After listening through 50 mins about what is not, what is not, what is not, things start to click for me: It is more than delivery; it is more than optimization! It is about leading new value. (discover, shape, and bet new value through product offering). To the nutshell, Product Team (2.0) = Innovation + Product Team
I wished they go through an actual example for Top Down vs Product leaders doing product strategy. The challenge I see at times is when finding the sweet spot of what is a bet that leaders can hand down to product teams vs what is handing down a roadmap. Without finding that sweet spot, we get to confusing situations like when you disagree with leaders (see comment from @orgrinberg7977). This is maybe because of inconsistent language, they are confused on what is "features" to hand down vs "bets" to hand down. I haven't read the new book, so hopefully there are more details there.
In my opinion, the product needs a pilot, to drive it. It can be the PM , it can be the vp and sometimes it is the ceo itself. Who holds the stratigic plan in his hands ? The PM needs to be clever to do the work, at the level he can.
As a PM for the last 6 years - Marty is 100% correct BUT when you have A set of managers and a board of directors, you are sometimes bound to deliver features you don't believe in. and if you disagree with them, you will quickly find yourself unemployed.
Same Shit happened in my life. My boss was female and only one year older than me. She hired me because I can support her in a sense of sympathy. I tried my best but couldn't sustain until the MAU dropped to 1/3 and told her the bad truth. And now she tells me to leave the commpany.
As a beginner explorer of this field feeling so fortunate to have the right definition of the role and everything around it from the best himself. Such a refreshing episode, thanks Marty AND Lenny for making this happen!
The clarifications in this interview were refreshing, particularly when Marty defined empowered teams: Product Leaders provide the bets and Product Teams provide the solutions. So powerful. And wow Lenny, nice to know that your interviewees find your podcast as interesting as the rest of us! Way to go sir!
I feel there is so much to what Marty is saying about really good people, "in Earnest" trying to do the right thing. "The willing worker" as deming used to say. There's so much to being lucky, to being fortunate enough to have the right exposure to truly Customer focused ways of working. Lots of noise to find healthy ways of working, i really care about the outcomes of teams and solving problems. The world is a better place for myself, my kids, my friends and it's sustainable all around. There's an og by the name of deming that focused on product experimentation almost 70 years ago. He was part of a group that transformed Japan in ww2. At the end of the day all the learnings and practices fell to "the prevailing system of management". Had gm and Ford not been bailed out by us government, theater may not be a description of modern knowledge work
Listening to Marty always always takes you back to the foundational of Product. It is like a lemonade on a summer day. Refreshing! Thanks Lenny, you are the best as always.
And then the problems are being turned into features to deliver the outcomes.... and now ...they are feature teams that ... solved the problem and are working to deliver the outcome ... Oh the wordplay is wonderful!
i have the same belief, the fact that the material and courses out in market is already spoiling our next generation which is a fact, i am going to contribute from my side on whatever i can, thank you @lenny for this one.
For the most part I agree with Marty and love the candid perspective. I wonder if he has noticed something I have (15+ years), which is that many members of the executive management around product today are $$ people, i.e., lots of MBAs, many of whom have never worked in product at the hands-on level but are now SVPs of product or CPOs. The directives that come from these guys with an "or else" attached have changed the expectations of what the role is all about. It becomes a bit of a culture clash, no?
Really good vision of the state of product in 2024 One problem I have seen with empowered product teams vs. Feature teams : it’s too vague for executives. Telling them “we’ll improve the product and fix problems” against a feature that sales say could bring X in revenue. One seems concrete and brings B2B revenue, the other one seems more uncertain
Great interview, from my experinece I can share that even when company wants to switch to product way , work on outcomes, not on outputs, company fails because accounting, board is not outcome driven. It is much easier for board and accouting to use feature factories, project approach for planning budget. So even when company experiments with empowerd product team at the end Product Manager is asked for road map of items and time table "you know, just for accounting, to get founding" and thats spoils whol way of working
What are the best strategies to protect my portfolio? I've heard that a downturn will devastate the financial market, so I'm concerned about my $200k stock portfolio.
