I LOVED THIS DISCUSSION!!! The way these guys intelligently and respectfully picked apart the acronym T. U. L. I. P. was beautiful!!! Keep standing on and studying the Word of God to show yourselves approved of God!! Awesome!! ❤️👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🙏🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽
God bless you Hazakim. I'm not reformed, never have been, but was mostly introduced to it through my favorite rappers. Some of the components of TULIP I don't flat out dispute but I definitely do not have a firm scriptural grasp on for or against. What I love is that Hazakim can say I don't get this and not be hateful about it.. or thrown out the room by the others.
Ahhh, this is why I come here, never heard of tulip, I listen to all these artists individually though, now I got more music to check out, and look at Iron sharpen iron, meanwhile in secular rap they are all trying to stab eachother in the back, now this theology and exegesis and discussion is why these cats are on target with the Gospel in their music, speaking sense and not babel like on radio.
Thank you for this. I see 4 men who love God's word enough to think as hard and as deep as they can go about it, enough to value consensus and division, because it's that important. And, you put the text above yourself and let it judge your reasoning rather than the other way around. This is love for God and neighbor (each other). Praise God for you! Keep it up!
Now first and foremost I want to commend you for having this genuine, humble, yet convicted conversation. Sadly I've seen too many parishioners and even elders here in Germany - and also in the US, e.g. Calvary Chapel - having been kicked out of their churches because they hold to Reformed Theology. So thumbs up for talking as brothers in love about this important topic. One question that kept coming up in my mind was when Hazakim kept saying that he doesn't want to use extra-biblical words and concepts, yet he used the concept of "prevenient grace" - even though he never named it that way - which cannot be found in the Scriptures. The other question is if Hazakim then also cannot say that he believes in the Trinity, since that term is extra-biblical, yet the New Testament breaths the doctrine from every page. Just food for thought to have a consistent theology, because "inconsistency id the sign of a failed argument" - Dr. James White. Thank you guys from a brother on the other side of the world who prays that you'll keep up the great work in the Lord, for it is not in vain (1Cor 15:58). SDG.
I absolutely love your discussions and get so exited by it. I am so happy that I have brothers in Christ all across the world. I sometimes gets lonely in this narrow and straight path of righteousness. But God always leads me to these valleys of peace...
loved this discussion. look back to it many time. think its important to determine what is mystery vs what God has revealed for us to know in the Scriptures.
Amen brothers! A godly example of how we could disagree in certain theological viewpoints (nonessential to salvation) and keep the peace and stand united on primary foundation, the Gospel! Soli Deo Gloria! God bless y'all and may the Lamb receive His Glory!
Though I consider myself as a monergist (Reformed), I so love my fellow synergist brothers and sisters in Christ. However, I think the problem with the synergists is how do they deal with a Roman Catholic believer on these issues, since that person is kind of on the same page with them regarding the question of salvation. Anyway, I really enjoyed the fellowship in this video. God bless you, guys!
Excellent discussion guys. I started my walk with God as a Armanian, believing I could lose my salvation, as well as believing many other errors . Through study and listening to preachers of all sides I would now consider myself an independent fundamental baptist. I am always learning and confirming to the word as the Holy Spirit enlightens me. Right now I would say that I am in the same camp as Hazakim. I am willing to go where the scriptures take me, but I can't understand God.
Encouraging to see brother believers discussing good theology in Christian humility! Praise God for the powerful reality behind those letters in tulip, exhibited in the Scriptures!
I LIKE TONY! TREAD LIGHTLY< THINK IT THROUGH MATCH UP TO THE TOTAL WORD, THAT IS RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH! COOL CONVERSATION GUYS...LOVE THE MUSIC!
here in Barcelona spain im going to baptist church (reformed theology ) anda before pentecostal church but no understand the bible.. but now is amanzing.. GOD bless u brothas.
I think the topic of limited atonement or definite atonement is saying, God's blood and Atonement is sufficient for all, but only effective for those that trust in Him. So His blood is sufficient to save the world, but will be only effective for those that put their trust in Christ...which will be the Elect of God.
David Melendez no, limited atonement means salvation is only available for a small percentage of people which means there many hurting and struggling people in sin who have no hope of salvation and cannot call out to Christ. It's pure rubbish
Mathew 22:14 "Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” Then the Pharisees went out and plotted to trap Jesus in His words.…" Not all people are going to Heaven. I think we can both agree to that. There are many hurting, and struggling people in sin with no hope of salvation, and cannot call out to Christ. Actually I was one of them, Psalm 14; Romans 1; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Timothy 2:26. But thats why we as Christians are suppose to preach the Gospel to the whole World as if each person is the elect of God. I do not know who God has pre-chosen, or who He allowed to continue in their sin. I disagree that its rubbish, but we are all entitled to our own perspective.
Hazakim is on point. Don't define yourself by a way of human understanding but take the scriptures for what they say in their entirety. It has to be both, it's God's sovereignty and free will. There are things we will never be understood by us. Lets just do our job, Matt. 28, the Great Commission.
..just lift his name up and follow his ways..things don't have to be complicated. give him the praise he deserves . repent when you make mistakes and stay in the word and prayer..god bless everyone AMEN..
I completely agree with Hazakim and the points he made. It's best to tread lightly on things we're uncertain about. We're told in scriptures also, not to debate over doubtful things. I think many Calvanist and those who feel they must tag themselves with some unbiblical name, have a voracity for debates and quarrels, which edify nobody. They have taken the simplicity of the Gospel and turned it into some egotistically philosophical dare I say, gnosis-ish type thing, and I didn't mean gnosticism, I meant an obsession with accumulating knowledge but not all of it is neccessary, useful for edification or even truthful and simply leads to quarrels. There are some that I have seen, where it seems as though they esteem an abundance of philosophy over the simplicity of the Gospel. In certain things I find Calvanism to be if not teaching another doctrine, very close to it. But even if you're a peson in disagreement with all of that, calling yourself a Calvanist, or whatever, is carnal. Paul explained the carnality in this. "For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?". 1 Corinthians 3:3-4. Can't a person who believes everything the Bible says and lives it, simply say that they're a disciple of Jesus Christ and that be evident by the fruits that person produces? Not by saying, "Oh, i'm a calvanist". Things like this cause division in the Church and God doesn't want us to behave carnal like "mere men". These guys kept it pretty calm, this isn't how many discussions with calvanist and those who disagree with them go.
This is great. Iron sharpening iron like a cloud of Bereans. This is the Fathers will for us: to gather and share our obsession over Him and test scripture and theology.
I love that you did this show. Hip hop on theology. I've been a full 5 pointer for a least twelve year's. I still don't like the "L" but I believe it. I can totally understand why people have a problem with reformed theology. That is what study and conversation comes into play. God bless you brothers. To GOD be the Glory.
You know, if out of aaaaallll humanity He graciously saved one, that's a looooot more grace than we can wrap our sinful heads around. I do not have the right to "not like it". I would even venture to say it's disrespectful to my Creator and God, who has mercy on me, when He does NOT have to, and shouldn't!
Also on the topic of irresistible Grace also called invincible grace which I think the latter is more accurate. It is saying that you may resist at times, but eventually God will have His way over yours. You may fight, you may wrestle, but when He give you that new heart of flesh, and takes away your heart of stone, and puts His Spirit in you, when your eyes are opened, when God does that spiritual miracle work in your heart, you can't help but to repent and trust upon the Lord with the new enabled heart that God has enabled you. AW Pink I think refers to this Invincible Grace in His works.
