I live in Florida close to the beach and you always will see women in bikinis. The logic behind it is beyond me no woman would walk down the street in her underwear but will wear a swimsuit that reveals even more on the beach.
@@ScrunchyTacos Im not here to argue, just wanted to point out that actually a lot of people do swim in clothes for various reasons, that may have nothing to do with religious views. Most folks who go swimming rarely look like Victoria secret models. Folks just want to cool off and grab some Vitamin D.
@@ScrunchyTacos I would think if a woman wanted to go swimming, it would be reasonable for her to wear a 1 piece bathing suit. Although I suppose even that would have been scandalous during previous times.
@@One-z6y my wife wears clothing and she's beautiful, her purpose is modesty, even on the beach. Women nowadays wear straight up thongs on the beach, it's gotten worse and worse as time passes...it won't be long before they're topless and the beach becomes a place that a Christian man is going to end up having to avoid. Feminism knows no boundaries and they're the same ones who will end up topless who will say "don't sexualize me"...make it make sense
Yes! Protecting both our brothers AND sisters. I also agree we women don’t have to look frumpy in order to dress modesty. We can definitely look put together.
One of my favorite discussions yet. Tears in my eyes when Pastor Joel talked about imperishable beauty. May the Lord cultivate that in me and my fellow sisters to His glory
Great show. Thank you! It is loving to teach these things to women. Thankfully, I was grounded in the doctrine of female modesty as a young Christian. I was fortunate. Most Christian women are basically left to the dictates of culture on dress and behavior. We need more brave Shepherds who will address these issues!
Another great discussion here. "Men have a greater temptation to lust, women have a greater temptation to dress in such a way that brings that temptation." People dress intentionally. We are called by God to dress appropriately so as to not invite temptation.
I agree with you. But we need to remember that there aren't any women around to bring on temptation when the man, Christian or otherwise, clicks on the porn sites. It is most usually done in secret.
@@Denise-k3f sort of. There are women in porn and they are undressing in a way to inspire lust and getting paid with the expectation that it'll be push ed out to others. Lets not pretend that the actors and actresses and producers and distributors in porn are innocent and only the user is in the wrong.
Great discussion, I am so happy to hear anyone, especially men - who are given spiritual authority, talk on Modesty. I have been considering it.... and I think the lust is a consequence that comes from being immodest, but is not why we are told to dress modestly. We cannot base what we do or wear or say on others, but instead on the Word of God. We dress modestly because HE says it is a shame to do otherwise. I dont personally struggle with lust, but i absolutely do not want to see naked or partially naked people!
Very encouraging gentlemen! Love the way you work through the leading of the Holy Spirit. It like watching God's church mature before our eyes! Thank you. Keep up the GOoD work.
I head cover in public...debate it, no I don't. For me I display it as my display to others I humbly submit to my husband's authority and I show to my husband I respect his leading. For me it's a humble reminder not to run my mouth. It helps me remember when I am in the world I evangelize in words but also in conduct. Just as sourdough has taught me some discipline and has even helped me understand a closer connection to what I am called as a homemaker,the sourdough that is. The physical teaches the spiritual for sure with these two examples. Am I a perfect submitted wife in all areas? Of course not but it's taught me a wonderful discipline. In the end to wear a covering outside of service on Sunday is my blessing and Christian liberty.
So help me out with this: If I wear a headcovering in church, I am the only woman doing it and rather than submission, it gives a vibe of showing off/standing out. Exactly what we are told to avoid. Thoughts?
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev i think you know if that's your heart posture plus I definitely know people will know you and know your desire as they personally get to know you if showing off is your intention
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev Most congregations I personally have been in or visited that practice head coverings the women clearly enjoy head coverings more than the reason they say they practice it.
My wife and I go to a reformed church that I love and with imperfect people who strive to love the Lord. We have great pastors and elders, however, our biggest shortcoming is the dress code. My wife and I have been absolutely applaud by what we have seen some of the elders wives wearing. One elders wife in particular has worn booty shorts in the mid-summer months. I’ve struggled to say anything to our pastors because it does involve an elder whom I love. It’s been a difficult challenge for me to overcome to simply say something. I’m not sure how to approach it.
Here is the thing. Tell these 'elders' who obviously lack discretion and understanding, ONE time your thoughts with Scripture. If they do not except it, you have two choices: stay and tolerate this lack of maturity, or leave. The church is severely muddied: cherry picking left and right. Each person is their own entity and will answer to GOD. You do what you need to do in the LORD. We cannot control people or even cause their heart to change.
Appreciate you gents bringing up Partridge's view on headcoverings (I agree with him & Dr. McFall). Would be good to have a debate on that specific topic. In church vs anywhere. God bless you both.
I’m praying for a quiet and gentle spirit but struggle with this so much! I get on my knees and beg The Lord to change me because I had to take care of myself and be strong at age 6 and I believe that decades of abuse in all forms made me rough around the edges. I love the Lord and am so grateful he saved me going on 20yrs now but I have no guidance and I do pray for it, I have for years. I’m Thankful for channels like this one because it helps so much, Thank you 🙏🏽
Or maybe your abuse, that the LORD allowed, has made you a stronger person. All HIS children are different. Just BE HIS child. Not being yourself, is self sabotage.
Hate to tell you this but outspoken strength is not a sin. To many women will not speak out when they see something wrong. If it was not for women speaking out against religious men and women raping kids we would not be able to hold leadership accountable. Our environment shapes us.
Older woman here. When I was younger, I had a really hard time figuring out the *logistics* of modesty. Women's fashion is insanely complicated. Depending upon your build, it can be very difficult to find clothes that fit you, and are modest, and are beautiful not frumpy. When you do find them, they are likely to cost a chunk of change, which conflicts with the high value many Christian families put upon frugality. Add to this that, strange as it may sound, many young women actually do not know what they look like (except possibly they know that they hate it). This must be why Paul tells older women to mentor the younger ones. Just being told "be modest" by a father or pastor is not helpful when you don't know exactly what that means and you have no idea where to start. At the same time, you must get dressed every day, and there is currently no "standard" outfit for women as there is for men. As a young woman, you need an older woman who shares your interest in clothing to help you get your colors done, maybe get measured, locate companies that make modest clothes which flatter you, and ideally, to give you permission to spend money on all this without being accused of vanity or shallowness. I don't know whether this podcast is the venue for it, but I'd love it if some Christian podcast could have an older woman, ideally one with a hard-to-dress shape, address these issues practically.
I'm technically younger and this is how i feel too. As teenager i never knew how to make an "outfit" and thought that was "wordly" anyway (for those public schoolers, haha) so I never wanted to. As an adult the problem has continued because even though I no longer feel the need to only wear a simple jeans and t-shirt style, I can't afford any of the things required for putting together pretty, coordinated outfits. Not only that, but I have no idea what looks good on my body. My mom sometimes gives her thoughts on what things go together, but she has a different body type and basically everything fits her. Basically, my style is just poor and plain. I really want to be feminine, but the best I can do is a nice hairstyle paired with a hoodie and jeans. And that's assuming my hair is having a good day (it's wavy-curly and appears to hate me).
@@joys.6347 Hey! I have wavy/curly hair too! I've been thinking of starting a blog that fills this need, but realized that niche may already be filled. I've started researching Christian fashion and modest fashion blogs. They are certainly out there, but none so far fill the exact need I have in mind. They seem to assume the readers are stylish and have money already, and just want to be more modest. And so far, they tend to have affiliate links. Anyway, would that be something you're interested in?
@@joys.6347 I tried to reply to you, but it seems to have disappeared. I'm a curly girl too. The rules for curly hair are basically opposite to those for straight. Took me years to figure this out. I recommend the book Curly Girl. Would you find helpful a web site or blog that helps young Christian women think thru these issues? I've lightly researched Christian fashion web sites, and there are some good ones, but so far I haven't seen one that fills this exact niche.
