Changing a character's defining characteristic is hard to swallow without some good writing to back it up. But the problem I have is that for decades we have read a character's literal thoughts and seen them operating when no one but the reader is watching, so to make as though they were a sleeper agent or had some other personality defining characteristic that they were not acknowledging to themselves or in private, is a hard pill to swallow.
Pancakes And Bacon well, according to the retcon, his memories of being HYDRA were only awakened upon being de-aged by Kobik. Before then, he truly believed he was a hero. Which makes the retcon even more stupid.
@@billbutton8468 that's not a sleeper agent that's a "Manchurian agent". Sleeper agents just go under deep cover and don't communicate with their handlers till they're needed many years later. A Manchurian agent is what you're thinking of. They don't know they're an agent.
I was around for Hydra Cap. I remember the creator doubling down greatly and just being an awful person. The biggest problem that I saw was the Nazi connection and a character created by Jewish creators to express their frustrations with America and the lack of involvement in WWII (at the time).. and yes people tried to argue away the Nazi aspect, but it's honestly splitting hairs.
Cap is the Marvel equivalent of Superman. He is the unchanging center around which all the other characters swirl with change. Trying to change Captain America (or Superman) is basically admitting that your entire universe of characters are out of ideas and it all needs to go in the blender. Have a new origin or retcon for Spider-man? Have him meet Steve Rogers. The newness of Spidey will stand out against the 80 years of Steve. Want to give a boost to a minority hero? Team him up with Steve Rogers. Obviously. Want to question the excess of your governments billion dollars of tax payer dollars earmarked for top secret projects with little or no oversight? Read Captain America from 1987-88. Cap does not change, so the Marvel Universe CAN change.
Spidey had a similar retcon in the 90s Clone Saga where the readers were told that the Peter Parker we had been reading since the 1970s was the clone and Ben Reilly was the real Peter Parker. Marvel's sales numbers during this time were way down except for the Clone Saga - it was the only thing with great sales numbers. But that revelation turned off a lot of long-term readers - to be told that the character they'd been reading for 20 years wasn't the real Spidey.
Nick Spencer can be a good writer (Amazing Spider-Man is an indicator of how good he can be). But I feel like Secret Empire on the whole was a botched move for a couple reasons. So Marvel will use Hydra pretty frequently as stand-ins for Nazis, biggest example of the top of my head is in Earth's Mightiest Heroes, where its Cap Origin Episode has no mention the party, using Hydra instead (Which was the concession by the studio so the Howling Commandos could have period accurate weapons. TV is weird, they could only have one or the other). My point is Hydra is always be synonymous with the Nazis, especially given the MCU's iterations started as an SS offshoot. Then everyone at Marvel started actively going "Yeah but they aren't Nazi's tho" when they were getting flack for the Hydra Cap thing. Repeatedly throwing in retcon after retcon (I'm aware these retcons started way before, but it's plain cowardice I think. Commit Marvel) to distance themselves from that connection. Despite making that connection themselves, as I said, the two are synonymous, and due to the MCU it's never going away. Made worse when Hydra Caps Avengers team included Scarlet Witch as a member. Because including a Jewish-Romani (Even if you respond that she's not Magneto's daughter anymore...she and Pietro are still irrefutably Romani) character in your faux Nazi's Superteam isn't completely offensive or anything. Most assuredly not. Not enough people called Nick out for this at the time, but I'm going to right now. That really doesn't sit well with me. As for Secret Empire itself...I dropped the book around the time Hologram Tony, and Hydra Cap had dinner with Ultron, it was such boring goddamn read, and kind of ugly. Andrea Sorrentino's work on Jeff Lemires run of Old Man Logan was top notch, not sure what happened with Secret Empire, it looked horrible.
I can't remember if it was in the comics or the movies (or both) but I remember the push to say "Hydra was never Nazis". Which is why I appreciated that Agents of SHIELD went out of their way to have their characters say "Yeah, Hydra are Nazis, and don't you forget that."
@@jhornacek I think the comics they tried to have it be Hydra is an ancient cult? But it really doesn't mean much. Red Skull ran around with a swastika on his costume for years (To the point in a Bat/Cap crossover, Joker flat out turned on Skull, because Joker hates Nazis), and he's the face of the whole organization.
Sasha, you just won't let people forget that Hydra Cap was the original Captain America from the very beginning! I appreciate that. Now we have a Cosmic Cube spin off lol
I dropped Marvel entirely over it for awhile because DC Rebirth gave me the alternative I wanted. To me it seemed like astoundingly stupid timing on the part of Marvel to run with Hydra Cap right when DC was giving some DC fans what we wanted after the New 52 era fizzled out.
Mikhail G DC’s version of Hail Hydra: make a beloved character and the supposed heart of the dc universe an unhinged mass murderer with untreated ptsd 😔
As much hate as Nick Spencer got for this, most of my anger was with Marvel's editorial staff. They are the ones who are supposed to protect the legacy and legitimacy of its characters. There is No Excuse when you think about all the Jewish writers and artists involved in Cap's history to run with this deeply flawed idea. This is what put me off reading Marvel books for months (however long it lasted).
THIS! Also, how was no one at Marvel thinking about the impact this would have on Jewish readers? Jewish kids who looked up to Captain America suddenly found out that their hero wanted them to be murdered. Especially considering America has the 2nd-highest Jewish population in the world (and Captain America likely means more to Americans than kids of other countries), there were a LOT of Jewish kids being told by this story that their hero wanted them and their families dead in a ditch.
Nick Spencer got hate for this not because of the stories and what not, but because he was such a jerk on social and treated people so badly for legitimately criticizing the direction and feeling hurt by it. Marvel editors green light the idea, they didn't green light Spencer's responses.
It was almost like Bilbo Baggins saying "Hail Smaug!" I had a feeling when it came out that they were going to retcon Hyrda Cap in some way, just not in the way that they did. I have to admit that Marvel's story on how it cam about and how it was resolved was original.
As an Agent Coulson cosplay, so likely personalizing a bit too much, I hated this story-line. 180'ing Cap did not serve well for such an icon. The meme of course was constantly pushed in my face, cus what's funnier than a character (Coulson) having his idol crushed? It wasn't until Endgame that I came to peace with the meme, cus that was a wonderful set up.
Hydra Cap is an interesting idea. An idea that really should have been explored elsewhere like a What If comic so Nick Spencer could do whatever he wanted. Instead it was placed into main continuity so sloppily that everything that has ever been written about Cap feels pointless. For anyone new to comics at the time, this probably would have been an okay place to start because it retcons everything, and I think those are the people most fond of Hydra Cap. Anyway it doesn't matter anymore because Marvel decided to do some messed up time wimy reality BS and bring back Good Cap.
The problem was they lead with that reveal instead of fleshing it out better beforehand. If you read Steve Roger's comic it was anything but sloppy, probably the best Cap story I have ever read.
@@jotaux3652 They couldn't have fleshed it out before. The point was that it was a huge reveal. What they could have done was build up to the reveal. I imagine it like this: each issue we would see a few dark panels of dialogue. The panels become less and less dark until its very clearly a Hydra agent with a shadowy figure. Finally after lots of issues its revealed that it was Captain America. And this time instead of the cosmic cube mischief, we learn that Steve was slowly being brainwashed. I would prefer that storyline, because not only is the reveal shocking, but we get rid of the cosmic cube mess that as I said above is sloppy. Also if you respond back, could you please answer why you think this is the best Captain America story you have ever read?
I know they did it for meta reasons but imagine if one of your friends turned out to be an evil Nazi the whole time and instead learning to move on and accept it, you reach into an alternate timeline to replace them with a version of him that isn’t racist.
@@artemiswolf4508 Oh. Originally, I thought you were criticizing the lack of free will in the solution. Like saying it would be bad to do that or something. Idk
I can see what he was trying to do, but it is like Scrooge McDuck spending recklessly, Captain America from his first cover was anti Nazi, he punched Hitler! I think for something like Secret Empire, I would have for the free comic day have Red Skull visit the Cosmic Cube in like the last panel. So people know something is up. Another good example it's like you saying that you like Ric Grayson, or not liking his rear.
