Dark Elves in The Old World
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
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Murderous:
- Witch elves -> Cant use it
- Blood cauldron -> Cant use it
- Sisters of Slaughter -> Cant use it
- Har Ganeth Executioners -> Cant use it
- Bloodwrack shrine -> Cant use it
- Bloodwrack medusa - Can use it.
Its OBVIOUS that it´s a mistake. For me, the rule applies to every unit, even if they dont have hand weapons.
I feel the need to clarify the Banner Of Har Ganeth - it only works for "combat weapons", so only melee
murderous doesn't even effect the Witch Elves that the community article talking about the Legends factions deliberately played up. Black Guard lost an attack from old Fantasy as well so they are a bit more difficult to use now.
In fairness, 2 Attacks per model is more of a rare thing from elite type units in ToW and they did gain that support attack at least. The Murderous thing is just very odd though. And I personally think they took the HE hatred thing a bit to far myself. Would have been a bit better to even that out a bit more.
Yes i find that like a typo or misalignment in the team. What sense is murderous rule if they are already with two han weapons… I expect that they correct that in a way that is applicable only for hand weapons (one or two). I find that executioners have also the rule and few times they are using them, but witch elves are never gonna too and it makes 0 sense.
Regarding blackguard, if they receive the charge they are still having this 2 attacks. It is making them more defensive with also 4+ armor. But it is true that in an army you are more proactive, leaving a unit 15 point each model waiting to be charged…
@@gulpirri why would charging give them a second attack, if anything they lose attacks because of their support rule.
@@runeh3022 I liked the two attacks on them as a way to make them different to executioners who have the single heavy attack.
@@555tork units with different roles can be good for sure. not sure about their point-cost when measured against the PG's though, but they look decent at least :-)
I have around 300 Black Guard from all editions haha always used them.
They seem solid enough overall a couple little things need a slight change like murderous and some kind of buff to corsairs I know they are legacy but hopefully they at least get a round of "bug" fixes before they are left alone
Worth mentioning Black Guard are full plate to the Executioners heavy armour, so they are more survivable.
Executioners have murderous skill but it ONLY works with handweapons...Come on Testers you didnt even notice this and 2h swords with just AP-1 . Sheesh
Witch Elves aswell, I've been told.
Don't compare Executioners to Swordsmasters (both have "great weapons" that strike at I and Cleaving Blow, so it's a fair comparison), you'll cringe hard...
- Executioners:
+1S
+1 Ld
Veteran
(Hates HE)
- Swordmasters:
+1 WS
+1 I
+1 AP
1 point cheaper(!)
Magical Attacks
MR(-1)
6++ vs non-magical shooting
Rerolls Panic
Drilled 1 ppm cheaper
(Rerolls dangerous tests of 1)
Seriously, Executioners could be given +1 AP (they should both be AP2, Execs being AP1 is so weird...) *and* drop a point (so they'd be the same cost as Swordmasters) and Swordmasters would still be the superior choice by far....
And yeah, the Murderous rule isn't even worth the paper it's written on. It might as well not exist, leaving DE completely without any armyrules except hating high elves...
It's funny because in the article it mentions the murderous rule when talking about witch elves. The rule states that it only works when using 1 hand weapon. If you have 2 hand weapons or any other weapon option, the rule doesn't apply. Which means that witch elves who have 2 hand weapons cannot use the rule, ever. Why would they use them as the example if the rule won't apply to them? I have to believe that the rule is intended to be used for the weapons on the profile, unless you pay for an upgrade. But rules as written say I'm wrong.
@toro132 FALSE! Sword masters are -1s -1Ld +1I +1Ws. Loses Veteran but gains some small buffs.
@@joesomebody1144 I wouldn't call +1 AP, reroll panic, 6++ vs shooting, MR-1 and Magical Attacks "small buffs", especially when they are cheaper to boot.
Dude I'm not about to rebase my entire freakin dark elf army to 25mm bases. My army is large. My night goblin army is even worse. I have 300 goblins not including squigs, spiders, trolls, giants, and giant squigs. Screw that 😢
I like that the knights can be upgraded with full plate. Counter charge would be nice, but oh well.
It kinda feels like GW forgot to give CoKs and CoCs a pts-discount for having Stupidity...
We do have that sweet, sweet first charge though. Guaranteed disruption is pretty amazing. Tricky to use, and will get super screened out at times, but can be game winning when it works. @@toro132
No counter charge makes them almost unusable against other cavalry unfortunately.
As a man with 60 corsairs... i gotta say im feeling pretty silly 😅 they even took away our fleetmaster so we cant join characters to the unit without losing move through cover.