Amen to this! I am 42 years old. It took me a lot of years to figure out what dressing modesty even is with my body shape. I am a curvy woman and have been since a teen when I went through puberty and developed. The attention from males of all ages began when I was young. I had adults tell me to dress modestly, but nobody helped me learn how to find clothing that was modest and looked good with my body shape. I spent my younger years covered from neck to toes thinking I was modest because I was covered, but my clothing hugged my curves and showed off my body shape. When I hit mid 30s was when I felt conviction to start wearing dresses, but my first attempts at finding dresses were pathetic; those first dresses hugged my curves like my tight clothing. My own mother laughed at me and told me if I thought dresses were more modest, I hadn’t seen myself from behind in those dresses because “there is no hiding that booty.” So I started to pay more attention to how Mennonite women dress and women in churches that emphasize modesty. I slowly found dresses that look good, but do so without drawing attention to my curves. I actually have had a few dresses custom made to fit using my measurements, which is a GAME CHANGER!
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev It's a joke. They were laughing because that line of reasoning would reveal a problem with THEIR HEART, not a problem with the standard. It's not really our job to make people WANT to be more modest... We simply explain what God requires and then each person can choose either to move toward glorifying Him...or glorify their own flesh. The folks who choose their flesh will simply sound as laughable as the one who says "I get more modest the uglier I get!" 😂 Sin is foolishness -- but there's nothing I can do to "motivate" a fool, if that's what he/she has chosen to be.
@@amandamckinney928 I was thinking in terms of parenting. I think many parents unintentionally shame their daughters over their appearance in an attempt to make them modest. Parenting is one case where you are building values and attitudes. Not motivating in the sense of mercenary motivation, but explaining the reasons we do what we do, setting norms, and giving an emotional tone to the household. If daughters grow up associating modesty standards with rebuke or with shame over the way they look, they are likely to become immodest later. Either they lose weight and think, "I'm attractive enough to dress this way now," or they remain "ugly" but reason that it doesn't matter if no one is looking ("modesty is just for attractive people who might tempt others to lust"), or, if they are confident but have been given the impression that having an attractive woman's body is sinful because their parents first got ashamed of them when they went through puberty, they might become immodest as a rebellious gesture against being shamed over things that are not behavior and that they can't help. tldr; I realize it was a joke, but it reflects a very real attitude that is out there and that we want to avoid communicating to our children.
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev The men in this video offered very simple and helpful advice to parents. It's obvious from their conversation that they understand what's happening in the culture right now, and I am thankful for their advice. 😊
@@amandamckinney928 I agree. I came to it a bit wary, and left feeling reassured. Although they don't understand all the complexities of getting dressed as a woman, they at least take a reasonable, grace-filled approach.
I cannot believe how women and girls dress these days and yoga pants are just the beginning of it! Sometimes their mothers are right there with them so it is not as if they are sneaking away from home to do it. This is quite bizarre to me and makes me wonder if the mothers get second-hand satisfaction out of seeing their daughters like that. I don't often see fathers accompanying daughters dressed like (what Santa says 😂) The amount of teaching and parenting that must precede this stance on modesty is significant (unless your wife or daughter is completely insulated from all the fashionable immodesty on TV, movies, magazines, online, billboards, mannequins, at school, etc). Simply saying "I forbid you to dress like that" after all that worldly input is not going to cut it. I also would not go to the beach without a shirt in company of sisters in Christ but I would with a bunch of brothers. Similarly, seeing a sister prance around with next to nothing on at the beach would present quite the conundrum- especially if I am used to seeing her dressed modestly on Sunday. Plus when you are wet things tend show through your clothing so that wouldn't be sanctifying. Having said that, a modestly dressed believing woman is a beautiful thing 🤩
I witness every week at the grocery store senior (grandmothers) wearing leggings as pants. And no. They are not wearing a long tunic top or shorter dress with their leggings either.
@@BelindaTN Boys at the elementary school level are now wearing leggings (tights? Compression leggings?) to school. At least they are wearing athletic shorts/basketball shorts over them.
@@solideomusical I am betting that teenage boys and young men don’t believe modestly dressed women are beautiful. At least they never act like they do. Lol Seriously though. It is such a struggle to try and live in society without being swallowed up by it.
Why is it ok to take off your shirt at the beach? Even if you are there with other men. There will be women at the beach too, some of whom might be believers. You might cause one of them to have impure thoughts
I’m no expert on fashions but I do take into consideration seasons and environments. I’ve lived in the tropics, for example, so wearing less was sensible. The idea of people covering up and fainting made zero sense.
@ShopRat-cf9trbraiding the hair with gold and silver threads as the ancients were doing to ostentatiously display their wealth-that is the comparison being made, as they did in the video.
For whatever it's worth, LV bags are well over $40,000s. I dont know much, but I doubt quality is a factor for the price. It's probably just conspicous signaling of status. I dont know that the price of gold is as high; but I suppose the time it takes to braid it in is just as unreasonable as wearing handbags that cost as much as a car or a tiny home on wheels. I think that ostentatious braids with interwoven gold signals that one has the leisure of time to be able to flaunt ones possesions in such a fashion. 🤷🏾♀️
Just finished listening to this on spotify, I think the conversation of music would make a fantastic topic for a video, I sat there listening to this, with a heavy metal band shirt on just thinking to myself "I'm gonna have to get rid of my entire wardrobe" I have been a huge fan of heavy metal my entire life but it tends to be a vulgar genre, But some bands are explicitly Christian (i.e impending doom) Your point with hip hop is more an issue with lyrics then the actual genre correct me if I am wrong. what kind of music is acceptable for a christian to listen to?
Great question. I’m the guy on the left in the video and I’ve enjoyed metal for most of my life as well. Unlike most rap, however, metal typically adheres to classic music frameworks such as melody, bridge, timing, etc. The lyrics, as you mentioned, are often more serious too than the trivial content of rap music. This isn’t to say that just like Impending Doom there couldn’t possibly be rap that is well composed and God glorifying: it is just that most of it is raucous noise.
@@Wesley_Todd You might wanna check out Shai Linne! I was raised listening to his music. His style might not be to your preference-it’s not entirely to mine-but he is a fantastic rapper and his songs are ENTIRELY Biblical. (Except that he’s Amill but at least he ain’t a Dispy lol.) He’s a pastor as a matter of fact, and does a lot of lyrical theology that truly does explain theological concepts very well. I’d also recommend JStu if you want some fun songs, especially stuff kids might enjoy as well as adults, and Isaac Quazzo if you want some deeper stuff (though they each have both). While I may not always agree with everything they say (I can’t think of anything at the moment), I agree with most of it and they’re definitely worth supporting.
I believe hip hop is not a genre of music. It is a verbal performance art form. If the subject matter were godly, or merely clever or funny, it could be highly entertaining and also impressive as extempore rhyming poetry. I have heard similar genres overseas.
@@lepp6598 I think that's where we don't agree In my experience, there are unmet expectations on one side or another in that situation Either the man wants to get with one of the women and represses it, or the woman keeps the man around for attention What have you seen?
My only problem with this is that it ignores the fact that modesty is relative to culture and the Bible doesn't actually say "never wear xyz". In the middle east, it's immodest to show your hair in public. Thus Christian women shouldn't. In traditional Amazon tribal cultures, no one blinks at topless women. (Granted exposure to nakedness at a young age desensitizes everyone) I'm not arguing that western Christian women should go about topless, but we need a realistic and reasonable assessment of what is actually modest in America before we start rattling off rules.
When I was a teen, I was genuinely perplexed by the passage about braided hair. It's not always being cute. It was helpful to hear the explanation that upper -class women would literally sprinkle gold dust into their hair.
Great discussion, thank you so much. I really want to add to the part about women dressing more feminine. I think when we talk about women and dress the conversation is always dominated by modesty, and understandably. But I think there are some other aspects that get lost. One of the issues is, how does a woman dress in a way that is both modest and feminine? Our culture has become adrogynous in fashion, and the church has lost a lot of ground in this too. Men and women basically dress the same. A T-Shirt, Pants, and sneakers. Compare that to our culture 200 years ago, you could see a man and a woman's profile from a far off distance, and from the shape of their clothes alone: a bonnette and a dress for a woman and a hat and a suite for a man; you could tell who the man was and who the woman was. I think a return to women wearing dresses and skirts and men wearing collared shirts and pants with boots or something like that is a good way to return to reclaiming clothing.
One of the strangest experiences of my life was briefly working near an orthodox Jewish community. Because I wasn't used to seeing traditional modestly garbed women. And I had the shocking realization that I hadn't seen women or girls wear an actual dress in ages! And it made me wonder why in Western culture we shun the every day wear of dresses for women.
If I knew of a church in my area where I could go to listen to sermons like this, I would go to church. As it is, I don't go to church, in part because I believe that churches which do not call out female sin are a danger to my marriage.