Personally speaking, I knew Red Skull was up to SOMETHING at the end of "Standoff", so his rewriting Cap's entire history isn't that much of a surprise. In fact, to put it in context, Schmidt's been trying this "if I can't beat you, you'll join me" bit ever since dying in his 'old-man' battle with Cap*: coming back in a body cloned from Steve's, trying to control Cap via the Commission, smearing Cap's rep through John Walker's antics, saving Steve from his deteriorating Super-Soldier serum only to try and trap him in a Cosmic Cube, and even phonying up 'evidence' of Cap's 'treason' that got Steve banned from America in the "Man Without A Country" storyarc. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he tried joining Steve's family next! 😊 *Some time back, Red Skull learned that the preservative that had kept him young since WWII was wearing off. So, determined to have one final battle with his arch-foe, he lured Cap in and injected him with an aging serum. The two fought, getting older and older all the while, until the Skull (seemingly) died. P.S. I would love to hear your thoughts on that fight. And on "Standoff". And more Cap content in general, please. Thank you! 😊
What's with villains cloning coming back in the body of their enemy, anyway? Red Skull in a Steve clone. The Emperor in a Luke clone. Seriously, if I'm going to die and have the technology to create a new clone body for myself, I want to come back in my own body. But the idea has inspired my reboot of Cap. The real Cap survived WWII (so did Bucky), but went kind of crazy. He was put in a home for awhile, but they found some medicine to make him better. He married Peggy, and they had a son. The son married, but they couldn't have children naturally. The Army wanted a new Cap, so they inserted Cap's DNA into eggs which they implanted in women, included Cap's daughter-in-law. Cap's cloned grandson is the new Cap. But another one of clones discovered he was a clone, and was mad that he wasn't chosen, so he become the new Red Skull. Oh, and the first time the Army tried to make a clone of Cap, it was artificially aged, and implanted with Cap's memories. When he found out he wasn't the real Cap, he went crazy and became the Grand Director.
I'm not even sure I noticed the memes at the time. I didn't know Chris had a pre-existing connection to the hail Hydra line in End game either. But it was still a great touch.
The Secret Empire arc almost destroyed my love of comics. I’ve been a Cap fan since I was 10 years old. Captain America Vol1 Issue #402 (The Capwolf arc) was the first comic I ever read, since then he’s been my favorite comic character. What Spencer did was the dumbest thing to happen since Bendis’ House of M arc. That being said, all the death threats Spencer got were really out of line. He didn’t deserve that, no one does for writing a comic book.
I remember that issue. It was another moment in which I said, “nope, completely out of character, I’m done.” (Another being the infamous end of One More Day which broke Spider-man for me until this day). It was probably the beginning of the end of my comics collecting. Now I just pick up trades, and most of those are collections of older comic stories.
God I forgot about the memes till you shared them. I'm pretty sure I laughed really hard at the Spider-Man one and did again. There was a whole list on tumblr at the time but also a LOT of angry people and when it first appeared some people were confused and even though they it would be retconned they were mad that it even happened in the first place. It was a lot to see.
Jesus God, I hated Hydra Cap. The whole concept of it was SUCH a bad idea. My personal low was getting into a very long Tumblr argument about how, yes, Hydra were actually Nazis in the comics. (The person arguing with me said they "weren't Nazis so Cap being Hydra was okay." Right.) And the U.S. Military was very, very upset as well, because they hold the ideal of Captain America in such high regard.
"Hail Bill Cipher" said Dipper with his uncle tied up next to him. - This was my favorite meme. For real tho, I think it wouldn't have recieve the backlash it had if they weren't tried to retcon Cap's story as being a Hydra soldier all along. You could said that it wouldn't had been as impactful, but there are ways to make that twist work better than what they did.
I wasn't really too active on social media at the time, and I also never read that initial reveal issue, so my initial experience basically boiled down to someone eventually saying "hey, did you know they made captain america a part of hydra?" and me going "really? huh, that's kinda weird". At the time, I never really looked into it, and also it actually had very little influence on other stories that were going on at the time, at least until later. I honestly hadn't even really 100% confirmed that it was actually happening, until suddenly the event was announced, and that was actually my moment of confirmation. So, after that, I ended up picking up the series and really enjoying it actually. I was thoroughly invested and satisfied by it, and I think the way it was introduced to me played a part in that.
I think it’s interesting looking at the reception for Hydra Cap and Secret Empire versus the Framework/Agents of HYDRA arc on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Both tackle a Hydra regime, but where SHIELD are the heroes trying to dethrone HYDRA, Cap is the villain at the top of HYDRA.
Sasha.. great recap. I am surprised though that you didn’t mention in that in all the hub bub Marvel comics issued this statement to fans: “At Marvel, we want to assure all of our fans that we hear your concerns about aligning Captain America with Hydra and we politely ask you to allow the story to unfold before coming to any conclusion,” And that “that the ‘passion’ of fans is what keeps the company moving forward and that ‘Captain America, will always be a cornerstone of the Marvel Universe who will stand up for what is right, and 'Secret Empire' will be the biggest challenge Steve has ever faced.’” Marvel knew it messed up.
Honestly, that actually makes it worse, because why create that kind of discouraging, divisive, infuriating betrayal of a storyline just to reassert the status quo afterwards (only with some great characters - like Black Widow(!) - dead)?
Hydra Cap concept art is very badass. I in general like "what if" concepts about heroes being vilians. It kinda shows how dangerous those heroes realy are if they choose to act in a way different than normal.
After eating crow with Superior Spider-Man being so good when my gut reaction was pure outrage, when this happened I decided to ride it out. And I immediately called that it was cosmic cube shenanigans and that's how it would be fixed. The idea of making the foe someone we've trusted all along and there's no better choice for that than Cap. It was chilling to read his actions after that even in other comics and seeing how he was manipulating people and nobody would even question it because it was Cap. Deadpool's reaction when everything was revealed was particularly heartbreaking. I will always step up to bat for this arc.
Even though I don't read comics and wasn't really a fan of Cap until MCU Civil War, I was very annoyed and confused, particularly after interviews immediately after the reveal stated it wasn't a doppelganger or mind control or anything like that. It really didn't make any in-universe sense; it was just a character destroying viral hype device, and could only be seen as a good one if you are someone who believes the old adage that there's no such thing as bad publicity. Again, I dont really follow comics beyond geek news that crosses my social media and watching videos such as this channel and Atop the Fourth Wall. I have watched Linkara's recent review of this story arc. The concept of having HYDRA Steve isn't inherently terrible. If they had gone with a different reason or re-written a much shorter span of time somehow, it wouldn't have felt so off. If they hadn't let him still be able to lift Mjollnir, it wouldn't have implied Marvel supporting the large segment of Odinists who are openly White Supremacists. If they hadn't let Steve take out every Marvel hero with relative ease until faced with a mirror match and instead let someone like Sam Wilson be the one to win the final battle with HYDRA Steve, the ending would have felt more satisfying. But ultimately it's practically a What If story with little of an arc to speak of that was shoehorned into main continuity by Macguffin shenanigans.
" particularly after interviews immediately after the reveal stated it wasn't a doppelganger or mind control or anything like that. I" No it was reality warping timey wimey bullshit instead! Because that's totally different!
"Captain America a Nazi? Are you kidding me? Jack [Kirby] is rolling in his grave. Joe Simon is going to rise up out of his grave and kill those people. That was so wrong because that was not anything like the original intent of the creators." - Jim Shooter (Former Marvel Editor in Chief)
I'd live to see your take on some stand-alone stories like Spider-Man's Something About a Gun or The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man, or the X-Men's God Loves, Man Kills. Stories that were contained in one issue or part of one issue. I also really really want to see your take on Assistant Editor's Month.
I enjoed the Hydra Cap plot and Secret Empire. I found it interesting the way they used the concept of Dog Whistling with Cap. This was most evident in Civil War 2 when Cap was shown to giving advice to people that might have sounded similar to what he would normally say, but was intended to be bad/divisive advice. Or when whe Sam takes the Shield after Hydra Caps reveal, botching a rescue and becoming a disgrace. He explains that he knew Sam didn't have the experience and skill to use it correctly and knew Sam would screw up.
For whatever reason, every time you do your Batman voice, I literally laugh out loud. "I shot my parents". Please, one day do a whole video in Batman's voice. I will give it a thumbs up :)
I remember when this happened and all the meme hype about it, but more importantly I remember the online furor. I didn't read Cap at that point and this came off (largely thanks to the media hype around it) as just that: a media stunt to get eyes on the new book. And this didn't surprise me a bit given how often both Marvel and DC have done 'reveals', retconning characters to have origins that happened 'off screen.' Being Australian, I wasn't caught up in the massively charged political space of 2016, but I could also see how such an iconic figure as Cap (especially so since Chris Evans' Cap was so well recieved and beloved) was at least in that moment in history almost sacrosanct. What was worse though was the writer standing behind it even though the actual story of the Cube changing reality was always the endgame. That was a dumb hill to die on and I'd argue it really hurt his career to do so.
