ok! you’re totally right at the end - abstract games are a hard category, but these are my top 10, all of them are in the ‘abstract strategy’ category on BGG: 1. Remember Our Trip (the best!) 2. Marrakech (so fun! competitive rug salesperson game, love it) 3. Nova Luna (our go-to ‘we’re tired and we just want a fun puzzle’) 4. Arraial (I think a lot of polyomino games would fit, this is our fav simple / most abstract and so fun) 5. Photosynthesis (brilliant, mean, lovely) 6. Nunami (balancing human and nature, really neat design) 7. Hive Pocket 8. Shifting Stones 9. Sudoku Color (sudoku but with marbles of different colours, I love this for a tactile Sunday morning puzzle) 10. Othello (just a classic my stepfather loves so it makes the list!) thanks for a fun list!!
Tzaar and Yinsh are top games for me. Hive is a really great abstract too, and surprisingly deep. Taluva can be brutal and hard fought once you know what you are doing. Babylonia and Tigris & Euphrates inject a little more chance into it, but are still smart and fun abstract area control games. Finally, nestor games have a whole series of truly interesting abstracts too!
I love these videos and that was a great list! I love abstract strategy games. Some of my favourites are Kohaku (so beautiful and well made), Azul SP (my favourite one), Qin (got me more into games), Qwirkle (easy to teach and play), Ingenious (scoring is different than usual), Yinsh (simple but so hard!)
Abstract is one of the hardest game categories to define, and is hence one of the most contentious. Not up for contention is that intro - objectively hilarious.
Awesome list! Though I think Patchwork and YINSH are well worth a mention too! And Tsuro fans should check out Indigo, very similar but better game imho.
Great intro! Nice list. I have Santorini and Azul, both I love. I also just picked up Sagani. Not played yet but falls into the the 'nice to look at' abstract game. I tend to follow the art with abstract games and so it makes me wonder, what would Backgammon be like if it was re-themed? I like it a lot as is, but I wonder...maybe playing as competing armies, trying to get all you men back safely, capturing your opponents men along the way. Now what if they were forest critters instead? Hmmm...
I thought that this was a fine list, even if you are not normally a fan of this genre. My favorites… 1) Santorini 2) WarChest 3) Shobu 4) Onitama 5) Hive 6) The Duke 7) Patchwork 8) Dragon Castle 9) Reef 10) Foundation
To be completely honest, I think you do these top videos long before you played enough games of a specific type. I mean you guys are great at making videos and I enjoy them, but this is not the first time I feel like you don't have enough games of a certain type under your belt to give an elaborate opinion. Still, keep up the great work and enjoy board games!
I am not sure I agree that a number of these are really "abstract" games. Calico, for instance. What is abstract about that? You are a quilter, making a quilt using a tile drafting and tile laying mechanic. Nothing about that is abstract. I am curious though. If these are considered abstract, what exactly is outside of the abstract category?
Calico is just as abstract as Azul or Ubongo or Scarabya, except it has cute cats and buttons and the shapes are quilt pieces. The entire game is just placing pieces to make patterns to score points. If that's not abstract, I'm not sure what is.
@@griffinsroost You are literally playing as a quilter, building a quilt. There is a distinct theme and everything is thematic. If you consider that abstract, then what do you consider non-abstract? Because to me, an abstract game has basically no theme. Yinsh and Quarto are games I would consider abstract. Checkers I would consider abstract as it is discs moving about a board. Meanwhile, chess is not abstract. The pieces all have names, specific moves, and represent different units within a King's court/army. It is a semi-abstract war game. But not truly abstract. To me, abstract would require basically no theme. Even a theme that is "pasted on" would keep it from being abstract imo, unless it is truly pasted on, ie a "themed" set of checkers or something. Or like how there are 8 billion themed Monopoly games (though Monopoly is not an abstract game either).
