One thing that I’ve heard is that in an earlier draft of the game’s script, Chris was a very active participant of the first prank. It explains why he was getting tortured so harshly
The way the plot of that is now, I can imagine they changed it to he stayed behind to get Josh drunk so he wouldn't beat them up or whatever when he found out. But then if this is true, they don't clarify it later, so it's only good as a headcanon...
@@thunderclanwarrior1253the way he get ash feel guilty " you were really involved" when she was not always made me a little mad, nlw you'r saying that he did worst then her ?
@@thunderclanwarrior1253it seems like a stretch though. Chris seems to care a bit too much to deliberately get Josh drunk for a prank of embarrassing his sister. Their is no real evidence he was involved. Chris seems like a fairly chill guy, and deeply cared about Josh. It’s possible, but it doesn’t seem that likely
@@chriswilliams4700 That's very true. he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to go through with the prank if he thought they would torment Hannah so much. Maybe they lied and said they would do something silly, like draw on Josh's face if he got him passed out, but like you said there's no evidence in the dialogue or story to suggest that.
@@thunderclanwarrior1253 Why would he do that? They just got drunk; nothing more. There's even a good chance they never brought up the prank with Josh.
It always baffles me that no one mentions the fact that Hannah was by no means innocent. She took the first chance to sleep with her friends boyfriend. As soon as she got the chance she was taking her clothes off knowing that Mike was dating her friend. By no means did she deserve the horrors that befell her but the prank wouldn’t have worked if she wasn’t such a terrible friend. I think that the fact literally everyone knew she wanted to be with Mike goes to show she was never subtle about her feelings.
Thank you!!! Agreed 100%, she didn't deserve to become a wendigo, but she was so quick to be like, "WhAt aRe YoU gUyS DoInG?? wHaT ThE HeCk!" And play the victim when she was literally just about to play homewrecker with her "friend's" boyfriend. Idk how "naive" she is, she knew what she was doing was wrong.
NONE of the characters are innocent. Also, what did you expect when they pulled the prank on HER, AND she was naive? Her having a crush on Mike wasn't the problem and the note was written for her to come to HIM. I highly doubt she wanted to steal Mike away from Emily--although obviously she would be the better choice in that--or maybe didn't know they were dating, or that Mike would be open to a one-stand or something. Either way, she was still recorded AND Mike played a part in the prank.
Hannah and Sam wear the same bracelet. Hannah dressed as Beth asks a not drunk Josh what did our little sister get herself into? That's Beth getting pranked. She runs out the door hoping Mike will follow. Hannah, Josh, and Beth. The clue in the library. He has waited 16 years for *little" Hannah He knows they have been switching roles. Look at the clues. Chris and Josh were not drunk It's a story of redemption. Mike and Emily become Nathan Drake and Laura Croft. Why? Because the mountain energy is supporting them. Mike knows what's outside the cabin Hannah was supposed to kill it. Let's just say sometimes a lunatic wendigo that skins women, eats organs, and makes zombies sometimes takes over Josh's body and mind. Pay attention when he drag's Sam away. And your favorite Chris is an evil fuck. He says "We" because he helped that night.
The thing I think is genius about Emily in the mines is that when you find that first totem in the lodge it’s of her dying by the explosion or fire. And you don’t know where that scene is going to happen the first time you play. So when you’re in the mines and she’s constantly surrounded by fire I think that also does a lot of good work on getting you to care about her.
Yah I wish Jessica was utilized more and maybe met up with Emily in the mines they could have built their relationship more or maybe not but try to survive together maybe even sharing their worries for mike and Matt or realizing how dumb it was to fight considering the situation
@@kneehighgloves8551 The first thing I want if we ever get a remaster is Jess & Emily meeting in the mines, it would've been cool to see them have to work together.
I think another thing that makes Josh so sympathetic is that he's schizophrenic. Not ONLY that, but he was misdiagnosed and being prescribed the wrong medicine by Dr. Hill. Dr.Hill isn't trained to treat or even spot schizophrenia, so he prescribed Josh a general antidepressant, which obviously didn't help him, causing Josh to take MANY pills to try and help his hallucinations, which ended in him stopping taking his pills all together. While Josh isn't excused from his actions by any means, it's still so sad to learn just how much he was failed by the people who were supposed to help him. (This is all learned via receipts and papers lying around in the cabin basement btw, in case anyone wanted to know where to find this info :D)
Sone part of me wonder if Josh never told Dr Hill about the hallucinations. Maybe he thought the hallucinations was real since from what I heard, Schizophrenic couldn't tell reality from hallucination. He might actually thought his sisters ghost was actually haunting him and blaming him for his death.
What's actually even worse is that the treatment for general depression is antidepressants which work by increasing neurotransmitters like Serotonin and Dopamine in the brain. Schizophrenia is caused and exacerbated by an imbalance of Dopamine and Serotonin which means the meds he was being prescribed were not only not helping but actively making the problem worse
@@gerstein03was looking for this comment. I was incorrectly diagnosed as bipolar 1 and the meds caused me to get so much worse. I feel for Josh. He was going through so much hell.
While I don’t think Sam has the same amount of character growth/regression as Emily or Ashley, I do think she has a good bit of complexity to her. The most visible time in the game to see this is in the end credits (if you save Sam, obviously). Throughout the game we see Sam being a headstrong leader (along with Mike) and keeping her composure (though both of them look physically exhausted towards the end of the game). But at the very end, you see her fall apart, but it’s not in the same way you see Jess fall apart. Instead of looking vulnerable, she seems to shut down and look more stoic than ever which is an unhealthy reaction to the trauma she had just faced. Her relationship with Josh was also very complicated and became more so after everything he did. She felt extremely betrayed. I think her and Chris took Josh’s betrayal the hardest because they were the closest with Josh. The night these characters faced really did get a hold of all of them in one way or another.
Yes that's something I noticed was kind of missing from this video. When Sam and Josh go to the basement to repair the boiler au the start of the game they have excellent chemistry and seem to be flirting a bit as well. And like you said during the credits she mentions she thought that they were close and feels very betrayed
I love Sam because she was the only one who showed much kindness to Josh (except chris but he was obsessed with ashley). It was nice to have a character who wasn't caught up in the love triangles and she felt the most clear-headed. Also she's a badass in the end scene in the cabin.
At first, I really disliked Josh, but the more I learned about him, the sadder I got... Some people did some research on the medical files you can find in-game, and it's fairly obvious he was given the wrong treatment for his mental illness. We can assume he doesn't really have any support system either. Paired with the intense trauma and anxiety, it's no surprise he went into full psychosis by the end of the game...
In ONE scene when she was saving herself and didn't bother to help anyone else, while also yelling at Matt who was trying to save her, made him out as murderer/idiot, got heated about Mike ALMOST shooting her when he had a good reason to, and just never shut up regardless of what was happening. Out of all the characters, Emily is the most detestable; and none of the characters are that bad at all.
@@AustinWalkerN7 For no fucking reason when Ashley didn't do anything wrong. Nobody wanted Emily to die or get shot, yet she pushes her "friend" in the way as Wendigoes are chasing after them?
42:26 Chris was actually part of the prank initially. In a demo shown at Gamescom in August 2014 a model of him can be seen with the other characters when Ashley finds the doll house in the basement. They probably removed his involvement late into development and didn't have time to remove all of the dialogue where he mentions his participation. This explains why Josh is so focused on pranking Chris, he probably viewed his involvement as a more personal betrayal since the two of them have been best friends since the 3rd Grade. In the final game where Chris isn't involved you could explain Josh's behaviour due to his trauma and mental state. He feels extreme guilt over not being able to save his sisters and unfairly blames Chris for getting him black out drunk at the party that night, thus choosing him as the main target for his revenge prank a year later.
If you also add in that all Josh wanted to do was make the others feel as helpless has he and his sisters had that night, it makes sense that even if all Chris did was get Josh black out drunk, that Josh would feel like he might have been the most helpless (as in he couldn't help) only because of Chris. So, giving Chris (who was Josh's best friend at the time) a few incidents where he could make choices where he is very helpless and left to either die or kill, leaves Chris as helpless as Josh felt last year (and possibly for the last year). Add onto that that Chris isn't shown to have kept up with Josh at all, he might have felt abandoned on top of everything. Josh loses his sisters because of his idiotic friends, his mental state gets worse and then Chris (his long time best friend) seem to just leave him alone, his mental state gets worse and he might have been misdiagnosed (MatPat pointed this out, but I do believe it because the syndromes simply makes more sense for schizophrenia than deep depression). Then, because he isn't thinking clearly (and possibly that his parents ain't helping him outside of sending him to a therapist/physiologist), he makes dumb choices leading to the whole big plan. Josh wasn't I this to hurt anyone, just make them understand how lonely and heartbroken their little "prank" made him feel and Chris, having been his best friend, should have been there for him
@@JDM-is-my-nameone of the best comments about Josh I've read- you get it! Reading this was like breathing fresh air thank you 😅 (No real shade to those who don't understand Josh's motivations, I think the devs could have done more to characterize and humanize him, but it makes me very sad)
I think the reason that Chris and Ashley were made the “stars” of Josh’s plan was because it really WAS supposed to be a prank that Josh wanted to capitalize on by making it a film after the fact. His father was a filmmaker after all. He wanted to make Chris the star because he’s his best friend and didn’t participate in the prank. At least that’s how I’ve always interpreted it.
It also seems like Chris trying to shoot him instead of Ashley or himself completely trashed whatever was left of his plan-like he may have had more gags set up and waiting for Mike and Jess that just fell through, because of both the Wendigo Curse *and* Chris' unexpected defiance.
@@mm34925hmm Mike can kill Emily, Matt can get Jess killed, Ashley can kill Chris, Chris gets the stranger killed if we want to count that, Sam can really kill everyone at the end, Josh can actually murder people depending on the ending, so maybe Chris but I’m not sure…
One of the biggest reasons why I love Until Dawn, is the twist villain. They set up so many hints throughout the story that still make sense for the red herrings, and when the twist happens it still makes perfect sense. Also the acting is actually pretty good.
I think the confusion behind Josh’s prank on his friends was intentional. Josh was passed out, he wouldn’t know who exactly was a part of the prank on his sisters or not. Also, he wasn’t on any meds and I think it’s meant to display how delusional he is at this point in the game. He was targeting the wrong people, so the irony of it shows you how messed up he is in the head. Josh is my fav character btw. It really sucks that he’s the only character in the game that doesn’t get a happy ending even though he was probably suffering the most. He’s so well written man.
I would agree, but Ashley states that the dollhouse has everyone in their positions from the prank. But this might just be a plot hole by the game, cause if he didn't see the prank he wouldn't have known
@@1deron1 He watched the video tape? Idk maybe he thinks everyone was in on it regardless of whether they were in the room or not. The "everyone's against me" mentality 🤷♂
He saw the recording (if you'll recall, he even printed it to 8mm, both as a means to guilt Chris and Ash *and* to make one of the fake ghost projections). He also had access to several of the written correspondences between participants planning the prank ahead of time, which he also left around the chalet to further guilt-trip those who knew about the prank and did nothing to stop it. He summed it up perfectly when he said he wanted them to experience exactly what his sisters went through: he wanted them to understand the depth of their guilt-and he wanted them to arrive at that conclusion on their own. In the tradition of the classic "prank-gone-wrong revenge" slashers of the eighties, the real revenge wasn't in physically attacking his targets-it was in making them see themselves for what they really are.
