I think the cultural context does brought in another level of emotion. Evelyn's struggle in the first act really represents a lot of Asian parents who give up everything for their child and to shuffle between responsibilities. The daughter is the guilt of not living up to those expectations. It hit too close to home for me but that's what makes it so beautiful and instant classic for me.
Brian mentioned that he wished that there was a "scene" at the beginning that would preview that Joy would become Jobu Tupaki. That's the scene that was added after the Daniels had test screened the movie to an audience. It is the scene after Evelyn tell Joy that she "Is getting fat." It is a 3-4 second scene where Joy is driving away and she is upset and crying. That little scene gets me every time.
As a moviegoer that just went along with this film's wide ride, I like that it was not initially clear either to the audience or to Evelyn if, when, or where she felt she took a wrong turn, since that lack of clarity and messiness can be reflective of real life.
Thank you for discussing this wonderfully creative film. I love the description of it being an Internet/TikTok movie. It left my local theatre a couple of weeks ago, but is back this weekend, and I'm tempted to watch it again. Glad you all have fun plans for the summer. See you in two weeks!
I do have to say that as a stay-at-home mom who's also an unpublished novelist and a professional doll artist, the line "She thinks her hobbies are businesses," HURT. Though the friend I watched it with (an illustrator, freelance artist, and art tutor) pointed out that no one would say that to a male protagonist. Maybe that he was unlucky in his side hustles, but no one would call them hobbies. Was a little grumpy that the movie never gave catharsis for that particular problem.
That's real. (I felt similar about the "you are getting fat" remark). That said, I think the resolution of the hobbies remark was that in other universes Evelyn had actually gone on to pursue her dreams (i.e. was actually a singer, a chef, an actor, etc). And because one of the key themes of the movie is that the upside of abandoning your dreams (like Evelyn) is that you are left with endless unlocked potential, I saw the message as ultimately hopeful (not judgmental). Curious to hear your thoughts. Appreciate your vulnerability either way!
A big part of this is cultural. As an Asian American immigrant who came to the States during early childhood, there is a tremendous push from the older generation of my cultural cohort to push toward highly profitable and technical jobs. Many potential careers get robbed of their ultimate worth and significance.
I think the catharsis for me was that in other worlds where things had turned out differently, she has become successful in those unlocked potentials. Unfortunately in this world, to a tax officer, the husband could only offer it as an excuse of a hobby no matter how seriously Evelyn took her craft
@@GordonGordon I agree. I wouldn't be offended by the hobby statement being sexist. To this day, my Asian parents still think that my job is a hobby as it doesn't bring in the financial stability that they expect from their children.
This movie had me sobbing in the cinema. 😭😭I really respect the way that even those who didn't appreciate some elements of the movie went out of their way to see how it was a consistent part of the story telling. All round great discussion, I think the "soft focus" complaint was also due to the "Tik-Tok generation"-ness of it all - but you also acknowledged that.
As of writing this, I am halfway through the discussion. But I think the reason why the want and character beats wasn’t clear is because of the unique dynamic of a multicultural immigrant family.
I suspect part of the difference in opinion comes from "Hollywood" movie sensibilities, where the plots are more obviously signposted (spoonfed) to the audience. This being an indie production, relies more on the audience paying more careful attention as the story is developing. Despite that, it's done well enough that any initial confusion is clarified by the end.
