Katana Vs Rapier, a reply to
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- A reply to my mate Matt. As with all discourse, I ask you to look at the validity of the components of each argument, both contain truth.:)
If you want to come try one of our 13 plus lessons each week, including the aforementioned Girard Thibault send an email to enquiry@londonlongsword.com
And for the at least one pedant who is going to go “nhhhhh you are holding your rapier upside down, Thibault shows it” shut the f up. The hand is just as safe, I care not for your sausage talk.
Thibault rapier made by @www.destrezani...
It would be great if you do a full demonstration so we can clearly see how the techniques work.
Agreed! Easton vs Rawlings match up?
@@batteredwarrior would be a fascinating one
I'd love to see something like this.
need to see like a proper duel between a master of both.
th-cam.com/video/Y6RGw3aYPkc/w-d-xo.html
Thibault is only slightly dead?!? Then we should go see Miracle Max to get a chocolate coated miracle pill now! 😂
#PrincessBride
Same thought!
Thanks for this reply! It's always a pleasure learning from you.
Once I learned how to properly parry a Longsword with a thinner sword, I've had a lot of fun matches of Longsword vs Sport Foil.
I like to tell my students that this is the act of "catching with soft hands" almost like hockey, rugby, baseball, et cetera where rather than catching it with a hard boundary, you soften the blow with angle of incidence and applying firm but not too hard pressure against it.
For a second after you were talking about swords breaking I thought you were about to apologize for swearing... then I remembered who was making the video 😂
😅😂
I say this with a spotless record of heterosexuality: You, sir, are such a charming man that even though I had absolutely no interest in swords or any weapon at all, for a while now I have been compelled to listen to you talk for however long whenever you post a video. Here we go
the fact that you had to specify "no homo" in such a wordy way makes this sound pretty sus bro
@@maycontainnuts3127 it's a seinfeld reference
Now, I will be honest, I am not a great fencer, and have limited experience with kendo and HEMA, but isn't the main advantage of the rapier it's range? I mean, the way you describe it, if I understand it correctly (with controlling the sword and dissipating the force), is essentially letting the opponent close enough to you for his sword to now also be in range? I mean, I would do exactly as you describe, if you manage to control my sword, but I get past the point of your rapier, I can still do a fair bit of damage by using the pommel, or just nullify any kind of advantage your range has by literally going into a grapple and removing the swords alltogether, reducing it to a brawl?
Or am I misunderstanding something here - and you somehow still keep the distance and the rapier point between you and your opponent? Sorry for a dumb question, not super experienced with this...
It seems to me like receiving an attack while pointing at it significantly reduces your "protected area", making it much more difficult and much riskier to pull off in full speed combat.
Am I understanding this correctly? And, if so, does that mean that delivering strong two-handed blows (with the thickness, tip-heaviness and rigidity of a katana no less) against a rapier can be an effective tactic to either break the sword or force the opponent into either retreating (either himself or the blade) to protect his sword or employing riskier counters, thus being overall an effective strategy to put pressure and attempt to overcome the reach advantage?
A final observation I will make is that the katana's edge hardness, while it will result in chips and cracks at the edge, should also allow it to bite into (and more effectively deliver stress to) softer blades, while still not being too prone to starting a blade-deep stress fracture in the katana itself (in historical, antique warring states nihonto, the hamon/high hardness section of the edge is very narrow, much narrower than in later Edo or modern pieces).
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Your mustache is worthy of your ancestors.
I am by no means an expert on this subject but I have done some rapier fencing against someone using a katana and an effective strategy I have found is targeting the hands as katana have very little hand protection and are quite accessible even for a novice like myself. Note that my opponent is a very skilled fencer who has been practicing rapier, longsword and katana for many years. The lack of hand protection is definitely something that can be exploited by the extended range of a rapier and it’s quite effective to poke at the exposed hands of the katana user.
Only works if you can't do proper blade-into-blade binds. You see, actually sharpened blades somewhat "stick" to each other when they collide (not to mention that they are heavier than most trainling swords as well).
Every time you try to do that, a katana user should bind and step forward, which can be hard to deal with for a rapier user. He should not have any problem keeping up with your blade and maintaining mechanical advantage in a bind because of the leverage the two-handed grip provides.
Or, he could just give your blade a good strong beat (which is the scenario this video describes). And try to exploit that.
Point being, although you have a range advantage with a rapier, that doesn't mean you can just attack from a distance without risk - unless the guy with a katana is being too passive and just letting you play out your advantage in range.
