In snooker, push shots and double contacts are not allowed. This particular double contact was performed by Stuart Bingham in a recent 2024 World Championship semi-final. The referee Marcel Eckhardt was oblivious. There is a very simple formula that all snooker referees can use to identify a double contact: Quite simply if (A) the distance the cue travels through the white is greater than (B) the distance between the two balls then it has to be a double contact. This is because the white will always slow down when it meets the object ball and this allows the cue to catch up for a second contact. (This all happens in a split second of course.) In this example, A is slightly greater than the width of a snooker ball and B is around the width of a ball.. so this is not particularly blatant. But there is a clear 'smoking gun' clue that gives it all away. The white gives a little jump at impact. This is because of the second contact. The white back-spins to the side and over the angled shaft of the cue (ramp effect). (The first contact sent the white towards the red.) For me, this is an obvious double contact. And the second contact is a push (cue contacts white exactly when white contacts the object ball) which is usually the case in a double contact situation.. The object ball would not go in the pocket otherwise. The timing would be off. *The 'very fine edge' loophole* From the rule book: "Where the cue-ball and the object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.” Loophole: As there is no definition in the rule book for a 'very fine edge' the player can define it himself in any way that suits him. So, technically speaking, it is only a foul if the referee says it is (but in this case the referee doesn't seem to be even aware that anything is amiss). This video is for educational purposes only.
Doesn't look like a push shot to me. If you play it at 25% speed it looks as if the white jumped *before* it hit the red, perhaps due to the angle he played the shot. It's a terrible camera angle to judge it from though
Ahh, it's still very hard to tell at 25%. You're right though: Cueing down can make the ball jump alright. But usually it makes it spin back. It all depends on where you hit it and even with the bad angle we can see that he hits it below centre (centre-striking or above to make it jump, below centre for screw).. and the way the white travels is consistent with that, imo.. And it sounds dodgy as well.. It's certainly a double contact because of the jump, imo. We'll have to call CSI 😅
The white jump because it is wedged between the cue and the cloth, this doesn't mean that the cue didn't strike the white a second time on the follow-through
@@PointNemo9 I understand what you're saying alright.. but if that happened then there would be no action (spin ) on the white.. it wouldn't even travel 12 inches.. and the red wouldn't even reach the pocket.. Looking at it again, the way the balls react is very much consistent with a double contact where the second contact is a push shot. It's definitely not blatant like some of them can be. But that little jump.. that's the 'smoking gun' imo.. I've seen this type of shot a good few times already. When the cue is angled and the player puts screw on it, the white always gives a little jump.. because it's rolling over the angled shaft like it's a ramp. He plays it very well in fairness, lands perfect on the blue.
No push. There is enough angle on the shot to get the cue ball away from the cue. The ball jumps cause he is cueing down on the ball... To avoid the push shot.
Thanks for reading my pinned comment. Even at the most acutist of angles, the white will always slow down when it meets the object ball.. and the cue will always catch up for the second contact (if A is greater than B that is). Whether it is a push shot or not all depends on the timing of the second contact between the cue-tip and the cue-ball. There's a very easy way to prove it's a push: Quite simply, in this situation, if the red ball goes in the hole then it's a push. If the timing was off then it would throw the red off line. And cueing down on the ball can cause it to jump alright but it can also cause it to back-spin. It all depends on where you hit it; at or above the centre line to make it jump and below it for backspin. Stuart appears to hit below the centre line. The ball jumps because it rolls over the angled shaft of the cue (ramp effect) when it spins to the side. It is a very close call alright but the jump gives it away imo. Great bit of skill by Ball-run 🙂
@@PatrickRyan147 Why are you so dead-set on shouting "push shot, push shot"? If you're raising the butt of the cue, the tension between the cue and the table will act as a catapult and will make it jump. If you combine this with aiming below center, it will both jump AND screw back. As professional players regularly demonstrate, they aren't mutually exclusive. Like OP said, in this situation there was enough angle and space that the cue didn't necessarily have to strike the cue ball again, because it travelled in 3D and on a different line as opposed to what you're acting like - a strictly horizontal straight shot.
Loophole: Believe it or not, you're actually allowed to do a push shot if you believe the white is hitting a "very fine edge" of the object ball.. and as there is no definition in the rule book for a "very fine edge" then it can literally mean anything to Stuart. So he doesn't need to declare it 😅
@@PatrickRyan147 Basically to perform a push shot the cue has to be on the same line as the cue ball and object ball. But this is obviously a matter of perspective. The referee can call a push shot or not.