I completely agree with much of what was said, but I feel like the conclusion you gentlemen arrived at regarding bathing suits was a bit silly. Different clothing is appropriate in different contexts, and most bathing suits for both men and women are not designed to be provokative. Similarly, consider nude art- there is plenty of nude art which is not sexually provokative. People don't walk into the Sistine Chapel and get aroused by the many depictions of the unclothed human body. I'm not sure what the female perspective is, but I do recognize there are many bathing suits which are meant to be provokative, but ordinary people don't typically wear those. As stated previously, context is the big thing here. Just as you said you do not believe women need to wear á head covering every day, I do not think it is necessary for Christian fólk to abstain from swimming. And the thing about Christians needing to think twice before vacationing at one of God's marvelous oceans also seems pretty silly. Sure, we shouldn't go to a nude beach, and we should stay away from beaches that are know for being party locations, but it seems kind of crazy to avoid a normal family vacation spot. I know you gentlemen were proposing these ideas and almost instantly forming á reply, so perhaps you would reword some of these ideas, or reconsider them, but these are just my thoughts on what was said. God bless you, and may the Spirit be with you.
Is there a setting for closed captioning that needs to be selected on Joel's end? This is the only channel where Closed Captioning doesnt seem to automatically be added after a few hours after the live stream. Thanks in advance for assistance.
It's usually attributed to Luther but he didn't say it: 4:31 “If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.” -Fritz from The Chronicles of the Schoenberg Cotta Family (Thomas Nelson, 1864) by Elizabeth Rundle Charles
How about women spending so much money on hair care products, perms/coloring, salon visits, etc? Could that be a modern day equivalent of the jewels and gold braided into their hair?
Two things I've never understood: 1. Why women say they *have* to wear spandex to excerise because it's too hot otherwise. Men manage to do it in t-shirts and shorts so why can't you?? 2. Why men take off their shirt to swim. Women can manage just fine with a swim shirt or just a t-shirt over a bathing suit, so why can't men do it too?? And personally, I like it when men keep their shirts on. Whether a woman struggles with lust or not, going shirtless is still half-naked and it's a lot to show off. I'm not interested in seeing that much. I'm also a woman who is naturally always warm (yes, i break the "women are always cold" stereotype) and I have excercised just fine in regular clothes so I have a hard time believing it when others say they need their skin-tight althetic wear.
I would definitely agree with you. I'm more comfortable and sweat less in shorts and a tank top than in spandex leggings. That would make me warmer! There's no way people NEED to wear them for comfort. I actually can understand not liking to swim in a t-shirt, though (I don't like the added drag in water and the weight of it when wet outside the water). But my suggestion for men and women are swim shirts. They are made of a material that won't slow you down in water or hang heavily on you when out of the water! A "rash guard" is another term for them, and they can be very modest (t-shirt and even long-sleeved versions). My brothers and I grew up wearing them to the pool, and they have all the hydrodynamic positives of a swim suit, but the covering of clothing.
I think the quote at the start of the discussion is not Spurgeon. Although he may have said someting similer. "It is the truth which is assailed in any age which tests our fidelity. It is to confess we are called, not merely to profess. If I profess, with the loudest voice and the clearest exposition, every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christianity. Where the battle rages the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle-field besides is mere flight and disgrace to him if he flinches at that one point." Elizabeth Rundle Charles,
Luther had a quote with the same sentiment, but it referred specifically to the Lord's Supper. Makes sense, sine that was a big issue in his day. The E.R. Charles quote is from circa 1850, so she generalized the idea.
There was a time when men wore pants and women wore skirts, even during work. If a man's pants can be made feminine and acceptable for women to wear, I don't know what grounds one could forbid the making of skirts and dresses masculine and acceptable for men to wear.
Great episode Pastor Joel, but I do believe you made a category error in terms of not differentiating the sinful hip hop *culture* and hip hop/rap as an art itself. Yes, granted, the art itself, so far, has historically been used for subversive & revolutionary means, but there isn't anything inherently sinful about the art itself. To say otherwise would be unbiblical. Rap literally stands for "Rhythm And Poetry," it can be redeemed, it's not witchcraft or divination. A faithful Brother in The Lord & friend of mine came up with *rags* instead of rap, which stands for "Rhythm And Gospel-Scripture" & his work is a great testimony to how rap can be redeemed to the glory of Christ His artist name is "Brother Prays", his 1st album "Without Ceasing" is available on Spotify. And what would you say to Timothy Brindle, Wrath and Grace, Hazakim, Beautiful Eulogy faithful Christian artists of the world who use hip hop as the ART (not the sinful culture) to glorify God ? You may not like it because the devil has perverted it fof evil, but to condemn it altogether is merely a preference, and it can't be defended biblically. Thanks for your faithful work, Pastor, and may God continue to bless your ministry & reward your boldness ! 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
My wife and I had just gotten married and we were on our way to Church. I was waiting in the car for my new wife. She gets in the car and I start driving only to notice that she had on yoga pants. Needless to say we turned around and got some correct clothing on there...
There are reformed and even patriarchal women on Twitter, who believe, and I assume practice that they can win their husbands over without a word, yet they also believe and practice that they can win, pagan men outside of their household over with their words
Regarding women wearing pants, what about skinny jeans/pants? Do you approve of skinny jeans? Is there a difference between them and yoga pants? Most women wearing pants are wearing skinny jeans.
I think it depends on how tight they really are. When I was a kid I was so skinny that the super skinny jeans were loose on me lol. For some ladies, there may be a pair of skinny jeans that they can wear modestly, and another pair that they can’t. I wear leggings sometimes that are too tight to be modest, so I sometimes wear a short skirt over them or a long shirt or a jacket around my waist. I also wear ripped-repaired jeans; they’ve got big tears but with fabric sewn in underneath so as not the show any skin. I think it’d be fine if it were just the knees but big holes at the upper thigh are not okay and that’s how most ripped jeans that I’ve seen are. I actually wear denim shorts with rips in them but they don’t draw attention to my skin. This is my view as a Christian woman who often struggles to find modest outfits.
I was reading in 1st Peter this morning, chapter 3, this passage and related along with the Holy Spirit are the only resources Christian women need. That thumbnail...I guess it's called...is very offensive.
Concerning music, I found out recently that the phrase "rock n roll" (which is the root genre of rap/hip hop, country, pop, etc) is a euphemism for fornication.
So what kind of head covering are we talking about? A hat (specific hat), scarf on the head? Handkerchief on the head? Does all the hair have to be covered? Fashion kind of hat?
What type of head covering (other than something but the hair) is not defined in the bible. Women who follow this biblical ordinance have a wide variety of styles and types that they use. Hats, scarves, bandannas, tichels, snoods, wide headbands, etc. I know Pst Joel's wife wears one but don't know which type and I believe it's just for church. However, there are a wide variety of opinions on the subject. The Bible says for prayer and prophecy. Most would agree that is definitely for church but can extend to private bible study or other occasions. Covering all the hair is also up for discussion. From my observances, I'd say 1/2 do cover the hair, the other 1.2 don't. But, it may not necessarily be related to head covering per 1 Corinthians 11. Personally, I started covering as a most of the time deal and often the hair. Then it went to top of the head (or more) but hair is fine. Then I went to church and anytime in public but I covered my hair because of sin issues in my heart. Then went back to covering the head and sometimes hair just based on it I wanted my hair up or down. Now, after further study and due to personal conviction and talking to my husband; I cover almost all the time and, in public, I cover my hair. If you are interested in more discussion and information, I can point you to a facebook group that has a variety of views. You can also look at the headcovering movement (website by that name).
What I find interesting about this topic in my culture the way you guys are dressed would be considered for show and not particularly masculine. On any given day we'll have a truck with a horse trailer on it and a truck load of cowboys in service straight off the horse. Your dress in your service in my culture does not have a biblical look, you will be pegged as a Mormon! In bible college I had a dorm mate from south Africa, one day he broke down with struggling with lust, we were all blown away because all the girls on campus were very modest. He illustrated the issue by showing us a picture of him and his church, all the women were bare breasted BUT covered completely from the waste to the top of their feet. He struggled with seeing any part of a woman basically to the floor. Culturally our struggles were exact opposite. We got the girls to help us at times to make the mixed setting easier for him but we also worked with him to as it wasn't the girls issue it was his cultural issue that needed worked through or he needed to remove himself if he couldn't bring it under control.