It should be noted, if Katana user doesn't have enough hand protection, it means they CHOOSE to. There always existed easy acces to large size tsubas, but considering katana are mostly self-defense weapons being convenient and not intrusive while wearing it was priority. As for battlefield situation maybe many samurai did use bigger tsuba if they ended using blades after loosing main weapon but more likely they just use kote instead.
@@TheTenzen12 "if Katana user doesn't have enough hand protection, it means they CHOOSE to"
There are many reasons. For instance, close-range draw cuts being an important part of katana repertoire: a big tsuba/crossguard would get in the way, potentially get entangled with opponent's armor or clothes, etc.
@@ayrnovem9028 Yes I don't disagree with what you said. Doesn't change that Nozarashi tsubas existed, were avaible and were used by some.
@@TheTenzen12 Averages are more what we have to go off for discussions like these.
I broke a Rapier with a Rapier with a hard parry, striking-out-below against a low thrust. Always potential for freak accidents… 😂
I've broken a Longsword doing something similar came forward with a simple strike opponent expected something else and blocked with the flat about halfway up the blade. Chipped the dull blade of my sparring sword and broke his just below where our blades met. It was crazy. Tried to recreate it later because we were curious, and couldn't.
Too much math for my weak brain! But well done!
That was an Awesome demonstration and articulation of the mechanics and Swordsmanship of LA Verdadera Destreza. I completely agree with your Satatementⁿ. You have some really nice cup hilt btw!!!
I'm here from Matt, learning more. TY to both of you. 👍I've never fenced, just battojutsu. This is totally different. Even working a hanbo is different 😂
fascinating reply. would love to see some actual physical demo's of the moves spoken about. Also, I kinda think the katana, while certainly a 2 handed sword, has some conspicuous differences from western 2 handed swords - reach in particular. The leverage afforded such relatively short two handers makes me a bit leery of attempting to recieve it on the point and have any chance of manipulating it thereby. Might help to see the issue illustrated with real persons crossing real sidearms in real time.
Is that a short or long 2 handed sword?
@@LondonLongswordAn Edo period katana would generally be shorter than one during the Sengoku Period.
Edo period katanas are definitely much shorter, specifically to impose rules on the how long can a samurai wield his and it became popular as a personal weapon.
Much longer katanas (those of tachi lengths) were used as primary weapons until Japanese warfare became industrialized and all sides needed a weapon that took less time to make and allowed for a much more rigid formation.
@@martytu20 Even a Tachi of of the sengoku jidai would be shorter then most European long swords let alone a katanas of the edo jidai.
Aesthetically & culturally Japanese blades are fascinating but at an obvious disadvantage to European equivalent blades.
Mind putting a side sword specifically court/dress sword against a 2 handed katana or even tachi is disingenuous comparison though the 1 handed court sword would still likely win.
A fairer comparison would be tuck, estoc, Panzerstecher or a polish Koncerz being accentually the same twohanded thrusting sword.
A rapier historically was very long 'long sword' with a complex hilt so stick a complex hilt on a tuck-estoc you get a real rapier.
A Tachi reaches bit over 35 inches as in 3 shaku before it is considered a Odachi that few got more then 5 shaku though Uesugi Kenshin personal guard had 6 shaku odachi=shy of 71.4 inches.
Do keep in mind Odachi are really great swords equivalents which across Europe German Zweihänder reach 85 inches.
Long sword is about 39-55 inches
while a tachi is about 27 9/16 to 31 1/2 inches maximum 35''
Tuck, estoc, Panzerstecher or a polish Koncerz you are talking up to 63-64'''s.
what people today call a rapier the past would call a side sword or heavy court-dress sword.
Spada da lato as in side swords average 41'' for 1 handed blade & hilt of 4 inches for hilt so 45 inches on average.
A side sword of Europe's maximum length is 51inches.
European blades were simply far longer on average mono homogenous spring tempered steel is 2 technologies those outside of Europe 'did not' possess!
Another note: the Japanese mounted European style cross guards on Japanese blades & not the other way around historically for a reason.
Look up Kyuu Guntou if curious!
@@ElkaPME I recommend you read my other comment to @martytu20 as he fell into the same misinterpretation as you both lack knowledge of traditional Europeans Arms!
I also have the luxury of being fluent in Japanese language due to my great grandfather unlike most with keen interest instructed by 2 military families of my mother & father in polemology=warfare studies which is basically an extinct practice todays politicized world.
It will only break if the rapier blade was very streesed with the accumulated damages on
For a second there I thought we had video proof of gremlins 😂 right if screen being Mr. Rollins there are some construction/roofing(?) men who look tiny 😂
I love the collegial tone and wish to stick to it as much as I can...but I am deeeeply unconvinced by most of this.