Also the murderous rule is so bad. May literally never get to use it 😅 the rest of the army looks great though. Strong movement and initiative looks like a winning combo
I was thinking about how to use this unit effectively, and I think enchanting them with the spell Battle Lust and/or Daemonic Vessel might be strong. Give them the Banner of Har Gareth for extra armour piercing and you should be shredding.
Murderous needs errata or just a change otherwise the army is basically gimped. None of the units with this rule will be equiped to use it, Just make it rerol 1s to wound with any weapon , why the weird hand weapon restriction ? very strange.
It's the same for any other weapon rule for other faction, like enchanted weapons for chaos. I suppose it gives you a reason to use hand weapons and also avoids wounding on 2+ rerolling 1s with 2 hand weapons, which could be a bit overpower
it just seems off why list on witch elves if they can never use it ? they come with extra weapon already! Compare it to Choppaz rule in orc and gobbo list . That one applies to all weapons other then magical ones. gives reroll 1s to wound and ap1 on the charge. Many orc units and characters will be able to use it so it makes sense.@@dariomartinez5214
Units that use hand weapons like warriors, corsairs, harpies, and doomfire warlocks don’t have it. All the others like executioners, witch elves, cauldrons, and characters all can’t use it, or should never just use hand weapons…
The Tower Master in a Black Guard unit can take up to 50 pts of magical items. So one could give the Tower Master the 35 pt item Black Dragon Egg which would effectively give the Black Guard a one use noxious breath.
Hekarti’s Blessing only gives 1 reroll per game, not per turn. It is nowhere as good as the High Elf version.
Also, sea dragon cloak only effects ranged attacks.
The Goddess of Magic comes up short it seems.
@@toro132 this roster is strong, stop comparing to high elves.
@@toro132 How about you actually have a few games, get a feel for them before crying.
@@toro132 you have strikes first on all your melee characters, high elves dont have that. You hate high elves, they don't rr to hit vs you.
@@LordMacragge31I think all elves, high/wood/dark, have ASF on melee characters.
Thanks for these great overviews of the Legacy armies. Seeing just how fleshed out these are convinced me to give Old World a shot and to build the Dark Elf I always wanted as a kid getting into the hobby 23 years ago.
Subscribed for more Old World content!
I think the strat is to have wide fronts with DE. You can't take a hit whatsoever, so bank on getting in as many first-round attacks as possible in every combat to prevent losses on your end. It'll be interesting.
Feel yourself to be a high elf player in 8th =)
DE have long been made out of wet paper, it's "kill 'em all before they get to strike" or die so, at least 2 wider than whatever you're looking to hit for corner touching if you only have 1 attack per model, otherwise as wide as you can get away with without it being too cumbersome when it comes to maneuvering, charging the right units without dragging in others etc..
Nah MSU and combined arms.. use spears to take the hits and give ground counter charge with elites.. use ranged attacks to wittle stuff down and you have some real heavy hitters with cold ones, chariots and monsters.. Dark riders remain S tier fast cav, they can poke and threaten or work as top tier charge redirectors firing and fleeing.. So many threats..
@@crimsonsun2000 yeah, don't forget witches with 3 attacks with poison, for example, who can strike back even if charged due to 5+1 initiative
@@user-tc9sk4ei9y How could I forget I have around 100 of those bad hair day ladies.. Will add some sisters of slaughter however.. I mean why not, they disrupt ranks on the charge with crazy high inituative..it would be rude to do otherwise.
The attack power of this army is insane….💥
Downside to thrusting spears is although you can fight in two ranks you can't make supporting attacks in fighting rank, so not a straight-up upgrade
Am I reading Sea Dragoon Cloak right? Seems to be only for shooting attacks. Steve interpretation made me believe it for all attacks except magical. Help me understand this please. (Yeah Im a noob)
A model with this special rule improves its armour value by 1 (to a maximum of 2+) against non-magical shooting attacks.
Yes, its only against shooting attacks.
But if the shooting attack is magical, then it doesn't apply.
Thanks guys!!
@toro132 Reserve your judgement since you are wrong as well. The old dragon cloak gave +2 to your armor save, straight up. The one you are talking about is way older. Also, the op said he was a noob, why be so unfriendly?
@@MacMuskelAttack seems like a lot of people are just rather salty and want to pick fights right now it's the old grognard coming out
So the Cauldron of Blood now only affects Witch Elves and Sisters? What about the Executioners or other units? If I have read it correctly, its use seems now very limited compared to previous editions.
Does the assassins killing blow through its poisons work on its ranged weapons (throwing weapons)
no killing blow only affects close combat weapons according to the special rules section of the core rules.