There are strategies that could be put in place for solid gains regardless of economy situation, but such execution is usually carried out by an investment specialist
I've been in touch with a financial analyst ever since I started investing. Knowing today's culture The challenge is knowing when to purchase or sell when investing in trending stocks, which is pretty simple. On my portfolio, which has grown over $900k in a little over a year, my adviser chooses entry and exit orders
My CFA NICOLE ANASTASIA PLUMLEE a renowned figure in her line of work. I recommend researching her credentials further... She has many years of experience and is a valuable resource for anyone looking to navigate the financial market.. .
Thank you for saving me hours of back and forth investigation into the markets. I simply copied and pasted her full name into my browser, and her website came up first in search results. She looks flawless..
Good interview. Here's my thoughts on 2 reasons: 1. PMs are afraid to lose a job & become order-takers instead of boiling the ocean. 2. Today, PMs who boil the ocean and do the right thing are nixed because "leadership" (layers of them) likes status quo (easy paycheck).
Many times the reason why they have so many project managers or product managers who do project management is they think the engineers can't be trusted to do the work on their own. They think they need some sort of authority figure over them to manage them.
If 90% of the market does not truly operate in “product mode”, it will be extremely difficult for most people to break out of this trap. The market in general is bad, companies in general are bad, and people don't have much choice.
As someone who's an aspiring Product Manager super helpful to learn what Product Management ISN'T as well as what it IS! Rivian is my dream vehicle. Thanks for the great Podcast!
I've been rewatching this for a few times now, I'm a recent grad and been eyeing on product roles. I dont seem to understand most of whats going on aside from product roles not being defined well by companies, inconsistencies with actual PM practice
I would love for him to dive deep into why feature teams form. I think the real reason of why we have roles like PO and “Product Assistants” is because leadership fails at strategy and outlining those bets to go after and it results in lack of focus (build all the things), which then results in feature teams. At least that’s how I see it.
Feature teams is very close to a relic of "fixed skill set bank accounts to deposit from when needed". Also known as "resources". Which traces back to the first modern innovation, assembly line, economies of scale, fordism, taylorism. Not new things, just self-propagating and hand me down leadership and product playbooks.
7:41 Lenny’s try to hold the onair face tight when Marty said he’s a paid subscriber 😂 11:57 Marty giving a reality check to all companies who’s polishing their ideas kn this podcast 😂😂
The reality with many good cultures is that the product team is given a mix of "time to money" problems and "time to market" requirements to drive. In that very common scenario it is up to Product to find the optimal balance.
I hope this episode serves as an awakening call to all the founders and product leaders who say we can’t do things this way. Truly valuable lesson here.
Agree with everything said here. Crazy thing is the number of companies still hiring specifically for product ownership or product operations and insisting on SAFe certification. You can understand the difference between adding value and just going through the motions, but if the company that's hiring you doesn't then you're stuck competing with all of the feature team people.
Pros: PMs will deliver value if they are given the right tools (data, team, and clear vision) Cons: If they go against management, even while supported by data, they could lose their jobs. Conclusion: Many PMs I know are frustrated because they want to offer more and provide value to their organizations. However, they are limited by management's objectives, which leads them to be feature-driven instead of championing a solution(s). I think picking a great company at the right stage has more influence to become a great PM.
Notes: Outcome over outputs. Value and viability. Creator and not facilitator. Expert on users, customers and Data. Deal with all issues. Deep understanding of market. PM vs FTPM.
A product manager is a creator focused on value (to the customer) and viability (to the business). A product manager should be an: Expert on users and customers Expert on data Expert on sales, data, monetisation etc
The most valuable part for me as someone trying to become a GREAT product manager.
2 หลายเดือนก่อน
Hey Lenny, this episode is a must watch. Maybe because of lack of examples but I am still confuse about when you say CEOs, Product Leaders come up with the bets? What does this really mean, the bets? When talking about GenAI, in fact in ChatGPT and the PM skills, PM should have, but also digital people, is basic and "antique", logical thinking.
