I feel like people who were disappointed in Messiah were people who completely missed the point of Dune originally and just wanted it to be a hero's journey. It's my favorite it the entire series with it's heartbreaking depiction of a Paul trapped under the weight of his power.
Wasn't expecting a hero story, but still didn't like Messiah. It just tries to be deeper than it really is, the dynamics is just awful - very little plot development, the ending is also weak. The first book is not just much better, it's in a different league.
For me, i think it helps knowing that Dune Messiah is more of a chapter that introduces you to the other books than its own story, because while I loved the beginning and ending of the book, the middle feels pretty empty in terms of storytelling, nothing much happens. I loved the philosophical discussions between the characters, but again it doesn't feel like a full book,it feels more like a bunch of missing chapters to Dune or Children of Dune. That being said, I liked the book for what it is and I like that it expands the Dune saga and opens it to so much more.
I was under the impression Frank Herbert wrote Messiah to hammer in the point of Dune for those who didn't get what he was going for. Dune was the cautionary tale and Messiah was the explanation as to why it was a cautionary tale. Lots of bleakness for the supposed hero.
I agree! And how when he sees everything he says to worship life itself. I thought it was very beautiful. Much more optimistic than it seems on the surface.
Dune is not complete without Messiah. One of my favorite stories ever. As short as it was; it added so much depth to the characters, created incredible imagery and had a deeply impactful ending. I was not invested in the series until I read this book and it is still my favorite of the lot.
You have to understand that Paul Atreides' story is a tragedy. _Dune Messiah_ is an enormously evocative novel, and really hope Villeneuve gets to make it as a film.
I think he'll get a green light to make it, and it'll be great. However, audiences that aren't dune fans will hate it and not understand at all. Then, 3-6 will be a tv series and 7-8 will be forgotten to time
Glad to see some Messiah love out there. I've been reading the series for a year and a half now (just finished God Emperor today) and Messiah is still my favourite, by far. Such a great inversion of the Special Boy. The StoneBurner scene is one of the most impactful things I've ever read.
I've been re-reading the first novel and watching and reading studies about the book's messages. And it literally hit me last night that Paul's portrayal as a tyrant and a leader that caused a devastating war was part of Frank Herbert's warning about charismatic leaders and not questioning them. It's a really clever subversion of the hero's journey that we are used too that makes me appreciate Dune Messiah a lot more.
Love your analysis … so true about charismatic leaders from what I found studying history… hence no idol is worthy of worship. Modern day idols could also be companies like Google censorship, Apple, Star Wars, Covid scientists etc.
Cool review, I enjoyed it. I think a lot of people are turned off by Messiah because of the monologues and the abstraction that is displayed, and they feel that it's empty talk to fill pages. Although the book is short in length, the characters are absolutely monumental. I'm particularly sensitive to Hayt, who starts as an empty husk and is on a path to recover his lost identity. I find that his coming back to life after a selfless sacrifice makes for a very compelling story, and makes you want to empathize with him a lot. Paul and Chani's undying love is also very touching; I actually really liked the ending, because although Paul was built up as an anti hero who has the blood of billions on his hands, he leaves the story as a giant who was never corrupted by the pitfalls of power, and kept whoever wanted to usurp the throne in check while staying true to the fremen ideals that let him ascend to the status of emperor. I find that it's hard to attribute bad intentions to the characters; Irulan was a product of her upbringing & she ultimately only did what she did to better her condition. The same can be said about Paul to some extent. Definitely my favorite entry in the series.
I loved Dune Messiah, Alia was my favorite character. But there are important lessons about power, and the weight power puts on your shoulders. I also love the psychedelic aspect of the book. Alia’s spice overdose was actually really relatable if you’ve ever done psychedelics.
I really loved Dune: Messiah. I just wished the ending went on for a little longer. The part of Idaho breaking his programming was great, but I think it should have been longer. I also wished we got to see the execution of the RM and the others. Other than that, this was a great follow-up to DUNE. 8/10
Just finished it today, while tragic i consider the ending being positive, as Duncan says, he sacrificed a lot but leaves a cleaner slate for his children.
In the middle of the book I was struggling with how many plot threads there were but I personally feel that it all came together in the ending, speaking of the ending Paul’s “fate” is amazing with how open it is. I still have yet to read Children or Dune so I do hope Children holds up to the rest
@@ICMovies I did end up reading it actually, I can’t say I liked it very much haha. The first and last 100 pages were the only parts of the novel I enjoyed. I felt like it was all a massive slog
I just finished it. I was totally captivated. I felt such tension, such oppression when reading, that forced me to go to the end of the story. What a powerful story! I'm still in shock. The end is tragic but also very beautiful. Wow, I'm not sure a novel has ever given me such emotions.
I think Dune Messiah is a far better book than Dune -- Paul is more interesting, Alia has room to exist beyond being a figure of novelty, Hayt takes a character that I didn't think much of in the first book and makes him compelling too -- but I'm not sure if it would make quite as good a film a Dune from a spectacle standpoint; it's more cerebral, more talky, which works for me but isn't necessarily as cinematic. Having said that, I hope Denis Villeneuve can one day adapt DM, maybe in a few years, because it seems that lots of Dune "fans" are only fans of the first book, and completely ignore the sequels as if they are by definition inferior and undeserving of attention. Seeing Paul as an older man, jaded and harsh and (eventually) blind, that's something that rarely happens to protagonists, and it'd be awesome.
I also loved those elements you mention from Dune Messiah, in fact I feel like I wouldn't have liked the first Dune book or even the whole saga without Dune Messiah making clear that this isn't just another "hero-worshipping story". I also think that there's an interesting story in Dune Messiah, but the problem for me is that it never gets fleshed out enough, and it only happens behind the curtains until the very end. I would've liked to follow closer the plot-lines like the conspiracy against Paul or how he intended to counter against it, but I hope that, if we get a Dune Messiah movie, those things get more fleshed out; I even think that they would make for a more cinematic and "exciting" story (I don't really care about it, but if it gets done right maybe it can get more people interested on the Dune sequels). But yeah, for me Dune Messiah has its flaws, but I'm glad it exists because the whole series wouldn't be the same without this bridge that allows Frank Herbert to tell a really important message (even to this day) in his next books.
Idk what made Game of Thrones such a successful tv show was its dialogue throughout the first 4 seasons, and the dialogue that happens in dune messiah is amazing
I just couldn’t find Paul’s court to be as interesting as Leto’s court from the first book. Dune Messiah felt like it was only a story about the conspirators and the conspiracy, while Dune felt like a story about an entire planet and its ecology
Absolutely loved messiah. After reading Dune I was worried the second book would not live up to the first, however it left me in awe. A beautiful novel!
All six novels form a symphony . Don't stop until you reach the end of Chapterhouse. One of FH's overall themes is to sensitize you to what you have been "thrown" into as a being in time...to come to awareness of our unconsciously internalized systems.
When I read it first I was doing some study of Greek tragedy plays at school..so saw were lot of parallels..eg Oedipus in a way.. trapped by own destiny..
The book is an excellent epilogue to Dune and a wonderful introduction to Children of Dune. My only complain is that I did not like the lack of inner monologues in this book (only from Muad'dib's perspective almost all the time). I am waiting for the third book which is my favorite for the moment.