A small note on why people might like Sam; She is our first character and she is also the one to flick the switch at the end. She is the first and last character we have who are involved with the house story, so yeah, I do think that's part of why people like her. We like our first characters and we like them because they are our first set of eyes. Edit: auto correct can't spell
The idea behind her character would make more sense if the game were set in the late nineties or early oughts. She takes a lot of cues from Kevin Williamson's neo-slasher heroines, particularly _Scream's_ Sydney Prescott-which was all the rage in the years between _I Know What You Did Last Summer_ and _Halloween: Resurrection,_ but fell out of style around the torture pr0n boom that followed _Saw._
Honestly, the most confusing part of Josh's whole charade was that he punished Sam, putting her through a terrifying night even though she tried to stop the prank against Hannah from the very beginning. However, Josh really cares for her and shows it even when he shouldn't. As Josh, her friend: 1) By leaving the hot water off, this gives him the opportunity to walk with Sam every step of the way through the basement, allowing her to become familiar with that environment. Even before he starts to walk her through the basement, he tells her how much he appreciates her. 2) Going down the stairs, he alerts her to the broken concrete near the bottom of the first flight. This ends up being one of the first Quick Time Event prompts in the sequence and it comes pretty quick. 3) He tells her several times that the basement is not a safe place to be alone. Initially, his motives for saying this are pretty straightforward: He doesn't want her or anyone else coming down here and discovering his plans or his set ups too early. He set up base inside that hotel area and doesn't want to be found out until his big reveal. But think of the other function of what saying this serves, spooking her. Josh knows fear and what it can do. He knows that fear can bring people together and fear helps them survive. In fact, in the end of his plans when he's questioned by Chris and Mike on why he put his friends through so much fear he called himself a Healer because he knows how effective fear is to the human mind. Fear puts you on high alert, making you more aware of your surroundings. By telling her that the basement isn't a safe place, this reinforces her fear later on when she's down there. If she at all felt safe she may not be as survival-minded. (An example of this would be near the end of Emily's Chapter 6 sequence when Emily is escaping the mines. As soon as she locks the door behind her, she thinks she's safe. This causes her to ignore the fact that the Wendigo can easily break through that door and kill her.) By telling Sam it's not safe down there, he's letting her know that he could come from any angle to get her and to be on alert once she's down there. Subsequently, when Chris does scare her down there it brings out her resourcefulness by knocking over a mattress to impede Chris's movement. That was not in Josh's plan but he's glad he got to see how Sam would respond before the event. 4) The bat. It can't be said for sure whether or not he put it out in the open on purpose but if he was truly trying to harm her he would've thought to get rid of any weapons she may use against him. You might think, well if you don't show it to him he keeps it locked away. This drives home my point, the bat was probably something that's been there for a while and was probably something he forgot was there. If you don't bring it up, he just locks it in there as usual. But if you bring his attention to it, he remembers that it's there and what it means to him. Knowing it's there, he doesn't put it back inside where it was - he lays it out in the open for anyone to grab and use. Again, if he truly wanted to harm Sam, he would've locked it away. 5) Leaving the basement, even though he's laughing with Sam and Chris about Chris's prank, his mind is still on making sure the whole process runs smoothly for Sam by placing the flashlight within her reach before she is supposed to enter the theater. Giving her a flashlight shows that he wants to make sure she can see where she's going even if she does reach the hotel section of the basement. As the Pyscho: 1) Before the sequence begins he makes sure that her path in the dark cabin is very well lit by placing many many candles along the way as well as placing balloons with arrows to direct her in where she should go. 2) The candles and the door with no handle - this one may be a stretch. Having her grow accustomed to following light may have caused her to go to the door with no handle which may have been the direction he wanted her to run. He's definitely conflicted between truly wanting to catch her and ensuring her safety. He put the handle in view on top of something which allowed him some time to perhaps catch her before she finds the hotel area. If she did get the handle and got the door open, he knew that once she was in the hotel (where he's been setting up shop) he would be able to find where she is and finally get her. Alternatively, if she went to the other door in the basement (the door that Chris and Ashley eventually go through) she would've found it locked and she would've gotten caught then and there. The door without the handle is a potential door. It can be opened in time. Having that door well lit may have cause her to run toward that light when she enters the basement. She even looks at the other door, rules it out in her head, and turns toward the door with no handle. 3) He's going after her very slowly. This shows he's chasing her more for effect than the result. He wants her to be scared and part of him wants her to get away. Ultimately, going slow also shows how confident he is that he will eventually catch her. If Sam keeps running he knows how to catch her and he does. But this isn't something he wants to do; when he's putting her to sleep he tells her, "I'm sorry." If you do manage to hide from him successfully he's very openly frustrated. He truly intends to catch her. Not because he wants to, but to ensure her safety for the rest of the night. By putting her to sleep he can quickly use her to lure Chris and Ashley downstairs, but he then puts her in a room away from all of the horror he puts Chris and Ashley through. He ties her up but leaves the door unlocked allowing her another potential escape. This shows he doesn't really want to trap her, he just doesn't want her near what's going on outside. He also leaves Sam her backpack full of clothes right next to where she's tied up, which supports the theory of her capture being the endgame of the prank where she's concerned as /u/Urmull point out here. In his plan as he would reveal himself to Chris and Ashley, he probably would've gone to untie and apologize to Sam. She was just the bait. In the end, he didn't put Sam through as much torture as he put Chris and Ashley through but he did cause her some trauma. What he did was not okay, but how he did it allows us to see a glimpse of his "loving" trait. And to be honest, if Josh was allowed to carry out his plan flawlessly, he would be able to create the “real” horror film (I think it stems from him wanting to be more like his dad and possibly seeking his approval? just speculation from that baseball bat talk) he wanted where the friends he liked came out looking like heroes, and the ones he was mad at came out looking terrible. So Sam, innocent final girl; Chris, heroic lover who saves the girl. Mike and Jess would be classic “sluts,” and tbh he wouldn’t need to work hard to make Emily look bad with the way she treats Matt. Remember, he said he was going to put it on the internet and they’d go viral; if Jess and Mike had a sex tape go viral on the internet it would haunt them for the rest of their lives, and Emily’s treatment of Matt would make her widely hated. Chris sacrificing himself to save Ashley (which Josh probably assumed he’d do) would make him an immediate hero; even if things didn’t work out for them in the long run, Chris would have those “good guy” points for the rest of his life. And worst case scenario, Sam just looks like a classic innocent victim who dies early on; if Josh convinced her to go along with it, she could easily be the heroic final girl who “defeats” the psycho. Josh was a messed up character who suffered a lot and was a victim of malpractice and misdiagnosing. He really did not deserve his ending ;-;
I love how games like Until Dawn and Detroit become Human really set the standarts for these kinds of choice games. I'm afraid to say that these two are the best games in this genre and it's really difficult to surpass those two
I think one thing about Emily I made note of is she was Mikes original gf that everyone wanted and although Hannah was obvious leading to her downfall. Jess clearly was more low key if she ended up with him a year later. So she essentially had two friends/peers want her bf at the same time. One successfully snagging him while the other presumably died over the ordeal. Like that’s crazy. I’d be bitter too 😂 I honestly would’ve loved to see Emily and Jess ultimately put aside the beef and work together to escape the mines than Matt and Jess.
Yes! I constantly see people say Emily is awful for how she treats others but it’s very clear to some those she considered friends both liked Mike, likely even while dating. Hannah was never subtle, enough that us was very clear for Jess to plan the prank which likely indicates to a level she also liked him with just a better chance of hiding it. Given the events that would likely have had to a certain level a traumatic feeling to the lodge already it makes sense as to why Emily isn’t in the best of moods there. I’d assume the prank is what would have placed the seeds to the break up, then have your ex start dating your friend who planned a lot of the prank, and then be left in a creepy house with nothing really working- damn I’d feel the same way as Emily. It just is that to me, Emily comes off as a fully realized late teen through these events and scenes of not having the best of terms, yet is able to overcome it with progression of the plot
I played again recently and missed a QTE I guess I always succeeded (as Mike chasing the flamethrower guy after Jess fell into the mines) and it unlocked a minor exploration area with a jumpscare I’d never seen. Was pleasantly surprised, and it also unlocked a flashback for Mike when flamethrower guy comes to the lodge and explains the wendigo to everyone. Honestly, astounded.
@@foggio3957 Ashley just pointed out the bite. Mike was the one who decided to pull the gun on her. So if someone else were to point it out Mike would have still aim the gun at Emily. So it is not completely her fault.
@@patrickmarquez8307eh that’s debatable. Ashley completely freaked out and basically wanted Mike to shoot Emily. But Ashley was traumatized and paranoid, so I can see why she reacted that way
You can find damaged power stripes and surge protectors in the area of the guest cabin. It’s possible that whatever Josh had planned failed because of power overload Plus, you can find a pic of Hannah and the karma sutra. Something was planned
I love the Sam part. “Sure, she’s kind and smart and levelheaded and physically adept and beautiful and cool and funny and compassionate but I don’t know why people like her!” 😂
@pepelarrza3877 I can see that but in a genre(slasher/thriller) where there's often too many characters with too many flaws to be likable and make too many dumb decisions so you don't feel bad about their death but look foward to it. sam is everyone's goat in a situation for survival becuase of her positive traits vsstly outweighing her negatives. I don't want the girl that cries and screams all the time in a horror situation or the annoying sound mouth who does nothing but complain. I want someone who can stand on business and help us survive.
Many users on the r/untildawn subreddit (myself included) firmly believe that Chris and Ashley were made to suffer more than the others so that they could finally confess their feelings to one another. This can especially be seen during the trap where Chris has to shoot himself or Ashley. As the blades are getting closer and closer, Ashley tells Chris that they were both stupid for never making a move on each other. Since both characters are placed in life or death situations (whether it be by the hands of the Wendigo or by one of Josh’s pranks) there is a sense of urgency to confess their feelings since they are unsure if they’ll be alive to let the other person know. I guess Josh wanted to trauma bond them and it ends up working depending on the players choices!
wasnt there a line before all the creepy stuff started when josh is teasing chris about his crush on ashley and says they need a traumatizing experience to romantically bond?
The way I see it, Josh was absolutely going to prank the whole friend group, he only started with Chris and Ashley because they were the closest targets, that's probably the reason he didn't immediately go for Mike and Jess first In fact it's likely he'd go for them last, they're the most culpable for the prank, so he was going to save the best for last, in fact I believe that's also why he goes for Chris, Ashley and Sam first, Chris and Sam were the least culpable for the prank, and Ashley was just present for it, it would then be easy to assume that his next target was Sam, followed by Matt and Emily, and finally Mike and Jess, it's just that he didn't anticipate Mike and Jess were going to be attacked by Wendigos, he wasn't expecting Mike to show up when he revealed himself to Chris and Ashley, it's also possible he was going to ask them to help him to make the rest of the prank easier There's one detail in the game that makes Josh an even more tragic character, if you read Josh's Medical Files it's shown that he's being prescribed Anti-Depressants, but by examining Josh's behavior through the whole game it's very clear he's showing symptoms of Schizophrenia, Anti-Depressants do nothing to relieve the symptoms of Schizophrenia, as such it's easy to see why he sets his plan into motion and why he has a full-blown Mental Breakdown at the very end
There is actually the (not confirmed) theory that Josh planned to tape Jess and Mike on film while they would have had sex at the little cabin. Clues might be the stuff Josh says to them (I've never played the game in English, so I am translating "back" inside my head, so I'm sorry if it's not word for word): - "Have fun pornstars" - "I'd watch it" However, you're never able to prove it (eg by finding a hidden camera in the cabin as Mike), so the theory is that the idea was there, but later scrapped. This would explain at all why Josh was okay with sending Jess and Mike away instead of including them in his prank like he did with Chirs, Ash and Sam, because his prank on them would have been their sex tape released on the internet.
I call bullshit that Ashley refused to open the door cuz she was on shock. In the scene, there is a flashback to when Chris pointed the gun at her, implying that choice is the reason she didn't open the door. Then I can't remember if it's one of my playthroughs or someone else's but if Ash doesn't open the door, I don't recall her ever acting remorseful for that decision. She has shown guilt or remorse for Hannah and Beth dying, but not Chris if she locks him out. If she was in shock, then she would at least show remorse after the fact. But she doesn't because she doesn't feel guilty. Maybe that developer wanted her to be in shock but whoever directing the acting and animation did not tell the actor and animators that Ash was supposed to be in shock.
If Ashley was in true shock, she wouldn't open the door regardless of the previous choices If they wanted to show that Chris' heroism breaks her out of her shock, they'd show flashbacks of Chris _saving_ her before she opens the door, instead of showing Chris harming her before she lets him die
@@Marigold11037 So far there was a scene where Ashley did not want Chris to go outside due to the wendigo regardless if Chris choose to shoot her or not. Ashley may have still wanted Chris to be safe but Chris holding a gun reminded her of the trauma that Chris have showed onto her.
@patrickmarquez8307 or it's pretty much the example of devs being lazy. Even after Matt dies at the cliff, Emily still says his name, thinking that the weird noises in the mines could be Matt. Same with the interview. "Oh my god, he's dead, isn't he?". Uhh... yep, you pretty much told everyone "he's dead, he fell. He fell so far". "Fucker left me to die". Literally not what happened. Just like if you side with Jess as Matt in the begging, despite him abandoning Emily, she still gonna care for him, even when she called him "sack of shit" for that. And the other way around.
i vaguely remember Ashley wont open the door for Chris if he tried to shoot her at the 2nd trap, i always took it as a revenge for having "betrayed" her
This is probably the best Until Dawn video essay I've seen! Love this game as well as the others from supermassive and shocked you have less than a 100 subs still! Stoked to watch this channel grow and see the videos you release! +1 sub!
@@heyfuturesoul I watched all the rest of your dark pictures videos too. Great job! I can’t wait for you to tackle the quarry! I love it just as much as until dawn - maybe even more honestly.
One of the ways I interpreted as a reason behind Josh being so cruel to specifically Chris, as opposed to any of the others who were more involved in the prank, is because Chris is his best friend and someone he can project himself onto. So without having an outlet to release his anger and pain, he chose to torture the person closest to him in the group. Almost as a self-punishing thing. Chris was also drunk and passed out, like himself, and since he's trying to externally punish others for something he feels guilty for (not being awake to stop the prank or help) he's externally punishing the person most reflective of himself and the person he can project most onto. I dunno if anyone else has discussed this point before, but I think it's an interesting take!
You should play The Quarry, if not already. It has similar important decisions, mystery, quick time events, and tension that Until Dawn has. The characters are great, likeable ones and not so likeable ones, with good dialog options. The Quarry's version of "don't move" are not as good as actually not moving, but is pretty close to the overall tension. The chase scenes are crazy and the lore is great. This version of totems is surprisingly stressful. Definitely play if you haven't. Great video btw :)
I'm gonna have to say I personally don't think it's that good. Spoiler warning ⚠️ I think the game was rushed. Some of the animations are terrible, its way too dark during the majority of scenes, streaming mode doesn't even work to change out the copyrighted music. They rehash far too many twists from Until Dawn, like the misdirection of the Hackett Family even though we can figure out pretty early on that they're not a threat. I will admit their later betrayal is actually really good though. The "monster" is revealed too early and the design of the dogs/werewolves is pretty lackluster. They don't make enough use of the mines/rum tunnels under the Hackett House. We also barely get to explore the Hackett House! The scene with Ryan, Laura and Chris when they find him chained in the attic should've 100% been in the final game. Eliza and Silas are completely underutilized and I feel like the curse should've gone back WAY further than 6 years because otherwise the history of the Hackett's is rendered useless/unnecessary information. Give Eliza a more tangible tie to the Hackett's, make her Septimus' jilted lover or make it so that she used to run rum for the Hackett's during prohibition by selling it via her travelling sideshow. Like, any connection other than a random circus sideshow just happening to come to this tiny town. There should be a way to keep Kaylee alive because there's no reason why we can save Caleb but not Kaylee. And I know the ending podcast is supposed to be "quirky" and "weird" but it was just obnoxious and I really wanted to see what the characters had to say after surviving the night. We can still have the choices of the Hackett's being charged or the teens being charged depending on how much evidence you collect. That was a great concept! I just feel like there was so much missed potential with certain plot points snd character motivations.
@@ayshaj1088 it's decent, there's just a lot of missed potential. I feel like Until Dawn has a very cohesive story from start to finish and it answers almost all of the questions the players wanted to know about.
I'd like to touch on what you said about Sam. She is the golden girl who can do no wrong. Yes, because every single one of the characters in this game is a horror movie chiché and Sam is "the final girl". Explaining to whoever needs it, "The final girl" is a recurring trope in horror movies where, towards the end of the story, a female character emerges as the last survivor to confront and defeat the antagonist or threat. Typically, she's portrayed as resourceful, resilient, and often more virtuous than other characters, making her the symbolic embodiment of "good" triumphing over evil. Sam is the textbook example of the final girl, as such I find it completelly understandable that she doesn't see much development through the story, since she is the only trope who is supposed to be virtuous from the get-go. By the way, I think this trope was geniously translated for the branching narrative format. Sam's very first death opportunity is waaaaay at the climax of the story, thus Sam is also THE character who is guaranteed to survive the longest. Her death also always results in Mike's death, stablishing her as the most vital piece in the chessboard.