People reacting on this podcast will either get fired or have been fired from their product management role, but they will apply these principles in their own start up as a founder and will make it a unicorn for sure.
I like the part that Marty Cagan says that "We want people that genually care about our customers and about business and making lives better for them". If I had a cent for every time I said this, I wouldn't be watching this video now... I think there's a values crisis, (some/most??) people just don't care... Not talking specifically about product, but in general... its frustrating.
The problem of marty with POs stems from the same one he claims people have with PMs - he talked to bad POs who are really only backlog managers. A real PO is exactly what he claims a PM is - someone who is accountable for value and viability. For larger organizations I agree a team needs a PM as Marty describes, as the PO is much more akin to a CEO - prioritization on larger scale and strategic scope. But Scrum is defined for a one team (4-9 people). There, the PO and the PM is indeed typically one role, as you don't really need two people doing these activities full time in such a small scale. If you look at scaled scrum frameworks, they typically have a completely different definition of a PO - the scale changes the work. They will not assign a PO per team - then it's no longer Scrum. When you do that, you get the types of POs Marty is justifiably complaining about.
Roles like associate/assistant product managers are one of the only ways someone can transition to product management. Most of the roles want 3+ years of experience.
Great interview! One criticism I've always had for Marty is that he argues that PMs should always do what the best companies do. I don't disagree, I work in a product led company. But I'd love to see some first principles thinking or, even better, empirical support for this approach. I wonder whether feature factories exist because the business model doesn't have the margin or opportunity to see substantial return from this approach or if they just have people who are incapable of doing this (I've definitely seen the latter)
Given my background studies in enteprises at scale: "feature factory" or "sales led" orgs have one common problem statement: weak Marketing culture (push culture or bad understanding of market research and reuse) - That's why the industrial design parallel is relevant. The fact that a lot of money was thrown at "innovation" without validating a market need did not help. Herd mentality to have/want the latest feature isn't helping either. Some technologies may have been premature on the market. Also airbnb example- as much as airbnb is cool i wonder if Lenny would confirm if airbnb would have taken off for re-use of existing spaces if the morgage/2008 recession would not have forced people to find alternative revenues. Not fair to attribute success without the market conditions at the time. Here's the marketing history evolution which did not catch on at scale as a competency for a wider org instead of an "industrial age functional department" or people don't know its history to see how they are repeating old mistakes (reinventing the wheel - engineering or sales teams tend to lack this knowhow, sales may be just chasing quota, the conflict between sales and marketing is known and old in most orgs - outside the tech bubble) fullscale.io/blog/the-evolution-of-marketing/
I was laughing so hard. I love his strong language. Meanwhile I think it’s a losing battle. It’s human nature to be lazy to think and to criticize. Very few can do that.
How about this one: a SAFe RTE + program manager for just three teams? Plus a whole bunch of BAs, a scrum master, POs, a product manager, and an executive over those. The benefit of this arrangement was that most people didn't have to work more than 2 hours a day :)
If the C-suite would’ve asked our department to jump my product leader would’ve said how high meanwhile jumping and that was the major learning I’ve found, when I’ve implemented pm practices then they found a way to make sure I will move on and I did and that worked out for the better.
Disparaging remote work at this time is akin to condemning the utility of the first automobiles because of cobblestone roads. I'll wait for the sociology research to catch up.
I've seen product managers at companies trying their level best to actually innovate and upper management freaknig out and steering them towards good becoming feature teams. During mass layoffs who do you think got fired? The product manager.
Marty Cagan - We need to differentiate to a new designation. “Product Manager” to “Product something”. There is no way to police this, but highlight the outcome owners better
Great podcast Lenny and Marty. One question that was not clear the ways to upskill PM. It was mentioned 90% of the online content is not right but then how to get that 10% and how to verify if it is right ???
