I wished they go through an actual example for Top Down vs Product leaders doing product strategy. The challenge I see at times is when finding the sweet spot of what is a bet that leaders can hand down to product teams vs what is handing down a roadmap. Without finding that sweet spot, we get to confusing situations like when you disagree with leaders (see comment from @orgrinberg7977). This is maybe because of inconsistent language, they are confused on what is "features" to hand down vs "bets" to hand down. I haven't read the new book, so hopefully there are more details there.
In my opinion, the product needs a pilot, to drive it. It can be the PM , it can be the vp and sometimes it is the ceo itself. Who holds the stratigic plan in his hands ? The PM needs to be clever to do the work, at the level he can.
After listening through 50 mins about what is not, what is not, what is not, things start to click for me: It is more than delivery; it is more than optimization! It is about leading new value. (discover, shape, and bet new value through product offering). To the nutshell, Product Team (2.0) = Innovation + Product Team
As a beginner explorer of this field feeling so fortunate to have the right definition of the role and everything around it from the best himself. Such a refreshing episode, thanks Marty AND Lenny for making this happen!
Listening to Marty always always takes you back to the foundational of Product. It is like a lemonade on a summer day. Refreshing! Thanks Lenny, you are the best as always.
The clarifications in this interview were refreshing, particularly when Marty defined empowered teams: Product Leaders provide the bets and Product Teams provide the solutions. So powerful. And wow Lenny, nice to know that your interviewees find your podcast as interesting as the rest of us! Way to go sir!
i have the same belief, the fact that the material and courses out in market is already spoiling our next generation which is a fact, i am going to contribute from my side on whatever i can, thank you @lenny for this one.
I feel there is so much to what Marty is saying about really good people, "in Earnest" trying to do the right thing. "The willing worker" as deming used to say. There's so much to being lucky, to being fortunate enough to have the right exposure to truly Customer focused ways of working. Lots of noise to find healthy ways of working, i really care about the outcomes of teams and solving problems. The world is a better place for myself, my kids, my friends and it's sustainable all around. There's an og by the name of deming that focused on product experimentation almost 70 years ago. He was part of a group that transformed Japan in ww2. At the end of the day all the learnings and practices fell to "the prevailing system of management". Had gm and Ford not been bailed out by us government, theater may not be a description of modern knowledge work
As a PM for the last 6 years - Marty is 100% correct BUT when you have A set of managers and a board of directors, you are sometimes bound to deliver features you don't believe in. and if you disagree with them, you will quickly find yourself unemployed.
Same Shit happened in my life. My boss was female and only one year older than me. She hired me because I can support her in a sense of sympathy. I tried my best but couldn't sustain until the MAU dropped to 1/3 and told her the bad truth. And now she tells me to leave the commpany.
And then the problems are being turned into features to deliver the outcomes.... and now ...they are feature teams that ... solved the problem and are working to deliver the outcome ... Oh the wordplay is wonderful!
For the most part I agree with Marty and love the candid perspective. I wonder if he has noticed something I have (15+ years), which is that many members of the executive management around product today are $$ people, i.e., lots of MBAs, many of whom have never worked in product at the hands-on level but are now SVPs of product or CPOs. The directives that come from these guys with an "or else" attached have changed the expectations of what the role is all about. It becomes a bit of a culture clash, no?
Really good vision of the state of product in 2024 One problem I have seen with empowered product teams vs. Feature teams : it’s too vague for executives. Telling them “we’ll improve the product and fix problems” against a feature that sales say could bring X in revenue. One seems concrete and brings B2B revenue, the other one seems more uncertain
I've been rewatching this for a few times now, I'm a recent grad and been eyeing on product roles. I dont seem to understand most of whats going on aside from product roles not being defined well by companies, inconsistencies with actual PM practice
Great interview, from my experinece I can share that even when company wants to switch to product way , work on outcomes, not on outputs, company fails because accounting, board is not outcome driven. It is much easier for board and accouting to use feature factories, project approach for planning budget. So even when company experiments with empowerd product team at the end Product Manager is asked for road map of items and time table "you know, just for accounting, to get founding" and thats spoils whol way of working
Good interview. Here's my thoughts on 2 reasons: 1. PMs are afraid to lose a job & become order-takers instead of boiling the ocean. 2. Today, PMs who boil the ocean and do the right thing are nixed because "leadership" (layers of them) likes status quo (easy paycheck).