Good question. I think Michaelango’s David is acceptable for example because it is truly artistic with no attempt to titillate. But the feminine form is almost impossible to present in nude form without having a sexual component. Good art would likely avoid nudity BUT it is also a far cry from pornography and cheap smut.
I found something I disagree on with Joel. I am shocked. Joel, brother, ill say it as plainly and straight faced as you said it and even look into the camera as I do. Hip Hop is for the Lord! Not the rap music that trash world produces, no but Hip Hop like Timothy Brindle and others like that. Most definitely brother. Done in a God glorifying way, Hip Hop absolutely is beautiful. Grace and peace.
This would be a great topic for discussion on their show at some point. Can hip hop/rap be redeemed for Christ? The one brother there alluded to jazz music. When jazz was birthed, it was a red light district music in the brothels and sleezy dives of New Orleans. It was considered a low-brow and vulgar music. However, over the decades, it became elevated and very high-brow, growing into an actual sophisticated art form. It has been disassociated from its past, in a way. SOME rock n roll falls into this same category. What started as youthful rebellion music of sexual license isn’t necessarily found in all present forms of music that use the same elements (amplified electric guitars, drum set, electric bass, falsetto in male vocals, backbeat, etc.).
I agree with Joel that hip-hop is revolting garbage that shouldn't be called 'music' at all. Are there people who have tried to buck this? Probably, but a salmon swimming upstream doesn't change the course of the river.
@@solideomusical If he was alive in the 50's, Joel would be saying that Little Richard and Chuck Berry were 'revolting garbage that shouldn't be called music'.
@@solideomusical It's not about taste, it's about the nature of Joel, who gives the game away in the first six minutes when he says "I'm not saying there isn't sinful racism ... but the headline of the story is that white people are not racist against minorities".
Question: if a dude shows up in your church, in a dress on the Lord's day, would someone automatically confront him? If so, would you also confront the woman who shows up in a suite and tie like what a man should wear? And how would you confront her? If not, why. I suppose it would be a case by case basis. Like, if the dude in a dress thought it was a trans affirming church by accident. Maybe you'd just preach repentance and faith to that person. What would that look like?
I agree - I think of tattoos as body graffiti that became popular first with the tramp stamp women would get on their lower back and had grown to be a national pandemic of obsurdity and ugliness. I think it became popular with porn was mainstreamed . And if the choices of clothing is a deliberate act, getting a tattoo surely is also. People make unwise choices and don’t even care whether they are permanent or not. And the tattoo is the ultimate virtue signal or non-virtue signal really. There are other theories that say it shows the instability of society’s bad the lack of both faith in a god or faith that there is anything stable in the world - hence a permanent tattoo that remains permanent. There is probably truth in those ideas as well and this would trace to the breakdown of the traditional biblical nuclear family. Somehow tattoos became a mainstream fashion statement.
Clothing, hairstyles, etc etc Traditions vary by country. Question your salavation. All people modesty and non- modest traditions. And work it out with fear and trembling of the LORD. Perfect Love cast out all fear so repent and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is perfect Love. Because Jesus Christ is perfect. The perfect unspotted lamb who died for the sins of the world, rose and sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven interceding for us in prayer. And provides salvation for all those who faithfully believe in His ransom. The Holy Spirit will work all things out of those who believe. Sanctifying them in this life.
There's always one of them in the comments section. Please forgive her. Her programming doesn't allow her another response. She only has 3 responses programmed into her... Race card, gender card, orange man bad.
Saying that men have a greater temptation to lust may be just an excuse for not putting enough internal work to fight the evil thoughts. I would answer with Jesus words from scripture Mk 7.15. I am not defending practice of walking around half naked by any men or women, I'm only saying don't blame beauty for men's mess within. Gentelmen shall know the difference between being exposed toward half of a chest to half of a leg or arm. Just don't see woman as temptation, get healed from your mentality hurt by sins, repent, live and let let us live not feeling guilty of your indomitable imagination. Period.
Regarding men restraining themselves in dress, remember the dandies of yesteryear? What about the peacocking of today? It might be worth looking into Pitti Ummo.
I disagree if I may. If you base modesty on a covering then we should be dressing like Muslims. You say covering prevents lust, yet my research showed an image of the highest rates of rape of the major religions and the Muslim religion had the most. So applying modesty as if it's a covering you end up with opinions of what's modest and not. Modesty is not a covering for the blood of Jesus covers us, but modesty is about relating to one another with humility. The Bible says modesty isn't with gold, pearls, and lavish, expensive clothing. It says to wear what's appropriate, normal, clothing. Jesus is our example. His clothes didn't isolate him from what the rest of his society wore. He actually showed skin in humility when he took off His garments and girded himself with a towel to wash their feet. God told Moses to dress Isreal men, women, boys and girls in Egyptian clothing which is quite revealing. They wore Egyptian clothing all the way into the promised land. Lust is not looking at a beautiful woman and admiring that. We admire beauty in every aspect of life. Lusting for a woman is different, it is the intention to have sex if possible. Any criminal can be guilty based on intention, but the victim isn't. Even if a store tempted me to buy something, it's not the stores fault I fell for an item. It's mine. Don't blame a temptation, but admire all that you like and be happy with what you have. And be happy for others sake for what God has given them. Wear bikinis with people that wear them. Be shirtless with those that are shirtless. Be welcoming with what you wear. Be the love of Jesus, a beautiful heart, a beautiful life to share with others. ❤
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
I live in Florida close to the beach and you always will see women in bikinis. The logic behind it is beyond me no woman would walk down the street in her underwear but will wear a swimsuit that reveals even more on the beach.
Maybe because they're on a beach with water, like where people go swimming. Last I checked people don't go swimming in clothes
And when I explained that to people on the Bible study the level of mental gymnatistics was insane
@@ScrunchyTacos Im not here to argue, just wanted to point out that actually a lot of people do swim in clothes for various reasons, that may have nothing to do with religious views. Most folks who go swimming rarely look like Victoria secret models. Folks just want to cool off and grab some Vitamin D.
@@ScrunchyTacos I would think if a woman wanted to go swimming, it would be reasonable for her to wear a 1 piece bathing suit. Although I suppose even that would have been scandalous during previous times.
@@One-z6y my wife wears clothing and she's beautiful, her purpose is modesty, even on the beach. Women nowadays wear straight up thongs on the beach, it's gotten worse and worse as time passes...it won't be long before they're topless and the beach becomes a place that a Christian man is going to end up having to avoid. Feminism knows no boundaries and they're the same ones who will end up topless who will say "don't sexualize me"...make it make sense
Yes! Protecting both our brothers AND sisters. I also agree we women don’t have to look frumpy in order to dress modesty. We can definitely look put together.
One of my favorite discussions yet. Tears in my eyes when Pastor Joel talked about imperishable beauty. May the Lord cultivate that in me and my fellow sisters to His glory
So refreshing to have God fearing men daring to broach this topic...thank you!
"I give the air-quotes for 'conservative women'." Love it.
Great show. Thank you! It is loving to teach these things to women. Thankfully, I was grounded in the doctrine of female modesty as a young Christian. I was fortunate. Most Christian women are basically left to the dictates of culture on dress and behavior. We need more brave Shepherds who will address these issues!
RESTORE THE DOCTRINE OF SEXUAL ONTOLOGY 💪
This is ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON! Thank you for being honest, truthful, firm men!!
Keep up the good work Pastor Joel, Wes, and based Ted Cruz
😂
Another great discussion here. "Men have a greater temptation to lust, women have a greater temptation to dress in such a way that brings that temptation." People dress intentionally. We are called by God to dress appropriately so as to not invite temptation.
I agree with you. But we need to remember that there aren't any women around to bring on temptation when the man, Christian or otherwise, clicks on the porn sites. It is most usually done in secret.
@@Denise-k3f sort of. There are women in porn and they are undressing in a way to inspire lust and getting paid with the expectation that it'll be push ed out to others. Lets not pretend that the actors and actresses and producers and distributors in porn are innocent and only the user is in the wrong.
@@Denise-k3f Right? Fix that first. Then lets talk.
Great discussion, I am so happy to hear anyone, especially men - who are given spiritual authority, talk on Modesty.
