I feel like tropes on booktok are super great for quick 15-30 second reviews, but not the only thing you should be caring about when looking for a new book to read
I actually love to discover romance books based on the tropes. I read mainly fantasy - from epic political drama to the cutest romance. Before I pick up a book, I never care what it is about. It can have really nice cover, or that I heard it’s one of the best fantasy series. I never read the synopsis. I watch a lot of TH-cam content to know who I should trust and just dive in knowing basically nothing of what to expect. But I am very picky when it comes to romantasy. I know I don’t need the most epic battles because I get them in adult fantasy. I just want mainly the romance with cringe banter and the angst etc. And it’s very easy to find those kind of books based on the tropes rather than synopsis. I once picked up a book based on one quote. And I loved that book.
i don't like books being advertised with tropes, it ruins the whole discovery process, i wanna read and stumble upon a trope and then decide if it's being used correctly. am i alone in this?
Yess I said the exact same thing. Ppl advertise books the same way they would movies. They are just upfront with everything and tell instead of show. It rly takes the fun out of discovery and finding something unique like what you said.
The worst part about the proliferation of tropes as a form of advertising is that summaries have gotten significantly worse. Okay i know it’s enemies to lovers but what else happens
Even worse when the tropes mentioned are legitimately not in the book. The number of times I have seen 'enemies/rivals to lovers' and they were straight up not enemies or rivals....
@@alulea__ Disagreeing with someone for three pages or being of unsure of them because they're a new character being introduced to the protagonist for the first time does not constitute ETL. I don't know why it's portrayed as such. My guess, is that it's a marketing strategy to grab the attention of an established base of readers who enjoy that trope, or, they do not fully understand it (this could apply to any trope, really).
And I think the problem is that before the proliferation of tropes, summaries were still often kind of bad... Like, I think even before not enough attention was given toward distilling a story into a few paragraphs. Now, even less attention is given because slapping in the tropes is deemed good enough.
this is my gripe as well. It works in fanfiction because you usually look for fics of specific characters, so you already know the characters and you just want to know the setting or a couple references of what's gonna happen with them, but for actual books that are supposed to stand on their own that obviously have new characters and new plots it's just not enough as a summary. I really dislike this kind of advertising on insta for example where there's a picture of a book and then just a couple tropes around it like "enemies to lovers", "found family", "heist" and... yes, I usually like those things but only if they work within the context of the story, so please give me an overview of the story?
Ok, yes, that's annoying af, but I raise you: Books that don't have summaries or tropes at all, but only blurbs from newspapers about how groundbreaking of a debut it is.
People are talking a lot about trope advertising, but the worst form of advertising for me is when books LIE about “if you liked [super popular book] then you’ll love this one!” And the two books are nothing alike
i hate this!! or it's like " ___ meets ___ in this new, enthralling tale" or something and it turns out to be a 2-star read so different from the books it was compared to. similar to tropes, they're just baiting readers fr
Any YA Book with Fantasy Elements: "If you like Harry Potter!" Any YA books with dystopian: "If you like Hunger Games!" Any Adult Books with Fantasy Elements: "If you like Game of Thrones!"
It's basically approaching literature with advertising algorithms. Algorithms can't tell what's good or bad writing, they can only tell how many of the same keywords they find in the description of two books.
Just to make clear, enemies to lovers was not meant to be bully and Stockholm syndrome victim. I hate when they marketed bullies as an "enemy" and a "lover". NO! The characters are enemies by confronting circumstances, values, political compass, socioeconomic status, etc, so when the romance happens is because they get pass those two different sides and POVs to find similarities and, of course, attraction and love. An a-h*** is not an "enemy", is just a sociopath, tag it as such.
I'm afraid that bully romance is a sub trope of enemies to lovers. So the category is not wrong. But as someo who hates bully romances I understand your frustration.
I feel the same about tropes as I do about trigger warnings: I want the information to be out there if I go looking for it, but I don't want it to be thrown at me otherwise because, when they go into so much detail, that can be spoiler-y and make the reading experience less interesting
See i feel that way about tropes but trigger warnings i feel should be given without always searching for it (my biggest example being miscarriage and how that can be a very major thing for some people and not knowing that is in a book can hurt. I mainly use miscarriage just because i’ve seen it not have warnings - and how many people have expressed how it hurt them because of what’s going on in their own life, and they would’ve known not to pick that book up if they had that warning. ) but i can totally understand your stance too! -and i don’t mean this to seem mean or anything ! i just love the conversation on whether or not things should be included-
Oooh interesting. I agree with the overuse of tropes but not for trigger warnings, and I think it's down to safe reading experiences. People who want to be surprised by a books content can EASILY skip a trigger warning list in a book, but it's very difficult for someone to unread a *surprise* in a book, such as a graphic rape scene, incest, etc. Tropes are often thrown at you and I think they frequently spoil the book (much like some movie trailers to), but I think trigger warnings are much more subtly given and can easily be avoided by simply skipping the page in a book or scrolling past a section of someone's book recommendation, since these are generally written. I see a lot of video content advertising "fake dating where he needs someone to pretend to be his girlfriend so he can .. *insert huge spoiler*", where it's just given right to you, but I've never seen the same for trigger warnings - usually there's a short list at the end of someone's book recommendation, or just a general preface of "this book is dark, check TWs", where then you can make the choice of whether or not you want to seek out that information). Maybe we just have different reading experiences, but can you talk more about how you feel trigger warnings are thrown at you?
Yes they are so many authors are writing books with no plot and just tropes strung together to appease Booktok and it’s getting harder to find good books in the specific genres I like 🤦🏾♀️
This is sort of my issue. These tropes have seemed to take precedence over actual plot/craft because tropes are the things that sell. And in my personal opinion, that means that a lot of mediocre or really bad books are being published and promoted and highly rated. So I pick one up and I'm...confused and unsatisfied.
I feel similar - it has become so hard to scour through all the books that are recommended, or even just the shelves in the book stores, to find actual good ones that seem worth it. Tropes are great and all, but only if they work within the story and fit and it seems like a lot of authors just try to put as many popular tropes as possible into their books, no matter if they fit the plot or not. I want to read a story, not a trope. So many books where you can just *tell* that the author deliberately and forcibly put a trope in there and it kinda takes me out of it.
I've found that no matter much I pre-plan a story unexpected things happen and force me to change the story. You can't plan on having tropes as they may not jive with the story you end up writing.
I also think there is a difference between novels that just happen to have tropes in them and a book that clearly used tropes as building material. In the first one, the tropes usually fit vaguely if you squint or the trope in question is super broad. In the latter the trope is repeated so specify that you sometimes even get the same wording over and over again.
I realized once, when thinking about tropes I like and tropes I don't, that most of the tropes I loathe to see advertised are tropes that give away the entire plot of the story, because there's fewer ways the story can play out. I mean, when you see "fake dating" on the cover, you already know pretty much every major beat of the story - contrived setup forcing the leads together, forced romantic gestures, the leads develop real feelings, after some third act contrivances they confess their love and ride off into the sunset. I don't despise the concept of fake dating in books, but once I've read one fake dating book, I really feel like I've read them all. Meanwhile, tropes like "morally gray characters" or "forbidden love" bother me a lot less because there's a lot of ways the story can play out. All enemies to lovers books are basically the same, while not all books with morally gray characters are even remotely similar, do you know what I mean?
I thought of this too when in the video she mentioned tropes of fairytales and one of them being „villain tricks the main character“. That could mean so many different things whereas „enemies to lovers“ is usually going to follow the same story beats
this is exactly what i was thinking!!! i enjoy a good enemies to lovers plot line but my favorite thing about it is when i dont expect it, yk? if i already know its "enemies to lovers" it takes away the fun of "ohmygosh they're catching feelings!!!" idk its hard to explain lol
“I think Nature is healing” YES! thank you. I think there are so many talented fanfic writers out there with the potential to become great authors and writing fanfics is a great way for them to experiment and hone their skills.
I've been a fanfic writer for about a decade now and even just in my limited circle of writing friends from two pretty niche fandoms, I have personally known two other fanfic writers who went on to become published authors with their original fiction. This is my ultimate goal as well. I would be nowhere near as good at writing as I am now had I not gotten into fanfiction, and I'm forever grateful for it, despite how "cringe" many people consider the hobby to be. It's a beautiful form of self-expression and I firmly believe much of the demonization of it is rooted in misogyny.
I know that fanfics can't pay the bills but I think fanfics CAN be the work of a great author, not just a stepping stone to become one. I suppose being able to write an original work is really important but expanding on an existing work is a worthy practice of its own imo. But it is hard to find really really good ones.
i always say that if dostoevsky was alive today he'd be on ao3, not publishing on booktok. ao3 has genuine drive and soul. compare that to booktok, the writing is so soulless that i find it insulting
the fanficification of book publishing is actually what this goes back to honestly. same story different characters? same characters different story? tagging specific scenarios and tropes? all there. also literally publishing fanfiction is so big in the last decade too. also been on my mind as i was thinking about old greek stories. like after the illiad there was so much more written about the characters before and after that's essentially fan fiction but because it was so popular it's kind of blended in with the illiad's "canon". think the trojan horse that's not even from the original illiad but from later works taking place after.
The thing with the Illiad is that it was part of the popular mythos, so, even if Homer's version was deemed as the best telling of that story, it probable already existed before he wrote it down. In ancient times author could write the same story in ten different ways because those stories came from the oral tradition and people's folk. The idea of "canon" in that age was unthinkable. And not only in greece, but in other places of the world too. So they weren't really doing fan fiction in our modern way of thinking, they were telling and retelling, expanding ir reducing, stories that didn't come with copyright and were owned by everyone.
Don't forget, the ancient Greeks considered the Trojan war a historical fact, and the popular mythos surrounding it their actual history. In much the same way that Euripedes didn't invent the myth about Helen in Egypt when writing his famous play, Homer almost definitely did not invent the myths he decided to dramatisise. The Iliad only covers a very small part of the Trojan war, from the withdrawal of Achilles from battle to the funeral of Hector. It is not a comprehensive retelling of it all: Homer had a very specific narrative he wanted to convey. I believe the Trojan horse specifically is mentioned in the Odyssey, funnily enough. A lot of the consensus about the general conclusion of the war and what followed stems from Odysseus's retelling of it in Homer's Odyssey.
17:22 Putting Dante when you talk of fanfiction is the most accurate thing ever. The Divine Comedy is the best example of a self-insert to ever exist and I will die on that hill
There is much more to The Divine Comedy than Dante being its main character. The self-insert in fan-fiction serves only one purpose, and that is to allow the writer to fantasise that they are included in their favourite stories. The Divine Comedy does not do that. Otherwise, what favourite fiction is Dante inserting himself into? I can see the temptation to call The Divine Comedy 'self-insert' because the author is the main character -- but no attempt is made to hide that fact, whereas a genuine self-insert is disguised as someone who simply (but unbelievably) belongs in the fictional universe in question. If calling the main character by the writer's name is all it takes to make a work self-insert fan-fiction, then autofiction and autobiographical fiction don't exist as genres.
