You know what I just realized? Their idea for a Fire-type based variant is like a building that burned down and is still on fire... and not like, a volcano, or something.
It makes perfect sense, what do you think is harder? Putting a burning building or making a volcano? Volcanos are made by nature, buildings are made by man. Even if they use molten steel in a rock pit, they would have to keep it hot which would use alot of energy, or else it would harden when it cools down. Burning building is easy, make a building, put some gasoline on it, spark it up and we have a viable temporary stage. When the stage transforms simply water it down and make it airtight to store it.
Kalo because when a game like Ultimate has 100+ stages you get to pick and choose so you don’t have to deal with bs like this. The worst it has is Lylat, which is nothing compared to Melee Pokémon Stadium
Ultimate's competitive scene is strong, but too many people in that community are huge babies when it comes to banning stages for the tiniest of reasons.
@@seanstange8704 What I was gonna say is about how Wobbling is pretty much banned now as a lot of majors and locals have agreed to get rid of it as more problems started showing up, and when people realized Icies don't actually need wobbling to be viable.
Trials_Of_ Death it’s honestly the only thing keeping Icies from being the most hype character. Wobbles himself has insane handoffs that are so clean and stylish. And yet... A a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a
@@Ten_Thousand_Locusts dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/synergize There you go buddy, took me like ten seconds to find. If you need to be an ass on the internet, do it right, ok? :)
AsumSaus: "One of the tournament legal stages you can just lose a stock in the middle of the stage by just falling through?" Lylat: Wait, that's weird?
normally you don't really get compliments on the fluidity or style of a video's presentation, but watching this was an absolute joy. I absolutely adore the theneedledrop parody, and your font and music choice was oddly fitting. amazing video dude.
Here's my theory: it transforms inside the ring only, and it looks like a morph, but I think it actually just swaps them out on the final frame, and the morph is separate moving geometry. When it swaps, you are below the ground there as it is the lowest point, lower than the main stage, thus you fall through
I have a thought. So when coding objects and terrains, an important thing to consider when the object is being built is the angles, particularly whether the object has any sort of internal obtuse angles (stuff like a stars). This bug occurs due to most collision systems calling the vertex of a shape rather than the edge (as most shapes are generated using their vertex and the edges are a calculated component made from the vertex). This sort of bug is fixed in a bunch of different ways, but it usually has to come in a separate object generation function than the standard one. There's a chance that the function that they call to fix this internal obtuse angle doesn't work for those specific parts. My guess is that the tree that Samus can do her shenanigans had two internal obtuse angles, and the programmers called the function for one of them but not the other. Another guess is that the function they use to fix this bug is called whenever characters and items are in contact with an object marked as having an internal obtuse angle. So when Samus goes into her ball form, the game doesn't realize that she's there (possibly due to an oversight) and she clips through. The Marth clip seems like it could be a similar oversight with hurtbox and model collision with internal obtuse angles. If the code for detecting whether an item or character is in collision is based on the model while movement of characters is based on the hurtbox, then a conflict can occur if these don't line up perfect over a specific angle (this could apply to the Samus thing as well).
About Samus being a different object when transformed: while I don't know if that is true (but I think the player object doesn't despawn-- it just calls a ball model for the length of the dodge), the technique used (the wave dash) can be used by anyone, so potentially anyone can clip through the tree the way Samus did. The only difference is that Samus can use her swingshot to stick to the tree and climb back in. So I would discard that one hypothesis
I was extremely happy when they announced Ultimate would let you freeze every stage. Then Stadium somehow still lets you clip through the floor. Stay classy, Stadium.
Mr Ville there is absolutely no way it was intentional when they patched the harmless and fun Isabelle assist trophy glitch, sadly Nintendo doesn’t seem to understand what glitches have to be patched and which ones are fine and don’t hurt anyone
The transformation animation itself could explain why players fall through the floor, as both the fire stage and original stage's collision could be conflicting with eachother during that moment. This is a pretty blind guess, however, as I don't know much about how Melee operates technically.
I remember my first time watching competitive Melee, someone went to this stage, I'm pretty sure they did an infinite, and I asked myself, "Why the fuck is this stage legal?"
Egg, I really enjoyed your evaluation of the stage but the 5 minute rant on whether or not Jews deserve human rights was just uncalled for and extremely unprofessional.
Yeah, I like having it around. Especially since there's already so little in the stage pool already. It's a good way to test a player's ability to improvise with random elements without the random being TOO swaying.
I like how he cut out the part of the first clip where the little kid says "Brawl is better". Aside from that, I want this stage to be legal, hazards on, in smash ultimate. Stage list is way too dry as is. Weird opinions man out.
Current legal stages are boring AF, some different stages would make competitive much more fun to watch. Stadium, wario ware etc. The fact that slightly angled floors rule out stages in some cases is ridiculous
I see so many posts criticizing Ultimate's competitive scene; I have a simple solution. PLAY MELEE. Or play Project plus; it fixes everything that is wrong with Melee, and has it's own community with regular tournaments. Ultimate at it's core is still a game catered to casual players, which is why there are so many limitations and ambiguities at tournament level. Ever since Brawl, Sakurai has made that a point in his development after seeing how Melee developed such a strong competitive scene. The "competitive features" he added were after a cursory examination of the competitive Brawl scene in Japan. Brawl, NOT Melee, cuz Brawl was much more popular than Melee in Japan compared to the rest of the world (which makes sense as competitive Melee started in America) and the opinions of the Japanese are always gonna be considered before anyone else, being Nintendo. Note how in the first iteration of "For Glory" mode in Sm4sh, the "competitive versions" of every stage were FD, not also Battlefield. Why? Cuz FD is often the stage of preference in Japanese competitive Smash going back to Melee even. Even in Ultimate, the stuff you can do on platforms is so horrendous you should just stick to FD. I see Hungrybox making his pleas to Nintendo over and over, but he might as well be talking to a brick wall.
