V5 Blood Sorcery
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Greetings Kindred, tonight we begin a journey into the dark practices of Blood Sorcery. Thaumaturgy to some, Quietus to others, this discipline has a rocky past and and even stranger present with all the changes that have been made in this new edition of Vampire the Masquerade.
Imagine using shape the sacrament to quickly prepare a ritual's required circles and glyphs, reducing the time or difficulty of said ritual
Since reading Shape of the Sanguine Sacrament I've always been line, "Neat... what's the point?" But seriously this is such a great idea. I actually see a reason for this discipline now. Thank you.
THe sorcery styles are different too, while Blood sorcery basic powers are the same for all kindred sorcerers. THe rituals are much different, owing to the different styles. Like Dur An Ki as explained eariler gaining more rituals depends on a drug induced vision quest where the sorcerer meets spirits and negotiates with tehm to be taught new rituals, Tremere, use mathematics, physics , to create new rituals, Settites use faith religion based ways . Ogham also spirit based without the drug vision quest, Anarch sorcery is basically tremere hermetic thaumaturgy maybe mixed in with shamanic principles. etc etc etc .
Oh yes, I love the different styles for each of the clans.
Don't forget the rituals in Chicago Folios, V5 Camarilla and the Fall of London when making the next video about Blood Sorcery rituals.
I'm digging through them right now.
Supposedly Blood sorcery(like oblivion) did not originate from Caine, as of V5 I posit that Haqim was the first blood sorcerer , in fact Haqim in a number of accounts was opposed to Caine and the other clan founders.
Very true. But there are many histories the contradict.
@@VoivodeMekhet yep kindred histories are very much muddled heck not surprised many are false histories.
Burn your enemy’s vitae and send them into a hunger frenzy. Great tactic to send the SI after them or make them a mask breacher.
This new Tremere are a lot more designed to be a roleplay character than the dnd mage in fangs from the old
I completely agree
I find Augustus now mounted with blood sorcery intriguing considering since 1e downhill assaults there has been blood sorcery rituals, alchemical weapons (1e).Tending towards sorcerer casts of Baanu Haqim.
Are the devs treating blood sorcery like DA V20 koldunism, path powers of marina followed by a slew of rituals? The thaumaturgy/sorcery paths devolved to rituals?
Not really sure. I haven't kept up much with V20 stuff since V5 came out. I do love that they offer Koldunism at all though. I miss that so much.
If you put wards on individual playing cards and handed the deck to a ghoul/kindred, do they get zapped for agg damage 52 times (assuming ritual success)? 🤔
*Playing a tremere/banu tarot reader:* I diagnose you with dead.
Also shape the sacrament might be a bit better than I thought, since a lot of powers involve manipulating or shooting vitae, and being able to bend poisonous vitae away from you/back onto someone would be quite satisfying. Also being able to precisely steer your blood past someone's lips/shoot it up their nose could be a way to finish blood-bonding someone who's trying to avoid that third taste. I know "Shaping" and "Moving" are theoretically different, but I don't see how you can do one without the other.
I had decided that the Blood Sorcery rituals are going to get their own Level By Level playlist. There's just so many. Unfortunately using a ward on a pack of cards would only work if the ghoul/kindred picked them up themselves and it would only do the initial damage. Unless you put the ward on each card and placed them down individually (as an ST I'd allow all the cards to be wared at once). But the way wards work they don't work if you hand them over. That's why you can't ward a sword and have it do extra damage.
I had never considered how useful shape the sacrament was until someone pointed out that it could be used to set up for rituals more.
As for Koldunic sorcery it is blood sorcery where you have to commune with a demon which in this case is Kupala who is probably an earthbound(no relation tot he demons worshipped by Infernalist nephandi and Baali). to teach the supplicants rituals much like Dur An Ki.
I can see this...
That being said, my inner Tzimisce is popping up:
The proper term is Koldunism or you could say the practice of Koldune. The word Koldune means Sorcery and therefore to say Koldunic Sorsery is saying; "Sorcerous Sorcery". That just hurts.