I love the chop session amongst the brethren very encouraging. I recall in the chop session someone said that there are things in the Bible we would never know until we get to heaven. Is it possible that God would send a prophet like He did in the new testament to unfold those mysteries? But before that question can be answered what are the things that are mysterious? Anyways, this has been truly a blessing to watch and once again very encouraging to the display of love amongst the brethren.....
What's funny about convos like this (which I LOVE, btw) is, no one is willing to acknowledge that these theological points in the discussion were in fact hashed out and settled many years ago at the counsel of Dort. The debate is over. We only need to look at scripture, and if that's not enough for someone, they can look at history.
I really side more with Hazakim. Alot of what he explained and based on his understanding is really similar to mine. I've been back and forth with this and discussing this with people who hold to reformed theology and or calvinism, and it's like this valley over a hill that I just don't see myself getting over to, it's as if I honestly can't see calvinism as truly biblical....
+Kaylah Erin Turner it isn't...contradicts too much of scripture. Calvinism is where the OSAS false doctrine stems from...limited atonement is not what scripture teaches...man I really don't understand how people come to believing it.
+skalapunk skalapunk, read the whole bible. Jesus died for the world (John 3). But only his sheep will recieve the gift. The gift has been made available to all. When you read and understand the parables of Jesus you will understand; the parable of the wedding is brilliant. As is the parable of the sower and the different soils, as well as the parable of the wheat and tares. You see the 'invite' to 'the wedding' (being the marriage supper of the lamb when Christ returns) is sent to all, but NOT ALL respond to the invite; some were busy, some refused, and all the poor and the ones who were not initially invited are invited, and they are part of the wedding...they're in the kingdom. Then when one turns up not dressed in wedding garments they're excommunicated from the premises. Matthew 22: "2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.” You see, again, in the parable of the sower, that sower is Jesus, and he explains that the field in which he sows is 'the world'...now I will take you to Matthew 13 to show you, hold tight: Matthew 13: "19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” Luke 8: "11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience. BUT HOLD ON TIGHT....the wheat and tares wraps this up NICELY: Matthew 13: 24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds[c] among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn. ...37 ...“The ONE WHO SOWS THE GOOD SEED is THE SON OF MAN. 38 The FIELD IS ***THE WORLD***, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. So, when you understand the atonement, alongside the parables, you will understand that Jesus died for and made the gift of salvation available to all, just like he does in the parables; but not all will receive The free gift; the excuses are outlined in the parables. Jesus died and ransomed for all, knowing that some would reject him. The same way he had mercy and grace on the children of Israel when they were spared from the plagues, when he got them to cover their doorposts with the blood of lambs, got them over the red sea...knowing full well most of them would rebel, would not trust or believe and would fall away...but for the sake of the elect he extended grace even to the rebellious and untoward people of Israel. There are so many points of Calvinism that can be silenced and killed when exegeting scripture alone. If you want a copy of a PDF I'm compiling, I will be breaking down scripture, showing the exact syntax and grammatical break downs, just so it's loud and clear.
When it is written that Jesus died for the " World" the context was to the Jews who thought salvation was just for them, but the word " World" was explaining to them that Salvation is for the Jew and the Gentile :)
Its truly great seeing reformed theology being embraced by young black men. I have been reformed for many years, I know the teaching. However, I must say, the problem I've found with certain points in the doctrine, mainly the teaching of Predestination, a view I held very strongly for many years. The problem begins with their understanding of Foreknowledge. While all will readily agree that one of the attributes of God omniscience . God knows all things past present future, that's a given or it should be. So when speaking of foreknowledge, the real question is, what does God know and when did he know it. This question was a game changer for me. The question I began to ask, what does to, foreknow,, Mean ?! 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. If you notice, Predestination follows, Foreknowledge, it does not precede it, but comes after. This is very important, a point I think the reformers misunderstood. The question of predestination foreknowledge really isn't about what God knew in eternities pass, but rather, what he set forth in knowledge of his intent before man. To really understand this, like Paul, who established his entire doctrine of righteousness in the person of Abraham. Its here, in Abraham where the whole idea of election starts. But before I go any further, remember, all the promises of God to Abraham have their fulfillment in Christ, but that's a long way off, actually nearly nineteen hundred years. Paul tells us that since the days of Abraham, faith do to the law was shoot up, ready to be revealed in the last days, the days of Christ, as Paul said, now that faith has come. For Paul, Abraham through faith, being credited for righteousness, through his faith, found the way, a righteousness in God three hundred years before the law, he had found. Thus. Abraham found peace with God, the righteousness of god, the realm the sanctum of God eternal rest. Therefore in Abraham, the way had been established through faith, to all who believe, to all the seed through faith, Jew or Gentile, then after three hundred years, Egypt fell upon them. This tells me, what God foreknew, is not speaking of his eternal omniscience from eternities past, but rather what he himself established in the earth, with Abraham. So fast forwards nineteen hundred years, into the days of Paul, what you will find is God remembering his promises to Abraham throughout covenant history. So what God foreknew, was what He Promised Abraham, almost two thousand years ago, in time in space, in the mist of world history. To prove, that foreknowledge is about God's historical dealings with old testament Abraham, in the new testament text, and not God's eternal omniscience or knowledge from eternities pass. Question, why do we find God constantly remembering his promises to Abraham, for either Isaac or Jacob sake ?! Because he's not looking back into the endless timeless state of eternity, but locally, only back to his historical dealings with Abraham and his faithful promises. It is upon these historical in time in history promises made to Abraham, election or predestination is founded, not in eternities pass, but historically. For what God foreknew ( All his promises and past historical dealings with faith believing Abraham ) that he predestinated elected. While God certainly knows all things from eternities pass, we all affirm his eternal omniscience. Its the incorrect placement of Predestination an improper placement of his foreknowledge, they got wrong. In other words, Gods foreknowledge here is only concerning his historical dealings with the man Abraham. Now, rightly following his dealing with Abraham, election his son's the nations are set forth, being predestined, now calling those things that be not as though they were, calls them forth, through the word of promise, the historical foreknowledge of God. Its limited, only because men believe not, grace fulfilling to those who believe. He calls literally all, but the seed shall be by faith !! To who believe. To place foreknowledge and predestination into the timelessness of eternity as to who gets in, totally destroys any historical personal faith in Abraham. The just shall live by his faith. Otherwise, Abraham was merely programed from the foreknowledge of eternities pass, to believe, he had no actual choice. This is the great problem with reformed faith. I personally argued these position myself for years. that is until I found the flaw. We clearly see personal faith in Abraham, the reformers destroys this by setting foreknowledge into eternity rather then at the feet of historical Abraham, whom God was constantly mindful of for his children sake. This is why God in his hot wrathful anger, stayed his wrathful hands against his people, for the sake of the promises he made in historical Abraham.
@josephandtavifa That early church understanding of the gospel and finished work of Christ. that is what i truly want to learn and understand. As I'm getting older and actually searching scripture for my self. the more i'm realizing alot of the things i was "taught" growing up isn't all "biblically" correct. I feel like i'm being moved as Ephesians 4:14 would state but it's just because certain aspects i learned growing up are appear false and all i want is to truly understand True Truth
amen, bro. God doesn't merely know what we're going to do or what we would do... he knows US before the foundation of the world - that's what the Scripture says!