I've not seen your review yet, I thought it would be fun to post a comment prior to any of your opinions influencing mine..
So I've played Dark Elves for 30 years, and this list is an absolute stand out from the old world lists I've read. It has no flaws I can find and some seriously good options.. Seriously wtf were they thinking with that black dragon breath, its so strong.. That 10 point common focus familar allows you to cast out of range of dispels, its so strong.. Combine that with fantastic diversity, great monsters, strong inituative and wonderful special rules, I can see Dark Elves becoming top teir in the old world. As a long term player I'm in awe, I'm working on my Vampires and Greenskins before I do the base conversions for my DE simply as its a vast undertaking, and I'm kinda feeling dirty being a dark elf player right now..
All elites are great.. plate armour for cold ones, good chariots, great firepower..cauldron is very useful - you can run it pulled by shades as they have chariot runner so it can move though them and maintain 360 field of vision..
Nothing bad in the list.. Having access to daemonology is massive, 80 point bolt throwers and Assassins.. This is a bad ass list for this edition.
I’m loving the DE for the old world… the Corsairs I can’t find a job for tho. what are your thoughts on them?
Honestly i only use them in aggressive lists, which is a shame I've got about 60 of the 6th edition metal ones which look very nice indeed, but if you are not playing an pressing the enemy list its a struggle to get value from them. They are missile resistant attacking infantry good against chaff, but witch elves do the same just but better, so i guess any opposition that you don't think the witch elves will survive against (though they can cauldron up ward saves), or if you aren't playing defensively so spears are a waste of roster space, then corsairs are the better option. They make nice theme lists as well. I think they are a nice option and allow for a more offensive play style but they are difficult to home or utilise in a balanced list.
Generally i take spears and xbows as core infantry however.. and i never leave home without harpies and dark riders, the latter are just so elite in their role.
Firing Platforms for chariots: IMO, they should have made this rule include: the riding entities counts as not moving for shooting.
They are sitting/standing in the chariot and not running when shooting from these expensive models.
Oh well
Excellent, been waiting for this one.
A take as a long time Dark Elf player:
I want to preface with saying TOW seems great so far, and overall I can imagine many players looking at their new army entries and feeling nerfed etc, and I don't think DE will preform poorly overall.
That said:
Eternal Hatred - made completely pointless, if your local area doesn't include lots of High Elves it does nothing, and even then just Hatred (High Elf) would've been better than an extra special rule bloating up things.
Murderous - made mostly pointless by only being applicable when using a single hand weapon which nether Witch Elves, Sisters of Slaughter or Executioners would ever want to do, same for all characters except the Sorceresses - which you don't want in combat if you can help it (especially if they only have a Hand Weapon), and the Medusa which.... enough said... - Another special rule that we could've just done without and saved us all some time and effort (but hey, it's such an iconic thing it's in the GW article..)
Cleaving Blow - Weaker Killing Blow that removes the part that takes away all wounds - was this necessary? Did we need to create yet another special rule for people to remember? But they strike at initiative so w/e, I'll take it! ^^
Witch Elves being Close Order and having the Horde special rule is a thing. I haven't really come around to figuring out what this means for the unit, especially with how you no longer can keep them safe from having to Frenzy charge by screening.
Dark Riders - most fast cav has been nerfed, being able to choose between Open Order or Skirmish is nice and reforming costing movement for a turn will either be too annoying or an interesting tactical choice - either way they will be more mobile than most normal units and I can't see anything about cav treating difficult terrain as dangerous so that's nice. No Fire on the March? - Ok. Shoot & Flee and/or Scout as an optional upgrade? - nice... 0-1 unit per 1000 pts that can take said upgrades is very much annoying, if you have more than one unit you'll have to keep track on which has what, it's a minor thing but my initial feelings is that its a needless memory burden during play compared to just having it as an upgrade. Edit: no reserve move option *looks teary eyed at Glade Riders*
Scourgerunners could've been quite something if a character could use the harpoon, but without that I think Ponderous will keep them from seeing any play..
No pegasus for the Dreadlord or Master is a bit sad. Speaking of the Pegasus, being T3 with it will be a bit rough.
Weird they brought back the High Beastmaster but not the Fleetmaster (probably because it has a model in AoS).
That said, I don't know it DE will be strong or not - we should be ok with decent dmg output, above average initative, and good magic.
Some side notes: Loner is weird as a special rule, has a dumb name, and with all the other "thematic" rules being brought back for the sake of it, a thematic rule as to why you can't put your Hag wherever would've been better. (Also, RIP frenzied Executioners)
No Impact Hits on any of the monsters or the Pegasus feels weird - if only because normal Ogres have it.