Getting in a little on Kupala which comes from the Skaldic Kupala's Night or the Summer Solstice, Kupala is litterally the sun. Over time as Christians have gotten involved the Celebration was dedicated to St. John of Dracon Killing renown, making it mistakingly thought that St. John was Kupala. Given the Tutonic origin and the Eastern European practices of communing with "Land Wights" or land spirits, the practice of Koldunism is the practice of communing and controling land spirits.
Okay, so here is what I'm seeing from all your videos. You are not seeing the Paths and other types of blood sorcery represented in their original organization in the book and are therefor determining that they don't exist narratively or there must be some narrative reason for the mechanical reorganization?
When v5 first came out they left out the reasoning for such a huge change to the narrative and the concept contained such shock value that videos such as "WTF happened to Thaumaturgy?" were the obvious outcome that would get the community to not only grow but also to get involved in the discussion. Since the then the v5 writing staff has changed hands and more and more narrative has come out due to that. I believe that in the game the Paths and such still exist but due to the Vienna attack the elders of the clan are now greedily holding them to themselves. With books out there such as Cults of the Blood Gods it does seem that they are rewriting the Paths to be more Ritual paths and not Disciplines themselves. I'm fine with that. I kind of like that truthfully. Let's Blood Sorcery be nasty but not too OP. I can also see why they would stop sharing the knowledge. With the blood bonds broken you can't control the young ones and the way thigs are going with Carna, it is understandable. Perhaps this should be the next TR;DL video.
@@VoivodeMekhet I honestly fail to see a huge change to the narrative. I honestly fail to see any change to the narrative really that hasn’t come with explanation (but that could 100% just be a failing to read more on my part). Obviously there has been some huge mechanical reorganization. Dementation into Domination, Obtenebration and Necromancy into Oblivion, and all Blood Sorcery under one umbrella mechanically. But this section starts off by acknowledging various forms of blood sorcery and shows Hermetic Blood Sorcery still in practice by Carna, and I think they use it to have like a “Clan meeting” at one point. So I agree I think we know the Thaumaturgical Paths still exist narratively. And while one tenant all Tremere swear to is to not deprive other members of “magical power”, I think the shattering of the pyramid would ABSOLUTELY result in a lock down of ALL texts. So I definitely agree with you that they would, and really should, stop sharing knowledge. Those who find themselves with separatist leanings such as Carna and the Ipsissimus will be looking to obtain and horde texts for themselves, those with loyalist leanings will be doing the same to keep them out of the hands of separatists, etc. And there can be no new thaumaturgical practitioners to loyalist camps because they have rules against teaching to those outside the pyramid. Which everyone is now, if not in spirit then certainly in blood. And separatists might also be weary of teaching as their knowledge might be stolen too. It’s a mess and I love it haha
I did see some of the old “Lure of Flame” path in Cult of the Blood Gods you’re talking about and I definitely agree we will see more of that more powerful thaumaturgy come into play mechanically as rituals. But they always were hermetic rituals narratively, at least to some degree. I think too many people played those old combat paths like X-men style fire and lighting powers when they were organized like disciplines. I’m excited to see the more Hermetic ritual style, even if they are quick preprepared rituals that get slotted into the “power section” like the wall walking thing.
The video this comment is on was also made 8 months ago. My opinion on these things have changed over time and most of that has been not just from the reading of the material given to us by World of Darkness but also from this amazing community that never fails to have drawn out stimulating conversations over the content. I'd like to point out your own comments right here that are in depth, detailed and show that you have a love for the game like we all do here. In the text it is spelled out very well by the narrative that the knowledge of the Clan Tremere has been locked down and that only the "Path of Blood" which in the new scenario seems to imply might have been originally stolen from the Banu Haqim (which I love by the way), which is actually supported by the Book of NOD. That the neonates cannot be trusted due to the breaking away of Carna and that the Book of the Grave War is making it's way throughout Tremere circles. Chantries are falling and tutelage of Blood Sorcery is now an increasingly rare occurrence. I love it. It makes the Tremere, a classically broken and OP clan (mostly due to laziness or misunderstanding of STs and the over ambition or "Twinkishness" of players) playable and not as tied to the Pyramid which made them kind of boring to play. But the option is still there to play a classic Tremere if one wants to by using Loresheets and personal narrative.