First off, I love all my brothers here, as I've been blessed by each of them. And they all made some really good points, some of which I have struggled with and continue to seek God for a confident stance & deeper grasp on truth, that will truly honor and lead to deeper worship of Him. Within the topic though, reformed or Calvinism (which I'm finding are kind of synonymous) I agree with Json " I believe the text" what I believe is not because of man but because it proves to be biblical and in line with Gods nature (not voiding the mystery) as far as what He has and continues to reveal about Himself in scripture and in all that is made and exists including sin and Satan! I believe some of these things are experiential evidence for the Christian. Even the wrestle with truth THIS SIDE of the fall, and the obstinate nature (T. total depravity) we inherited through sin hold insight that I believe God allowed to show His righteousness. We were dead through trespasses and sins and God made us alive in Christ. As Ephesians 1 exclaims over again "He made us alive and chose us in Christ according to HIS own will. These all prove Gods word true and every man a liar. I think the word interprets itself and I. Terms of using extra biblical terms. Let use trinity for example. Not a biblical word. You won't find the word anywhere yet the truth of it is described from cover to cover God revealing Himself as the eternal 3 in 1. The scriptures themselves though written by God He used weak man as His pen and we see over again them seeking do describe as best they can using human words and analysis to describe the truth God was giving them, which is why we need the Real author (Holy Spirit) to open our understanding of what is really being said. Because the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. How I believe God has given me to understand the I. in T.U.L.I.P. Irresistible grace is through the lens of Gods sovereign decree in calling men in particular, like in the raising of Lazarus from the dead. Which I believe illustrates the sovereign, personal, electing love call of God in calling by name those whom He has Chosen from the grave of their sin and trespasses unto Life (which is Himself). Unconditional election it's undeserved and unearned. It's simple and non complex yet mysterious and deep beyond words, a characteristic that seems to mark all God' works and ways. Staking my claim on what God has revealed which is all to be interpreted by The knowledge of Him. This in no way removes or even dims the mystery of God! For not only what He does is a mystery He Himself is the supreme mystery! So Dead men need life and unless its given (grace) they remain dead as they are totally powerless to do this for themselves. Gods grace is irresistible in that, when He speaks and calls a person to life, because He can't lie it must happen. It's that simple, do I understand it all nope! But is it true? Yes! And this is based entirely on who He is and not that person. For He's no respecter of persons. Paul in 2 Corinthians 4:6 compared this calling to life to Gods sovereign creative decree when He created in genesis saying "For God who said, " Let light shine out of darkness," has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. The same way His words made all things and there was nothing He needed but Himself to accomplish that, in the same way when He speaks to dead hearts they come alive. So we are new creations in Christ Jesus. Faith comes by hearing and hearing be the word of God we heard His word, He's the author of our faith and the end of it as well. It's personal in that He calls by name for example as Jesus says in John 10 "His sheep hear His voice and He calls His own by name and leads them out. Saying things like "THEM" denotes separation from. Saying "HIS OWN" denotes personal ownership and separation unto! They are His and they Hear Him and He said in v4 that they know His voice. There's an intimate knowledge eluded to here! He said the opposite of the Pharisees in v26 saying to them "But you don't believe, because you are not among my sheep"..v27 My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me." He knows His sheep He calls them out and they follow Him. Scripture demonstrates this over and over from Abraham to whoever the last person to God will bring to Christ, as God/Christ is preeminent in all things which is the whole point of the Bible and creation all things were made for Him, through Him and to Him.. including who comes to Him and who doesn't (ref John 6:65) and the implications of that is deep and hard but it's true! God has not hidden His motives or works, though they are deep and mysterious and hard to be understood and even accepted! But even this comes by Grace as God is perfect in Himself and is never divided perplexed or deterred and has been resolute from everlasting(the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world). He never changes this tells me that love must be something infinitely wide, longer, higher and deeper than whatever we have seen thus far, and those in Him He is taking us into Himself, Who is Himself Beauty, Joy, Pleasures and our eternal dwelling place, The storehouse of infinite Glory Wisdom and Power and He will last forever and ever with ever increasing experience of His love and delight for the ones who will be with Him forever. God does not have these things in an external way HE IS the omnipotent essence of the very things He gives. Question.. does He owe the gift of Himself to anyone? 👀..No! Not even the elect. He doesn't and this sovereign and free God can choose to give Himself to whoever He wills(desire). If He chooses to choose and not choose from the same lump where none deserves to be chosen, is He unrighteous? Nope! He has not changed! Reason with me. Or if the creatures He gave free will and fair warning decide to choose against Him to their own death and thereby becoming His willing enemy, do they deserves His justice/wrath or mercy/forgiveness? Now Every person here though unrighteous in ourselves, if we even dared to be righteous would demand revenge out of our derived sense of self worth if it were us betrayed the way God was by man..and we are sinners how much more then does the Righteous One who endures the contradiction of sinners against Himself? Which He from eternity, the God who is and was righteous love before we ever showed up to fall, (in fact, Him being who He is, is how we showed up in the first place)..the all glorious 3 in 1 choose to love deceived and willing sinners by overriding their self destructive corrupt wills, in love and power and sovereignty without violating His righteous wrath which they deserved, but fulfilled His righteous judgement and showed undeserved mercy and love to his enemies and did it by giving Himself for them? And if He did choose for His own reasons to withhold it from some who deserves justice is He wrong. He does no one any wrong for leaving them to their choice they chose it and know it just like all know for God has shown it to them..I knew I wasn't right and held the truth in unrighteousness! But He saved me! I don't believe in double predestination, I believe God is just to choose one guilty sinner if He chooses and not the other. We hold these rights to ourselves, while blind to the terrifying and beautiful fact that God has a freedom of choice as well. It seems we seek to protect too much our own free will which we used to death(literally). He can do whatever He wants! And no one can say to Him "what have you done!?!" And there is no unrighteousness in Him. Sin made us deeply self conscious and self important which was/is our death! For only God is self sustaining no creature is. The things in the word, are things that shed light on one another much like it's author it interprets itself and yet defines and sheds light on everything outside of it. As it is written "the fountain of Life is with thee and in thy light shall we see light. He's Holy! We were made for another not ourselves! If we viewed through God and not self we would see everything clearer. Which is one of the reason God gave His Spirit cause only God knows God and searches the deep things Of God. It's all about Him and it has been from eternity and to eternity He is eternally glad to have it this way, and we will never be truly glad if it's not that way! So He gave us Himself, for what is better than God! He is sovereign and we wouldn't be saved if He wasn't.
I think i heard my pastor say this or maybe it was someboy else i don't know, "education will lead people to you, The revelation God's word will lead people to GOD"
Around the 15 minute mark, to answer Shia linne, yes that atonement was for the nations as well. All through the Torah and prophets, you see that the sojourner/stranger, has the same law, grace, etc. as the natural born Israelites, and is brought into the nation of Israel through 1 of the 12 tribes. It’s the same thing that is happening in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2. Whether by blood or adoption, you are either grafted into the cultivated olive tree which is Israel, or you’re not. Interestingly enough, there were many peoples from many nations, including Egyptians, who left with Israel during the exodus, and they could either choose to be a part of Israel and walk according to God’s instruction, or not, as could the natural born children of the 12 tribes of Israel.
"If we go on to insist that free will is not capable of existing in the presence of predestination, we are committing the same error we have noted in parallel circumstances in light theory. The fact is that both free will and predestination express multidimensional reality. But we in our strictly restricted view of reality cannot appreciate the fact that the two are congruent and not exclusive. To cut out predestination so as to maintain free will is like cutting out the wave-function of light so as to maintain corpuscular theory. To effect such a 'simplification' is to introduce a false picture of reality. Both concepts are complimentary and are a part of reality even though, to our restricted view, they appear to be contradictory." excerpted from "The Paradox of Pain" by A. E. Wilder Smith
I am "Reformed", but *that* is not what is important. What is, however, is this: "Jesus and him crucified", not Jesus "plus" whatever. The umbrella definition is pretty good and yes I agree.