Content from a melee player that calls out weird and/or bad parts of comp melee in order to change the community for the better is few and far between and I'm all for it.
@@harrylane4 Especially since there's recently a video shitting Ultimate's competitiveness as "broken". Having videos that shit on Melee's flaws fairly would balance that well. :P
@@mathunit1 But you can't though, because Melee fans would get all offended and scold the content creator for discriminating their precious game, then proceed to shit on Brawl and Ultimate because I guess that's allowed.
@@90sNath It's best described as a car crash It is an absolute dumpster fire but you just can't look away because something about it just calls for your attention
Other stages: banned for too much variation and exploitable geometry Stadium: completely legal, with included exploitable geometry and too much variation
Other stages are banned for random hazards and because they allow for degenerate gameplay like multishining into the blastzone or just running away from slower characters. Stadium has random transformations, but they are shown in advance and not really hazardous. And sure, the rock and tree promote passive gameplay, but they only last as long as that transformation does, so you can't really stall out the match. Falling through the stage is obviously stupid, but rare. The fact of the matter is that Melee is in desperate need of viable stages, and Stadium's un-transformed state is one of the best stage arrangements in the game. Frozen Stadium would be the perfect solution, but big bad Nintendo doesn't like mods, so we just have to deal. Everyone already knows Melee is jank, so I guess people would rather just look past Stadium's flaws for the sake of having one more legal stage.
Comp sci student here! I think I have a pretty good guess. Often times in a lot of games, there flat out doesn't HAVE to be a gap in order for a clip to happen. If a character is crushed between 2 or more solid objects at an angle where they can't escape, and those objects aren't programmed to be affected by the character themselves, the character will just clip through at least one of those objects. It's usually the consequence of a physics engine that attempts to emulate the concept of "every action has an equal and opposite reaction", applying it to some things (the characters), but not others (the trees). The stationary tree grips the character tight enough that it would crush someone in real life. The tree can't be affected by the force of the character, but the character is pushed in multiple contradictory directions by the tree, and it's not programmed to react to being crushed other than "get pushed in x direction by object". So whichever force is more powerful for one reason or another (be it angle or dev preference) pushes the character in that direction. The direction these characters are being pushed happens to be beyond the collision barrier of the tree.
Seems to me like there’s a reason it’s a counterpick stage. Falling through the stage is a bit much, but giving other characters access to infinite combos through its weird shifting geometry is interesting.
3:16 probably the shape of the terrain causes collision detection to fail, it is really difficult to simulate this kind of physics with multiple strange angles, more technically it probably happens because the collision box for the character collides with multiple things at the same time, you need to choose a behavior for when you collide with an obstacle, often you simply move the character back by a vector equal to the normal of the obstacle in the collision point so that if you would go past a wall you just end up against it, but in some cases this can cause you to collide with another shape, if this last shape has the correct angle this process will repeat entering a feedback loop that ends with your character on the other side of the wall, so you need edge cases for this kind of stuff but doing all edge cases is almost imposible, which is why you can often go out of bounds in games mainly moving onto terrain with collision geometry with odd angles and why most platform games use grids and try to avoid diagonal platforms, this isn't that bad, doing this right is hard, think about it, nintendo is one of the biggest game developers but you still can go out of bounds in mario odyssey
I know not all melee players think this way but a lot of them don't seem to like the shenanigans of smash ultimate but will look the other way when it comes to things like pokemon stadium, just how it seems to come across is all
@dairycans don't be a little snowflake about it. That meme has been around since melee. Don't get offended on black people's behalf because they love falco and they'll tell you they do lol
Like you yourself stated in a previous video, “Know thy stage.” Stadium is a blast and full of jank, but good thing it’s only a counterpick. I would also be fine with frozen stadium but when Nintendo sponsors a tournament or has anything to do with it, we can’t use UCF or 20XX, so there’s that.
Hey Asum, i know i’m a plethora of supporting compliments, as well, your content is awesome and you deserve it, but i just want to commend you on being to adapt your content in response to youtubes policy. Not only is your new content awesome, but it keeps me just as entertained and proud to be a melee player as your old stuff. Keep it up, i’ll be an avid fan forever
AsumSaus does an excellent job explaining Melee to people who don't play Melee, but he didn't say anything about what a counterpick stage is and why Pokemon Stadium is only allowed as one. I'm a bit confused.
one of my favorite matches is still S2J vs Lorde. It was a great set that showcased both players skill as Captain Falcon and went to an insane game 3 on Stadium. I can't think of a more hype way that match could've ended. I say keep Stadium
Why should we settle for stages with shadows under platforms that make it so you can't see tons of characters when we have the option otherwise? Not sure how pokemon stadium existing makes those things okay. The only reason we play pokemon is because it's been around forever and because nobody wants to remove an anti-floaty counterpick option
maybe you fall through the stage on the left side of the tree (i’m talking about the clip at 3:13) because as it transforms, the dirt patch (which rises a bit) can overlap the bottom of your collision box and if you are at the very very right of the white part where the ledge as it transforms when you walk to the right you’ll fall through? (sorry if it didn’t make sense my explaining is a little rusty and this can most certainly be wrong)
Melee: “This stage transforms and has multiple glitches, but heck it lets make it legal” Ultimate: “sorry the backgrounds kind of distracting can we ban it?”