In my opinion, the product needs a pilot, to drive it. It can be the PM , it can be the vp and sometimes it is the ceo itself. Who holds the stratigic plan in his hands ? The PM needs to be clever to do the work, at the level he can.
What is that Data Management Systems book in Marty's bookshelf at 7:37? It s the leftmost book in the lower shelf. Google does't seem to bring up that book by title.
I just asked Mary about this, here's his answer 🤯 -- That is actually the very first book published on database management systems, and the author was none other than my father, Carl Cagan. Published in 1973 by John Wiley & Sons He was also the first Computer Science PhD in the US.
I agree there’s a waste of positions of people in “product” that are making more noise than value, but what do you say to those individuals trying to get a job in product by way of those “wasted” titles. Everyone is just trying to be a part of the evolution, instead of pursuing the selective fraternity.
Agree. And not in a positive way but with over-salted criticism. I will listen for the second time to grasp the ideas better rather than the stile of spitting venom in the hope of winning customers and persuading.
I guess when he speaks about outcomes he speaks about metric measured outcomes(results), its not 100% clear what exactly he means, Marty is criticizing but he is not precise
Literally drowning in the word salads and platitudes of the PM world. Why is feature work considered so horrible, anyway? Features can totally lead to great outcomes! The PM role is just f'ed up. Even Marty is here to sell his own branded paradigm and throw shade on the 90% of content out there from all the other PM communities. And there are many PM communities out there now. I don't know what good splitting hairs like this does for anyone, do you? Maybe the so called empowered PM role should go away. Be a founder or executive if you want to be empowered. How many strategists are needed, really? PMs build compelling products (which contain features) as best they can with all the tools at their disposal based on the outcomes sought by the company. Fin.
After listening through 50 mins about what is not, what is not, what is not, things start to click for me:
It is more than delivery; it is more than optimization!
It is about leading new value. (discover, shape, and bet new value through product offering).
To the nutshell, Product Team (2.0) = Innovation + Product Team
Marty Cagan is sometimes too theoretical but I appreciate how Lenny pushes for practical advice.
I wished they go through an actual example for Top Down vs Product leaders doing product strategy. The challenge I see at times is when finding the sweet spot of what is a bet that leaders can hand down to product teams vs what is handing down a roadmap. Without finding that sweet spot, we get to confusing situations like when you disagree with leaders (see comment from @orgrinberg7977). This is maybe because of inconsistent language, they are confused on what is "features" to hand down vs "bets" to hand down. I haven't read the new book, so hopefully there are more details there.
In my opinion, the product needs a pilot, to drive it. It can be the PM , it can be the vp and sometimes it is the ceo itself. Who holds the stratigic plan in his hands ? The PM needs to be clever to do the work, at the level he can.
As a PM for the last 6 years - Marty is 100% correct BUT when you have A set of managers and a board of directors, you are sometimes bound to deliver features you don't believe in. and if you disagree with them, you will quickly find yourself unemployed.
This right here. i have just been fired for that exact reason.
Hi, could you please guide me that how did you get into PM? Thanks in advance
@@RishabhDeora started as a Tech support and CRM specialist in a company i worked for and busted my ass off to get a chance , and luckily i did.
Same Shit happened in my life. My boss was female and only one year older than me. She hired me because I can support her in a sense of sympathy.
I tried my best but couldn't sustain until the MAU dropped to 1/3 and told her the bad truth.
And now she tells me to leave the commpany.
@@jypaik2000 that's horrible man, but you deserve better, so F**K that place.
As a beginner explorer of this field feeling so fortunate to have the right definition of the role and everything around it from the best himself. Such a refreshing episode, thanks Marty AND Lenny for making this happen!
This podcast is amazing and eye opener to lot of people who just dont understand the product and project management. Thank you Lenny & Marty
The clarifications in this interview were refreshing, particularly when Marty defined empowered teams: Product Leaders provide the bets and Product Teams provide the solutions. So powerful. And wow Lenny, nice to know that your interviewees find your podcast as interesting as the rest of us! Way to go sir!