Want to just make a quick point, for anyone who is struggling with TULIP/ 5 point Calvinism. Does the Bible tell us more than once that we were dead in our trespasses and now we're alive in Christ? Can a dead man make a decision or do anything for that matter? Jesus did not save you as a man drowning in a lake. He saved you as one already dead at the bottom of the lake. As Leonard Ravenhill put it: Jesus didn't come to make bad men good. He came to make dead men live.
You guys may not be necessarily "reformed", but I would definitely say that you guys have some of the most biblical based music of this genre in the industry.
Tony of Hazakim, big thumbs up. I've been looking into reformed theology but I believe it has some major flaws and Tony reflecs them very thoughtfully. In the end, I love reformed brothers, but I still believe we can explain things a lil' bit better. No matter, grace & peace to y'all, we really do have the same Spirit and the same purpose.
I wish I was in a discussion like this. One in particular I would say is that if we know by scripture that God has pre-elected men, why do we project God as being RANDOM in choosing outside of His revealed nature which corresponds with our actions? I say that when we keep ALL valid scriptures in view, we see the bigger truth: that God chose BEFORE because He is already AFTER, thus His pre-choosing is fair to His just nature and the preset laws that justly hold us accountable for OUR choices.
I forgot to explain an important point. Lutherans believe in the ministerial use of reason, meaning Scripture holds a higher position in understanding than our depraved reason. We can't trust our fallen reasoning when it goes against Scripture. So, Christ died for all, but not all are saved. My fallen reason can't explain this. God bless you all in what you are doing.
This was a good convo. I knew that Tony didn't consider himself "reformed". So it was interesting to hear why he's not dogmatic about certain views. He chooses to simply clarify some things as a "mystery of God" and I think that's a safe way to go about things that you may not understand from scripture.
I think that the book, "The Doctrines of Grace: Rediscovering the Evangelical Gospel" by James Montgomery Boice and Philip Graham Ryken is a great in-depth look into these ideas. Especially because the T.U.L.I.P. is a little outdated and horribly defined in english, this book uses terms that are more in harmony with english words that we are familiar worth to describe this doctrine.
Good after noon brothers. i also am a believer in Christ and not just a believer in Him, but Christ is my life. Just a quick question. I love shooting video and doing photography as well and i'm always checkin out your videos and i wanted to know, what type of cameras you use? for I am using my talents for the body as well. The Chopping Block is very very important today. To sit down and have a real and precise discussion on His word is a part of is needed today to bring people to Christ. GB
Good discussion brothers! My love and prayers go out for all of you and I pray that God blesses you as you continue representing Him in kingdom work. My experience with Lamp Mode music comes from shai linne (lowercase MC...love it), Timothy Brindle, Stephen the Levite and Hazakim; I haven't listened to any JSON's music yet. I love bumpin all of your cuts in my truck, having the kids at church asking me what I'm listening to. Unfortunately, I only recommend three of the four groups to younger folks...all but shai linne. I love his music but I think some of his lyrics are heavily infused with reformed ideas that can be confusing to someone who doesn't have a good grasp of the word. Not all, just some. I personally do listen and the lyrics are important to me, so when I hear things that give me pause, I go look it up; do some research. I hope you brothers keep up this kind of dialog, as it's important for us to sharpen each other...so we're prepared to give an answer. Blessings!
Grace can NEVER be demanded. If everyone "deserves/gets", or has the ability to possess salvation, then you cant call that grace. The judge gives grace to some, and justice to the rest. No one receives INJUSTICE. The judge is not obligated to let everyone off if he lets one off.
@wspeed37 I'm sorry I meant to say "old" testament not "new" testament in my question, lol. God bless my brethren.... I wonder if reach records would have anything like this to discuss their beliefs like lamp mode has done it would be interesting.
How would you explain "foreknew", "predestined", "called" and who are those who are foreknown to be predestined to the image of His Son? How can foreknown predestination not be irresistible and unconditional? If GOD Who is eternally all-powerful and all-knowing, the GOD that put the heavens and the earth in place and they obeyed, calls you, how can you resist?
Great discussion! Something I would have liked to seen thrown into the mix (because it was brought up several times) is how prooftexting is nearly useless - the passage must be exegeted to find it's true meaning, or you can twist the Bible to say anything you want. "Context, context, context!" - how were the original words used in the language, what does the text say before and after the passage, is this passage quoted elsewhere, does the author say something similar elsewhere?
I disagree. I think we can know exactly how election operates, not because we are smart, but because the Bible clearly reveals it. (Eph 1:4-11, Romans 9, etc) We can have 100% confidence that we know how election works, since the apostles were crystal clear in describing it.
Allen Clark Hi Allen. I know what really helped me was RC Sprouls "Chosen by God" video series. You can view this 6-part series online for free. Just search "Ligonier chosen by God". You won't be disappointed!!
If I had to define reformed theology.........I wouldn’t even talk about tulip(since that was simply a response to arminism) I would define it was the Westminster confession of faith. Because reformed theology encompasses more than the 5 points. But still good conversation from the guys, good job and God bless
Yes. It is a response to Norman Geissler's "Chosen but free" which is an ode to 4 point Calvinism. James White does an exquisite job rebutting it and presenting sound biblical exegesis and historical background on the Doctrines of Grace and reformed soteriology. If you can't afford it, PM me your address and I'll have Amazon send you a copy. Grace and Peace!
Romans 8:29-30 29 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.
I agree with you totally regarding the honesty piece. Much of what Hazakim wanted to discuss, he preferred to do off camera. The question is why? (I think I know the answer, as it should be obvious to the "hearing ear") Isn't this forum they're having suppose to address the tougher questions with the hope of developing a more meaningful dialogue. Hazakim came across to me as disingenuous. Simply my point of view.
Seeing brothers who have disagreements, yet who love each other, is glorifying to Christ and is a beautiful representation of the Gospel.
It is so refreshing to see young urban cats having this convo...
reminds me of a club I was part of in college.
Took the words out of my mouth
I LOVED THIS DISCUSSION!!! The way these guys intelligently and respectfully picked apart the acronym T. U. L. I. P. was beautiful!!! Keep standing on and studying the Word of God to show yourselves approved of God!! Awesome!! ❤️👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🙏🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽
I agree sister. Agree or disagree, they were very intelligent and respectful while breaking this down.
God bless you Hazakim. I'm not reformed, never have been, but was mostly introduced to it through my favorite rappers. Some of the components of TULIP I don't flat out dispute but I definitely do not have a firm scriptural grasp on for or against. What I love is that Hazakim can say I don't get this and not be hateful about it..
or thrown out the room by the others.
Ahhh, this is why I come here, never heard of tulip, I listen to all these artists individually though, now I got more music to check out, and look at Iron sharpen iron, meanwhile in secular rap they are all trying to stab eachother in the back, now this theology and exegesis and discussion is why these cats are on target with the Gospel in their music, speaking sense and not babel like on radio.
I love the love present in a conversation that many have failed to conduct with such depth and respect. God bless you brothers!
I hope the chopping blocks comeback one day. Def still needed.
Thank you for this. I see 4 men who love God's word enough to think as hard and as deep as they can go about it, enough to value consensus and division, because it's that important. And, you put the text above yourself and let it judge your reasoning rather than the other way around. This is love for God and neighbor (each other). Praise God for you! Keep it up!
Great stirring Gospel conversation
Now first and foremost I want to commend you for having this genuine, humble, yet convicted conversation. Sadly I've seen too many parishioners and even elders here in Germany - and also in the US, e.g. Calvary Chapel - having been kicked out of their churches because they hold to Reformed Theology.
So thumbs up for talking as brothers in love about this important topic.
One question that kept coming up in my mind was when Hazakim kept saying that he doesn't want to use extra-biblical words and concepts, yet he used the concept of "prevenient grace" - even though he never named it that way - which cannot be found in the Scriptures.