@@joshuapray ur comment sort of comes off as a "erm ackshually" kind of remark, but u make a good point!! i think people call it a self insert in a way that applies our modern perception of what Dante's work is, even with calling it fanfic bc at the time the term and concept didnt exist, but ure right to point out the subtlety between an actual self insert compared to just inserting oneself directly and blatantly into the work ill keep that in mind when looking at other "fanfics" of the past!! thanks
@@joshuapraybecause dante makes his self insert meet people he looked up to and make them say good things about him. he also put everyone he hated in hell and makes fun of them. it’s a fanfic of the bible with crossover characters of everyone he hates/loves
@@joshuaprayDante made an exploration of something deeply important to him using himself as the protagonist to not also discover it all but receive the praise of the people he looks up to and also condemn to hell the people he hated. That can and I'm sure has been done today with self insert fanfiction, by the fact that we are a shit ton of people in these planet more literate than we were centuries ago. self insert is SUCH a broad genre because it really can be anything as long as the author has inserted themselves in. It can be just a self fulfilment fantasy written with no ambitions beyond that of the author being happy or it can be used as a deep exploration of the thing you're inserting yourself in and then, yourself. So yeah, The Divine Comedy is self insert bible fanfiction, a really good one, but one at the end of the day, and you could only think that is an insult if you believe self insert fanfiction to be a form of inferior literature in the first place.
the problem with "accepting" this tropeification is that authors think they need to write to appeal to it and can only market their book as tropes. the books themselves are losing their plots and the characters their complexity because authors are more focused on the marketing side of things (which is understandable, they're trying to sell their art in a capitalist world), but i really think we should leave "tropes" behind. when it's something niche for the tiktok and ao3 girlies (gn) it's fine, but when it becomes the only marketing strategy the publishers use, i think we need to give it a step in other direction. in conclusion, we need to come back to (re)telling stories because they're compelling, even if they're cliche, and not because the only way to be successful selling your story is through booktok.
Yeah. A good story is more than stacking up nice elements. It has to be created as a whole, even those less than exciting parts help holding it together. You have to write more than a combination of tropes for them to shine, and if you start from the tropes only, you will end up with something less then that.
Plus like, even with AO3 stories that are tagged via tropes, they can still have actual story and plot that uses tropes but is unique and not spoiled by tags. My favorite example is this insanely good fanfic tagged a basically “magical college au mystery.” Which is true! But as the mystery unraveled, they found that they were LITERALLY in an artificially created alternate timeline, because some gods needed time to stop a prophecy so they backed up the clock about 20 years, then slowly discover that their friends ARE the gods that did that and the spell messed up their memories. And they are still college students during this! So TLDR “Tropes limiting your book? Skill issue”
@@gracel2mart that is so true! i totally believe it’s a skill issue as well. cliches and tropes aren’t the problem, but when you think you can put whatever on paper just because it has the tiktok favs… that’s just bad writing
An interesting thing that I’ve noticed about “tropification” is that tropes are usually romantic and commonly only present in plots/sub plots that involve romance. For example, you don’t see tropes in (for example) science fiction books I.e, they’re not condensed to being described and promoted as “sun explodes”, or “alien invasion”, or with thrillers, you don’t see people saying “books with the ‘kidnapping’/‘covering up murder’/‘police chase’ tropes. Because for all these other genres, they’re plot points, not “tropes” used to market them. It’s interesting how tropes seem to be exclusively genre-centric to romance, I’d like to see someone break down how that came to be.
I feel like they show up a lot in fantasy, too: chosen one, wise old mentor, mentor who's actually the villain, mysterious prophecy, long journey, tournament or trials, magic school, killing a god…
@@emilyrln fantasy definitely has a lot of tropes too, but it doesnt seem like anyone talks about those tropes or reduces those stories down to those tropes in the same way they do romance ones. i certainly havent seen people marketing a book as a long journey or chosen one story the same way i have seen them marketing a book as enemy to lovers, yannow?
Another option of recomending books that I LOVE is "oddly specific recomendations" such as "a book to read at 3am with a cup of tea and candlelights" or "childhood feverdream". I guess it's like the aesthetic recommendation but with words kinda.
gosh I can't really get behind these because the definition of the authors who are (usually!!) from first world countries are wildly different from mine! i find it really interesting how cultural differences seep so deep into the fabric of a book
I've been subscribed to your TH-cam channel for a few years now and it is such a full circle moment to see that you referenced my article in your description and video -- the one titled "Are tropes ruining books" from the Michigan Daily. I'm so glad you liked it and thank you for making this video :) time-stamp: 34:01
I’m a teenager writing my first book, and it’s honestly amazing watching your channel to understand the basics of these things so I can think about how my book would be towards people other than me. I’m learning a lot from you! Thanks for teaching me so much
The thing with TikTok books is there's no subtlety with the tropes. It doesn't seem natural anymore because they just tell you that it's "close proximity" or whatever trope and even spoon-feed it to the readers. There are good writers who didn't even know they were creating these tropes in their story and still make it a good story without making the trope the whole story.
My boyfriend writes academic articles about the similarities in ancient Arabic and Greek stories. There is very little written about that, while they are sometimes so alike!
It sounds so interesting! It’s really astonishing how totally different countries are actually connected, for example Turkish book illustrations were pretty much influenced by Chinese art
That is so interesting ! We tend to think ancient humans were isolated, but they were so many contacts, exchanged and influenced between humans groups/ cultures. I studied Greek mythology and religion and we can see the influence of Sumerian religion on it.
both the english major and library sciences in me are thrilled about this video. examining the working processes of narratives to categorize them, but also to understand and appreciate the art and mastery in creating the story itself- UGH i'm losing my mind. i love your video essays. thanks!
That moment when Leonie gives you a new source for your MA thesis on fairy tale adaptations. Thank you! :D This also means that I am counting watching this video as doing research and thus am being productive right now.
37:14 I agree with this idea, I like tropes as a starting point/a short description of the book which lets you decide if you want to look into it more.
Ah, the “who did this to you” combined with the “enemies to lovers” that is like my kryptonite. I will go weak for a well writtten scene with those two components
I once found an existentialist fanfic for Pong. Yes, one of the original video games on the Atari. Existentialist Pong Fanfiction exists and its really really good.
You nailed it at the start- TikTok itself waters down learning. I’m a teacher, and we had a seminar on how to start teaching in rapid 7-second increments because our students are learning in short bursts. Trope-ifying is just an extension of this… “why read an entire synopsis when we can rapidly categorise books?”
If I was told to start teaching in seven second increments, I would quit. Learning can be fun, but it is also supposed to be hard. It can't be fun if there is no challenge in it. Tiktok isn't even fun. It is more like a drug. It provides instant gratification, which triggers pleasure hormones. If a student can't work hard for a long-term goal, teaching that student is a waste of time.
One of the first things I remember learning in creative writing classes was the argument that there are only 2 types of stories: "I am going on a journey" and "A stranger comes to town". The language we use to talk about stories may evolve over time but complete originality seems to be an unfair ask these days where not only have more books "been done" every day, but you also have immediate access to more of them than ever. The good news is that there is room for everything. Some people may get annoyed if whatever is popular is not to their taste or standards, but that doesn't mean whatever you're looking for isn't also out there. Edit: One positive of grouping books by their tropes/vibes is that it may encourage people to branch into a new genre for a trope they love. It's another tool like genre that has its usefulness but shouldn't be the end of the conversation about that book.
There's this tension that exists in all art, between the collective and the individual, which fascinates me. Nothing is truly original, but each person who gets ahold of it adds their own little twist. We have names for different periods and trends in different fields of art, and those periods were made of individuals who then pushed toward the next period. I think the modern concept of copyright removes a lot of nuance from this- I obviously support people getting paid for the creative work they do, but sometimes it gets pushed way too far to where people forget that everything you make is influenced by other stuff. The recent omegaverse lawsuit is a huge example of this!
my take is this; yes it's overused to use tropes as a sort of summary of the book but i feel it's more personal preference to choose books based on tropes or not. My issue actually arises when a book is marketed off a popular trope/ or combination of, but doesn't provide a good story as the background. Yes i do enjoy scratching the itch of a grumpy sunshine or fake dating sometimes but because these are so popular there's so many bland ones to get through. Most recently read powerless which is essentially just a rehash of tons of popular tropes and stories (deathly games, enemies to lovers, main girl is different) but I thought it was enjoyable, while not original. A tempest of tea also had lots of popular genre? tropes i'd say (heist, vampires, love triangle) but felt pretty hollow. So I don't hate the idea of tropes being such a big part of creating/ promoting books but i do fully believe it just creates tons of similar books. And it can be pretty hit or miss with all of these books getting popular.
Yes, ignore TikTok. But do, by all means, get the subscription box that sponsored this video. Because that is not the most ridiculous product for anyone with an honest interest in literature.
@@FOLKEN1979 It seems more focused on recent books, is that right? I just started really getting into reading a year ago and have a backlog of 500 SciFi books to read, alot of old stuff.. Also, do they ship to France?
@@TrynePlague My friend. I was being sarcastic. If you like Science fiction, there is an endless well of information both casual and professional to help you pick and choose the best it has to offer. You don't need absurd products like the one sponsoring this video. Good luck with your research and enjoy your sci-fi.
Easier said than done when books these days are written specifically to appeal to the TikTok crowd. Even if you try you just can't get away from it. And it's also worrying more long term. I shudder to think what this will result in 10-20 years down the line. You can see it in YA's influence on adult books. We now have a generation of young writers who grew up reading little but YA. Most of them think they can just *say* that their character is 20-30 years old, add some sex and swearing and call it an "adult" book. Meanwhile the writing style, approach to themes and characters, depth and the tropes are still immediately recognizable as YA.
@@S_Black Ah, makes sense. That's one of the tags I instinctively avoid on goodreads. Guess the trend will die down some day... and no one is going to remember anything that has been written during that period. I only read SF and mostly from the 30's to 90's so I don't really get the booktok stuff. And I don't want to see for myself neither. That app is pure cancer as is SM culture in general.
I can't believe how lucky I am to be enrolled in the University of Leonie. Seriously. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't, but you always make me think and reevaluate.
If literature is going trope-y, I'd love to hear ideas from people about weird/not done yet tropes! So fun to discover what people would either like OR write a trope book about! ❤❤❤
I think it would be refreshing to see a character begin a story as very outgoing and extroverted, but undergo growth and development to eventually become more introverted and reserved by the story's end. The inverse of this is possibly one of the most overused, and misunderstood, tropes in fiction, so well written subversions of it are hard to come by.
As a newly masters graduate in Art history I really really appreciate your way of academically splitting these things into atoms haha! I really enjoy the “aesthetic” recommendations, but I also often find that i don’t feel the aesthetic I was promised, when I finally read the book. I think that people also fall into aestheticizing the aesthetic for the content, which makes sense bc who would watch the video or read a book if the aesthetic recommendation itself isn’t aesthetic? I find that my best experience is when I take recommendations from pure explained “vibes” and “feelings” and don’t get the visual aesthetic. But this may also be bc I primarily enjoy atmospherical, weird and character driven books, and couldn’t give less fcks about the plot if the above doesn’t hit me haha
My book would have that one "Cannibalism as a metaphor for love" but it sundenlly got SO popular on tiktok, and people started making it look so bad and mediocry that I just discarted the idea, afraid that my reads would go "ewww tiktoker book..."