As someone who's an aspiring Product Manager super helpful to learn what Product Management ISN'T as well as what it IS! Rivian is my dream vehicle. Thanks for the great Podcast!
7:41 Lenny’s try to hold the onair face tight when Marty said he’s a paid subscriber 😂 11:57 Marty giving a reality check to all companies who’s polishing their ideas kn this podcast 😂😂
Many times the reason why they have so many project managers or product managers who do project management is they think the engineers can't be trusted to do the work on their own. They think they need some sort of authority figure over them to manage them.
I hope this episode serves as an awakening call to all the founders and product leaders who say we can’t do things this way. Truly valuable lesson here.
The reality with many good cultures is that the product team is given a mix of "time to money" problems and "time to market" requirements to drive. In that very common scenario it is up to Product to find the optimal balance.
I would love for him to dive deep into why feature teams form. I think the real reason of why we have roles like PO and “Product Assistants” is because leadership fails at strategy and outlining those bets to go after and it results in lack of focus (build all the things), which then results in feature teams. At least that’s how I see it.
Feature teams is very close to a relic of "fixed skill set bank accounts to deposit from when needed". Also known as "resources". Which traces back to the first modern innovation, assembly line, economies of scale, fordism, taylorism. Not new things, just self-propagating and hand me down leadership and product playbooks.
Great interview! One criticism I've always had for Marty is that he argues that PMs should always do what the best companies do. I don't disagree, I work in a product led company. But I'd love to see some first principles thinking or, even better, empirical support for this approach. I wonder whether feature factories exist because the business model doesn't have the margin or opportunity to see substantial return from this approach or if they just have people who are incapable of doing this (I've definitely seen the latter)
Given my background studies in enteprises at scale: "feature factory" or "sales led" orgs have one common problem statement: weak Marketing culture (push culture or bad understanding of market research and reuse) - That's why the industrial design parallel is relevant. The fact that a lot of money was thrown at "innovation" without validating a market need did not help. Herd mentality to have/want the latest feature isn't helping either. Some technologies may have been premature on the market. Also airbnb example- as much as airbnb is cool i wonder if Lenny would confirm if airbnb would have taken off for re-use of existing spaces if the morgage/2008 recession would not have forced people to find alternative revenues. Not fair to attribute success without the market conditions at the time. Here's the marketing history evolution which did not catch on at scale as a competency for a wider org instead of an "industrial age functional department" or people don't know its history to see how they are repeating old mistakes (reinventing the wheel - engineering or sales teams tend to lack this knowhow, sales may be just chasing quota, the conflict between sales and marketing is known and old in most orgs - outside the tech bubble) fullscale.io/blog/the-evolution-of-marketing/
4 หลายเดือนก่อน
Hey Lenny, this episode is a must watch. Maybe because of lack of examples but I am still confuse about when you say CEOs, Product Leaders come up with the bets? What does this really mean, the bets? When talking about GenAI, in fact in ChatGPT and the PM skills, PM should have, but also digital people, is basic and "antique", logical thinking.
Agree with everything said here. Crazy thing is the number of companies still hiring specifically for product ownership or product operations and insisting on SAFe certification. You can understand the difference between adding value and just going through the motions, but if the company that's hiring you doesn't then you're stuck competing with all of the feature team people.
Pros: PMs will deliver value if they are given the right tools (data, team, and clear vision) Cons: If they go against management, even while supported by data, they could lose their jobs. Conclusion: Many PMs I know are frustrated because they want to offer more and provide value to their organizations. However, they are limited by management's objectives, which leads them to be feature-driven instead of championing a solution(s). I think picking a great company at the right stage has more influence to become a great PM.
Great podcast Lenny and Marty. One question that was not clear the ways to upskill PM. It was mentioned 90% of the online content is not right but then how to get that 10% and how to verify if it is right ???