@@VoivodeMekhet When you say New Scenario, do you mean V5 or a specific book?
I’m both glad they got rid of the paths and would like to see a Loresheet or Rituals that give you some power that emulates an iconic power of one of the old paths. But it got way too crazy with the paths and I saw people using paths more than rituals which, to me, are what people should actually be focusing on.
I’ve always loved Tremere and it was my first character (a ghoul) and my first Vampire but I cannot express how much more I love the Tremere and Thaumaturgy now after all these years of people playing them. It just got so stupid most of the time
I can't disagree with that.
Tell me about it. I knew a guy who built his own paths based off of Pokemon. Not kidding.
Yup. Tremere has always been my favorite clan, and this version of Thaumaturgy/Blood Sorcery is probably my favorite. The proliferation of paths just got ridiculous, so a pared down version that’s just a discipline plus rituals is a breath of fresh air. And yeah, I can see them turning some paths into rituals. Like, path of weather control would be perfect for turning into a ritual.
@@ajvanbreen I appreciate the changes, and one of my favorite powers is still here. Cauldron of blood, my character helped his chantry take praxis from a toreador Prince with that one. One of my camarilla fan club larp crowning jewels there
I have a theory that why blood sorcery and oblivion are able to produce rituals but the other disciplines cannot. Blood sorcery is the manipulation of the blood in its most basic form, in that case, for a kindred when you can manipulate blood you can create new powers for the blood like a mortal mage of sorcerer does . depending on the sorcery style but its both an internal and external style where the kindred relies on his own willpower on his own blood to create new rituals. interactions with spirits as the assamite sorcerers ogham etc. does is basically the blood translating the rituals taught by spirits into Blood Sorcery discplines. internal styles like Hermetic Tremere thaumaturgy, Settite sorcery etc. are using the kindreds own self willpower etc. to create new rituals. Now as for Oblivion, my take is that Oblivion comes from the Abyss, which means the manipulation of the abyss. again different styles like Necromancy is more of Tremere hermetic thaumaturgy procedures being applied to the abyss with the focus on wraiths and the afterlife. . Obtenebration, is the direct manipulation of the abyss by the kindreds own blood and willpower. Now Dark Thaumaturgy and Baali Daimoneon I think will be folded into Oblivion or as they call it will have its own rituals, now I htink Baali Oblivion will probalby have to be much changed from the original daimoneon to better fit them as traffickers with the infernal. I think Baali or infernal oblivion would probalby more akin to ceremonies but instead of dealing with wraiths they deal with demons.
That makes a lot of sense.
11:47 Corrosive Vitae
14:47 A Taste for blood
24:20 Scorpion's Touch
I think that if Koldunism is brought in soon, which I hope is somewhat touched on at least in the Sabbat book, that they could be Blood Sorcery Rituals but with a prerequisite of learning a specific power in a different discipline besides Blood Sorery. I saw a homebrew Oblivion Ceremony brought back from V20 Necromancy where the required power was actually an Obfuscate ability. So maybe for Way of Earth you could have Potence requirements (since Potence has Earthshock as a power), or just have them be amalgams. Hey, maybe Way of Air could require the Protean Weight of the Feather power. I dunno, just curious as to your thoughts.
That all sounds good but I hope they go detailed into it.
Now here is a posit, since the new Sabbat are cain fanatics they probably eschew any disciplines that did not originate with cain so that means Blood sorcery and Oblivion are considered heretical disciplines.
I can see that, but with most fanatical groups I think that the Sabbat is more likely to bend the stories to their own use. They will "find" lore that supports the use of those powers.
I like how even the lv1 powers while not powerful can be exploited, like you can gather information extremely quickly by feeding with a lv1 power
I can't argue with the versatility of v5 Blood Sorcery.