I started reading comics in 1970 at about 6 years old. I would read my uncle's as he was only about 12 years older and the Fantastic Four, Doctor Strange and Captain America were regular titles in his stacks. I grew up thinking Steve Rogers was an ideal human being, an ideal man to be a goal for who I should be at my best. That never changed. When the hydra sleeper agent plot came out I was in a dry spell of not being able to afford comics, but I swore off buying Marvel at that point because it was clear to me that they valued sales over human values. Not my most eloquent, but that sums it well enough. Hail Casually Comics!
I effin loved Hydra cap. I think on the level of big themes, it demostrated the concept from arendt that if the ideal you're seeking is 'pure' enough, if the timeline given to acheive is long and complicated enough, you can be convinced to do horrible things. To paraphrase a different philosopher, totalitarianist ideology isn't something that allows bad people to do bad things, it's something that convinces GOOD people to do bad things.
I think Hydra Cap would be really good for a elseworld story or a alterative timeline. I think their biggest mistake was to put this story in the main contunity.
the whole hydra cap thing could've worked in theory but honestly i feel like that execution was really not that great and badly executed also those memes were super funny.
I didnt hated capitain Hydra cuz come on we knew he wasnt going to be captain hydra forever something was going to happen and retcon him as hydra. Btw great video as always 👍 and... 👂hail hydra
I was around, though not reading as many comics as I used to. I felt the story was one of those stories planned just to garner impact and call attention to the comics, taking advantage of how huge the MCU was getting. I mean, I was around for the death of Superman, I don't believe any big changes that comics present to established and popular characters anymore, everything tastes like a publicity stunt and often is. That being said, it does not necessarily diminish the value in those stories, they can be good or bad on their own, just that the whole buzz generated around these kinds of moments more often than not ends up pushing me away from reading them when they are just released. I guess I enjoy more seeing how they fix things, and if the fix is bad, I just let the whole story slide...
I did not know a about the history of hydra. Thank you. Oooh, and what is on your headband. That is one of my favorites! You should say what's on them ha, ha ha. Also, don't forget to wish Jonathan frakes a happy birthday today! Hail number one, and star trek: the next generation!
Hydra Cap and the event as a whole was just horrible. It was not just Cap that got trashed either. Thor followed Hydra Cap willingly just because Cap could lift his hammer. They destroyed and entire US city, and yet there was almost no follow up.
I’ve never read or heard about Captain Hydra but I think it would only work if the reason why Cap is/was a double agent is solid. It’s also an interesting spin on a character that is to me pretty one dimensional. Not that being one dimensional is a bad thing, I like the Cap the way he is but this is just as interesting “what if” to me. Thanks for making this video Sasha and introducing me to Captain Hydra.
My head canon is that the true Captain America is and always has been the guy who represents the ideals that American should strive for. Kubrik used her reality warping powers to create Hauptmann Hydra and put him in Captain America's body. When they extracted Captain America from the cosmic cube, they brought back the true Captain America and put him in a clone body so that Captain America could exist while allowing Hauptmann Hydra to stand trial. I don't know all the details, so there might be something that contradicts this that I don't know about, but this is what I'm sticking with to preserve my sanity, my love of Captain America, and my love of comics.
I thought the idea of Hydra Cap was great plot idea. I mean the shock value alone of the "Hail Hydra" panel was worth it. But the way they went about correcting it...was a tad too convoluted. But it had a big impact when Cap is you're YOUR hero...seeing him turned into a villain was really a gut punch.
This is why I keep my social media footprint small. Thank you, once again, for the detailed deep dive into WTF happened here. I kind of remember there was a lot of hub bub over The Falcon becoming Captain America. Steve Rogers turning out to be a Hydra agent seemed familiar to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this story done in the '80s? I remember Steve Rogers being cloned or something, and that clone turned out to be a Hydra Agent that was trying to make S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers re-think all of their history with Captain America and then throwing the real Steve Rogers in jail because he was framed? Great...now I have to go into the storage shed a look for the comics.
I know Red Skull spent a LOT of time in a Steve clone body, complete with his face for a long while. You may be mixing that up. He also thought he';d evolved beyond Naziism to a moral nihilism, backing all kinds of extremist groups from creeps pushing porn and drugs on children, to moralists burning down legal porn shops.
I like how you paid attention to several different contexts surrounding this comic and how the response to the comic evolved and influenced various media.
Sometime in highschool I realized the cyclical nature of stories in American comics. Writers try to do something different but the higher ups will only let the differences stay IF they are popular with fans and make money. Spider-Mans black and white costume was initially hated but then fans did a 180 and it was salvaged. I liked Hydra Cap because it was crafted well and it was different. I already knew it wouldn't stay that way because Cap is like Superman, the fans like him the way he is, changing him is risky. It was the same way when they tried to say Ben Reilly was the original Spidey and Peter Parker was the clone. Fans lost their shit and Marvel put their toys back the way they found them.
I never read the Captain Hydra/Secret Empire stories so my only Nick Spencer exposure at the time was to his Superior Foes of Spider-Man book, which was about Boomerang, Shocker, Overdrive, (female) Beetle and Speed Demon. You'd think a book about these C-list villains (and no Spidey) would be terrible but at the time not only was it the best Spidey-related book Marvel was putting out, it was one of the best Marvel books period. Definitely the funniest - highly recommended. For example, Silvermane (the mobster turned cyborg) gets his head cut off. But because he's a cyborg the head is still alive. Shocker has it so he keeps it at his apartment and puts it in a toy electric car so Silvermane can drive himself around. At one point the head even gets disguised as Starchild from KISS. The book is just hilarious - so sad it didn't make it past 17 issues.
My head cannon, which is still full of holes, is that the Cosmic Cube girl destroyed the Ultimate Universe and switched the Ultimates with the 616 versions. It brought the more jingoistic Captain America, the more Aryan aligned Norse Thor, the back to being a drunk Stark, the more monstrous and addicted Hulk, and the jerk and wife-beater Hank Pym (who got melded with Ultron) to be used instead of the good people we know and love. And, if it weren't for the Cosmic Ultimates team fighting the Maker, who pulled the Ultimates from his universe out to fight, then killed Captain America himself, it would have worked, too. it would also explain why Wasp is alive again and dating fake Tony Stark.
Hey, hey Sasha, hey, do a Sharon Carter video, Please. Also, man I hated this story line, but I picked up every issue because I just couldn't stop reading it. It was like that impulse to slow down and look at a highway accident.
Love the channel Sasha. Not sure if you’ve ever heard of it but there was a series back in the late 90s from DC called Vext that I would love to see you cover. It was written by Keith Griffin and it follows the adventures of DC’s god of misfortune. I don’t know if it would be a “You’re sleeping on...” video because it got cancelled after 6 issues over 20 years ago, but maybe a “You slept on...” title is more appropriate. Very funny read if you can find it.
When I first heard the hydra cap I said ok maybe alternate version. When it turned to be cap cap what instant anger and some how I felt a little kid creep out of no where give me the finger. Then kicked me in the face. Hail hydra
I do have strong feelings about Captain America, although not entirely sure why. I never really read his comics. I had seen him in the nineteen nineties movie, a bit of his old cartoon from the sixties, and his appearance in the nineties Spider-man cartoon. There was also what I learned by looking him up both in books and on-line. I'm sharing this to point out that I'm not one of the bigger fans, but I was one of the people who was incredibly upset over the matter. A part of it was because it was a massive change, and one that was putting the character in league with what had been his enemies since his conception. The bigger issue, for me at least, was that I KNEW it was not going to stay that way. That they would bring classic Steve Rogers Captain America back. That it was something they were doing to create shock in order to get people to pick up and read the comics. Probably in less than a year. I'm going to stop there before I start ranting about comics as a whole.
Actually the Ultimate universe has been back for a while now. At the end of the Spider-men 2 (2018) mini series they reveal that the Ultimate Universe has been restored. More recently It was featured in the Venom series (2020). It featured The Maker, Ultimate Reed Richards, traveling back to his home Universe to cause some trouble
One word: Kobik. "Her" storyline is fundamentally intertwined with Standoff ant the whole Hydra Cap thing. Standoff was all about rewriting the personalities of others, all made possible by Cosmic Cube shards, which "hatched" into Kobik. Worth looking very closely at that whole thing. Love your videos, especially the old history stuff!