Even if i don't like Ashley, i kind of respect how she's got her own reaction to the traumatizing night everyone is going through But what i felt was a missed opportunity was that she turns hostile towards Chris if you choose to shoot her, regardless of whether you pointed the gun at yourself FIRST, then heard her plead to kill her instead. I felt like that would have been an impressive subversion, where firing at her only would've had that massive relationship drop if you either didn't hesitate to shoot her or didn't do something that made her say to kill her instead. Cause if she says that, then you fire at her, and she reacts like you're an awful person by basically getting you killed, it's more than a little jarring
I feel like it should have been a thing since there are 2 opportunities to betray Ashley- If you save her from the saw and don’t shoot her-her and Chris kiss If you save her for one but not the other-she doesn’t leave Chris out in the cold but they also don’t smooch, she is bitter but not vindictive If you betray her both times-she won’t open the door at all
Great video, but I feel like the biggest weakness of the game was left out and that being the lack of. Consequence in some sections- for example in chapter 9 when Mike goes back to the abandoned hospital- it is impossible for you to get him killed. There are free windigo every corner but he gets plot armor in this section even if you fail every single quick time event. This is the second to last chapter of the game and he is an important character to the last chapter but there should have been a way to continue the story with a way for him to die to make the stakes higher. Sam also has plot armor until the last chapter when Matt and Jess are side lined the last half of the game. I wish we could have seen more character interactions after what they’ve been through especially with Jess and matt and the other characters. I also strongly believe there should have been a challenging but possible way to save josh too. It is seen that he is in a horrible mind set due to being treated for the wrong condition so him getting the worst ending especially after all the trauma he’s had seems backwards. He is in the wrong for all he has caused but him having the most gruesome death, and his BEST ending is him becoming a wendigo after his sisters both died and he has to deal with possible schizophrenia gives the wrong message about mental health. Love Until dawn so much though and some of these changes would probably have made the development time much much longer so just personal issues I had
The actors who played Josh and Matt were born in 1981 and 1994 respectively. With most of the cast in the 1990 range, I think this age difference also contributes a lot to how they interact with each other and the way we see them. “Chris” is a decade older than “Matt.” It’s really interesting to me since I always saw Matt as being younger and now I know why
Oh my gosh, it feels great to hear someone else agree that Ashley is pretty shit. I remember the exact moment my dislike for Ashley solidified was when Chris asks her about her involvement in the prank that led to Hannah's disappearance and her response is "It takes two to tango." She is essentially shifting the blame off from herself onto Hannah. If you check her character traits after choosing that dialogue, HONEST goes up. This scene also made me respect Chris even more cause he doesn't let that response slide and is rather put off by Ashley's selfishness, despite his crush on her + Ashley's relationship status with Chris goes down. Ashley is truly somewhat of a wolf in sheep's clothing if you choose the more evil dialogue that makes her honesty go up, I feel that's something that a lot of players miss when playing Until Dawn for only a single time.
i mean hannah did try to sleep with her friends boyfriend, i took it as a hint to that. tho i do agree she can be distasteful, thats kind of what makes it interesting, the fact that none of the characters are without fault (except sam lol)
Wish we got more Jessica and Emily content together in the mines they could have owned up to their mistakes with one another or showed worry for both Matt and mike while trying to survive together I think they could have worked out their differences or Trauma bonded in some way because near the end of the game Jessica seems the most traumatized
i honestly never cared for chris but i for some reason have never thought about his personality shifting. i’ve never stopped to think about how he just becomes serious and apathetic, and i’ve also never seen anyone talk about it. i must say though i was a bit surprised you didn’t really comment about jess’s major character change as similarly to chris but worse, she shuts down and is completely traumatized and has a hard time responding. i really enjoyed this video!!
i also think this game does a really good job of making you chose NOT to do something! like mike and that creepy hand thing, or ashley following who she thinks is "jess", and even the whole don't move mechanic, it just adds so much to how you think about the game and the characters tbh! so often games encourage you to explore everything and leave no stone unturned, so to actively choose not to do things because that could lead to a character getting killed is just incredibly clever and i'm really glad they continued this to some extent in the dark pictures anthology as well as the quarry!! anyway i totally love your analysis of these games!!! 🐾
"UNDERSTAND THE PALM OF MY HAND BITCH!" Still the best line of the game and Ashley absolutely had that shit coming especially because the Stranger had literally just told them that bites aren't infectious AND she had the book. But I absolutely agree with Ashley being my least favorite character. She was absolutely cold blooded towards Chris in the ending where she kills him especially considering that she told him to let her sacrifice herself. Emily is a queen! Jessica is also one of my favorites because I can absolutely sympathize with a girlie who overcompensates for her insecurities.
I was OBSESSED with this game years ago. I wrote a little game book for an art project. It was a game guide as to how to save each character and wrote where every clue is. As someone who was obsessed with this game as well, I think you may enjoy Detroit Become Human, and The Quarry! Detroit Become Human definitely has the most pathways you can take of any game I've played. Its also the most beautiful game I've played (also starring Jesse Williams, if you've seen Greys Anatomy you'll recognize him). And The Quarry seems to an overall upgrade from Until Dawn, as a similar horror cliche game with lore behind it and more possible endings! But definitely a similar vibe, teens in the woods with a lodge, clues, relationships with each other, the supernatural, and a bigger picture. I love seeing people love on this game the way i do! Great video!
I'm SO glad I'm not the only one that dislikes Ashley. I have disliked her for YEARS. You and other comments put it so well so I won't repeat, but she IS incredibly inconsiderate after the Wendigos are revealed!!
1st playthrough I managed to save everyone up until that very last choice and ended up burning them all alive lmao it killed me. They really punish you for trying to get away from any uncomfortable play. That "dont move" part is utterly terrifying and brilliant. They are releasing a new enhanced version for the ps5 and I will be getting it for sure.
I think that Chris using those phrases like “us” or “we” symbolizes his empathy he has towards the group. And him trying to help them not feel alone in a moment of complete remorse and guilt.
finally another person likes emily!!!!!! i catch so much shit for loving her, but with how many times they tried to kill her - she became the most badass final girl
5:28 same! Winter has always had an interesting place in my heart, maybe because I live in a country where it's summer year round. It's also why I like the song Ditto so much
45:15 i think josh had more planned during the night, and he separated everyone to be able to play out his prank's plot in controlled environments. jess and mike going to the cabin was planned- there were pop up scare pranks along the way, after all. maybe the end goal was to recreate the original prank (recording them unknowingly during an intimate moment), then scaring them outside, alone in the dark and cold... just like how his sisters felt a year ago. while chris/ashley and sam got the most attention and harrassment at the beginning of the night, they were actually the safest; they were in the house, being chased by a person who didn't actually intend to kill them. being out in the forest though... that's how people die. it's backwards, and irrational, and still did them harm- but josh's prank had the two people he was closest to, and the two people least involved with the prank, chris and sam, inside, in the warm, coming out in the final prank video looking like a big hero who saves his crush and a kickass Final Girl... give or take a bit of mental trauma on the side. (dont ask me anything about emily and matt please im begging you i dont k no w)
Matt and Em were definitely sent outside on purpose. My guess: Josh yanked Emily's bag on purpose and just hid it, and that caused the two to go look and find the pig on a stick, and go back into the lodge. I think the two were supposed to be separated from Chris and Ash, and have Emily get tortured similar to Ash since she was the most unapologetic about the prank besides Ashley.
Oh thank god. I hated Ashley. Emily owned what she was. Ashley is one of those back stabbing type people. Like someone who would lie to your face and not feel bad at all. Amazing video btw!
@@willfanofmanyii3751 omg really?? Like it’s been a long time since I played the game and I’m horrible at it but I intentionally got her killed off just because she was so awful. Like it did not feel like she was in shock with the Chris situation. It felt very calculated, and she even shoot him a glare. Like also the whole beginning of that game with that prank on Hannah was just gross but I mean I get that’s the point of the game but still I couldn’t imagine doing that to someone who’s my friend and he was nice enough to invite me to their super nice ass private mountain lodge.
@@crinklescat1871 There is a scene where Ashley wanted Chris to stay inside the cabin regardless if Chris shot her or not. Ashley may have done it out left Chris outside due to trauma as suggested by the achievements. So far Ashley's compassionate meter can still remains high even if honesty meter goes down. Not only that Ashley's compassion meter raises even if she is not honest suggesting she was trying to act considerate despite not being a reflection of her feelings. Ashley is not as terrible as she did terrible things out of trauma rather than being herself. There are people who are honest but are terrible because they want to be catered to and acted that way while being mentally sane. Ashley is more virtuous than them as she at least tries doing the right thing despite being scared and dishonest for example she was thinking Jessica needed help and goes after her despite it being the wendigo.
@@patrickmarquez8307 it’s kinda of cool that this game is so good we are all able to talk about how the characters literally change due to the amount of trauma they faced. Like in the quarry i didn’t feel this way. I only got invested in dylan and katlyn. But regardless, I’m sorry I just hated Ashley. I have watched many endings and her interview if she lives after leaving Chris to die is hard. And she if does try to save Jessica she dies(that’s how I killed her off) Good game and good comment section. I loved the game but by the ending I definitely had some deep thoughts watching those kids be interviewed. But even if everyone lives (except poor Josh , even as a wenidgo ) the ending still feels so damn bleak.
@@crinklescat1871 Until Dawn is good game, although I have to admit that the game is not perfect. This does not mean I hate it. So far I think Emily was the worst as she hope Matt dies and can lie to the police because Matt did not cater towards her feelings and she did it while not being mentally scarred. Emily just never cares for people she hates even though they tried to help her, she can just witness Matt trying to save her but she thinks it's fine to insult him and say to the police he left her to die even if he did not. There are fictional characters and real people who have done worse things than Emily but never excuse how she would have behaved because they learned from their mistakes. Ashley was problematic and not excusable but she can recover and change from it even though not everything can be reversed, she is just like Josh. One problem I have with Ashley's writing is that she can find clues that Josh is the killer in the gameplay, but Sam is always programmed to explain the clues related to Josh despite it only being Ashley and/or Chris finding the clues which makes finding clues as them pointless. Anyways when it comes to Emily she continues to act bad because her feelings never catered and her behaviour is equivalent to an narcissist. When it comes to narcissist just because they actually feel bad does not mean they changed even if they did helpful stuff. I like how smart she is but the way she treated Matt and act angry all the time things don't go her way before things gotten bad is a huge red flag. I like flawed characters but I think Emily is kind of a bad example of how to write a flawed character with feelings. She is entertaining but from a story standpoint making a smart character being less sympathetic for the majority of the game makes her less redeemable. I have seen smart characters who are flawed but them acting sympathetic makes you appreciate them more besides their intelligence, which gives them more depth and less predictability then a smart person who just wants their feelings to be catered. Sorry for the long comment, you are free to disagree. I just want to express myself.
Thing with Sam, is that you do need to have a character like her in the story to keep things balanced and levelled. The other characters all have very strong personalities, you need someone who is more quietly competent to help the others make it out alive.
i don't LIKE ashley, but i like that she exists in the game as someone to dislike. she makes you raise your eyebrows, like. girl. there's something going on in you that wouldn't really come out if not for the fact that you're in this situation.
That jumpscare at 48:22 was absolutely feral! I still vividly remember my first playthrough of this exact moment. Had both my housemates with me watching along and suggesting what choices we made and played it in the pitch black. Came to that crossroad and was like "Which way? Which way?!" and they were just like choose one, I just default went right and when it jumped right out at the screen at us blasting its screech through the surround sound we all simultaneously screamed so loud 😂 Felt like I almost had a heart attack and my hands would not stop shaking so I was glad they gave us a moment before doing the next keep still section. But as you said, this game was truly special and was a lot of fun looking up all the different outcomes that could happen instead online after playing.
If emily’s perception of matt is high enough, matt can choose to jump to safety straight away instead of choosing to save emily at the firetower and by the end of the game emily will still be fond of matt and ask if he’s okay no matter what. This way you can keep emily from being bitten (because she has the flare gun if you choose to give it to her), Matt is safe until the final chapter and both seemingly still maintain their relationship after the events of the mountain have taken place and of course if they both survive Until Dawn. (Would be quite awkward though😅)
Well done video. Good commentary. You have some spots where it seems like you misspoke, but that actually makes it feel more personal so not a problem. I hope you make more videos soon.
Thank you I’m so happy you liked it! I’m glad my mistakes aren’t too bad for you. I never realized how often I trip over my words until I started making videos😅 I try my best to post a new video once a week on either Friday or Saturday with a video game discussion being once a month:) thanks again for the support!
@@heyfuturesoul I really just meant it as a like "something to look out for in scripting," and hopefully it didn't make you feel self conscious. Like both wendigo and deer are pluralized as wendigo and deer. You have a nice voice to passively listen to, and considering how new your channel is, you did a really amazing job.
Thank you for the feedback:) I really appreciate it because your guys second set of eyes help point me in the right direction to improve and better the content. I am so happy that you liked the video
I've been looking for a good Until Dawn video essay to slap on while I'm working, and the intro to this already has me hooked! Can't wait to watch your other Dark Pictures videos! :D
Don't move feature is great - when you play a lot of games, quick time events become kinda trivial, even in stressful situations. But that don't move moments - I've never seen that before and legit panicked the first time) very immersive Sucks that you saw playthrough before playing. I guess I got lucky - didn't know anything about the game and played with group of friends in the middle of the night, first playthrough for everybody, we just had nothing to do and stumbled upon it in ps store. WTF moments, crazy twists, everybody screaming what to do and passing controller after every chapter - that's definitely unique experience
Great video! I 100% agree that this game is phenomenal and it’s story and experience is why. A few things -Jess can show remorse for the prank if you find the yellow tape and Mike asks what she remembers? -Ashley isn’t mean to Chris in the mines, if she asserts that he stays with them she’s doing it because she doesn’t want him to stay behind by himself.
