Some other things to note for why renetaki is good is Because it scales with all stats since it’s an extra attack (which adds a combo point allowing potential leeway for an eviserate or SnD rotation efficiency). Also you can use it on demand, so during a crusader proc you can gain even more DPS (not considered in the sim btw) by using renetaki + thistle tea during crusader.
Thank you for the analysis. I was wondering if I was to put in effort to get this. As a sword rogue in a, I guess, semi-casual guild its seems not quite worth. Great video!
My only criticism of this video is that it should have been posted when phase4 started. At this point if you don't already have this, you would probably get it with phase5 already starting or close to it, at which point it won't matter anymore.
yeah that's fair. I actually only just started youtube at p4 start, but hopefully next time I'll be able to plan ahead a bit better with the video releases for future phases.
Classic Roguecraft for a sword rogue, what would be the best trinket combination between the four- DFT, BhB, HoJ, and Renataki’s? Really been thinking about this lately because I’m due to receive a DFT somewhat soon.
It depends on the sim settings and such that you're simming with, I'd have to see what total gear/energy settings/buffs etc you're simming with - feel free to pop by the discord and we can have a look.
you can, but once you get full p4 bis with the good bloodfang pieces (eg. bf bracers, chest) it's not possible to fit in both pvp rank 10 + zg 2 set anymore (because both sets required shoulders to fit into bis set properly). I have rank 10 gear too but I couldn't find any combination that worked with zg gear 2 piece as well once I was in full BWL bis. Using other slots to fit in the ranking gear was a dps loss vs the better bwl pieces. Kind of have to drop the rank 10 gear once you're in bis unfortunately.
@@SuperSaglow yea i have DFT + renatakis i mentioned..just wondered if medallion worth rotating in on some fights..blackhands always good too yea, always need crit(plus my guild doesnt WB anymore for raids so)
yes 100%. Bhb/HoJ are very similar in dps (and bhb actually wins for dagger rogues if not crit capped), but Renataki crushes both of them for a dagger rogue.
for orcs you want to stack everything during Blood Fury (so ar bf + thistle + renataki all during blood fury) - it will be tricky to avoid capping energy but that's basically how most orcs do it to maximize dps. Typical order is something like use AR+BF and pop blood fury right after and use all cooldowns/energy gains during that blood fury duration.
What's your opinion on HoJ vs. BhB for sword rogues? I'm assuming HoJ>BhB in most scenarios because of the proc adding to sword spec proc. Any feedback is appreciated good sir and great video as usual =)
So if I have 30+ crit should I be using the +2 hit trinket instead of the +2 crit trinket? I’ve read that once you crit cap, hit becomes the superior stat. Is this true?
You swap in the hit trinket if you are crit capped yes, but you should check your crit cap first (i recommend using the weakaura in our discord called classic char stats that shows crit cap live)
Hey mate thanks for all your great content! I was wondering if you had any plans on releasing a video about the Seal Fate spec. It seems like a lot of people are theorycrafting about it and I bet many people would love to see a comprehensive video about it.
I can make a video, but unfortunately seal fate even reaches on par with combat specs from what we've seen. It gets gradually better over time, but combat stays the top spec.
Does the value ever account the usage of trinket swapping? I.e Start fight - use energy - pop Renatakis for 60 energy- cast finisher/ability - vanish and swap renataki out for BHB or HoJ
Your video says to use renataki's trinket for every fight but I think for Vael specifically you probably want to swap back to Blackhand's Breadth since you get unlimited energy anyways.
Yep exactly. For vael is when you'd consider other trinkets such as venomous or zhm if the fight is quick enough for your guild. Typically the trinket will be on CD for those in quicker guilds too, since everyone will use renataki's on razorgore first.
Ive recently seen alot of chineese top logs use it.. however if I sim it at a 30~ duration its a DPS loss, so I think it becomes a beast if your guild can actually go sub 16~ secs on Vael
@@W4lkst4r I don't think the sim sheet does a good job simming it for a fight like that. Since on vael you are mostly spamming bs and you basically go from auto attacks being the most dmg to backstab being the most damage.
@@ClassicRoguecraft the dps sheet needs a functionality for on use trinkets "calculate only when used in combination with Cooldowns/buffs, and then you can select the combination you want which cd/buff: AR/BF/Thistle/crusader x1/crusader x2 hehe
@@moejahi3d3 he might be using bloodmoon's sim which doesn't sim some stuff as well. Garcia's one was actually tweaked to sim it fairly decently iirc, so at 30 sec in his I get dps increases for certain specs using ZHM.