If 90% of the market does not truly operate in “product mode”, it will be extremely difficult for most people to break out of this trap. The market in general is bad, companies in general are bad, and people don't have much choice.
Notes: Outcome over outputs. Value and viability. Creator and not facilitator. Expert on users, customers and Data. Deal with all issues. Deep understanding of market. PM vs FTPM.
How about this one: a SAFe RTE + program manager for just three teams? Plus a whole bunch of BAs, a scrum master, POs, a product manager, and an executive over those. The benefit of this arrangement was that most people didn't have to work more than 2 hours a day :)
A product manager is a creator focused on value (to the customer) and viability (to the business). A product manager should be an: Expert on users and customers Expert on data Expert on sales, data, monetisation etc
Roles like associate/assistant product managers are one of the only ways someone can transition to product management. Most of the roles want 3+ years of experience.
What is that Data Management Systems book in Marty's bookshelf at 7:37? It s the leftmost book in the lower shelf. Google does't seem to bring up that book by title.
I just asked Mary about this, here's his answer 🤯 -- That is actually the very first book published on database management systems, and the author was none other than my father, Carl Cagan. Published in 1973 by John Wiley & Sons He was also the first Computer Science PhD in the US.
If the C-suite would’ve asked our department to jump my product leader would’ve said how high meanwhile jumping and that was the major learning I’ve found, when I’ve implemented pm practices then they found a way to make sure I will move on and I did and that worked out for the better.
People reacting on this podcast will either get fired or have been fired from their product management role, but they will apply these principles in their own start up as a founder and will make it a unicorn for sure.
I like the part that Marty Cagan says that "We want people that genually care about our customers and about business and making lives better for them". If I had a cent for every time I said this, I wouldn't be watching this video now... I think there's a values crisis, (some/most??) people just don't care... Not talking specifically about product, but in general... its frustrating.
The problem of marty with POs stems from the same one he claims people have with PMs - he talked to bad POs who are really only backlog managers. A real PO is exactly what he claims a PM is - someone who is accountable for value and viability. For larger organizations I agree a team needs a PM as Marty describes, as the PO is much more akin to a CEO - prioritization on larger scale and strategic scope. But Scrum is defined for a one team (4-9 people). There, the PO and the PM is indeed typically one role, as you don't really need two people doing these activities full time in such a small scale. If you look at scaled scrum frameworks, they typically have a completely different definition of a PO - the scale changes the work. They will not assign a PO per team - then it's no longer Scrum. When you do that, you get the types of POs Marty is justifiably complaining about.
In my opinion, the product needs a pilot, to drive it. It can be the PM , it can be the vp and sometimes it is the ceo itself. Who holds the stratigic plan in his hands ? The PM needs to be clever to do the work, at the level he can.
I was laughing so hard. I love his strong language. Meanwhile I think it’s a losing battle. It’s human nature to be lazy to think and to criticize. Very few can do that.
I've seen product managers at companies trying their level best to actually innovate and upper management freaknig out and steering them towards good becoming feature teams. During mass layoffs who do you think got fired? The product manager.
Marty Cagan - We need to differentiate to a new designation. “Product Manager” to “Product something”. There is no way to police this, but highlight the outcome owners better
Disparaging remote work at this time is akin to condemning the utility of the first automobiles because of cobblestone roads. I'll wait for the sociology research to catch up.
I agree there’s a waste of positions of people in “product” that are making more noise than value, but what do you say to those individuals trying to get a job in product by way of those “wasted” titles. Everyone is just trying to be a part of the evolution, instead of pursuing the selective fraternity.
Agree. And not in a positive way but with over-salted criticism. I will listen for the second time to grasp the ideas better rather than the stile of spitting venom in the hope of winning customers and persuading.
I guess when he speaks about outcomes he speaks about metric measured outcomes(results), its not 100% clear what exactly he means, Marty is criticizing but he is not precise
Marty Cagan is sometimes too theoretical but I appreciate how Lenny pushes for practical advice.
I wished they go through an actual example for Top Down vs Product leaders doing product strategy. The challenge I see at times is when finding the sweet spot of what is a bet that leaders can hand down to product teams vs what is handing down a roadmap. Without finding that sweet spot, we get to confusing situations like when you disagree with leaders (see comment from @orgrinberg7977). This is maybe because of inconsistent language, they are confused on what is "features" to hand down vs "bets" to hand down. I haven't read the new book, so hopefully there are more details there.