Dune Messiah might actually be my favourite of the whole series. I enjoyed the tension and the power play with new characters that felt like a genuine threat and the weirdness of the Bene Tleilax brought something new and strange to the story. Perhaps some of the people who were disappointed were themselves sucked into the power narrative which Herbert is critiquing and didn't want to see their hero brought low? I'd also give a little love to the imaginary pieces of writing from the Dune universe that head up the chapters. Some of the ones in Messiah are particularly good, I think. I once memorised and can still recite (and this is from memory so may be a bit wrong!) "Oh worm of many teeth, cans't thou deny what has no cure? The flesh and breath which lure thee to the ground of all beginnings feed on monsters twisting in a door of fire. Thou has't no robe in all thy attire to cover the intoxications of divinity, or hide the burnings of desire!". Fine writing.
What a great video! Music, voice and the analysis itself. You have a way of saying a lot of important stuff in such a small run time, that it does not even feel rushed. I will check other videos for sure! +1 sub 😀
i just read it recently and really liked it. One moment that was especially interesting for me was when Paul was hanging out during Alia's ceremony, and was moved by it. If anyone should have been immune to the power of ceremony, especially this ceremony, it should have been Paul, but it still had an effect on him. Shows that some things are just part of human nature.
Read Dune for the first time last year. and I loved it. but i tried to read Dune Messiah quickly afterwards and it was too much. But I picked it up again and just finished it and loved it. Left me with such a 'what the heck just happened' feeling. in a good way.
I'm glad to hear this because I did the same and it was a hard right turn. I found myself pushing to listen (doing audiobooks) to power through it vs loving ever moment of the first book. It has some great themes and character arcs, but I feel like I should have taken a break between the books.
Every time I watch a Dune analysis video or something, I spend half the video trying to figure out which character the narrator's talking about since I apparently pronounced almost everything differently in my head! Bijaz I pronounced more like Bye-Yaz, so I was totally confused there. Scytale I pronounced like Sigh-Tall-Aye, and for Irulan I said like Ee-Rue-lan. I've found that this happens with tons of Dune videos. There are infinite pronunciations apparently!
There’s a TH-cam channel dedicated to Dune with whole videos on the right pronunciation of Dune characters/words. He claims to have referenced how Frank Herbert pronounced them in interviews.
Latest news/report from Villenueve is that 'Messiah' is definitely in the works. To paraphrase him, "it will only make sense to make the Paul story complete with 'Messiah'". So we could keep our fingers crossed that WB will green-lit the movie. And it'd be cool if Peter Dinklage were to play Bijaz.
I think Messiah took some convincing for me too. But once I got about half way through my opinion started to change and by the end of it I think it was a great book to finish off the first book. At first I was also disappointed that we didn’t get to see the Jihad but going back I love what Frank Herbert did with it. And I really truly hope Denis Can adapt Messiah into a movie. I’d love to see his take on it
great video! i think you deserve more subs in this channel, keep up the good work. *****spoiler***** i remember that the transition of hayt's mind to duncan idaho was really instant and superficial. Also the dialogue between paul and hayt in that scene was way too unconvincing. *****spoiler***** there are a couple of more minor issues like this in the book which i cannot remember rn. but in overall, i think this book gives a different perspective for readers about dune universe and characters.
The 3 part SIfy mini series CHILDREN OF DUNE covers Dune Messiah in the first part so there's the live action fulfillment you seek my son. I too heard the negative of Messiah going in yet I discovered it to be great and regard it as near the best. Paul I and II seem to have death wishes it's hard to imagine God Emperor surviving 3,500 years taking all the chances he does but I know I suppose by the end he's bored and needs the thrill of danger.
Most people don't like their fiction to be this real and stirring them to think about something that isn't prechewed. It's why Marvel and Star Wars will always be more popular.
Honestly, it's my favorite book in the saga so far. I have a feeling that the people who were disappointed with this book were those who thought Paul was a hero and missing the point of the 1 book about religious leaders and political messiahs. The book is incredible. Great video.
Just finished reading. Very well executed storyline, but damn do I feel a bit bummed out now. I really feel like Matrix Revolutions “borrowed” quite liberally from this book. Neo being blinded but still being able to ‘see’, the fates of Trinity and Neo compared to Chani and Paul... too coincidental
100% agree, finished it today and I keep thinking about how much Revolutions stole from this. More than the original Matrix stole from Ghost in the Shell… Unlike Revolutions thought, I thought Messiah finished in spectacular fashion and Hayt turned out to be an amazing character, loved every page he was in.
@@khimaros I’ve come to appreciate Revolutions more after rewatching many years later. Pacing isn’t great, but considering how rushed and chaotic the shoot apparently was (with lots of pressure and studio interference) I consider it a solid film and enjoy it.
I'd have to agree with your closing statements. While this book isn't as action packed as the first it really does build up the story, while closing loose ends and making you that more pumped for Children of Dune, which feels like starting a whole new story all together while being the same saga.
My bigggest disappointment was that they really only reflect on the destruction caused by the JIhad for less than a chapter. I wish they would have told us what actually happened because I was very unclear how the Jihad occurred and what Paul's involvement was in it. They spend most of novel going along in a seemingly meaningless direction.
Same. When they listed the numbers, I was horrified. Especially about the planets that were “demoralized”. Because that word implies many meanings , and none of them are good.
I thought Dune Messiah was a more satisfying reading experience than the first book. All the introductions are done and the story moves from the start. I found the ending to be very satisfying as well.
The way this book is written to me feels like a conclusion to the first dune book I could see dune Messiah being book 4 of the first dune book I think it be amazing if dune had 4 books but that's just a thought but I think if Frank Herbert done that dune might not be the best selling SciFi book of all time so who knows
I thought Dune Messiah was a great book, not quite what I was expecting. The whole trilogy in fact. I read this as part of The Great Dune Trilogy in one book (as with Dune and Children of Dune). So once this story finished I could go straight into C.O.D if I wanted to. I might be wrong but I can imagine some people not liking this might be that they had to wait in between each book and might’ve not had a chance to go straight into C.O.D to follow up with. I’ve treated Dune Messiah and Children of Dune essentially as one book. Also, it is slower than Dune with a lot more meetings, sitting round tables talking and plotting. But for me this added more to the tension. I’ve only read Dune Messiah once and this was what I got from it first time round. This story kept me on edge with Paul’s character, working out how much of the jihad he wanted to happen and how much of it he couldn’t control and didn’t want to happen, which as the book goes along becomes more clearer. His boasting which I read as him really being sarcastic, his self pity with some scary and shocking comparisons. The story showed how interpretations of him as the messiah and what he wanted for Arrakis was misconstrued by some of his followers who took things into their own hands acting out of their own pain and anger from what they’ve experienced, how they’ve been treated in the past being oppressed for so long. I could sense his struggle of having to live up to expectations. The introduction of the ghola was a very interesting concept to me. Touching on the theme of memories, who’s real, visual association and identity. The fact that Paul knew this was a potential trap but still went along with it I found intriguing also. Stilgar’s role in this book was an interesting one also. Tension with his loyalty to Paul whilst doubts were starting to creep in. The book felt like a long build up to which when the climax came was very epic and was suddenly all go go go which I absolutely loved - SPOILER ALERT E.g from when Hayt gains his memories as Duncan to then being triggered to try and kill Paul. Then the face off with Paul and Scytale with the face dancer giving Paul an ultimatum which Paul refuses because he knows that his heir would be a greater leader than the ones who plotted against him and wanted control. I was totally captivated when Paul still blind but was able to see through Leto’s eyes to defeat Scytale. Wow!! This had a great ending which though was tragic for me had a element of redemption for Paul. Once I finished Dune Messiah I wanted to start Children of Dune straight away. The bit where Paul goes to see Alia being worshipped by her followers had me gripped and on edge. And the scenes of the group planning on taking down Paul I enjoyed reading. SPOILERS FOR MATRIX, STAR WARS When Paul went blind but yet could still see and actually see more than with his physical eyes, I couldn’t help but think that Matrix Revolutions was inspired by this when Neo went physically blind! Also I saw even more things that inspired Star Wars. For a start Paul has twins a boy and girl to which his concubine dies from giving birth to them. They both have special abilities due to their genetic heritage. I plan on reading the trilogy again and I’m sure I’ll get more things from it and may even see certain moments slightly differently. One things for sure the Dune series is not a straight forward story.