The point about the THS having the option to try and destroy the longsword is novel, and well made. no problem there, good stuff. It's a bit funny that you, the longsword enthusiast, seem to be overall arguing that the longsword is weaker than Easton reckons it.
Easton: "The rapier's attributes that give it the overwhelming advantage in this match are obviously its range, but less obviously how evasive it is, how quickly and easily it can disengage from contact and come back in and kill you, whether back or around. The biggest problem with this dash through the killzone is that it takes *lots of practice and probably some luck to maintain contact* with the rapier."
Rawlings: "So what I want to do is *hand the THS continuous contact* with my blade and I'm totally going to push him around via a contact point that's three feet from my wrist versus two feet from both his entire arms a foot apart, source trust me bro."
Easton: "Up close is where you want a cutting and/or physically short weapon like the THS, you have all kinds of fast effective options - fast stabs anywhere, cuts anywhere, half-swording... The tradeoff for any long weapon, but especially a thin and delicate one with a specialized grip like the rapier, is that you can have a minimum range inside which you can't stab."
Rawlings: "So if he gets in, I certainly don't want to, say, catch the blade as best I can with my excellent hand protection and try to wrestle, or leap past and get back out to range. Instead I will press close and do the single stab I can, which is vulnerable to the slightest blade control and takes ages if it's even physically possible given my arm and sword lengths."
You are making an assumption of what I think. All I have done, and the full scope of the video, is to offer the views held within it. It is not the scope of my knowledge nor the breadth of my opinions.
i love your facial hair thingy, where did you buy it?
Oh dear gods! I’ve only just seen that, how long has it been there? Does mother know… I think I may have sneezed out an Illithid.
Very thorough explanation. Makes sense to me. Like to see an actual visuals 'against', a person with a two handed longsword if there is a next time. Great video.
GREAT VID! Although I don't study rapier much the concepts here are similar to strategies I use with longsword. Maybe my interpretations are not as bonkers as I've been told 😂
Question...Why would you with the reach advantage allow your opponent to get within striking distance in the first place...keep the pointy end in his face and moving...even back up to keep that advantage
And remember: the other guy is about a head shorter on top of that.
I can see a katzbalger blade being easier to damage than a rapier blade, simply because it has much greater presence in the foible. So where as the katzbalger has a lot more mass projecting above the point of impact that really wants to stay where it is, resulting in possible structural failure, the rapier blade has much less so and would be more likely to simply be moved out of the way by the blow.
Meanwhile two burglars are doing their thing in the background.
Stole an entire roof!
@@LondonLongsword Cheeky basterds!
I'm a loner too mate. But it would have been great if you had a mate with you to demonstrate the counterstrokes etc. Cheers from New Zealand. Flaxen Saxon.
@3:08 some guys do a little peek-a-boo on the roofs to the right lolol
Whilst Tulwar weren’t double handed, there are plenty examples of them cutting through Prosser and W/S swords in the Indian Mutiny
Makes sense. I personally feel that in a strictly civilian setting, the rapier's greater reach gives it's user a big advantage over the Katana/Tachi. But....battlefield use... well, there is a reason why the Pappenheimer version of the rapier was shorter and sturdier, and even then, the majority of people who might carry a rapier in civilian life carried a "broadsword" in war. If I'm in Sengoku-Jidai armour, you can have as many inches in your spindly little pointy metal strip as you like. Like Mr Easton likes to say; "it's all down to context".
Also, there was shorter boarder swords with rapier hilts for ship fighting. Matt has even said himself that war is rough and tumble and rapiers aren't exactly rough and tumble swords.
It also depends on space, short stuff is good in confined space, pointy stuff too. A trench dagger is a shortened bayonet with often a punching hilt. I think japanese armor is good against arrows and slashes, less against people poking at the arms. (japanese armor has mostly poor quality arm pieces, dated helmet construction and only late introduction of plate cuirass)
As for sturdy: pikes can be cut too and should punch trough Sengoku-Jidai armor
@@2adamast Why do you think spears have to pierce Sengoku Jidai armor? There are many types, and I honestly doubt a spear is going through those made with riveted lames or even well made lamellar.
I don't get why the arm pieces would be bad either? The helmets are not that different in protection to contemporary European ones, especially momonari looks kinda like a cabasset. With a menpo and kabuto it would be pretty similar to having a bevor and sallet or something of that sort.
@@atom8248 _Kabuto, a helmet made from iron or leather plates (from 3 to over 100 plates) riveted together_ I think one or two plate helmets are superior to riveted stuff. Same with Kote (gauntlet), long metal strips on fabric are good against cuts, and the later addition of mail will improve that. but are not really stab resistant.