Intent and context matter. The writer of that arc didn't give a damn about the readers or about Steve Rogers. His intent was clearly stated and often repeated. That intent provided me enough context to despise the man, the company for which he worked, and the apologists that followed in his wake. Outside of his intent, the arc could've been interesting and intriguing, if a little sloppily written. Unfortunately, once you learn the writer's intent, you can't unlearn it.
I still legit love Secret Empire, because it had actually something to say about corruption of a legacy, and trusting that corrupt ideal since you knew it before the change. One thing I wasn't a fan of was a detail of the ending, I get getting a OG Cap, but the way it was done STILL confuses people you think he's not real, and HYRDA Cap was. It's been some time, and Cap is facing the aftermath in the Ta-Nehesi Coates run, which I also love. (Also Cap's return costume in Secret Empire was s major drip, one of my faves)
If you’re coming at it from the perspective of someone who didn’t appreciate the character, especially the moral foundations of that character, then I can see where you’re coming from, and why you would appreciate TNC’s take on him. However, if you did appreciate that character and have followed that character, you’d recognize how out OOC this whole thing was and remains even after the OG-restore. Normally, “corruption of a legacy” turns out to be about the character being a creature of their time, and thus not up to the ideals of ours. That might have been interesting but this wasn’t that. This was a retcon to make him evil while keeping his entire history of thought and action which displayed anything but. It was just dumb. Destructive and dumb.
@@keoghanwhimsically2268 I mean, it wasn't... They literally give a reason why and how it happened for the story, and makes perfect sense, plus, it was never gonna be permanent, it was just for that story.
I enjoy Hail Hydra as a meme, but I cannot forgive Spencer for making Cap into a Nazi. The issue was not that he "converted" Cap into an "evil twin," they did that in Axis and it was fine. The issue was that he tried to JUSTIFY this change, not just make it "a wizard did it," but actually lay out a storyline in the past that attempted to say *"IF* this had been Steve's life, he _would have chosen_ to be a Nazi. That is just anathema to what makes Steve Rogers work as a character. Steve Rogers is the character who even if everyone around him is a Nazi, he never would be. Ever. They even covered this in Secret Wars only a few months earlier!
It's probably because I'm not American or that I never read a lot of Captain America comics to actually be attached to the character, I was really introduced to Cap in the 2000s cartoons and the MCU, but I was never really triggered or even bothered by the Hydra Cap story even back then. I read the _Captain America: Steve Rogers_ comic to see all the hubub, it was immediately explained in the next issues that the Red Skull used the Cosmic Cube to alter Steve's history to make him a HYDRA agent the whole time. Taking that in mind, I rationalized it all that it essentially a Brainwashing plot taken to the next level. The Red Skull essentially brainwashed Cap into thinking he was a Hydra agent, he just used the Cosmic Cube to do it by altering his life as well. So it's like an in-universe retcon but never meant to change the 50+years(70 if you count the 40s) of history to the character. It's like the plot of Back to the Future 2 where Biff changed the past, the 50s, to alter the then-present day 80s. Everyone's lives changed but did not affect the present day selves of Marty, Doc, and Jennifer, only their histories did. Like you said Sasha, this was never going to be permanent and they always intended to bring back the real Steve Rogers. This was really a setup for the Secret Empire storyline, but I guess it was poorly received due to the political climate at the time. But that's my opinion and rationale to all this.
at this point I think right around the time when cap became old man cap was when I was getting out of Avengers style comics I did not like Captain Falcon I was just growing to love Falcon from the movies and and they pushed Captain Falcon on everybody so hard I even remember when they dumped him in Luke Cage's Avengers i was like isn't he supposed to be a world-saving hero not a street-level
I never really read Captain America books but remember it being quite the story at the time and laughing at the sidelines from the idea itself and the memes that it stemmed although I never appreciated how much Cap fans truly hated it and how it was all caught up in the toxicity that was 2016
For me the mental gymnastics aren’t hard simply because the history was changed from what it was with the Cosmic Cube iirc. So Cap wasn’t “always evil.” He was still good in all those stories and had some time travel shenanigans applied later.
Three things: 1) I never understood the hate that came out of "Hydra Cap". It was a Cosmic Cube story and anyone that reads comics knows that that is a time when the writers are going to do some wacky, weird stuff because by it's very nature, it's not going to stick. I guess that was a time when a lot of new readers were filtering in after watching the MCU movies and just didn't know that Cosmic Cube stories equals it's not going to stick. The thing rewrites history and at the end, they always reverse it. Anyway...2) Nick Spencer is doing a good run right now over in Fantastic Four. I know people hate his Spidey and Cap runs, but I at least think he's done a good job of getting the Fantastic Four back to their roots after all the damage Marvel did to their fighting over the Fox rights. Finally...3) The Ultimate Universe is officially back! Check out new issues of Venom! Starting with #26, although there is some setup throughout the series. The Ultimate Reed Richards, the Maker, has opened a gate back to that universe and although it's extremely damaged, it's still there. Donny Cates' run on Venom has been awesome, so it's worth the read, anyway!
When I saw this in "Captain America", I said to myself, "WTF???" I believed that this had to be a "Cap Is Brainwashed" storyline, and that other characters in the story arc would have to rescue him. But, I guess, the story got politicized in a Presidential Election year, and it got messed up. It is going to take some time, and new Marvel management and writers, to clean up this continuity mess.
Hi Sasha! Soooooo, I may be wrong about the official status of the story but I'm pretty sure the Ultimate Universe has been back since the Spider-Men II mini from 2018. Don't get me wrong it's not a good book, per say, but it ends with a glimpse of the Ultimates (including, if I remember correctly, what seems to be Peter Parker/Spidy and his female clone Jessica Drew/Spider-Woman) implying to the reader the existence of a fully restored Ultimate Universe.
Daredevil saying he could see the whole time had me die laughing.
I'm looking up some of those memes now: "You CAN see me!" from John Cena ham ROTFL!!
The Daredevil and John Cena were in my shitposting rotation for sure. Yet nothing beats Burt and Ernie version
My favorite cap hydra meme was a cross with a snickers meme. Has someone tossing cap a snickers saying “you’re Hydra when you’re hungry.”
Changing a character's defining characteristic is hard to swallow without some good writing to back it up. But the problem I have is that for decades we have read a character's literal thoughts and seen them operating when no one but the reader is watching, so to make as though they were a sleeper agent or had some other personality defining characteristic that they were not acknowledging to themselves or in private, is a hard pill to swallow.
Pancakes And Bacon well, according to the retcon, his memories of being HYDRA were only awakened upon being de-aged by Kobik. Before then, he truly believed he was a hero. Which makes the retcon even more stupid.
That's the point of a sleeper agent though. They don't know about it either
@@billbutton8468 that's not a sleeper agent that's a "Manchurian agent".
Sleeper agents just go under deep cover and don't communicate with their handlers till they're needed many years later.
A Manchurian agent is what you're thinking of. They don't know they're an agent.
@@Theduckwebcomics well isnt that what happened to cap?
Its like when iron man was revealed to be a traitor in the 90s
I was around for Hydra Cap. I remember the creator doubling down greatly and just being an awful person. The biggest problem that I saw was the Nazi connection and a character created by Jewish creators to express their frustrations with America and the lack of involvement in WWII (at the time).. and yes people tried to argue away the Nazi aspect, but it's honestly splitting hairs.
Cap is the Marvel equivalent of Superman. He is the unchanging center around which all the other characters swirl with change. Trying to change Captain America (or Superman) is basically admitting that your entire universe of characters are out of ideas and it all needs to go in the blender.
Have a new origin or retcon for Spider-man? Have him meet Steve Rogers. The newness of Spidey will stand out against the 80 years of Steve. Want to give a boost to a minority hero? Team him up with Steve Rogers. Obviously.
Want to question the excess of your governments billion dollars of tax payer dollars earmarked for top secret projects with little or no oversight? Read Captain America from 1987-88.
Cap does not change, so the Marvel Universe CAN change.
Spidey had a similar retcon in the 90s Clone Saga where the readers were told that the Peter Parker we had been reading since the 1970s was the clone and Ben Reilly was the real Peter Parker.
Marvel's sales numbers during this time were way down except for the Clone Saga - it was the only thing with great sales numbers. But that revelation turned off a lot of long-term readers - to be told that the character they'd been reading for 20 years wasn't the real Spidey.
Nick Spencer can be a good writer (Amazing Spider-Man is an indicator of how good he can be). But I feel like Secret Empire on the whole was a botched move for a couple reasons.