It's open to interpretation, but I think the most satisfying way to watch it is to assume that none of the multiverse stuff is real. The real story being told is that Evelyn daydreams to escape her problems. The more stressful things get for her, the more she escapes into a fantasy world to avoid her problems. She's got a suicidal daughter, an unfulfilling life, a jerkwad father, and IRS issues, and when her husband serves her divorce papers she breaks down and falls into herself to escape. If you look at the metaverse stuff in terms of dream logic and where her character is in life, the random stuff starts to pop and really make sense. All of the metavers versions of all the characters are projections from Evelyn's psyche, and they're either caricatured versions of how she sees them, or wish fulfillment versions of how she wants them to be. Evelyn is a confrontational person, she fights, so when she can't take it anymore, she imagines an action movie, and an action-movie version of her husband who can fight along side her. It's not until later in the movie that she realizes her actual husband has been the one fighting with her all along, but fighting with kindness and cookies (even cookie can be kung fu 😉). It's how she gets the extra time to finish her taxes at the start of the movie and it's how the tax issue is resolved later at the laundromat. All the time that Evelyn has been confrontational and thinking her husband was weak, he's been behind the scenes actually winning battles for her, and she finally has a breakthrough in the end when she realizes this. Jobu Topaki is how Evelyn sees Joy. Joy is young, and hasn't painted herself into a corner with her life choices yet the way Evelyn has. She sees Joy as able to do anything, her life could take any direction. There is an incredible character arc hiding in plain sight. The false ending of the action movie is the moment when daydreaming Evelyn, sitting behind her desk at home, overwhemed by taxes, realizes that fighting ins't working, and she gives up to nihalism (until she makes her Waymond realization). If she can't fight, the action movie ends. The best hint that this is the way the movie works is that there is no multiverse BS in the last 'universe'. At the laundromat no one wears a bluetooth headset, no one knows kung fu and no one explodes into confetti. It's the real, normal world where Evelyn eventually applies the stuff she figures out in her fantasy. Another tip off is that Becky doesn't get to help Joy with her existential crisis. Evelyn could lean on Waymond to get her through hers, but Evelyn can't fanasize a relationship resolution for a relationship that she wasn't a member of, so there's no multiverse version of Becky to come and help talk Joy down from the edge. It's kept ambiguous on purpose, the scene at the elevator, when she clues into the divorce papers is where she really has her breakdown...and the only real tip off is that the aspect ratio changes for the first time. This is the start of the 2nd act. It's when the hard break from reality happens. Just before this scene, with a throw away line, James Hong says 'you are always daydreamimg'. The 'rules' of the multiverse don't matter. What matters is what her daydream says about who she is and how she grows as a character. The events of the daydream are a deep dive into Evelyn's subconsious as she works through a mid-life crisis. Like a more redemptive version of Mulholland Drive. I would love to hear that the 4 of you sat down and re-watched it again with this in mind. It's really a skeleton key that opens an already deep movie into something way more subtle and complex.
I like your idea and have thought it through from the perspective that it was all a visualization of her inner turmoil. My only disagreement with you is that she had a breakdown after she was served when she obviously started to lose it before and not as a result of getting the divorce papers.
I think the cultural context does brought in another level of emotion. Evelyn's struggle in the first act really represents a lot of Asian parents who give up everything for their child and to shuffle between responsibilities. The daughter is the guilt of not living up to those expectations. It hit too close to home for me but that's what makes it so beautiful and instant classic for me.
Brian mentioned that he wished that there was a "scene" at the beginning that would preview that Joy would become Jobu Tupaki. That's the scene that was added after the Daniels had test screened the movie to an audience. It is the scene after Evelyn tell Joy that she "Is getting fat." It is a 3-4 second scene where Joy is driving away and she is upset and crying. That little scene gets me every time.
As a moviegoer that just went along with this film's wide ride, I like that it was not initially clear either to the audience or to Evelyn if, when, or where she felt she took a wrong turn, since that lack of clarity and messiness can be reflective of real life.
Thank you for discussing this wonderfully creative film. I love the description of it being an Internet/TikTok movie. It left my local theatre a couple of weeks ago, but is back this weekend, and I'm tempted to watch it again. Glad you all have fun plans for the summer. See you in two weeks!
I do have to say that as a stay-at-home mom who's also an unpublished novelist and a professional doll artist, the line "She thinks her hobbies are businesses," HURT. Though the friend I watched it with (an illustrator, freelance artist, and art tutor) pointed out that no one would say that to a male protagonist. Maybe that he was unlucky in his side hustles, but no one would call them hobbies. Was a little grumpy that the movie never gave catharsis for that particular problem.
That's real. (I felt similar about the "you are getting fat" remark). That said, I think the resolution of the hobbies remark was that in other universes Evelyn had actually gone on to pursue her dreams (i.e. was actually a singer, a chef, an actor, etc). And because one of the key themes of the movie is that the upside of abandoning your dreams (like Evelyn) is that you are left with endless unlocked potential, I saw the message as ultimately hopeful (not judgmental).
Curious to hear your thoughts. Appreciate your vulnerability either way!
A big part of this is cultural. As an Asian American immigrant who came to the States during early childhood, there is a tremendous push from the older generation of my cultural cohort to push toward highly profitable and technical jobs. Many potential careers get robbed of their ultimate worth and significance.
I think the catharsis for me was that in other worlds where things had turned out differently, she has become successful in those unlocked potentials. Unfortunately in this world, to a tax officer, the husband could only offer it as an excuse of a hobby no matter how seriously Evelyn took her craft
@@GordonGordon I agree. I wouldn't be offended by the hobby statement being sexist. To this day, my Asian parents still think that my job is a hobby as it doesn't bring in the financial stability that they expect from their children.