@@2adamast I'm not sure the riveted construction actually has a tangible effect on it's protectiveness. The plates overlap and on a helmet like zunari or momonari kabuto that is very robust and probably close to being the same as European helmets. There's accounts of them stopping bullets as well.
For the arms it all kinda depends on the setup. With a long tsubo sode (sode that wrap around the arm) that goes down to the elbows and the type of kote where the forearms are covered with three large plates you have plate almost over the entire arm, except for the inside of course. The kote could also have small plates over the entire shoulder and upper arm area acting like tsubo sode.
I don't really subscribe to the idea that rapiers and pikes would just go through the cuirass. Overlapping plates that are thickly lacquered are not easy to pierce, good luck trying to pierce yukinoshita-do.
Even an ashigaru's hardened rawhide armor would probably put up a fight against a rapier lol. Look at tod's workshop's video on boiled leather
I thought too that the idea of the rapier being broken by a Katana was to swiftly dismissed as not being something worth seriously considering when I had watched his video. I specifically had remembered hearing of blades braking off in bodies in some historical documentation, I've heard of it happening to both things like sword canes, as well as knives. In one account it was from a Vietnam veteran who had received from home a bowie knife, buck brand. during an attack in the night this soldier had an enemy enter his foxhole, and he stabbed him in the chest with the knife, despite being a thick and supposedly sturdy knife, it snapped off inside the guys chest near the handle.
Stainless steel knife I would guess. Spring steel I doubt would break so easily, but I’ve been wrong plenty.
@@helpdeskjnp Probably depends alot on how you block. The thing is with Matt's test a couple years is it was done with one guard, it just goes to show an outstreched will be moved aside before a blade breaks. I imagine trying to do a full, dead on halt of heavy weapon with a thin, long hilty heavy lever is alot more dangerous, especially with pre industrial era steel quality, basically a huge gamble.
Years ago someone took a longsword and gave a Rapier the hardest cut he could. The Rapier held with a straight thrust in carte by taking the hit on the forte. This is the 'textbook' way to deal with a cut, thrust into it.
Yes blades break but if your whole game plan is to break the blade...your getting stabbed, even if you take him with you.
@@jonathanh4443finally someone who isn't a katana/longsword zealot. I don't know what's going on with this channel, but the sword zealots are strong here. Unfortunately this video and the comments seem to make out that breaking a rapier would be easy, but from experience that means they would be swinginh at the blade, at distance. And with that in mind just step back and don't even let them hit the blade just keep moving it like a cat toy right before the strike hits. Kinda gotta side with Matt on this one, standing out of range and responding to the sword and not the fighter is exactly why rapiers exist
No offense beacause I think you are a serious practitioner and therfore legit talking about "what would happen".
But just speaking about it, "if it does this, I would do that", it SOUNDS like keybord jitsu.
So maybe a demo would support your argument.
You're assuming you both have swords out already?
Iaido is the art of sword drawing.
"1 cut, the end" fact is the katana is made for speed at the draw of the sword. The way we draw the sword we can come at it many different ways.
I'm not entirely sure what exactly you are thinking when you say cutting down but of you think you are strong enough to "disapate" the energy of the katana with a incredibly light blade that can only be used one handed.
Cool. Fact is I seen people fight with rapier.
And I seen people fight with katana.
I took kendo, not really sure if you seen how we fight? I'm assuming no?
The arm pit? Now I'm really curious on how you think we'll be attacking?
Because but you demonstration,
And what I know from Japanese sword fighting? I don't see how my arm pit would be exposed?
But you moving in that is a bonus for me 😊
And often we wait for the attack.
This sounds reasonable when you show it solo but if you actually look at a sparring session of katana vs rapier you'll know those are non-issues. Ppl much more focussed on hitting/not getting hit than cutting through rapiers/avoiding such low % event
You need someone to do the demonstration with so viewers can understand better.
Again Destreza vs kendo and kenjutsu !!
I think Destreza is superior and the history of duels in Macao is a proof !
Anyway sir you are referred to Gerard Thibault d’ Anvers which is an interpretation of Spanish Destreza.
Same would be with Pacheco or even Rada !
This moustache seems trustworthy. It is settled than. Guns beat swords in 99.9% from distance greater then 10m.
I can't tell if it's raining or snowing or perhaps you're using a radioactive sword
So basically it boils down to how good the swordsmen are in countering and attacking a type of sword and technique. Just like boxing. Styles makes fight.
Hm, but wouldnt that throw away the range bonus of the rapier only for the chance of the blade beeing broken by the two-handed sword?
And if in range, shouldnt the two-handed sword have all the advantages on its side?