@@100billionsubscriberswithn4 i wouldnt call it the background as much as the screen literally going blurry mid game. If you really mean the actusl backgrouns, then seriously, FD has worse backgrounds
3:18 I suspect it might have to do with the very high angle walls collision; it’s basically vertical, so the wall collision might push the floor collision point BELOW the floor before it gets checked. I’m not sure if this explains the leftmost area, but it does explain the tree and the tree roots on the right.
Pokémon Stadium has always been a favourite stage of mine, and I've always preferred the transformation's over Brawl's PS2 The normal layout is great, and I'm always down to play on this stage in any game, frozen or not
@@garygilbenson 😅 My girl does the same shit. But you shouldn't cage your speech with fear. If you're wrong, you're wrong. You fix it and move on. If others aren't willing to accept mistakes, their intolerance stains them and your willingness to listen will always be a virtue.
@@garygilbenson First, I literally said making a mistake is insignificant. And second, the awkward thing to do is to refer to a single person as "them."
At 2:08 my dude probably saw his opponent choose jigglypuff and thought "You don't want to actually play the video game? Fine guess I don't wanna play neither"
Stadium has been my favorite stage ever since I started competitive Melee. It's so perfect for the Marth/Fox matchup and the random BS I find not only hilarious, but also is a large part of Melee's identity that I don't ever want to go away
3:17 colision boxes: my theory for this stage is that the hitboxes clip though the tree, and then they just get crazy until they push you in a bigger spot than the li'll tree-clipping-spot: the nether. this also explains why in super smash bros, if you make a spesific set up in stage maker, and then walk in it, the caracter just dies for the same reason falco just clipped though. you can see the setup in a vid
I know im probably late with throwing out my opinion, but with the Zain clip I think what happens is when he gits lifted by the tree he drops back down onto back end of the ledge, when he steps forward it looks like he falls at the same point that you show YLink grabbing onto
VanbPwa dreamland is so shit the stage is too high and it’s too big the platforms are fucking shitty as fuck 9.5/10 it has a little something for everyone
I think the reason you clip is because the floor becomes uneven terrain when it switches, and maybe your model or collision box gets put underneath the floor due to the collision staying where it was instead of adjusting to the new ground. Either way, this video was super insightful.
Did you ever notice how every legal stage has fairly basic geometry? Maybe a character is forced out of bounds by moving at too high of a speed and landing on a point where complex geometry connects. For example, when you waveland, the momentum from your airdodge is carried over into sliding your character at an angle parallel to the angle the platform is at.This is true for any type of "grounded" surface. When you airdodge perfectly into the tree on stadium, my guess is that you land on the point where 2 collision boxes that are treated as ground and that causes your character to be pushed in the compound of both directions and likely with twice the speed of a normal waveland. The resulting force pushes your character through the collision and out of bounds. But maybe just airdodging is fast enough seeing as you're in freefall afterwards. I suspect that it may be the same when a character is knocked into one of these collision points and doesn't tech. The slide along the ground likely pushes you out of bounds.
kinda funny how back when this vid was initially uploaded, there was a "debate" on freezing stadium, and thanks to incidental limitations of Slippi, now static stadium is just a thing
I never knew the ledges could be grabbed from inside the stage. That’s super cool. In brawl, clipping the stage seemed exclusively during a stage transformation, i had theorized that it had something to do with loading the different transformations in. Especially considering that the terrain for the edges was a different value than the stage transformations. I never took took deep of a look at it though, but perhaps it’s similar in melee. As an olimar main, the Terrain value was an important factor as it altered the pikmin pluck percentage of his neutral b. Since the terrain had to be modified during the transformations, maybe that relates to being able to clip through the floor. Since brawl sometimes had stages like frigate orpheon legal, adapting a strategy of just trying to be airborne during transformations was sufficient. Even though this maybe happened 1-2 times in my 200,000 play hours, it was still worrisome to some extent. That being said, I don’t think it merits removing. Pokémon stadium isn’t exactly my favorite stage, but it’s a smash staple.
Indie dev here, gaps between geometry can be thousandths of an inch so you might not see gaps unless you zoom or they just might not be visible because they're that small.
Remember the ECB, and how it's a large diamond shape? Well, I was wondering if it being compressed between two opposite walls would cause it to decide to be on the other side of one of them, such as with the tree on the fire transformation. As for the shine 2018 incident, it could be a very similar situation to the DK jungle glitch where the spacies can dthrow the marios into the stage itself. A lot of the mid-transformation jank could probably be attributed to the ECB not knowing how to react to shifting collision.
"this stage is a disaster"
"8/10, it has a little something for everyone"
Ah yes dunkey
It makes you really feel like the stage!
Melee in a nutshell, and that’s why we love it. Pokémon stage gives. But it also takes away
7.8/10
+ Great variety
- Too much jank
Shine license? What for?
Meanwhile... in Ultimate...