So Marvel will use Hydra pretty frequently as stand-ins for Nazis, biggest example of the top of my head is in Earth's Mightiest Heroes, where its Cap Origin Episode has no mention the party, using Hydra instead (Which was the concession by the studio so the Howling Commandos could have period accurate weapons. TV is weird, they could only have one or the other). My point is Hydra is always be synonymous with the Nazis, especially given the MCU's iterations started as an SS offshoot.
Then everyone at Marvel started actively going "Yeah but they aren't Nazi's tho" when they were getting flack for the Hydra Cap thing. Repeatedly throwing in retcon after retcon (I'm aware these retcons started way before, but it's plain cowardice I think. Commit Marvel) to distance themselves from that connection. Despite making that connection themselves, as I said, the two are synonymous, and due to the MCU it's never going away. Made worse when Hydra Caps Avengers team included Scarlet Witch as a member. Because including a Jewish-Romani (Even if you respond that she's not Magneto's daughter anymore...she and Pietro are still irrefutably Romani) character in your faux Nazi's Superteam isn't completely offensive or anything. Most assuredly not. Not enough people called Nick out for this at the time, but I'm going to right now. That really doesn't sit well with me.
As for Secret Empire itself...I dropped the book around the time Hologram Tony, and Hydra Cap had dinner with Ultron, it was such boring goddamn read, and kind of ugly. Andrea Sorrentino's work on Jeff Lemires run of Old Man Logan was top notch, not sure what happened with Secret Empire, it looked horrible.
Yeah I agree, it was stupid how Marvel was trying to play it off that they were never Nazis, even though it was stated in previous Marvel continuity.
I can't remember if it was in the comics or the movies (or both) but I remember the push to say "Hydra was never Nazis". Which is why I appreciated that Agents of SHIELD went out of their way to have their characters say "Yeah, Hydra are Nazis, and don't you forget that."
@@jhornacek I think the comics they tried to have it be Hydra is an ancient cult? But it really doesn't mean much. Red Skull ran around with a swastika on his costume for years (To the point in a Bat/Cap crossover, Joker flat out turned on Skull, because Joker hates Nazis), and he's the face of the whole organization.
Sasha, you just won't let people forget that Hydra Cap was the original Captain America from the very beginning! I appreciate that. Now we have a Cosmic Cube spin off lol
I dropped Marvel entirely over it for awhile because DC Rebirth gave me the alternative I wanted.
To me it seemed like astoundingly stupid timing on the part of Marvel to run with Hydra Cap right when DC was giving some DC fans what we wanted after the New 52 era fizzled out.
Mikhail G DC’s version of Hail Hydra: make a beloved character and the supposed heart of the dc universe an unhinged mass murderer with untreated ptsd 😔
Taylor Nunnelee Eh, Rebirth was kind of a bit too safe for me (which I suppose is good after the oddities of the New 52, but still).
I miss rebirth
As much hate as Nick Spencer got for this, most of my anger was with Marvel's editorial staff. They are the ones who are supposed to protect the legacy and legitimacy of its characters. There is No Excuse when you think about all the Jewish writers and artists involved in Cap's history to run with this deeply flawed idea. This is what put me off reading Marvel books for months (however long it lasted).
THIS! Also, how was no one at Marvel thinking about the impact this would have on Jewish readers? Jewish kids who looked up to Captain America suddenly found out that their hero wanted them to be murdered. Especially considering America has the 2nd-highest Jewish population in the world (and Captain America likely means more to Americans than kids of other countries), there were a LOT of Jewish kids being told by this story that their hero wanted them and their families dead in a ditch.
that's a really good point
Marvel Editorial has had recurring issues for decades, but I'd say they've been rudderless since 2002.
@@ghartman56 On the upside I don't think a lot of kids, jewish or otherwise read comics these days.
Nick Spencer got hate for this not because of the stories and what not, but because he was such a jerk on social and treated people so badly for legitimately criticizing the direction and feeling hurt by it. Marvel editors green light the idea, they didn't green light Spencer's responses.
It was almost like Bilbo Baggins saying "Hail Smaug!"
I had a feeling when it came out that they were going to retcon Hyrda Cap in some way, just not in the way that they did. I have to admit that Marvel's story on how it cam about and how it was resolved was original.
Hail Smaug! now that is a meme I want to see. lol
As an Agent Coulson cosplay, so likely personalizing a bit too much, I hated this story-line. 180'ing Cap did not serve well for such an icon. The meme of course was constantly pushed in my face, cus what's funnier than a character (Coulson) having his idol crushed? It wasn't until Endgame that I came to peace with the meme, cus that was a wonderful set up.
Hydra Cap is an interesting idea. An idea that really should have been explored elsewhere like a What If comic so Nick Spencer could do whatever he wanted. Instead it was placed into main continuity so sloppily that everything that has ever been written about Cap feels pointless. For anyone new to comics at the time, this probably would have been an okay place to start because it retcons everything, and I think those are the people most fond of Hydra Cap. Anyway it doesn't matter anymore because Marvel decided to do some messed up time wimy reality BS and bring back Good Cap.
The problem was they lead with that reveal instead of fleshing it out better beforehand. If you read Steve Roger's comic it was anything but sloppy, probably the best Cap story I have ever read.
@@jotaux3652 They couldn't have fleshed it out before. The point was that it was a huge reveal. What they could have done was build up to the reveal. I imagine it like this: each issue we would see a few dark panels of dialogue. The panels become less and less dark until its very clearly a Hydra agent with a shadowy figure. Finally after lots of issues its revealed that it was Captain America. And this time instead of the cosmic cube mischief, we learn that Steve was slowly being brainwashed. I would prefer that storyline, because not only is the reveal shocking, but we get rid of the cosmic cube mess that as I said above is sloppy. Also if you respond back, could you please answer why you think this is the best Captain America story you have ever read?
My favorite meme during all of that was when Kajima said "Hail Konami". I still laugh at that one.
I know they did it for meta reasons but imagine if one of your friends turned out to be an evil Nazi the whole time and instead learning to move on and accept it, you reach into an alternate timeline to replace them with a version of him that isn’t racist.
But Cap's history was replaced by the Tesseract make him a Nazi in the first place
4 4 Yeah I know and then he was replaced by an alternate dimension version of himself. That’s what I said in my comment
@@artemiswolf4508 Oh. Originally, I thought you were criticizing the lack of free will in the solution. Like saying it would be bad to do that or something. Idk
I can see what he was trying to do, but it is like Scrooge McDuck spending recklessly, Captain America from his first cover was anti Nazi, he punched Hitler! I think for something like Secret Empire, I would have for the free comic day have Red Skull visit the Cosmic Cube in like the last panel. So people know something is up.
Another good example it's like you saying that you like Ric Grayson, or not liking his rear.
Personally speaking, I knew Red Skull was up to SOMETHING at the end of "Standoff", so his rewriting Cap's entire history isn't that much of a surprise. In fact, to put it in context, Schmidt's been trying this "if I can't beat you, you'll join me" bit ever since dying in his 'old-man' battle with Cap*: coming back in a body cloned from Steve's, trying to control Cap via the Commission, smearing Cap's rep through John Walker's antics, saving Steve from his deteriorating Super-Soldier serum only to try and trap him in a Cosmic Cube, and even phonying up 'evidence' of Cap's 'treason' that got Steve banned from America in the "Man Without A Country" storyarc. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he tried joining Steve's family next! 😊
*Some time back, Red Skull learned that the preservative that had kept him young since WWII was wearing off. So, determined to have one final battle with his arch-foe, he lured Cap in and injected him with an aging serum. The two fought, getting older and older all the while, until the Skull (seemingly) died.
P.S. I would love to hear your thoughts on that fight. And on "Standoff". And more Cap content in general, please. Thank you! 😊
What's with villains cloning coming back in the body of their enemy, anyway? Red Skull in a Steve clone. The Emperor in a Luke clone. Seriously, if I'm going to die and have the technology to create a new clone body for myself, I want to come back in my own body.
But the idea has inspired my reboot of Cap. The real Cap survived WWII (so did Bucky), but went kind of crazy. He was put in a home for awhile, but they found some medicine to make him better. He married Peggy, and they had a son. The son married, but they couldn't have children naturally. The Army wanted a new Cap, so they inserted Cap's DNA into eggs which they implanted in women, included Cap's daughter-in-law. Cap's cloned grandson is the new Cap. But another one of clones discovered he was a clone, and was mad that he wasn't chosen, so he become the new Red Skull. Oh, and the first time the Army tried to make a clone of Cap, it was artificially aged, and implanted with Cap's memories. When he found out he wasn't the real Cap, he went crazy and became the Grand Director.