In my opinion, the product needs a pilot, to drive it. It can be the PM , it can be the vp and sometimes it is the ceo itself. Who holds the stratigic plan in his hands ? The PM needs to be clever to do the work, at the level he can.
After listening through 50 mins about what is not, what is not, what is not, things start to click for me:
It is more than delivery; it is more than optimization!
It is about leading new value. (discover, shape, and bet new value through product offering).
To the nutshell, Product Team (2.0) = Innovation + Product Team
Interviews with Marty are the ones I click "like" button first and then start watching. Thank you, Lenny! Thank you, Marty!
Same ❤
Ditto!
Me too
As a beginner explorer of this field feeling so fortunate to have the right definition of the role and everything around it from the best himself. Such a refreshing episode, thanks Marty AND Lenny for making this happen!
Listening to Marty always always takes you back to the foundational of Product. It is like a lemonade on a summer day. Refreshing! Thanks Lenny, you are the best as always.
This podcast is amazing and eye opener to lot of people who just dont understand the product and project management. Thank you Lenny & Marty
The clarifications in this interview were refreshing, particularly when Marty defined empowered teams: Product Leaders provide the bets and Product Teams provide the solutions. So powerful. And wow Lenny, nice to know that your interviewees find your podcast as interesting as the rest of us! Way to go sir!
I did not get this part :(. Any good examples?
i have the same belief, the fact that the material and courses out in market is already spoiling our next generation which is a fact, i am going to contribute from my side on whatever i can, thank you @lenny for this one.
I feel there is so much to what Marty is saying about really good people, "in Earnest" trying to do the right thing. "The willing worker" as deming used to say.
There's so much to being lucky, to being fortunate enough to have the right exposure to truly Customer focused ways of working. Lots of noise to find healthy ways of working,
i really care about the outcomes of teams and solving problems. The world is a better place for myself, my kids, my friends and it's sustainable all around.
There's an og by the name of deming that focused on product experimentation almost 70 years ago. He was part of a group that transformed Japan in ww2. At the end of the day all the learnings and practices fell to "the prevailing system of management". Had gm and Ford not been bailed out by us government, theater may not be a description of modern knowledge work
Fastest click to watch ever, love Marty Cagan.
Lol same
As a PM for the last 6 years - Marty is 100% correct BUT when you have A set of managers and a board of directors, you are sometimes bound to deliver features you don't believe in. and if you disagree with them, you will quickly find yourself unemployed.
This right here. i have just been fired for that exact reason.
Hi, could you please guide me that how did you get into PM? Thanks in advance
@@RishabhDeora started as a Tech support and CRM specialist in a company i worked for and busted my ass off to get a chance , and luckily i did.
Same Shit happened in my life. My boss was female and only one year older than me. She hired me because I can support her in a sense of sympathy.
I tried my best but couldn't sustain until the MAU dropped to 1/3 and told her the bad truth.
And now she tells me to leave the commpany.
@@jypaik2000 that's horrible man, but you deserve better, so F**K that place.
And then the problems are being turned into features to deliver the outcomes.... and now ...they are feature teams that ... solved the problem and are working to deliver the outcome ... Oh the wordplay is wonderful!
For the most part I agree with Marty and love the candid perspective. I wonder if he has noticed something I have (15+ years), which is that many members of the executive management around product today are $$ people, i.e., lots of MBAs, many of whom have never worked in product at the hands-on level but are now SVPs of product or CPOs. The directives that come from these guys with an "or else" attached have changed the expectations of what the role is all about. It becomes a bit of a culture clash, no?
This was great. Will be sharing this widely!
Marty is an OG in product thought and I'm so glad we got another round of this
Really good vision of the state of product in 2024
One problem I have seen with empowered product teams vs. Feature teams : it’s too vague for executives. Telling them “we’ll improve the product and fix problems” against a feature that sales say could bring X in revenue.