“I find the background of this stage distracting. Can we ban it?”
This stage has a slope bAn iT nOw
@@angrypepe7615 you mean the hype enablers?
Stalin ,exe You joke but some people legit play worse on those stages. Also motion sickness with Banjo's stage.
@@MeesterTweester i take stadium over bayos stage everyday
@@galaxypegasusrules13 epic
You know what I just realized? Their idea for a Fire-type based variant is like a building that burned down and is still on fire... and not like, a volcano, or something.
ah yes, my favorite element type: arson
It makes perfect sense, what do you think is harder? Putting a burning building or making a volcano? Volcanos are made by nature, buildings are made by man. Even if they use molten steel in a rock pit, they would have to keep it hot which would use alot of energy, or else it would harden when it cools down. Burning building is easy, make a building, put some gasoline on it, spark it up and we have a viable temporary stage. When the stage transforms simply water it down and make it airtight to store it.
Why do you assume that a person has intentionally burnt the building and it wasn’t a kitchen accident or something
It's meant to be Pokémon related so it's probably a situation that any house Pokémon could cause either intentionally or accidentally.
True. And it would've been cool if they could've utilized lava in some way, like on Planet Zebes from 64.
2:14
The way be the commentator goes, “Oh shit!”
*Samus pops back in*
“He’s back!”
Kills me
The angelic choir in the song is just the cherry on top
It's so weird that me that the Smash community hates almost any variation in their competitive stage layouts, and then this stage exists.
Kalo because when a game like Ultimate has 100+ stages you get to pick and choose so you don’t have to deal with bs like this. The worst it has is Lylat, which is nothing compared to Melee Pokémon Stadium
@@julian362 Found one
it's because mElEe Is A pErFeCt gAMe
RayOfSpeed who says melee is a perfect game
@@gdaxe3439 Melee players, traditionally
Broke: The floor is lava
Woke: The floor is not real
I love how nobody is commenting because there's nothing more to say.
@@toe_sucker_4165 i agree
Choke: the floor is not rea- SHHhh Shit!
Creeeamy melee: the floor ends all ur stocks instantly
@@axew3127 yes
i've been watching your videos for a long time and I only just recently realized that your name is "awesome sauce" and not "aysum samus"
yeah lmao this is what i thought for a while too, you will never see him the same again
Me as well.
Why did you do this
I would never get to know this lol
How are you meant to get awesome sauce from asumsaus wuuuuuuut
Meanwhile in Ultimate:
I see slopes, can we ban it?
Meanwhile in Ultimate:
Let’s legalize Lylat which is literally a slope in stage form
@@Extreme11 pokemon stadium: exista
Ultimate's competitive scene is strong, but too many people in that community are huge babies when it comes to banning stages for the tiniest of reasons.
@@Taktaagic I hate how few stages there are to pick, like I understand why a lot of them are banned but Unova felt like a really dumb ban
@@MrMan_18 and yet they still only have effectively 4
I'm loving these new type of vids, can't wait to hear more from the world's busiest melee nerd
*internet's
I wonder if people are gonna know where busiest melee nerd comes from
I mean melon has been featured on hbox's stream so maybe
Alula!
"Pokemon Stadium? It's not good." *explosion*
“The only legal Infinite is wobbling, right?”
Umm...should we tell him?
Yes.
He already knew
@@seanstange8704 What I was gonna say is about how Wobbling is pretty much banned now as a lot of majors and locals have agreed to get rid of it as more problems started showing up, and when people realized Icies don't actually need wobbling to be viable.
@@DrAnimePhD I mean yeah wobbling isn't needed for icies in melee, look at the guy who invented wobbling, he doesn't use it and still is really good
Trials_Of_ Death it’s honestly the only thing keeping Icies from being the most hype character. Wobbles himself has insane handoffs that are so clean and stylish. And yet...
A a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a
I like how the way you pronounce "busiest" synergizes perfectly with Falcos expression and body language.
Lmao
Made me want to kill myself.
@@watching726005 interesting!
"Synergizes"
You fucking stupid or something?
@@Ten_Thousand_Locusts dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/synergize
There you go buddy, took me like ten seconds to find. If you need to be an ass on the internet, do it right, ok? :)
AsumSaus: "One of the tournament legal stages you can just lose a stock in the middle of the stage by just falling through?"
Lylat: Wait, that's weird?
normally you don't really get compliments on the fluidity or style of a video's presentation, but watching this was an absolute joy.
I absolutely adore the theneedledrop parody, and your font and music choice was oddly fitting. amazing video dude.
Doofus ikr
“This allows Samus to tether on the inside of the tree and live”
“HOLY SHIT”
That got me 😂
That’s from Unreal Tournament. 😬
4:19 This is literally what every single attempt to dash off of a platform in Smash Brothers Ultimate feels like.
Funny detected ^
Not really but okay.
Oliver Xu
It's obviously hyperbole, but as an Ultimate Player, I hate how sticky the platforms feel.
@ILaserPeopleexaggeration is a common concept within humor
Here's my theory: it transforms inside the ring only, and it looks like a morph, but I think it actually just swaps them out on the final frame, and the morph is separate moving geometry. When it swaps, you are below the ground there as it is the lowest point, lower than the main stage, thus you fall through
2:02 Look at the Jumbotron. Now say hi to Samus.