I have been considering it.... and I think the lust is a consequence that comes from being immodest, but is not why we are told to dress modestly. We cannot base what we do or wear or say on others, but instead on the Word of God. We dress modestly because HE says it is a shame to do otherwise.
I dont personally struggle with lust, but i absolutely do not want to see naked or partially naked people!
Very encouraging gentlemen! Love the way you work through the leading of the Holy Spirit. It like watching God's church mature before our eyes! Thank you. Keep up the GOoD work.
I head cover in public...debate it, no I don't. For me I display it as my display to others I humbly submit to my husband's authority and I show to my husband I respect his leading. For me it's a humble reminder not to run my mouth. It helps me remember when I am in the world I evangelize in words but also in conduct. Just as sourdough has taught me some discipline and has even helped me understand a closer connection to what I am called as a homemaker,the sourdough that is. The physical teaches the spiritual for sure with these two examples. Am I a perfect submitted wife in all areas? Of course not but it's taught me a wonderful discipline. In the end to wear a covering outside of service on Sunday is my blessing and Christian liberty.
So help me out with this: If I wear a headcovering in church, I am the only woman doing it and rather than submission, it gives a vibe of showing off/standing out. Exactly what we are told to avoid.
Thoughts?
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev i think you know if that's your heart posture plus I definitely know people will know you and know your desire as they personally get to know you if showing off is your intention
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev Most congregations I personally have been in or visited that practice head coverings the women clearly enjoy head coverings more than the reason they say they practice it.
My wife and I go to a reformed church that I love and with imperfect people who strive to love the Lord. We have great pastors and elders, however, our biggest shortcoming is the dress code. My wife and I have been absolutely applaud by what we have seen some of the elders wives wearing. One elders wife in particular has worn booty shorts in the mid-summer months. I’ve struggled to say anything to our pastors because it does involve an elder whom I love.
It’s been a difficult challenge for me to overcome to simply say something. I’m not sure how to approach it.
Here is the thing. Tell these 'elders' who obviously lack discretion and understanding, ONE time your thoughts with Scripture. If they do not except it, you have two choices: stay and tolerate this lack of maturity, or leave. The church is severely muddied: cherry picking left and right. Each person is their own entity and will answer to GOD. You do what you need to do in the LORD. We cannot control people or even cause their heart to change.
Appreciate you gents bringing up Partridge's view on headcoverings (I agree with him & Dr. McFall). Would be good to have a debate on that specific topic. In church vs anywhere. God bless you both.
And really you guys are dropping great content, keep it up brothers
I’m praying for a quiet and gentle spirit but struggle with this so much! I get on my knees and beg The Lord to change me because I had to take care of myself and be strong at age 6 and I believe that decades of abuse in all forms made me rough around the edges. I love the Lord and am so grateful he saved me going on 20yrs now but I have no guidance and I do pray for it, I have for years. I’m Thankful for channels like this one because it helps so much, Thank you 🙏🏽
Or maybe your abuse, that the LORD allowed, has made you a stronger person. All HIS children are different. Just BE HIS child. Not being yourself, is self sabotage.
Hate to tell you this but outspoken strength is not a sin. To many women will not speak out when they see something wrong. If it was not for women speaking out against religious men and women raping kids we would not be able to hold leadership accountable. Our environment shapes us.
Older woman here. When I was younger, I had a really hard time figuring out the *logistics* of modesty. Women's fashion is insanely complicated. Depending upon your build, it can be very difficult to find clothes that fit you, and are modest, and are beautiful not frumpy. When you do find them, they are likely to cost a chunk of change, which conflicts with the high value many Christian families put upon frugality. Add to this that, strange as it may sound, many young women actually do not know what they look like (except possibly they know that they hate it).
This must be why Paul tells older women to mentor the younger ones. Just being told "be modest" by a father or pastor is not helpful when you don't know exactly what that means and you have no idea where to start. At the same time, you must get dressed every day, and there is currently no "standard" outfit for women as there is for men.
As a young woman, you need an older woman who shares your interest in clothing to help you get your colors done, maybe get measured, locate companies that make modest clothes which flatter you, and ideally, to give you permission to spend money on all this without being accused of vanity or shallowness.
I don't know whether this podcast is the venue for it, but I'd love it if some Christian podcast could have an older woman, ideally one with a hard-to-dress shape, address these issues practically.
I'm technically younger and this is how i feel too. As teenager i never knew how to make an "outfit" and thought that was "wordly" anyway (for those public schoolers, haha) so I never wanted to. As an adult the problem has continued because even though I no longer feel the need to only wear a simple jeans and t-shirt style, I can't afford any of the things required for putting together pretty, coordinated outfits.
Not only that, but I have no idea what looks good on my body. My mom sometimes gives her thoughts on what things go together, but she has a different body type and basically everything fits her. Basically, my style is just poor and plain. I really want to be feminine, but the best I can do is a nice hairstyle paired with a hoodie and jeans. And that's assuming my hair is having a good day (it's wavy-curly and appears to hate me).
@@joys.6347 Hey! I have wavy/curly hair too!
I've been thinking of starting a blog that fills this need, but realized that niche may already be filled.
I've started researching Christian fashion and modest fashion blogs. They are certainly out there, but none so far fill the exact need I have in mind. They seem to assume the readers are stylish and have money already, and just want to be more modest. And so far, they tend to have affiliate links.
Anyway, would that be something you're interested in?
@@joys.6347 I tried to reply to you, but it seems to have disappeared.
I'm a curly girl too. The rules for curly hair are basically opposite to those for straight. Took me years to figure this out. I recommend the book Curly Girl.
Would you find helpful a web site or blog that helps young Christian women think thru these issues? I've lightly researched Christian fashion web sites, and there are some good ones, but so far I haven't seen one that fills this exact niche.
Amen to this! I am 42 years old. It took me a lot of years to figure out what dressing modesty even is with my body shape. I am a curvy woman and have been since a teen when I went through puberty and developed. The attention from males of all ages began when I was young. I had adults tell me to dress modestly, but nobody helped me learn how to find clothing that was modest and looked good with my body shape. I spent my younger years covered from neck to toes thinking I was modest because I was covered, but my clothing hugged my curves and showed off my body shape. When I hit mid 30s was when I felt conviction to start wearing dresses, but my first attempts at finding dresses were pathetic; those first dresses hugged my curves like my tight clothing. My own mother laughed at me and told me if I thought dresses were more modest, I hadn’t seen myself from behind in those dresses because “there is no hiding that booty.” So I started to pay more attention to how Mennonite women dress and women in churches that emphasize modesty. I slowly found dresses that look good, but do so without drawing attention to my curves. I actually have had a few dresses custom made to fit using my measurements, which is a GAME CHANGER!
@@naomimay82 Agree. Tailoring is the gold standard, but not everyone can afford it at every stage of their life.
"I am becoming increasingly more modest as I become less attractive." 😂
That is exactly the problem, tho. If we try to motivate people to modesty using shame over their appearance, there are several ways it will backfire.
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev It's a joke. They were laughing because that line of reasoning would reveal a problem with THEIR HEART, not a problem with the standard. It's not really our job to make people WANT to be more modest... We simply explain what God requires and then each person can choose either to move toward glorifying Him...or glorify their own flesh. The folks who choose their flesh will simply sound as laughable as the one who says "I get more modest the uglier I get!" 😂 Sin is foolishness -- but there's nothing I can do to "motivate" a fool, if that's what he/she has chosen to be.
@@amandamckinney928 I was thinking in terms of parenting. I think many parents unintentionally shame their daughters over their appearance in an attempt to make them modest. Parenting is one case where you are building values and attitudes. Not motivating in the sense of mercenary motivation, but explaining the reasons we do what we do, setting norms, and giving an emotional tone to the household.
If daughters grow up associating modesty standards with rebuke or with shame over the way they look, they are likely to become immodest later. Either they lose weight and think, "I'm attractive enough to dress this way now," or they remain "ugly" but reason that it doesn't matter if no one is looking ("modesty is just for attractive people who might tempt others to lust"), or, if they are confident but have been given the impression that having an attractive woman's body is sinful because their parents first got ashamed of them when they went through puberty, they might become immodest as a rebellious gesture against being shamed over things that are not behavior and that they can't help.
tldr; I realize it was a joke, but it reflects a very real attitude that is out there and that we want to avoid communicating to our children.
