that sticks out of the side and the location of the gate. For Original pins the locator tab will be 90 degrees off from the gate on a center pin, or 180 degrees off from the gate on a Biaxial/M3 pin. The left and right angled pins are easy enough to determine from there. LAB makes a very good Biaxial/M3 decoder which also decodes the pins for those series.
At 9:10, he talks about the difference between marks from set pins vs marks from binding pins, with binding ones being "better defined". How can I learn more about telling these marks apart? Where can I really see the difference, or hear about their distinguishing characteristics?
In another comment, poster Nite 0wl says, "I find the biggest differentiator between marks from binding pins and pins that are just a thousandth of an inch too high and should be left alone is that marks from binding pins will be almost perfectly circular while pins just a minuscule amount off from perfect will tend to be slightly oblong from side to side."
Interesting approach. I see you ignoring marks as 'they are at shearline already'. I know a false mark when I see it. But my understanding is a good impressioned key will leave no marks, even at shearline. This means your cuts are just too high and leave a virtual mark. I do not have this lock so cannot try it myself. Try filing a tiny bit on the spots with a virtual mark. It should not return.
The 'achieved shear line' mark is noticeably deeper and usually slightly oblong as it is formed by the bevel or crown on the top of the key pin forcing the pin into the key for the last tiny fraction of an inch, the marks left by a binding pin will be smaller and more rounded.
I find it difficult to tell the difference in the marks -- that is the hard part -- if you file to deep you can keep leaving impressioning marks as the driver is now forcing the key pin below the shear line = Oops!
I find the biggest differentiator between marks from binding pins and pins that are just a thousandth of an inch too high and should be left alone is that marks from binding pins will be almost perfectly circular while pins just a minuscule amount off from perfect will tend to be slightly oblong from side to side.
Brass keys are preferred, especially old Star or modern Jet blanks which are softer. Nickel plated or nickel silver blanks are harder and don't mark well. Ink, soot, and other dyes are generally unhelpful for impressioning pin tumbler or wafer locks because inserting and removing the key tends to smear them all over the place, those methods are very helpful for impressioning warded and lever locks though.
Controlling distribution of key blanks is one of the foundations of most mechanical lock security. On the other hand you can now buy boxes of the more common types of blanks (KW1, SC1, and a few others) on Amazon or other online retailers with little difficulty as long as you have around $20.
@@Nite0wl i just checked amazon didn't know they sold key blanks sc1 box of 50 LOL. my wife would think i gone nuts. thanks for the info, i'll put this on my list of things to learn it will take a while to get to but its something and thats enough.
Great job!It’s kind of a relief to know that you replaced the pins(As I kinda felt incompetent after not being able to do it with OEM ones(As they wouldn’t mark for shit 😂) PS:In regards to impressioning files creating vertical cuts, I was thinking, wouldn’t it be awesome if they made files with a trapezoid profile.
A trapezoidal file would be great for that (a few people have brought the concept up in the past) but then you end up in the same situation that makes key machine owners need half a dozen cutting wheels to match the different angles and widths different locks require. Using a pippen file or a round file and a flat (or triangular) file can get you a good equivalent result. And yes, Kwikset's OEM pins (and their clones) are terrible for marking because of their flat tips. In the rare event that a lock with such pins would need to be impressioned instead of being picked and decoded you are probably better off with 'soft medium' impressioning.
@Nite 0wl Actually, I think that two widths (Narrow(For things like Master padlock and most wafer locks(Including auto)keys and wide(For Kwikset and the old Ford 5-cut(H50 H51)pin tumbler keys )would suffice for the majority of applications(Like you can with just two cutters(I.e The CW1011 and CW-14MC for the Blitz):In regards to not ever needing to impression a Kwikset, yes you're absolutely right, and that's why I would be happy even if they made such files with a standard(Coarse)cut, (For fitting keys by hand)
If you want only 2 profiles, narrow for small padlock keys and wide for large cylinder keys like Schlage and Corbin Russwin, Kwikset is much wider than other cylinder keys and would need to either be worked side to side or a third wider profile would be needed. Consider the list of HPC key machine cutting wheels, you can do a huge variety with just the CW-1011 and CW-14MC but if you dont want to take extra steps they make a special cutter (CW-1014) for Kwikset without needing to widen the cuts: www.hudsonlock.com/cutters.html
Nite 0wl Yeah I know about that(And I do intend to purchase the CW1014 when I finally get a Blitz machine(As I want the convenience of 1 step cutting for Kwikset))But with that being said, ok, I’ll concede that three widths(Narrow,Wide and Extra-Wide(Or Extra-Narrow,Narrow and Wide(Whatever phrasing floats your boat lol)) would be allow you to tackle most applications
At the price of cutting wheels you will need to cut a lot of Kwikset keys to make up the cost compared to simply doing the extra horizontal motion when using the 14MC.