I did not get this part :(. Any good examples?
I feel there is so much to what Marty is saying about really good people, "in Earnest" trying to do the right thing. "The willing worker" as deming used to say.
There's so much to being lucky, to being fortunate enough to have the right exposure to truly Customer focused ways of working. Lots of noise to find healthy ways of working,
i really care about the outcomes of teams and solving problems. The world is a better place for myself, my kids, my friends and it's sustainable all around.
There's an og by the name of deming that focused on product experimentation almost 70 years ago. He was part of a group that transformed Japan in ww2. At the end of the day all the learnings and practices fell to "the prevailing system of management". Had gm and Ford not been bailed out by us government, theater may not be a description of modern knowledge work
Listening to Marty always always takes you back to the foundational of Product. It is like a lemonade on a summer day. Refreshing! Thanks Lenny, you are the best as always.
And then the problems are being turned into features to deliver the outcomes.... and now ...they are feature teams that ... solved the problem and are working to deliver the outcome ... Oh the wordplay is wonderful!
i have the same belief, the fact that the material and courses out in market is already spoiling our next generation which is a fact, i am going to contribute from my side on whatever i can, thank you @lenny for this one.
Interviews with Marty are the ones I click "like" button first and then start watching. Thank you, Lenny! Thank you, Marty!
Same ❤
Ditto!
Me too
For the most part I agree with Marty and love the candid perspective. I wonder if he has noticed something I have (15+ years), which is that many members of the executive management around product today are $$ people, i.e., lots of MBAs, many of whom have never worked in product at the hands-on level but are now SVPs of product or CPOs. The directives that come from these guys with an "or else" attached have changed the expectations of what the role is all about. It becomes a bit of a culture clash, no?
Really good vision of the state of product in 2024
One problem I have seen with empowered product teams vs. Feature teams : it’s too vague for executives. Telling them “we’ll improve the product and fix problems” against a feature that sales say could bring X in revenue.
One seems concrete and brings B2B revenue, the other one seems more uncertain
Great interview, from my experinece I can share that even when company wants to switch to product way , work on outcomes, not on outputs, company fails because accounting, board is not outcome driven. It is much easier for board and accouting to use feature factories, project approach for planning budget. So even when company experiments with empowerd product team at the end Product Manager is asked for road map of items and time table "you know, just for accounting, to get founding" and thats spoils whol way of working
What are the best strategies to protect my portfolio? I've heard that a downturn will devastate the financial market, so I'm concerned about my $200k stock portfolio.
There are strategies that could be put in place for solid gains regardless of economy situation, but such execution is usually carried out by an investment specialist
I've been in touch with a financial analyst ever since I started investing. Knowing today's culture The challenge is knowing when to purchase or sell when investing in trending stocks, which is pretty simple. On my portfolio, which has grown over $900k in a little over a year, my adviser chooses entry and exit orders
Mind if I ask you to recommend this particular coach you using their service? Seems you've figured it all out.
My CFA NICOLE ANASTASIA PLUMLEE a renowned figure in her line of work. I recommend researching her credentials further... She has many years of experience and is a valuable resource for anyone looking to navigate the financial market..
.
Thank you for saving me hours of back and forth investigation into the markets. I simply copied and pasted her full name into my browser, and her website came up first in search results. She looks flawless..
Good interview. Here's my thoughts on 2 reasons:
1. PMs are afraid to lose a job & become order-takers instead of boiling the ocean.
2. Today, PMs who boil the ocean and do the right thing are nixed because "leadership" (layers of them) likes status quo (easy paycheck).
Many times the reason why they have so many project managers or product managers who do project management is they think the engineers can't be trusted to do the work on their own. They think they need some sort of authority figure over them to manage them.
If 90% of the market does not truly operate in “product mode”, it will be extremely difficult for most people to break out of this trap. The market in general is bad, companies in general are bad, and people don't have much choice.