I don't think that was sexist at all. I've heard that said to men all the time. Also, Weymond was just trying to be succinct in the movie.
This movie had me sobbing in the cinema. 😭😭I really respect the way that even those who didn't appreciate some elements of the movie went out of their way to see how it was a consistent part of the story telling. All round great discussion, I think the "soft focus" complaint was also due to the "Tik-Tok generation"-ness of it all - but you also acknowledged that.
As of writing this, I am halfway through the discussion. But I think the reason why the want and character beats wasn’t clear is because of the unique dynamic of a multicultural immigrant family.
I suspect part of the difference in opinion comes from "Hollywood" movie sensibilities, where the plots are more obviously signposted (spoonfed) to the audience. This being an indie production, relies more on the audience paying more careful attention as the story is developing. Despite that, it's done well enough that any initial confusion is clarified by the end.
Are you guys ever going to review The Northman?
How do you guys record your episodes, being that you all seem to be in remote locations?
We use a web app called Riverside.fm to record remotely
How are they watching this at home? Do they have special privledge?
It's open to interpretation, but I think the most satisfying way to watch it is to assume that none of the multiverse stuff is real.
The real story being told is that Evelyn daydreams to escape her problems. The more stressful things get for her, the more she escapes into a fantasy world to avoid her problems. She's got a suicidal daughter, an unfulfilling life, a jerkwad father, and IRS issues, and when her husband serves her divorce papers she breaks down and falls into herself to escape. If you look at the metaverse stuff in terms of dream logic and where her character is in life, the random stuff starts to pop and really make sense. All of the metavers versions of all the characters are projections from Evelyn's psyche, and they're either caricatured versions of how she sees them, or wish fulfillment versions of how she wants them to be.
Evelyn is a confrontational person, she fights, so when she can't take it anymore, she imagines an action movie, and an action-movie version of her husband who can fight along side her. It's not until later in the movie that she realizes her actual husband has been the one fighting with her all along, but fighting with kindness and cookies (even cookie can be kung fu 😉). It's how she gets the extra time to finish her taxes at the start of the movie and it's how the tax issue is resolved later at the laundromat. All the time that Evelyn has been confrontational and thinking her husband was weak, he's been behind the scenes actually winning battles for her, and she finally has a breakthrough in the end when she realizes this.
Jobu Topaki is how Evelyn sees Joy. Joy is young, and hasn't painted herself into a corner with her life choices yet the way Evelyn has. She sees Joy as able to do anything, her life could take any direction.
There is an incredible character arc hiding in plain sight. The false ending of the action movie is the moment when daydreaming Evelyn, sitting behind her desk at home, overwhemed by taxes, realizes that fighting ins't working, and she gives up to nihalism (until she makes her Waymond realization). If she can't fight, the action movie ends.
The best hint that this is the way the movie works is that there is no multiverse BS in the last 'universe'. At the laundromat no one wears a bluetooth headset, no one knows kung fu and no one explodes into confetti. It's the real, normal world where Evelyn eventually applies the stuff she figures out in her fantasy. Another tip off is that Becky doesn't get to help Joy with her existential crisis. Evelyn could lean on Waymond to get her through hers, but Evelyn can't fanasize a relationship resolution for a relationship that she wasn't a member of, so there's no multiverse version of Becky to come and help talk Joy down from the edge.
It's kept ambiguous on purpose, the scene at the elevator, when she clues into the divorce papers is where she really has her breakdown...and the only real tip off is that the aspect ratio changes for the first time. This is the start of the 2nd act. It's when the hard break from reality happens. Just before this scene, with a throw away line, James Hong says 'you are always daydreamimg'.
The 'rules' of the multiverse don't matter. What matters is what her daydream says about who she is and how she grows as a character. The events of the daydream are a deep dive into Evelyn's subconsious as she works through a mid-life crisis. Like a more redemptive version of Mulholland Drive.
I would love to hear that the 4 of you sat down and re-watched it again with this in mind. It's really a skeleton key that opens an already deep movie into something way more subtle and complex.
Wonderful comment! Gives me lots of food for thought.
I like your idea and have thought it through from the perspective that it was all a visualization of her inner turmoil. My only disagreement with you is that she had a breakdown after she was served when she obviously started to lose it before and not as a result of getting the divorce papers.