@@Thagrynor interesting points. I think abstract games are one of those categories of “I know it’s abstract when I see it.” Here is the BGG definition though as some good food for thought: Abstract Strategy games are often (but not always): - theme-less (without storyline) -built on simple and/or straightforward design and mechanics -perfect information games -games that promote one player overtaking their opponent(s) -little to no elements of luck, chance, or random occurrence I think the shallowness of the theme, how thinly it’s pasted on if you will, does have a lot to do with it. If you erase the word quilt from Patchwork, it requires zero modification or explanation. Same thing if you erase the word penguins from Hey that’s my fish, or dragons from Tsuro, or names of pieces from Chess, or the students and masters from Onitama, etc…. Conversely, if I make a version of checkers where the opposing pieces are magicians battling in the astral plane, and when they reach the opponent’s first row they transcend into another dimension and get the magical power of moving in either direction, it’s still an abstract game, just prettier and more thematic. Can do the same thing for tic tac toe, etc… But there does start to be a blurring of the definition the more theme is pasted on and the more rules are added . If Knizia’s Samurai and Through the Dessert are abstract, is Tigris and Euphrates also? How about other area control games like El Grande?
@@Vypper7 Here's the main problem though: Even the "definition" from BGG that you list for Abstract Strategy games has 5 elements that "may" be a part of it (but not always). However, let's look at Calico: 1) Theme-less: Nope. Calico has a theme. Again, you are a quilter making a quilt to attract over the cats. 2) simple mechanics: This I might give, if you define tile drafting and placement as "simple" mechanics. However, there are a number of rules that dictate if you will score/attract cats, get buttons, so while the mechanics of playing the game are simple, I would argue the mechanics of scoring and of the objectives can venture past simple. But being generous with that definition, we will say, sure, simple mechanics. 3) Perfect information: Nope. You don't know what tiles your opponents have. 4) Promote one player overtaking: Nope, much like a Euro, you often don't really know exactly how you are doing relative to others until the end. You might have an idea, but don't truly know. Additionally, you are playing on separate boards and thus the interaction to "over take" is minimal at best. 5) little to no elements of luck, etc: Nope. You are drafting tiles from an offer and discarding/playing tiles from a limited set of similar tiles. Luck is definitely involved in doing well that the tile you need wasn't taken earlier, or discard, or used in a "throw away" manner to fill in some spot where you could have used nearly any tile. So in the case of Calico, even by that definition, you have a soft 1 element of the definition. You also mention Tsuro: Again, it has a theme (you are controlling dragons in the sky to make them avoid crashing into one another, pasted on sort of but still present, as opposed to a game like Yinsh where there is literally no theme, it is literally just shapes on a board you are moving about), the mechanics are simple (again, will give you this, drafting and laying tiles, though in this case, placement definitely matters and there are rules for placement), no perfect information (again, you keep your tiles hidden from your opponents), you can't really "over take" an opponent (as easy as it is to throw down a tile and totally screw over your opponent only to have them do the exact same the next turn means you literally never really know who is "winning" until people start exiting the game) and definitely luck based (which tiles comes out when). Again, Tsuro is basically 1 element of 5. The issue is that people are using abstract to refer to the same thing as an abstraction of something larger, ie "role playing". Which is not the same thing. And again, if you still consider all these games to be "abstract", then what games are NOT abstract games? Please give examples. Because if all these games are abstract games, then the only thing that wouldn't be abstract would be like .... table top rpgs, or Gloomhaven/Mage Knight type games, which are also RPGs. The entire game hobby cannot be whittled down to "abstract games" and "rpgs", imo. Meanwhile, let's take a look at a game I consider abstract: Yinsh. It is theme-less (you are literally moving shapes around to get the better of your opponent), simple mechanics (there aren't many rules to movement and it is a fairly simple win/loss condition, no scoring involved), perfect information (you can see what your opponent is doing, you know what their pieces can do, you can properly strategize what moves they might make based on the current board state, etc), promotes over taking (direct interaction with no surprise mechanics/scoring/goals/etc, so it is definitely an "over take your opponent" kind of game) and no luck (no drafting, no drawing from a bag/deck, no adding stuff, no luck. What you have is what you have). That is a perfect example of an abstract game.