If part 2 is profitable I think it will happen. But could end up being the last one because Messiah is not exactly mainstream-friendly - even a lot of Dune fans find it hard going!! Hope they make it though. Would be great to see Charlotte Rampling play Mohaim in this and a grown up Alia, Momoa back as Hayt, would we great to see
@@alastairmcleod3635 Denis said he wants a trilogy and Messiah would be the closer so even if it did keep going he'd be taking a backseat if involved at all
I am really looking forward to Denis Villeneuve directing DUNE: MESSIAH as the third entry in a DUNE trilogy, but I can't help but think the book is too expansive to be adapted into a single movie...I would be happy if he split it into two movies like he did with DUNE!
People keep saying this book is unfilmable. But it is fully possibly to make a movie out of it. The question is if it will make its money back, since it's not exactly an adventurous action film.
I'm expecting Denis Villeneuve's take on this novel for the next movie will differ greatly from the book. Especially since there was no time jump between the dune part 1 and part 2 and the way things were left off. I really can't wait to see it though and I hope he doesn't shy away too much from some of the weirdness of the novel.
I literally have the book in my hand and I'm about to read it for the first time. I have a couple pages of the first left to go, but it's my second read of the first book. I was getting ready for the movie to come out in December, but since it got pushed I'm just going to read the entire series. At least the books that Frank Herbert wrote.
@@michaelproano1449 I'm at the exact same place now and I just got Heretics from Amazon. I blew through Messiah, Children, and God Emperor over the last month.
Thank you for your review of both Dune and Dune Messiah. Great job! While I ranked Dune Messiah number four in the six novel series, I really, really enjoyed it. I place it not too far away from Dune, Children of Dune, and Heretics of Dune. God Emperor of Dune was a bit too inaccessible to me (but still enjoyed it). Chapter House Dune is my least favorite, but still interesting. The Sci-Fi channel's 2003 Children of Dune (incorporates both Dune Messiah and Children of Dune) was much better than their attempt at Dune in 2000. However, and like you, I wished they had expanded upon some elements, plus the series had its own problems. But they also did a few thinks wonderfully. One scene in particular had me cheering. It was the execution of Paul's enemies and doing it "God Father" style ... i.e., Michael Corleone at a baptism repeating words from the priest, while his men killed his enemies, and Paul in a trance internally watching Chani giving birth, while Alia, Gurney and a few of his men were killing his enemies (and it being accompanied by luscious music!). Even though the novel didn't kill Paul's enemies one after another on the same day, I loved the impact it had in the film.
I too was told Messiah was a weak point. I enjoyed it more than Children of Dune on first read. Currently on heretics of Dune and loving it. So much that after chapterhouse I'm going back and doing it all again!
I loved Dune Messiah. It was a good albeit short book compared to Dune! In all honesty it felt like a prologue to Children of Dune! Felt like it set up the scenes and plot of the sequel! Paul is a very sympathetic figure! Becoming the Emperor had advantages and major draw backs! And his legend tended to preceed him! He had problems with all the sycophants who followed him and wrote, rewrote and or embellished his life and achievements! Sage warning that seeing the future makes it hard to live spontaneously! The risks of prescient vision!
I really think a lot of people hate or more accurately disappoint in Paul in unjustified way .like the man have made a lot of mistakes but he always wanted the best for the people he have grown to love the fremaa. in the end he couldn’t betray them and became the shatian (literally mean the devil ).that he was suppose to be but please don’t misunderstand that as him been coward or someone who intentionally moved that great price to his son .I really think he had paied the price of becoming one without even the ability to be with his lover. something which he could do if he had followed the golden path himself so he tried what he always tried .to chose the middle ground between the chooses not fully abandoning the golden path and it the same time not to betray his people. to became the god emperor without actually becoming A god in flesh is to create an imperial ruled through religion a religion that make him the god and the ruler even after his death . That is the middle ground that is the path he wanted to create . And sadly enough he failed largely because of the corrpation that every society have .
I read almost the entire book on a flight back from ATL this weekend. I texted my friend who introduced the series to me, and I told him I like this better than Dune
Kinduv spoilers: Paul didn't lose everything. His prophetic visions showed many paths into the future and which steps (or decisions) he could take to help humamity the most. Some of the decisions he had to make hurt him profoundly. But he made the decisions because the alternatives were even worse. The other thing that Paul revealed (in Messiah, or perhaps the end of Dune?) was that he was a "seed" for something to grow. It isnt until The God Emperor of Dune (fourth book) that we learn what he alluded to.
I enjoyed Dune Messiah too, but I couldn't help feeling that though the lack of agency of the characters was no doubt an intentional move for Herbert, I thought characters like Alia and Chani really just served as counterpoints to Paul rather than their own people. Paul, Hayt and I guess Scytale were really the only characters that *did* anything for the story. And I would've loved to see more Lady Jessica! Thought she would've really added to the dynamic, and I'm hoping she's brought back into the fold for the third book
@James Herndon yeah I agree with you, I definitely think it was a deliberate choice to demonstrate the nature of prescience and the illusion of choice. I just would've preferred a greater compromise between that philosophy and more of a sense of immediate investment in the characters and their choices. And as I mentioned before, I think the women in dune messiah suffered from a lack of agency much more than the men, which was obviously common for fiction from the era. I doubt Herbert meant to de-prioritise his female characters, since he still managed to give them depth and nuance. They just didn't really *do* much for the story, unlike the men.
@James Herndon haha well yeah totally, just hampered my enjoyment of the book here and now in 2020, the quality was still great for the time. But yeah I've heard that about the later books. I actually stopped reading after children of dune because I just wasn't digging it anymore. Might pick up the series again one day though. Absolutely love the original
i loved this book because its short and also covers pauls heavy burden. the only thing i didn’t like is 9 year old alia confessing her love to adult duncan idaho. technically shes older but still she’s 9 LOL
Not saying this is any better but she has lived countless adult lives, including her own parents, swimming in her mind. She is technically ancient. It might be more creepy knowing the Baron is in there
You should really try getting n check out the dune encyclopaedia it's rich n grand n so much detail from all eras of dune n there sections about Paul's Jihad n Paul's empire as well as Leto 2 empire n all the different Duncan Idaho's U check it out also has forward by Frank Herbert
I actually enjoyed the read of Messiah more than I did of dune. Naturally, though I'm sure Dune is probably a better book. but man this shit was fire. cant wait to read children.