One seems concrete and brings B2B revenue, the other one seems more uncertain
I've been rewatching this for a few times now, I'm a recent grad and been eyeing on product roles. I dont seem to understand most of whats going on aside from product roles not being defined well by companies, inconsistencies with actual PM practice
Great interview, from my experinece I can share that even when company wants to switch to product way , work on outcomes, not on outputs, company fails because accounting, board is not outcome driven. It is much easier for board and accouting to use feature factories, project approach for planning budget. So even when company experiments with empowerd product team at the end Product Manager is asked for road map of items and time table "you know, just for accounting, to get founding" and thats spoils whol way of working
Good interview. Here's my thoughts on 2 reasons:
1. PMs are afraid to lose a job & become order-takers instead of boiling the ocean.
2. Today, PMs who boil the ocean and do the right thing are nixed because "leadership" (layers of them) likes status quo (easy paycheck).
As someone who's an aspiring Product Manager super helpful to learn what Product Management ISN'T as well as what it IS! Rivian is my dream vehicle. Thanks for the great Podcast!
Great podcast!!! Great guest!!! Super valuable information!!!
Really good one, thanks Lenny and Marty, one of the best podcasts!
7:41 Lenny’s try to hold the onair face tight when Marty said he’s a paid subscriber 😂
11:57 Marty giving a reality check to all companies who’s polishing their ideas kn this podcast 😂😂
Many times the reason why they have so many project managers or product managers who do project management is they think the engineers can't be trusted to do the work on their own. They think they need some sort of authority figure over them to manage them.
Juat finished Inspired, by Marty. What a treat! Thanks again Lenny, keep the pace going! ❤
I hope this episode serves as an awakening call to all the founders and product leaders who say we can’t do things this way.
Truly valuable lesson here.
Loved this podcast… have been following Marty for many years
The reality with many good cultures is that the product team is given a mix of "time to money" problems and "time to market" requirements to drive. In that very common scenario it is up to Product to find the optimal balance.
Dear Lenny, where is the information mentioned in podcast?!!! It is a such a useful feature!
Am i the only one snooping around Marty's book shelf? 😂
I would love for him to dive deep into why feature teams form. I think the real reason of why we have roles like PO and “Product Assistants” is because leadership fails at strategy and outlining those bets to go after and it results in lack of focus (build all the things), which then results in feature teams. At least that’s how I see it.
Feature teams is very close to a relic of "fixed skill set bank accounts to deposit from when needed". Also known as "resources". Which traces back to the first modern innovation, assembly line, economies of scale, fordism, taylorism.
Not new things, just self-propagating and hand me down leadership and product playbooks.
That is an excellent insight. Thanks for sharing 👍
Great interview! One criticism I've always had for Marty is that he argues that PMs should always do what the best companies do. I don't disagree, I work in a product led company.
But I'd love to see some first principles thinking or, even better, empirical support for this approach. I wonder whether feature factories exist because the business model doesn't have the margin or opportunity to see substantial return from this approach or if they just have people who are incapable of doing this (I've definitely seen the latter)
Given my background studies in enteprises at scale: "feature factory" or "sales led" orgs have one common problem statement: weak Marketing culture (push culture or bad understanding of market research and reuse) - That's why the industrial design parallel is relevant. The fact that a lot of money was thrown at "innovation" without validating a market need did not help. Herd mentality to have/want the latest feature isn't helping either. Some technologies may have been premature on the market. Also airbnb example- as much as airbnb is cool i wonder if Lenny would confirm if airbnb would have taken off for re-use of existing spaces if the morgage/2008 recession would not have forced people to find alternative revenues. Not fair to attribute success without the market conditions at the time.
Here's the marketing history evolution which did not catch on at scale as a competency for a wider org instead of an "industrial age functional department" or people don't know its history to see how they are repeating old mistakes (reinventing the wheel - engineering or sales teams tend to lack this knowhow, sales may be just chasing quota, the conflict between sales and marketing is known and old in most orgs - outside the tech bubble)
fullscale.io/blog/the-evolution-of-marketing/
Hey Lenny, this episode is a must watch. Maybe because of lack of examples but I am still confuse about when you say CEOs, Product Leaders come up with the bets? What does this really mean, the bets?