Yeah you are right. All board games are abstract in that way. Even RPGs you could say are abstracted versions of reality. The problem is that humans have a propensity to want to categorize things into little boxes, but real life doesn’t always conform. Like in classifying plants, animals, movies, music, books, etc. So there are games that most people would classify as abstract (like the Gifp games, go, checkers, etc). I think the definition that applies the best to these is the perfect information / no luck one. No tiles or cards being flipped that vary round to round, no luck of the draw. By that, a lot of the games on this list would not qualify. Then there are games like Calico that FEEL abstract, whether because the theme is so thin or because people see tiles, grid boards, or geometrical shapes, and it makes them feel like the game is abstract. So then the group think / consensus is that they are abstract and they end up classified as such on BGG (like a tomato gets classified as a veggie because that’s what most people want it to be, but to a botanist it is a fruit), and people get into arguments about it. Or like the euro vs Ameritrash debate. But games are crossing over more and more and getting harder to categorize. So there are now abstract games with some theme and thematic games with some abstract elements, and people are confused because we need labels and “best of lists”. But fun to discuss and debate nonetheless. Happy gaming !
A bit harsh, don't you think? All of these games are classified as abstract strategy games on BGG. In case you're curious here's the page about abstract strategy games:boardgamegeek.com/boardgamecategory/1009/abstract-strategy
Even if you are one of the purists who defines abstract is “combinatorial abstract” then your statement above is wrong. Onitama, Hey That’s my Fish and Santorini are certainly combinatorial abstracts..no randomness after setup, perfect information. At course, on BGG the category is much broader than that.
The intro is a work of comedic art.
ok! you’re totally right at the end - abstract games are a hard category, but these are my top 10, all of them are in the ‘abstract strategy’ category on BGG:
1. Remember Our Trip (the best!)
2. Marrakech (so fun! competitive rug salesperson game, love it)
3. Nova Luna (our go-to ‘we’re tired and we just want a fun puzzle’)
4. Arraial (I think a lot of polyomino games would fit, this is our fav simple / most abstract and so fun)
5. Photosynthesis (brilliant, mean, lovely)
6. Nunami (balancing human and nature, really neat design)
7. Hive Pocket
8. Shifting Stones
9. Sudoku Color (sudoku but with marbles of different colours, I love this for a tactile Sunday morning puzzle)
10. Othello (just a classic my stepfather loves so it makes the list!)
thanks for a fun list!!
Love the new format. Many thanks for the board game images 💯👏
That was a hilarious intro. Well done, guys.
War Chest and Hive… probably my favorites. Great intro btw!
Tzaar and Yinsh are top games for me. Hive is a really great abstract too, and surprisingly deep. Taluva can be brutal and hard fought once you know what you are doing. Babylonia and Tigris & Euphrates inject a little more chance into it, but are still smart and fun abstract area control games. Finally, nestor games have a whole series of truly interesting abstracts too!
Finaly some love for dragoncastle!!!
Some of my favorite one :
Shobu
Photosynthesis
Hive
Warchest
Battlesheep
I love these videos and that was a great list! I love abstract strategy games. Some of my favourites are Kohaku (so beautiful and well made), Azul SP (my favourite one), Qin (got me more into games), Qwirkle (easy to teach and play), Ingenious (scoring is different than usual), Yinsh (simple but so hard!)
Abstract is one of the hardest game categories to define, and is hence one of the most contentious. Not up for contention is that intro - objectively hilarious.
Awesome list! Though I think Patchwork and YINSH are well worth a mention too! And Tsuro fans should check out Indigo, very similar but better game imho.
Love Hey, That’s my Fish! If only it setup as easy as waving your hand over the tiles😃
Great intro! Nice list. I have Santorini and Azul, both I love. I also just picked up Sagani. Not played yet but falls into the the 'nice to look at' abstract game. I tend to follow the art with abstract games and so it makes me wonder, what would Backgammon be like if it was re-themed? I like it a lot as is, but I wonder...maybe playing as competing armies, trying to get all you men back safely, capturing your opponents men along the way. Now what if they were forest critters instead? Hmmm...
I thought that this was a fine list, even if you are not normally a fan of this genre.