Or would you say, that even so, the risk of the rapiers blade to be broken is just two high? But then, why have the rapier even been invented in the first place? 🤔
That is a great explanation but finding someone who is an expert in the katana so there can be a comparative blow for blow would clarify a lot.
I might be a bit out of my expertise here, but arent katanas separated from longswords due to to them being a lot more sturdier because of their non-spring material? As well as the presence of a heavy blunt side that is used for deflection and enemy weapon control?
I mean, saying that they are the same and over categorized could bring the argument of just joining all pointy metal stick as a single category?
Even on the show Mythbusters two handed swords including the katana were shown breaking or badly damaging rapiers.Mythbusters was trying to show whether swords including katanas could cut through other swords and while swords were not able to cut through other swords they were still able to snap, compromise or badly damage other swords.
In mythbusters the swords were held in place by a clamp - a situation that would only be replicated if the wielder of the rapier was inhumanly strong and for some reason chose to remain completely rigid on the block. In my experience, a skilled rapier/saber fighter can block strong blows with relatively little resistance through smart angles and mechanical advantage.
@@wishesandfishesplus a parry is not a block
@@wishesandfishesDisagree with this simply because Matt Easton and David both have reacted to and looked at different videos and have always said when it's a rapier against a curved, two-handed blade, the two-handed blade usually wins.
@@zaynes5094 that's potentially true, but doesn't have anything to do with the katana breaking or damaging the rapier
@@wishesandfishesOr the skilled rapier user could simply void the strike, or the rapier user, if insufficently skilled, could also get his rapier beaten out of the way, since his humans arms aren't made of steel, (like said clamp) and so his rapier would simply be pushed away, it simply would not "snap" at all!
I say this as a lover of Katana. I have come to appreciate the beauty of rapiers a lot recently, especially the guards! XD
TLDR: I agree with what you said but there are actually even more scenarios, none of which would result in a rapier simply "snapping" as if it were made of straw.
Haha if the immortals ala the Highlander would be real, then this guy would be one of them. But I don't think he got hit by the lightning before recording this, because a rapier is a shitty weapon to decapitate someone with.
can t you find in London a 6th, 7th Dan in kendo to spar with a sparring katana against your rapier? otherwise is bla bla bla.
Me kataner that were handed down to me by me daddy, turns out in the handle is hidden a crystal flute. So me cut me hair like mister sir Patrick Stewart, and then we play along on his tin flute, from time to time.
So, as in any fight, you're working for position.
These men are now just having conversations with one another via videos. XD
Katana were fairly thick in the blade and the edge although very sharp was slightly convex in cross-section historically making it quite strong there.. (Admittedly they make "katana" for cutting competition which are basically two-handed machetes, but let's stick with real fighting blades.)
Right, the amount of niku on historical Japanese blades is very often overlooked in favor Chinese reproductions that have a flat edge
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 Right, although in fairness a lot of Edo period blades were ground very flat to keep weight down, swords never being intended in this period to get near a battlefield.
Yeah, I think it was Masahide who bemoaned the general state of sword making in the Edo period and advocated a return to proper swords suited for fighting.
@@althesmith about that, this video I found (you may have already seen it) talks about some of the accounts Masahide accumulated. It’s an extension of the katana vs rapier topic but uses examples of katana from the mid-late edo period so keep that in mind:
th-cam.com/video/MBMZwh687Q0/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
He was not a fan of very wide hamon especially hardened in nie deki. In plain English terms, nie seems to be the result of deliberate overheating of the steel prior to quenching resulting in grain growth. Pretty but not tough.@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699
braum without his shield ? sup diff
thank you for mentioning cicular movement and enemy blade control which are key concepts in verdadera destreza as well.
It is Verdadera Destreza 😊
Imagine this in a boxing situation. The rapier is a jab. The opponent slips the jab and and counters with hooks or straight right ...in boxing the man that started the sequence with a jab, still has his right hand. But with rapier, unless paired with a dagger, you're screwed.ojce ana opponent moves past the range of the tip, it's all over.
you know you can move your body and your hand right? Also rapier can still slice, they're not very good at it but it still work
TBH, I feel like these discussions and arguments pop up every two years like clockwork anymore.
But rarely with such well informed commentary 😊
It’s because they are fun
So I’m curious what kind of two handed swords do you think Thibault came across?
Matt Galas apparently has research pointing at his renown as a longsworder himself. Past that I have no idea (other than what you can see at the end of the vid) and would offer conjecture:)
@@LondonLongswordPossibly montantes/spadones? They were used during the period when Thibault was alive, and were certainly contemporaries of the rapier.
@@FirstLast-ks6vm That would make sense, in that case I would hope to not be fighting against some one using that in the first place!