The other question is if Hazakim then also cannot say that he believes in the Trinity, since that term is extra-biblical, yet the New Testament breaths the doctrine from every page.
Just food for thought to have a consistent theology, because "inconsistency id the sign of a failed argument" - Dr. James White.
Thank you guys from a brother on the other side of the world who prays that you'll keep up the great work in the Lord, for it is not in vain (1Cor 15:58).
SDG.
Wow! These guys are so articulate. How refreshing to hear such young men talk with such spiritual maturity and winsomeness.
I absolutely love your discussions and get so exited by it. I am so happy that I have brothers in Christ all across the world. I sometimes gets lonely in this narrow and straight path of righteousness. But God always leads me to these valleys of peace...
Lord thank you for the elect, and please elect more!
The good Ole days!
Dope dialogue! Very refreshing to see and hear.
Wow amazing to see black Christians with actual theology! I love it, very encouraging!
loved this discussion. look back to it many time. think its important to determine what is mystery vs what God has revealed for us to know in the Scriptures.
So glad and blessed to have found this channel!!!
Hazakim's face this whole time is hilarious!! hahaha
Romans 9:1-33 I love this vid. I would love to sit down and listen and talk with them all.
Dude 1: “Are you a Calvinist or an Arminian?”
Dude 2: “I just believe what the Bible says.”
Dude 1: “Then you are probably a Calvinist”
Reach Records needs to have one of these talks so we can see what their artists think of theology and how they communicate with each other about it.
love Hazakim. Truly chopping it up with the other guys and getting into it.
Amen brothers! A godly example of how we could disagree in certain theological viewpoints (nonessential to salvation) and keep the peace and stand united on primary foundation, the Gospel! Soli Deo Gloria! God bless y'all and may the Lamb receive His Glory!
I love seeing this being talked about and politely discussed. God bless !
Though I consider myself as a monergist (Reformed), I so love my fellow synergist brothers and sisters in Christ. However, I think the problem with the synergists is how do they deal with a Roman Catholic believer on these issues, since that person is kind of on the same page with them regarding the question of salvation. Anyway, I really enjoyed the fellowship in this video.
God bless you, guys!
I think this is such an important point.
Excellent discussion guys. I started my walk with God as a Armanian, believing I could lose my salvation, as well as believing many other errors . Through study and listening to preachers of all sides I would now consider myself an independent fundamental baptist. I am always learning and confirming to the word as the Holy Spirit enlightens me. Right now I would say that I am in the same camp as Hazakim. I am willing to go where the scriptures take me, but I can't understand God.
Encouraging to see brother believers discussing good theology in Christian humility! Praise God for the powerful reality behind those letters in tulip, exhibited in the Scriptures!
I LIKE TONY! TREAD LIGHTLY< THINK IT THROUGH MATCH UP TO THE TOTAL WORD, THAT IS RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH! COOL CONVERSATION GUYS...LOVE THE MUSIC!
Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology. I highly recommend this book. It has been a real help to me in my walk to learn who God is.
Probably the best conversation on this topic I’ve seen
I love how civilized this discussion was.
here in Barcelona spain im going to baptist church (reformed theology ) anda before pentecostal church but no understand the bible.. but now is amanzing.. GOD bless u brothas.
I think the topic of limited atonement or definite atonement is saying, God's blood and Atonement is sufficient for all, but only effective for those that trust in Him. So His blood is sufficient to save the world, but will be only effective for those that put their trust in Christ...which will be the Elect of God.
David Melendez no, limited atonement means salvation is only available for a small percentage of people which means there many hurting and struggling people in sin who have no hope of salvation and cannot call out to Christ. It's pure rubbish
Mathew 22:14 "Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” Then the Pharisees went out and plotted to trap Jesus in His words.…" Not all people are going to Heaven. I think we can both agree to that. There are many hurting, and struggling people in sin with no hope of salvation, and cannot call out to Christ. Actually I was one of them, Psalm 14; Romans 1; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Timothy 2:26. But thats why we as Christians are suppose to preach the Gospel to the whole World as if each person is the elect of God. I do not know who God has pre-chosen, or who He allowed to continue in their sin. I disagree that its rubbish, but we are all entitled to our own perspective.
Hazakim is on point. Don't define yourself by a way of human understanding but take the scriptures for what they say in their entirety. It has to be both, it's God's sovereignty and free will. There are things we will never be understood by us. Lets just do our job, Matt. 28, the Great Commission.
Really good to see you guys talk about this kind of stuff in the love of Christ, bless you guys
I Enjoyed listening to this discussion. I would love to chop it up with them. Thanks for the Upload
I really enjoyed this. Keep them coming
..just lift his name up and follow his ways..things don't have to be complicated. give him the praise he deserves . repent when you make mistakes and stay in the word and prayer..god bless everyone AMEN..
I was thinking the same thing!! This is great!! Loved it!
I completely agree with Hazakim and the points he made. It's best to tread lightly on things we're uncertain about. We're told in scriptures also, not to debate over doubtful things. I think many Calvanist and those who feel they must tag themselves with some unbiblical name, have a voracity for debates and quarrels, which edify nobody. They have taken the simplicity of the Gospel and turned it into some egotistically philosophical dare I say, gnosis-ish type thing, and I didn't mean gnosticism, I meant an obsession with accumulating knowledge but not all of it is neccessary, useful for edification or even truthful and simply leads to quarrels. There are some that I have seen, where it seems as though they esteem an abundance of philosophy over the simplicity of the Gospel. In certain things I find Calvanism to be if not teaching another doctrine, very close to it. But even if you're a peson in disagreement with all of that, calling yourself a Calvanist, or whatever, is carnal. Paul explained the carnality in this. "For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?". 1 Corinthians 3:3-4. Can't a person who believes everything the Bible says and lives it, simply say that they're a disciple of Jesus Christ and that be evident by the fruits that person produces? Not by saying, "Oh, i'm a calvanist". Things like this cause division in the Church and God doesn't want us to behave carnal like "mere men". These guys kept it pretty calm, this isn't how many discussions with calvanist and those who disagree with them go.
I am praising God for you, thank you.
Man i was just ministering this to some young men last night thank you for the confirmation!
Ditto!!
This is great. Iron sharpening iron like a cloud of Bereans. This is the Fathers will for us: to gather and share our obsession over Him and test scripture and theology.
I love that you did this show. Hip hop on theology. I've been a full 5 pointer for a least twelve year's. I still don't like the "L" but I believe it. I can totally understand why people have a problem with reformed theology. That is what study and conversation comes into play. God bless you brothers. To GOD be the Glory.
You know, if out of aaaaallll humanity He graciously saved one, that's a looooot more grace than we can wrap our sinful heads around.
I do not have the right to "not like it". I would even venture to say it's disrespectful to my Creator and God, who has mercy on me, when He does NOT have to, and shouldn't!
Nice conversation! God bless yous 4 yo Faith!
More. We need more of these . Once a month at least.
i love these discussions!
Check out election versus freewill by chuck missler. Awesome sermon and clears everything up. The river flows between two extremes.
Also on the topic of irresistible Grace also called invincible grace which I think the latter is more accurate. It is saying that you may resist at times, but eventually God will have His way over yours. You may fight, you may wrestle, but when He give you that new heart of flesh, and takes away your heart of stone, and puts His Spirit in you, when your eyes are opened, when God does that spiritual miracle work in your heart, you can't help but to repent and trust upon the Lord with the new enabled heart that God has enabled you. AW Pink I think refers to this Invincible Grace in His works.