This is such a thoughtful dive into how books are being marketed today. Thanks for making this vid and I hope you are proud of it bc it must have taken a lot of time!!
First of all; I like your editing, and I subscribed! Found this by chance while watching other booktubers I'm getting into. Your early point around 7:00 is the one I've been thinking about the most. With the rise of self-publishing and this newfound accessibility for indie authors, we're seeing people getting into marketing their own work and doing the same things that big publishers have been doing since forever, warts and all. It's understandable, and not entirely black and white.
It is so funny to see someone make a video essay about stuff that I researched extensively for a university paper last year. Back then, I took a seminar about fanfiction and for my final grade I wrote a paper about fanfic versions of red riding hood and analysed some through a feminist lense. While only little bits of the reading made it into the paper, the whole history of the fairytale categories and also the discussions about fanfiction and the history of "originality" in literature and the concept of authorship/copyright was what I spend most time on. I went deep down thay research rabbit hole and I loved it. (I love that my university is open to topics like that in my German and English literature degree.) Anyway, all that said, great video! I love that you are able to summarise all that in one video that is accessable and understandable for peope outside of academia.
Vladimir Propp!!! Love the analysis of folktales so much I could cry. There’s a point you keep skirting around (maybe unintentionally) that I wish you had addressed- analysing and identifying patterns isn’t inherently saying there’s only value in the shared characteristics. Seeing commonalities in the structure of multiple stories doesn’t mean they’re all the same now (obviously). It’s a valid analytical lens through which to view those tales for compare-and-contrast. I don’t think finding patterns in the way people across nations tell stories takes away from those stories’s uniqueness, it’s just one way to look at them… would love to hear your ideas on this
I don't mind using tropes to discuss books because in my mind, it's like when you're browsing a menu. You might go in thinking "oh I want a romance with a enemies to lovers dynamic" in the same way you open an app for food delivery being like "I want something spicy with chicken". The variations there are far and wide, and most people will do a little more digging (read the description of the book vs picking a type of cuisine) before committing, but having that quick tag of a particular trope you like might be a way for readers to steer towards (or avoid) book recs. The actual experience of reading or eating is going to be so much deeper than just those tags, but those tags are short hand to get us to find the experience we're looking for.
I'm personally more annoyed by using "spicy" as an algorithm safe version of "sexy". I know you're trying to avoid your tiktok getting suppressed, but if you refuse to call sexy scenes sexy, my brain refuses to take you seriously.
@@19Rena96 never said I dislike the person doing it, and I am allowed to be annoyed by whatever annoys me. I'm old and a Tumblr vet where censoring yourself is considered rude bc it gets around blocked tags and terms
@@19Rena96??? Kind of confused by the aggressive tone. Apologies if my opinion offended you? I don't think I'll be interacting with this thread anymore. Be well ✌️
To me tagging (in fanfics and in print original books) is useful for finding work but I usually find things by excluding tags. Like there are things I don't want to read (accidental pregnancy) especially without knowing about it going in and seeing the tropes or tags lets you choose exactly what you want to read.
Her hair!!!! sooo sooo pretty! I love the asthetics it shows how a book will make you feel where its set with music that adds to the asthetic of the book its in my opinion way better than reducing a book down to the 'who did this to you trope'. And maybe this is just me but i don't think i would read a book just becouse it has one scene where a love interest say 'who did this to you' really liked this video :)
My problem with "tropes as ads" is less with them being the focus as much as the implications. If your book is sold as a set of tropes, that's all it will ever be perceived as. There is no chance to be surprised or to be impressed by the story or the writing itself, becuase you already knew - not because of your monkey brain doing pattern recognition but because ads told you - how things will play out. This isn't bad on its own, but it's... just giving up a lot of what makes reading novels engaging. The unique thing about reading a novel as opposed to watching a movie is that's a personal process through which you explore at your own pace a unique "world", a self-contained universe. By skipping this process of exploration what are you obtaining? Just the same, safe, pattern of events which you can consume like popcorn. It's turning the act of reading from this personal experience (regardless of what a book is, it is ultimately a personal experience by definition unless you are reading the same page with another person, and even then you would have to read out loud and stop to analyze every line together) into.... watching a sitcom, waiting for the punchline that you know will be there because it was in the title of the episode. On one hand I can't criticize people from engaging with an hobby as they want. On the other hand, they aren't actually being "free" in doing so. It's a market that has been built to sell mroe and more products, to push the next "big thing" and try to make people buy into something because of ads and FOMO. Booktok isn't "free", and people aren't naturally coming to this tropes-based reading on their own
really enjoyed this video!! connecting that academic rabbit hole to current-day tiktok and ao3 is super interesting! definitely agree that recommending books by tropes has both pros and cons. I haven't seen recommendations based on aesthetics on tiktok as much but I think those are kind of cool, very curious to see if they become more of a thing
The "one word troupe" that I have boycotted is "unputdownable" Seriously?!? The publishing industry is literally a word of words, and THIS is a hot new buzzword? WTF! Do better book industry!
the worst thing about all these tropes is that some people just start writing "enemies to lovers" with just their prior knowledge of the trope and not actually making it work in the context of their story. its practically just writing out a fantasy
Your analysis of how tropes are being overused in social media content is very well researched and presented, it was a pleasure to follow along. I most appreciated your suggestions for alternatives. One of my favorite book related subreddits asks people to essentially recommend books by vibes, to suggest a book that "feels like this." Like you said, it makes the experience of the story the primary drive almost like a visual version of a "Blind Date with a Book".
i really feel like fanfiction and "original" works are fundamentally different ways to approach art and that's where my issue with the tropification of published fiction stems from. fanfiction is about putting the characters you already know in a specific situation. you already know those characters. with og fiction, you don't. and the fact that the authors and fans are both massively focused on the tropes i think is partly what contributes to the shit quality of the writing. the tiktok trope books basically are just the same books over and over and they genuinely just don't even attempt to flesh out characters or a plot or anything because they only care about the tropes. or it's something that is reduced to a single trope when that book has way more to offer.
I could not agree more with the end of the video ! Describing books with our emotions is the most beautiful and effective way to share it and to make people wanna read it. If someone is telling me that a book made them cry, laugh or feel anything, I can assure you I will buy that book without even wanting to know the plot before
I don't think tropes are ruining books on the organic, popular marketing side. That's totally fine and understandable and I argue healthy for romance specifically. the problem is on the writing/publishing side. When authors write shallow tropes just to get picked up because publishers want trendy, then they market based only on the tropes to feed the trend, it floods the market with mediocre stories no one is happy they read. But we can't stop trying new ones anyway 😢
As a published author, answering the question on the title, absolutely yes, tropes are kinda ruining modern literature. Specially in my country, where the majority of synopsis is no longer telling the premise, but describing the main characters in the most ridiculous way (for example, Cassie is an ordinary girl with a mysterious past, Dylan is a hot tough guy with a soft side that only Cassie knows, etc) and listing the tropes chronologically, which gives the impression of lack of effort in the writing, like "you can't think on a fresh premise, so you rely on what others did, huh".
Totally! Like they're just painting by number instead of actually writing genuinely. They just get a checklist of popular tropes, make up a few names, and sloppily string it all together.
The idea that the tropication comes from fanfiction is interesting, but, at the very least, not complete. I've been a self published author since 2010. And very quickly after that, my writing group of successful authors were very focused on tropes, making sure to include them in the titles and call them out in the descriptions. So, the heightened focus on tropes might have arisen at the same time as with fanfiction. But I was one of the ones who helped push it in my writing group and I had no idea what fanfiction was back then. And when I looked for a list of tropes for my books, the list I found online was from TV shows. So, fanfiction didn't invent it or popularize it. It just used tropes like everyone else did as an indexing tool. And now TikTok is doing the same. But that doesn't take anything away from your very interesting and well researched video. I enjoyed it! 😊
You can find so many recurring tropes in the Horror genre, even from decades ago, so i'd definitely agree that Fan Fictions popularized it in other genre but wasn't the cause.
Shoutout to TVTropes. That site is such a good resource for familiarizing yourself with different tropes and how they're used, and even how to subvert them.
Very interesting and in-depth exploration of this topic. I will say that using a moodboard to represent a story is something that was very popular back in the day on tumblr, which is very similar to the aesthetic presentation that you mentioned at the end
i think that tropes kinda ruin the whole reading experience cuz' nowadays it's harder to find books that are unique first of all, and it's harmfull in the sense that writers are more likely to not get into the publishing if their book can't fit well into one or more of the common tropes. Also i just don't like the stuff that most if not every popular trope is coming with, it's not my kind of thing, so i'm way more likely to find nice books for myself that are quite old or just not newly pyblished, which sucks to be honest, i wanna find new interesting books. Also If i'm interested in a book and later on i hear someone discribe it with any of the popular tropes i instantly don't want to read it XD even if it could be actually a good book, and it shouldn't be this way.
Leonie I ATE UP this video omg. I study linguistics with a particular focus on psycholinguistics and you have sparked so many ideas, questions, theories etc. that I can’t wait to explore further. These sorts of videos make me appreciate your book reviews even more than I already did! Also the rip memes had me giggling so that’s a plus too 🤣
my favorite romance novel to this point is The Charm Offensive by Alison Cochran and it's honestly because I went into it not knowing what the tropes would be. I didn't realize the kind of romance would arise or between which characters. I get that tropes help readers get an idea what to expect, but having a surprise to know how relationships develop when entering a story is half the journey itself. spice levels and trigger warnings are great, but just like in real life, I prefer relationships to develop naturally and unexpectedly in books.
I personally dont like it. I wish it had stayed as part of fanfiction. It literally spoils aspects of the relationships and plots are thrown aside to fit into them. I wouldnt even mind as much if the publishing industry wouldnt follow this for most of the recent mainstream realeases, or if said releases werent SO bad. I hate it because now its harder to find a book that has a nice plot instead of feeling like a bunch of tropes combined with no good development.
What an incredible video! The amount of research you did is remarkable. I can't believe I watched a video about tik tok trends that also covered Russian formalists and deconstructist theory, stuff I read for my master's and phd on literature. Amazing work! Also, I love when the light gets a bit darker and the candles behind you get super intense and warm 🥰
as a bookseller, i find tropes rly helpful to a) browse publishing catalogues twice a year (which takes a lot of unpaid time), and b) to recommend books to customers who are either looking for something specific, or don't have a lot of time to browse, or i can only get a quick chat with them due to it being busy and still want to grab their attention to show them a cool book - basically, it's a useful shorthand way of communication, like you said!