I wonder what new Blood Sorcery rituals we will be seeing in the upcoming Sabbat book. Part of me hopes we might see the return of Nectar of the Bitter Rose, which always struck me as fitting Dark Thaumaturgy better, and makes more sense being something that the packs of blood sorcerer Sabbat would use to better themselves.
I can see that, although I really wouldn't ever think that the Tremere themselves would not have developed it.
my take on assamite factions as of V5: Warriors: Blood Sorcery, Celerity , Obfuscate, vizier: Dominate , Blood Sorcery, Presence. Sorcerers: Auspex, Blood Sorcery, Presence. Why the change?: with sorcerers and viziers. Viziers: well they are the diplomats and negotiators , assamite financiers, hence the Dominate and Presense. Sorcers, well since Dur An ki rituals have to be taught by spirits(like shamanism) where the Sorcerers go into a drug induced dream quest, they have to negotiate with spirits to teach them the rituals(similiar to Garou and Shamans), hence Auspex to better interact with teh spirit world and presence for negotiation with spirits who gain a lot fo their power from emotions which presence manipulates.
I completely support this. As it is most Camarilla Banu Haquim should be Viziers.
@@VoivodeMekhet Yep most of the Viziers left , about half of the Sorcerers and some of the Warriors left for the Camarilla. The Ur Shulgi Assamites are mostly warriors with some Sorcereres and a few viziers.
i dont like many changes that they did in v5 but the thaumaturgy one is the most hard hitting, it raises so much confusion - how do assamites suddenly have acces to tremere rituals and vice versa? hwat about older Tremere, the vampires that learned thaumaturgy out of clan, what about dark Thaumaturgy and the Baali...i get the idea of dumbing it down so new players have a chance but seriously, so much dumbing down was done, they could at least have left a little complexity to thaumaturgy, maybe fuse a few paths together so that you end up with 3 to choose from instead of basicly 1, representing tremere, assamites and baali which are the clans that practise this art the most.
And for Tzimisce - Koldunism.
On counter to your point; I love most of the changes that came with v5, but I agree with you on Thaumaturgy for the most part. I do enjoy the idea that Blood Sorcery being "Path of Blood" was stolen from the Banu Haquim by the Tremere. I know it doesn't say that right out anywhere but the narrative fills itself out for me. As it is they have either stolen or attempted to steal something from most, if not all of the clans in their rise to power and it builds on to them being the Usurpers. I think enough time has passed for the Banu Haquim to have either taken or reverse engineered whatever rituals they have from the Tremere, so that doesn't bother me. My issues sit with "where is the rest?"
In L.A. by Night Jason Carl allows for some "classic" Thaum to shine through and I have found in my games that any Thaum written from 1998 and later easily converts to v5 with a simple Resolve + Blood Sorcery test. I basically just say that Blood Sorcery is Path of Blood and the only true Discipline of the bunch and is all that is used during the test. If someone was to use Movement of the Mind in my game the Test would be based off their level of "Blood Sorcery" . It works pretty well.
Since the game is based around the idea that younger Kindred are presented as the PCs I believe that the other paths are still there and practiced by the older Tremere and kindred outside the tremere but what is presented is just the easiest to get a hold of, the rest ment for SPC use. Some of the other paths have been brought down to just a grouping of rituals, which I don't mind but I'd dtill like a better explanation.
As for Koldunism; I do think that those powers should be relegated to rituals and not "point and shoot" mechanics. Koldunism is a set of religious and ritualistic practices that could either be set up quite nicely as loresheets or just a grouping of rituals.
@@VoivodeMekhet i like sophisticated discussion. now i dont like the new hunger and blood potency system it makes elder vampires gamemechanicly unplayable and thus NPCs need to have other rules applying to them than PCs, effectively meaning PCs can never be like the npcs, no matter what they do.
I also strongly dislike how roads and paths of enlightenmend were replaced by standard - you have to follow road of humanity with up to 3 exceptions...kinda.