🐾 Loved this video, I was always a huge fan of the game and watched as many playthroughs as I could. Loved the analysis of the game and characters, can't wait to see more from you :)
I just found this and I love it, many good points I never thought about! I watched play throughs in 2014 and just now got to play for myself recently and I have to say Ashley got on my nerves playing for myself rather than watching others playing her. I wish Matt and Jess had more time on screen
I did not have a PS4 or a PS5 so I only watched TH-camrs playing the game. Because of its in-depth immersive feelings, that don't move feature latched onto me too. My heartbeat was pounding like crazy while waiting for the don't move feature to fade again. The climax of the story, where they have to escape the cabin was the most nerve-wracking for me.
huh ive played this game so many times and I'm just learning that matt can survive the wendigo after trying to save emily twice, wow this game continues to teach me new things
When I first watched/played Until Dawn myself, I absolutely loved Ashley and really hated Emily. Now several years later, I can appreciate that most of these characters are more complex than they first let on. I don't hate any of them. Ashley is still my favorite, but now rather than just saying "no she's a sweetheart!" when people don't like her because of the locking Chris out thing, I can say "yeah, she's the character where fear and a need to survive bring out the worst in her." Morally, not great at all, but from a writing/character analysis standpoint, really interesting.
Loved the video the audio is a little bit silent though compared to other youtube videos. I can turn up the volume no issue I just wanted to mention it since I noticed it ^^
Thanks for this video, it really brought me back to when me and my friends all sat around the TV, playing the game, and watched the game like it was a movie. 🐾
🐾 I agree so much with pretty much all your takes. This was a pleasure to watch. Also, as a fellow Emily stan and Ashley hater I completely agree that the best moment is that slap scene hahahah. Just thought I’d mention that Matt doesn’t have to attempt saving Emily twice for her to still like him in the end credits. I had heard a rumor that was possible, so I tried since I wanted a «perfect» ending. Reading a guide showing every relationship-outcome from the decisions in the game I managed to do it hahah. Considered that ending perfect cause if she keeps the gun she can avoid getting bit by the Wendigo, which means she won’t have friends point a gun at her and suggest shooting her or sending her out. More harmony in the group after this traumatic night
I'm not really a fan of these kind of multiple choice/branching narrative games because the sheer complexity of making them means that most of the time their characters or plot are really shallow and the characters aren't acting or talking like real people (like to save time/effort they just went with stereotypes or character tropes rather than build a personality for each person). Until Dawn is honestly the only exception to this that I've found. The quality of its character building is honestly impressive, if a bit uneven as you pointed out. It was really interesting to hear your opinions and experiences as someone who clearly does connect with this style of game. Also, I appreciate the Gab Smolders rep in this. She's such a good youtuber and is vastly underrated. I love that with each of these games she does 3 full playthroughs so we can see her blind reaction, all the bad endings, and all the good endings. ❤🐾 (it's a dang crime that more people haven't fully watched through the outro for this video. It's damn well done and there should be more pawprints supporting it in the comments!)
I remember watching so many different youtubers play this game when it released and sometimes I even rewatch those playthroughs again. But finally this year, I played the game myself for the first time (with a friend of course, I'm too scared to play alone). And I actually managed to get some interactions and events to happen that I had never seen before! Also since I already knew the story it was a blast having my friend going back and forth on if Josh was still alive or not xD
I saw someone online theorize that the reason Josh targets Chris and Sam more than the others actually involved with the prank, is that he is intentionally pushing away the people who are closest to him, especially with chris testing to see if chris actually cares for him in this self destructive way. To be honest I don't necessarily believe this entirely, I think it more could be an oversight in the plot, but I do like the theory.
the thing with Ashely is that the hate was a slow build with the bite argument being the final push. All throughout Ashley has just been constantly whiny character she doesn't really have a moment were she shuts up and does something like the other characters. her closest claim to fame is if you stab Josh with the scissors. vs Mikes whole action hero through the asylum. Emily escape in the caves Sam had a slow start but she was a vital leader near the end with helping mike, and willingly being the last one out to flick the switch. Chris attempt to save josh despite everything and his shoot off with the wendigos. And Matt and Jessica while not as big had the quiet escape in the mines. And I'm not denying her response wasn't reasonable as I'm sure half the people who hate her if they were in the same situation would be acting the same if not worse. but were not her and were not in her situation were outside observers playing an character. Who you like on screen and who you like in person are two separate categories. Its annoying when the character you have to play is doing nothing but whinging every moment on screen, it doesn't endure you to them. Also people tend to dislike false characters over rude ones. Emily and Jessica are rude upfront so you know what you getting and you find secret sweetness (jessica) or badass competence (Emily.) Were as Ashely has a much more sweet and timid nature at the beginning that combined with everything above and how she goes straight to "Shooot heeerrr!" on Emily (despite the fact that Emily was legit holding a book on wendigo facts) it makes her seem fake which can leave a sour taste in the players mouth. and this is if you choose all her nice options in game. Choosing her bad options are a whole other story. Includding -refusing respnsibiliti and blaming the twins for thier death -getting chris killed -getting emily killed -getting herself killed via wendigo mimic (were she had to leave the group, and despite her jus reading about wendigo mimicry and mike saying that Jessica was dead. Yes it was in large part due to player choice, but when most other deaths are due to failed quick time/don't move events and hers was a simple don't go down the corridor with the suspicious voice, your just left asking why. second stupidest death is Matt attacking the herd)
So far, the regarding the twins Hannah should have known that going outside without proper clothes on would have gotten her injured or sick. Even a caring person can admit that Hannah was clearly not using her head, when she ran outside. While it is sad she disappeared it does not mean what she did was smart. Hannah atleast needed some criticism on what she chooses to do when she is upset. Not only that Ashley was a bystander so the prank would have still happened if Ashley choose to not get involved, Jessica and Emily are most responsible since the prank happened because of them. So far Chris promised Ashley he won't kill her, which means he broken his promise. So Ashley here is not the one to be fully blamed here. Not only that Chris can try to kill Ashley twice despite Josh giving him the illusion that he can kill Ashley. So Chris is really did not have the right intentions for Ashley. Ashley is a flawed character but there is so many misconceptions about the character due to the overwhelming amount of people hating on her. Until Dawn is a very flawed video game on how it portrays victims to the point that people would try to justify terrible traits of character the moment they have done cool stuff.
@@patrickmarquez8307 i have no problem with Hannah running outside without a jacket. Her and her family visited the cabin frequently so she most likely knew the immediate area well. And she stayed on the well-defined path meaning she wont get lost easily. And i highly doubt she was planing to stay outside for the entire night. She just needed to get away for a moment. And she would have been fine if not for the supernatural creature chasing them, bad luck that would have happened regardless of jacket or no jacket. Ashley may not have been the ring leader of the prank but she was still an active participant, not some innocent bystander. She was laughing with the rest of them. Chris and Ashleys ‘cause of another characters death’ scenes were two different circumstances. Chris was essentially the trolly problem, someone was going to die regardless, he just had a choice on who. For the first choice between josh and Ashley the machine was already moving, either josh his best friend from grade school dies, or Ashley his high school crush. Even if he didn’t do anything someone would have wound up dead. He couldn't stop the machine, just change its course. As for the gun, table, chainsaw looming down on them. It was once again a someone’s going* to die regardless, either kill Himself, kill Ashley. Or do nothing and risk the saws above the head killing them both. Ashley on the other hand chooses not to open the door for Chris despite there being plenty of time. And shes the one to immediately call for Emily's head when the bite is noticed despite the fact that there was a book on facts right in Emily's hands. And they had no reason to believe a bite changes. The main dilemma with these choice driven games when it comes to characters is that a persons choice defines who they are. And when you have choices that bounce between saving someone or letting them die it greatly affects the character your playing as, even the Dialouge options. For Ashley when she watch the film of the prank with Chris and he comments how he forgot how involved she was your giving two dialouge options for ashley. 1. Were she takes the blame and admitted what they did was awfull. 2. Were she puts the blame back on Hannah, saying ‘it was just a prank’ Naturally one would endure you to her character more than the other. And depending on player choice, can make the player more naturally acclined to like and forgive Ashley when out-of-player-hands actions are taking or more likely to blame her. I have no problem with Ashley as a person per se but as a character you have to play, shes not fun. And in my original comment i just listed why the player would slowly grow to dislike Ashley despite the fact she usually has an initial positive reception.
@@HelloJellojrl While she did not know any better. Going outside at a snowy night without a jacket is just you asking to get potentially harmed more when something else besides a supernatural creature ends up hurting you. Her knowing the path won't really mean she would be okay. Even Beth finds that Hannah running away in the snow at night is problematic. Knowing the path way does not guarentee she would be fine. Not only that there were other things that would have hurt Hannah despite her family knowing the whole area. Ashley being a bystander does not really affect how you were treated by the prank that was caused by the ringleader. Nothing would be fixed if you just blamed the bystanders as majority of the time, you would have done the same when someone else is targeted. As it makes no difference if they are present or not as the problem would still have occured. But the only difference is that you may not have done what the ring leader caused. Not only that you can't blame a bystander or the ringleader when you decided that the ringleader should deal with you making a mistake (Hannah deciding to have sex and try to have an intimate relationship with Mike who is already in a relationship.) While it is wrong for the prank to happen, you still deserve blame for you choosing to try to have a relationship with someone already who has a partner. Hannah is not that innocent on this either. Dying does not change how you acted when you are alive, even when you don't deserve it. Chris and Ashley shotgun scene is not really a trolley problem as one person dies in each decision where there are no benefits to either decision. That also includes the saw scene between Ashley and Josh, which is basically who do you like more or who would you benefit from more. Also Chris choosing between him or Ashley is choosing between being selfish or be selfless. This makes it a decision on whether you really are a good person or not. If you choose to shoot Ashley, Chris is basically a dirty coward who is willing to choose himself over doing the right thing that he himself acknowledging by promising he won't shoot Ashley. A trolley problem is basically choosing one person to stay alive vs multiple people staying alive. It's not choosing between one person or another person that makes it a trolley problem, it's whether you are willing to save multiple people over one person that makes it a trolley problem. Ashley never advocated for Emily to die as she just wanted her to be kicked out. Mike was the one who wanted Emily to die, Ashley never mentioned anything about killing Emily. Its a huge misconception that Ashley wants Emily to be shot.
i’m loving this video!! this is also my favorite game and seeing this analysis in 2023 makes my heart warm ❤️ also its very well done!! got a subscriber from me!
Really excited to hear your thoughts on the Quarry! Your analysis and criticisms were really enjoyable, and you clearly know when to include scenes and audio to support your points Just a note - quarry is pronounced kind of like a mix between "story" and "sorry", not like "wary"! But again, I'm excited to see your review, especially after working through your dark pictures videos 🐾
As someone who likes these SM games a lot and especially Until Dawn, I'm glad I stumbled upon this video. I can't get enough content about this game especially. Hopefully the Lord will bless us with another UD contender.
Ok, two things for me first, about the doll house it means that Josh, or at least his dad, had cameras around the house because there isn't any other way for Josh to know everybody's places in the room during the prank and two, personally It seemed that no one regretted what happened because of the joke that went so wrong even though the dialogues try to make it appear that way and the ending, at least for me, is the one where no one survives.
50:16 THE QUARRY WAS SOOOO GOOD TOO. 5 of my friends and I played it together in one living room so we wouldn't feel scared. And dam, I loved the characters just as much. And i fucked up a few gun shots 😭 it was HARD to keep them alive
One thing that I’ve heard is that in an earlier draft of the game’s script, Chris was a very active participant of the first prank. It explains why he was getting tortured so harshly
The way the plot of that is now, I can imagine they changed it to he stayed behind to get Josh drunk so he wouldn't beat them up or whatever when he found out. But then if this is true, they don't clarify it later, so it's only good as a headcanon...
@@thunderclanwarrior1253the way he get ash feel guilty " you were really involved" when she was not always made me a little mad, nlw you'r saying that he did worst then her ?
@@thunderclanwarrior1253it seems like a stretch though. Chris seems to care a bit too much to deliberately get Josh drunk for a prank of embarrassing his sister. Their is no real evidence he was involved. Chris seems like a fairly chill guy, and deeply cared about Josh. It’s possible, but it doesn’t seem that likely
@@chriswilliams4700 That's very true. he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to go through with the prank if he thought they would torment Hannah so much. Maybe they lied and said they would do something silly, like draw on Josh's face if he got him passed out, but like you said there's no evidence in the dialogue or story to suggest that.
@@thunderclanwarrior1253 Why would he do that? They just got drunk; nothing more. There's even a good chance they never brought up the prank with Josh.
It always baffles me that no one mentions the fact that Hannah was by no means innocent. She took the first chance to sleep with her friends boyfriend. As soon as she got the chance she was taking her clothes off knowing that Mike was dating her friend. By no means did she deserve the horrors that befell her but the prank wouldn’t have worked if she wasn’t such a terrible friend. I think that the fact literally everyone knew she wanted to be with Mike goes to show she was never subtle about her feelings.
Thank you!!! Agreed 100%, she didn't deserve to become a wendigo, but she was so quick to be like, "WhAt aRe YoU gUyS DoInG?? wHaT ThE HeCk!" And play the victim when she was literally just about to play homewrecker with her "friend's" boyfriend. Idk how "naive" she is, she knew what she was doing was wrong.
YES
NONE of the characters are innocent. Also, what did you expect when they pulled the prank on HER, AND she was naive? Her having a crush on Mike wasn't the problem and the note was written for her to come to HIM. I highly doubt she wanted to steal Mike away from Emily--although obviously she would be the better choice in that--or maybe didn't know they were dating, or that Mike would be open to a one-stand or something. Either way, she was still recorded AND Mike played a part in the prank.
@@monsterhanna6691 Beth is innocent. Stan Beth. Queen Beth.
Hannah and Sam wear the same bracelet.
Hannah dressed as Beth asks a not drunk Josh what did our little sister get herself into?
That's Beth getting pranked.
She runs out the door hoping Mike will follow.
Hannah, Josh, and Beth.
The clue in the library. He has waited 16 years for *little" Hannah
He knows they have been switching roles.
Look at the clues. Chris and Josh were not drunk
It's a story of redemption. Mike and Emily become Nathan Drake and Laura Croft. Why?