I know you mean well with all your work on push shots/double hits but I don't think this clears anything up. I'm still saying that in many cases it'shard for the referee to call and in some cases half the referees/internet punters will say foul and the other half will say fair shot.
But it's not hard for the referees to call a push (double contact). They just think it is. It's actually remarkably easy because most push shots are blatant AH. My technique (A>B=double contact, see pinned comment) would help all referees catch most of them. This particular video is a good example of one that is not so blatant and would be quite difficult to call were it not for the little jump the white gives at impact and the exaggerated travel of the object ball.
@@PatrickRyan147 I prefer your definitive versions of the official rules than terms such as exagerated travel. All this "you can tell by the sound" - not necessarily introduced by you - have got nothing to do with anything. For me, it's still a grey area rather than black and white.
@@PatrickRyan147 I don't think we are going to agree on things Patrick, although to be honest I think that generally we'd agree on whether a certain shot was a foul or not. Regardless of what any of us think about any specifics, I think it's fair to say that push shot/double hits cause more problems than other fouls and RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY some referees would make decisions based on who played the shot and not the rules. I hope that doesn't sound patronising Patrick, it definitely wasn't meant to and I know that you know your onions.
@gurney2931 *If the distance the cue travels through the white is greater than the distance between the two balls then it's a double contact foul.* This simple equation will work for at least 90% of all pushes. I'll leave it at that. I can tell you're a gentleman so I won't 'push' it any further 😊
I'd say they probably did notice but they didn't call it because (1) it would be unprofessional to accuse a player of cheating and (2) it's not their job to call fouls..
In snooker, push shots and double contacts are not allowed. This particular double contact was performed by Stuart Bingham in a recent 2024 World Championship semi-final. The referee Marcel Eckhardt was oblivious.
There is a very simple formula that all snooker referees can use to identify a double contact: Quite simply if (A) the distance the cue travels through the white is greater than (B) the distance between the two balls then it has to be a double contact. This is because the white will always slow down when it meets the object ball and this allows the cue to catch up for a second contact. (This all happens in a split second of course.)
In this example, A is slightly greater than the width of a snooker ball and B is around the width of a ball.. so this is not particularly blatant. But there is a clear 'smoking gun' clue that gives it all away. The white gives a little jump at impact. This is because of the second contact. The white back-spins to the side and over the angled shaft of the cue (ramp effect). (The first contact sent the white towards the red.) For me, this is an obvious double contact. And the second contact is a push (cue contacts white exactly when white contacts the object ball) which is usually the case in a double contact situation.. The object ball would not go in the pocket otherwise. The timing would be off.
*The 'very fine edge' loophole*
From the rule book: "Where the cue-ball and the object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.” Loophole: As there is no definition in the rule book for a 'very fine edge' the player can define it himself in any way that suits him. So, technically speaking, it is only a foul if the referee says it is (but in this case the referee doesn't seem to be even aware that anything is amiss).
This video is for educational purposes only.
Doesn't look like a push shot to me. If you play it at 25% speed it looks as if the white jumped *before* it hit the red, perhaps due to the angle he played the shot. It's a terrible camera angle to judge it from though
Ahh, it's still very hard to tell at 25%. You're right though: Cueing down can make the ball jump alright. But usually it makes it spin back. It all depends on where you hit it and even with the bad angle we can see that he hits it below centre (centre-striking or above to make it jump, below centre for screw).. and the way the white travels is consistent with that, imo.. And it sounds dodgy as well.. It's certainly a double contact because of the jump, imo. We'll have to call CSI 😅
The white jump because it is wedged between the cue and the cloth, this doesn't mean that the cue didn't strike the white a second time on the follow-through
@@PointNemo9 I understand what you're saying alright.. but if that happened then there would be no action (spin ) on the white.. it wouldn't even travel 12 inches.. and the red wouldn't even reach the pocket..
Looking at it again, the way the balls react is very much consistent with a double contact where the second contact is a push shot.
It's definitely not blatant like some of them can be. But that little jump.. that's the 'smoking gun' imo.. I've seen this type of shot a good few times already. When the cue is angled and the player puts screw on it, the white always gives a little jump.. because it's rolling over the angled shaft like it's a ramp.
He plays it very well in fairness, lands perfect on the blue.
No push. There is enough angle on the shot to get the cue ball away from the cue. The ball jumps cause he is cueing down on the ball... To avoid the push shot.