@@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev
The men in this video offered very simple and helpful advice to parents. It's obvious from their conversation that they understand what's happening in the culture right now, and I am thankful for their advice. 😊
@@amandamckinney928 I agree. I came to it a bit wary, and left feeling reassured. Although they don't understand all the complexities of getting dressed as a woman, they at least take a reasonable, grace-filled approach.
We're people who would disagree on headcoverings only on the Lord's day. We agree with Dale Partridge on this subject
I cannot believe how women and girls dress these days and yoga pants are just the beginning of it! Sometimes their mothers are right there with them so it is not as if they are sneaking away from home to do it. This is quite bizarre to me and makes me wonder if the mothers get second-hand satisfaction out of seeing their daughters like that. I don't often see fathers accompanying daughters dressed like (what Santa says 😂)
The amount of teaching and parenting that must precede this stance on modesty is significant (unless your wife or daughter is completely insulated from all the fashionable immodesty on TV, movies, magazines, online, billboards, mannequins, at school, etc). Simply saying "I forbid you to dress like that" after all that worldly input is not going to cut it.
I also would not go to the beach without a shirt in company of sisters in Christ but I would with a bunch of brothers. Similarly, seeing a sister prance around with next to nothing on at the beach would present quite the conundrum- especially if I am used to seeing her dressed modestly on Sunday. Plus when you are wet things tend show through your clothing so that wouldn't be sanctifying.
Having said that, a modestly dressed believing woman is a beautiful thing 🤩
I witness every week at the grocery store senior (grandmothers) wearing leggings as pants. And no. They are not wearing a long tunic top or shorter dress with their leggings either.
@@BelindaTN Boys at the elementary school level are now wearing leggings (tights? Compression leggings?) to school. At least they are wearing athletic shorts/basketball shorts over them.
@@elijahgrajkowski2505 Do you mean for sports or just as a fashion trend?
@@solideomusical I am betting that teenage boys and young men don’t believe modestly dressed women are beautiful. At least they never act like they do. Lol Seriously though. It is such a struggle to try and live in society without being swallowed up by it.
Why is it ok to take off your shirt at the beach? Even if you are there with other men. There will be women at the beach too, some of whom might be believers. You might cause one of them to have impure thoughts
Hello! This is VERY helpful! Thank you.
"Like a gold ring in a pig’s snout is a beautiful woman without discretion."
Lest it be thought that the woman is the gold ring. The w is the pig, and her beauty is the gold ring
Lest it be thought that the w is the gold ring... The w is the oink, and the beauty the w has is the gold ring
Yt would not let you see the full word for w in the same sentence as anything of remotely negative connotation. The sensirshp is out of this world
The W meaning “woman”?
@@MansterBear yeah yt won't let me say it
Thank you so much from Breaux Bridge, Louisiana. I truly appreciate your ministry.
@@paulasueInChrist thank you for your encouragement.
Amen. Need bold men to speak up on this.
I needed to hear this. Thank you for your faithful work.
EXCELLENT conversation my brothers!!!
I’m no expert on fashions but I do take into consideration seasons and environments. I’ve lived in the tropics, for example, so wearing less was sensible. The idea of people covering up and fainting made zero sense.
In the 1950s, a woman would get arrested for what "Christian women" wear to the pool or beach today.
Facts
Braiding the hair would be equivalent as someone using a Gucci or Louis Vuitton bag to church
@ShopRat-cf9trbraiding the hair with gold and silver threads as the ancients were doing to ostentatiously display their wealth-that is the comparison being made, as they did in the video.
@@elijahgrajkowski2505I'm pretty sure if they wore the same hairstyles without gold that paul would condemn it equally
@ShopRat-cf9tr essentially, yes.
For whatever it's worth,
LV bags are well over $40,000s. I dont know much, but I doubt quality is a factor for the price. It's probably just conspicous signaling of status.
I dont know that the price of gold is as high; but I suppose the time it takes to braid it in is just as unreasonable as wearing handbags that cost as much as a car or a tiny home on wheels. I think that ostentatious braids with interwoven gold signals that one has the leisure of time to be able to flaunt ones possesions in such a fashion.
🤷🏾♀️
@ShopRat-cf9trReally elaborate hairstyles would take hours to do and had to be done by a slave.
Just finished listening to this on spotify, I think the conversation of music would make a fantastic topic for a video, I sat there listening to this, with a heavy metal band shirt on just thinking to myself "I'm gonna have to get rid of my entire wardrobe" I have been a huge fan of heavy metal my entire life but it tends to be a vulgar genre,
But some bands are explicitly Christian (i.e impending doom)
Your point with hip hop is more an issue with lyrics then the actual genre correct me if I am wrong.
what kind of music is acceptable for a christian to listen to?
Great question. I’m the guy on the left in the video and I’ve enjoyed metal for most of my life as well. Unlike most rap, however, metal typically adheres to classic music frameworks such as melody, bridge, timing, etc. The lyrics, as you mentioned, are often more serious too than the trivial content of rap music. This isn’t to say that just like Impending Doom there couldn’t possibly be rap that is well composed and God glorifying: it is just that most of it is raucous noise.
@@Wesley_Todd thank you for answering my questions, I've recently become a fan of your show so I really appreciate this, I totally agree
@@Wesley_Todd You might wanna check out Shai Linne! I was raised listening to his music. His style might not be to your preference-it’s not entirely to mine-but he is a fantastic rapper and his songs are ENTIRELY Biblical. (Except that he’s Amill but at least he ain’t a Dispy lol.) He’s a pastor as a matter of fact, and does a lot of lyrical theology that truly does explain theological concepts very well. I’d also recommend JStu if you want some fun songs, especially stuff kids might enjoy as well as adults, and Isaac Quazzo if you want some deeper stuff (though they each have both). While I may not always agree with everything they say (I can’t think of anything at the moment), I agree with most of it and they’re definitely worth supporting.
Doug Wilson says that a Christian can listen to any songs that don’t contradict the ones you sing on Sunday morning and I wholeheartedly agree!
I believe hip hop is not a genre of music. It is a verbal performance art form. If the subject matter were godly, or merely clever or funny, it could be highly entertaining and also impressive as extempore rhyming poetry. I have heard similar genres overseas.
Thank you for this, as I believe it's very supportive in women being honored.
So there should be no co-ed gathering if youre not looking for s spouse? That's ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?
@@scottyyoch3537not every person you meet is a potential spouse. Friendship for its own sake is a valid relationship.
Do you think that men and women can be friends and stay that way?
@@scottyyoch3537Of course they can.
@@lepp6598 I think that's where we don't agree
In my experience, there are unmet expectations on one side or another in that situation
Either the man wants to get with one of the women and represses it, or the woman keeps the man around for attention
What have you seen?
Thank you from Breaux Bridge, Louisiana.
My only problem with this is that it ignores the fact that modesty is relative to culture and the Bible doesn't actually say "never wear xyz". In the middle east, it's immodest to show your hair in public. Thus Christian women shouldn't. In traditional Amazon tribal cultures, no one blinks at topless women. (Granted exposure to nakedness at a young age desensitizes everyone)
I'm not arguing that western Christian women should go about topless, but we need a realistic and reasonable assessment of what is actually modest in America before we start rattling off rules.
That's the problem
Modesty is not culturally defined, is is defined by heaven
Brian Sauce is awesome on this subject!
Agreed. *Sauve
When I was a teen, I was genuinely perplexed by the passage about braided hair. It's not always being cute. It was helpful to hear the explanation that upper -class women would literally sprinkle gold dust into their hair.
Yoga pants everywhere all the time, ugh
Great discussion, thank you so much.
I really want to add to the part about women dressing more feminine. I think when we talk about women and dress the conversation is always dominated by modesty, and understandably. But I think there are some other aspects that get lost. One of the issues is, how does a woman dress in a way that is both modest and feminine?
Our culture has become adrogynous in fashion, and the church has lost a lot of ground in this too. Men and women basically dress the same. A T-Shirt, Pants, and sneakers. Compare that to our culture 200 years ago, you could see a man and a woman's profile from a far off distance, and from the shape of their clothes alone: a bonnette and a dress for a woman and a hat and a suite for a man; you could tell who the man was and who the woman was.
I think a return to women wearing dresses and skirts and men wearing collared shirts and pants with boots or something like that is a good way to return to reclaiming clothing.