Because the mountain energy is supporting them.
Mike knows what's outside the cabin Hannah was supposed to kill it. Let's just say sometimes a lunatic wendigo that skins women, eats organs, and makes zombies sometimes takes over Josh's body and mind.
Pay attention when he drag's Sam away.
And your favorite Chris is an evil fuck. He says "We" because he helped that night.
The thing I think is genius about Emily in the mines is that when you find that first totem in the lodge it’s of her dying by the explosion or fire. And you don’t know where that scene is going to happen the first time you play. So when you’re in the mines and she’s constantly surrounded by fire I think that also does a lot of good work on getting you to care about her.
Mhm and all you can do with Ashley is try not to let her murder people
Yah I wish Jessica was utilized more and maybe met up with Emily in the mines they could have built their relationship more or maybe not but try to survive together maybe even sharing their worries for mike and Matt or realizing how dumb it was to fight considering the situation
@@kneehighgloves8551 The first thing I want if we ever get a remaster is Jess & Emily meeting in the mines, it would've been cool to see them have to work together.
@@fishtailsaucehonestly genius thought
I think another thing that makes Josh so sympathetic is that he's schizophrenic. Not ONLY that, but he was misdiagnosed and being prescribed the wrong medicine by Dr. Hill. Dr.Hill isn't trained to treat or even spot schizophrenia, so he prescribed Josh a general antidepressant, which obviously didn't help him, causing Josh to take MANY pills to try and help his hallucinations, which ended in him stopping taking his pills all together.
While Josh isn't excused from his actions by any means, it's still so sad to learn just how much he was failed by the people who were supposed to help him.
(This is all learned via receipts and papers lying around in the cabin basement btw, in case anyone wanted to know where to find this info :D)
Sone part of me wonder if Josh never told Dr Hill about the hallucinations.
Maybe he thought the hallucinations was real since from what I heard, Schizophrenic couldn't tell reality from hallucination. He might actually thought his sisters ghost was actually haunting him and blaming him for his death.
What's actually even worse is that the treatment for general depression is antidepressants which work by increasing neurotransmitters like Serotonin and Dopamine in the brain. Schizophrenia is caused and exacerbated by an imbalance of Dopamine and Serotonin which means the meds he was being prescribed were not only not helping but actively making the problem worse
@@gerstein03was looking for this comment. I was incorrectly diagnosed as bipolar 1 and the meds caused me to get so much worse.
I feel for Josh. He was going through so much hell.
While I don’t think Sam has the same amount of character growth/regression as Emily or Ashley, I do think she has a good bit of complexity to her. The most visible time in the game to see this is in the end credits (if you save Sam, obviously). Throughout the game we see Sam being a headstrong leader (along with Mike) and keeping her composure (though both of them look physically exhausted towards the end of the game). But at the very end, you see her fall apart, but it’s not in the same way you see Jess fall apart. Instead of looking vulnerable, she seems to shut down and look more stoic than ever which is an unhealthy reaction to the trauma she had just faced. Her relationship with Josh was also very complicated and became more so after everything he did. She felt extremely betrayed. I think her and Chris took Josh’s betrayal the hardest because they were the closest with Josh.
The night these characters faced really did get a hold of all of them in one way or another.
Yes that's something I noticed was kind of missing from this video. When Sam and Josh go to the basement to repair the boiler au the start of the game they have excellent chemistry and seem to be flirting a bit as well. And like you said during the credits she mentions she thought that they were close and feels very betrayed
I love Sam because she was the only one who showed much kindness to Josh (except chris but he was obsessed with ashley). It was nice to have a character who wasn't caught up in the love triangles and she felt the most clear-headed. Also she's a badass in the end scene in the cabin.
At first, I really disliked Josh, but the more I learned about him, the sadder I got... Some people did some research on the medical files you can find in-game, and it's fairly obvious he was given the wrong treatment for his mental illness. We can assume he doesn't really have any support system either. Paired with the intense trauma and anxiety, it's no surprise he went into full psychosis by the end of the game...
And what makes him more relatable is that people get misdiagnosed all the time.
The fact that I HATED Emily at first but then fell in love with her when I realized how much of a badass she is
Same! Like honestly, she’s VERY intelligent and has, I would say, the second best or even THE best survival-instinct.
That part where she shoves Ashley out of the way in the lodge had me rolling! 😂😂😂
In ONE scene when she was saving herself and didn't bother to help anyone else, while also yelling at Matt who was trying to save her, made him out as murderer/idiot, got heated about Mike ALMOST shooting her when he had a good reason to, and just never shut up regardless of what was happening. Out of all the characters, Emily is the most detestable; and none of the characters are that bad at all.
@@AustinWalkerN7 For no fucking reason when Ashley didn't do anything wrong. Nobody wanted Emily to die or get shot, yet she pushes her "friend" in the way as Wendigoes are chasing after them?
@@deranged_miyeon_stan In one fucking scene. 😂
42:26 Chris was actually part of the prank initially. In a demo shown at Gamescom in August 2014 a model of him can be seen with the other characters when Ashley finds the doll house in the basement. They probably removed his involvement late into development and didn't have time to remove all of the dialogue where he mentions his participation. This explains why Josh is so focused on pranking Chris, he probably viewed his involvement as a more personal betrayal since the two of them have been best friends since the 3rd Grade. In the final game where Chris isn't involved you could explain Josh's behaviour due to his trauma and mental state. He feels extreme guilt over not being able to save his sisters and unfairly blames Chris for getting him black out drunk at the party that night, thus choosing him as the main target for his revenge prank a year later.
If you also add in that all Josh wanted to do was make the others feel as helpless has he and his sisters had that night, it makes sense that even if all Chris did was get Josh black out drunk, that Josh would feel like he might have been the most helpless (as in he couldn't help) only because of Chris.
So, giving Chris (who was Josh's best friend at the time) a few incidents where he could make choices where he is very helpless and left to either die or kill, leaves Chris as helpless as Josh felt last year (and possibly for the last year). Add onto that that Chris isn't shown to have kept up with Josh at all, he might have felt abandoned on top of everything.
Josh loses his sisters because of his idiotic friends, his mental state gets worse and then Chris (his long time best friend) seem to just leave him alone, his mental state gets worse and he might have been misdiagnosed (MatPat pointed this out, but I do believe it because the syndromes simply makes more sense for schizophrenia than deep depression). Then, because he isn't thinking clearly (and possibly that his parents ain't helping him outside of sending him to a therapist/physiologist), he makes dumb choices leading to the whole big plan.
Josh wasn't I this to hurt anyone, just make them understand how lonely and heartbroken their little "prank" made him feel and Chris, having been his best friend, should have been there for him
@@JDM-is-my-nameone of the best comments about Josh I've read- you get it! Reading this was like breathing fresh air thank you 😅
(No real shade to those who don't understand Josh's motivations, I think the devs could have done more to characterize and humanize him, but it makes me very sad)
I think the reason that Chris and Ashley were made the “stars” of Josh’s plan was because it really WAS supposed to be a prank that Josh wanted to capitalize on by making it a film after the fact. His father was a filmmaker after all. He wanted to make Chris the star because he’s his best friend and didn’t participate in the prank. At least that’s how I’ve always interpreted it.
That’s actually a genius interpretation 👏
It also seems like Chris trying to shoot him instead of Ashley or himself completely trashed whatever was left of his plan-like he may have had more gags set up and waiting for Mike and Jess that just fell through, because of both the Wendigo Curse *and* Chris' unexpected defiance.
Emily: the one character that LITERALLY can't get another character directly killed. She's my favorite and I'll DIE ON THIS HILL!!!
Same!
I think a few others cant but shes still my fav
@@mm34925hmm Mike can kill Emily, Matt can get Jess killed, Ashley can kill Chris, Chris gets the stranger killed if we want to count that, Sam can really kill everyone at the end, Josh can actually murder people depending on the ending, so maybe Chris but I’m not sure…
@@christalcavanaugh Chris can kill the squirrel, which in turn kills him no matter what you do.
You could count how if Matt tries to rescue her on the radio tower instead of jumping he gets killed by a wendigo
One of the biggest reasons why I love Until Dawn, is the twist villain. They set up so many hints throughout the story that still make sense for the red herrings, and when the twist happens it still makes perfect sense. Also the acting is actually pretty good.
I think the confusion behind Josh’s prank on his friends was intentional. Josh was passed out, he wouldn’t know who exactly was a part of the prank on his sisters or not. Also, he wasn’t on any meds and I think it’s meant to display how delusional he is at this point in the game. He was targeting the wrong people, so the irony of it shows you how messed up he is in the head.
Josh is my fav character btw. It really sucks that he’s the only character in the game that doesn’t get a happy ending even though he was probably suffering the most. He’s so well written man.
I would agree, but Ashley states that the dollhouse has everyone in their positions from the prank. But this might just be a plot hole by the game, cause if he didn't see the prank he wouldn't have known
@@1deron1 He watched the video tape? Idk maybe he thinks everyone was in on it regardless of whether they were in the room or not. The "everyone's against me" mentality 🤷♂
He saw the recording (if you'll recall, he even printed it to 8mm, both as a means to guilt Chris and Ash *and* to make one of the fake ghost projections). He also had access to several of the written correspondences between participants planning the prank ahead of time, which he also left around the chalet to further guilt-trip those who knew about the prank and did nothing to stop it.
He summed it up perfectly when he said he wanted them to experience exactly what his sisters went through: he wanted them to understand the depth of their guilt-and he wanted them to arrive at that conclusion on their own. In the tradition of the classic "prank-gone-wrong revenge" slashers of the eighties, the real revenge wasn't in physically attacking his targets-it was in making them see themselves for what they really are.
There's a 3rd ending in the remake where he lives without turning in wendigo
A small note on why people might like Sam;
She is our first character and she is also the one to flick the switch at the end.
She is the first and last character we have who are involved with the house story, so yeah, I do think that's part of why people like her.
We like our first characters and we like them because they are our first set of eyes.
Edit: auto correct can't spell
Plus.. Hayden ❤
She also seems the most decent person
The idea behind her character would make more sense if the game were set in the late nineties or early oughts. She takes a lot of cues from Kevin Williamson's neo-slasher heroines, particularly _Scream's_ Sydney Prescott-which was all the rage in the years between _I Know What You Did Last Summer_ and _Halloween: Resurrection,_ but fell out of style around the torture pr0n boom that followed _Saw._
Honestly, the most confusing part of Josh's whole charade was that he punished Sam, putting her through a terrifying night even though she tried to stop the prank against Hannah from the very beginning.
However, Josh really cares for her and shows it even when he shouldn't.
As Josh, her friend:
1) By leaving the hot water off, this gives him the opportunity to walk with Sam every step of the way through the basement, allowing her to become familiar with that environment. Even before he starts to walk her through the basement, he tells her how much he appreciates her.
2) Going down the stairs, he alerts her to the broken concrete near the bottom of the first flight. This ends up being one of the first Quick Time Event prompts in the sequence and it comes pretty quick.
3) He tells her several times that the basement is not a safe place to be alone. Initially, his motives for saying this are pretty straightforward: He doesn't want her or anyone else coming down here and discovering his plans or his set ups too early. He set up base inside that hotel area and doesn't want to be found out until his big reveal. But think of the other function of what saying this serves, spooking her.
Josh knows fear and what it can do. He knows that fear can bring people together and fear helps them survive. In fact, in the end of his plans when he's questioned by Chris and Mike on why he put his friends through so much fear he called himself a Healer because he knows how effective fear is to the human mind.
Fear puts you on high alert, making you more aware of your surroundings. By telling her that the basement isn't a safe place, this reinforces her fear later on when she's down there. If she at all felt safe she may not be as survival-minded. (An example of this would be near the end of Emily's Chapter 6 sequence when Emily is escaping the mines. As soon as she locks the door behind her, she thinks she's safe. This causes her to ignore the fact that the Wendigo can easily break through that door and kill her.) By telling Sam it's not safe down there, he's letting her know that he could come from any angle to get her and to be on alert once she's down there.
Subsequently, when Chris does scare her down there it brings out her resourcefulness by knocking over a mattress to impede Chris's movement. That was not in Josh's plan but he's glad he got to see how Sam would respond before the event.
4) The bat. It can't be said for sure whether or not he put it out in the open on purpose but if he was truly trying to harm her he would've thought to get rid of any weapons she may use against him.
You might think, well if you don't show it to him he keeps it locked away. This drives home my point, the bat was probably something that's been there for a while and was probably something he forgot was there. If you don't bring it up, he just locks it in there as usual. But if you bring his attention to it, he remembers that it's there and what it means to him. Knowing it's there, he doesn't put it back inside where it was - he lays it out in the open for anyone to grab and use. Again, if he truly wanted to harm Sam, he would've locked it away.
5) Leaving the basement, even though he's laughing with Sam and Chris about Chris's prank, his mind is still on making sure the whole process runs smoothly for Sam by placing the flashlight within her reach before she is supposed to enter the theater. Giving her a flashlight shows that he wants to make sure she can see where she's going even if she does reach the hotel section of the basement.
As the Pyscho:
1) Before the sequence begins he makes sure that her path in the dark cabin is very well lit by placing many many candles along the way as well as placing balloons with arrows to direct her in where she should go.
2) The candles and the door with no handle - this one may be a stretch. Having her grow accustomed to following light may have caused her to go to the door with no handle which may have been the direction he wanted her to run. He's definitely conflicted between truly wanting to catch her and ensuring her safety. He put the handle in view on top of something which allowed him some time to perhaps catch her before she finds the hotel area. If she did get the handle and got the door open, he knew that once she was in the hotel (where he's been setting up shop) he would be able to find where she is and finally get her.
Alternatively, if she went to the other door in the basement (the door that Chris and Ashley eventually go through) she would've found it locked and she would've gotten caught then and there. The door without the handle is a potential door. It can be opened in time. Having that door well lit may have cause her to run toward that light when she enters the basement. She even looks at the other door, rules it out in her head, and turns toward the door with no handle.
3) He's going after her very slowly. This shows he's chasing her more for effect than the result. He wants her to be scared and part of him wants her to get away. Ultimately, going slow also shows how confident he is that he will eventually catch her. If Sam keeps running he knows how to catch her and he does. But this isn't something he wants to do; when he's putting her to sleep he tells her, "I'm sorry."