When talking about GenAI, in fact in ChatGPT and the PM skills, PM should have, but also digital people, is basic and "antique", logical thinking.
Agree with everything said here. Crazy thing is the number of companies still hiring specifically for product ownership or product operations and insisting on SAFe certification. You can understand the difference between adding value and just going through the motions, but if the company that's hiring you doesn't then you're stuck competing with all of the feature team people.
Pros: PMs will deliver value if they are given the right tools (data, team, and clear vision)
Cons: If they go against management, even while supported by data, they could lose their jobs.
Conclusion: Many PMs I know are frustrated because they want to offer more and provide value to their organizations. However, they are limited by management's objectives, which leads them to be feature-driven instead of championing a solution(s). I think picking a great company at the right stage has more influence to become a great PM.
What do you do if your dev team is 100% outsourced? What it seems it forces PMs to stay closer to the day to day work.
two legends get together.
100 percent correct.
Lots of respect to you sir marty.
And very good video .
Good talk - thank you both.
Great podcast Lenny and Marty.
One question that was not clear the ways to upskill PM. It was mentioned 90% of the online content is not right but then how to get that 10% and how to verify if it is right ???
Read his books
If 90% of the market does not truly operate in “product mode”, it will be extremely difficult for most people to break out of this trap. The market in general is bad, companies in general are bad, and people don't have much choice.
I work in a company with feature teams and is exactly how Marty describes it.
Notes:
Outcome over outputs.
Value and viability.
Creator and not facilitator.
Expert on users, customers and Data.
Deal with all issues.
Deep understanding of market.
PM vs FTPM.
How about this one: a SAFe RTE + program manager for just three teams? Plus a whole bunch of BAs, a scrum master, POs, a product manager, and an executive over those. The benefit of this arrangement was that most people didn't have to work more than 2 hours a day :)
Best Book, Best Podcast, Best Interview but why only 100k views? - Product Manager from Korea
A product manager is a creator focused on value (to the customer) and viability (to the business).
A product manager should be an:
Expert on users and customers
Expert on data
Expert on sales, data, monetisation etc
The most valuable part for me as someone trying to become a GREAT product manager.
Marty Cagan is dope.💪
Hey Marty! Great interview!
As someone completely new to PM what good resources are recommended and prevent me from being in a “feature team”
Why does he say that having a product manager and a product owner is an anti-pattern? Can anyone share resources on that?
Roles like associate/assistant product managers are one of the only ways someone can transition to product management. Most of the roles want 3+ years of experience.
What is that Data Management Systems book in Marty's bookshelf at 7:37? It s the leftmost book in the lower shelf. Google does't seem to bring up that book by title.
I just asked Mary about this, here's his answer 🤯
--
That is actually the very first book published on database management systems, and the author was none other than my father, Carl Cagan.
Published in 1973 by John Wiley & Sons
He was also the first Computer Science PhD in the US.
Wow! Thanks for finding that out Lenny!
Received the book last Monday 4th in Europe. I highly recommend getting the book Transformed (and the other 2 to complete the trilogy of PM) 😊
Whoa, “Too many people in our industry view themselves as a victim of their company” I feel he was looking right at me! Called out. 1:01:09
I am with Marty Cagan....
If the C-suite would’ve asked our department to jump my product leader would’ve said how high meanwhile jumping and that was the major learning I’ve found, when I’ve implemented pm practices then they found a way to make sure I will move on and I did and that worked out for the better.
People reacting on this podcast will either get fired or have been fired from their product management role, but they will apply these principles in their own start up as a founder and will make it a unicorn for sure.
I like the part that Marty Cagan says that "We want people that genually care about our customers and about business and making lives better for them".
If I had a cent for every time I said this, I wouldn't be watching this video now...
I think there's a values crisis, (some/most??) people just don't care...
Not talking specifically about product, but in general... its frustrating.
What article is the one he mentions around minute 32 that made the rounds?
I watched this and I am having an identity crisis. Someone please share one of those product theatrics podcasts that Marty talks about.
The problem of marty with POs stems from the same one he claims people have with PMs - he talked to bad POs who are really only backlog managers. A real PO is exactly what he claims a PM is - someone who is accountable for value and viability.