Looks like he used a 0 bitting space and depth key to prepare that blank. For magnification, try drug store reading glasses. 2.00 up to 3.00 After filing, how about a wee bit of 800 grit sand paper to let marks show up better? So far I have not succeeded at one of these. Just asking, not tutoring.
Great explanation and tutorial on impressioning, it is definitely an art to get it right the first time, you are good at it. I seem to have a tough time, I end up using more blanks then I care to waste haha. I am a hobby lock picker and buy a lot of padlocks without keys and 90% of them can't be disassembled for decoding..so I started impressioning some of them and had some luck with a few but found it annoying with the ugly looking keys..so after some thought about an easier way it came to me....I think I may have made the worlds first pin profile copying jig. To make a really long story semi short..I pick the lock opened and jam a shim into the side of the tumbler to hold it unlocked, I turn the lock upside down so all the pins fall and rest at bitting profile against the cylinder. I clamp the lock into the jig and insert the pin reader, slide the stylus in the track and it transfers the exact pin profile to scale onto a piece of blue masking tape using more or less a seesaw type device that slides side to side with a hook pick (pin reader) on one end and a ultra fine 005 marker on the other...I then peel the tape off the jig and cut it out with scissors and stick it to the blank key and grind. Works 100% accurate every time. I will send you the link to check it out when I make a vid of it.
Revisiting this video again. I like how you index the blank first with the originator and using the key gauge for depths.
Except for the fact that you started off with the spacing already made by a key cutting machine, instead of showing how to do it manually (as expected by at least me), you made an excellent tutorial, thank you.
You can speed up the impressioning process by using a set of depth & spacer keys. Put Neolube on all keys and start the first cut in an area that doesn't show a mark. Then repeat the process until you get clear marks on each depth.
Like the way that you explain in detail. I have never done a key before but would like to try. The key I want to make is for a master trailer coupler lock 1970 ish. They take a standard master pad lock key, I know because I already own one and am thinking of buying another one with no key for 1/3 the price. That's if you can find them at all! I have two trailers and would like the same type lock for each. Ok back to my questions. Never done this before so this may be a silly question, can you use a marker (or erasable type) on the shiny brass to enhance the marks that you are looking for when they are leaving the marks? Also you mentioned getting the key stuck. So that because EVERY filed groove has to have a taper to the valley so what ever they catch on has a "slope upwards "for the key to ride up in removing it? And lastly looking at my other short Master keys they all seem to have a total of 4 valleys, so does that mean I am looking for 4 marks? Thanks in advance for your answers and the detailed video you took the time to make.
Well explained tutorial, I like that impressioning key handle, pro tools are always worth spending the money for. ✌😎
Thanks.
Some pro tools really make a huge difference, some just make things a tiny bit easier (or last longer), but there are tons of 'pro' tools that are huge wastes of money (see SE Lock and Key's recent video on the HPC Pocker Decoder for one egregious example).
@@Nite0wl yes, true and true. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's any good. :/ I try and do research before I commit to an expensive purchase.
Yeah, I have been burned that way a few times. It is a rare thing that a tool will be completely useless (like my HPC pocket decoder) but I have plenty that mostly just take up space in drawers.
Good and detailed video. A little hard to see the difference between different marks (real marks, virtual marks, etc.) but you covered a lot of ground well. I'd suggest Oliver Diederichsen's book for people that would want to look at some nice and close images of impression marks.
Olivers book is good but the approach is far from optimal. Mostly as research continues and books are frozen snippets of past knowledge. The pictures are good.
@@jwrm22 Yeah, I bought it primarily for the pictures. The German to English translation is far from great also.
Nice job impressioning . I have no problem with wafer locks, but pin locks give me trouble. 👍👍👍👍🧡
I should probably give some wafer locks a try. It might help me learn.
Nice video! It's amazing how fast people that do this competitively get. Personally I'm terrible at impressioning.
I am always amazed by how quick people like Jos and the other serious competitors impression things in competitions. I am no where near their level and don't even consider myself worthy of entering competitions but thought I would share some basic tips to help people who are just starting out.
