Is it too late to try? (TRAINING MY DOG TO HERD SHEEP!): Vlog 246
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- CALLING ALL SHEEP DOG TRAINERS!!
After hours of editing... I am finally convinced my dog is in dire need of some basic sheep herding training.
Today, I am trying something you all have been suggesting which is to tie her up when I am working with the sheep in the handling area...
I guess it's a start??
Please comment below on some EASY commands, and baby steps for ME as I am the world's least patient teacher EVER!
Lets train this dog together!!!
#sheep #sheepdog #sheepdogtraining
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My border collie knows “leave it”. Useful around a bully rooster. These dogs are so smart, and they actually love learning new things.
Leave it is also an amazing command you should teach her and drill into her till she is bulletproof at it for when shes nipping
How about AT EASE OR RELAX
"Leave it" is a staple. It keeps you frim yelling no all the time. My Staffy was 3 when we rescued her and had few manners. Leave it was the very first command we used regularly. She is awesome with all our other rescues and the chickens. She even has rescues under her belt(a couple baby birds and an abandoned guinea pig). Good dog!
I was thinking of this command this a.m. Very good command.
We use "leave it" with our hunting dogs also. Once they figure it out it's very effective.
Quick tip I was told by an old farmer that I found useful with my little Swedish Vallhunds; is to let them figure out what a word means themselves, it makes them think, process and respond as opposed to just reacting, after a while the response becomes second nature. For example put a few sheep(or ducks/horses in my case) in a circular pen where the dog can't touch them but can travel all the way around in either direction.
Let the dog do as it pleases and when you see the dog do an action you would like to be able to tell it to do, say your 'command' word eg. down, far, near away, sit, back etc. every single time the dog does that action on its own say the command word and follow with your 'reward' word eg. good lass/lad, that'll do, good job etc.(or a pat or a treat whatever your dog likes best). After a while (I think lovely Kinsey will learn quickly being a collie) they associate the action with the word and you can do the same thing but use your command, wait for the correct response and use your reward. After you've got that down, you can progress with opening one side of the pen a little, wider and wider each session until there is no pen. Keep sessions short even just 5 mins at the start(a few short sessions but 3 or so a day is better than 15 mins straight I find) and always end on a good note if possible.
One thing I wouldn't tolerate from my dogs is any nipping/biting at my livestock(never had any from my vallhunds or belgian shepherds but I've heard its a common collie thing), its unnecessary with few exceptions and can be a harmful habit around pets and small children.
The MOST important thing Sandi is to breathe! Always take a step back and calm yourself, it is not something worth getting upset, frustrated or angry over. You CAN do this Sandi, you are strong, powerful and patient and we are all here supporting you lovely :) If you have any questions or anything feel free to send me a message, sending love from England :)
Sandi, specifics in this post is what i was meaning about how to train. She nailed the basics here.
No... collies are super smart. My collie is taught by me to herd. What you have to do is keep the dog on a long line with a few sheep and direct him with what he needs to do. You also have to use your body because they look at you to what to do. For example, my collie knows where to go when I point with my finger or a shepherd’s stick
@@judy3460
Just curious - what are you saying "no" to?
You are completely right. We just have a lab. House dog. Nothing fancy. But I've taught her such things as drop it. Leave it. Both those commands can be used in any circumstances. If i want her to leave a cat alone "leave it". Want her to leave a person alone "leave it". Want her to leave her toy alone and focus on me "leave it". Leave it and drop it also are great tools for when were out on a walk if she comes across something fishy she might try to eat a solid LEAVE IT. Normally works. I also taught her "rude" lol. She seems to mind her manners more
Sandi, this post I support 100%
I would schedule training time for her, just like you do with other jobs. I believe training should be separated from your other time, recognizing that you can't possibly train and do the job at the same time, both require different behaviors from you and from her. Think of training her as just another management job to be done. And she will appreciate the scheduling, most dogs love a routine.
Yes! This!! Trying to do your routine and your jobs that need to be done at the same time you're trying to train your dog will split your focus resulting in frustration for both you and your dog. I would do it in small increments, 10 minutes at a time two or three times a day if possible, work up to it. You want to have 100% focus on her and her behavior so you can correct and praise at appropriate moments. Being overwhelmed or stressed is the big thing to avoid and it IS hard to avoid, if you're trying to split your attention between the job you HAVE to do while trying to correct/guide her.
Calm and in charge, you want her to know you're the leader and she needs to look to you for direction and the best way to start that process is when there are no distractions, just you and her and training time.
Whenever she's laying down and being super good and quiet that's when you want to give her a treat or verbal praise.