I'm not even sure I noticed the memes at the time. I didn't know Chris had a pre-existing connection to the hail Hydra line in End game either. But it was still a great touch.
The Secret Empire arc almost destroyed my love of comics. I’ve been a Cap fan since I was 10 years old. Captain America Vol1 Issue #402 (The Capwolf arc) was the first comic I ever read, since then he’s been my favorite comic character. What Spencer did was the dumbest thing to happen since Bendis’ House of M arc. That being said, all the death threats Spencer got were really out of line. He didn’t deserve that, no one does for writing a comic book.
My favorite meme was "Hail Soggies" with Captain Crunch.
As much as I dislike Hyrda Cap, it's Casually Comics so I'll watch 🤷🏾♂️
Exactly!
I remember that issue. It was another moment in which I said, “nope, completely out of character, I’m done.” (Another being the infamous end of One More Day which broke Spider-man for me until this day). It was probably the beginning of the end of my comics collecting. Now I just pick up trades, and most of those are collections of older comic stories.
God I forgot about the memes till you shared them. I'm pretty sure I laughed really hard at the Spider-Man one and did again. There was a whole list on tumblr at the time but also a LOT of angry people and when it first appeared some people were confused and even though they it would be retconned they were mad that it even happened in the first place. It was a lot to see.
Thank you for this. I’m more of a DC fan, but I enjoyed this nonetheless.
Jesus God, I hated Hydra Cap. The whole concept of it was SUCH a bad idea. My personal low was getting into a very long Tumblr argument about how, yes, Hydra were actually Nazis in the comics. (The person arguing with me said they "weren't Nazis so Cap being Hydra was okay." Right.) And the U.S. Military was very, very upset as well, because they hold the ideal of Captain America in such high regard.
No. The point was that they were Nazis. And it's badass when he reclaims his history at the end
I got into a similar argument on youtube with someone saying Hydra were not nazis.
@@blackrazer22 Nevermind the fact Hydra leaders were literally Nazis or related to Nazis
@@ranwolf7650 I was surprised how many people did not know or acknowledge that..
Hydra are Nazis in origin.
1:10 "Casually Hydra" confirmed.
"Hail Bill Cipher" said Dipper with his uncle tied up next to him. - This was my favorite meme.
For real tho, I think it wouldn't have recieve the backlash it had if they weren't tried to retcon Cap's story as being a Hydra soldier all along. You could said that it wouldn't had been as impactful, but there are ways to make that twist work better than what they did.
/me whispers "Hail Sasha"
I remember when this happened. Ahhh the debates of 2016
Batman saying he shot his parents was pretty fun.
There's probably an Elseworld where that happened
Fascinating but you totally glossed over Cap's butt .
Well it is America's butt.
Endgame:
Cap goes in the elevator:
Me: fight fight fight.
Cap: Hail Hydra.
Me: Fanboy noises.
Same
This was the best use of Cap saying Hail Hydra ever. The looks on their faces!!
I was expecting a repeat of the winter solider
I wasn't really too active on social media at the time, and I also never read that initial reveal issue, so my initial experience basically boiled down to someone eventually saying "hey, did you know they made captain america a part of hydra?" and me going "really? huh, that's kinda weird". At the time, I never really looked into it, and also it actually had very little influence on other stories that were going on at the time, at least until later. I honestly hadn't even really 100% confirmed that it was actually happening, until suddenly the event was announced, and that was actually my moment of confirmation. So, after that, I ended up picking up the series and really enjoying it actually. I was thoroughly invested and satisfied by it, and I think the way it was introduced to me played a part in that.
You could have worn your green wig and become Madam Hydra.
I think it’s interesting looking at the reception for Hydra Cap and Secret Empire versus the Framework/Agents of HYDRA arc on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Both tackle a Hydra regime, but where SHIELD are the heroes trying to dethrone HYDRA, Cap is the villain at the top of HYDRA.
Sasha.. great recap. I am surprised though that you didn’t mention in that in all the hub bub Marvel comics issued this statement to fans:
“At Marvel, we want to assure all of our fans that we hear your concerns about aligning Captain America with Hydra and we politely ask you to allow the story to unfold before coming to any conclusion,”
And that “that the ‘passion’ of fans is what keeps the company moving forward and that ‘Captain America, will always be a cornerstone of the Marvel Universe who will stand up for what is right, and 'Secret Empire' will be the biggest challenge Steve has ever faced.’”
Marvel knew it messed up.
Honestly, that actually makes it worse, because why create that kind of discouraging, divisive, infuriating betrayal of a storyline just to reassert the status quo afterwards (only with some great characters - like Black Widow(!) - dead)?
@@taste_is_sweet I mean, they did bring her back but only sort of.
Hydra Cap concept art is very badass. I in general like "what if" concepts about heroes being vilians. It kinda shows how dangerous those heroes realy are if they choose to act in a way different than normal.
First Linkara and now you? The discourse is ripe again. I’m here for it.
Whenever I think of "Hail Hydra" memes, the one that stands out to me was Cap saying "Hamburgers are Sandwiches".
After eating crow with Superior Spider-Man being so good when my gut reaction was pure outrage, when this happened I decided to ride it out. And I immediately called that it was cosmic cube shenanigans and that's how it would be fixed. The idea of making the foe someone we've trusted all along and there's no better choice for that than Cap. It was chilling to read his actions after that even in other comics and seeing how he was manipulating people and nobody would even question it because it was Cap. Deadpool's reaction when everything was revealed was particularly heartbreaking. I will always step up to bat for this arc.
Even though I don't read comics and wasn't really a fan of Cap until MCU Civil War, I was very annoyed and confused, particularly after interviews immediately after the reveal stated it wasn't a doppelganger or mind control or anything like that. It really didn't make any in-universe sense; it was just a character destroying viral hype device, and could only be seen as a good one if you are someone who believes the old adage that there's no such thing as bad publicity.
Again, I dont really follow comics beyond geek news that crosses my social media and watching videos such as this channel and Atop the Fourth Wall. I have watched Linkara's recent review of this story arc. The concept of having HYDRA Steve isn't inherently terrible. If they had gone with a different reason or re-written a much shorter span of time somehow, it wouldn't have felt so off. If they hadn't let him still be able to lift Mjollnir, it wouldn't have implied Marvel supporting the large segment of Odinists who are openly White Supremacists. If they hadn't let Steve take out every Marvel hero with relative ease until faced with a mirror match and instead let someone like Sam Wilson be the one to win the final battle with HYDRA Steve, the ending would have felt more satisfying. But ultimately it's practically a What If story with little of an arc to speak of that was shoehorned into main continuity by Macguffin shenanigans.
" particularly after interviews immediately after the reveal stated it wasn't a doppelganger or mind control or anything like that. I"
No it was reality warping timey wimey bullshit instead! Because that's totally different!
"Captain America a Nazi? Are you kidding me? Jack [Kirby] is rolling in his grave. Joe Simon is going to rise up out of his grave and kill those people. That was so wrong because that was not anything like the original intent of the creators." - Jim Shooter (Former Marvel Editor in Chief)
Kirby would be the first to punch Nazi Cap in the face.
Oh yeah, the Snydering of Cap, I remember that crap. When do we get the eyebrow scar origin? I apologize if it's still too painful.
I'd live to see your take on some stand-alone stories like Spider-Man's Something About a Gun or The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man, or the X-Men's God Loves, Man Kills. Stories that were contained in one issue or part of one issue. I also really really want to see your take on Assistant Editor's Month.
I enjoed the Hydra Cap plot and Secret Empire. I found it interesting the way they used the concept of Dog Whistling with Cap. This was most evident in Civil War 2 when Cap was shown to giving advice to people that might have sounded similar to what he would normally say, but was intended to be bad/divisive advice. Or when whe Sam takes the Shield after Hydra Caps reveal, botching a rescue and becoming a disgrace. He explains that he knew Sam didn't have the experience and skill to use it correctly and knew Sam would screw up.
For whatever reason, every time you do your Batman voice, I literally laugh out loud. "I shot my parents". Please, one day do a whole video in Batman's voice. I will give it a thumbs up :)
I remember when this happened and all the meme hype about it, but more importantly I remember the online furor.
I didn't read Cap at that point and this came off (largely thanks to the media hype around it) as just that: a media stunt to get eyes on the new book. And this didn't surprise me a bit given how often both Marvel and DC have done 'reveals', retconning characters to have origins that happened 'off screen.'