When I was in school I had this idea to help my impressioning. I wrote down the depth of cut for a lock like Schlage, for example. Then I start my impressioning and file where I saw the mark. After each filing, I would take my micrometers and measure how much was left on the key. For me, I would go down 1 depth for every three filings. But that depends on how fine your file is also. Just a little tip. I don't use key gauges from HPC that much, not accurate enough for me unless it's an original Schlage key gauge.
The Schlage OEM key gauge is actually made by LAB, as are Schlage's OEM pins and pin kits. The key gauge I used in this video is LAB's 2-in-1 Kwikset and Schlage gauge which was included with a LAB parts kit. For high precision measurements of keys I have a Foley-Belsaw key micrometer but for general impressioning with a known depth system the sheet metal gauges are good enough. If I need precision out to .0001" I would be decoding pins and cutting by code on my Blitz machine.
@@Nite0wl Interesting. I hardly find myself using decoders anymore. As of now, I'm trying to figure how to sight read the Medeco Biaxial pins. I have it on some notes written down somewhere. I'm trying to determine the pin angle by looking at the pin.
@@ken_9359 Reading the angles is the easy part, there are only 3 possible angles: Perpendicular, and 20° left or right (read with the bow on your left). By default Biaxial only uses 6 depths in .025" increments (there is a rare 'half-step' depth system used for very large master key systems similar to the one used for the Omega variant of Medeco Original). The hardest part of sight reading Biaxial and M3 is reliably determining the fore and aft displacement of the cuts which are +/-.031" off the nominal center of each chamber.
@@Nite0wl Yeah, the key is no problem reading. My method is to have the tip of the key facing away from me and look at the angle. Then I imagine if I had to file in that direction away from me, what hand will I be holding the file with, left or right. That's my way of determining angles. It's just I have the classic Medeco pin kit and it looked liked some pins were missing so I was thinking it may have been dropped. So I want to put the correct pins in the correct place in the pin kit. So I was trying to look at the pin itself and trying to determine the angle. I gave up so far.
To determine the angle of a Medeco pin (Original or Biaxial/M3) is to look at the top; use the small tab that sticks out of the side and the location of the gate. For Original pins the locator tab will be 90 degrees off from the gate on a center pin, or 180 degrees off from the gate on a Biaxial/M3 pin. The left and right angled pins are easy enough to determine from there. LAB makes a very good Biaxial/M3 decoder which also decodes the pins for those series.
Any better pics and explanation of the visual difference between needing more filing and a mark of the tumblers at shear line?
For a tour championship do all cylinders have the same cutting code for all keys (alike) or all different?
Nice job 👍.
At 9:10, he talks about the difference between marks from set pins vs marks from binding pins, with binding ones being "better defined". How can I learn more about telling these marks apart? Where can I really see the difference, or hear about their distinguishing characteristics?
In another comment, poster Nite 0wl says,
"I find the biggest differentiator between marks from binding pins and pins that are just a thousandth of an inch too high and should be left alone is that marks from binding pins will be almost perfectly circular while pins just a minuscule amount off from perfect will tend to be slightly oblong from side to side."
So does the magnifying glass really help?
Interesting approach. I see you ignoring marks as 'they are at shearline already'. I know a false mark when I see it. But my understanding is a good impressioned key will leave no marks, even at shearline. This means your cuts are just too high and leave a virtual mark. I do not have this lock so cannot try it myself. Try filing a tiny bit on the spots with a virtual mark. It should not return.
That is correct. In this case the cut is perhaps .001" too high so simply ignoring it is safer when using a coarse file.
Should've known i'd see you here :P. And so my research continues....
But can you do it with factory flat bottom pins?
In theory, yes. In practice, it is much faster and easier to pick then pull the core and decode.
Thanks for the tutorial. 🔓
Very Nice!! can you just explain the difference between an achieved shearline mark, and a "needs more filing" mark?
The 'achieved shear line' mark is noticeably deeper and usually slightly oblong as it is formed by the bevel or crown on the top of the key pin forcing the pin into the key for the last tiny fraction of an inch, the marks left by a binding pin will be smaller and more rounded.
Fantastic tutorial my friend👍😊👍😎✌
Thank you.
Very informative, thank you.
Very cool my friend
I find it difficult to tell the difference in the marks -- that is the hard part -- if you file to deep you can keep leaving impressioning marks as the driver is now forcing the key pin below the shear line = Oops!
The problem is you'll never know how close you got. All you know then is you filed too deep.