As someone who's an aspiring Product Manager super helpful to learn what Product Management ISN'T as well as what it IS! Rivian is my dream vehicle. Thanks for the great Podcast!
I've been rewatching this for a few times now, I'm a recent grad and been eyeing on product roles. I dont seem to understand most of whats going on aside from product roles not being defined well by companies, inconsistencies with actual PM practice
I would love for him to dive deep into why feature teams form. I think the real reason of why we have roles like PO and “Product Assistants” is because leadership fails at strategy and outlining those bets to go after and it results in lack of focus (build all the things), which then results in feature teams. At least that’s how I see it.
Feature teams is very close to a relic of "fixed skill set bank accounts to deposit from when needed". Also known as "resources". Which traces back to the first modern innovation, assembly line, economies of scale, fordism, taylorism.
Not new things, just self-propagating and hand me down leadership and product playbooks.
That is an excellent insight. Thanks for sharing 👍
7:41 Lenny’s try to hold the onair face tight when Marty said he’s a paid subscriber 😂
11:57 Marty giving a reality check to all companies who’s polishing their ideas kn this podcast 😂😂
Am i the only one snooping around Marty's book shelf? 😂
The reality with many good cultures is that the product team is given a mix of "time to money" problems and "time to market" requirements to drive. In that very common scenario it is up to Product to find the optimal balance.
I hope this episode serves as an awakening call to all the founders and product leaders who say we can’t do things this way.
Truly valuable lesson here.
Marty is an OG in product thought and I'm so glad we got another round of this
Fastest click to watch ever, love Marty Cagan.
Lol same
Agree with everything said here. Crazy thing is the number of companies still hiring specifically for product ownership or product operations and insisting on SAFe certification. You can understand the difference between adding value and just going through the motions, but if the company that's hiring you doesn't then you're stuck competing with all of the feature team people.
Pros: PMs will deliver value if they are given the right tools (data, team, and clear vision)
Cons: If they go against management, even while supported by data, they could lose their jobs.
Conclusion: Many PMs I know are frustrated because they want to offer more and provide value to their organizations. However, they are limited by management's objectives, which leads them to be feature-driven instead of championing a solution(s). I think picking a great company at the right stage has more influence to become a great PM.
Notes:
Outcome over outputs.
Value and viability.
Creator and not facilitator.
Expert on users, customers and Data.
Deal with all issues.
Deep understanding of market.
PM vs FTPM.
A product manager is a creator focused on value (to the customer) and viability (to the business).
A product manager should be an:
Expert on users and customers
Expert on data
Expert on sales, data, monetisation etc
The most valuable part for me as someone trying to become a GREAT product manager.
Hey Lenny, this episode is a must watch. Maybe because of lack of examples but I am still confuse about when you say CEOs, Product Leaders come up with the bets? What does this really mean, the bets?
When talking about GenAI, in fact in ChatGPT and the PM skills, PM should have, but also digital people, is basic and "antique", logical thinking.
People reacting on this podcast will either get fired or have been fired from their product management role, but they will apply these principles in their own start up as a founder and will make it a unicorn for sure.
I like the part that Marty Cagan says that "We want people that genually care about our customers and about business and making lives better for them".
If I had a cent for every time I said this, I wouldn't be watching this video now...
I think there's a values crisis, (some/most??) people just don't care...
Not talking specifically about product, but in general... its frustrating.
I work in a company with feature teams and is exactly how Marty describes it.
The problem of marty with POs stems from the same one he claims people have with PMs - he talked to bad POs who are really only backlog managers. A real PO is exactly what he claims a PM is - someone who is accountable for value and viability.
For larger organizations I agree a team needs a PM as Marty describes, as the PO is much more akin to a CEO - prioritization on larger scale and strategic scope. But Scrum is defined for a one team (4-9 people). There, the PO and the PM is indeed typically one role, as you don't really need two people doing these activities full time in such a small scale.