For a sword rogue, generally would DFT + Renataki’s, HoJ + Renataki’s, or HoJ + DFT be best for most fights? Do you have a video about this yet? Great video as always, thanks Sno!
that's a possibility but you're really squeezing it in there and some fights you want to hold ar/bf for a better timing to match the fight mechanics. So I'd still rather do bs > 1 snd > 2 bs + renataki + 1 bs > 3 pt snd for general use case
@@ClassicRoguecraft Could you elaborate on which fight mechanics? Getting a 5 pt snd off would mean you secure a +25 energy from relentless strikes. Is it better to always try and get a high combo pt snd if the fight length allows?
@@shreckwoo94 so for some fights like chromag, you'd hold ar/bf till after a breathe (unless you're vanish immuning the breathe) or broodlord you'd hold ar/bf till after he does his knockback to ensure you don't pop CDs then get knocked away. Basically trying to avoid getting into a situation where you pop ar/bf but the fight mechanic interrupts your burn time.
I just quit a guild over this trinket. I got all of them encouraged to get it and I could not get a zg spot there where did not have to roll off for my last item vs 2 other guildies whom I've given my extras to over the course of 8 weeks. See those shitters later. Enjoy naxx with heals too. Did you know that quitting your guild can cut off a whole hour off your aq40 clear. From 2hr+ now I'm in a 1hr clear guild.
it depends on the sim settings (and next phase daggers get new bs rank too). Dagger also tends to get inflated vs swords due to vael advantage pushing average dps up. Generally I wouldn't focus on the dps number in daggers vs swords since there's going to be a lot of variance in real raid performance due to positioning and rng. Main thing for sims is focusing on the dps increase when swapping gear in or out, instead of the actual starting number.
Come join us in the Classic Roguecraft Discord and ask Sno questions directly! We're growing fast at over 1.7k members already! - discord.gg/9zEe66T
Some other things to note for why renetaki is good is Because it scales with all stats since it’s an extra attack (which adds a combo point allowing potential leeway for an eviserate or SnD rotation efficiency). Also you can use it on demand, so during a crusader proc you can gain even more DPS (not considered in the sim btw) by using renetaki + thistle tea during crusader.
I'm just glad you posted this AFTER the eight week farm time frame so that there wouldn't be massive competition for Mojo Madness drops.
Right!! I was fortunate to not have any competition getting this. I'm the only rogue out of 5 in my raid group that went for this trinket
Thank you for the analysis. I was wondering if I was to put in effort to get this. As a sword rogue in a, I guess, semi-casual guild its seems not quite worth. Great video!
I love this trinket, I was waiting day 1 to get this trinket.
Just vanish the first breath on chrom to prevent lose any uptime on chrom?
Well that was interesting. Knew it was BIS for pvp for the insane burst damage but didn't think it was that good in pve.I'll give it a shot.
My only criticism of this video is that it should have been posted when phase4 started. At this point if you don't already have this, you would probably get it with phase5 already starting or close to it, at which point it won't matter anymore.
yeah that's fair. I actually only just started youtube at p4 start, but hopefully next time I'll be able to plan ahead a bit better with the video releases for future phases.
Nice video, thanks again! Which trinket am I going to replace with the ZG trinket? HoJ or BB?
BB as swords, HoJ as daggers
@@bjornostberg4017 Thanks!
Yep BhB as swords and HoJ as daggers typically as Bjorn mentioned.
Classic Roguecraft for a sword rogue, what would be the best trinket combination between the four- DFT, BhB, HoJ, and Renataki’s? Really been thinking about this lately because I’m due to receive a DFT somewhat soon.
@@Sumo-san DFT + renatakis for fights below the breakpoint, then above that dft + hoj
How come nightslayer shoulder/hoj sim higher than zg shoulder and trinket? But this is still BIS?
It depends on the sim settings and such that you're simming with, I'd have to see what total gear/energy settings/buffs etc you're simming with - feel free to pop by the discord and we can have a look.
@@ClassicRoguecraft rad, definitely will.
Yo, since I have the chamipon head and shoulder should I go for RENATAKI TRINKET + bracers for the 20AP?
you can, but once you get full p4 bis with the good bloodfang pieces (eg. bf bracers, chest) it's not possible to fit in both pvp rank 10 + zg 2 set anymore (because both sets required shoulders to fit into bis set properly).
I have rank 10 gear too but I couldn't find any combination that worked with zg gear 2 piece as well once I was in full BWL bis. Using other slots to fit in the ranking gear was a dps loss vs the better bwl pieces. Kind of have to drop the rank 10 gear once you're in bis unfortunately.
You would have to be wary on the 2nd example opener with Renataki, since during this time you might not have full sunders on the boss.