Not in my book, getting to work sheep is the reward.
@@stephaniesummers7452 Are you a trainer? Working sheep is the job not the reward being with Sandy is the reward her approval is a reward. I was a dog trainer for 30 years until a car accident retired me.
@@marcietee3841 Yes, and previously stated. I have been professionally training Borders on sheep for over 17 years. I mainly train for competition, but have trained farm dogs as well.
*sigh* please can get along. Please? Training dogs is like raising kids..no one way is the right way. Everyone and every dog learns differently. I was just trying to give Sandi an easy behavior that she could put on cue. Thank you for your input, both of you.
The dogs reward is the work.
I agree, the biggest thing is to teach her to stay on a “place” and stop running around so crazily when you are doing work. I’d say the first thing she needs to do is learn some self control.
Teaching her to stay on a spot is more helpful than tying, as they have to practice self control instead of just being physically restrained. It’s more important that you have control of her mind, not just her body.
Sandi!!!! That dog is soooo ready to work! You dont have to do much, you can see she wants to do her job. Start talking to her. Have her lie down while you r training and then let her run the next one into the cute. Talk to her! Tell her what you want her to do. I am sure she is frustrated as you are not telling her what you want. I think you have the making of a great dog!
I think so too, since the first time I saw her. She's got all the right instincts, with just a few to be nipped in the bud. This breed is one of the brightest in the canine world, and they need to work! She has the potential to be Sandi's right arm. Good dog!
Thirded. You've got a breed that is scarily smart--no exaggeration, I have a pair of corgi who are a bit lower on the scale and they've learned the meaning of a LOT of words on their own, so much so that it's challenging for the wife and I to talk about some things without them getting excited--and, also like Dbirdey and Tamara said, your dog *really* wants to work and make you happy. So much so that she seems to have already figured out some of what should be done on her own. Many of the herding breeds do a lot of their own thinking, with only guidance from the handler, because they are *very* smart and independent thinkers. She'll likely know what needs doing based on the context of the task and what you are doing, and once you get the initial understanding between the two of you figured out, a little bit of guidance (via commands) and she'll end up doing most of the work for you, on your own.
You absolutely must remember to praise / reward when she does what you want! *Especially* when she does what you want without you needing to tell her. Laying down and staying out of the way when you need her to? Take a few seconds and drown her in praise and pets, then go back to what you are doing. So long as you reinforce with reward what you want, you'll likely only need a few days of the rope, or other props to help.
Final note: Make sure you think through what you'll want out of her BEFOREHAND as having consistent rules will get you there so much faster, and avoid needing to untrain, then retrain a behavior because you weren't sure what you wanted to start with so accidentally taught her something you really don't want her doing.
I agree give her the commands you want her to learn sit stay I used “OFF” when she goes after a ewe. You can teach the basic off command by use I gotta treats. She is a great dog.
Mountain Goat I agree. She is a great dog and all she wants to do is please Sandi.
Reiteration: Use your words, use your hands, use a treat (some treats are toys).
Everyone is giving great advice here....but notice that everyone is trying really hard to tell you to speak more to her. I use commands always. Differentiating a command tone from "speaking" tones. Dogs are much smarter than people usually give them credit for (even trainers). So, you tied her up...but did you turn every so often and give a command and a hand motion to reiterate what she is supposed to be doing? I use "WAIT". That tells her to stop, stay put, and wait. Any word works....but it's SOUND should be able to be sharper than normal speech when said sternly. Then use a release command... I use "OK", "HERE", "HEEL", or...if you want her to push...use that command.
She is a perfect working dog....Eager to learn, high trainability, loves her work. If your "trainer" said no...find another trainer. A good trainer can train ANY dog. I've never said "no"... because for every dog...there is a way.
Keep at it...you're doing a great job.
And if I haven't said it yet...I love your videos, your love for your animals, and screw those guys that tried to demonize what you do. You don't deserve it...but in a way...I'm glad it happened. Having spent time educating "animal lovers" that fall for the misinformation online...seeing how a loving, caring person that treats their animals with respect and love can be used for the agenda of creating that misinformation is the greatest way to educate the people that fall for it. In the end...you will do more to help people see the truth of it. I'm just sorry that it caused you so much heartache.
Best response, 10/10 great advise & info.👌
Short quips! Too much talk confuses.
@@cynthialmedina9947 Dogs can differentiate talk from command. When you train a dog, you should be able to have an entire conversation around your commands. If you can't....you are not training enough, or emphasizing your command words enough. No quips, just commands key words.