It is good to address how to approach the situation other than try to get in a nachreisen
Longswords also were used in a sporting fashion at this time. As well as a specialist weapon in the same role as great swords. There's documented usage of them well into the 17th century for stuff like body guard usage etc
Slightly dead. ;-)
thats pretty practice rappier
the british acent i de best
So is it just a rule that like 1/5 dudes in the hema community have to have some badass facial hair oooor? 🤔😂
Old european tradition, what else should a gentleman do with ones whiskers?
Tradition
In short, just stab at the opponent's attack, and you basically will get yourself a quite solid parry position
No:)
I must have misinterpreted, i thought you were talking about using something like a crown guard to stop a downward cut, and then step offline for a counter winding thrust
I might not have explained it well. You are not stabbing at it, rather receiving it on the point:)
@@LondonLongsword Sir it'd be great if you could elaborate on this with a two handed sword wielding partner.
I assume whether the sword breaks or not is more down to the quality of the steel and of the forge rather than to the type of sword.
Yes but no. All things being equal, the rapier will break much sooner than the katana due to the thickness and length of the blade.
Slightly dead?
The mysterious Viscount V. from the 16th/17th century killed 500 people in duels and fights. He preferred a rapier ..died from bullet finally :)
Aside from your expert talk, I would just like to say, from one moustachio'd man to another, kudos to you, my good man.
I don't remember the book name. A swordsman from the mid 1800's stated a good European swordsman would beat a samurai usually, because the European was exposed to more styles and was more adaptable. A samurai was to inflexible in style. Was the reason he gave.
Take note while you still could tap away your opponents sword just like how you do it with European style or do all sorts of "binds", katana style of fencing doesn't really do that much--when talking about katana, it'd be best to learn how they were fought with before or in the early days of Edo period especially with the term "uke-nagashi" which is often done with utilizing the "bind" and the "bite" differently since there's literally not much any use with the false edge of a katana (that could help you prolong/save your life in a sticky situation, since katana is like the arming sword but as a backup weapon to the extreme).
Edit: that counter makes sense but you didn't take into the account that a katana practitioner (at least samurai themselves) is trained to be able to use grapples and stuff especially utilizing it in sticky situations just as you presented. Many people mistake the katana as a long sword but it's more of an emergency arming sword (like if you broke your weapon, in a melee or got dismounted) since samurais primarily fought on horseback much like a cataphract lancer as well as mounted archers while they still used the longer nodachi but overtime especially near edo and in edo the length of katana is what stayed)
Even in broadsword a valid 'classic' tactics is to break the Rapier by battering it. I would move it from 'two handed swords' to a classical definition of 'broadsword'; a sword with a 'broad' blade. I don't have a source at the top of my head but I'm thinking Angelo had comments on just battering the blade until it breaks.
That said if your main tactic to defeat a Rapier is to just cut harder and hope you break the blade, or to batter the blade till it breaks...well I hope you don't mind getting stabbed.
Hmmm... interesting... but would you trust a guy with no shoes hiding on a roof? Nice moustache, though!
I started saber fencing when i was 11 years old, three months into it, my first blade broke from a swing against another saber. These are quite impressive springs that you can usually bend more than 90 degrees but sometimes it just happens.
Hurry! Someone crack a joke about London's widespread knife crime
There's also the "x" factor of variable steel quality in the period.
Reminds me of this video, where a motante demonstration bent an opposing rapier blade almost 90 degrees. th-cam.com/video/vxHaNRO705k/w-d-xo.htmlsi=SomBmA5XLOtYmbR7
i know more about katana than rapier but i think it would be a bit of a chess match especially with armor . subbed
You beat a 2 hander with destreza by giving it a math test but the this 2 hander is Japanese and really good at math. = match detected!
it is an interesting discussion that i remember having fifty years ago while studying kendo. in one on one, i believe the rapier has the advantage. a katana is much shorter than the average european sword. there is a strange attack where the sword is poised overhead while the right foot (ALMOST ALWAYS the forward foot in kendo) is drawn back. at the proper instant, the katana is launched by the right hand while the left hand ONLY remains on the haft. this increases the effective reach considerably, and the blade describes a ballistic arc toward the head. in a many opponent combat, i imagine disengaging a thrusting weapon might take more time than cutting through with a katana.
Really can't afford to trade a stab for a cut as it's hard to stab someone's head off.
I've seen you talk before but this is the first I've seen this channel. thanks & maybe you should do a video with Scholagladitoria where you & matt could teach alot
The only way to settle this disagreement is a death match battle.