Your guild should always have warriors first gcding sunder to instant stack it up right away.
Classic Roguecraft Guess my warriors need to work on that since it normally takes a couple seconds to hit 5 sunders
Loving the trinket! ❤
What about zandalarian hero medallion if I dont have earth strike or Jom but I have DFT and Renatakis
Get blackhands or hoj for your other trinket. Dft if you're fancy.
@@SuperSaglow yea i have DFT + renatakis i mentioned..just wondered if medallion worth rotating in on some fights..blackhands always good too yea, always need crit(plus my guild doesnt WB anymore for raids so)
@@Karl_Drogo55 probably only need 2 trinkets with a cd. 3 minutes isn't that long.
Great video thx for the info! Unrelated question: as a combat dagger rogue, what enchant do you use on your Off-hand weapon? +15 agi or crusader? Thx!
I prefer agi because it's more consistent and less relying on rng to perform well (and 1 less buff slot to worry about)
If you have DFT is it worth using the shoulders and rentakais instead of HoJ? For daggers rogues you only compared it to Bhb
yes 100%. Bhb/HoJ are very similar in dps (and bhb actually wins for dagger rogues if not crit capped), but Renataki crushes both of them for a dagger rogue.
For Orc rogues should we save to pop Renataki's with Blood Fury rather than AR, Blood Fury and Blade Flurry?
for orcs you want to stack everything during Blood Fury (so ar bf + thistle + renataki all during blood fury) - it will be tricky to avoid capping energy but that's basically how most orcs do it to maximize dps.
Typical order is something like use AR+BF and pop blood fury right after and use all cooldowns/energy gains during that blood fury duration.
How do you do the simulations? im struggling finding a rogue dps sim
i use the garcia spreadsheet, it's under the formulas section on classicroguecraft.com
what about using renaki during the first part of chromaggus and swapping while los'ing the first breath?
you can't vanish swap trinkets in classic unfortunately. Bosses in BWL stay in aggro even after vanish
so should i use HOJ or Blackhands Breadth with the zg trinket
HoJ for sword rogues and BhB for dagger rogues typically (assuming you're not crit capped)
What's your opinion on HoJ vs. BhB for sword rogues? I'm assuming HoJ>BhB in most scenarios because of the proc adding to sword spec proc. Any feedback is appreciated good sir and great video as usual =)
Yep typically HoJ is better for sword rogues and BhB better for dagger rogues.
So if I have 30+ crit should I be using the +2 hit trinket instead of the +2 crit trinket? I’ve read that once you crit cap, hit becomes the superior stat. Is this true?
You swap in the hit trinket if you are crit capped yes, but you should check your crit cap first (i recommend using the weakaura in our discord called classic char stats that shows crit cap live)
Classic Roguecraft from what I’ve read the crit cap for rogues is around 30%. Is that accurate?
@@Jerlemi2 crit cap changes based on your hit. Each hit you gain gives you more crit cap.
Hey Sno. You said that Renataki is BIS, but u used DFT+Blackhand's Breadth in your last BWL raid. So, why u didnt use Renataki?
The last week was the first time possible for most rogues to finish their Renatakis (myself included), so we only just got our trinkets now.
Hey mate thanks for all your great content! I was wondering if you had any plans on releasing a video about the Seal Fate spec. It seems like a lot of people are theorycrafting about it and I bet many people would love to see a comprehensive video about it.
I can make a video, but unfortunately seal fate even reaches on par with combat specs from what we've seen. It gets gradually better over time, but combat stays the top spec.
@@ClassicRoguecraftwhat's a Seal Fate spec..?
If I don’t have DFT should I be using BHB or HoJ as my 2nd trinket? Dagger rogue btw
BhB if not crit capped.
Classic Roguecraft x Sno what is crit cap, my rogue crit is 32.3 without BHB and 11.4 hit chance, so should I use BHB or not?
@@rashidalbishri7181 your crit cap changes based on current hit. You can find a weakaura to track crit cap in our discord weakaura channel.
what shoulders were used in clown set?
ZG shoulders up until p5 is out, then there'll be some swapping around of gear due to darkmantle and new gear of course.
I’m thinking of trying BS>SnD>BS,BS>Renataki+BS>SnD>AR>BF>tea
Does the value ever account the usage of trinket swapping? I.e Start fight - use energy - pop Renatakis for 60 energy- cast finisher/ability - vanish and swap renataki out for BHB or HoJ
I would like to know this as well
Your video says to use renataki's trinket for every fight but I think for Vael specifically you probably want to swap back to Blackhand's Breadth since you get unlimited energy anyways.
Yep exactly. For vael is when you'd consider other trinkets such as venomous or zhm if the fight is quick enough for your guild.