Being Australian, I wasn't caught up in the massively charged political space of 2016, but I could also see how such an iconic figure as Cap (especially so since Chris Evans' Cap was so well recieved and beloved) was at least in that moment in history almost sacrosanct.
What was worse though was the writer standing behind it even though the actual story of the Cube changing reality was always the endgame. That was a dumb hill to die on and I'd argue it really hurt his career to do so.
I started reading comics in 1970 at about 6 years old. I would read my uncle's as he was only about 12 years older and the Fantastic Four, Doctor Strange and Captain America were regular titles in his stacks. I grew up thinking Steve Rogers was an ideal human being, an ideal man to be a goal for who I should be at my best. That never changed. When the hydra sleeper agent plot came out I was in a dry spell of not being able to afford comics, but I swore off buying Marvel at that point because it was clear to me that they valued sales over human values. Not my most eloquent, but that sums it well enough.
Hail Casually Comics!
Thanks for going back to meme land. I didn't think you would actually do it after I asked. Great video as always.
I effin loved Hydra cap. I think on the level of big themes, it demostrated the concept from arendt that if the ideal you're seeking is 'pure' enough, if the timeline given to acheive is long and complicated enough, you can be convinced to do horrible things. To paraphrase a different philosopher, totalitarianist ideology isn't something that allows bad people to do bad things, it's something that convinces GOOD people to do bad things.
Post Modern Neo-Marxism is the reason we can't have nice things.
I think Hydra Cap would be really good for a elseworld story or a alterative timeline. I think their biggest mistake was to put this story in the main contunity.
The Daredevil one was my favorite.
It was so ridiculous. It captures the exact absurdity of Cap ever saying that
Cap was actually Prof. Zoom the whole time! IT WAS ME BUCKY!!!!
the whole hydra cap thing could've worked in theory but honestly i feel like that execution was really not that great and badly executed also those memes were super funny.
I didnt hated capitain Hydra cuz come on we knew he wasnt going to be captain hydra forever something was going to happen and retcon him as hydra.
Btw great video as always 👍 and... 👂hail hydra
I was around, though not reading as many comics as I used to. I felt the story was one of those stories planned just to garner impact and call attention to the comics, taking advantage of how huge the MCU was getting. I mean, I was around for the death of Superman, I don't believe any big changes that comics present to established and popular characters anymore, everything tastes like a publicity stunt and often is. That being said, it does not necessarily diminish the value in those stories, they can be good or bad on their own, just that the whole buzz generated around these kinds of moments more often than not ends up pushing me away from reading them when they are just released. I guess I enjoy more seeing how they fix things, and if the fix is bad, I just let the whole story slide...
I did not know a about the history of hydra. Thank you. Oooh, and what is on your headband. That is one of my favorites! You should say what's on them ha, ha ha. Also, don't forget to wish Jonathan frakes a happy birthday today! Hail number one, and star trek: the next generation!
I remember when this happens being irritated, but I wasn't too upset because I assumed that they would retconn it relatively quickly, and they did.
Great selection of memes highlighted in the video. I laughed out loud at the Batman one.
Hydra Cap and the event as a whole was just horrible. It was not just Cap that got trashed either. Thor followed Hydra Cap willingly just because Cap could lift his hammer. They destroyed and entire US city, and yet there was almost no follow up.
I’ve never read or heard about Captain Hydra but I think it would only work if the reason why Cap is/was a double agent is solid. It’s also an interesting spin on a character that is to me pretty one dimensional. Not that being one dimensional is a bad thing, I like the Cap the way he is but this is just as interesting “what if” to me.
Thanks for making this video Sasha and introducing me to Captain Hydra.
My head canon is that the true Captain America is and always has been the guy who represents the ideals that American should strive for. Kubrik used her reality warping powers to create Hauptmann Hydra and put him in Captain America's body. When they extracted Captain America from the cosmic cube, they brought back the true Captain America and put him in a clone body so that Captain America could exist while allowing Hauptmann Hydra to stand trial.
I don't know all the details, so there might be something that contradicts this that I don't know about, but this is what I'm sticking with to preserve my sanity, my love of Captain America, and my love of comics.
I thought the idea of Hydra Cap was great plot idea. I mean the shock value alone of the "Hail Hydra" panel was worth it. But the way they went about correcting it...was a tad too convoluted. But it had a big impact when Cap is you're YOUR hero...seeing him turned into a villain was really a gut punch.
This is why I keep my social media footprint small. Thank you, once again, for the detailed deep dive into WTF happened here. I kind of remember there was a lot of hub bub over The Falcon becoming Captain America. Steve Rogers turning out to be a Hydra agent seemed familiar to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this story done in the '80s? I remember Steve Rogers being cloned or something, and that clone turned out to be a Hydra Agent that was trying to make S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers re-think all of their history with Captain America and then throwing the real Steve Rogers in jail because he was framed? Great...now I have to go into the storage shed a look for the comics.
I know Red Skull spent a LOT of time in a Steve clone body, complete with his face for a long while. You may be mixing that up.
He also thought he';d evolved beyond Naziism to a moral nihilism, backing all kinds of extremist groups from creeps pushing porn and drugs on children, to moralists burning down legal porn shops.
I like how you paid attention to several different contexts surrounding this comic and how the response to the comic evolved and influenced various media.
Oh man I’ve been waiting for you to cover more Captain America thanks Sasha!
Secret Empire had some really good parts but you had to know the ending was going to be a cop-out.
Sometime in highschool I realized the cyclical nature of stories in American comics. Writers try to do something different but the higher ups will only let the differences stay IF they are popular with fans and make money. Spider-Mans black and white costume was initially hated but then fans did a 180 and it was salvaged. I liked Hydra Cap because it was crafted well and it was different. I already knew it wouldn't stay that way because Cap is like Superman, the fans like him the way he is, changing him is risky. It was the same way when they tried to say Ben Reilly was the original Spidey and Peter Parker was the clone. Fans lost their shit and Marvel put their toys back the way they found them.
Hulk: I’m not angry
I never read the Captain Hydra/Secret Empire stories so my only Nick Spencer exposure at the time was to his Superior Foes of Spider-Man book, which was about Boomerang, Shocker, Overdrive, (female) Beetle and Speed Demon. You'd think a book about these C-list villains (and no Spidey) would be terrible but at the time not only was it the best Spidey-related book Marvel was putting out, it was one of the best Marvel books period. Definitely the funniest - highly recommended.
For example, Silvermane (the mobster turned cyborg) gets his head cut off. But because he's a cyborg the head is still alive. Shocker has it so he keeps it at his apartment and puts it in a toy electric car so Silvermane can drive himself around. At one point the head even gets disguised as Starchild from KISS. The book is just hilarious - so sad it didn't make it past 17 issues.
My head cannon, which is still full of holes, is that the Cosmic Cube girl destroyed the Ultimate Universe and switched the Ultimates with the 616 versions. It brought the more jingoistic Captain America, the more Aryan aligned Norse Thor, the back to being a drunk Stark, the more monstrous and addicted Hulk, and the jerk and wife-beater Hank Pym (who got melded with Ultron) to be used instead of the good people we know and love. And, if it weren't for the Cosmic Ultimates team fighting the Maker, who pulled the Ultimates from his universe out to fight, then killed Captain America himself, it would have worked, too. it would also explain why Wasp is alive again and dating fake Tony Stark.
Robin: Hey Batman, Hail Hyd--"
*SMACK*
Batman: It was MEEEEEEE, Barry!!"
Hey, hey Sasha, hey, do a Sharon Carter video, Please.
Also, man I hated this story line, but I picked up every issue because I just couldn't stop reading it. It was like that impulse to slow down and look at a highway accident.
Love the channel Sasha. Not sure if you’ve ever heard of it but there was a series back in the late 90s from DC called Vext that I would love to see you cover. It was written by Keith Griffin and it follows the adventures of DC’s god of misfortune. I don’t know if it would be a “You’re sleeping on...” video because it got cancelled after 6 issues over 20 years ago, but maybe a “You slept on...” title is more appropriate. Very funny read if you can find it.
When I first heard the hydra cap I said ok maybe alternate version. When it turned to be cap cap what instant anger and some how I felt a little kid creep out of no where give me the finger. Then kicked me in the face. Hail hydra
I do have strong feelings about Captain America, although not entirely sure why. I never really read his comics. I had seen him in the nineteen nineties movie, a bit of his old cartoon from the sixties, and his appearance in the nineties Spider-man cartoon. There was also what I learned by looking him up both in books and on-line.