I love the chop session amongst the brethren very encouraging. I recall in the chop session someone said that there are things in the Bible we would never know until we get to heaven. Is it possible that God would send a prophet like He did in the new testament to unfold those mysteries? But before that question can be answered what are the things that are mysterious? Anyways, this has been truly a blessing to watch and once again very encouraging to the display of love amongst the brethren.....
What's funny about convos like this (which I LOVE, btw) is, no one is willing to acknowledge that these theological points in the discussion were in fact hashed out and settled many years ago at the counsel of Dort. The debate is over. We only need to look at scripture, and if that's not enough for someone, they can look at history.
also All doens't always mean All people. Doug Wilson articulates that point well in his book "Easy Chairs Hard Words"
these talks remind me of first friday fundamentals at epiph... so edifying. love these guys
HE bestows his Grace on whomever he wills,,,,,,,,,,therefore we should share with anyone and everyone who is to say their heart wouldn't take it
I really side more with Hazakim. Alot of what he explained and based on his understanding is really similar to mine. I've been back and forth with this and discussing this with people who hold to reformed theology and or calvinism, and it's like this valley over a hill that I just don't see myself getting over to, it's as if I honestly can't see calvinism as truly biblical....
+Kaylah Erin Turner it isn't...contradicts too much of scripture. Calvinism is where the OSAS false doctrine stems from...limited atonement is not what scripture teaches...man I really don't understand how people come to believing it.
+Still Dre Jesus dies for his sheep. Not all men are his sheep. Read John 10. That's Christs' own argument.
+skalapunk skalapunk, read the whole bible. Jesus died for the world (John 3). But only his sheep will recieve the gift. The gift has been made available to all. When you read and understand the parables of Jesus you will understand; the parable of the wedding is brilliant. As is the parable of the sower and the different soils, as well as the parable of the wheat and tares.
You see the 'invite' to 'the wedding' (being the marriage supper of the lamb when Christ returns) is sent to all, but NOT ALL respond to the invite; some were busy, some refused, and all the poor and the ones who were not initially invited are invited, and they are part of the wedding...they're in the kingdom. Then when one turns up not dressed in wedding garments they're excommunicated from the premises.
Matthew 22:
"2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
You see, again, in the parable of the sower, that sower is Jesus, and he explains that the field in which he sows is 'the world'...now I will take you to Matthew 13 to show you, hold tight:
Matthew 13: "19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
Luke 8: "11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
BUT HOLD ON TIGHT....the wheat and tares wraps this up NICELY:
Matthew 13: 24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds[c] among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.
...37 ...“The ONE WHO SOWS THE GOOD SEED is THE SON OF MAN. 38 The FIELD IS ***THE WORLD***, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
So, when you understand the atonement, alongside the parables, you will understand that Jesus died for and made the gift of salvation available to all, just like he does in the parables; but not all will receive The free gift; the excuses are outlined in the parables. Jesus died and ransomed for all, knowing that some would reject him. The same way he had mercy and grace on the children of Israel when they were spared from the plagues, when he got them to cover their doorposts with the blood of lambs, got them over the red sea...knowing full well most of them would rebel, would not trust or believe and would fall away...but for the sake of the elect he extended grace even to the rebellious and untoward people of Israel.
There are so many points of Calvinism that can be silenced and killed when exegeting scripture alone. If you want a copy of a PDF I'm compiling, I will be breaking down scripture, showing the exact syntax and grammatical break downs, just so it's loud and clear.
I'll take a copy of that PDF. Trevett7@gmail.com is my e-mail. Thanks brother and God bless.
When it is written that Jesus died for the " World" the context was to the Jews who thought salvation was just for them, but the word " World" was explaining to them that Salvation is for the Jew and the Gentile :)
Hey RJ,
Thanks for the message. For this we used two Canons. I think it was a 7D and a T3i.
19:55 The Miracle of Salvation!
I wish it was always like this...
Its truly great seeing reformed theology being embraced by young black men. I have been reformed for many years, I know the teaching. However, I must say, the problem I've found with certain points in the doctrine, mainly the teaching of Predestination, a view I held very strongly for many years. The problem begins with their understanding of Foreknowledge. While all will readily agree that one of the attributes of God omniscience . God knows all things past present future, that's a given or it should be. So when speaking of foreknowledge, the real question is, what does God know and when did he know it. This question was a game changer for me. The question I began to ask, what does to, foreknow,, Mean ?!
29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
If you notice, Predestination follows, Foreknowledge, it does not precede it, but comes after. This is very important, a point I think the reformers misunderstood. The question of predestination foreknowledge really isn't about what God knew in eternities pass, but rather, what he set forth in knowledge of his intent before man. To really understand this, like Paul, who established his entire doctrine of righteousness in the person of Abraham. Its here, in Abraham where the whole idea of election starts. But before I go any further, remember, all the promises of God to Abraham have their fulfillment in Christ, but that's a long way off, actually nearly nineteen hundred years. Paul tells us that since the days of Abraham, faith do to the law was shoot up, ready to be revealed in the last days, the days of Christ, as Paul said, now that faith has come. For Paul, Abraham through faith, being credited for righteousness, through his faith, found the way, a righteousness in God three hundred years before the law, he had found. Thus. Abraham found peace with God, the righteousness of god, the realm the sanctum of God eternal rest. Therefore in Abraham, the way had been established through faith, to all who believe, to all the seed through faith, Jew or Gentile, then after three hundred years, Egypt fell upon them. This tells me, what God foreknew, is not speaking of his eternal omniscience from eternities past, but rather what he himself established in the earth, with Abraham. So fast forwards nineteen hundred years, into the days of Paul, what you will find is God remembering his promises to Abraham throughout covenant history. So what God foreknew, was what He Promised Abraham, almost two thousand years ago, in time in space, in the mist of world history. To prove, that foreknowledge is about God's historical dealings with old testament Abraham, in the new testament text, and not God's eternal omniscience or knowledge from eternities pass. Question, why do we find God constantly remembering his promises to Abraham, for either Isaac or Jacob sake ?! Because he's not looking back into the endless timeless state of eternity, but locally, only back to his historical dealings with Abraham and his faithful promises. It is upon these historical in time in history promises made to Abraham, election or predestination is founded, not in eternities pass, but historically. For what God foreknew ( All his promises and past historical dealings with faith believing Abraham ) that he predestinated elected. While God certainly knows all things from eternities pass, we all affirm his eternal omniscience. Its the incorrect placement of Predestination an improper placement of his foreknowledge, they got wrong. In other words, Gods foreknowledge here is only concerning his historical dealings with the man Abraham. Now, rightly following his dealing with Abraham, election his son's the nations are set forth, being predestined, now calling those things that be not as though they were, calls them forth, through the word of promise, the historical foreknowledge of God. Its limited, only because men believe not, grace fulfilling to those who believe. He calls literally all, but the seed shall be by faith !! To who believe. To place foreknowledge and predestination into the timelessness of eternity as to who gets in, totally destroys any historical personal faith in Abraham. The just shall live by his faith. Otherwise, Abraham was merely programed from the foreknowledge of eternities pass, to believe, he had no actual choice. This is the great problem with reformed faith. I personally argued these position myself for years. that is until I found the flaw. We clearly see personal faith in Abraham, the reformers destroys this by setting foreknowledge into eternity rather then at the feet of historical Abraham, whom God was constantly mindful of for his children sake. This is why God in his hot wrathful anger, stayed his wrathful hands against his people, for the sake of the promises he made in historical Abraham.
Here are the humble rappers we've been waiting for =)
I completely agree with you regarding this statement. Amen & amen!