Thanks for reading my pinned comment. Even at the most acutist of angles, the white will always slow down when it meets the object ball.. and the cue will always catch up for the second contact (if A is greater than B that is).
Whether it is a push shot or not all depends on the timing of the second contact between the cue-tip and the cue-ball. There's a very easy way to prove it's a push: Quite simply, in this situation, if the red ball goes in the hole then it's a push. If the timing was off then it would throw the red off line.
And cueing down on the ball can cause it to jump alright but it can also cause it to back-spin. It all depends on where you hit it; at or above the centre line to make it jump and below it for backspin. Stuart appears to hit below the centre line. The ball jumps because it rolls over the angled shaft of the cue (ramp effect) when it spins to the side.
It is a very close call alright but the jump gives it away imo. Great bit of skill by Ball-run 🙂
@@PatrickRyan147 Why are you so dead-set on shouting "push shot, push shot"?
If you're raising the butt of the cue, the tension between the cue and the table will act as a catapult and will make it jump. If you combine this with aiming below center, it will both jump AND screw back. As professional players regularly demonstrate, they aren't mutually exclusive.
Like OP said, in this situation there was enough angle and space that the cue didn't necessarily have to strike the cue ball again, because it travelled in 3D and on a different line as opposed to what you're acting like - a strictly horizontal straight shot.
I don't think it was as stu would have said I'm sure.
Loophole: Believe it or not, you're actually allowed to do a push shot if you believe the white is hitting a "very fine edge" of the object ball.. and as there is no definition in the rule book for a "very fine edge" then it can literally mean anything to Stuart. So he doesn't need to declare it 😅
@@PatrickRyan147 Basically to perform a push shot the cue has to be on the same line as the cue ball and object ball. But this is obviously a matter of perspective. The referee can call a push shot or not.
@@PeterVerbeekExactly.. so it's only a foul if the referee calls it.. but he's totally unaware of the situation I reckon..
@@PatrickRyan147 Therefore the player should be calling a foul on himself. Besides, a player can usually feel a push shot, especially the pro's.
@@PeterVerbeek🙂 see loophole ⬆️
I know you mean well with all your work on push shots/double hits but I don't think this clears anything up. I'm still saying that in many cases it'shard for the referee to call and in some cases half the referees/internet punters will say foul and the other half will say fair shot.
But it's not hard for the referees to call a push (double contact). They just think it is. It's actually remarkably easy because most push shots are blatant AH. My technique (A>B=double contact, see pinned comment) would help all referees catch most of them.
This particular video is a good example of one that is not so blatant and would be quite difficult to call were it not for the little jump the white gives at impact and the exaggerated travel of the object ball.
@@PatrickRyan147 I prefer your definitive versions of the official rules than terms such as exagerated travel. All this "you can tell by the sound" - not necessarily introduced by you - have got nothing to do with anything. For me, it's still a grey area rather than black and white.
@@PatrickRyan147 I don't think we are going to agree on things Patrick, although to be honest I think that generally we'd agree on whether a certain shot was a foul or not. Regardless of what any of us think about any specifics, I think it's fair to say that push shot/double hits cause more problems than other fouls and RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY some referees would make decisions based on who played the shot and not the rules. I hope that doesn't sound patronising Patrick, it definitely wasn't meant to and I know that you know your onions.
@gurney2931
*If the distance the cue travels through the white is greater than the distance between the two balls then it's a double contact foul.*
This simple equation will work for at least 90% of all pushes.
I'll leave it at that.
I can tell you're a gentleman so I won't 'push' it any further 😊
Good call.. push shot.. Ken Doherty and JV didn't even notice
I'd say they probably did notice but they didn't call it because (1) it would be unprofessional to accuse a player of cheating and (2) it's not their job to call fouls..
Yup, the white definitely jumped.. that's a double contact right there.. this particular referee seems to be appearing in a lot of your videos 🤔
Not his fault really. He just hasn't been trained properly on them, doesn't know what to look out for 🫤
clearly not a push shot
Please read my pinned comment and then tell me what you don't agree with. I'm here to help..
No push there good reffing
Please read my pinned comment and tell me what you don't understand. I'm here to help..
No push shot. Fake news. Carry on with your day.
Thanks for your opinion 😅
Please read my pinned comment and let me know what you don't understand or agree with. I'm here to help..
The ref wouldn't of noticed, after all watching Jones, would make anyone fall asleep.
No push shot at all
Please read my pinned comment and then tell me what you don't understand. I'm here to help..