My favorites…
1) Santorini
2) WarChest
3) Shobu
4) Onitama
5) Hive
6) The Duke
7) Patchwork
8) Dragon Castle
9) Reef
10) Foundation
I like Tsuro of the Seas the best, but because of player elimination, I like it best with two players.
To be completely honest, I think you do these top videos long before you played enough games of a specific type. I mean you guys are great at making videos and I enjoy them, but this is not the first time I feel like you don't have enough games of a certain type under your belt to give an elaborate opinion.
Still, keep up the great work and enjoy board games!
Expected Noctiluca in this list
no Yinsh, or any of the Gipf games???
I know, right?
We haven't yet come across any of the Gipf games but they are high on our list to try
?? They're really easy to come across:-)
I've come to the conclusion that Nick is greater than the sum of his parts.
especially when his parts are all scrambled like that
no war chest???
DOME! BOOM! GET WRECKED!
Abysmal.
I am not sure I agree that a number of these are really "abstract" games.
Calico, for instance. What is abstract about that? You are a quilter, making a quilt using a tile drafting and tile laying mechanic. Nothing about that is abstract.
I am curious though. If these are considered abstract, what exactly is outside of the abstract category?
Calico is just as abstract as Azul or Ubongo or Scarabya, except it has cute cats and buttons and the shapes are quilt pieces. The entire game is just placing pieces to make patterns to score points. If that's not abstract, I'm not sure what is.
@@griffinsroost You are literally playing as a quilter, building a quilt. There is a distinct theme and everything is thematic.
If you consider that abstract, then what do you consider non-abstract?
Because to me, an abstract game has basically no theme. Yinsh and Quarto are games I would consider abstract.
Checkers I would consider abstract as it is discs moving about a board. Meanwhile, chess is not abstract. The pieces all have names, specific moves, and represent different units within a King's court/army. It is a semi-abstract war game. But not truly abstract.
To me, abstract would require basically no theme. Even a theme that is "pasted on" would keep it from being abstract imo, unless it is truly pasted on, ie a "themed" set of checkers or something. Or like how there are 8 billion themed Monopoly games (though Monopoly is not an abstract game either).
@@Thagrynor interesting points. I think abstract games are one of those categories of “I know it’s abstract when I see it.” Here is the BGG definition though as some good food for thought:
Abstract Strategy games are often (but not always):
- theme-less (without storyline)
-built on simple and/or straightforward design and mechanics
-perfect information games
-games that promote one player overtaking their opponent(s)
-little to no elements of luck, chance, or random occurrence
I think the shallowness of the theme, how thinly it’s pasted on if you will, does have a lot to do with it. If you erase the word quilt from Patchwork, it requires zero modification or explanation. Same thing if you erase the word penguins from Hey that’s my fish, or dragons from Tsuro, or names of pieces from Chess, or the students and masters from Onitama, etc…. Conversely, if I make a version of checkers where the opposing pieces are magicians battling in the astral plane, and when they reach the opponent’s first row they transcend into another dimension and get the magical power of moving in either direction, it’s still an abstract game, just prettier and more thematic. Can do the same thing for tic tac toe, etc… But there does start to be a blurring of the definition the more theme is pasted on and the more rules are added . If Knizia’s Samurai and Through the Dessert are abstract, is Tigris and Euphrates also? How about other area control games like El Grande?
@@Vypper7 Here's the main problem though:
Even the "definition" from BGG that you list for Abstract Strategy games has 5 elements that "may" be a part of it (but not always). However, let's look at Calico:
1) Theme-less: Nope. Calico has a theme. Again, you are a quilter making a quilt to attract over the cats.
2) simple mechanics: This I might give, if you define tile drafting and placement as "simple" mechanics. However, there are a number of rules that dictate if you will score/attract cats, get buttons, so while the mechanics of playing the game are simple, I would argue the mechanics of scoring and of the objectives can venture past simple. But being generous with that definition, we will say, sure, simple mechanics.
3) Perfect information: Nope. You don't know what tiles your opponents have.
4) Promote one player overtaking: Nope, much like a Euro, you often don't really know exactly how you are doing relative to others until the end. You might have an idea, but don't truly know. Additionally, you are playing on separate boards and thus the interaction to "over take" is minimal at best.