@josephandtavifa That early church understanding of the gospel and finished work of Christ. that is what i truly want to learn and understand. As I'm getting older and actually searching scripture for my self. the more i'm realizing alot of the things i was "taught" growing up isn't all "biblically" correct. I feel like i'm being moved as Ephesians 4:14 would state but it's just because certain aspects i learned growing up are appear false and all i want is to truly understand True Truth
I just believe what the Word of God Says! The Holy Spirit helps us to divide the Word correctly and gives us leaders to help along the way.
This is a true intellectual discussion.
amen, bro. God doesn't merely know what we're going to do or what we would do... he knows US before the foundation of the world - that's what the Scripture says!
First off, I love all my brothers here, as I've been blessed by each of them. And they all made some really good points, some of which I have struggled with and continue to seek God for a confident stance & deeper grasp on truth, that will truly honor and lead to deeper worship of Him. Within the topic though, reformed or Calvinism (which I'm finding are kind of synonymous) I agree with Json " I believe the text" what I believe is not because of man but because it proves to be biblical and in line with Gods nature (not voiding the mystery) as far as what He has and continues to reveal about Himself in scripture and in all that is made and exists including sin and Satan! I believe some of these things are experiential evidence for the Christian. Even the wrestle with truth THIS SIDE of the fall, and the obstinate nature (T. total depravity) we inherited through sin hold insight that I believe God allowed to show His righteousness. We were dead through trespasses and sins and God made us alive in Christ. As Ephesians 1 exclaims over again "He made us alive and chose us in Christ according to HIS own will. These all prove Gods word true and every man a liar. I think the word interprets itself and I. Terms of using extra biblical terms. Let use trinity for example. Not a biblical word. You won't find the word anywhere yet the truth of it is described from cover to cover God revealing Himself as the eternal 3 in 1. The scriptures themselves though written by God He used weak man as His pen and we see over again them seeking do describe as best they can using human words and analysis to describe the truth God was giving them, which is why we need the Real author (Holy Spirit) to open our understanding of what is really being said. Because the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
How I believe God has given me to understand the I. in T.U.L.I.P. Irresistible grace is through the lens of Gods sovereign decree in calling men in particular, like in the raising of Lazarus from the dead. Which I believe illustrates the sovereign, personal, electing love call of God in calling by name those whom He has Chosen from the grave of their sin and trespasses unto Life (which is Himself). Unconditional election it's undeserved and unearned. It's simple and non complex yet mysterious and deep beyond words, a characteristic that seems to mark all God' works and ways. Staking my claim on what God has revealed which is all to be interpreted by The knowledge of Him. This in no way removes or even dims the mystery of God! For not only what He does is a mystery He Himself is the supreme mystery!
So Dead men need life and unless its given (grace) they remain dead as they are totally powerless to do this for themselves. Gods grace is irresistible in that, when He speaks and calls a person to life, because He can't lie it must happen. It's that simple, do I understand it all nope! But is it true? Yes! And this is based entirely on who He is and not that person. For He's no respecter of persons. Paul in 2 Corinthians 4:6 compared this calling to life to Gods sovereign creative decree when He created in genesis saying "For God who said, " Let light shine out of darkness," has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. The same way His words made all things and there was nothing He needed but Himself to accomplish that, in the same way when He speaks to dead hearts they come alive. So we are new creations in Christ Jesus. Faith comes by hearing and hearing be the word of God we heard His word, He's the author of our faith and the end of it as well.
It's personal in that He calls by name for example as Jesus says in John 10 "His sheep hear His voice and He calls His own by name and leads them out. Saying things like "THEM" denotes separation from. Saying "HIS OWN" denotes personal ownership and separation unto! They are His and they Hear Him and He said in v4 that they know His voice. There's an intimate knowledge eluded to here! He said the opposite of the Pharisees in v26 saying to them "But you don't believe, because you are not among my sheep"..v27 My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me." He knows His sheep He calls them out and they follow Him. Scripture demonstrates this over and over from Abraham to whoever the last person to God will bring to Christ, as God/Christ is preeminent in all things which is the whole point of the Bible and creation all things were made for Him, through Him and to Him.. including who comes to Him and who doesn't (ref John 6:65) and the implications of that is deep and hard but it's true! God has not hidden His motives or works, though they are deep and mysterious and hard to be understood and even accepted! But even this comes by Grace as God is perfect in Himself and is never divided perplexed or deterred and has been resolute from everlasting(the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world). He never changes this tells me that love must be something infinitely wide, longer, higher and deeper than whatever we have seen thus far, and those in Him He is taking us into Himself, Who is Himself Beauty, Joy, Pleasures and our eternal dwelling place, The storehouse of infinite Glory Wisdom and Power and He will last forever and ever with ever increasing experience of His love and delight for the ones who will be with Him forever. God does not have these things in an external way HE IS the omnipotent essence of the very things He gives.
Question.. does He owe the gift of Himself to anyone? 👀..No! Not even the elect. He doesn't and this sovereign and free God can choose to give Himself to whoever He wills(desire). If He chooses to choose and not choose from the same lump where none deserves to be chosen, is He unrighteous? Nope! He has not changed! Reason with me. Or if the creatures He gave free will and fair warning decide to choose against Him to their own death and thereby becoming His willing enemy, do they deserves His justice/wrath or mercy/forgiveness? Now Every person here though unrighteous in ourselves, if we even dared to be righteous would demand revenge out of our derived sense of self worth if it were us betrayed the way God was by man..and we are sinners how much more then does the Righteous One who endures the contradiction of sinners against Himself? Which He from eternity, the God who is and was righteous love before we ever showed up to fall, (in fact, Him being who He is, is how we showed up in the first place)..the all glorious 3 in 1 choose to love deceived and willing sinners by overriding their self destructive corrupt wills, in love and power and sovereignty without violating His righteous wrath which they deserved, but fulfilled His righteous judgement and showed undeserved mercy and love to his enemies and did it by giving Himself for them? And if He did choose for His own reasons to withhold it from some who deserves justice is He wrong. He does no one any wrong for leaving them to their choice they chose it and know it just like all know for God has shown it to them..I knew I wasn't right and held the truth in unrighteousness! But He saved me! I don't believe in double predestination, I believe God is just to choose one guilty sinner if He chooses and not the other. We hold these rights to ourselves, while blind to the terrifying and beautiful fact that God has a freedom of choice as well. It seems we seek to protect too much our own free will which we used to death(literally). He can do whatever He wants! And no one can say to Him "what have you done!?!" And there is no unrighteousness in Him.
Sin made us deeply self conscious and self important which was/is our death! For only God is self sustaining no creature is. The things in the word, are things that shed light on one another much like it's author it interprets itself and yet defines and sheds light on everything outside of it. As it is written "the fountain of Life is with thee and in thy light shall we see light. He's Holy! We were made for another not ourselves! If we viewed through God and not self we would see everything clearer. Which is one of the reason God gave His Spirit cause only God knows God and searches the deep things Of God. It's all about Him and it has been from eternity and to eternity He is eternally glad to have it this way, and we will never be truly glad if it's not that way! So He gave us Himself, for what is better than God! He is sovereign and we wouldn't be saved if He wasn't.
I think i heard my pastor say this or maybe it was someboy else i don't know, "education will lead people to you, The revelation God's word will lead people to GOD"
I love the Chopping Block! Keep 'em coming!
Around the 15 minute mark, to answer Shia linne, yes that atonement was for the nations as well. All through the Torah and prophets, you see that the sojourner/stranger, has the same law, grace, etc. as the natural born Israelites, and is brought into the nation of Israel through 1 of the 12 tribes. It’s the same thing that is happening in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2. Whether by blood or adoption, you are either grafted into the cultivated olive tree which is Israel, or you’re not.
Interestingly enough, there were many peoples from many nations, including Egyptians, who left with Israel during the exodus, and they could either choose to be a part of Israel and walk according to God’s instruction, or not, as could the natural born children of the 12 tribes of Israel.