If you look at scaled scrum frameworks, they typically have a completely different definition of a PO - the scale changes the work. They will not assign a PO per team - then it's no longer Scrum. When you do that, you get the types of POs Marty is justifiably complaining about.
Roles like associate/assistant product managers are one of the only ways someone can transition to product management. Most of the roles want 3+ years of experience.
Great interview! One criticism I've always had for Marty is that he argues that PMs should always do what the best companies do. I don't disagree, I work in a product led company.
But I'd love to see some first principles thinking or, even better, empirical support for this approach. I wonder whether feature factories exist because the business model doesn't have the margin or opportunity to see substantial return from this approach or if they just have people who are incapable of doing this (I've definitely seen the latter)
Given my background studies in enteprises at scale: "feature factory" or "sales led" orgs have one common problem statement: weak Marketing culture (push culture or bad understanding of market research and reuse) - That's why the industrial design parallel is relevant. The fact that a lot of money was thrown at "innovation" without validating a market need did not help. Herd mentality to have/want the latest feature isn't helping either. Some technologies may have been premature on the market. Also airbnb example- as much as airbnb is cool i wonder if Lenny would confirm if airbnb would have taken off for re-use of existing spaces if the morgage/2008 recession would not have forced people to find alternative revenues. Not fair to attribute success without the market conditions at the time.
Here's the marketing history evolution which did not catch on at scale as a competency for a wider org instead of an "industrial age functional department" or people don't know its history to see how they are repeating old mistakes (reinventing the wheel - engineering or sales teams tend to lack this knowhow, sales may be just chasing quota, the conflict between sales and marketing is known and old in most orgs - outside the tech bubble)
fullscale.io/blog/the-evolution-of-marketing/
I was laughing so hard. I love his strong language. Meanwhile I think it’s a losing battle. It’s human nature to be lazy to think and to criticize. Very few can do that.
Best Book, Best Podcast, Best Interview but why only 100k views? - Product Manager from Korea
Loved this podcast… have been following Marty for many years
Really good one, thanks Lenny and Marty, one of the best podcasts!
How about this one: a SAFe RTE + program manager for just three teams? Plus a whole bunch of BAs, a scrum master, POs, a product manager, and an executive over those. The benefit of this arrangement was that most people didn't have to work more than 2 hours a day :)
This was great. Will be sharing this widely!
Great podcast!!! Great guest!!! Super valuable information!!!
two legends get together.
Dear Lenny, where is the information mentioned in podcast?!!! It is a such a useful feature!
100 percent correct.
Lots of respect to you sir marty.
And very good video .
If the C-suite would’ve asked our department to jump my product leader would’ve said how high meanwhile jumping and that was the major learning I’ve found, when I’ve implemented pm practices then they found a way to make sure I will move on and I did and that worked out for the better.
Disparaging remote work at this time is akin to condemning the utility of the first automobiles because of cobblestone roads. I'll wait for the sociology research to catch up.
I've seen product managers at companies trying their level best to actually innovate and upper management freaknig out and steering them towards good becoming feature teams. During mass layoffs who do you think got fired? The product manager.
I'd say that for most of us, the product operating model and principles are actually the exception, not the rule :)
Juat finished Inspired, by Marty. What a treat! Thanks again Lenny, keep the pace going! ❤
Received the book last Monday 4th in Europe. I highly recommend getting the book Transformed (and the other 2 to complete the trilogy of PM) 😊
Marty Cagan is dope.💪
Marty Cagan - We need to differentiate to a new designation. “Product Manager” to “Product something”.
There is no way to police this, but highlight the outcome owners better
Great podcast Lenny and Marty.
One question that was not clear the ways to upskill PM. It was mentioned 90% of the online content is not right but then how to get that 10% and how to verify if it is right ???
Read his books
Good talk - thank you both.
In my opinion, the product needs a pilot, to drive it. It can be the PM , it can be the vp and sometimes it is the ceo itself. Who holds the stratigic plan in his hands ? The PM needs to be clever to do the work, at the level he can.
I am with Marty Cagan....