I have a thought. So when coding objects and terrains, an important thing to consider when the object is being built is the angles, particularly whether the object has any sort of internal obtuse angles (stuff like a stars). This bug occurs due to most collision systems calling the vertex of a shape rather than the edge (as most shapes are generated using their vertex and the edges are a calculated component made from the vertex). This sort of bug is fixed in a bunch of different ways, but it usually has to come in a separate object generation function than the standard one. There's a chance that the function that they call to fix this internal obtuse angle doesn't work for those specific parts. My guess is that the tree that Samus can do her shenanigans had two internal obtuse angles, and the programmers called the function for one of them but not the other. Another guess is that the function they use to fix this bug is called whenever characters and items are in contact with an object marked as having an internal obtuse angle. So when Samus goes into her ball form, the game doesn't realize that she's there (possibly due to an oversight) and she clips through. The Marth clip seems like it could be a similar oversight with hurtbox and model collision with internal obtuse angles. If the code for detecting whether an item or character is in collision is based on the model while movement of characters is based on the hurtbox, then a conflict can occur if these don't line up perfect over a specific angle (this could apply to the Samus thing as well).
About Samus being a different object when transformed: while I don't know if that is true (but I think the player object doesn't despawn-- it just calls a ball model for the length of the dodge), the technique used (the wave dash) can be used by anyone, so potentially anyone can clip through the tree the way Samus did. The only difference is that Samus can use her swingshot to stick to the tree and climb back in.
So I would discard that one hypothesis
I was extremely happy when they announced Ultimate would let you freeze every stage.
Then Stadium somehow still lets you clip through the floor. Stay classy, Stadium.
Only Stadium 1 has that problem, but a part of me thinks that was intentional
Mr Ville there is absolutely no way it was intentional when they patched the harmless and fun Isabelle assist trophy glitch, sadly Nintendo doesn’t seem to understand what glitches have to be patched and which ones are fine and don’t hurt anyone
@@lightbrand_ Isabelle assist trophy *infinite*
clutchedbyanangel its not an infinite, infinites mean combos that bring the opponent to death with no way to escape
@@lightbrand_ i.e. jabbing infinitely until the target is in downsmash kill percent
"It's a Disaster"
...
"8/10"
this is the part where he talks about the tree of tranquility!
I believe that's the *Tree of Sorrow*
Nah, it’s the tree of advantage
Nicolas Girard-Doubleday, ehhhh h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h
The transformation animation itself could explain why players fall through the floor, as both the fire stage and original stage's collision could be conflicting with eachother during that moment. This is a pretty blind guess, however, as I don't know much about how Melee operates technically.
this channel has been on fire lately
0:56
I rewatched this video about 10 times and just noticed that skeleton dancing for the first time
I remember my first time watching competitive Melee, someone went to this stage, I'm pretty sure they did an infinite, and I asked myself, "Why the fuck is this stage legal?"
Some of the infinite are in reality pseudo infinites, You just need Wizzy sdi to get out
Egg, I really enjoyed your evaluation of the stage but the 5 minute rant on whether or not Jews deserve human rights was just uncalled for and extremely unprofessional.
Theres a meme I'm missing out on isn't there lol?
The intro was an Anthony Fantano reference. In Fantano’s comment section, stuff like this is commonplace
@@ayyOrca Fanthony Antanientio
AltsumRightsaus
asumthony saustano
Melee Pokemon Stadium described in six words:
And you thought Lylat was bad.
To be fair, Lylat is bad.
It is.
(sees stadium)
Oh.
Water, ground, rock, floor clip, normal.
And you thought melee was bad*
1998SIMOMEGA that’s a joker thing. Not a stage thing
Yeah, I like having it around. Especially since there's already so little in the stage pool already. It's a good way to test a player's ability to improvise with random elements without the random being TOO swaying.
I like how he cut out the part of the first clip where the little kid says "Brawl is better".
Aside from that, I want this stage to be legal, hazards on, in smash ultimate. Stage list is way too dry as is.
Weird opinions man out.
tbh i've wanted Warioware legal since Day 1 but everyone's saying its jank and "too small" so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Current legal stages are boring AF, some different stages would make competitive much more fun to watch. Stadium, wario ware etc. The fact that slightly angled floors rule out stages in some cases is ridiculous
@Muse Suse Regrettably, custom stages are absurdly buggy and inconsistent. Even good ones.
I want frigate Orpheon to be legal, but I don't think the world is ready for that yet.
I see so many posts criticizing Ultimate's competitive scene; I have a simple solution. PLAY MELEE. Or play Project plus; it fixes everything that is wrong with Melee, and has it's own community with regular tournaments.
Ultimate at it's core is still a game catered to casual players, which is why there are so many limitations and ambiguities at tournament level. Ever since Brawl, Sakurai has made that a point in his development after seeing how Melee developed such a strong competitive scene.
The "competitive features" he added were after a cursory examination of the competitive Brawl scene in Japan. Brawl, NOT Melee, cuz Brawl was much more popular than Melee in Japan compared to the rest of the world (which makes sense as competitive Melee started in America) and the opinions of the Japanese are always gonna be considered before anyone else, being Nintendo. Note how in the first iteration of "For Glory" mode in Sm4sh, the "competitive versions" of every stage were FD, not also Battlefield. Why? Cuz FD is often the stage of preference in Japanese competitive Smash going back to Melee even. Even in Ultimate, the stuff you can do on platforms is so horrendous you should just stick to FD.