In fact, well trained dogs will work in complete silence...taking cues from body language or hand signs alone.
In Europe, working sheep dogs use whistles....paying no attention to conversation at all.
Tone is important for training. The command is very meaningless.
SANDI WHAT EDEN STARR SAYS HERE US GOSPEL.AS A TRAINER FOR ALL TYPES IF WORK N PEOPLE (WAIT =STOP) & WAIT ,THEN SIT ....MAKE SURE U LET HER" SEE " WHAT EVERY MOVE U DO."WATCH" MITE BE USED HERE CUZ SHE SURE US DOING THST N PUTTING A WORD TO WHST U WANT HER TI FO " WHEN SHE IS DIING IT ,NI MATER WHEN OR WHERE ,TEACHES HER TGE WORD EITH ACTION MUCH QUICKER ". I've been training dogs for 70 years n showing or word to action anywhere n good dog or cat is good ...those are the only treats I've ever given ,plus the live they feel from me ... One problem u mite have is that you r sweet n loving BUT THATS ONLY BAD CUZ WHEN SHE GETS EXCITED SHE CANT HEAR YOU !!! SO THE PAT IS GOOD YHR DNILE WUTH HER NSME OR WORD IS VERY GOOD TREAT.SHE WILL SOON KEARN TO LOOK AT YOU" EVEN" WHEN XC8TED ....CUZ SHE LOVES YOU N SHE WÀNTS TI SRR THAT YIU R PLEASE WITH WHAT SHE HAS DONE ...WHEN ITS NIT WHAT YOU WANT YOU MITE TRY ONE OR SLL OR ANY COMBO OR WHAT IVE FOUND TI WORK WITH ALL DOGS ( I STAMP ONE FOOT, SHAKE MY FORFINGER AT THEM& SSY NADA(we say no too many times in daily talk n so saying BADA at this time doesn't confuse dog at other times hearing 'no') & THEN PUT MY HANDS ON HIPS,& make sad face n repete NADA again !!! Call me or" TEXT" MEwith any ??? Any time day or nite ...I'll answer quick as I see it!!! Free n I can help even more if u tell me watch vlog to watch for that problem if u happened to catch it on film !!! Bless u Sandi n I wish I could work like I use to just like you do now !!! Karen
Sorry about my phone scrambling my spelling ,I need new key board ,can't train it like I can dogs , remember with all the noise in barn you Want your dog to watch you n your hands or face for that smile or frown. N give her a really good Pat ,smile,n good rub !!! You mite want to try her chest jump into your arms cuz that would be the icing on the cake for her like I saw guy do in one vlog ( forgot his name) wait will stop her running after sheep n when you call her come start using arm motion (lifted up in air & make swiping motion as your hand come back to u ) when she starts to get this ,try it without the word n when she gets that reward her with jump chest hug but be braced with one foot well behind you !!! This you can then use for when she starts to run after sheep n blow a whistle once to get her attention n the use your arm !!! I've been using action n one word training for 70 years n have passed it on to many people ...by teaching them to learn to read their dogsbody language ,n to be able to stop the action b4 dig even starts it ,when u get good at it BUT what works even wuicker is to get your dog to focus on you n what you are doing n she does this already ,that's why I said yo let her see what you r doing n make sure she sees your face n good at all times ...you don't have to face her ..,jus5 do she can see the side of your face fairly good.n if shbehind you ,then yes show her smile if she's good ...rule #1 allow her to see what u r doing so she will start watching your face as well so smile at her if she's doing this n that Pat goes a thousand miles as well !!!
Hi Sandi. You’re getting some terrific advice here, so the only thing I’m going to add is to work those core commands. Without those, it can be very frustrating for everyone involved, especially your lovely girl. Work on basic obedience, allllll the time, 24/7 with TONS of praise (I include treats along with praise for mine for the basics because they’re SO important). Once she’s nailing them and holding her positions, work them in a series and start out sloooow, one or two in a series, then as she nails each series, build on it until you’re reaching all the commands - Sit, down, stay, come, sit, hard down, back, down, left, right, out, switch, (or whatever YOU personally want from her - I’ve found that unless you’re training a dog for stock shows? Use commands that make sense for YOU and YOUR needs, not just words from a book).
Tying her is a short term solution, but if she has her basic commands, and is holding her down/stay, you’ll be able to do everything you need WITHOUT ever needing to tie her. I literally work my dogs commands 24/7, all day long, in and out of the house. Working in the kitchen and she’s with you? Sit. Down. Stay. Start out slowwww, see how long she’ll stay until she breaks, and build on it. And above all, PRAISE THE HECK OUT OF EVERYTHING! These are incredibly smart dogs that WANT to please you, but it’s going to take some work because basics normally start at as young as 6 weeks, and she’s been allowed to sort of just do her own thing for quite some time, lol.