God emperor of Dune is very good. Brian Herbert’s aren’t as good, but they are okay if you don’t compare. The ideas of the first make it my favorite and the best re read. I’ve read the first dune many times. The idea of. A Chair dog is one of my favorite sci fi ideas. I want one.
I was 15 when i read Dune and loved it. I was hyped to read Dune Messiah a year later and continue the saga but found it such a drag. As i read through and turned those pages I kept hoping, here is probably where it's going to pick up but it never really did for me. So i didn't enjoy it. But it was nonetheless an important part of the story and build up for Children of Dune which i read a few years after and did enjoy. That being said, I will be re-reading the saga and plan to continue through them all the way to chapter house. I'm actually looking forward to giving Dune Messiah another chance with a fresh perspective.
I think I messed up reading the book because I had a hard time getting through the first half and so I read it really slowly and then when it picked up in the second half I read it in one night so I had a hard time connecting the dots from the first half with the second half so I don't think I was able to appreciate the story in its entirety as much as I could
I don't like the idea of those cash-in expanded book series. Frank Herbert was a genius and deliberately started and ended each story at those certain points.
It's not a bad book, and have no gripe with fast forwarding 15 years to show that defeating the Emperor and Harkonens did not lead to happy endings for everyone. The theme of Paul trying to escape from vision as to the consequences of victory was a theme of the first book and Messiah was a development of that - it is all about him having prescience but not liking what he saw and trying to escape it (for both himself and the world around him). That is all fine. The world building and the characters are good too. My main gripe with the second book is that, all the way up to the (very captivating) stone burner scene, very little action happens - too much talking and too little action. If the first book was not so absolutely riveting in terms of the constant grand scale action after brief scene setting at the beginning, maybe that would not have been such a contrast, but I could not put down the first book, whereas I found myself trying to hurry along in Messiah to get to something actually happening, rather than opining about priescience, philosophy and plots.
I really really felt for Irulan. People villainize her, but she got dealt one of the worst hands. Paul humiliated her constantly and used her. And she had a conscience and had no idea that the contraceptives would end up killing Chani. She showed growth by leaving the sisterhood while Jessica stayed in it. She was a hostage and honestly if I were her I would have no qualms about killing Chani as Irulan was supposed to bear the heir by the standard set in the imperium. Paul is very big on rules for thee and not for me. He’s a hypocrite and a horrible emperor . Paul gives her a very very begrudging respect but that’s about it. Even after the plot to bring him down, the first thing she does is go to Paul (you literally know because author makes it a huge point to describe she’s wearing the same outfit from the conspiracy meeting )and just by the way her movements were described you can tell she’s trying her hardest save him and his concubine. Paul is too arrogant to listen. I really liked messiah because it seems like people didn’t get that Paul is NOT a hero. And his actions disgusted me. He didn’t give the so-called love of his life, the truth or the right to choose. He decided HE knew Best. I hate it when people say that Paul is some tragic hero. While his story is tragic, so is everyone else’s and it’s because of Paul. He wasn’t even there in his so called “beloved” final moments. I love the way Herbert wrote the books. The only time Paul showed any type of redemption was in children when he was the preacher and even then it was half ass but it was the only time he tried. I know someone will probably cuss me out in the comments, but the fact that an author made me hate a protagonist so much is amazing. But Paul cared for Paul. Full stop. (All of this is imo, I’m not going to fight on here)
While Dune Messiah is great, I would wholeheartedly support God Emperor as the best in the series. God Emperor is Messiah on steroids, one of the best showcases of tyranny in literature. Unbiased and raw, with the underlying philosophy it speaks of absolutism, parenting and sentient beings in general.Messiah had the same goal, delivered beautifully, but it seems like Herbert was refraining himself.
Spot on. Children of Dune did a great job setting up God Emperor and doing a far better job than DM in "completing the Atreides arc". D1 -> Paul's Rise D2 -> Paul's Downfall D3 -> Leto II rise D4 -> Leto II downfall and culmination of his golden path. Unlike Paul, his downfall actually granted humanity a second chance.
I feel like people who were disappointed in Messiah were people who completely missed the point of Dune originally and just wanted it to be a hero's journey. It's my favorite it the entire series with it's heartbreaking depiction of a Paul trapped under the weight of his power.
Loved the book. He's probably the only sci fi character I've read that had a tragic ending. Also I actually ended up reading this book last.
Wasn't expecting a hero story, but still didn't like Messiah. It just tries to be deeper than it really is, the dynamics is just awful - very little plot development, the ending is also weak. The first book is not just much better, it's in a different league.
I see so much of Faust in Messiah, throughout the whole novel Paul pays the price for the bargain of his powers
Also there's the blindness but eh
For me, i think it helps knowing that Dune Messiah is more of a chapter that introduces you to the other books than its own story, because while I loved the beginning and ending of the book, the middle feels pretty empty in terms of storytelling, nothing much happens. I loved the philosophical discussions between the characters, but again it doesn't feel like a full book,it feels more like a bunch of missing chapters to Dune or Children of Dune.
That being said, I liked the book for what it is and I like that it expands the Dune saga and opens it to so much more.
I don't think the execution lived up to the concept
Just finished the book, my favorite character was Edric, I found his abilities and the fact he lives in a spice tube so interesting.
I was under the impression Frank Herbert wrote Messiah to hammer in the point of Dune for those who didn't get what he was going for. Dune was the cautionary tale and Messiah was the explanation as to why it was a cautionary tale. Lots of bleakness for the supposed hero.
I loved the ending of dune messiah so much. It’s so well written and bittersweet. The only way for Paul to be free of his mind was to lose everything.
I agree! And how when he sees everything he says to worship life itself. I thought it was very beautiful. Much more optimistic than it seems on the surface.
Dune is not complete without Messiah. One of my favorite stories ever. As short as it was; it added so much depth to the characters, created incredible imagery and had a deeply impactful ending. I was not invested in the series until I read this book and it is still my favorite of the lot.
The scene with the eyes of his son … broke me. So so so beautiful.
Such a cool idea!
You have to understand that Paul Atreides' story is a tragedy. _Dune Messiah_ is an enormously evocative novel, and really hope Villeneuve gets to make it as a film.
I think he'll get a green light to make it, and it'll be great. However, audiences that aren't dune fans will hate it and not understand at all. Then, 3-6 will be a tv series and 7-8 will be forgotten to time
I found it very poignant. He defeats all assassination attempts and plots against him, but at what cost...
Glad to see some Messiah love out there.
I've been reading the series for a year and a half now (just finished God Emperor today) and Messiah is still my favourite, by far.
Such a great inversion of the Special Boy. The StoneBurner scene is one of the most impactful things I've ever read.
I've been re-reading the first novel and watching and reading studies about the book's messages. And it literally hit me last night that Paul's portrayal as a tyrant and a leader that caused a devastating war was part of Frank Herbert's warning about charismatic leaders and not questioning them. It's a really clever subversion of the hero's journey that we are used too that makes me appreciate Dune Messiah a lot more.