I hate the fact they merged disciplines stripping unique flavor from some clans and sharing it to others where it makes no sense. Malkavians, Tremere and Tzimisce were hit hardest by this.
But to thaumaturgy. Caine originally learned it from demons, according to the book of Nod. The first clan we see using it, by a long shot, are the Baali, who likely learned it like caine, from demons. Then the Banu haqim showed up and learned thaumaturgy from *drumroll* Ur Shulgi a Baali and Molochim, Molochim also have the exact same blood sorcery the assamites had.
So likely the assamites got their blood sorcery from the Baali - and so did the Tremere. How so? The Baali wanted to take out the Salubri but couldnt do it openly, they also wanted to bring clans closer to corruption which was becoming difficult due to what happened in carthage but a new clan with no former knowledge...
See there, Mortal Mage Infernalists in House Tremere (still mortals) who could be aware of it? baali.
Who could know how to magicly make Mortal mages into vampires? Demons...thus Baali. Who knows where Saulot is to be found? Baali. Who had a huge grudge against Tzimisce, Gangrel and Nosferatu? Baali...who did the Tremere hunt first? Tzimisce, Gangrel and Nosferatu, what a coincidence.
Who was the clan ost infested by Baali? tremere with the order of the wyrm. What a coincidence...
Tremere/Saulot was turning into...something demonic. Neither Tremere nor Saulot...coincidence?
Not to mention the Tremere were the most lax of all camarilla clans on infernalism...coincidence?
I think the tremere were lead and partially created by the Baali, who taught them blood sorcery just like they taught the Assamites. its also supported by the rules as dark thaumaturgists could learn normal thaumaturgical paths with no previous training needed.
That said afaik path of blood was never the orerequisite to learn other paths in v20. Wouldnt make sense since baali dont even gain access to it unless they join up with the Tremere
Koldunism and Krainas are different, though that magic also stems from demons (Kuppala mostly) so all vampiric magic is ultimately demonic...and who is the clan that deals most with them? Baali. Also the Baali held a big biiiig grudge against the Assamites...guess who went full after those....Tremere. Coincidence?
@@OrkarIsberEstar I like your line of thought, though I like it more from the perspective that the Baali, Salubri, and Tremere are all Saulot's entries into the jyhad, and that it's the machinations of Saulot that drive the pyramid. The idea continuing that Tremere as Goratrix orchestrated the fall of Vienna to free his house of Saulot's will. But I like weaving the antediluvian's into the world as still active manipulators.
im thinking Blood sorcery in V5 is just the basic discipline but the paths are just rituals. now how do you adapt that to the Assamites. I think the warrior, vizier and Sorcerer factions are still there, all the factions use the basic blood sorcery however the old quietus powers for hte vizier and sorcerer woulid probably be amalgrams and or rituals. other old sorcery styles like settite sorcery, ogham etc. would just be rituals and amalgrams. now I would say that its a bit easier for the Sorcerer faction to create rituals as opposed to the Warriors and Viziers who probably use more amalgrams.
My favorite way of looking at it is all Kindred just call Quietus Blood Sorcery and the Tremere stole it as their base to work with to create Thaum.
also that Caitiff ability to create new disciplines I think in V5 it could be adapted that its easier for Caitiff to create new amalgram powers. instead of disciplines.
I like that. a lot.
Imagine a Sabbath using blood sorcery to incite hunger in order to cause degeneration in a target.
As an additional, regarding Quietus/blood sorcery, seeing as I love the DA V20 corebook, I think I would adapt discipline powers from both Cruscitus and Belarus strains of the Quietus, depending on whether playing warrior or vizier.
Scorpions touch should be a prerequisite of Baal's Caress because it's a refinement of that power
Can't say I never did that with path of Blood in the old days. We also used to make "Blood Grenades" filled with LSD laced elder vitae and throw them into the Elysium.... good times.
Agreed.
Dragon's Call: I see now a ritual, simplified and no longer extended contested Stamina roll to do lethal damage. Fatal to mortals, can be sustained 2further times. Definite welcome change, especially during Call of London.