Your hair looks so beautiful!!!! Omg I missed watching your videos and loved to hear you again, I've been watching you for a couple of years now, and it makes me nostalgic to see how you are growing
I just hate arraigned marriage tropes. I use them as a warning. If the book is done well enough, tropes don’t ruin it for me. I get why others don’t like them. I just like knowing what I’m getting into before I commit and have to return a DNF.
tropes hate nuance, if it doesn't fit into popular tropes it stops being algorithm friendly. so many good pieces of literature are much more than the tropes they might have
i love the videos that explain books through images and music, i think it really helps to set the scene for the kind of emotions you'll be feeling within the book!
thanks for the vid! I go with tropes for choosing fanfiction and vibes/associations/emotional response/problematic for the books. i guess tropes work so well for fanfiction because the reader is already familiar with original world and characters, so the magic of a good book had already happened, which is always the main ingredient. Therefore it is ideal way to get what you want, or narrow the search, or even try something new. And of course not even the full list of your favorite tropes will certainly make the original story click for you. What upsets me the most in so-called tropification is that it could shift focus for writers on their approach to writing stories & for publishers in choosing which stories to publish
I get that Tiktokification is a thing and that tropes is how book marketing works now (particularly for younger genres and online), but damn, when will BookTok and AuthorTok folks realise that books can't be *made* of tropes. They're an ingredient, prepared with care and blended in, not just the Kinder egg surprise you get in the middle. If you're truly hellbent enough you can boil down every story in existence to its constituent tropes and... newsflash... They'll all look the same. Tropes isn't where the character of a book comes from. It's how they're used.
I love your video essays, you truly add value to the booktube community 😊I think your analysis are complete but still entertaining to watch and you pay attention to nuances on the topic you are covering
Also, for people who love reading I totes get how modern tropes are annoying (they can be spoliery or strip a book down when it's much more than that etc) BUT for people new to reading who just like tropes? Good, at least people are reading. That's really the main thing imo. Now, does it make books "popular" that otherwise wouldn't be.. yeah. Authors kinda get this template that pushes mid books if they have the right tropes. BUT, there's no accounting for taste. So if people are reading I have a hard time being a hater. I'm a veracious reader and have been for 20 years, so I have no trouble sorting them out. Libby has a great thing where you can listen to a chapter before you borrow and it saves me lol.
the "at least people are reading" argument kinda gets me every time, because, without any offense to you personally, why oh why do we act like reading is an inherently good act? It's just an action. It isn't good people are reading, neither it is bad. I am not happy more people read, because why would I be? Them reading can mean literally anything. It's not inherently good to read. sorry, a little pointless offtopic ramble there
@@kinrateia idk, bc reading is known to have lots of benefits I guess. And it's always good when people discover a new passion or something that they normally wouldn't want to/feel too intimidated to do. I think breaking things down into easily digestible tropes makes it easier for some readers.
@@kinrateia To answer your question, it’s not like reading makes you better than other people, but it does exercise your mind in a way that, say, watching a movie doesn’t do as well, since you have to actively engage in it. That’s why schools are always encouraging kids to read. It helps people improve their writing and comprehension skills, enhances their concentration and attention spans, etc. etc. Also it’s a good way to get away from the screen. Of course, there’s nothing wrong with enjoying movies and not being a reader, and if you’re reading to procrastinate on other things that’s not necessarily good. It’s like with sports, it’s good that people are getting outside and exercising their bodies while also having fun! And for people that don’t like reading as much, I definitely agree with @klane2004 that it’s nice we have ways of getting into books easier so they can still have those benefits. Sorry for the long reply!! Hope I don’t come off as annoying or pedantic, I just kinda wanted to talk about reading
Yes, reading is a good mental exercise. That said, reading a lot of mid literature comes with some comedowns too. It can actually affect negatively your prose and thinking process. That's because the brain learn a lot through imitation amd when it gets used to a certain type of writting style it can start using it. Normally it isn't a problem, people reads all kind of books, some better some worse, but I've personally seen how some readers that only engage with some poorly written works, do end up being quite bad at writting. And I'm not talking at writting fiction, but in general terms. And they have problems when trying to understand long ideas. Any way, reading a bit is still more beneficial than not reading at all, in a general sense.
A cute little channel called extra credits informed me that Shakespeare wrote Hamlet, because that was the popular trope of the time ( there were a lot of plays with royal murders, ghosts and such).
I had to read so many excerpts from “Morphology of the Folktale” for an undergrad course and I had no idea it was written so early! Also I really appreciate your theory about the telling and re-telling of stories taking new shape in the current age. Stories don’t EVER have a single origin point! And never a “canon” version either. They are what we collectively make them.
I also find this problem with when they say “if you liked this…” “imagine a book that is*insert different books” or “if you like this vibes…”, is so annoying because tell me the plot I don’t care if your book is a combination of Harry Potter and Marni’s in the 1970s
my thoughts on this boils down to purely: if the readers of the book wanna promote the book with specific tropes in the book, then go for it whatever. However when it comes to the author/publisher doing it, it just feels kinda lifeless? Like you're telling me your story contains these things but you're not giving me any reason to care about the book because I do not know these characters or the actual setting of the story. Give me an actual summary, let the readers be the ones to "tag" the book if i wanted to read "enemies to lovers" i'll just read fanfiction for characters I already care about 😭 very nice video btw!!!! really enjoyed all the historical info given to all this
i normally read books based on their blurb or how others review it and i didn't see tropes as a problem before this video. i think tropes help people find a particular book they want to read at a particular time or helps readers be in a certain trope bubble that comforts them. but i think talking about a book based on tropes just makes it really simple and takes away the complexities of the story. like i might avoid a book sometimes because people are only focusing on the super specific trope and not on the story of the book. there are so many brilliant books out there that are being reduced to a certain trope and this kind of repels me. i might actually be missing out on a book that could become a favorite because i went into it with a wrong idea. loved the video by the way. i just love how much you research about a particular topic and share your thoughts on it. 💌💌💌
what's actually interesting is that I clearly remember in high school English class going over so called story 'tropes': Appearance vs reality, the journey, the search for identity. Brandon Sanderson would also call these plot archetypes, or themes. enemies to lovers, or fake dating, is simply more of this but for the romance genre. there will always be tropes and archetypes used to create innovative stories-- but as you said, there is a difference if they are done well or not. I love a good enemies to lovers, but there is a difference between two people setting aside their differences and.learning to see eye to eye, and eventually falling in love, vs "he hates me but he's cute. lets kiss now!"
As a whole, I feel like trope-based stories are written so people can relive the nostalgia they got from reading that trope as a pivotal element in a story for the first time. The problem with it is it places all the relevance on the trope itself and not the buildup and context surrounding it.
I strongly dislike trope marketing. It’s made booktok unbearable for me. But it’s worse that authors are essentially being forced to write tropes with a story around it instead of the other way around.
Exactly! I love that more people are reading that usually wouldn't. But I hate the way tropes have altered the type of books that get pushed out. But I still fully believe there are still great authors out there, not trying to just make a buck, putting out good books. It's just stupidly harder to find.
This is such an in-depth and interesting video. Another youtuber I subscribe to did a similar video and it was very obvious that hers was just surface level and phoned in so I'm really happy to see someone do actual research and put together an actual analysis of such a fun topic.
Wonderful video!! Personally, I think the problem here is not the people on TikTok or the audience, but rather the attempts of the trade publishing industry to “get with the times” or relate to younger audiences. The public has found new ways to describe books and recommend stories, just like we always have. It’s the publishing industry who is putting too much weight on what are essentially quick and catchy descriptions. Tropes aren’t the only things readers care about, but they are ways to find new books. As has been the case with a lot of stuff nowadays, it is the responsibility of the individual reader to further research or look into a recommended book, since there is such an abundance of books out there. Therefore, booktok and tropes are just new, quick ways to recommend books.
You don’t know how happy it made me to see the text theory analysis and theories in this video. I love structuralism and post structuralism, and the way you’ve explained it was so well, and it made me so happy
i LOVE silent book reviews, theyre my fav. i fucking love that they are physically showing you the emotions it gives them as they were reading it and how they feel about it. i love that stuff so much. like yes. i understand. i get this. i fuck with this.
Super interesting Leonie, I love your researched videos in which you bring together different perspectives, makes me thinm about stuff! It's still somehow interesting how our human need of classification is ever present is most everything that we do, but at the same time our need to escape from it.
I really hate the way things are so shallow. I want to be pulled into a book and I don't come up for air till the end of the book. All the books now are rammed up under "romantasy" and I am cringing... I like to discover well-written books. I love characters who are so adorable with depth and so worth my time. I don't mind retold stories if done well... I just don't like badly researched stories with insta-relationships and rushed endings.
I feel like tropes on booktok are super great for quick 15-30 second reviews, but not the only thing you should be caring about when looking for a new book to read
I actually love to discover romance books based on the tropes. I read mainly fantasy - from epic political drama to the cutest romance. Before I pick up a book, I never care what it is about. It can have really nice cover, or that I heard it’s one of the best fantasy series. I never read the synopsis. I watch a lot of TH-cam content to know who I should trust and just dive in knowing basically nothing of what to expect. But I am very picky when it comes to romantasy. I know I don’t need the most epic battles because I get them in adult fantasy. I just want mainly the romance with cringe banter and the angst etc. And it’s very easy to find those kind of books based on the tropes rather than synopsis. I once picked up a book based on one quote. And I loved that book.
@sandraswan9008 send it my way once it's finished! 😁❤️
@sandraswan9008 I feel this in my soul 😂 some of my starting dialogue is sooooo bad 💀
i don't like books being advertised with tropes, it ruins the whole discovery process, i wanna read and stumble upon a trope and then decide if it's being used correctly. am i alone in this?
Yess I said the exact same thing. Ppl advertise books the same way they would movies. They are just upfront with everything and tell instead of show. It rly takes the fun out of discovery and finding something unique like what you said.
Same
I agree
I treat them like trigger warnings and avoid stuff i don't like (forced proximity trope, as example, it sounds awful-)
I don’t mind tropes. If it has something I don’t like, I can just not read it.
The worst part about the proliferation of tropes as a form of advertising is that summaries have gotten significantly worse. Okay i know it’s enemies to lovers but what else happens
Even worse when the tropes mentioned are legitimately not in the book. The number of times I have seen 'enemies/rivals to lovers' and they were straight up not enemies or rivals....
@@alulea__ Disagreeing with someone for three pages or being of unsure of them because they're a new character being introduced to the protagonist for the first time does not constitute ETL. I don't know why it's portrayed as such. My guess, is that it's a marketing strategy to grab the attention of an established base of readers who enjoy that trope, or, they do not fully understand it (this could apply to any trope, really).
And I think the problem is that before the proliferation of tropes, summaries were still often kind of bad... Like, I think even before not enough attention was given toward distilling a story into a few paragraphs. Now, even less attention is given because slapping in the tropes is deemed good enough.
this is my gripe as well. It works in fanfiction because you usually look for fics of specific characters, so you already know the characters and you just want to know the setting or a couple references of what's gonna happen with them, but for actual books that are supposed to stand on their own that obviously have new characters and new plots it's just not enough as a summary.