Any sword wil break when certain amount of 'stress' accumulates in the metal. Regardless if its larger or smaller, thicker or thinner. When its their time to break they will break. But its one thing for a sword to break, and another for a sword to CUT THRU another provided they are both relatively new and made of quality steel.
Fantastic! Rapier judo! I need to read some of this…
Rapier vs Katana the rapier is gonna take it most of the time. Range too op.
Ok first of all i agree with you in that rapeirs break as do all swords and that at least hopefully modern swords still break but do so at hopefully a less frequent rate than period blades would have .
Secondly you fall into the trap that almost all hema guys fal into amd that is lumping all two handed swords together into one category. Invariably once this is done you start using the blades you are most familiar with to base your observations and arguments. Which is almost always the long sword.
But the thing is :
A katana (tachi, nodachi, even wakasashi , ) are NOT long swords!!!!
They different edge geometry, they have different tapers, and vastly differnt thicknesses and two very basic , important differences:
Katanas are curved for the most part and katanas are single edged. And so jave to be handedled differently to do the same number of cuts.
You do a diservice to your own expertise to ignore such large basic differences to jump straight to examples of cuts and strategy . You also do a disservice to the expertise of katana weilders having totally and casually dismissed the differences in blades to discuss that which you are more familiar with .
Especially when the subject in the heading for the topic is
Katanas vs rapiers
Not two hamded swords vs rapeirs
Capice?
Now you can go into the physics of things like taper amd temper and steel construction amd how that affects energy dissipation which might be too indepth for a you tube video nut things like single edge amd curve are too basic to ignore amd make too large difference to just disssmiss just to talk about what you have more experience in but is out of
CONTEX! ( had to throw that in there for mr eastons sake ) ;p
Yeah, no I don’t make those errors of judgement. :)
I've recently been trying to start learning vulgar destreza, but I'm having quite a bit of trouble with finding resources on it. I know it's not the same as many other weapon systems, and I'd absolutely love a pointer or two if you are able to help.
Lovely video as always. Cheers!
From my terribly heretical standpoint, everything that doesn’t embody the principles of Verdadera, but represents the greater body of common fencing works, is vulgar, so it’s more a case of not tripping over the bloody stuff.😊
@@LondonLongsword Thank you very much!
Can't argue with that! If you're looking for specifically Iberrian source, Tim Rivera did a few classes some years back on Godinho.
@@johnrechtoris9796 Thanks for the name!
.."he's slightly dead.." lol
What you do make of Estoc or triangler cross section thrusting swords that will not, absolutely will not, but broken by any 2 handed “sturdy-er” sword?
Be broken. Not but broken.
katana is the best by a long mile
Well done for standing out in the rain to explain.
surprise surprise, a two handed sword could break another sword, In other news a great big German Zweihander, could also break a sword
........ Halberds and bills and poleaxes to. ..... In fact matt easton did a video a while back talking about how the saber was more popular as a military sword cus war is rough and tumble and some people were worried about thier smallswords being broken. Well, rapiers are kinda the ancestor of the smallsword and halberds , poleaxes, zwiehanders are more mean than sabers, tulwars and bayonets so it isn't that much of the imagination that the rapier would have the same issues.
That mustache rocks!
These two need to get together for sure
3:05 Assassins approach 👀
Verdadera destreza…
😇💭
Thxs Sir
What all these videos leave out is that the most important is the skill and luck of the swordsman or swordswoman, doesn’t matter the type of sword,the sword is just a tool. Any sword can be broken if it has weak spots. All swords have their strong strengths and weaknesses in combat, skill and a little luck can overcome come those. What any good swordsperson knows is that sometimes the best strategy is just to run, know when you can’t win. All these videos are good, they just ignore the most important thing the person wielding the sword. A piece of wood can defeat a steal sword, an oar, a baseball bat, a staff, a wooden sword. It is all in the skill. A particular sword won’t make you better.
Oh it absolutely matters ! Yes skill is the greatest factor for sure but if the opponents are roughly equal than the weapon gives an advantage.
Ex : a small sword is not a great weapon for fighting against a Nodachi or a Zwheilnader.
You won't fight a Halberdier with baseball bat.
Skill is crucial but again the weapon also matters.
All things equal, the footwork is where the success or failure on either side would be determined
This type of debate only occurs among those who do not know history.
The Spanish fought against ronins and pirates and devastated them...but the Portuguese started trade with Japan and Japan prohibited the use of European swords because of the number of Japanese who died in duels (they have examples of these swords in a museum Japanese).
Breakage of a European weapon against a katana of the time?
Impossible, the steel manufacturing processes in Japan were very bad and their swords did not have quality steel. So much so that Japan sent an expedition to Toledo (Spain) to ask the King of Spain to let them verify the way the forges of Toledo work.