Totally agree with you. My girls and I just wear dresses and skirts and we enjoy that.
Yeah I appreciate a woman that wears a dress
One of the strangest experiences of my life was briefly working near an orthodox Jewish community. Because I wasn't used to seeing traditional modestly garbed women. And I had the shocking realization that I hadn't seen women or girls wear an actual dress in ages! And it made me wonder why in Western culture we shun the every day wear of dresses for women.
Another wonderful passage of scripture is Titus 2:3-5.
If I knew of a church in my area where I could go to listen to sermons like this, I would go to church. As it is, I don't go to church, in part because I believe that churches which do not call out female sin are a danger to my marriage.
I completely agree with much of what was said, but I feel like the conclusion you gentlemen arrived at regarding bathing suits was a bit silly.
Different clothing is appropriate in different contexts, and most bathing suits for both men and women are not designed to be provokative. Similarly, consider nude art- there is plenty of nude art which is not sexually provokative. People don't walk into the Sistine Chapel and get aroused by the many depictions of the unclothed human body.
I'm not sure what the female perspective is, but I do recognize there are many bathing suits which are meant to be provokative, but ordinary people don't typically wear those. As stated previously, context is the big thing here.
Just as you said you do not believe women need to wear á head covering every day, I do not think it is necessary for Christian fólk to abstain from swimming.
And the thing about Christians needing to think twice before vacationing at one of God's marvelous oceans also seems pretty silly. Sure, we shouldn't go to a nude beach, and we should stay away from beaches that are know for being party locations, but it seems kind of crazy to avoid a normal family vacation spot.
I know you gentlemen were proposing these ideas and almost instantly forming á reply, so perhaps you would reword some of these ideas, or reconsider them, but these are just my thoughts on what was said.
God bless you, and may the Spirit be with you.
Men, leave your ball cap at home on Sunday.
Is there a setting for closed captioning that needs to be selected on Joel's end? This is the only channel where Closed Captioning doesnt seem to automatically be added after a few hours after the live stream. Thanks in advance for assistance.
It’s there now.
It's usually attributed to Luther but he didn't say it:
4:31
“If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.”
-Fritz from The Chronicles of the Schoenberg Cotta Family (Thomas Nelson, 1864) by Elizabeth Rundle Charles
There is a CREC pastor that says John Calvin and others wore hate in church! I was shocked.
where can I find the book by the Oxford professor?
How about women spending so much money on hair care products, perms/coloring, salon visits, etc? Could that be a modern day equivalent of the jewels and gold braided into their hair?
I think that is a good modern equivalent. They are not necessarily sinful but very well may be unwise
In a world of Lizzo immodesty isnt always a lust temptation. The immodest women of the past at least had healthy bodies to show off. Just sayin
This is great! Thanks
Two things I've never understood:
1. Why women say they *have* to wear spandex to excerise because it's too hot otherwise. Men manage to do it in t-shirts and shorts so why can't you??
2. Why men take off their shirt to swim. Women can manage just fine with a swim shirt or just a t-shirt over a bathing suit, so why can't men do it too??
And personally, I like it when men keep their shirts on. Whether a woman struggles with lust or not, going shirtless is still half-naked and it's a lot to show off. I'm not interested in seeing that much.
I'm also a woman who is naturally always warm (yes, i break the "women are always cold" stereotype) and I have excercised just fine in regular clothes so I have a hard time believing it when others say they need their skin-tight althetic wear.
I would definitely agree with you. I'm more comfortable and sweat less in shorts and a tank top than in spandex leggings. That would make me warmer! There's no way people NEED to wear them for comfort.
I actually can understand not liking to swim in a t-shirt, though (I don't like the added drag in water and the weight of it when wet outside the water). But my suggestion for men and women are swim shirts. They are made of a material that won't slow you down in water or hang heavily on you when out of the water! A "rash guard" is another term for them, and they can be very modest (t-shirt and even long-sleeved versions). My brothers and I grew up wearing them to the pool, and they have all the hydrodynamic positives of a swim suit, but the covering of clothing.
Oh, wow... I missed that you actually said "swim shirts" in your original comment. My bad!🤣
I think the quote at the start of the discussion is not Spurgeon. Although he may have said someting similer. "It is the truth which is assailed in any age which tests our fidelity. It is to confess we are called, not merely to profess. If I profess, with the loudest voice and the clearest exposition, every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christianity. Where the battle rages the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle-field besides is mere flight and disgrace to him if he flinches at that one point."
Elizabeth Rundle Charles,
I have heard that quote attributed to Martin Luther.
Luther had a quote with the same sentiment, but it referred specifically to the Lord's Supper. Makes sense, sine that was a big issue in his day. The E.R. Charles quote is from circa 1850, so she generalized the idea.
Dress is in part cultural. Different cultures have different expressions of what constitutes modesty.
There was a time when men wore pants and women wore skirts, even during work.
If a man's pants can be made feminine and acceptable for women to wear, I don't know what grounds one could forbid the making of skirts and dresses masculine and acceptable for men to wear.
Great episode Pastor Joel, but I do believe you made a category error in terms of not differentiating the sinful hip hop *culture* and hip hop/rap as an art itself.
Yes, granted, the art itself, so far, has historically been used for subversive & revolutionary means, but there isn't anything inherently sinful about the art itself. To say otherwise would be unbiblical.
Rap literally stands for "Rhythm And Poetry," it can be redeemed, it's not witchcraft or divination.
A faithful Brother in The Lord & friend of mine came up with *rags* instead of rap, which stands for "Rhythm And Gospel-Scripture" & his work is a great testimony to how rap can be redeemed to the glory of Christ
His artist name is "Brother Prays", his 1st album "Without Ceasing" is available on Spotify.
And what would you say to Timothy Brindle, Wrath and Grace, Hazakim, Beautiful Eulogy faithful Christian artists of the world who use hip hop as the ART (not the sinful culture) to glorify God ?
You may not like it because the devil has perverted it fof evil, but to condemn it altogether is merely a preference, and it can't be defended biblically.
Thanks for your faithful work, Pastor, and may God continue to bless your ministry & reward your boldness ! 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Truman? What book mentions dance? 43:24
My wife and I had just gotten married and we were on our way to Church. I was waiting in the car for my new wife. She gets in the car and I start driving only to notice that she had on yoga pants.
Needless to say we turned around and got some correct clothing on there...
Amen!
There are reformed and even patriarchal women on Twitter, who believe, and I assume practice that they can win their husbands over without a word, yet they also believe and practice that they can win, pagan men outside of their household over with their words
Regarding women wearing pants, what about skinny jeans/pants? Do you approve of skinny jeans? Is there a difference between them and yoga pants? Most women wearing pants are wearing skinny jeans.
Great question
Or the jeans with big rips and tears in them.
I think it depends on how tight they really are. When I was a kid I was so skinny that the super skinny jeans were loose on me lol. For some ladies, there may be a pair of skinny jeans that they can wear modestly, and another pair that they can’t. I wear leggings sometimes that are too tight to be modest, so I sometimes wear a short skirt over them or a long shirt or a jacket around my waist. I also wear ripped-repaired jeans; they’ve got big tears but with fabric sewn in underneath so as not the show any skin. I think it’d be fine if it were just the knees but big holes at the upper thigh are not okay and that’s how most ripped jeans that I’ve seen are. I actually wear denim shorts with rips in them but they don’t draw attention to my skin. This is my view as a Christian woman who often struggles to find modest outfits.
I was reading in 1st Peter this morning, chapter 3, this passage and related along with the Holy Spirit are the only resources Christian women need. That thumbnail...I guess it's called...is very offensive.
Concerning music, I found out recently that the phrase "rock n roll" (which is the root genre of rap/hip hop, country, pop, etc) is a euphemism for fornication.
Stop.
Is it the 1950's? Y'all out here gasping over rock music and 'fornication'?
@@aallen5256They are linked to each other. People tend to let their guard down when there is music playing in the background.
@@nerychristian Oh right.. what sort of music would be allowed in America if it was run by Christian Nationalists??
So what kind of head covering are we talking about? A hat (specific hat), scarf on the head? Handkerchief on the head? Does all the hair have to be covered? Fashion kind of hat?