I find the biggest differentiator between marks from binding pins and pins that are just a thousandth of an inch too high and should be left alone is that marks from binding pins will be almost perfectly circular while pins just a minuscule amount off from perfect will tend to be slightly oblong from side to side.
Hello, you need a brass key, or a specific type of key for good impression ? thanks for the demo. nice jauge btw. cant some carbon paper ink help ?
Brass keys are preferred, especially old Star or modern Jet blanks which are softer. Nickel plated or nickel silver blanks are harder and don't mark well. Ink, soot, and other dyes are generally unhelpful for impressioning pin tumbler or wafer locks because inserting and removing the key tends to smear them all over the place, those methods are very helpful for impressioning warded and lever locks though.
@@Nite0wl thank you !
i been thinking and getting key blanks might be a problem for some of us, good video btw
Controlling distribution of key blanks is one of the foundations of most mechanical lock security. On the other hand you can now buy boxes of the more common types of blanks (KW1, SC1, and a few others) on Amazon or other online retailers with little difficulty as long as you have around $20.
@@Nite0wl
i just checked amazon didn't know they sold key blanks sc1 box of 50 LOL. my wife would think i gone nuts. thanks for the info, i'll put this on my list of things to learn it will take a while to get to but its something and thats enough.
Great job!It’s kind of a relief to know that you replaced the pins(As I kinda felt incompetent after not being able to do it with OEM ones(As they wouldn’t mark for shit 😂) PS:In regards to impressioning files creating vertical cuts, I was thinking, wouldn’t it be awesome if they made files with a trapezoid profile.
A trapezoidal file would be great for that (a few people have brought the concept up in the past) but then you end up in the same situation that makes key machine owners need half a dozen cutting wheels to match the different angles and widths different locks require. Using a pippen file or a round file and a flat (or triangular) file can get you a good equivalent result.
And yes, Kwikset's OEM pins (and their clones) are terrible for marking because of their flat tips. In the rare event that a lock with such pins would need to be impressioned instead of being picked and decoded you are probably better off with 'soft medium' impressioning.
@Nite 0wl Actually, I think that two widths (Narrow(For things like Master padlock and most wafer locks(Including auto)keys and wide(For Kwikset and the old Ford 5-cut(H50 H51)pin tumbler keys )would suffice for the majority of applications(Like you can with just two cutters(I.e The CW1011 and CW-14MC for the Blitz):In regards to not ever needing to impression a Kwikset, yes you're absolutely right, and that's why I would be happy even if they made such files with a standard(Coarse)cut, (For fitting keys by hand)
If you want only 2 profiles, narrow for small padlock keys and wide for large cylinder keys like Schlage and Corbin Russwin, Kwikset is much wider than other cylinder keys and would need to either be worked side to side or a third wider profile would be needed.
Consider the list of HPC key machine cutting wheels, you can do a huge variety with just the CW-1011 and CW-14MC but if you dont want to take extra steps they make a special cutter (CW-1014) for Kwikset without needing to widen the cuts: www.hudsonlock.com/cutters.html
Nite 0wl Yeah I know about that(And I do intend to purchase the CW1014 when I finally get a Blitz machine(As I want the convenience of 1 step cutting for Kwikset))But with that being said, ok, I’ll concede that three widths(Narrow,Wide and Extra-Wide(Or Extra-Narrow,Narrow and Wide(Whatever phrasing floats your boat lol)) would be allow you to tackle most applications
At the price of cutting wheels you will need to cut a lot of Kwikset keys to make up the cost compared to simply doing the extra horizontal motion when using the 14MC.
ಒಂದು ಬೀಗದ ಕಾಯಿ ನಲ್ಲಿ ಎಷ್ಟು ಸಾರಿ ಇಂಪ್ರೆಷನ್ ಮಾಡಬಹುದು
Good stuff! 👌
Looks like he used a 0 bitting space and depth key to prepare that blank.
For magnification, try drug store reading glasses. 2.00 up to 3.00
After filing, how about a wee bit of 800 grit sand paper to let marks show up better?
So far I have not succeeded at one of these. Just asking, not tutoring.
How many times key impressions can be taken from one lock set
please help
Unlimited until the set breaks
Better, however, to make 1 working copy then copy that using the orthodox methods
Is this a diamond file?
Nice sir 👍
Exelente explicación 😊
Thank you
The crisp audio with the stereo mic is making me uncomfortable...it sounds like you are right behind me lol
great vid but way too complex for me and sorry but i could not see the marks
👍👍👍
Car key