If you do manage to hide from him successfully he's very openly frustrated. He truly intends to catch her. Not because he wants to, but to ensure her safety for the rest of the night. By putting her to sleep he can quickly use her to lure Chris and Ashley downstairs, but he then puts her in a room away from all of the horror he puts Chris and Ashley through. He ties her up but leaves the door unlocked allowing her another potential escape. This shows he doesn't really want to trap her, he just doesn't want her near what's going on outside. He also leaves Sam her backpack full of clothes right next to where she's tied up, which supports the theory of her capture being the endgame of the prank where she's concerned as /u/Urmull point out here. In his plan as he would reveal himself to Chris and Ashley, he probably would've gone to untie and apologize to Sam. She was just the bait.
In the end, he didn't put Sam through as much torture as he put Chris and Ashley through but he did cause her some trauma. What he did was not okay, but how he did it allows us to see a glimpse of his "loving" trait.
And to be honest, if Josh was allowed to carry out his plan flawlessly, he would be able to create the “real” horror film (I think it stems from him wanting to be more like his dad and possibly seeking his approval? just speculation from that baseball bat talk) he wanted where the friends he liked came out looking like heroes, and the ones he was mad at came out looking terrible. So Sam, innocent final girl; Chris, heroic lover who saves the girl. Mike and Jess would be classic “sluts,” and tbh he wouldn’t need to work hard to make Emily look bad with the way she treats Matt.
Remember, he said he was going to put it on the internet and they’d go viral; if Jess and Mike had a sex tape go viral on the internet it would haunt them for the rest of their lives, and Emily’s treatment of Matt would make her widely hated. Chris sacrificing himself to save Ashley (which Josh probably assumed he’d do) would make him an immediate hero; even if things didn’t work out for them in the long run, Chris would have those “good guy” points for the rest of his life. And worst case scenario, Sam just looks like a classic innocent victim who dies early on; if Josh convinced her to go along with it, she could easily be the heroic final girl who “defeats” the psycho.
Josh was a messed up character who suffered a lot and was a victim of malpractice and misdiagnosing. He really did not deserve his ending ;-;
I like your analysis!
I know this 3 months old but this is amazingly worded this is amazing and me really think differently of there relationship.
I ain’t reading allat
How refreshing and pleasant it is to read such extensive and interesting insights, thank you for sharing them with us!! 🙏🏻💐
Thanks for that analysis. I really enjoyed reading it
I love how games like Until Dawn and Detroit become Human really set the standarts for these kinds of choice games. I'm afraid to say that these two are the best games in this genre and it's really difficult to surpass those two
I think one thing about Emily I made note of is she was Mikes original gf that everyone wanted and although Hannah was obvious leading to her downfall. Jess clearly was more low key if she ended up with him a year later. So she essentially had two friends/peers want her bf at the same time. One successfully snagging him while the other presumably died over the ordeal. Like that’s crazy. I’d be bitter too 😂 I honestly would’ve loved to see Emily and Jess ultimately put aside the beef and work together to escape the mines than Matt and Jess.
Yes! I constantly see people say Emily is awful for how she treats others but it’s very clear to some those she considered friends both liked Mike, likely even while dating. Hannah was never subtle, enough that us was very clear for Jess to plan the prank which likely indicates to a level she also liked him with just a better chance of hiding it. Given the events that would likely have had to a certain level a traumatic feeling to the lodge already it makes sense as to why Emily isn’t in the best of moods there. I’d assume the prank is what would have placed the seeds to the break up, then have your ex start dating your friend who planned a lot of the prank, and then be left in a creepy house with nothing really working- damn I’d feel the same way as Emily.
It just is that to me, Emily comes off as a fully realized late teen through these events and scenes of not having the best of terms, yet is able to overcome it with progression of the plot
I played again recently and missed a QTE I guess I always succeeded (as Mike chasing the flamethrower guy after Jess fell into the mines) and it unlocked a minor exploration area with a jumpscare I’d never seen. Was pleasantly surprised, and it also unlocked a flashback for Mike when flamethrower guy comes to the lodge and explains the wendigo to everyone. Honestly, astounded.
I loved your analysis of Emily! Gotta say my favorite moment from the whole game is the "understand the palm of my hand, bitch!"
She delivered that line so effectively my god😂
To a character who didn't even deserve it.
@@monsterhanna6691 o oh monsterhanna69 is mad
@@foggio3957 Ashley just pointed out the bite. Mike was the one who decided to pull the gun on her. So if someone else were to point it out Mike would have still aim the gun at Emily. So it is not completely her fault.
@@patrickmarquez8307eh that’s debatable. Ashley completely freaked out and basically wanted Mike to shoot Emily. But Ashley was traumatized and paranoid, so I can see why she reacted that way
the amount of love i have for this game is so unreal. also, the amount of time and effort you put into this absolutely amazing analysis is incredible!
You can find damaged power stripes and surge protectors in the area of the guest cabin. It’s possible that whatever Josh had planned failed because of power overload
Plus, you can find a pic of Hannah and the karma sutra. Something was planned
I love the Sam part. “Sure, she’s kind and smart and levelheaded and physically adept and beautiful and cool and funny and compassionate but I don’t know why people like her!” 😂
Seggs
“Like her the most” pretty cool of you to leave that context out. She’s a good person but not too interesting as a character
That's not what she meant at all.
You pretty much got her point right, Sam is literally written as a perfect girl, she a Mary Sue without any flaws and that makes her boring
@pepelarrza3877 I can see that but in a genre(slasher/thriller) where there's often too many characters with too many flaws to be likable and make too many dumb decisions so you don't feel bad about their death but look foward to it. sam is everyone's goat in a situation for survival becuase of her positive traits vsstly outweighing her negatives. I don't want the girl that cries and screams all the time in a horror situation or the annoying sound mouth who does nothing but complain. I want someone who can stand on business and help us survive.
Many users on the r/untildawn subreddit (myself included) firmly believe that Chris and Ashley were made to suffer more than the others so that they could finally confess their feelings to one another. This can especially be seen during the trap where Chris has to shoot himself or Ashley. As the blades are getting closer and closer, Ashley tells Chris that they were both stupid for never making a move on each other. Since both characters are placed in life or death situations (whether it be by the hands of the Wendigo or by one of Josh’s pranks) there is a sense of urgency to confess their feelings since they are unsure if they’ll be alive to let the other person know. I guess Josh wanted to trauma bond them and it ends up working depending on the players choices!
Josh literally mimics them confessing their love later when he snaps, so that makes a lot of sense
wasnt there a line before all the creepy stuff started when josh is teasing chris about his crush on ashley and says they need a traumatizing experience to romantically bond?
@@HoldMyCalls YES, there is!
He literally said that to Sam😭
I have literally never seen that "we're totally gonna make out" clip of Mike EVER that's hilarious
The way I see it, Josh was absolutely going to prank the whole friend group, he only started with Chris and Ashley because they were the closest targets, that's probably the reason he didn't immediately go for Mike and Jess first
In fact it's likely he'd go for them last, they're the most culpable for the prank, so he was going to save the best for last, in fact I believe that's also why he goes for Chris, Ashley and Sam first, Chris and Sam were the least culpable for the prank, and Ashley was just present for it, it would then be easy to assume that his next target was Sam, followed by Matt and Emily, and finally Mike and Jess, it's just that he didn't anticipate Mike and Jess were going to be attacked by Wendigos, he wasn't expecting Mike to show up when he revealed himself to Chris and Ashley, it's also possible he was going to ask them to help him to make the rest of the prank easier
There's one detail in the game that makes Josh an even more tragic character, if you read Josh's Medical Files it's shown that he's being prescribed Anti-Depressants, but by examining Josh's behavior through the whole game it's very clear he's showing symptoms of Schizophrenia, Anti-Depressants do nothing to relieve the symptoms of Schizophrenia, as such it's easy to see why he sets his plan into motion and why he has a full-blown Mental Breakdown at the very end
There is actually the (not confirmed) theory that Josh planned to tape Jess and Mike on film while they would have had sex at the little cabin. Clues might be the stuff Josh says to them (I've never played the game in English, so I am translating "back" inside my head, so I'm sorry if it's not word for word):
- "Have fun pornstars"
- "I'd watch it"
However, you're never able to prove it (eg by finding a hidden camera in the cabin as Mike), so the theory is that the idea was there, but later scrapped.
This would explain at all why Josh was okay with sending Jess and Mike away instead of including them in his prank like he did with Chirs, Ash and Sam, because his prank on them would have been their sex tape released on the internet.
I concur
I call bullshit that Ashley refused to open the door cuz she was on shock. In the scene, there is a flashback to when Chris pointed the gun at her, implying that choice is the reason she didn't open the door. Then I can't remember if it's one of my playthroughs or someone else's but if Ash doesn't open the door, I don't recall her ever acting remorseful for that decision. She has shown guilt or remorse for Hannah and Beth dying, but not Chris if she locks him out. If she was in shock, then she would at least show remorse after the fact. But she doesn't because she doesn't feel guilty. Maybe that developer wanted her to be in shock but whoever directing the acting and animation did not tell the actor and animators that Ash was supposed to be in shock.
If Ashley was in true shock, she wouldn't open the door regardless of the previous choices
If they wanted to show that Chris' heroism breaks her out of her shock, they'd show flashbacks of Chris _saving_ her before she opens the door, instead of showing Chris harming her before she lets him die
@@Marigold11037 So far there was a scene where Ashley did not want Chris to go outside due to the wendigo regardless if Chris choose to shoot her or not. Ashley may have still wanted Chris to be safe but Chris holding a gun reminded her of the trauma that Chris have showed onto her.
@patrickmarquez8307 or it's pretty much the example of devs being lazy. Even after Matt dies at the cliff, Emily still says his name, thinking that the weird noises in the mines could be Matt. Same with the interview. "Oh my god, he's dead, isn't he?". Uhh... yep, you pretty much told everyone "he's dead, he fell. He fell so far". "Fucker left me to die". Literally not what happened. Just like if you side with Jess as Matt in the begging, despite him abandoning Emily, she still gonna care for him, even when she called him "sack of shit" for that. And the other way around.
i vaguely remember Ashley wont open the door for Chris if he tried to shoot her at the 2nd trap, i always took it as a revenge for having "betrayed" her
This is probably the best Until Dawn video essay I've seen! Love this game as well as the others from supermassive and shocked you have less than a 100 subs still! Stoked to watch this channel grow and see the videos you release! +1 sub!
Thank you so much! I’m glad you liked the video💙
@@heyfuturesoul I watched all the rest of your dark pictures videos too. Great job! I can’t wait for you to tackle the quarry! I love it just as much as until dawn - maybe even more honestly.
One of the ways I interpreted as a reason behind Josh being so cruel to specifically Chris, as opposed to any of the others who were more involved in the prank, is because Chris is his best friend and someone he can project himself onto. So without having an outlet to release his anger and pain, he chose to torture the person closest to him in the group. Almost as a self-punishing thing. Chris was also drunk and passed out, like himself, and since he's trying to externally punish others for something he feels guilty for (not being awake to stop the prank or help) he's externally punishing the person most reflective of himself and the person he can project most onto.
I dunno if anyone else has discussed this point before, but I think it's an interesting take!
You should play The Quarry, if not already. It has similar important decisions, mystery, quick time events, and tension that Until Dawn has. The characters are great, likeable ones and not so likeable ones, with good dialog options. The Quarry's version of "don't move" are not as good as actually not moving, but is pretty close to the overall tension. The chase scenes are crazy and the lore is great. This version of totems is surprisingly stressful. Definitely play if you haven't. Great video btw :)
It’s by the same developer! So yeah it should be just as good haha
I'm gonna have to say I personally don't think it's that good.
Spoiler warning ⚠️
I think the game was rushed. Some of the animations are terrible, its way too dark during the majority of scenes, streaming mode doesn't even work to change out the copyrighted music. They rehash far too many twists from Until Dawn, like the misdirection of the Hackett Family even though we can figure out pretty early on that they're not a threat. I will admit their later betrayal is actually really good though. The "monster" is revealed too early and the design of the dogs/werewolves is pretty lackluster.
They don't make enough use of the mines/rum tunnels under the Hackett House. We also barely get to explore the Hackett House! The scene with Ryan, Laura and Chris when they find him chained in the attic should've 100% been in the final game.
Eliza and Silas are completely underutilized and I feel like the curse should've gone back WAY further than 6 years because otherwise the history of the Hackett's is rendered useless/unnecessary information. Give Eliza a more tangible tie to the Hackett's, make her Septimus' jilted lover or make it so that she used to run rum for the Hackett's during prohibition by selling it via her travelling sideshow. Like, any connection other than a random circus sideshow just happening to come to this tiny town. There should be a way to keep Kaylee alive because there's no reason why we can save Caleb but not Kaylee.
And I know the ending podcast is supposed to be "quirky" and "weird" but it was just obnoxious and I really wanted to see what the characters had to say after surviving the night. We can still have the choices of the Hackett's being charged or the teens being charged depending on how much evidence you collect. That was a great concept!
I just feel like there was so much missed potential with certain plot points snd character motivations.
@MissSimone02 The Quarry is definitely not as good as Until Dawn, but in my opinion, I really liked it. You do make some valid points, tho.
@@ayshaj1088 it's decent, there's just a lot of missed potential. I feel like Until Dawn has a very cohesive story from start to finish and it answers almost all of the questions the players wanted to know about.
Awesome video!
I'd like to touch on what you said about Sam. She is the golden girl who can do no wrong. Yes, because every single one of the characters in this game is a horror movie chiché and Sam is "the final girl". Explaining to whoever needs it, "The final girl" is a recurring trope in horror movies where, towards the end of the story, a female character emerges as the last survivor to confront and defeat the antagonist or threat. Typically, she's portrayed as resourceful, resilient, and often more virtuous than other characters, making her the symbolic embodiment of "good" triumphing over evil. Sam is the textbook example of the final girl, as such I find it completelly understandable that she doesn't see much development through the story, since she is the only trope who is supposed to be virtuous from the get-go.
By the way, I think this trope was geniously translated for the branching narrative format. Sam's very first death opportunity is waaaaay at the climax of the story, thus Sam is also THE character who is guaranteed to survive the longest. Her death also always results in Mike's death, stablishing her as the most vital piece in the chessboard.