5) little to no elements of luck, etc: Nope. You are drafting tiles from an offer and discarding/playing tiles from a limited set of similar tiles. Luck is definitely involved in doing well that the tile you need wasn't taken earlier, or discard, or used in a "throw away" manner to fill in some spot where you could have used nearly any tile.
So in the case of Calico, even by that definition, you have a soft 1 element of the definition.
You also mention Tsuro:
Again, it has a theme (you are controlling dragons in the sky to make them avoid crashing into one another, pasted on sort of but still present, as opposed to a game like Yinsh where there is literally no theme, it is literally just shapes on a board you are moving about), the mechanics are simple (again, will give you this, drafting and laying tiles, though in this case, placement definitely matters and there are rules for placement), no perfect information (again, you keep your tiles hidden from your opponents), you can't really "over take" an opponent (as easy as it is to throw down a tile and totally screw over your opponent only to have them do the exact same the next turn means you literally never really know who is "winning" until people start exiting the game) and definitely luck based (which tiles comes out when). Again, Tsuro is basically 1 element of 5.
The issue is that people are using abstract to refer to the same thing as an abstraction of something larger, ie "role playing". Which is not the same thing. And again, if you still consider all these games to be "abstract", then what games are NOT abstract games? Please give examples. Because if all these games are abstract games, then the only thing that wouldn't be abstract would be like .... table top rpgs, or Gloomhaven/Mage Knight type games, which are also RPGs. The entire game hobby cannot be whittled down to "abstract games" and "rpgs", imo.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at a game I consider abstract: Yinsh.
It is theme-less (you are literally moving shapes around to get the better of your opponent), simple mechanics (there aren't many rules to movement and it is a fairly simple win/loss condition, no scoring involved), perfect information (you can see what your opponent is doing, you know what their pieces can do, you can properly strategize what moves they might make based on the current board state, etc), promotes over taking (direct interaction with no surprise mechanics/scoring/goals/etc, so it is definitely an "over take your opponent" kind of game) and no luck (no drafting, no drawing from a bag/deck, no adding stuff, no luck. What you have is what you have). That is a perfect example of an abstract game.
Yeah you are right. All board games are abstract in that way. Even RPGs you could say are abstracted versions of reality. The problem is that humans have a propensity to want to categorize things into little boxes, but real life doesn’t always conform. Like in classifying plants, animals, movies, music, books, etc.
So there are games that most people would classify as abstract (like the Gifp games, go, checkers, etc). I think the definition that applies the best to these is the perfect information / no luck one. No tiles or cards being flipped that vary round to round, no luck of the draw. By that, a lot of the games on this list would not qualify. Then there are games like Calico that FEEL abstract, whether because the theme is so thin or because people see tiles, grid boards, or geometrical shapes, and it makes them feel like the game is abstract. So then the group think / consensus is that they are abstract and they end up classified as such on BGG (like a tomato gets classified as a veggie because that’s what most people want it to be, but to a botanist it is a fruit), and people get into arguments about it. Or like the euro vs Ameritrash debate. But games are crossing over more and more and getting harder to categorize. So there are now abstract games with some theme and thematic games with some abstract elements, and people are confused because we need labels and “best of lists”. But fun to discuss and debate nonetheless. Happy gaming !
None of these games are considered abstract.
Ginkgopolis
This video is a contradiction.
Zero of these games are abstract can we hire some people that arent clueless.
A bit harsh, don't you think? All of these games are classified as abstract strategy games on BGG. In case you're curious here's the page about abstract strategy games:boardgamegeek.com/boardgamecategory/1009/abstract-strategy
@Dr. D I think it's natural for descriptions of broad categories to allow some room for variation.
Even if you are one of the purists who defines abstract is “combinatorial abstract” then your statement above is wrong. Onitama, Hey That’s my Fish and Santorini are certainly combinatorial abstracts..no randomness after setup, perfect information. At course, on BGG the category is much broader than that.
Who hurt you?
Well he dropped a nuke like it says in his name