Love your analysis … so true about charismatic leaders from what I found studying history… hence no idol is worthy of worship. Modern day idols could also be companies like Google censorship, Apple, Star Wars, Covid scientists etc.
What you seem to be forgetting is it’s implied throughout that the jihad is the least bad possible future Paul could see.
For me, Dune Messiah was a perfect sequel to a grandiose adventure that needed grounding in its own reality.
Right now i think my fav us still the first book but messiah has my favorite ending. Its so fitting its almost beyond sad
Cool review, I enjoyed it.
I think a lot of people are turned off by Messiah because of the monologues and the abstraction that is displayed, and they feel that it's empty talk to fill pages.
Although the book is short in length, the characters are absolutely monumental. I'm particularly sensitive to Hayt, who starts as an empty husk and is on a path to recover his lost identity. I find that his coming back to life after a selfless sacrifice makes for a very compelling story, and makes you want to empathize with him a lot.
Paul and Chani's undying love is also very touching; I actually really liked the ending, because although Paul was built up as an anti hero who has the blood of billions on his hands, he leaves the story as a giant who was never corrupted by the pitfalls of power, and kept whoever wanted to usurp the throne in check while staying true to the fremen ideals that let him ascend to the status of emperor.
I find that it's hard to attribute bad intentions to the characters; Irulan was a product of her upbringing & she ultimately only did what she did to better her condition. The same can be said about Paul to some extent.
Definitely my favorite entry in the series.
Hezel That was a great analysis. You should make Dune videos! Thanks for watching!
I loved Dune Messiah, Alia was my favorite character. But there are important lessons about power, and the weight power puts on your shoulders. I also love the psychedelic aspect of the book. Alia’s spice overdose was actually really relatable if you’ve ever done psychedelics.
I loved her in the first book. She doesn't give a damn. lol. I haven't read the second book yet, but I just got in the mail.
I really loved Dune: Messiah. I just wished the ending went on for a little longer. The part of Idaho breaking his programming was great, but I think it should have been longer. I also wished we got to see the execution of the RM and the others. Other than that, this was a great follow-up to DUNE. 8/10
Just finished it today, while tragic i consider the ending being positive, as Duncan says, he sacrificed a lot but leaves a cleaner slate for his children.
In the middle of the book I was struggling with how many plot threads there were but I personally feel that it all came together in the ending, speaking of the ending Paul’s “fate” is amazing with how open it is. I still have yet to read Children or Dune so I do hope Children holds up to the rest
If you’ve still yet to read the third book by now, you won’t be disappointed. If you have….what did you think?
@@ICMovies I did end up reading it actually, I can’t say I liked it very much haha. The first and last 100 pages were the only parts of the novel I enjoyed. I felt like it was all a massive slog
I remember reading it on a plane trip and really enjoying it. Fond memories of those times
Great video. I just finished reading it a couple weeks ago and it's grown on me since then. I thought the ending was actually beautiful
I just finished it. I was totally captivated. I felt such tension, such oppression when reading, that forced me to go to the end of the story. What a powerful story! I'm still in shock. The end is tragic but also very beautiful. Wow, I'm not sure a novel has ever given me such emotions.
i don’t understand the hate this book gets, the metaphors and the ending is honestly so well written
I think Dune Messiah is a far better book than Dune -- Paul is more interesting, Alia has room to exist beyond being a figure of novelty, Hayt takes a character that I didn't think much of in the first book and makes him compelling too -- but I'm not sure if it would make quite as good a film a Dune from a spectacle standpoint; it's more cerebral, more talky, which works for me but isn't necessarily as cinematic. Having said that, I hope Denis Villeneuve can one day adapt DM, maybe in a few years, because it seems that lots of Dune "fans" are only fans of the first book, and completely ignore the sequels as if they are by definition inferior and undeserving of attention. Seeing Paul as an older man, jaded and harsh and (eventually) blind, that's something that rarely happens to protagonists, and it'd be awesome.
I also loved those elements you mention from Dune Messiah, in fact I feel like I wouldn't have liked the first Dune book or even the whole saga without Dune Messiah making clear that this isn't just another "hero-worshipping story".
I also think that there's an interesting story in Dune Messiah, but the problem for me is that it never gets fleshed out enough, and it only happens behind the curtains until the very end. I would've liked to follow closer the plot-lines like the conspiracy against Paul or how he intended to counter against it, but I hope that, if we get a Dune Messiah movie, those things get more fleshed out; I even think that they would make for a more cinematic and "exciting" story (I don't really care about it, but if it gets done right maybe it can get more people interested on the Dune sequels).
But yeah, for me Dune Messiah has its flaws, but I'm glad it exists because the whole series wouldn't be the same without this bridge that allows Frank Herbert to tell a really important message (even to this day) in his next books.
Idk what made Game of Thrones such a successful tv show was its dialogue throughout the first 4 seasons, and the dialogue that happens in dune messiah is amazing
I just couldn’t find Paul’s court to be as interesting as Leto’s court from the first book. Dune Messiah felt like it was only a story about the conspirators and the conspiracy, while Dune felt like a story about an entire planet and its ecology
Absolutely loved messiah. After reading Dune I was worried the second book would not live up to the first, however it left me in awe. A beautiful novel!
All six novels form a symphony . Don't stop until you reach the end of Chapterhouse. One of FH's overall themes is to sensitize you to what you have been "thrown" into as a being in time...to come to awareness of our unconsciously internalized systems.
When I read it first I was doing some study of Greek tragedy plays at school..so saw were lot of parallels..eg Oedipus in a way.. trapped by own destiny..
The book is an excellent epilogue to Dune and a wonderful introduction to Children of Dune.
My only complain is that I did not like the lack of inner monologues in this book (only from Muad'dib's perspective almost all the time).
I am waiting for the third book which is my favorite for the moment.
Dune Messiah might actually be my favourite of the whole series. I enjoyed the tension and the power play with new characters that felt like a genuine threat and the weirdness of the Bene Tleilax brought something new and strange to the story. Perhaps some of the people who were disappointed were themselves sucked into the power narrative which Herbert is critiquing and didn't want to see their hero brought low? I'd also give a little love to the imaginary pieces of writing from the Dune universe that head up the chapters. Some of the ones in Messiah are particularly good, I think. I once memorised and can still recite (and this is from memory so may be a bit wrong!) "Oh worm of many teeth, cans't thou deny what has no cure? The flesh and breath which lure thee to the ground of all beginnings feed on monsters twisting in a door of fire. Thou has't no robe in all thy attire to cover the intoxications of divinity, or hide the burnings of desire!". Fine writing.
great video dude! I just finished Dune Messiah, and your video helped me better understand what i just read.
What a great video! Music, voice and the analysis itself. You have a way of saying a lot of important stuff in such a small run time, that it does not even feel rushed. I will check other videos for sure! +1 sub 😀
Thanks for watching! Glad you dig the music too. I wrote it while reading the first three books.
@@RonReviews2 no waaaay. I wanted to look for it and it sounded like some classical piece 😱
I love this book as well.
I feel the same way as you. Ive become kind of jaded to franchises and series but since I started reading dune messiah I am hooked
That’s crazy, that would explain Paul’s vision in the tent with his mother when he saw an army killing in his father’s name.