I really dislike this kind of advertising on insta for example where there's a picture of a book and then just a couple tropes around it like "enemies to lovers", "found family", "heist" and... yes, I usually like those things but only if they work within the context of the story, so please give me an overview of the story?
Ok, yes, that's annoying af, but I raise you: Books that don't have summaries or tropes at all, but only blurbs from newspapers about how groundbreaking of a debut it is.
People are talking a lot about trope advertising, but the worst form of advertising for me is when books LIE about “if you liked [super popular book] then you’ll love this one!” And the two books are nothing alike
i hate this!! or it's like " ___ meets ___ in this new, enthralling tale" or something and it turns out to be a 2-star read so different from the books it was compared to. similar to tropes, they're just baiting readers fr
Or when the only things on the back of the book are the compliments by other authors
@@nathfofalinda and the compliments are so vague you can't tell if that author read the book they're complimenting 😂
Any YA Book with Fantasy Elements: "If you like Harry Potter!"
Any YA books with dystopian: "If you like Hunger Games!"
Any Adult Books with Fantasy Elements: "If you like Game of Thrones!"
It's basically approaching literature with advertising algorithms. Algorithms can't tell what's good or bad writing, they can only tell how many of the same keywords they find in the description of two books.
' no beta we die like *insert character from your fandom* '
I was thinking that too!
The best versions are the ones where you immediately think "how dare you" or "ouch" and then laugh bcos they are right.
that's my fav ngl, it hurts, but I always laugh
or "no beta we die like men" you can tell the fic will be exquisite
@@zvvchu I like when it's "no beta we die like mne".
Just to make clear, enemies to lovers was not meant to be bully and Stockholm syndrome victim. I hate when they marketed bullies as an "enemy" and a "lover". NO! The characters are enemies by confronting circumstances, values, political compass, socioeconomic status, etc, so when the romance happens is because they get pass those two different sides and POVs to find similarities and, of course, attraction and love. An a-h*** is not an "enemy", is just a sociopath, tag it as such.
Or if it's just a SA-ter/victim situation. ABSOLUTELY THE HELL NOT!!!
this is the reason I am currently writing my own "enemies to lovers" haha :))
Yes, there needs to be some kind of equality in the enemies
I'm afraid that bully romance is a sub trope of enemies to lovers.
So the category is not wrong.
But as someo who hates bully romances I understand your frustration.
"Enemies" should have equality between them. They should have the same energy, both giving back as much as the other when they butt heads
I feel the same about tropes as I do about trigger warnings: I want the information to be out there if I go looking for it, but I don't want it to be thrown at me otherwise because, when they go into so much detail, that can be spoiler-y and make the reading experience less interesting
Nailed it
See i feel that way about tropes but trigger warnings i feel should be given without always searching for it
(my biggest example being miscarriage and how that can be a very major thing for some people and not knowing that is in a book can hurt. I mainly use miscarriage just because i’ve seen it not have warnings - and how many people have expressed how it hurt them because of what’s going on in their own life, and they would’ve known not to pick that book up if they had that warning. )
but i can totally understand your stance too!
-and i don’t mean this to seem mean or anything ! i just love the conversation on whether or not things should be included-
You make a really, really good point.
@@dani5165I totally feel the same way about trigger warnings.
Oooh interesting. I agree with the overuse of tropes but not for trigger warnings, and I think it's down to safe reading experiences.
People who want to be surprised by a books content can EASILY skip a trigger warning list in a book, but it's very difficult for someone to unread a *surprise* in a book, such as a graphic rape scene, incest, etc. Tropes are often thrown at you and I think they frequently spoil the book (much like some movie trailers to), but I think trigger warnings are much more subtly given and can easily be avoided by simply skipping the page in a book or scrolling past a section of someone's book recommendation, since these are generally written.
I see a lot of video content advertising "fake dating where he needs someone to pretend to be his girlfriend so he can .. *insert huge spoiler*", where it's just given right to you, but I've never seen the same for trigger warnings - usually there's a short list at the end of someone's book recommendation, or just a general preface of "this book is dark, check TWs", where then you can make the choice of whether or not you want to seek out that information).
Maybe we just have different reading experiences, but can you talk more about how you feel trigger warnings are thrown at you?
Yes they are so many authors are writing books with no plot and just tropes strung together to appease Booktok and it’s getting harder to find good books in the specific genres I like 🤦🏾♀️
This is sort of my issue. These tropes have seemed to take precedence over actual plot/craft because tropes are the things that sell. And in my personal opinion, that means that a lot of mediocre or really bad books are being published and promoted and highly rated. So I pick one up and I'm...confused and unsatisfied.
Yes! I have given up on recommendations from TikTok etc. I now heavily rely on Reddit for recommendations, haha.
I feel similar - it has become so hard to scour through all the books that are recommended, or even just the shelves in the book stores, to find actual good ones that seem worth it. Tropes are great and all, but only if they work within the story and fit and it seems like a lot of authors just try to put as many popular tropes as possible into their books, no matter if they fit the plot or not. I want to read a story, not a trope. So many books where you can just *tell* that the author deliberately and forcibly put a trope in there and it kinda takes me out of it.
I've found that no matter much I pre-plan a story unexpected things happen and force me to change the story. You can't plan on having tropes as they may not jive with the story you end up writing.
I also think there is a difference between novels that just happen to have tropes in them and a book that clearly used tropes as building material. In the first one, the tropes usually fit vaguely if you squint or the trope in question is super broad. In the latter the trope is repeated so specify that you sometimes even get the same wording over and over again.
I realized once, when thinking about tropes I like and tropes I don't, that most of the tropes I loathe to see advertised are tropes that give away the entire plot of the story, because there's fewer ways the story can play out. I mean, when you see "fake dating" on the cover, you already know pretty much every major beat of the story - contrived setup forcing the leads together, forced romantic gestures, the leads develop real feelings, after some third act contrivances they confess their love and ride off into the sunset. I don't despise the concept of fake dating in books, but once I've read one fake dating book, I really feel like I've read them all. Meanwhile, tropes like "morally gray characters" or "forbidden love" bother me a lot less because there's a lot of ways the story can play out. All enemies to lovers books are basically the same, while not all books with morally gray characters are even remotely similar, do you know what I mean?
I thought of this too when in the video she mentioned tropes of fairytales and one of them being „villain tricks the main character“. That could mean so many different things whereas „enemies to lovers“ is usually going to follow the same story beats
this is exactly what i was thinking!!! i enjoy a good enemies to lovers plot line but my favorite thing about it is when i dont expect it, yk? if i already know its "enemies to lovers" it takes away the fun of "ohmygosh they're catching feelings!!!" idk its hard to explain lol
This is so perfectly put thank you
“I think Nature is healing” YES! thank you. I think there are so many talented fanfic writers out there with the potential to become great authors and writing fanfics is a great way for them to experiment and hone their skills.
I've been a fanfic writer for about a decade now and even just in my limited circle of writing friends from two pretty niche fandoms, I have personally known two other fanfic writers who went on to become published authors with their original fiction. This is my ultimate goal as well. I would be nowhere near as good at writing as I am now had I not gotten into fanfiction, and I'm forever grateful for it, despite how "cringe" many people consider the hobby to be. It's a beautiful form of self-expression and I firmly believe much of the demonization of it is rooted in misogyny.
I know that fanfics can't pay the bills but I think fanfics CAN be the work of a great author, not just a stepping stone to become one. I suppose being able to write an original work is really important but expanding on an existing work is a worthy practice of its own imo. But it is hard to find really really good ones.
i always say that if dostoevsky was alive today he'd be on ao3, not publishing on booktok. ao3 has genuine drive and soul. compare that to booktok, the writing is so soulless that i find it insulting
the fanficification of book publishing is actually what this goes back to honestly. same story different characters? same characters different story? tagging specific scenarios and tropes? all there. also literally publishing fanfiction is so big in the last decade too. also been on my mind as i was thinking about old greek stories. like after the illiad there was so much more written about the characters before and after that's essentially fan fiction but because it was so popular it's kind of blended in with the illiad's "canon". think the trojan horse that's not even from the original illiad but from later works taking place after.
The thing with the Illiad is that it was part of the popular mythos, so, even if Homer's version was deemed as the best telling of that story, it probable already existed before he wrote it down. In ancient times author could write the same story in ten different ways because those stories came from the oral tradition and people's folk. The idea of "canon" in that age was unthinkable. And not only in greece, but in other places of the world too. So they weren't really doing fan fiction in our modern way of thinking, they were telling and retelling, expanding ir reducing, stories that didn't come with copyright and were owned by everyone.
Don't forget, the ancient Greeks considered the Trojan war a historical fact, and the popular mythos surrounding it their actual history.
In much the same way that Euripedes didn't invent the myth about Helen in Egypt when writing his famous play, Homer almost definitely did not invent the myths he decided to dramatisise.
The Iliad only covers a very small part of the Trojan war, from the withdrawal of Achilles from battle to the funeral of Hector. It is not a comprehensive retelling of it all: Homer had a very specific narrative he wanted to convey.
I believe the Trojan horse specifically is mentioned in the Odyssey, funnily enough. A lot of the consensus about the general conclusion of the war and what followed stems from Odysseus's retelling of it in Homer's Odyssey.
Thissssss
17:22 Putting Dante when you talk of fanfiction is the most accurate thing ever. The Divine Comedy is the best example of a self-insert to ever exist and I will die on that hill
There is much more to The Divine Comedy than Dante being its main character. The self-insert in fan-fiction serves only one purpose, and that is to allow the writer to fantasise that they are included in their favourite stories. The Divine Comedy does not do that. Otherwise, what favourite fiction is Dante inserting himself into? I can see the temptation to call The Divine Comedy 'self-insert' because the author is the main character -- but no attempt is made to hide that fact, whereas a genuine self-insert is disguised as someone who simply (but unbelievably) belongs in the fictional universe in question. If calling the main character by the writer's name is all it takes to make a work self-insert fan-fiction, then autofiction and autobiographical fiction don't exist as genres.
@@joshuapray ur comment sort of comes off as a "erm ackshually" kind of remark, but u make a good point!! i think people call it a self insert in a way that applies our modern perception of what Dante's work is, even with calling it fanfic bc at the time the term and concept didnt exist, but ure right to point out the subtlety between an actual self insert compared to just inserting oneself directly and blatantly into the work
ill keep that in mind when looking at other "fanfics" of the past!! thanks
Dante is right up there with Lancelot lmao
@@joshuapraybecause dante makes his self insert meet people he looked up to and make them say good things about him. he also put everyone he hated in hell and makes fun of them. it’s a fanfic of the bible with crossover characters of everyone he hates/loves
@@joshuaprayDante made an exploration of something deeply important to him using himself as the protagonist to not also discover it all but receive the praise of the people he looks up to and also condemn to hell the people he hated.
That can and I'm sure has been done today with self insert fanfiction, by the fact that we are a shit ton of people in these planet more literate than we were centuries ago.
self insert is SUCH a broad genre because it really can be anything as long as the author has inserted themselves in. It can be just a self fulfilment fantasy written with no ambitions beyond that of the author being happy or it can be used as a deep exploration of the thing you're inserting yourself in and then, yourself.