I see Hungrybox making his pleas to Nintendo over and over, but he might as well be talking to a brick wall.
Ultimate tournaments: "Noooo you can't legalize this stage! There's a tiny slope in the middle!"
Melee tournaments: "Haha fall through stage"
This is the content the melee community needs
Content from a melee player that calls out weird and/or bad parts of comp melee in order to change the community for the better is few and far between and I'm all for it.
@@harrylane4 Especially since there's recently a video shitting Ultimate's competitiveness as "broken". Having videos that shit on Melee's flaws fairly would balance that well. :P
@@mathunit1 But you can't though, because Melee fans would get all offended and scold the content creator for discriminating their precious game, then proceed to shit on Brawl and Ultimate because I guess that's allowed.
@@EX-MartialEmpress9 wait... I thought we all admitted melee was broken from the start?
@@90sNath It's best described as a car crash
It is an absolute dumpster fire but you just can't look away because something about it just calls for your attention
Other stages: banned for too much variation and exploitable geometry
Stadium: completely legal, with included exploitable geometry and too much variation
Well, stadium doesn't have specific hazards that ruin competitive play like corneria or green greens (previously legal counterpicks)
@@TDG386 except fucky geometry that would make any other stage illegal
Other stages are banned for random hazards and because they allow for degenerate gameplay like multishining into the blastzone or just running away from slower characters. Stadium has random transformations, but they are shown in advance and not really hazardous. And sure, the rock and tree promote passive gameplay, but they only last as long as that transformation does, so you can't really stall out the match. Falling through the stage is obviously stupid, but rare.
The fact of the matter is that Melee is in desperate need of viable stages, and Stadium's un-transformed state is one of the best stage arrangements in the game. Frozen Stadium would be the perfect solution, but big bad Nintendo doesn't like mods, so we just have to deal. Everyone already knows Melee is jank, so I guess people would rather just look past Stadium's flaws for the sake of having one more legal stage.
but wheres the "scary melee" video
i wish i still had the link
Lookup archivesaus. All his videos are archived there
@@frankiewimbish1117 i dont think even archivesaus has scary melee
Comp sci student here! I think I have a pretty good guess.
Often times in a lot of games, there flat out doesn't HAVE to be a gap in order for a clip to happen. If a character is crushed between 2 or more solid objects at an angle where they can't escape, and those objects aren't programmed to be affected by the character themselves, the character will just clip through at least one of those objects. It's usually the consequence of a physics engine that attempts to emulate the concept of "every action has an equal and opposite reaction", applying it to some things (the characters), but not others (the trees). The stationary tree grips the character tight enough that it would crush someone in real life. The tree can't be affected by the force of the character, but the character is pushed in multiple contradictory directions by the tree, and it's not programmed to react to being crushed other than "get pushed in x direction by object". So whichever force is more powerful for one reason or another (be it angle or dev preference) pushes the character in that direction. The direction these characters are being pushed happens to be beyond the collision barrier of the tree.
Asumthony Saustano!! I'm giving this a strong 9 to a Light 10 on this!
Seems to me like there’s a reason it’s a counterpick stage. Falling through the stage is a bit much, but giving other characters access to infinite combos through its weird shifting geometry is interesting.
Got say dude, lovin the new content. I’m glad you’re back
3:16 probably the shape of the terrain causes collision detection to fail, it is really difficult to simulate this kind of physics with multiple strange angles, more technically it probably happens because the collision box for the character collides with multiple things at the same time, you need to choose a behavior for when you collide with an obstacle, often you simply move the character back by a vector equal to the normal of the obstacle in the collision point so that if you would go past a wall you just end up against it, but in some cases this can cause you to collide with another shape, if this last shape has the correct angle this process will repeat entering a feedback loop that ends with your character on the other side of the wall, so you need edge cases for this kind of stuff but doing all edge cases is almost imposible, which is why you can often go out of bounds in games mainly moving onto terrain with collision geometry with odd angles and why most platform games use grids and try to avoid diagonal platforms, this isn't that bad, doing this right is hard, think about it, nintendo is one of the biggest game developers but you still can go out of bounds in mario odyssey
In S2J's video, I'm all for allowing Frozen Stadium.
But then again, shenanigans are always a blast.
I know not all melee players think this way but a lot of them don't seem to like the shenanigans of smash ultimate but will look the other way when it comes to things like pokemon stadium, just how it seems to come across is all
change ur profile pic to confuse all the melee fans, I see u everywhere in the comments section
watching this is depressing now that stadium is frozen in most tournament rulesets and on slippi
great vid asumsaus but that part about black people only playing falco was kinda iffy
Wait, when was that? If it's the intro, I probably missed the reference lol
@@spaghettiking653 4:20
Fantano memes in my asumsaus comment section? It's more likely than you think
@dairycans don't be a little snowflake about it. That meme has been around since melee. Don't get offended on black people's behalf because they love falco and they'll tell you they do lol
Jordan Carr Hey you, stop being a snowflake, hey you, stop being offended lolololol
10/10, a perfect disaster of a stage. Would play in tournament
Like you yourself stated in a previous video, “Know thy stage.” Stadium is a blast and full of jank, but good thing it’s only a counterpick. I would also be fine with frozen stadium but when Nintendo sponsors a tournament or has anything to do with it, we can’t use UCF or 20XX, so there’s that.