They’ve pretty much announced that Dune Messiah the movie is on its way!!
I know. Can’t wait!
You have the best book cover for Messiah on there as well
i just read it recently and really liked it. One moment that was especially interesting for me was when Paul was hanging out during Alia's ceremony, and was moved by it. If anyone should have been immune to the power of ceremony, especially this ceremony, it should have been Paul, but it still had an effect on him. Shows that some things are just part of human nature.
Paul's potentially the most devastating fictional character ever. It he'd just died at 15, billions and billions of lives saved.
Buddy they’re making this adaptation intro a movie I can’t wait
I know! I think this book in particular will work really well as a movie. Gonna be awesome.
Excellent video, great presentation!
Thanks for watching!
Great review, very well made
Thanks for watching!
Read Dune for the first time last year. and I loved it. but i tried to read Dune Messiah quickly afterwards and it was too much. But I picked it up again and just finished it and loved it. Left me with such a 'what the heck just happened' feeling. in a good way.
I'm glad to hear this because I did the same and it was a hard right turn. I found myself pushing to listen (doing audiobooks) to power through it vs loving ever moment of the first book. It has some great themes and character arcs, but I feel like I should have taken a break between the books.
prob my fav book in the series; it was the first Dune book I read after seeing the Lynch movie; good review
Every time I watch a Dune analysis video or something, I spend half the video trying to figure out which character the narrator's talking about since I apparently pronounced almost everything differently in my head! Bijaz I pronounced more like Bye-Yaz, so I was totally confused there. Scytale I pronounced like Sigh-Tall-Aye, and for Irulan I said like Ee-Rue-lan. I've found that this happens with tons of Dune videos. There are infinite pronunciations apparently!
With you on Ee -Rue-Lan, but Bijaz was always Bee-Jas to me 😉
There’s a TH-cam channel dedicated to Dune with whole videos on the right pronunciation of Dune characters/words. He claims to have referenced how Frank Herbert pronounced them in interviews.
Latest news/report from Villenueve is that 'Messiah' is definitely in the works. To paraphrase him, "it will only make sense to make the Paul story complete with 'Messiah'". So we could keep our fingers crossed that WB will green-lit the movie.
And it'd be cool if Peter Dinklage were to play Bijaz.
That would be awesome. Hope it happens.
loved the review!!!
Thank you!
I think Messiah took some convincing for me too. But once I got about half way through my opinion started to change and by the end of it I think it was a great book to finish off the first book. At first I was also disappointed that we didn’t get to see the Jihad but going back I love what Frank Herbert did with it. And I really truly hope Denis Can adapt Messiah into a movie. I’d love to see his take on it
great video! i think you deserve more subs in this channel, keep up the good work.
*****spoiler*****
i remember that the transition of hayt's mind to duncan idaho was really instant and superficial. Also the dialogue between paul and hayt in that scene was way too unconvincing.
*****spoiler*****
there are a couple of more minor issues like this in the book which i cannot remember rn. but in overall, i think this book gives a different perspective for readers about dune universe and characters.
Thanks for the support. I’m going to try and review every Dune comic/novel!
good review, thanks! subbed!
Honestly I was sold by the intro with A historian/journalist in a religious prison being condemned to death for speaking the truth
I agreed 100% with this review THANK YOU!
The 3 part SIfy mini series CHILDREN OF DUNE covers Dune Messiah in the first part so there's the live action fulfillment you seek my son. I too heard the negative of Messiah going in yet I discovered it to be great and regard it as near the best. Paul I and II seem to have death wishes it's hard to imagine God Emperor surviving 3,500 years taking all the chances he does but I know I suppose by the end he's bored and needs the thrill of danger.
Most people don't like their fiction to be this real and stirring them to think about something that isn't prechewed. It's why Marvel and Star Wars will always be more popular.
Honestly, it's my favorite book in the saga so far.
I have a feeling that the people who were disappointed with this book were those who thought Paul was a hero and missing the point of the 1 book about religious leaders and political messiahs. The book is incredible.
Great video.
Agreed. Thanks for watching!
Dune Messiah was a Great Read... as far as I remember, I enjoyed it MORE THAN the original Dune novel.
Just finished reading. Very well executed storyline, but damn do I feel a bit bummed out now.
I really feel like Matrix Revolutions “borrowed” quite liberally from this book. Neo being blinded but still being able to ‘see’, the fates of Trinity and Neo compared to Chani and Paul... too coincidental
100% agree, finished it today and I keep thinking about how much Revolutions stole from this. More than the original Matrix stole from Ghost in the Shell… Unlike Revolutions thought, I thought Messiah finished in spectacular fashion and Hayt turned out to be an amazing character, loved every page he was in.
@@khimaros I’ve come to appreciate Revolutions more after rewatching many years later. Pacing isn’t great, but considering how rushed and chaotic the shoot apparently was (with lots of pressure and studio interference) I consider it a solid film and enjoy it.
I'd have to agree with your closing statements. While this book isn't as action packed as the first it really does build up the story, while closing loose ends and making you that more pumped for Children of Dune, which feels like starting a whole new story all together while being the same saga.
Def an underrated classic...
My bigggest disappointment was that they really only reflect on the destruction caused by the JIhad for less than a chapter. I wish they would have told us what actually happened because I was very unclear how the Jihad occurred and what Paul's involvement was in it. They spend most of novel going along in a seemingly meaningless direction.
I talk about that a little in the video but yeah, I wish we got more info about that as well. Thanks for watching!
It almost feels like "clone wars" when we got revenge of the sith. A very important war that wasnt covered.
Same. When they listed the numbers, I was horrified. Especially about the planets that were “demoralized”. Because that word implies many meanings , and none of them are good.
I thought Dune Messiah was a more satisfying reading experience than the first book. All the introductions are done and the story moves from the start. I found the ending to be very satisfying as well.
The way this book is written to me feels like a conclusion to the first dune book I could see dune Messiah being book 4 of the first dune book I think it be amazing if dune had 4 books but that's just a thought but I think if Frank Herbert done that dune might not be the best selling SciFi book of all time so who knows
I thought Dune Messiah was a great book, not quite what I was expecting. The whole trilogy in fact. I read this as part of The Great Dune Trilogy in one book (as with Dune and Children of Dune). So once this story finished I could go straight into C.O.D if I wanted to. I might be wrong but I can imagine some people not liking this might be that they had to wait in between each book and might’ve not had a chance to go straight into C.O.D to follow up with. I’ve treated Dune Messiah and Children of Dune essentially as one book. Also, it is slower than Dune with a lot more meetings, sitting round tables talking and plotting. But for me this added more to the tension.
I’ve only read Dune Messiah once and this was what I got from it first time round. This story kept me on edge with Paul’s character, working out how much of the jihad he wanted to happen and how much of it he couldn’t control and didn’t want to happen, which as the book goes along becomes more clearer. His boasting which I read as him really being sarcastic, his self pity with some scary and shocking comparisons. The story showed how interpretations of him as the messiah and what he wanted for Arrakis was misconstrued by some of his followers who took things into their own hands acting out of their own pain and anger from what they’ve experienced, how they’ve been treated in the past being oppressed for so long. I could sense his struggle of having to live up to expectations.