No!
I’m glad you are taking this so well😂
@@LondonLongsword Leave it, mi amigo, it is clear that the rapier is superior, and that is a fact, let him ask the wako pirates and the Ronins who fought in Cagayan against the Spaniards 😂, I really like your mustache, it is very British, greetings from Spain
How's well does a raiper draw from its sheath ?
Maybe I will do the video on this as we were covering it in class two weeks past.
So, if I hear right,if you are a 2h sword wielder, some of your effort should be in fact directed at the rapier itself?
Never used either but I always had the idea the flexibility of the rapier and its springy toughness would rarely break. But then again, I have no practical experience xD
No. You cut the opponent, not his sword unless he put it’s in your way. Then you cut his sword and him
A rapier is not springy, a rapier is stiff and it won't break because it's pretty thick at it's base, think about cutting a steel rebar, not gonna happen. It's only thinner toward the end, but since it's a long blade there is a lot of angular motion so the cut would not be effective (also good luck to catching the point)
When you see a springy rapier, it mean it's a training one since you can't have a stiff thruster or you will kill you sparring partner
@@Uryendel good info all! I'd like to learn rapier fencing. Just no experience and school nearby lol.
@@shkotayd9749 You can try to find a fencing club (the olympic sport) in the category épée, of course since it's a sport it's not exactly the same (also it's more based on court short sword than rapier) but the techniques are pretty close and it will give you a good fundamental
Nice to get some slightly more technical analysis - too many sword channels base everything on some mystical "average" which like all averages only truly exist on paper.
Firstly I'm a complete novice regarding all things sword; no matter the type of sword or school of thought.
That said, what I've gleaned from your good tutorial is a nice rebuttal of M. Easton regarding katanas against rapiers, based solely on my years of experience in the martial arts. It seems as if your tutorial is describing an A) INTERCEPTING of the katana or B) a DEFLECTING of the katana before blunt/brute force meets the rapier edge "full-on".
In stand up martial arts (non- grappling) this is a requirement when a smaller stature opponent is defending against a taller/stronger opponent. In this realm of martial arts, speed kills! When a kick or strike comes in you firstly INTERCEPT AT KEY joints and misdirect the blunt force away and in some instances, DEFLECT his/her fist or foot strike before impact!
Great tutorial, thank you for posting!
I found it interesting watching this guy's footwork as he makes his examples. The way he moves around the direction of the camera in such a way that we can clearly see what he's talking about (and he's doing it naturally, probably doesn't even consciously know that he's doing it) implies to me that he has a very good grasp of angles. The way his weight is ever centered as he moves around with smooth, deliberate footwork makes me think that he's probably not the guy you want to go up against with a sword.
Musashi spoke of distance n timing being super important. Read book of five rings.
Well, in 1896 a show-duel was held between the Hungarian Royal fencing instructor and Chief of the Royal Guard Count Italo Santelli (whom you might know as the "father of modern sabre fencing") using a one-handed sword - a rapier if I remember correctly - and the Japanese Emperor's chief retainer using, of course, a katana. It was a disaster for the Japanese, who lost more than 80% of the clashes. People argued it wasn't so much about the difference in skill but the difference in their overall tactics and fighting philosophy. While the samurai fought openly, the Italian was jabbing at him, targeting mainly arms and scored easy points.
Another duel, for real this time, was held during the Russo-Japanese war in Manchuria, between a Serb from Montenegro, Aleksandar Saičić for the Russians and an unknown Japanese duelist but feared for his earlier victories against the Russians. Now, this Serb was famous for his lightning-quick style and agility and was, reportedly, able to unbutton other people with his sabre without harming them. The clash was fought on horseback, as it was held on the no-man's-land before the battle, and was very close: the samurai managed to cut the Serbs forehead and tried to capitalize on the advantage but his opponent evaded the blow and struck him down during the passage. Saičić was commended by both his Russian superiors but also the Japanese admiral Togo, for his bravery and for the respect he showed to his dead opponent.
So there's no need for theory, as fights of this kind have happened in the past, but it should be mentioned that the outcome was more dependent on the actual fighters and their fighting-styles, rather than the differences between the weapons. They are just the tools of the trade, anyway. But if you wanna make comparisons - katana can be only measured up to the 14th century longsword that is colloquially known as the "bastard-sword", because they are used in similar manner and for the similar effects. Rapier... kinda too different.
At the end of the day neither has the advantage. If the rapier thrust there is a possibility of it being parried by a sword with more mass. If the sword slash forward it as a chance of running to a pointing rapier.
only here coz that rapier is beautiful