Adapt lol
4:03 the real question is: does grabbing the wrong side of a ledge prevent your opponent from grabbing the correct side? Unpunishable ledgehogging?
That a good question
Hey Asum, i know i’m a plethora of supporting compliments, as well, your content is awesome and you deserve it, but i just want to commend you on being to adapt your content in response to youtubes policy. Not only is your new content awesome, but it keeps me just as entertained and proud to be a melee player as your old stuff. Keep it up, i’ll be an avid fan forever
AsumSaus does an excellent job explaining Melee to people who don't play Melee, but he didn't say anything about what a counterpick stage is and why Pokemon Stadium is only allowed as one. I'm a bit confused.
Not a Melee player, but I think the player who loses each match gets to pick the stage for the next match, and this is called counterpicking.
TFW, I just found Daddy pig staring at me in the ending transition
This stage being frozen is the downfall of humanity
one of my favorite matches is still S2J vs Lorde. It was a great set that showcased both players skill as Captain Falcon and went to an insane game 3 on Stadium. I can't think of a more hype way that match could've ended. I say keep Stadium
“I think the random stage layouts give tournament play a nice change of pace, and it keeps players on their toes”
Let me introduce you to casuals
2:00 I haven't laughed that hard for an entire minute in a very long time, thank you.
1:56
WAIT HOLD ON
SAMUS CAN TETHER THE WALL?!
WHY DID I NEVER KNOW THIS?!
Imagine arguing about stage slants and 'distracting backgrounds' in smash ultimate when melee has this garbage in tournaments.
Slants and backgrounds and even foreground are fine none of them are jank or oversentralizing
melee has to work with what it has
I don't know why unova isn't universal
bad lighting, third biplat, weird slopes that can mess with teleport recoveries would be my guesses
Why should we settle for stages with shadows under platforms that make it so you can't see tons of characters when we have the option otherwise? Not sure how pokemon stadium existing makes those things okay. The only reason we play pokemon is because it's been around forever and because nobody wants to remove an anti-floaty counterpick option
I'm just surprised that the capt falcon at 2:41 managed to react to the random shit lol
The fact that the entire game is tournament legal is baffling
2:14 Samus tapping into 1% of her lore accurate capabilities.
Hot take: make every stage legal, and have them set to random. Let chaos and stage hazards reign
Hey! AsumSaus, Michael here!
I loved this video, really pleasant to watch. Youve clearly improved so much in video quality what the hell.
I kinda like the idea that there's actually a secret passage through the stage that can be entered through the tree.
could be gaps when switching between stadium variants, or could be that the poor stage geometry forces your player's collision box through the stage
Samus vented ඞ👀
@@WatchVidsMakeLists thankyou for replying to this 2 year old comment lol
@@RedImpost ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
dingdingding
dundun
I've heard that while the stage is in the middle of transitioning, that small gaps form in the stage that you can fall through
Yeah bro grsatd that tii
first glitch in the video
soupboy 10164 Are you ok? (Terry pun not intended) did you have a fucking stroke?
@@MIGU3L2K he was probably having a stroke of his dick whilst typing
maybe you fall through the stage on the left side of the tree (i’m talking about the clip at 3:13) because as it transforms, the dirt patch (which rises a bit) can overlap the bottom of your collision box and if you are at the very very right of the white part where the ledge as it transforms when you walk to the right you’ll fall through? (sorry if it didn’t make sense my explaining is a little rusty and this can most certainly be wrong)
Great vid AsumSauce, I really like the part where you said you’d totally clap falcons cheeks
0:56 I caught the skeleboi
This video reminds me why Pokemon Stadium will always be my favourite melee tournament stage, after years of competing. What a fucking masterpiece.
I love how when Plup falls through, he raises how eyebrows, but S2J doesn't react at all and relentlessly dairs him through the stage.
Melee: “This stage transforms and has multiple glitches, but heck it lets make it legal”
Ultimate: “sorry the backgrounds kind of distracting can we ban it?”
To be fair, the background being too distracting is a huge issue on the Bayonetta stage.
@@100billionsubscriberswithn4 i wouldnt call it the background as much as the screen literally going blurry mid game. If you really mean the actusl backgrouns, then seriously, FD has worse backgrounds
@@BappO-is-me I wouldn't know, omega stages are a thing so why would I ever play FD?
@@100billionsubscriberswithn4 because they’re not legal. Somehow.
2:35 You know the answer is obscure if you don't see Practical TAS come out of nowhere and re-elaborate on the topic.
0:19 "until game two" graphic shows after game 2
3:18 I suspect it might have to do with the very high angle walls collision; it’s basically vertical, so the wall collision might push the floor collision point BELOW the floor before it gets checked. I’m not sure if this explains the leftmost area, but it does explain the tree and the tree roots on the right.
Pokémon Stadium has always been a favourite stage of mine, and I've always preferred the transformation's over Brawl's PS2
The normal layout is great, and I'm always down to play on this stage in any game, frozen or not
i love the delivery at 4:03
its so dry and real after hearing them speak with a calm tone the whole time its great
You mean "after hearing him?"
@@echo.romeo. Man I don’t Fuckin Know
I usually say them by default to be considerate
better safe than sorry
@@garygilbenson 😅 My girl does the same shit. But you shouldn't cage your speech with fear. If you're wrong, you're wrong. You fix it and move on. If others aren't willing to accept mistakes, their intolerance stains them and your willingness to listen will always be a virtue.