The introduction of the ghola was a very interesting concept to me. Touching on the theme of memories, who’s real, visual association and identity. The fact that Paul knew this was a potential trap but still went along with it I found intriguing also. Stilgar’s role in this book was an interesting one also. Tension with his loyalty to Paul whilst doubts were starting to creep in.
The book felt like a long build up to which when the climax came was very epic and was suddenly all go go go which I absolutely loved - SPOILER ALERT
E.g from when Hayt gains his memories as Duncan to then being triggered to try and kill Paul. Then the face off with Paul and Scytale with the face dancer giving Paul an ultimatum which Paul refuses because he knows that his heir would be a greater leader than the ones who plotted against him and wanted control. I was totally captivated when Paul still blind but was able to see through Leto’s eyes to defeat Scytale. Wow!! This had a great ending which though was tragic for me had a element of redemption for Paul. Once I finished Dune Messiah I wanted to start Children of Dune straight away.
The bit where Paul goes to see Alia being worshipped by her followers had me gripped and on edge. And the scenes of the group planning on taking down Paul I enjoyed reading.
SPOILERS FOR MATRIX, STAR WARS
When Paul went blind but yet could still see and actually see more than with his physical eyes, I couldn’t help but think that Matrix Revolutions was inspired by this when Neo went physically blind!
Also I saw even more things that inspired Star Wars. For a start Paul has twins a boy and girl to which his concubine dies from giving birth to them. They both have special abilities due to their genetic heritage.
I plan on reading the trilogy again and I’m sure I’ll get more things from it and may even see certain moments slightly differently. One things for sure the Dune series is not a straight forward story.
Love this book, so clever and so essential after dune Never liked other books
I love when young ones discover Dune.
No matter what no one can take away the beauty n grandness of the dune saga by Frank Herbert
Villeneuve has announced his desire to make this into a movie as "part III" of the Dune franchise.
That would be amazing.
If part 2 is profitable I think it will happen. But could end up being the last one because Messiah is not exactly mainstream-friendly - even a lot of Dune fans find it hard going!! Hope they make it though. Would be great to see Charlotte Rampling play Mohaim in this and a grown up Alia, Momoa back as Hayt, would we great to see
@@alastairmcleod3635 Denis said he wants a trilogy and Messiah would be the closer so even if it did keep going he'd be taking a backseat if involved at all
He sucks and his movies suck.
I am really looking forward to Denis Villeneuve directing DUNE: MESSIAH as the third entry in a DUNE trilogy, but I can't help but think the book is too expansive to be adapted into a single movie...I would be happy if he split it into two movies like he did with DUNE!
People keep saying this book is unfilmable. But it is fully possibly to make a movie out of it. The question is if it will make its money back, since it's not exactly an adventurous action film.
I think so too. Aside from the original, I think it’s the most tightly plotted book in the series.
Ah Bijaz! I really do hope they cast Peter Dinklage..
I'm expecting Denis Villeneuve's take on this novel for the next movie will differ greatly from the book. Especially since there was no time jump between the dune part 1 and part 2 and the way things were left off.
I really can't wait to see it though and I hope he doesn't shy away too much from some of the weirdness of the novel.
I literally have the book in my hand and I'm about to read it for the first time. I have a couple pages of the first left to go, but it's my second read of the first book. I was getting ready for the movie to come out in December, but since it got pushed I'm just going to read the entire series. At least the books that Frank Herbert wrote.
Right there with you, already on heretics
@@michaelproano1449 I'm at the exact same place now and I just got Heretics from Amazon. I blew through Messiah, Children, and God Emperor over the last month.
Didn’t enjoy this book on my first read. Definitely appreciate it more on my second read, now that I am familiar with the rest of the books.
I just finished messiah today and am 3 chapters into children. I really liked messiah, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Seemed logical.
Thank you for your review of both Dune and Dune Messiah. Great job! While I ranked Dune Messiah number four in the six novel series, I really, really enjoyed it. I place it not too far away from Dune, Children of Dune, and Heretics of Dune. God Emperor of Dune was a bit too inaccessible to me (but still enjoyed it). Chapter House Dune is my least favorite, but still interesting.
The Sci-Fi channel's 2003 Children of Dune (incorporates both Dune Messiah and Children of Dune) was much better than their attempt at Dune in 2000. However, and like you, I wished they had expanded upon some elements, plus the series had its own problems. But they also did a few thinks wonderfully. One scene in particular had me cheering. It was the execution of Paul's enemies and doing it "God Father" style ... i.e., Michael Corleone at a baptism repeating words from the priest, while his men killed his enemies, and Paul in a trance internally watching Chani giving birth, while Alia, Gurney and a few of his men were killing his enemies (and it being accompanied by luscious music!). Even though the novel didn't kill Paul's enemies one after another on the same day, I loved the impact it had in the film.
I too was told Messiah was a weak point. I enjoyed it more than Children of Dune on first read. Currently on heretics of Dune and loving it. So much that after chapterhouse I'm going back and doing it all again!
I loved Dune Messiah. It was a good albeit short book compared to Dune! In all honesty it felt like a prologue to Children of Dune! Felt like it set up the scenes and plot of the sequel!
Paul is a very sympathetic figure! Becoming the Emperor had advantages and major draw backs! And his legend tended to preceed him! He had problems with all the sycophants who followed him and wrote, rewrote and or embellished his life and achievements!
Sage warning that seeing the future makes it hard to live spontaneously! The risks of prescient vision!
This was originally supposed to be part of the first Book. Until Frank's publisher told him to trim it off and publish it as it's own book.
Messiah is the bomb 💣 , one i had the most fun reading .
BTW is this scytale the same as scytale the master in book 5/6 ?
I think the Scytale in the later books is a Ghola. I could be wrong though, it’s been a little while since I read them.
@@RonReviews2 yes he is a ghola , (all the masters are ghola with past memories )and i was wondering if maybe he was rewarded for hes role
looking forward to your Children of Dune review
Thanks! It’s up already. I have videos on the first 4 books in my dune playlist.
Ron Reviews haha I noticed right after commenting! Good stuff!
I really think a lot of people hate or more accurately disappoint in Paul in unjustified way .like the man have made a lot of mistakes but he always wanted the best for the people he have grown to love the fremaa. in the end he couldn’t betray them and became the shatian (literally mean the devil ).that he was suppose to be but please don’t misunderstand that as him been coward or someone who intentionally moved that great price to his son .I really think he had paied the price of becoming one without even the ability to be with his lover. something which he could do if he had followed the golden path himself so he tried what he always tried .to chose the middle ground between the chooses not fully abandoning the golden path and it the same time not to betray his people. to became the god emperor without actually becoming A god in flesh is to create an imperial ruled through religion a religion that make him the god and the ruler even after his death . That is the middle ground that is the path he wanted to create . And sadly enough he failed largely because of the corrpation that every society have .
The Fremen are the Necromongers of the Dune universe.
I read almost the entire book on a flight back from ATL this weekend. I texted my friend who introduced the series to me, and I told him I like this better than Dune
I can’t see the book separate in the initial trilogy and in that it stands.
Kinduv spoilers: Paul didn't lose everything. His prophetic visions showed many paths into the future and which steps (or decisions) he could take to help humamity the most. Some of the decisions he had to make hurt him profoundly. But he made the decisions because the alternatives were even worse. The other thing that Paul revealed (in Messiah, or perhaps the end of Dune?) was that he was a "seed" for something to grow. It isnt until The God Emperor of Dune (fourth book) that we learn what he alluded to.