Dont agree. DE will be more then fine.
@@MountainMiniatures Do you disagree with "I don't think DE will perform poorly overall" or "I don't know if DE will be strong or not - we should be ok"?
Beyond that I'm more or less just listing weird special rules I feel have been made pointless / are weird, and lament some missing options in units / unit functionality =/
Edit: Also, thanks for the video! ^^
umm i think i meant to reply to a different comment. im reading to many comments and i meant to reply to a different one not yours.
people are worried about the dark elves. I am playing them tonight in the live stream. i think they are solid, as a whole... not Corsairs tho.. they suck
@@MountainMiniatures nps nps
Corsairs suck. Agreed. It's sad to see they made repeater pistols mostly useless with no extra melee attack. Even if you move and shoot, chances are you will want full repeater crossbows like Shades because range 12 will mostly be long ranged if you can even find something in range to shoot with them. I was expecting Quick Shot to have no long range penalty but didn't see it in the core rules.
Great review. I didn't like the legacy book but it's fun to read it, at least. I'm sticking with Kings of War anyway. Twilight Kin recently released so my dark elf fix is sated.
I got an DE AoS army, so everything is on round bases… for casual games, what do I need to put on movement trays? All infantry for sure (I got Crossbows, black Guards and Executors)… Cold ones, bigger then 5/unit and do they need to be on a movement tray? War Hydra, Cold one Chariot and Black Dragon, problem with round base?
Yeah. Because of flank/rear charges and ranking up must everyone has to be put on the correct base or tray. BUT. You should be able to use a proxy tray under your black dragon to show its proper place on the table.
No free reform for the dark riders? Oh my hubris! Back in 6th I always brought 3-4 units of these. Now....I dunno...
You can always run them in Skirmish formation. I'm more annoyed at the 0-1 Shoot & Flee per 1000 pts restriction...
I think I have an extra beast master on a manticore (pewter) if you really need one.
Sorceress or a dread lord on black dragon?
Finally!! 😂
First impressions: for 9 pts. a model warriors are better than corsairs (and this makes me sad). Murderous: worst written rule ever, maybe. Sis of slaughter: a bad copy of witches and more expensive, don't see much sense in using them (did love them in wap). In general: I just read dwarves and O&G and they have a tons of special weapons, rules, and options. DE don't. So maybe GW put all the effort in the legacy armies while just doing some copy paste for the others. I hope we we'll get improvements in the future. Oh, and let me add: what an absolute shame has the Medusa's stare become: what am I supposed to do with those S2 attacks?
Finally!
Masters and nobles can't ride Dark Pegasus? Why is noone talking about this? I feel like we need to talk about this. High Elves can mount their lords on their counter part, the Eagle. I guess it could be a typo... But since the legacy stuff will never get an update this edition it sucks. We need to talk about this. Talk about the master pegasus we are missing. Now go, talk about it.
As a long time DE player, it saddens me that pretty much everything has been nerfed since 8th...like literally everything is worse except MAYBE the dragon and the magic items.
yes but that's true across every army and faction, dark elf nerfs are far lesser than pretty much anyone else.. As a DE player for 30 odd years I assure you they are S tier .
DE absolutely needed the nerf stick from 8th, but prettty much everyone got their super hero status taken away from 8th. This brings them more in line with their 7th edition book, which was a good book, but not bonkers.
I think this book is well balanced and will allow you to actually field a variety of armies, instead of being one dimensional.
I'm thinking of rolling with a dragon lord, high sorceress, master on cold one. A block of spearscorsair, a couple units of crossbows and scouting dark riders. Back this up with a big unit of CoK, Black Guard, some harpies for annoyance, and some Shades.
I'd say that's a reasonable position to hold.
In their 7th ed book, however, hydras were arguably their strongest unit. Now hydras have only a 5+ 5+ save instead of a 4+ 4+ :(
Idk, I look at the roster and there are maybe 4 things that I feel are worth their points? For context I've been looking at the Beastmen roster non stop for like 2 weeks, so maybe that's why DE seem underpowered to me at this moment in time?
Idk, maybe some British guy will come over to Canada and dumpster me with DE one day and that'll change my mind, but at first glance, they seem really weaksauce.
@@MoonyPoetnot bonkers if you only played into demons and vampire counts perhaps, otherwise omega overpowered wasnt they? I remember dark elves winning almost everything back in 7th ed.