What type of head covering (other than something but the hair) is not defined in the bible. Women who follow this biblical ordinance have a wide variety of styles and types that they use. Hats, scarves, bandannas, tichels, snoods, wide headbands, etc. I know Pst Joel's wife wears one but don't know which type and I believe it's just for church. However, there are a wide variety of opinions on the subject. The Bible says for prayer and prophecy. Most would agree that is definitely for church but can extend to private bible study or other occasions. Covering all the hair is also up for discussion. From my observances, I'd say 1/2 do cover the hair, the other 1.2 don't. But, it may not necessarily be related to head covering per 1 Corinthians 11. Personally, I started covering as a most of the time deal and often the hair. Then it went to top of the head (or more) but hair is fine. Then I went to church and anytime in public but I covered my hair because of sin issues in my heart. Then went back to covering the head and sometimes hair just based on it I wanted my hair up or down. Now, after further study and due to personal conviction and talking to my husband; I cover almost all the time and, in public, I cover my hair. If you are interested in more discussion and information, I can point you to a facebook group that has a variety of views. You can also look at the headcovering movement (website by that name).
@@angelajoy6789 thanks!
There are a couple websites Garlands of Grace, and Glory&Grace that have different styles available.
@@comfortandjoy9489 GoG is taking a break and they have limited stock left.
I like strong opinions, but modesty isnt about pants and headcoverings. I agree that church ladies are coming in worldly.
What I find interesting about this topic in my culture the way you guys are dressed would be considered for show and not particularly masculine. On any given day we'll have a truck with a horse trailer on it and a truck load of cowboys in service straight off the horse. Your dress in your service in my culture does not have a biblical look, you will be pegged as a Mormon!
In bible college I had a dorm mate from south Africa, one day he broke down with struggling with lust, we were all blown away because all the girls on campus were very modest. He illustrated the issue by showing us a picture of him and his church, all the women were bare breasted BUT covered completely from the waste to the top of their feet. He struggled with seeing any part of a woman basically to the floor. Culturally our struggles were exact opposite. We got the girls to help us at times to make the mixed setting easier for him but we also worked with him to as it wasn't the girls issue it was his cultural issue that needed worked through or he needed to remove himself if he couldn't bring it under control.
Honest question. What about nudity in art?
Good question. I think Michaelango’s David is acceptable for example because it is truly artistic with no attempt to titillate. But the feminine form is almost impossible to present in nude form without having a sexual component. Good art would likely avoid nudity BUT it is also a far cry from pornography and cheap smut.
I found something I disagree on with Joel. I am shocked.
Joel, brother, ill say it as plainly and straight faced as you said it and even look into the camera as I do. Hip Hop is for the Lord! Not the rap music that trash world produces, no but Hip Hop like Timothy Brindle and others like that. Most definitely brother. Done in a God glorifying way, Hip Hop absolutely is beautiful. Grace and peace.
This would be a great topic for discussion on their show at some point. Can hip hop/rap be redeemed for Christ? The one brother there alluded to jazz music. When jazz was birthed, it was a red light district music in the brothels and sleezy dives of New Orleans. It was considered a low-brow and vulgar music. However, over the decades, it became elevated and very high-brow, growing into an actual sophisticated art form. It has been disassociated from its past, in a way. SOME rock n roll falls into this same category. What started as youthful rebellion music of sexual license isn’t necessarily found in all present forms of music that use the same elements (amplified electric guitars, drum set, electric bass, falsetto in male vocals, backbeat, etc.).
I agree with Joel that hip-hop is revolting garbage that shouldn't be called 'music' at all. Are there people who have tried to buck this? Probably, but a salmon swimming upstream doesn't change the course of the river.
@@solideomusical If he was alive in the 50's, Joel would be saying that Little Richard and Chuck Berry were 'revolting garbage that shouldn't be called music'.
@@aallen5256 Poor conparison between taste and nature
@@solideomusical It's not about taste, it's about the nature of Joel, who gives the game away in the first six minutes when he says "I'm not saying there isn't sinful racism ... but the headline of the story is that white people are not racist against minorities".
Well, Joel is wrong on ABS lol
Joel is wrong on a lot of things.😐
@@zldt but not as much as you!
@@JR-rs5qs That's questionable.
Of course these are same the same talking points the Taliban made to US. Forces in Afghanistan. But, what do I know.
But I look really good in a two-piece.
You're not a Christian are you?
Oy vey! 52:35
What do they think of men in tight pants !!!!! HA HA
Question: if a dude shows up in your church, in a dress on the Lord's day, would someone automatically confront him?
If so, would you also confront the woman who shows up in a suite and tie like what a man should wear?
And how would you confront her?
If not, why.
I suppose it would be a case by case basis. Like, if the dude in a dress thought it was a trans affirming church by accident. Maybe you'd just preach repentance and faith to that person.
What would that look like?
Thank God for this. All the young women at my old church dressed so lewd!!!
What about tattoos?
I agree - I think of tattoos as body graffiti that became popular first with the tramp stamp women would get on their lower back and had grown to be a national pandemic of obsurdity and ugliness. I think it became popular with porn was mainstreamed . And if the choices of clothing is a deliberate act, getting a tattoo surely is also.
People make unwise choices and don’t even care whether they are permanent or not. And the tattoo is the ultimate virtue signal or non-virtue signal really. There are other theories that say it shows the instability of society’s bad the lack of both faith in a god or faith that there is anything stable in the world - hence a permanent tattoo that remains permanent. There is probably truth in those ideas as well and this would trace to the breakdown of the traditional biblical nuclear family. Somehow tattoos became a mainstream fashion statement.
Oh honey, women can be lustful..
People should mind their own business
Hard to with half-naked women parading in front of you
Good. Then I expect you to turn off your laptop or phone and mind your own business
@@nerychristianIf only men could do the same
Clothing, hairstyles, etc etc Traditions vary by country. Question your salavation. All people modesty and non- modest traditions. And work it out with fear and trembling of the LORD. Perfect Love cast out all fear so repent and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is perfect Love. Because Jesus Christ is perfect. The perfect unspotted lamb who died for the sins of the world, rose and sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven interceding for us in prayer. And provides salvation for all those who faithfully believe in His ransom. The Holy Spirit will work all things out of those who believe. Sanctifying them in this life.
Blame the rape victim. Abused child. battered wife. Its got nothing to do with men
Is this for real??
That’s wicked.
There's always one of them in the comments section. Please forgive her. Her programming doesn't allow her another response. She only has 3 responses programmed into her... Race card, gender card, orange man bad.
Saying that men have a greater temptation to lust may be just an excuse for not putting enough internal work to fight the evil thoughts. I would answer with Jesus words from scripture Mk 7.15. I am not defending practice of walking around half naked by any men or women, I'm only saying don't blame beauty for men's mess within. Gentelmen shall know the difference between being exposed toward half of a chest to half of a leg or arm. Just don't see woman as temptation, get healed from your mentality hurt by sins, repent, live and let let us live not feeling guilty of your indomitable imagination. Period.
Regarding men restraining themselves in dress, remember the dandies of yesteryear? What about the peacocking of today? It might be worth looking into Pitti Ummo.
finger-tapping....
I disagree if I may. If you base modesty on a covering then we should be dressing like Muslims. You say covering prevents lust, yet my research showed an image of the highest rates of rape of the major religions and the Muslim religion had the most.
So applying modesty as if it's a covering you end up with opinions of what's modest and not.
Modesty is not a covering for the blood of Jesus covers us, but modesty is about relating to one another with humility.
The Bible says modesty isn't with gold, pearls, and lavish, expensive clothing. It says to wear what's appropriate, normal, clothing.
Jesus is our example. His clothes didn't isolate him from what the rest of his society wore. He actually showed skin in humility when he took off His garments and girded himself with a towel to wash their feet.
God told Moses to dress Isreal men, women, boys and girls in Egyptian clothing which is quite revealing. They wore Egyptian clothing all the way into the promised land.
Lust is not looking at a beautiful woman and admiring that. We admire beauty in every aspect of life. Lusting for a woman is different, it is the intention to have sex if possible. Any criminal can be guilty based on intention, but the victim isn't. Even if a store tempted me to buy something, it's not the stores fault I fell for an item. It's mine. Don't blame a temptation, but admire all that you like and be happy with what you have. And be happy for others sake for what God has given them.
Wear bikinis with people that wear them. Be shirtless with those that are shirtless. Be welcoming with what you wear. Be the love of Jesus, a beautiful heart, a beautiful life to share with others. ❤