I enjoyed Dune Messiah too, but I couldn't help feeling that though the lack of agency of the characters was no doubt an intentional move for Herbert, I thought characters like Alia and Chani really just served as counterpoints to Paul rather than their own people. Paul, Hayt and I guess Scytale were really the only characters that *did* anything for the story. And I would've loved to see more Lady Jessica! Thought she would've really added to the dynamic, and I'm hoping she's brought back into the fold for the third book
@James Herndon yeah I agree with you, I definitely think it was a deliberate choice to demonstrate the nature of prescience and the illusion of choice. I just would've preferred a greater compromise between that philosophy and more of a sense of immediate investment in the characters and their choices. And as I mentioned before, I think the women in dune messiah suffered from a lack of agency much more than the men, which was obviously common for fiction from the era. I doubt Herbert meant to de-prioritise his female characters, since he still managed to give them depth and nuance. They just didn't really *do* much for the story, unlike the men.
@James Herndon haha well yeah totally, just hampered my enjoyment of the book here and now in 2020, the quality was still great for the time. But yeah I've heard that about the later books. I actually stopped reading after children of dune because I just wasn't digging it anymore. Might pick up the series again one day though. Absolutely love the original
Love this book great review
Thanks!
i loved this book because its short and also covers pauls heavy burden.
the only thing i didn’t like is 9 year old alia confessing her love to adult duncan idaho. technically shes older but still she’s 9 LOL
Is she not like 14 or 15? I think 12 years of so have passed since the start of Muadib's Jihad
The time jump was 10-12 years I believe? Im pretty sure she is a teenager but still, it was pretty icky reading those parts.
@@justinrampert9360 yeah but still, another funny part in god emperor is when
spoiler
that fish speaker spy org4sm at duncan climbing like hahahaha
Not saying this is any better but she has lived countless adult lives, including her own parents, swimming in her mind. She is technically ancient. It might be more creepy knowing the Baron is in there
You should really try getting n check out the dune encyclopaedia it's rich n grand n so much detail from all eras of dune n there sections about Paul's Jihad n Paul's empire as well as Leto 2 empire n all the different Duncan Idaho's U check it out also has forward by Frank Herbert
I actually enjoyed the read of Messiah more than I did of dune. Naturally, though I'm sure Dune is probably a better book. but man this shit was fire. cant wait to read children.
God emperor of Dune is very good. Brian Herbert’s aren’t as good, but they are okay if you don’t compare. The ideas of the first make it my favorite and the best re read. I’ve read the first dune many times. The idea of. A Chair dog is one of my favorite sci fi ideas. I want one.
I was 15 when i read Dune and loved it. I was hyped to read Dune Messiah a year later and continue the saga but found it such a drag. As i read through and turned those pages I kept hoping, here is probably where it's going to pick up but it never really did for me. So i didn't enjoy it. But it was nonetheless an important part of the story and build up for Children of Dune which i read a few years after and did enjoy.
That being said, I will be re-reading the saga and plan to continue through them all the way to chapter house. I'm actually looking forward to giving Dune Messiah another chance with a fresh perspective.
I really hope Villeneuve makes this into a movie as well.
He wants a trilogy with this as the closer
@@ChrisLamia Fml we’re never gonna get Children of Dune
@@kaspersaldell Probably not with Denis but if 2 and 3 do well it could happen
I didn't have any real issues with Messiah other than it was too damned short. For me it blends into Children and I see those two as one.
Paul was not blinded half way through, this was in the final act of the book
It’s a shorter book than the rest. Maybe that’s why it felt like that happened halfway through to me.
I think I messed up reading the book because I had a hard time getting through the first half and so I read it really slowly and then when it picked up in the second half I read it in one night so I had a hard time connecting the dots from the first half with the second half so I don't think I was able to appreciate the story in its entirety as much as I could
People who hate the Dune sequels are like people who love The Hobbit but hate Lord of the Rings
Messiah is my favorite of the 6 lol
I don't like the idea of those cash-in expanded book series. Frank Herbert was a genius and deliberately started and ended each story at those certain points.
i liked it. it's a fitting end to pauls story. dune or shit happens.
It's not a bad book, and have no gripe with fast forwarding 15 years to show that defeating the Emperor and Harkonens did not lead to happy endings for everyone. The theme of Paul trying to escape from vision as to the consequences of victory was a theme of the first book and Messiah was a development of that - it is all about him having prescience but not liking what he saw and trying to escape it (for both himself and the world around him). That is all fine. The world building and the characters are good too. My main gripe with the second book is that, all the way up to the (very captivating) stone burner scene, very little action happens - too much talking and too little action. If the first book was not so absolutely riveting in terms of the constant grand scale action after brief scene setting at the beginning, maybe that would not have been such a contrast, but I could not put down the first book, whereas I found myself trying to hurry along in Messiah to get to something actually happening, rather than opining about priescience, philosophy and plots.
I really really felt for Irulan. People villainize her, but she got dealt one of the worst hands. Paul humiliated her constantly and used her. And she had a conscience and had no idea that the contraceptives would end up killing Chani. She showed growth by leaving the sisterhood while Jessica stayed in it. She was a hostage and honestly if I were her I would have no qualms about killing Chani as Irulan was supposed to bear the heir by the standard set in the imperium. Paul is very big on rules for thee and not for me. He’s a hypocrite and a horrible emperor . Paul gives her a very very begrudging respect but that’s about it.
Even after the plot to bring him down, the first thing she does is go to Paul (you literally know because author makes it a huge point to describe she’s wearing the same outfit from the conspiracy meeting )and just by the way her movements were described you can tell she’s trying her hardest save him and his concubine. Paul is too arrogant to listen.
I really liked messiah because it seems like people didn’t get that Paul is NOT a hero. And his actions disgusted me. He didn’t give the so-called love of his life, the truth or the right to choose. He decided HE knew Best.
I hate it when people say that Paul is some tragic hero. While his story is tragic, so is everyone else’s and it’s because of Paul. He wasn’t even there in his so called “beloved” final moments.
I love the way Herbert wrote the books. The only time Paul showed any type of redemption was in children when he was the preacher and even then it was half ass but it was the only time he tried. I know someone will probably cuss me out in the comments, but the fact that an author made me hate a protagonist so much is amazing. But Paul cared for Paul. Full stop. (All of this is imo, I’m not going to fight on here)
think this was the best book in the series; and was also the thinnest book
While Dune Messiah is great, I would wholeheartedly support God Emperor as the best in the series. God Emperor is Messiah on steroids, one of the best showcases of tyranny in literature. Unbiased and raw, with the underlying philosophy it speaks of absolutism, parenting and sentient beings in general.Messiah had the same goal, delivered beautifully, but it seems like Herbert was refraining himself.
Spot on. Children of Dune did a great job setting up God Emperor and doing a far better job than DM in "completing the Atreides arc". D1 -> Paul's Rise D2 -> Paul's Downfall D3 -> Leto II rise D4 -> Leto II downfall and culmination of his golden path. Unlike Paul, his downfall actually granted humanity a second chance.