I'm sharing this to point out that I'm not one of the bigger fans, but I was one of the people who was incredibly upset over the matter. A part of it was because it was a massive change, and one that was putting the character in league with what had been his enemies since his conception.
The bigger issue, for me at least, was that I KNEW it was not going to stay that way. That they would bring classic Steve Rogers Captain America back. That it was something they were doing to create shock in order to get people to pick up and read the comics. Probably in less than a year.
I'm going to stop there before I start ranting about comics as a whole.
Actually the Ultimate universe has been back for a while now. At the end of the Spider-men 2 (2018) mini series they reveal that the Ultimate Universe has been restored. More recently It was featured in the Venom series (2020). It featured The Maker, Ultimate Reed Richards, traveling back to his home Universe to cause some trouble
One word: Kobik. "Her" storyline is fundamentally intertwined with Standoff ant the whole Hydra Cap thing. Standoff was all about rewriting the personalities of others, all made possible by Cosmic Cube shards, which "hatched" into Kobik. Worth looking very closely at that whole thing.
Love your videos, especially the old history stuff!
i personally like Stevil (Hydra Cap). the story as good with the exceptional of how it ended.
To me, "Stevil" will always be a frustrated table-top roleplayer...
Intent and context matter. The writer of that arc didn't give a damn about the readers or about Steve Rogers. His intent was clearly stated and often repeated. That intent provided me enough context to despise the man, the company for which he worked, and the apologists that followed in his wake.
Outside of his intent, the arc could've been interesting and intriguing, if a little sloppily written. Unfortunately, once you learn the writer's intent, you can't unlearn it.
I still legit love Secret Empire, because it had actually something to say about corruption of a legacy, and trusting that corrupt ideal since you knew it before the change. One thing I wasn't a fan of was a detail of the ending, I get getting a OG Cap, but the way it was done STILL confuses people you think he's not real, and HYRDA Cap was. It's been some time, and Cap is facing the aftermath in the Ta-Nehesi Coates run, which I also love.
(Also Cap's return costume in Secret Empire was s major drip, one of my faves)
@this is not yodaI promised myself if I got verified, I wouldn't stop commenting the same way
(I also think it's kinda weird too lol)
If you’re coming at it from the perspective of someone who didn’t appreciate the character, especially the moral foundations of that character, then I can see where you’re coming from, and why you would appreciate TNC’s take on him. However, if you did appreciate that character and have followed that character, you’d recognize how out OOC this whole thing was and remains even after the OG-restore.
Normally, “corruption of a legacy” turns out to be about the character being a creature of their time, and thus not up to the ideals of ours. That might have been interesting but this wasn’t that. This was a retcon to make him evil while keeping his entire history of thought and action which displayed anything but. It was just dumb. Destructive and dumb.
@@keoghanwhimsically2268 I mean, it wasn't...
They literally give a reason why and how it happened for the story, and makes perfect sense, plus, it was never gonna be permanent, it was just for that story.
Yeah. not a fan of Spencer or Coates. They're both kinda assholes and it shows in their work... Superior foes was okay though.
I enjoy Hail Hydra as a meme, but I cannot forgive Spencer for making Cap into a Nazi. The issue was not that he "converted" Cap into an "evil twin," they did that in Axis and it was fine. The issue was that he tried to JUSTIFY this change, not just make it "a wizard did it," but actually lay out a storyline in the past that attempted to say *"IF* this had been Steve's life, he _would have chosen_ to be a Nazi. That is just anathema to what makes Steve Rogers work as a character. Steve Rogers is the character who even if everyone around him is a Nazi, he never would be. Ever. They even covered this in Secret Wars only a few months earlier!
Yeay a bit of AoS love on Casually Comic. 💖 The ghost of Fredric Wertham, “Why is Ernie kissing Bert?” 😡
this is not yoda It’s a comics history joke. Fredric Wertham was a censor crazy nut. Hard to explain but you can look it up.
Superboy:Hail, lex.
It's tricky because really, the stories we read about cap for years were from "before" Red Skull changed the past. I know.
It's probably because I'm not American or that I never read a lot of Captain America comics to actually be attached to the character, I was really introduced to Cap in the 2000s cartoons and the MCU, but I was never really triggered or even bothered by the Hydra Cap story even back then. I read the _Captain America: Steve Rogers_ comic to see all the hubub, it was immediately explained in the next issues that the Red Skull used the Cosmic Cube to alter Steve's history to make him a HYDRA agent the whole time. Taking that in mind, I rationalized it all that it essentially a Brainwashing plot taken to the next level. The Red Skull essentially brainwashed Cap into thinking he was a Hydra agent, he just used the Cosmic Cube to do it by altering his life as well.
So it's like an in-universe retcon but never meant to change the 50+years(70 if you count the 40s) of history to the character. It's like the plot of Back to the Future 2 where Biff changed the past, the 50s, to alter the then-present day 80s. Everyone's lives changed but did not affect the present day selves of Marty, Doc, and Jennifer, only their histories did.
Like you said Sasha, this was never going to be permanent and they always intended to bring back the real Steve Rogers.
This was really a setup for the Secret Empire storyline, but I guess it was poorly received due to the political climate at the time.
But that's my opinion and rationale to all this.
at this point I think right around the time when cap became old man cap was when I was getting out of Avengers style comics I did not like Captain Falcon I was just growing to love Falcon from the movies and and they pushed Captain Falcon on everybody so hard I even remember when they dumped him in Luke Cage's Avengers i was like isn't he supposed to be a world-saving hero not a street-level
I never really read Captain America books but remember it being quite the story at the time and laughing at the sidelines from the idea itself and the memes that it stemmed although I never appreciated how much Cap fans truly hated it and how it was all caught up in the toxicity that was 2016
I also feel hydra cap saved civil war 2 making it a lot more fun than the main story.
I'm old enough that I've lived through Commie Cap and USAgent Cap, so Hydra Cap isn't all that crazy.
For me the mental gymnastics aren’t hard simply because the history was changed from what it was with the Cosmic Cube iirc. So Cap wasn’t “always evil.” He was still good in all those stories and had some time travel shenanigans applied later.
Not an easy subject to discuss, among us comic book nerds. Well done Casually Comics!
All I can say is, "When you're messing with my Captain America, Hoss You're walking on the fighting side of me". ( And Merle).
It would been scarier IF Capt said it to Peggy Carter, when they hook up in End Game. They would under disguise with Hydra.
Three things: 1) I never understood the hate that came out of "Hydra Cap". It was a Cosmic Cube story and anyone that reads comics knows that that is a time when the writers are going to do some wacky, weird stuff because by it's very nature, it's not going to stick. I guess that was a time when a lot of new readers were filtering in after watching the MCU movies and just didn't know that Cosmic Cube stories equals it's not going to stick. The thing rewrites history and at the end, they always reverse it. Anyway...2) Nick Spencer is doing a good run right now over in Fantastic Four. I know people hate his Spidey and Cap runs, but I at least think he's done a good job of getting the Fantastic Four back to their roots after all the damage Marvel did to their fighting over the Fox rights. Finally...3) The Ultimate Universe is officially back! Check out new issues of Venom! Starting with #26, although there is some setup throughout the series. The Ultimate Reed Richards, the Maker, has opened a gate back to that universe and although it's extremely damaged, it's still there. Donny Cates' run on Venom has been awesome, so it's worth the read, anyway!
When I saw this in "Captain America", I said to myself, "WTF???" I believed that this had to be a "Cap Is Brainwashed" storyline, and that other characters in the story arc would have to rescue him. But, I guess, the story got politicized in a Presidential Election year, and it got messed up. It is going to take some time, and new Marvel management and writers, to clean up this continuity mess.
So, as an older guy now, I thought it was cool that Cap turned a la, Hollywood Hulk Hogan
2:49 Melinda MAY, sorry had to correct that. carry on
Call in the Calvary!
Hi Sasha! Soooooo, I may be wrong about the official status of the story but I'm pretty sure the Ultimate Universe has been back since the Spider-Men II mini from 2018. Don't get me wrong it's not a good book, per say, but it ends with a glimpse of the Ultimates (including, if I remember correctly, what seems to be Peter Parker/Spidy and his female clone Jessica Drew/Spider-Woman) implying to the reader the existence of a fully restored Ultimate Universe.
There should be a member of Hydra named Bob
Actually, I think pre-Civil War Spider-Man met a Hydra grunt named Bob. This was while he and the fam were still living in Stark Towers.
Interestingly, there was just a "sun's getting real low" in a Hulk comic.
A few years earlier and Hydra Cap might have worked. It was just the wrong idea, at the wrong time.