"If we go on to insist that free will is not capable of existing in the presence of predestination, we are committing the same error we have noted in parallel circumstances in light theory. The fact is that both free will and predestination express multidimensional reality. But we in our strictly restricted view of reality cannot appreciate the fact that the two are congruent and not exclusive. To cut out predestination so as to maintain free will is like cutting out the wave-function of light so as to maintain corpuscular theory. To effect such a 'simplification' is to introduce a false picture of reality. Both concepts are complimentary and are a part of reality even though, to our restricted view, they appear to be contradictory." excerpted from "The Paradox of Pain" by A. E. Wilder Smith
I am "Reformed", but *that* is not what is important. What is, however, is this: "Jesus and him crucified", not Jesus "plus" whatever.
The umbrella definition is pretty good and yes I agree.
Want to just make a quick point, for anyone who is struggling with TULIP/ 5 point Calvinism. Does the Bible tell us more than once that we were dead in our trespasses and now we're alive in Christ? Can a dead man make a decision or do anything for that matter? Jesus did not save you as a man drowning in a lake. He saved you as one already dead at the bottom of the lake. As Leonard Ravenhill put it: Jesus didn't come to make bad men good. He came to make dead men live.
You guys may not be necessarily "reformed", but I would definitely say that you guys have some of the most biblical based music of this genre in the industry.
Tony of Hazakim, big thumbs up. I've been looking into reformed theology but I believe it has some major flaws and Tony reflecs them very thoughtfully. In the end, I love reformed brothers, but I still believe we can explain things a lil' bit better. No matter, grace & peace to y'all, we really do have the same Spirit and the same purpose.
I wish I was in a discussion like this. One in particular I would say is that if we know by scripture that God has pre-elected men, why do we project God as being RANDOM in choosing outside of His revealed nature which corresponds with our actions? I say that when we keep ALL valid scriptures in view, we see the bigger truth: that God chose BEFORE because He is already AFTER, thus His pre-choosing is fair to His just nature and the preset laws that justly hold us accountable for OUR choices.
How off the do you guys get together to Cho it up? I really enjoy seeing/learning from you all. God bless and Godspeed
I totally agree with.
For His Glory!!!
You should make more of these!
I forgot to explain an important point. Lutherans believe in the ministerial use of reason, meaning Scripture holds a higher position in understanding than our depraved reason. We can't trust our fallen reasoning when it goes against Scripture. So, Christ died for all, but not all are saved. My fallen reason can't explain this. God bless you all in what you are doing.
This was a good convo. I knew that Tony didn't consider himself "reformed". So it was interesting to hear why he's not dogmatic about certain views. He chooses to simply clarify some things as a "mystery of God" and I think that's a safe way to go about things that you may not understand from scripture.
I think that the book, "The Doctrines of Grace: Rediscovering the Evangelical Gospel" by James Montgomery Boice and Philip Graham Ryken is a great in-depth look into these ideas. Especially because the T.U.L.I.P. is a little outdated and horribly defined in english, this book uses terms that are more in harmony with english words that we are familiar worth to describe this doctrine.
Good after noon brothers. i also am a believer in Christ and not just a believer in Him, but Christ is my life. Just a quick question. I love shooting video and doing photography as well and i'm always checkin out your videos and i wanted to know, what type of cameras you use? for I am using my talents for the body as well. The Chopping Block is very very important today. To sit down and have a real and precise discussion on His word is a part of is needed today to bring people to Christ. GB
I love Shai man. So kind and calm
Good discussion brothers! My love and prayers go out for all of you and I pray that God blesses you as you continue representing Him in kingdom work. My experience with Lamp Mode music comes from shai linne (lowercase MC...love it), Timothy Brindle, Stephen the Levite and Hazakim; I haven't listened to any JSON's music yet. I love bumpin all of your cuts in my truck, having the kids at church asking me what I'm listening to. Unfortunately, I only recommend three of the four groups to younger folks...all but shai linne. I love his music but I think some of his lyrics are heavily infused with reformed ideas that can be confusing to someone who doesn't have a good grasp of the word. Not all, just some. I personally do listen and the lyrics are important to me, so when I hear things that give me pause, I go look it up; do some research. I hope you brothers keep up this kind of dialog, as it's important for us to sharpen each other...so we're prepared to give an answer. Blessings!
This conversation is the difference between Christian and secular rap lol. Intelligence and sophistication abounds.
Grace can NEVER be demanded. If everyone "deserves/gets", or has the ability to possess salvation, then you cant call that grace. The judge gives grace to some, and justice to the rest. No one receives INJUSTICE. The judge is not obligated to let everyone off if he lets one off.
@wspeed37 I'm sorry I meant to say "old" testament not "new" testament in my question, lol. God bless my brethren.... I wonder if reach records would have anything like this to discuss their beliefs like lamp mode has done it would be interesting.
How would you explain "foreknew", "predestined", "called" and who are those who are foreknown to be predestined to the image of His Son?
How can foreknown predestination not be irresistible and unconditional?
If GOD Who is eternally all-powerful and all-knowing, the GOD that put the heavens and the earth in place and they obeyed, calls you, how can you resist?
As a woman that grew up Reformed this is such an amazing thing to see. Where do I find single men like these. It’s a room of Boaz’s.
This is a fantastic discussion !
I like particular atonement rather than limited atonement
Great discussion! Something I would have liked to seen thrown into the mix (because it was brought up several times) is how prooftexting is nearly useless - the passage must be exegeted to find it's true meaning, or you can twist the Bible to say anything you want. "Context, context, context!" - how were the original words used in the language, what does the text say before and after the passage, is this passage quoted elsewhere, does the author say something similar elsewhere?
awesome work! Thanks for the conversation, keep the up the good work. :0)
good stuff...I think Hazakim made some really good points on how we can't completely understand how the whole election thing operates.
I disagree. I think we can know exactly how election operates, not because we are smart, but because the Bible clearly reveals it. (Eph 1:4-11, Romans 9, etc) We can have 100% confidence that we know how election works, since the apostles were crystal clear in describing it.
I will look into that...thank you Skalapunk
Allen Clark Hi Allen. I know what really helped me was RC Sprouls "Chosen by God" video series. You can view this 6-part series online for free. Just search "Ligonier chosen by God". You won't be disappointed!!
Sweet thank you so much. God bless you!
If I had to define reformed theology.........I wouldn’t even talk about tulip(since that was simply a response to arminism) I would define it was the Westminster confession of faith. Because reformed theology encompasses more than the 5 points. But still good conversation from the guys, good job and God bless
This was a good convo. I knew that Tony didn't consider himself "reformed". So it was interesting to hear why he's not dogmatic about certain views.
This is why I don't sit down and debate theology
It's like going in circles.
God's relationship with anyone is personal, and mysterious!
This is why I love Shai Linne. He's 100% Reformed.
Yes. It is a response to Norman Geissler's "Chosen but free" which is an ode to 4 point Calvinism.
James White does an exquisite job rebutting it and presenting sound biblical exegesis and historical background on the Doctrines of Grace and reformed soteriology.
If you can't afford it, PM me your address and I'll have Amazon send you a copy.
Grace and Peace!
Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.
JSON's look at the camera @ 14:08 was PRICELESS! :-)
I agree with you totally regarding the honesty piece. Much of what Hazakim wanted to discuss, he preferred to do off camera. The question is why? (I think I know the answer, as it should be obvious to the "hearing ear") Isn't this forum they're having suppose to address the tougher questions with the hope of developing a more meaningful dialogue. Hazakim came across to me as disingenuous. Simply my point of view.