For larger organizations I agree a team needs a PM as Marty describes, as the PO is much more akin to a CEO - prioritization on larger scale and strategic scope. But Scrum is defined for a one team (4-9 people). There, the PO and the PM is indeed typically one role, as you don't really need two people doing these activities full time in such a small scale.
If you look at scaled scrum frameworks, they typically have a completely different definition of a PO - the scale changes the work. They will not assign a PO per team - then it's no longer Scrum. When you do that, you get the types of POs Marty is justifiably complaining about.
Is there a way to like this video multiple times 😊
🤣🧡
This is gold
Great interview❤
In my opinion, the product needs a pilot, to drive it. It can be the PM , it can be the vp and sometimes it is the ceo itself. Who holds the stratigic plan in his hands ? The PM needs to be clever to do the work, at the level he can.
I was laughing so hard. I love his strong language. Meanwhile I think it’s a losing battle. It’s human nature to be lazy to think and to criticize. Very few can do that.
Whats the car rental startup that Marty mentioned in the lightening round?
Two of my faves!
I've seen product managers at companies trying their level best to actually innovate and upper management freaknig out and steering them towards good becoming feature teams. During mass layoffs who do you think got fired? The product manager.
Great stuff here
Marty Cagan - We need to differentiate to a new designation. “Product Manager” to “Product something”.
There is no way to police this, but highlight the outcome owners better
I'd say that for most of us, the product operating model and principles are actually the exception, not the rule :)
Who was the guest Lenny and Marty spoke about with respect to Product Ops? At 1:14:23
These two: th-cam.com/video/9VdixM9KPN4/w-d-xo.html, th-cam.com/video/tGS-NhxrN_Q/w-d-xo.html
Disparaging remote work at this time is akin to condemning the utility of the first automobiles because of cobblestone roads. I'll wait for the sociology research to catch up.
What was the book Marty recommended?
So, if most PM advice is wrong, then most of the advice on Lenny's Podcast is wrong too, according to Marty Cagan.
Finally someone told the truth))
Does someone recognize the book that has build on the name?
Tony Fadell, Build
Tony Fadell, Build
Thank you
A Rivian! And 2 BMW motorcycles! Wow! 😲 Tell me what your Product Leader drives and I'll tell you who you are! 😄👏
kindda not liking the number of Ads at the beginning
My version is "How do I know what I think until I see what I say?" 🙂
I agree there’s a waste of positions of people in “product” that are making more noise than value, but what do you say to those individuals trying to get a job in product by way of those “wasted” titles. Everyone is just trying to be a part of the evolution, instead of pursuing the selective fraternity.
At 43:16 who is Christian that they both talk about?
th-cam.com/video/SXYc5RoU3Lg/w-d-xo.html
I know it is a lot easier to run a boat of 1 skipper and 2 competent crew rather than a boat of 7.
Great stressing air... For 40 minutes!!!! Nothing particular was shared yet
I use LaTex
Are there any certifications that follow the Empowered Product Team model?
I like old school :)
Wow!!!!
Mark 32:00
This man is really frustrated by this issue. Lenny should sub name this episode LAMENTATIONS 😤😅
#MartyGPT
Sounds like a commercial for his book
Agree. And not in a positive way but with over-salted criticism. I will listen for the second time to grasp the ideas better rather than the stile of spitting venom in the hope of winning customers and persuading.
Sounds like you are just warming up to his concepts. Read the other two books. He talks about the same stuff. I love him for being factual.
helpful tips: so called "product team" can just low-level feature team; those fancy agile coach could be useless and cause waste;
I don't like his angry narrative although he is speaking some truth.
I guess when he speaks about outcomes he speaks about metric measured outcomes(results), its not 100% clear what exactly he means, Marty is criticizing but he is not precise
Hernandez Michelle Williams Paul Martinez Amy
Product Ops being responsible for educating PMs instead of the Product Leaders is just an heresy and a huge waste of money.
Wtf is Product ops anyway..
agile coaches, yes. worked with them before, they're fking overpaid clowns disrupting actual delivery work
Meh this is a bunch of nothing