Typically the trinket will be on CD for those in quicker guilds too, since everyone will use renataki's on razorgore first.
Classic Roguecraft is Venomous really better than Blackhands or HoJ? My impression was always that it wasn’t worth the dkp. (My other trinket is DFT)
@@yuhao7541 depends if ally or horde. On ally venomous totem is amazing for sub 1 min fights. Horde it's horrible tho.
Holy hell.
Isn't it BIS for any interrupt fight, giving automatic kick energy?
If you use rentaki first, there is only a 10second CD on Hero charm. Hero charm for Vaelstrasz is beast...
Ive recently seen alot of chineese top logs use it.. however if I sim it at a 30~ duration its a DPS loss, so I think it becomes a beast if your guild can actually go sub 16~ secs on Vael
Yep hero charm rocks on vael for quick kill guilds.
@@W4lkst4r I don't think the sim sheet does a good job simming it for a fight like that. Since on vael you are mostly spamming bs and you basically go from auto attacks being the most dmg to backstab being the most damage.
@@ClassicRoguecraft the dps sheet needs a functionality for on use trinkets "calculate only when used in combination with Cooldowns/buffs, and then you can select the combination you want which cd/buff: AR/BF/Thistle/crusader x1/crusader x2 hehe
@@moejahi3d3 he might be using bloodmoon's sim which doesn't sim some stuff as well. Garcia's one was actually tweaked to sim it fairly decently iirc, so at 30 sec in his I get dps increases for certain specs using ZHM.
It seems like they secretly buffed the Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom trinket. It's proccing a lot more than it did before this most recent patch.
I noticed that too... I've been using it in pvp and it procs a good amount. Could just be anecdotal evidence
@@RenonTTV That's possible. I'll know tomorrow night after my raid logs get posted.
@@bartc4525 yoo let us know
This happens when you played too much private server 😂😂
For a sword rogue, generally would DFT + Renataki’s, HoJ + Renataki’s, or HoJ + DFT be best for most fights? Do you have a video about this yet? Great video as always, thanks Sno!
Ty for the great vid. Would it be worth to open up with BS+1pt SnD --> AR+renetaki + 5 pt SnD?
that's a possibility but you're really squeezing it in there and some fights you want to hold ar/bf for a better timing to match the fight mechanics. So I'd still rather do bs > 1 snd > 2 bs + renataki + 1 bs > 3 pt snd for general use case
@@ClassicRoguecraft Could you elaborate on which fight mechanics? Getting a 5 pt snd off would mean you secure a +25 energy from relentless strikes. Is it better to always try and get a high combo pt snd if the fight length allows?
@@shreckwoo94 so for some fights like chromag, you'd hold ar/bf till after a breathe (unless you're vanish immuning the breathe) or broodlord you'd hold ar/bf till after he does his knockback to ensure you don't pop CDs then get knocked away. Basically trying to avoid getting into a situation where you pop ar/bf but the fight mechanic interrupts your burn time.
Yo buddy save the shout outs and promos till the end. I promise you will get better engagement
I just quit a guild over this trinket. I got all of them encouraged to get it and I could not get a zg spot there where did not have to roll off for my last item vs 2 other guildies whom I've given my extras to over the course of 8 weeks. See those shitters later. Enjoy naxx with heals too.
Did you know that quitting your guild can cut off a whole hour off your aq40 clear. From 2hr+ now I'm in a 1hr clear guild.
How come earthstrike isnt better?
earthstrike is better but only after you swap out zg shoulders. Before this zg shoulders 20 atk bonus with renataki is really good.
Cheap shot -> backstab backstab -> kidney shot insead of stunlock ? xD nice vids bro keep it up
i thought daggers sims out higher than swords right now? your sims have swords higher by more than 60 dps
it depends on the sim settings (and next phase daggers get new bs rank too). Dagger also tends to get inflated vs swords due to vael advantage pushing average dps up. Generally I wouldn't focus on the dps number in daggers vs swords since there's going to be a lot of variance in real raid performance due to positioning and rng.
Main thing for sims is focusing on the dps increase when swapping gear in or out, instead of the actual starting number.
as sword rogue use maxed out necklace and trinket for 20 ap
IT PUTS YOUR DEATHRAY ON A 10 SECOND COOLDOWN!!! :(((( Still super op but you can't use deathray in the same stunlock without blinding :(
So it's 4 black lotuses and about 8 weeks waiting time for +24 DPS on (relatively) short fights. Personally, I wouldn't consider that worth my time.
It's 1 Lotus for 3x Mojo pots. So it's ~1.3 Lotus' all up not 4