Broh u dont even read Stupitidy at cold one knights. Yeah. Solid. Except it isnt 😂
These units are just fine, until someone casts Daemonology on them
If I could only figure out how to cast daemonic possession on Sisters of Slaughter or Witch Elves for a real fun time
Thrusting spears and cavalry spears are the only limitations on fight in extra rank. Black guard will always support attack
Thats incorrect. read the Note: A model wielding a dread halberd cannot make a supporting attack during a turn in
which it charged
@@MountainMiniatures oh shiiiiiii you're right. My bad.
Black Guard seems like an anvil unit in an army that can't really do anvils that well
oh man watch the game I just put up. Black guard might be one of my favourite units in the game right now.
Does give ground count as a unit charging you? For the spears +intiative clause
No
No, but iirc a follow-up when you FBIGO counts as a charge, so there the spears would give you +1, but then your opponent also probably gets up to +3 I so...
@@MinscS2 if you FBIGO for 2 inches as a spear elf, and the opponent will pursue you, then you would most likely have highter initiative =)
Gonna be brutally honest, my initial reaction to reading the DE legacy-rules where "These guys feels like a weaker version of HE" - which is apropos I guess.
HE Dragons >> DE Dragons
Swordsmasters >>> Executioners
Phoenix Guard > Black Guard
HE Monsters > DE Monsters (I'll take Phoenixes over Hydras/Kharybdisses any day)
Lileaths Blessing >> Hekatis Blessing (1 reroll per turn vs. 1 reroll per game...)
HE Armyrule > DE Nothing... (At least HE has an armyrule, DE got nothing unless you play vs. HE.)
HE Honours > DE Nothing...
Not saying DE will be unplayable or even weak, it's just my impression.
And this is coming from someone who plays neither army.
To be honest, that was always the case. At least for special infantry, basically no DE players I know owned those back in the day. And HE dragons were always the best in the game
@@user-tc9sk4ei9yYeah I was lowkey interested in starting a DE army now in TOW, but these rules killed that interest quicker than anyone could shout "Malekiths real name ain't Malerion". Guess I'll go check what a new VC-army would cost...
GW gave a frack about DE this time
Why do you think saying you play neither qualifies your statement instead of making it clear you don't actually know how these armies work? Every HE player is quite worried about the match up.
HE have nearly always had fancier rules for their units but fell behind DE, especially straight up, because DE are just more point effiecient at killing stuff.
Like even if your observations about those comparisons were correct [they're not] you're missing out all the things we actually do better.
And the big one is who would ever take a bow if they could just use a repeater crossbow?
@@morerobotwarscontent1476 The DE's will do quite well against the HE's indeed, but comparatively suffer against everyone else. :-/ Bit of a one-trick pony in that sense. Already working on my own DE army book to make the book a bit more playable overall and to help give the DE's a bit more identity than just being the anti-HE faction.
Its funny to see all the conclusion jumpers just flooding negative comments. :D Yes, murderous should probably be erratad, maybe detachments could be added to the city guard, or the sea dragon cloaks buffed a bit (but how? maybe make it cancel out armorbane?), but other than that the army seems great in context of general power levels of the old world.
Comparing them to high elves isnt a thing to do IMO because of hatred in the versus matchup, and in other matchups dark elves are not playing the same way high elves are, so it seems pointless to compare the two.The army is a bit on the expensive side, yes, but its possible to get 3 decent blocks of infantry in along with all the manner of combined arms needed. By the way 100 pt assasins with killingblow (and a handbow? dont need 2nd hand weapon with murderous and killing blow) seem like a fun way to make the opponent miscalculate charging some mandatory spearmen, I just wish I could give him monster slayer too :D
Also is it me, or does the cauldron seem too unrealiable to warrant investing heavily into witches or is it just me?
We will see :)
my main complaint is just murderous appearing to need a rewrite, it's unfortunate but obvious that killing blow isn't going to affect the assassin ranged weapons, but I am tempted by the idea of the manbane poison on lifetaker.
All the complaints about a list GW doesn't want you to use😂😂😂.
I was waiting for the dark elves rules to drop before deciding if i would come back to the game. This just feels like trash and will be staying away from the game
your loss.
Same dude, not happy with this at all. Plus I'd have to rebase the majority of my army wich sucks.
Ils not the same game than V8 ... all armies have serious change
The list sucks. All of the quality of life improvements from 7th and 8th are gone. Turns out basing the dark elves list on the 6th edition army book was not a good call, but hey good thing we're not in tournaments anyway
You probably played a lot of games to know this right ?
@@ehouarnlecossec4552 I played 6E dark elves and they were...not good. This OW list has a lot of echos of that version. So, I can extrapolate
lol de is great.