Even if i don't like Ashley, i kind of respect how she's got her own reaction to the traumatizing night everyone is going through
But what i felt was a missed opportunity was that she turns hostile towards Chris if you choose to shoot her, regardless of whether you pointed the gun at yourself FIRST, then heard her plead to kill her instead. I felt like that would have been an impressive subversion, where firing at her only would've had that massive relationship drop if you either didn't hesitate to shoot her or didn't do something that made her say to kill her instead. Cause if she says that, then you fire at her, and she reacts like you're an awful person by basically getting you killed, it's more than a little jarring
i think that might be a hole from the devs tho, i dont feel they put much thought into ashley overall, what a lost
I feel like it should have been a thing since there are 2 opportunities to betray Ashley-
If you save her from the saw and don’t shoot her-her and Chris kiss
If you save her for one but not the other-she doesn’t leave Chris out in the cold but they also don’t smooch, she is bitter but not vindictive
If you betray her both times-she won’t open the door at all
Great video, but I feel like the biggest weakness of the game was left out and that being the lack of. Consequence in some sections- for example in chapter 9 when Mike goes back to the abandoned hospital- it is impossible for you to get him killed. There are free windigo every corner but he gets plot armor in this section even if you fail every single quick time event. This is the second to last chapter of the game and he is an important character to the last chapter but there should have been a way to continue the story with a way for him to die to make the stakes higher. Sam also has plot armor until the last chapter when Matt and Jess are side lined the last half of the game. I wish we could have seen more character interactions after what they’ve been through especially with Jess and matt and the other characters.
I also strongly believe there should have been a challenging but possible way to save josh too. It is seen that he is in a horrible mind set due to being treated for the wrong condition so him getting the worst ending especially after all the trauma he’s had seems backwards. He is in the wrong for all he has caused but him having the most gruesome death, and his BEST ending is him becoming a wendigo after his sisters both died and he has to deal with possible schizophrenia gives the wrong message about mental health.
Love Until dawn so much though and some of these changes would probably have made the development time much much longer so just personal issues I had
The actors who played Josh and Matt were born in 1981 and 1994 respectively. With most of the cast in the 1990 range, I think this age difference also contributes a lot to how they interact with each other and the way we see them. “Chris” is a decade older than “Matt.” It’s really interesting to me since I always saw Matt as being younger and now I know why
Oh my gosh, it feels great to hear someone else agree that Ashley is pretty shit. I remember the exact moment my dislike for Ashley solidified was when Chris asks her about her involvement in the prank that led to Hannah's disappearance and her response is "It takes two to tango." She is essentially shifting the blame off from herself onto Hannah. If you check her character traits after choosing that dialogue, HONEST goes up. This scene also made me respect Chris even more cause he doesn't let that response slide and is rather put off by Ashley's selfishness, despite his crush on her + Ashley's relationship status with Chris goes down. Ashley is truly somewhat of a wolf in sheep's clothing if you choose the more evil dialogue that makes her honesty go up, I feel that's something that a lot of players miss when playing Until Dawn for only a single time.
I mean when you think about it Hannah was trying to sleep with her friends boyfriend, the prank would of been avoided if the was a loyal friend
i mean hannah did try to sleep with her friends boyfriend, i took it as a hint to that. tho i do agree she can be distasteful, thats kind of what makes it interesting, the fact that none of the characters are without fault (except sam lol)
Wish we got more Jessica and Emily content together in the mines they could have owned up to their mistakes with one another or showed worry for both Matt and mike while trying to survive together I think they could have worked out their differences or Trauma bonded in some way because near the end of the game Jessica seems the most traumatized
i honestly never cared for chris but i for some reason have never thought about his personality shifting. i’ve never stopped to think about how he just becomes serious and apathetic, and i’ve also never seen anyone talk about it. i must say though i was a bit surprised you didn’t really comment about jess’s major character change as similarly to chris but worse, she shuts down and is completely traumatized and has a hard time responding. i really enjoyed this video!!
i also think this game does a really good job of making you chose NOT to do something! like mike and that creepy hand thing, or ashley following who she thinks is "jess", and even the whole don't move mechanic, it just adds so much to how you think about the game and the characters tbh! so often games encourage you to explore everything and leave no stone unturned, so to actively choose not to do things because that could lead to a character getting killed is just incredibly clever and i'm really glad they continued this to some extent in the dark pictures anthology as well as the quarry!!
anyway i totally love your analysis of these games!!!
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"UNDERSTAND THE PALM OF MY HAND BITCH!"
Still the best line of the game and Ashley absolutely had that shit coming especially because the Stranger had literally just told them that bites aren't infectious AND she had the book.
But I absolutely agree with Ashley being my least favorite character. She was absolutely cold blooded towards Chris in the ending where she kills him especially considering that she told him to let her sacrifice herself.
Emily is a queen! Jessica is also one of my favorites because I can absolutely sympathize with a girlie who overcompensates for her insecurities.
I was OBSESSED with this game years ago. I wrote a little game book for an art project. It was a game guide as to how to save each character and wrote where every clue is.
As someone who was obsessed with this game as well, I think you may enjoy Detroit Become Human, and The Quarry! Detroit Become Human definitely has the most pathways you can take of any game I've played. Its also the most beautiful game I've played (also starring Jesse Williams, if you've seen Greys Anatomy you'll recognize him). And The Quarry seems to an overall upgrade from Until Dawn, as a similar horror cliche game with lore behind it and more possible endings! But definitely a similar vibe, teens in the woods with a lodge, clues, relationships with each other, the supernatural, and a bigger picture.
I love seeing people love on this game the way i do! Great video!
I'm SO glad I'm not the only one that dislikes Ashley. I have disliked her for YEARS. You and other comments put it so well so I won't repeat, but she IS incredibly inconsiderate after the Wendigos are revealed!!
1st playthrough I managed to save everyone up until that very last choice and ended up burning them all alive lmao it killed me. They really punish you for trying to get away from any uncomfortable play. That "dont move" part is utterly terrifying and brilliant. They are releasing a new enhanced version for the ps5 and I will be getting it for sure.
I think that Chris using those phrases like “us” or “we” symbolizes his empathy he has towards the group. And him trying to help them not feel alone in a moment of complete remorse and guilt.
Plus Emily is the ONLY character that can't directly get another character killed
Jessica aswell if you don't count her falling in the mine with matt
@@kingshark9057she can kill a bird but its unintentional, they’re the most morally correct characters even tho they’re portrayed as the mean girls
EMILY FANS UNITE !!!
great video, i loved your takes on the characters and the amount of details you included :3 keep up the good work!!
finally another person likes emily!!!!!! i catch so much shit for loving her, but with how many times they tried to kill her - she became the most badass final girl
That opening was wonderfully edited. Bravo to whoever did that, be it you or an editor.
5:28 same! Winter has always had an interesting place in my heart, maybe because I live in a country where it's summer year round. It's also why I like the song Ditto so much
I loved Emily's escape the mines section. It was so scary and well done
45:15 i think josh had more planned during the night, and he separated everyone to be able to play out his prank's plot in controlled environments. jess and mike going to the cabin was planned- there were pop up scare pranks along the way, after all. maybe the end goal was to recreate the original prank (recording them unknowingly during an intimate moment), then scaring them outside, alone in the dark and cold... just like how his sisters felt a year ago. while chris/ashley and sam got the most attention and harrassment at the beginning of the night, they were actually the safest; they were in the house, being chased by a person who didn't actually intend to kill them. being out in the forest though... that's how people die.
it's backwards, and irrational, and still did them harm- but josh's prank had the two people he was closest to, and the two people least involved with the prank, chris and sam, inside, in the warm, coming out in the final prank video looking like a big hero who saves his crush and a kickass Final Girl... give or take a bit of mental trauma on the side.
(dont ask me anything about emily and matt please im begging you i dont k no w)
Matt and Em were definitely sent outside on purpose. My guess: Josh yanked Emily's bag on purpose and just hid it, and that caused the two to go look and find the pig on a stick, and go back into the lodge. I think the two were supposed to be separated from Chris and Ash, and have Emily get tortured similar to Ash since she was the most unapologetic about the prank besides Ashley.
Oh thank god. I hated Ashley. Emily owned what she was. Ashley is one of those back stabbing type people. Like someone who would lie to your face and not feel bad at all.
Amazing video btw!
The irony being Ashley's honesty bar decreases everytime she expresses concern for anyone or wants to help.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 omg really?? Like it’s been a long time since I played the game and I’m horrible at it but I intentionally got her killed off just because she was so awful.
Like it did not feel like she was in shock with the Chris situation. It felt very calculated, and she even shoot him a glare.
Like also the whole beginning of that game with that prank on Hannah was just gross but I mean I get that’s the point of the game but still I couldn’t imagine doing that to someone who’s my friend and he was nice enough to invite me to their super nice ass private mountain lodge.
@@crinklescat1871 There is a scene where Ashley wanted Chris to stay inside the cabin regardless if Chris shot her or not. Ashley may have done it out left Chris outside due to trauma as suggested by the achievements. So far Ashley's compassionate meter can still remains high even if honesty meter goes down. Not only that Ashley's compassion meter raises even if she is not honest suggesting she was trying to act considerate despite not being a reflection of her feelings. Ashley is not as terrible as she did terrible things out of trauma rather than being herself. There are people who are honest but are terrible because they want to be catered to and acted that way while being mentally sane. Ashley is more virtuous than them as she at least tries doing the right thing despite being scared and dishonest for example she was thinking Jessica needed help and goes after her despite it being the wendigo.
@@patrickmarquez8307 it’s kinda of cool that this game is so good we are all able to talk about how the characters literally change due to the amount of trauma they faced. Like in the quarry i didn’t feel this way. I only got invested in dylan and katlyn.
But regardless, I’m sorry I just hated Ashley. I have watched many endings and her interview if she lives after leaving Chris to die is hard. And she if does try to save Jessica she dies(that’s how I killed her off)
Good game and good comment section. I loved the game but by the ending I definitely had some deep thoughts watching those kids be interviewed. But even if everyone lives (except poor Josh , even as a wenidgo ) the ending still feels so damn bleak.
@@crinklescat1871 Until Dawn is good game, although I have to admit that the game is not perfect. This does not mean I hate it. So far I think Emily was the worst as she hope Matt dies and can lie to the police because Matt did not cater towards her feelings and she did it while not being mentally scarred. Emily just never cares for people she hates even though they tried to help her, she can just witness Matt trying to save her but she thinks it's fine to insult him and say to the police he left her to die even if he did not. There are fictional characters and real people who have done worse things than Emily but never excuse how she would have behaved because they learned from their mistakes. Ashley was problematic and not excusable but she can recover and change from it even though not everything can be reversed, she is just like Josh. One problem I have with Ashley's writing is that she can find clues that Josh is the killer in the gameplay, but Sam is always programmed to explain the clues related to Josh despite it only being Ashley and/or Chris finding the clues which makes finding clues as them pointless. Anyways when it comes to Emily she continues to act bad because her feelings never catered and her behaviour is equivalent to an narcissist. When it comes to narcissist just because they actually feel bad does not mean they changed even if they did helpful stuff. I like how smart she is but the way she treated Matt and act angry all the time things don't go her way before things gotten bad is a huge red flag. I like flawed characters but I think Emily is kind of a bad example of how to write a flawed character with feelings. She is entertaining but from a story standpoint making a smart character being less sympathetic for the majority of the game makes her less redeemable. I have seen smart characters who are flawed but them acting sympathetic makes you appreciate them more besides their intelligence, which gives them more depth and less predictability then a smart person who just wants their feelings to be catered. Sorry for the long comment, you are free to disagree. I just want to express myself.
Thing with Sam, is that you do need to have a character like her in the story to keep things balanced and levelled. The other characters all have very strong personalities, you need someone who is more quietly competent to help the others make it out alive.
i don't LIKE ashley, but i like that she exists in the game as someone to dislike. she makes you raise your eyebrows, like. girl. there's something going on in you that wouldn't really come out if not for the fact that you're in this situation.
That jumpscare at 48:22 was absolutely feral! I still vividly remember my first playthrough of this exact moment. Had both my housemates with me watching along and suggesting what choices we made and played it in the pitch black. Came to that crossroad and was like "Which way? Which way?!" and they were just like choose one, I just default went right and when it jumped right out at the screen at us blasting its screech through the surround sound we all simultaneously screamed so loud 😂 Felt like I almost had a heart attack and my hands would not stop shaking so I was glad they gave us a moment before doing the next keep still section. But as you said, this game was truly special and was a lot of fun looking up all the different outcomes that could happen instead online after playing.
I think Sam is the favorite because she gives stereotypical "final girl" horror movie energy.
I'll argue that the greatest characters are those that you cannot fully love or hate because of their complexity.
If emily’s perception of matt is high enough, matt can choose to jump to safety straight away instead of choosing to save emily at the firetower and by the end of the game emily will still be fond of matt and ask if he’s okay no matter what.
This way you can keep emily from being bitten (because she has the flare gun if you choose to give it to her), Matt is safe until the final chapter and both seemingly still maintain their relationship after the events of the mountain have taken place and of course if they both survive Until Dawn. (Would be quite awkward though😅)
Well done video. Good commentary. You have some spots where it seems like you misspoke, but that actually makes it feel more personal so not a problem. I hope you make more videos soon.
Thank you I’m so happy you liked it! I’m glad my mistakes aren’t too bad for you. I never realized how often I trip over my words until I started making videos😅 I try my best to post a new video once a week on either Friday or Saturday with a video game discussion being once a month:) thanks again for the support!
@@heyfuturesoul I really just meant it as a like "something to look out for in scripting," and hopefully it didn't make you feel self conscious. Like both wendigo and deer are pluralized as wendigo and deer. You have a nice voice to passively listen to, and considering how new your channel is, you did a really amazing job.
Thank you for the feedback:) I really appreciate it because your guys second set of eyes help point me in the right direction to improve and better the content. I am so happy that you liked the video
I've been looking for a good Until Dawn video essay to slap on while I'm working, and the intro to this already has me hooked! Can't wait to watch your other Dark Pictures videos! :D
Imagine Emily could‘ve found jess in the mines😭
Honestly i was hoping for this scenario. It could be a awesome redemption arc between them.
it is always so cool to me that the stranger is an actual person related to the history of wendigos
Omg i was already excited to see this video so many years after it came out. I was enthralled when it released!