So yeah, The Divine Comedy is self insert bible fanfiction, a really good one, but one at the end of the day, and you could only think that is an insult if you believe self insert fanfiction to be a form of inferior literature in the first place.
the problem with "accepting" this tropeification is that authors think they need to write to appeal to it and can only market their book as tropes. the books themselves are losing their plots and the characters their complexity because authors are more focused on the marketing side of things (which is understandable, they're trying to sell their art in a capitalist world), but i really think we should leave "tropes" behind. when it's something niche for the tiktok and ao3 girlies (gn) it's fine, but when it becomes the only marketing strategy the publishers use, i think we need to give it a step in other direction. in conclusion, we need to come back to (re)telling stories because they're compelling, even if they're cliche, and not because the only way to be successful selling your story is through booktok.
Yeah. A good story is more than stacking up nice elements. It has to be created as a whole, even those less than exciting parts help holding it together. You have to write more than a combination of tropes for them to shine, and if you start from the tropes only, you will end up with something less then that.
The author guiltiest of this is the one behind Lightlark and Nightbane
Plus like, even with AO3 stories that are tagged via tropes,
they can still have actual story and plot that uses tropes but is unique and not spoiled by tags.
My favorite example is this insanely good fanfic tagged a basically “magical college au mystery.” Which is true!
But as the mystery unraveled, they found that they were LITERALLY in an artificially created alternate timeline, because some gods needed time to stop a prophecy so they backed up the clock about 20 years, then slowly discover that their friends ARE the gods that did that and the spell messed up their memories.
And they are still college students during this!
So TLDR “Tropes limiting your book? Skill issue”
@@gracel2mart that is so true! i totally believe it’s a skill issue as well. cliches and tropes aren’t the problem, but when you think you can put whatever on paper just because it has the tiktok favs… that’s just bad writing
An interesting thing that I’ve noticed about “tropification” is that tropes are usually romantic and commonly only present in plots/sub plots that involve romance. For example, you don’t see tropes in (for example) science fiction books I.e, they’re not condensed to being described and promoted as “sun explodes”, or “alien invasion”, or with thrillers, you don’t see people saying “books with the ‘kidnapping’/‘covering up murder’/‘police chase’ tropes. Because for all these other genres, they’re plot points, not “tropes” used to market them. It’s interesting how tropes seem to be exclusively genre-centric to romance, I’d like to see someone break down how that came to be.
My exact thoughts....Tropes are mostly Romance-Centric ... I feel that's bcoz it's the most popular / talked about genre
I feel like they show up a lot in fantasy, too: chosen one, wise old mentor, mentor who's actually the villain, mysterious prophecy, long journey, tournament or trials, magic school, killing a god…
One word. Fanfiction.
Same
@@emilyrln fantasy definitely has a lot of tropes too, but it doesnt seem like anyone talks about those tropes or reduces those stories down to those tropes in the same way they do romance ones. i certainly havent seen people marketing a book as a long journey or chosen one story the same way i have seen them marketing a book as enemy to lovers, yannow?
Another option of recomending books that I LOVE is "oddly specific recomendations" such as "a book to read at 3am with a cup of tea and candlelights" or "childhood feverdream". I guess it's like the aesthetic recommendation but with words kinda.
gosh I can't really get behind these because the definition of the authors who are (usually!!) from first world countries are wildly different from mine! i find it really interesting how cultural differences seep so deep into the fabric of a book
I've been subscribed to your TH-cam channel for a few years now and it is such a full circle moment to see that you referenced my article in your description and video -- the one titled "Are tropes ruining books" from the Michigan Daily. I'm so glad you liked it and thank you for making this video :)
time-stamp: 34:01
wow! love this!
haha i like ur username
I’m a teenager writing my first book, and it’s honestly amazing watching your channel to understand the basics of these things so I can think about how my book would be towards people other than me. I’m learning a lot from you! Thanks for teaching me so much
That's amazing! I hope your writing goes well and you learn a lot from it. Best of luck to you :)
The thing with TikTok books is there's no subtlety with the tropes. It doesn't seem natural anymore because they just tell you that it's "close proximity" or whatever trope and even spoon-feed it to the readers. There are good writers who didn't even know they were creating these tropes in their story and still make it a good story without making the trope the whole story.
My boyfriend writes academic articles about the similarities in ancient Arabic and Greek stories. There is very little written about that, while they are sometimes so alike!
This sounds so cool, is there somewhere I could find these?
It sounds so interesting! It’s really astonishing how totally different countries are actually connected, for example Turkish book illustrations were pretty much influenced by Chinese art
That is so interesting !
We tend to think ancient humans were isolated, but they were so many contacts, exchanged and influenced between humans groups/ cultures.
I studied Greek mythology and religion and we can see the influence of Sumerian religion on it.
I love recommending classic lit using booktoc tags. Like
Crime and punishment as Grumpy x Sunshine
Ahahaha that genius. I think things may actually captivate those, who doesn't like classic lit
both the english major and library sciences in me are thrilled about this video. examining the working processes of narratives to categorize them, but also to understand and appreciate the art and mastery in creating the story itself- UGH i'm losing my mind. i love your video essays. thanks!
That moment when Leonie gives you a new source for your MA thesis on fairy tale adaptations. Thank you! :D
This also means that I am counting watching this video as doing research and thus am being productive right now.
What's your title?:)
@@lottecooper4370 Young Adult Cinderella Adaptations :) I haven't thought of a fun and fancy title yet :D
@@Nicoleeeeeeee8 that's cool, have fun! (Or well, I mean at least good luck and I hope you don't drown in work)
37:14 I agree with this idea, I like tropes as a starting point/a short description of the book which lets you decide if you want to look into it more.
Ah, the “who did this to you” combined with the “enemies to lovers” that is like my kryptonite. I will go weak for a well writtten scene with those two components
Do you have any recommandation for particularly good ones? 🥺
pathetic
@@thechumbucket8986Hey, don’t be rude. People like what they like. I love tropes, too, including the “who hurt you” one
I once found an existentialist fanfic for Pong. Yes, one of the original video games on the Atari. Existentialist Pong Fanfiction exists and its really really good.
can you send a link to it?
I edged to it
The fanfiction opening with dante on it made me laugh so hard. RIP Dante, you would have loved ao3
You nailed it at the start- TikTok itself waters down learning. I’m a teacher, and we had a seminar on how to start teaching in rapid 7-second increments because our students are learning in short bursts. Trope-ifying is just an extension of this… “why read an entire synopsis when we can rapidly categorise books?”
If I was told to start teaching in seven second increments, I would quit.
Learning can be fun, but it is also supposed to be hard. It can't be fun if there is no challenge in it.
Tiktok isn't even fun. It is more like a drug. It provides instant gratification, which triggers pleasure hormones. If a student can't work hard for a long-term goal, teaching that student is a waste of time.
One of the first things I remember learning in creative writing classes was the argument that there are only 2 types of stories: "I am going on a journey" and "A stranger comes to town".
The language we use to talk about stories may evolve over time but complete originality seems to be an unfair ask these days where not only have more books "been done" every day, but you also have immediate access to more of them than ever. The good news is that there is room for everything. Some people may get annoyed if whatever is popular is not to their taste or standards, but that doesn't mean whatever you're looking for isn't also out there.
Edit: One positive of grouping books by their tropes/vibes is that it may encourage people to branch into a new genre for a trope they love. It's another tool like genre that has its usefulness but shouldn't be the end of the conversation about that book.
There's this tension that exists in all art, between the collective and the individual, which fascinates me. Nothing is truly original, but each person who gets ahold of it adds their own little twist. We have names for different periods and trends in different fields of art, and those periods were made of individuals who then pushed toward the next period. I think the modern concept of copyright removes a lot of nuance from this- I obviously support people getting paid for the creative work they do, but sometimes it gets pushed way too far to where people forget that everything you make is influenced by other stuff. The recent omegaverse lawsuit is a huge example of this!
my take is this; yes it's overused to use tropes as a sort of summary of the book but i feel it's more personal preference to choose books based on tropes or not. My issue actually arises when a book is marketed off a popular trope/ or combination of, but doesn't provide a good story as the background. Yes i do enjoy scratching the itch of a grumpy sunshine or fake dating sometimes but because these are so popular there's so many bland ones to get through. Most recently read powerless which is essentially just a rehash of tons of popular tropes and stories (deathly games, enemies to lovers, main girl is different) but I thought it was enjoyable, while not original. A tempest of tea also had lots of popular genre? tropes i'd say (heist, vampires, love triangle) but felt pretty hollow. So I don't hate the idea of tropes being such a big part of creating/ promoting books but i do fully believe it just creates tons of similar books. And it can be pretty hit or miss with all of these books getting popular.
hey I have an idea: Ignore TikTok exists. Works for me.
Yes, ignore TikTok. But do, by all means, get the subscription box that sponsored this video. Because that is not the most ridiculous product for anyone with an honest interest in literature.
@@FOLKEN1979 It seems more focused on recent books, is that right? I just started really getting into reading a year ago and have a backlog of 500 SciFi books to read, alot of old stuff.. Also, do they ship to France?
@@TrynePlague My friend. I was being sarcastic. If you like Science fiction, there is an endless well of information both casual and professional to help you pick and choose the best it has to offer. You don't need absurd products like the one sponsoring this video. Good luck with your research and enjoy your sci-fi.
Easier said than done when books these days are written specifically to appeal to the TikTok crowd. Even if you try you just can't get away from it.
And it's also worrying more long term. I shudder to think what this will result in 10-20 years down the line. You can see it in YA's influence on adult books. We now have a generation of young writers who grew up reading little but YA. Most of them think they can just *say* that their character is 20-30 years old, add some sex and swearing and call it an "adult" book. Meanwhile the writing style, approach to themes and characters, depth and the tropes are still immediately recognizable as YA.
@@S_Black Ah, makes sense. That's one of the tags I instinctively avoid on goodreads. Guess the trend will die down some day... and no one is going to remember anything that has been written during that period. I only read SF and mostly from the 30's to 90's so I don't really get the booktok stuff. And I don't want to see for myself neither. That app is pure cancer as is SM culture in general.
Tropes don't ruin books. Bad writers ruin tropes.
I can't believe how lucky I am to be enrolled in the University of Leonie. Seriously. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't, but you always make me think and reevaluate.
you quoting Levi Strauss, Barthes... my anthropologist heart getting emotional.
If literature is going trope-y, I'd love to hear ideas from people about weird/not done yet tropes! So fun to discover what people would either like OR write a trope book about! ❤❤❤
One archetype I’d love to see is a healer character with either VERY grey morality or wavering loyalty, or both!
Ooooh, I've had this idea before, too! Like, to go on TVTropes and just hit 'random page' until something comes up that I've never seen before!