I watched this and I am having an identity crisis. Someone please share one of those product theatrics podcasts that Marty talks about.
Why does he say that having a product manager and a product owner is an anti-pattern? Can anyone share resources on that?
Finally someone told the truth))
A Rivian! And 2 BMW motorcycles! Wow! 😲 Tell me what your Product Leader drives and I'll tell you who you are! 😄👏
This is gold
Hey Marty! Great interview!
Two of my faves!
Is there a way to like this video multiple times 😊
🤣🧡
What is that Data Management Systems book in Marty's bookshelf at 7:37? It s the leftmost book in the lower shelf. Google does't seem to bring up that book by title.
I just asked Mary about this, here's his answer 🤯
--
That is actually the very first book published on database management systems, and the author was none other than my father, Carl Cagan.
Published in 1973 by John Wiley & Sons
He was also the first Computer Science PhD in the US.
Wow! Thanks for finding that out Lenny!
Great stuff here
Great interview❤
What article is the one he mentions around minute 32 that made the rounds?
My version is "How do I know what I think until I see what I say?" 🙂
Whats the car rental startup that Marty mentioned in the lightening round?
I know it is a lot easier to run a boat of 1 skipper and 2 competent crew rather than a boat of 7.
Who was the guest Lenny and Marty spoke about with respect to Product Ops? At 1:14:23
These two: th-cam.com/video/9VdixM9KPN4/w-d-xo.html, th-cam.com/video/tGS-NhxrN_Q/w-d-xo.html
I agree there’s a waste of positions of people in “product” that are making more noise than value, but what do you say to those individuals trying to get a job in product by way of those “wasted” titles. Everyone is just trying to be a part of the evolution, instead of pursuing the selective fraternity.
So, if most PM advice is wrong, then most of the advice on Lenny's Podcast is wrong too, according to Marty Cagan.
Great stressing air... For 40 minutes!!!! Nothing particular was shared yet
kindda not liking the number of Ads at the beginning
Wow!!!!
I like old school :)
I use LaTex
Does someone recognize the book that has build on the name?
Tony Fadell, Build
Tony Fadell, Build
Thank you
This man is really frustrated by this issue. Lenny should sub name this episode LAMENTATIONS 😤😅
Product Ops being responsible for educating PMs instead of the Product Leaders is just an heresy and a huge waste of money.
Wtf is Product ops anyway..
At 43:16 who is Christian that they both talk about?
th-cam.com/video/SXYc5RoU3Lg/w-d-xo.html
I don't like his angry narrative although he is speaking some truth.
Mark 32:00
helpful tips: so called "product team" can just low-level feature team; those fancy agile coach could be useless and cause waste;
Sounds like a commercial for his book
Agree. And not in a positive way but with over-salted criticism. I will listen for the second time to grasp the ideas better rather than the stile of spitting venom in the hope of winning customers and persuading.
Sounds like you are just warming up to his concepts. Read the other two books. He talks about the same stuff. I love him for being factual.
Are there any certifications that follow the Empowered Product Team model?
#MartyGPT
Hernandez Michelle Williams Paul Martinez Amy
I guess when he speaks about outcomes he speaks about metric measured outcomes(results), its not 100% clear what exactly he means, Marty is criticizing but he is not precise
agile coaches, yes. worked with them before, they're fking overpaid clowns disrupting actual delivery work
Meh this is a bunch of nothing
Literally drowning in the word salads and platitudes of the PM world. Why is feature work considered so horrible, anyway? Features can totally lead to great outcomes! The PM role is just f'ed up. Even Marty is here to sell his own branded paradigm and throw shade on the 90% of content out there from all the other PM communities. And there are many PM communities out there now. I don't know what good splitting hairs like this does for anyone, do you? Maybe the so called empowered PM role should go away. Be a founder or executive if you want to be empowered. How many strategists are needed, really? PMs build compelling products (which contain features) as best they can with all the tools at their disposal based on the outcomes sought by the company. Fin.