Emily's definately my favourite character. Bitchy and a Badass?! Regina George would be impressed.
The real villain of Until Dawn isn’t Josh or the Wendigos, it’s Ashley lol.
I went from an emily hater to a emily stan. This video also changed my mind about Ashley now that im realizing how bad she truely was
youtube has been recommending me smaller channels lately and it’s awesome.
I think Matt's death when you don't give him the flare gun and try to save Emily is the most random and unfair death of the game.
Fun fact, every tester failed to save Matt. Because he has the most bs death in the whole game. "Oh you tried to save Emily? DEATH"
Don't move feature is great - when you play a lot of games, quick time events become kinda trivial, even in stressful situations. But that don't move moments - I've never seen that before and legit panicked the first time) very immersive
Sucks that you saw playthrough before playing. I guess I got lucky - didn't know anything about the game and played with group of friends in the middle of the night, first playthrough for everybody, we just had nothing to do and stumbled upon it in ps store. WTF moments, crazy twists, everybody screaming what to do and passing controller after every chapter - that's definitely unique experience
How do you not have more subscribers??! This was a really well thought out video essay and I look forward to watching more in the future
Great video! I 100% agree that this game is phenomenal and it’s story and experience is why. A few things
-Jess can show remorse for the prank if you find the yellow tape and Mike asks what she remembers?
-Ashley isn’t mean to Chris in the mines, if she asserts that he stays with them she’s doing it because she doesn’t want him to stay behind by himself.
This was really well done!! I really enjoyed your character analyses, makes me want to revisit the game :)
🐾 great video! This is probably one of my favorite horror games, happy I got to enjoy it when it came out spoiler free
I really love this game. It was my first Platinum trophy. I look forward to the Remastered version!
I think the reason Chris said We as not to be accusatory towards Ashley making her feel like an outcast
50:31 UNDERSTAND THE PALM OF MY HAND BITCH my iconic queen
🐾 Loved this video, I was always a huge fan of the game and watched as many playthroughs as I could. Loved the analysis of the game and characters, can't wait to see more from you :)
I just found this and I love it, many good points I never thought about! I watched play throughs in 2014 and just now got to play for myself recently and I have to say Ashley got on my nerves playing for myself rather than watching others playing her. I wish Matt and Jess had more time on screen
I did not have a PS4 or a PS5 so I only watched TH-camrs playing the game. Because of its in-depth immersive feelings, that don't move feature latched onto me too. My heartbeat was pounding like crazy while waiting for the don't move feature to fade again. The climax of the story, where they have to escape the cabin was the most nerve-wracking for me.
huh ive played this game so many times and I'm just learning that matt can survive the wendigo after trying to save emily twice, wow this game continues to teach me new things
When I first watched/played Until Dawn myself, I absolutely loved Ashley and really hated Emily. Now several years later, I can appreciate that most of these characters are more complex than they first let on. I don't hate any of them. Ashley is still my favorite, but now rather than just saying "no she's a sweetheart!" when people don't like her because of the locking Chris out thing, I can say "yeah, she's the character where fear and a need to survive bring out the worst in her." Morally, not great at all, but from a writing/character analysis standpoint, really interesting.
I will never forget the first time I watched an until dawn play through. It was so amazing. Seriously one of the best games of all time
Loved the video the audio is a little bit silent though compared to other youtube videos. I can turn up the volume no issue I just wanted to mention it since I noticed it ^^
I agree, as someone who suffers from hand tremors…..the don’t move sections are nearly impossible BUT this game is still amazing
Thanks for this video, it really brought me back to when me and my friends all sat around the TV, playing the game, and watched the game like it was a movie.
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I agree so much with pretty much all your takes. This was a pleasure to watch. Also, as a fellow Emily stan and Ashley hater I completely agree that the best moment is that slap scene hahahah.
Just thought I’d mention that Matt doesn’t have to attempt saving Emily twice for her to still like him in the end credits. I had heard a rumor that was possible, so I tried since I wanted a «perfect» ending. Reading a guide showing every relationship-outcome from the decisions in the game I managed to do it hahah.
Considered that ending perfect cause if she keeps the gun she can avoid getting bit by the Wendigo, which means she won’t have friends point a gun at her and suggest shooting her or sending her out. More harmony in the group after this traumatic night
I'm not really a fan of these kind of multiple choice/branching narrative games because the sheer complexity of making them means that most of the time their characters or plot are really shallow and the characters aren't acting or talking like real people (like to save time/effort they just went with stereotypes or character tropes rather than build a personality for each person). Until Dawn is honestly the only exception to this that I've found. The quality of its character building is honestly impressive, if a bit uneven as you pointed out. It was really interesting to hear your opinions and experiences as someone who clearly does connect with this style of game.
Also, I appreciate the Gab Smolders rep in this. She's such a good youtuber and is vastly underrated. I love that with each of these games she does 3 full playthroughs so we can see her blind reaction, all the bad endings, and all the good endings. ❤🐾
(it's a dang crime that more people haven't fully watched through the outro for this video. It's damn well done and there should be more pawprints supporting it in the comments!)
did you know Matt & Mike can fight instead of Jess & Emily?
I remember watching so many different youtubers play this game when it released and sometimes I even rewatch those playthroughs again.
But finally this year, I played the game myself for the first time (with a friend of course, I'm too scared to play alone).
And I actually managed to get some interactions and events to happen that I had never seen before! Also since I already knew the story it was a blast having my friend going back and forth on if Josh was still alive or not xD
I saw someone online theorize that the reason Josh targets Chris and Sam more than the others actually involved with the prank, is that he is intentionally pushing away the people who are closest to him, especially with chris testing to see if chris actually cares for him in this self destructive way. To be honest I don't necessarily believe this entirely, I think it more could be an oversight in the plot, but I do like the theory.
the thing with Ashely is that the hate was a slow build with the bite argument being the final push.
All throughout Ashley has just been constantly whiny character she doesn't really have a moment were she shuts up and does something like the other characters. her closest claim to fame is if you stab Josh with the scissors.
vs Mikes whole action hero through the asylum.
Emily escape in the caves
Sam had a slow start but she was a vital leader near the end with helping mike, and willingly being the last one out to flick the switch.
Chris attempt to save josh despite everything and his shoot off with the wendigos.
And Matt and Jessica while not as big had the quiet escape in the mines.
And I'm not denying her response wasn't reasonable as I'm sure half the people who hate her if they were in the same situation would be acting the same if not worse.
but were not her and were not in her situation were outside observers playing an character. Who you like on screen and who you like in person are two separate categories. Its annoying when the character you have to play is doing nothing but whinging every moment on screen, it doesn't endure you to them.
Also people tend to dislike false characters over rude ones. Emily and Jessica are rude upfront so you know what you getting and you find secret sweetness (jessica) or badass competence (Emily.) Were as Ashely has a much more sweet and timid nature at the beginning that combined with everything above and how she goes straight to "Shooot heeerrr!" on Emily (despite the fact that Emily was legit holding a book on wendigo facts) it makes her seem fake which can leave a sour taste in the players mouth.
and this is if you choose all her nice options in game. Choosing her bad options are a whole other story.
Includding
-refusing respnsibiliti and blaming the twins for thier death
-getting chris killed
-getting emily killed
-getting herself killed via wendigo mimic (were she had to leave the group, and despite her jus reading about wendigo mimicry and mike saying that Jessica was dead. Yes it was in large part due to player choice, but when most other deaths are due to failed quick time/don't move events and hers was a simple don't go down the corridor with the suspicious voice, your just left asking why. second stupidest death is Matt attacking the herd)
So far, the regarding the twins Hannah should have known that going outside without proper clothes on would have gotten her injured or sick. Even a caring person can admit that Hannah was clearly not using her head, when she ran outside. While it is sad she disappeared it does not mean what she did was smart. Hannah atleast needed some criticism on what she chooses to do when she is upset. Not only that Ashley was a bystander so the prank would have still happened if Ashley choose to not get involved, Jessica and Emily are most responsible since the prank happened because of them. So far Chris promised Ashley he won't kill her, which means he broken his promise. So Ashley here is not the one to be fully blamed here. Not only that Chris can try to kill Ashley twice despite Josh giving him the illusion that he can kill Ashley. So Chris is really did not have the right intentions for Ashley. Ashley is a flawed character but there is so many misconceptions about the character due to the overwhelming amount of people hating on her. Until Dawn is a very flawed video game on how it portrays victims to the point that people would try to justify terrible traits of character the moment they have done cool stuff.
@@patrickmarquez8307 i have no problem with Hannah running outside without a jacket.
Her and her family visited the cabin frequently so she most likely knew the immediate area well.
And she stayed on the well-defined path meaning she wont get lost easily. And i highly doubt she was planing to stay outside for the entire night. She just needed to get away for a moment.
And she would have been fine if not for the supernatural creature chasing them, bad luck that would have happened regardless of jacket or no jacket.
Ashley may not have been the ring leader of the prank but she was still an active participant, not some innocent bystander. She was laughing with the rest of them.
Chris and Ashleys ‘cause of another characters death’ scenes were two different circumstances. Chris was essentially the trolly problem, someone was going to die regardless, he just had a choice on who.
For the first choice between josh and Ashley the machine was already moving, either josh his best friend from grade school dies, or Ashley his high school crush. Even if he didn’t do anything someone would have wound up dead. He couldn't stop the machine, just change its course.
As for the gun, table, chainsaw looming down on them. It was once again a someone’s going* to die regardless, either kill Himself, kill Ashley. Or do nothing and risk the saws above the head killing them both.
Ashley on the other hand chooses not to open the door for Chris despite there being plenty of time. And shes the one to immediately call for Emily's head when the bite is noticed despite the fact that there was a book on facts right in Emily's hands.
And they had no reason to believe a bite changes.
The main dilemma with these choice driven games when it comes to characters is that a persons choice defines who they are. And when you have choices that bounce between saving someone or letting them die it greatly affects the character your playing as, even the Dialouge options.
For Ashley when she watch the film of the prank with Chris and he comments how he forgot how involved she was your giving two dialouge options for ashley.
1. Were she takes the blame and admitted what they did was awfull.
2. Were she puts the blame back on Hannah, saying ‘it was just a prank’
Naturally one would endure you to her character more than the other. And depending on player choice, can make the player more naturally acclined to like and forgive Ashley when out-of-player-hands actions are taking or more likely to blame her.
I have no problem with Ashley as a person per se but as a character you have to play, shes not fun. And in my original comment i just listed why the player would slowly grow to dislike Ashley despite the fact she usually has an initial positive reception.
@@HelloJellojrl While she did not know any better. Going outside at a snowy night without a jacket is just you asking to get potentially harmed more when something else besides a supernatural creature ends up hurting you. Her knowing the path won't really mean she would be okay. Even Beth finds that Hannah running away in the snow at night is problematic. Knowing the path way does not guarentee she would be fine. Not only that there were other things that would have hurt Hannah despite her family knowing the whole area. Ashley being a bystander does not really affect how you were treated by the prank that was caused by the ringleader. Nothing would be fixed if you just blamed the bystanders as majority of the time, you would have done the same when someone else is targeted. As it makes no difference if they are present or not as the problem would still have occured. But the only difference is that you may not have done what the ring leader caused. Not only that you can't blame a bystander or the ringleader when you decided that the ringleader should deal with you making a mistake (Hannah deciding to have sex and try to have an intimate relationship with Mike who is already in a relationship.) While it is wrong for the prank to happen, you still deserve blame for you choosing to try to have a relationship with someone already who has a partner. Hannah is not that innocent on this either. Dying does not change how you acted when you are alive, even when you don't deserve it. Chris and Ashley shotgun scene is not really a trolley problem as one person dies in each decision where there are no benefits to either decision. That also includes the saw scene between Ashley and Josh, which is basically who do you like more or who would you benefit from more. Also Chris choosing between him or Ashley is choosing between being selfish or be selfless. This makes it a decision on whether you really are a good person or not. If you choose to shoot Ashley, Chris is basically a dirty coward who is willing to choose himself over doing the right thing that he himself acknowledging by promising he won't shoot Ashley. A trolley problem is basically choosing one person to stay alive vs multiple people staying alive. It's not choosing between one person or another person that makes it a trolley problem, it's whether you are willing to save multiple people over one person that makes it a trolley problem. Ashley never advocated for Emily to die as she just wanted her to be kicked out. Mike was the one who wanted Emily to die, Ashley never mentioned anything about killing Emily. Its a huge misconception that Ashley wants Emily to be shot.
i’m loving this video!! this is also my favorite game and seeing this analysis in 2023 makes my heart warm ❤️ also its very well done!! got a subscriber from me!
The best video I've seen about this game!
Really excited to hear your thoughts on the Quarry! Your analysis and criticisms were really enjoyable, and you clearly know when to include scenes and audio to support your points
Just a note - quarry is pronounced kind of like a mix between "story" and "sorry", not like "wary"! But again, I'm excited to see your review, especially after working through your dark pictures videos 🐾
As someone who likes these SM games a lot and especially Until Dawn, I'm glad I stumbled upon this video. I can't get enough content about this game especially. Hopefully the Lord will bless us with another UD contender.
45:05 wait you're right. Never thought or realized this before. Why DID josh send them away to the cabin, away from the prank 🤔
This video is so well made. I’m so happy to see someone else have the same takes on Emily as me and put words to my feelings towards Ashley. 🐾
i love this, i would like to hear you talk about more video games!
Ok, two things for me first, about the doll house it means that Josh, or at least his dad, had cameras around the house because there isn't any other way for Josh to know everybody's places in the room during the prank and two, personally It seemed that no one regretted what happened because of the joke that went so wrong even though the dialogues try to make it appear that way and the ending, at least for me, is the one where no one survives.
50:16 THE QUARRY WAS SOOOO GOOD TOO. 5 of my friends and I played it together in one living room so we wouldn't feel scared. And dam, I loved the characters just as much. And i fucked up a few gun shots 😭 it was HARD to keep them alive
How does this channel have less than 1 thousand subs??? Your vids are incredible!🐾🐾