I think it would be refreshing to see a character begin a story as very outgoing and extroverted, but undergo growth and development to eventually become more introverted and reserved by the story's end. The inverse of this is possibly one of the most overused, and misunderstood, tropes in fiction, so well written subversions of it are hard to come by.
As a newly masters graduate in Art history I really really appreciate your way of academically splitting these things into atoms haha!
I really enjoy the “aesthetic” recommendations, but I also often find that i don’t feel the aesthetic I was promised, when I finally read the book. I think that people also fall into aestheticizing the aesthetic for the content, which makes sense bc who would watch the video or read a book if the aesthetic recommendation itself isn’t aesthetic? I find that my best experience is when I take recommendations from pure explained “vibes” and “feelings” and don’t get the visual aesthetic. But this may also be bc I primarily enjoy atmospherical, weird and character driven books, and couldn’t give less fcks about the plot if the above doesn’t hit me haha
the gasp I gusped when you showed the supernatural coffeeshop au 😭
My book would have that one "Cannibalism as a metaphor for love" but it sundenlly got SO popular on tiktok, and people started making it look so bad and mediocry that I just discarted the idea, afraid that my reads would go "ewww tiktoker book..."
This is such a thoughtful dive into how books are being marketed today. Thanks for making this vid and I hope you are proud of it bc it must have taken a lot of time!!
First of all; I like your editing, and I subscribed! Found this by chance while watching other booktubers I'm getting into.
Your early point around 7:00 is the one I've been thinking about the most. With the rise of self-publishing and this newfound accessibility for indie authors, we're seeing people getting into marketing their own work and doing the same things that big publishers have been doing since forever, warts and all. It's understandable, and not entirely black and white.
It is so funny to see someone make a video essay about stuff that I researched extensively for a university paper last year. Back then, I took a seminar about fanfiction and for my final grade I wrote a paper about fanfic versions of red riding hood and analysed some through a feminist lense.
While only little bits of the reading made it into the paper, the whole history of the fairytale categories and also the discussions about fanfiction and the history of "originality" in literature and the concept of authorship/copyright was what I spend most time on. I went deep down thay research rabbit hole and I loved it. (I love that my university is open to topics like that in my German and English literature degree.)
Anyway, all that said, great video! I love that you are able to summarise all that in one video that is accessable and understandable for peope outside of academia.
Vladimir Propp!!! Love the analysis of folktales so much I could cry. There’s a point you keep skirting around (maybe unintentionally) that I wish you had addressed- analysing and identifying patterns isn’t inherently saying there’s only value in the shared characteristics. Seeing commonalities in the structure of multiple stories doesn’t mean they’re all the same now (obviously). It’s a valid analytical lens through which to view those tales for compare-and-contrast. I don’t think finding patterns in the way people across nations tell stories takes away from those stories’s uniqueness, it’s just one way to look at them… would love to hear your ideas on this
I don't mind using tropes to discuss books because in my mind, it's like when you're browsing a menu. You might go in thinking "oh I want a romance with a enemies to lovers dynamic" in the same way you open an app for food delivery being like "I want something spicy with chicken". The variations there are far and wide, and most people will do a little more digging (read the description of the book vs picking a type of cuisine) before committing, but having that quick tag of a particular trope you like might be a way for readers to steer towards (or avoid) book recs. The actual experience of reading or eating is going to be so much deeper than just those tags, but those tags are short hand to get us to find the experience we're looking for.
I'm personally more annoyed by using "spicy" as an algorithm safe version of "sexy". I know you're trying to avoid your tiktok getting suppressed, but if you refuse to call sexy scenes sexy, my brain refuses to take you seriously.
@@sayruh2794 You mentioned why people do it and yet you dislike them for it?
@@19Rena96 never said I dislike the person doing it, and I am allowed to be annoyed by whatever annoys me. I'm old and a Tumblr vet where censoring yourself is considered rude bc it gets around blocked tags and terms
@@sayruh2794 ofc a tumblr person.. i should have known lol
@@19Rena96??? Kind of confused by the aggressive tone. Apologies if my opinion offended you? I don't think I'll be interacting with this thread anymore. Be well ✌️
To me tagging (in fanfics and in print original books) is useful for finding work but I usually find things by excluding tags. Like there are things I don't want to read (accidental pregnancy) especially without knowing about it going in and seeing the tropes or tags lets you choose exactly what you want to read.
I live for these video essays 📚 this girlie knows how to do her research and deliver
I love that overall mild background music plays throughout the video but for the fanfiction part the music gets "the end of the world" drama level xD
Her hair!!!! sooo sooo pretty! I love the asthetics it shows how a book will make you feel where its set with music that adds to the asthetic of the book its in my opinion way better than reducing a book down to the 'who did this to you trope'. And maybe this is just me but i don't think i would read a book just becouse it has one scene where a love interest say 'who did this to you' really liked this video :)
I NEED the emotional aspect of books; that’s how I figure out if it’s a favorite or not, so I LOVE to go by “the feels” or “the vibe”
My problem with "tropes as ads" is less with them being the focus as much as the implications.
If your book is sold as a set of tropes, that's all it will ever be perceived as. There is no chance to be surprised or to be impressed by the story or the writing itself, becuase you already knew - not because of your monkey brain doing pattern recognition but because ads told you - how things will play out.
This isn't bad on its own, but it's... just giving up a lot of what makes reading novels engaging.
The unique thing about reading a novel as opposed to watching a movie is that's a personal process through which you explore at your own pace a unique "world", a self-contained universe.
By skipping this process of exploration what are you obtaining? Just the same, safe, pattern of events which you can consume like popcorn. It's turning the act of reading from this personal experience (regardless of what a book is, it is ultimately a personal experience by definition unless you are reading the same page with another person, and even then you would have to read out loud and stop to analyze every line together) into.... watching a sitcom, waiting for the punchline that you know will be there because it was in the title of the episode.
On one hand I can't criticize people from engaging with an hobby as they want.
On the other hand, they aren't actually being "free" in doing so. It's a market that has been built to sell mroe and more products, to push the next "big thing" and try to make people buy into something because of ads and FOMO.
Booktok isn't "free", and people aren't naturally coming to this tropes-based reading on their own
really enjoyed this video!! connecting that academic rabbit hole to current-day tiktok and ao3 is super interesting! definitely agree that recommending books by tropes has both pros and cons. I haven't seen recommendations based on aesthetics on tiktok as much but I think those are kind of cool, very curious to see if they become more of a thing
The "one word troupe" that I have boycotted is "unputdownable"
Seriously?!? The publishing industry is literally a word of words, and THIS is a hot new buzzword? WTF! Do better book industry!
the worst thing about all these tropes is that some people just start writing "enemies to lovers" with just their prior knowledge of the trope and not actually making it work in the context of their story. its practically just writing out a fantasy
Your analysis of how tropes are being overused in social media content is very well researched and presented, it was a pleasure to follow along. I most appreciated your suggestions for alternatives. One of my favorite book related subreddits asks people to essentially recommend books by vibes, to suggest a book that "feels like this." Like you said, it makes the experience of the story the primary drive almost like a visual version of a "Blind Date with a Book".
i really feel like fanfiction and "original" works are fundamentally different ways to approach art and that's where my issue with the tropification of published fiction stems from. fanfiction is about putting the characters you already know in a specific situation. you already know those characters. with og fiction, you don't. and the fact that the authors and fans are both massively focused on the tropes i think is partly what contributes to the shit quality of the writing. the tiktok trope books basically are just the same books over and over and they genuinely just don't even attempt to flesh out characters or a plot or anything because they only care about the tropes. or it's something that is reduced to a single trope when that book has way more to offer.
I could not agree more with the end of the video ! Describing books with our emotions is the most beautiful and effective way to share it and to make people wanna read it. If someone is telling me that a book made them cry, laugh or feel anything, I can assure you I will buy that book without even wanting to know the plot before
I don't think tropes are ruining books on the organic, popular marketing side. That's totally fine and understandable and I argue healthy for romance specifically. the problem is on the writing/publishing side. When authors write shallow tropes just to get picked up because publishers want trendy, then they market based only on the tropes to feed the trend, it floods the market with mediocre stories no one is happy they read. But we can't stop trying new ones anyway 😢
This felt like a doctoral thesis that was so well executed while also being entertaining and engaging??? I’m so impressed.
As a published author, answering the question on the title, absolutely yes, tropes are kinda ruining modern literature.
Specially in my country, where the majority of synopsis is no longer telling the premise, but describing the main characters in the most ridiculous way (for example, Cassie is an ordinary girl with a mysterious past, Dylan is a hot tough guy with a soft side that only Cassie knows, etc) and listing the tropes chronologically, which gives the impression of lack of effort in the writing, like "you can't think on a fresh premise, so you rely on what others did, huh".
Totally! Like they're just painting by number instead of actually writing genuinely. They just get a checklist of popular tropes, make up a few names, and sloppily string it all together.
I love the connection you made between academics and fanfiction/tiktok, it makes sense! History just keeps repeating itself
The idea that the tropication comes from fanfiction is interesting, but, at the very least, not complete. I've been a self published author since 2010. And very quickly after that, my writing group of successful authors were very focused on tropes, making sure to include them in the titles and call them out in the descriptions.
So, the heightened focus on tropes might have arisen at the same time as with fanfiction. But I was one of the ones who helped push it in my writing group and I had no idea what fanfiction was back then.
And when I looked for a list of tropes for my books, the list I found online was from TV shows.
So, fanfiction didn't invent it or popularize it. It just used tropes like everyone else did as an indexing tool. And now TikTok is doing the same.
But that doesn't take anything away from your very interesting and well researched video. I enjoyed it! 😊
You can find so many recurring tropes in the Horror genre, even from decades ago, so i'd definitely agree that Fan Fictions popularized it in other genre but wasn't the cause.
Shoutout to TVTropes. That site is such a good resource for familiarizing yourself with different tropes and how they're used, and even how to subvert them.
Very interesting and in-depth exploration of this topic. I will say that using a moodboard to represent a story is something that was very popular back in the day on tumblr, which is very similar to the aesthetic presentation that you mentioned at the end
i think that tropes kinda ruin the whole reading experience cuz' nowadays it's harder to find books that are unique first of all, and it's harmfull in the sense that writers are more likely to not get into the publishing if their book can't fit well into one or more of the common tropes. Also i just don't like the stuff that most if not every popular trope is coming with, it's not my kind of thing, so i'm way more likely to find nice books for myself that are quite old or just not newly pyblished, which sucks to be honest, i wanna find new interesting books. Also If i'm interested in a book and later on i hear someone discribe it with any of the popular tropes i instantly don't want to read it XD even if it could be actually a good book, and it shouldn't be this way.
Leonie I ATE UP this video omg. I study linguistics with a particular focus on psycholinguistics and you have sparked so many ideas, questions, theories etc. that I can’t wait to explore further. These sorts of videos make me appreciate your book reviews even more than I already did! Also the rip memes had me giggling so that’s a plus too 🤣
my favorite romance novel to this point is The Charm Offensive by Alison Cochran and it's honestly because I went into it not knowing what the tropes would be. I didn't realize the kind of romance would arise or between which characters. I get that tropes help readers get an idea what to expect, but having a surprise to know how relationships develop when entering a story is half the journey itself. spice levels and trigger warnings are great, but just like in real life, I prefer relationships to develop naturally and unexpectedly in books.