@@echo.romeo. you act like getting someone's pronouns wrong kills their grandma or something i'm just trying to avoid an awkward moment bro
@@garygilbenson First, I literally said making a mistake is insignificant. And second, the awkward thing to do is to refer to a single person as "them."
Literally was watching fantano, then click on this video and
Yeah
At 2:08 my dude probably saw his opponent choose jigglypuff and thought
"You don't want to actually play the video game? Fine guess I don't wanna play neither"
Stadium has been my favorite stage ever since I started competitive Melee. It's so perfect for the Marth/Fox matchup and the random BS I find not only hilarious, but also is a large part of Melee's identity that I don't ever want to go away
I’ve invented a drinking game, every time asumsaus pronounces Pokémon like poke-EE-mon, I take a shot, I am now dead due to alcohol poisoning
6:38
And so nothing of value was transferred to Ultimate
3:17 colision boxes: my theory for this stage is that the hitboxes clip though the tree, and then they just get crazy until they push you in a bigger spot than the li'll tree-clipping-spot: the nether. this also explains why in super smash bros, if you make a spesific set up in stage maker, and then walk in it, the caracter just dies for the same reason falco just clipped though. you can see the setup in a vid
You forgot to add, "y'all know this is just my opinion, right?" into the description
Your name is great with this lmao
@Keaton Harris please indicate that you are joking.
The peppa pig evangelion outro backdrop at 10% opacity is based
I know im probably late with throwing out my opinion, but with the Zain clip I think what happens is when he gits lifted by the tree he drops back down onto back end of the ledge, when he steps forward it looks like he falls at the same point that you show YLink grabbing onto
I love how S2J stomp confirms Plup at 2:43 without any reaction until the game is over haha
Yeah, that Pokémon Stadium stage? It's *not good.*
GammaDelta FD review: I can feel a strong 9 to a 10, on this stage.
Xertified you forgot “It has a little something for everyone”.
VanbPwa dreamland is so shit the stage is too high and it’s too big the platforms are fucking shitty as fuck
9.5/10 it has a little something for everyone
VanbPwa we’re talking about Fantano, not Dunkey
@@HJHawley7677 Sue me
I think the reason you clip is because the floor becomes uneven terrain when it switches, and maybe your model or collision box gets put underneath the floor due to the collision staying where it was instead of adjusting to the new ground. Either way, this video was super insightful.
Holy moly, that's a young Zain at 1:07
“It’s simple, just perform a *frame-perfect wavedash* at this exact spot.”
Did you ever notice how every legal stage has fairly basic geometry? Maybe a character is forced out of bounds by moving at too high of a speed and landing on a point where complex geometry connects. For example, when you waveland, the momentum from your airdodge is carried over into sliding your character at an angle parallel to the angle the platform is at.This is true for any type of "grounded" surface. When you airdodge perfectly into the tree on stadium, my guess is that you land on the point where 2 collision boxes that are treated as ground and that causes your character to be pushed in the compound of both directions and likely with twice the speed of a normal waveland. The resulting force pushes your character through the collision and out of bounds. But maybe just airdodging is fast enough seeing as you're in freefall afterwards. I suspect that it may be the same when a character is knocked into one of these collision points and doesn't tech. The slide along the ground likely pushes you out of bounds.
0:04 more like melee BIRD
kinda funny how back when this vid was initially uploaded, there was a "debate" on freezing stadium, and thanks to incidental limitations of Slippi, now static stadium is just a thing
"falcomon stadiumbardi"
I never knew the ledges could be grabbed from inside the stage. That’s super cool.
In brawl, clipping the stage seemed exclusively during a stage transformation, i had theorized that it had something to do with loading the different transformations in. Especially considering that the terrain for the edges was a different value than the stage transformations. I never took took deep of a look at it though, but perhaps it’s similar in melee. As an olimar main, the Terrain value was an important factor as it altered the pikmin pluck percentage of his neutral b. Since the terrain had to be modified during the transformations, maybe that relates to being able to clip through the floor. Since brawl sometimes had stages like frigate orpheon legal, adapting a strategy of just trying to be airborne during transformations was sufficient. Even though this maybe happened 1-2 times in my 200,000 play hours, it was still worrisome to some extent. That being said, I don’t think it merits removing. Pokémon stadium isn’t exactly my favorite stage, but it’s a smash staple.
The pokemon stage changing and randall on yoshi's is fun.
This is melee. No fun allowed
0:28
Three years later, I finally noticed the "DO NOT READ THIS"
XD
Great vid, but the part in the middle where you start reading from Mein Kampf is kinda questionable :|
Indie dev here, gaps between geometry can be thousandths of an inch so you might not see gaps unless you zoom or they just might not be visible because they're that small.
0:30 oops...
Remember the ECB, and how it's a large diamond shape? Well, I was wondering if it being compressed between two opposite walls would cause it to decide to be on the other side of one of them, such as with the tree on the fire transformation. As for the shine 2018 incident, it could be a very similar situation to the DK jungle glitch where the spacies can dthrow the marios into the stage itself.
A lot of the mid-transformation jank could probably be attributed to the ECB not knowing how to react to shifting collision.
2:20 i literally choked on my spit
That was such a good video, very interesting and very good background music choice
7:00 what the actual fuck is that backround