I’m only 12 min in and the resources you’ve found on the fairytale categorisation is blowing my mind! Thank you so much!!! 🤩✨🌸🙏
I personally dont like it. I wish it had stayed as part of fanfiction. It literally spoils aspects of the relationships and plots are thrown aside to fit into them. I wouldnt even mind as much if the publishing industry wouldnt follow this for most of the recent mainstream realeases, or if said releases werent SO bad. I hate it because now its harder to find a book that has a nice plot instead of feeling like a bunch of tropes combined with no good development.
What an incredible video! The amount of research you did is remarkable. I can't believe I watched a video about tik tok trends that also covered Russian formalists and deconstructist theory, stuff I read for my master's and phd on literature. Amazing work! Also, I love when the light gets a bit darker and the candles behind you get super intense and warm 🥰
as a bookseller, i find tropes rly helpful to a) browse publishing catalogues twice a year (which takes a lot of unpaid time), and b) to recommend books to customers who are either looking for something specific, or don't have a lot of time to browse, or i can only get a quick chat with them due to it being busy and still want to grab their attention to show them a cool book - basically, it's a useful shorthand way of communication, like you said!
Your hair looks so beautiful!!!! Omg I missed watching your videos and loved to hear you again, I've been watching you for a couple of years now, and it makes me nostalgic to see how you are growing
I just hate arraigned marriage tropes. I use them as a warning. If the book is done well enough, tropes don’t ruin it for me. I get why others don’t like them. I just like knowing what I’m getting into before I commit and have to return a DNF.
loved the video and the throwback to ancient "tropification". I love a good history chat!
tropes hate nuance, if it doesn't fit into popular tropes it stops being algorithm friendly. so many good pieces of literature are much more than the tropes they might have
i love the videos that explain books through images and music, i think it really helps to set the scene for the kind of emotions you'll be feeling within the book!
thanks for the vid!
I go with tropes for choosing fanfiction and vibes/associations/emotional response/problematic for the books.
i guess tropes work so well for fanfiction because the reader is already familiar with original world and characters, so the magic of a good book had already happened, which is always the main ingredient. Therefore it is ideal way to get what you want, or narrow the search, or even try something new. And of course not even the full list of your favorite tropes will certainly make the original story click for you.
What upsets me the most in so-called tropification is that it could shift focus for writers on their approach to writing stories & for publishers in choosing which stories to publish
I get that Tiktokification is a thing and that tropes is how book marketing works now (particularly for younger genres and online), but damn, when will BookTok and AuthorTok folks realise that books can't be *made* of tropes. They're an ingredient, prepared with care and blended in, not just the Kinder egg surprise you get in the middle.
If you're truly hellbent enough you can boil down every story in existence to its constituent tropes and... newsflash... They'll all look the same. Tropes isn't where the character of a book comes from. It's how they're used.
I love your video essays, you truly add value to the booktube community 😊I think your analysis are complete but still entertaining to watch and you pay attention to nuances on the topic you are covering
Also, for people who love reading I totes get how modern tropes are annoying (they can be spoliery or strip a book down when it's much more than that etc) BUT for people new to reading who just like tropes? Good, at least people are reading. That's really the main thing imo. Now, does it make books "popular" that otherwise wouldn't be.. yeah. Authors kinda get this template that pushes mid books if they have the right tropes. BUT, there's no accounting for taste. So if people are reading I have a hard time being a hater. I'm a veracious reader and have been for 20 years, so I have no trouble sorting them out. Libby has a great thing where you can listen to a chapter before you borrow and it saves me lol.
the "at least people are reading" argument kinda gets me every time, because, without any offense to you personally, why oh why do we act like reading is an inherently good act? It's just an action. It isn't good people are reading, neither it is bad. I am not happy more people read, because why would I be? Them reading can mean literally anything. It's not inherently good to read. sorry, a little pointless offtopic ramble there
@@kinrateia idk, bc reading is known to have lots of benefits I guess. And it's always good when people discover a new passion or something that they normally wouldn't want to/feel too intimidated to do. I think breaking things down into easily digestible tropes makes it easier for some readers.
@@kinrateia To answer your question, it’s not like reading makes you better than other people, but it does exercise your mind in a way that, say, watching a movie doesn’t do as well, since you have to actively engage in it. That’s why schools are always encouraging kids to read. It helps people improve their writing and comprehension skills, enhances their concentration and attention spans, etc. etc. Also it’s a good way to get away from the screen.
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with enjoying movies and not being a reader, and if you’re reading to procrastinate on other things that’s not necessarily good. It’s like with sports, it’s good that people are getting outside and exercising their bodies while also having fun! And for people that don’t like reading as much, I definitely agree with @klane2004 that it’s nice we have ways of getting into books easier so they can still have those benefits.
Sorry for the long reply!! Hope I don’t come off as annoying or pedantic, I just kinda wanted to talk about reading
Yes, reading is a good mental exercise. That said, reading a lot of mid literature comes with some comedowns too. It can actually affect negatively your prose and thinking process. That's because the brain learn a lot through imitation amd when it gets used to a certain type of writting style it can start using it. Normally it isn't a problem, people reads all kind of books, some better some worse, but I've personally seen how some readers that only engage with some poorly written works, do end up being quite bad at writting. And I'm not talking at writting fiction, but in general terms. And they have problems when trying to understand long ideas. Any way, reading a bit is still more beneficial than not reading at all, in a general sense.
@@kinrateia Reading is good tho?
A cute little channel called extra credits informed me that Shakespeare wrote Hamlet, because that was the popular trope of the time ( there were a lot of plays with royal murders, ghosts and such).
I had to read so many excerpts from “Morphology of the Folktale” for an undergrad course and I had no idea it was written so early!
Also I really appreciate your theory about the telling and re-telling of stories taking new shape in the current age. Stories don’t EVER have a single origin point! And never a “canon” version either. They are what we collectively make them.
I also find this problem with when they say “if you liked this…” “imagine a book that is*insert different books” or “if you like this vibes…”, is so annoying because tell me the plot I don’t care if your book is a combination of Harry Potter and Marni’s in the 1970s
Thank you for this interesting and well researched perspective on this subject! (that has recently became tropified in itself 😅)
my thoughts on this boils down to purely: if the readers of the book wanna promote the book with specific tropes in the book, then go for it whatever. However when it comes to the author/publisher doing it, it just feels kinda lifeless? Like you're telling me your story contains these things but you're not giving me any reason to care about the book because I do not know these characters or the actual setting of the story. Give me an actual summary, let the readers be the ones to "tag" the book
if i wanted to read "enemies to lovers" i'll just read fanfiction for characters I already care about 😭
very nice video btw!!!! really enjoyed all the historical info given to all this
i normally read books based on their blurb or how others review it and i didn't see tropes as a problem before this video. i think tropes help people find a particular book they want to read at a particular time or helps readers be in a certain trope bubble that comforts them. but i think talking about a book based on tropes just makes it really simple and takes away the complexities of the story. like i might avoid a book sometimes because people are only focusing on the super specific trope and not on the story of the book. there are so many brilliant books out there that are being reduced to a certain trope and this kind of repels me. i might actually be missing out on a book that could become a favorite because i went into it with a wrong idea.
loved the video by the way. i just love how much you research about a particular topic and share your thoughts on it. 💌💌💌
what's actually interesting is that I clearly remember in high school English class going over so called story 'tropes': Appearance vs reality, the journey, the search for identity. Brandon Sanderson would also call these plot archetypes, or themes. enemies to lovers, or fake dating, is simply more of this but for the romance genre. there will always be tropes and archetypes used to create innovative stories-- but as you said, there is a difference if they are done well or not. I love a good enemies to lovers, but there is a difference between two people setting aside their differences and.learning to see eye to eye, and eventually falling in love, vs "he hates me but he's cute. lets kiss now!"
As a whole, I feel like trope-based stories are written so people can relive the nostalgia they got from reading that trope as a pivotal element in a story for the first time. The problem with it is it places all the relevance on the trope itself and not the buildup and context surrounding it.
i don't like tropes, i think it ruins the surprise. also LOOOVE your channel
I strongly dislike trope marketing. It’s made booktok unbearable for me. But it’s worse that authors are essentially being forced to write tropes with a story around it instead of the other way around.
I love this topic because I can understand both sides!
Exactly! I love that more people are reading that usually wouldn't. But I hate the way tropes have altered the type of books that get pushed out. But I still fully believe there are still great authors out there, not trying to just make a buck, putting out good books. It's just stupidly harder to find.
This is such an in-depth and interesting video. Another youtuber I subscribe to did a similar video and it was very obvious that hers was just surface level and phoned in so I'm really happy to see someone do actual research and put together an actual analysis of such a fun topic.
Great video, it's neat to hear this issue broken down and contextualized within the broader strokes of literary history.
This was such an interesting video. I loved the history parts added throughout the video as someone who loves history and booktok.
Its sounds exactly like the "TV Tropes Syndrome" from like 2006-11
Its kinda solves itself when people get bored of it
I've seen a couple of other good videos and read some articles about "tropification" and this is by far the best. Such really great points!
Wonderful video!!
Personally, I think the problem here is not the people on TikTok or the audience, but rather the attempts of the trade publishing industry to “get with the times” or relate to younger audiences. The public has found new ways to describe books and recommend stories, just like we always have. It’s the publishing industry who is putting too much weight on what are essentially quick and catchy descriptions. Tropes aren’t the only things readers care about, but they are ways to find new books. As has been the case with a lot of stuff nowadays, it is the responsibility of the individual reader to further research or look into a recommended book, since there is such an abundance of books out there. Therefore, booktok and tropes are just new, quick ways to recommend books.
I was waiting for you to bring up Joseph Campbell and the 'Hero with a Thousand Faces', lol
Absolutely spat out my water when I heard the names Levi-Strauss and Barthes being dropped in a discussion of tiktok trends. 10/10, great video!
I find it sooo cool to recommend a book based in images you'd get while reading it 😮❤
You don’t know how happy it made me to see the text theory analysis and theories in this video. I love structuralism and post structuralism, and the way you’ve explained it was so well, and it made me so happy
i LOVE silent book reviews, theyre my fav. i fucking love that they are physically showing you the emotions it gives them as they were reading it and how they feel about it. i love that stuff so much. like yes. i understand. i get this. i fuck with this.
Super interesting Leonie, I love your researched videos in which you bring together different perspectives, makes me thinm about stuff! It's still somehow interesting how our human need of classification is ever present is most everything that we do, but at the same time our need to escape from it.
I really hate the way things are so shallow. I want to be pulled into a book and I don't come up for air till the end of the book. All the books now are rammed up under "romantasy" and I am cringing... I like to discover well-written books. I love characters who are so adorable with depth and so worth my time. I don't mind retold stories if done well... I just don't like badly researched stories with insta-relationships and rushed endings.