Stick with it...you’ve got an awesome dog, and she sooo wants to work. ❤️
This is the same way in which I train mine and my husband's service dogs. Being owner trained gives me the advantage of having my dog look to me for directions on what to do and how to react, which is vital when performing ANY job, plus that foundation of trust. Most important thing to remember when working your pup ( it's never too late to start) patience is everything, don't give up, and like what was stated before; it doesn't matter how small a victory everything needs to be celebrated. Some dogs take a bit more practice than others but from my experience (training everything from feathers, barks, woofs, hooves and even fish) not all training methods work for every animal. We have to find the training methods that work best for them (what they respond to the most) and patience patience patience. Good luck!
Sandi, I am so impressed with your ability to handle such heavy-duty farm equipment. I have a hard time just backing up into my garage! In addition, let me say what a hard worker you are. I hope your family realizes and appreciates you and the hard work you do everyday for their benefit.
I'm seeing more chasing instinct than I do herding. I would teach her some obedience and go from there. Sit, stay, down, heel, wait. Those commands alone I feel would help you tremendously with teaching her how to deal with the sheep in the correct way. 😊
Jazmine Bohanan yes! But without impulse control training she’ll never manage those commands with the sheep nearby as an instinctive distraction
@@theworkingdoglife182
Agreed. Right now, its clear Kinsey understands sit. Her rump touches ground, she feels she has obeyed, and her rump bounces back up. She will get it.
@@julieenslow5915 Its a half arsed sit. A full sit is when she will shift her weight, that is when you know she is being truly obedient. That half a second sit then spring back up is her basically half mocking "I can do it.. see, but I'm not staying in my command position"
@@chelseashaw17
Of course! It is either her fighting the command or not understanding it - either way - "its a half arsed sit"!!
Hmm not too sure about that, she's clearly trying to circle the sheep, that's classic Collie herding. Also notice that as long as the sheep don't move, the dog doesn't move (not a lot anyway). The reason it looks like chasing I think is that she can't reach the position she wants, she can't actually circle the sheep, causing her to turn around to try and find another way.
Your doing great , it's step by step I use the command"place" with a downward hand motion . my dogs know to stop sit or lay down and wait for the release command of "free" then they are free to run or whatever they want to do. God bless, keep up the good work 😍
Agree. "Place" is a single syllable word with a long vowel "A" which is easier for the dog to hear and process than the word "settle." When you tie her somewhere, and you see her actually lying down calmly, say "place" to reinforce the behavior. [I hesitate to tell you what to do, everyone else is making so many suggestions! In my dog experience, the key is calm repetition/consistence and persistent guidance. The dog won't train itself. And routine is everything, dogs love reliable routines and habits.
All I can really add, is if you don't like the word "place," we use "go to bed." Then I would treat her with the hoof trimmings, for holding the position. "Good, place," - have a sheep cookie.
Zak George is training his own border collie puppy right now on his channel. He doesn't have his pup on sheep, but can definitely teach you how to teach your girl.
that's how I trained my cattle dog...he was on a line from the horse then on my hip(waist belt) and then tied to the truck while branding or vaccinating and he got the idea that this is where I'm spose to be during these activities. He was an awsome boy and he was part ause I and part border collie.
I use “Leave It” command with my dog on anything I want them to disregard. It works well.
I've inadvertently trained my dogs to respond to 'easy does it' or 'easy' or 'steady' because that's what I use with the horses, mostly I think it is the strong, low and calm tone (almost drag the words out a bit) that is most important. Good luck with lovely Kinsey :)
I agree that using the word "steady" would be good.
We've always used the same cues.
My advice to you is find someone who does herding seminars in southern ontario and bring her there. It will help give you some guidence and they can give you tips and tricks
“Wait” is a go to for my girls. I can tell them to wait at an open gate and they will not step through. “Heel or Here” is what I use when I want them to stay close
Yes. Waiting is an *action*. We think of it as inaction and doing nothing when, in fact, it takes a lot of training and discipline to wait well. I agree. "Wait" is a good one.
We actually learned that our retriever and lab didn’t need any words to train. just using a hand signal/ sign language for dog 🐶 taught them everything a dog could possibly need or want to know. It was so fun to just make a hand sign and they followed it!! 🤩 thanks for your videos!!! The mental health love and support is amazingly strong here. ❤️❤️❤️
My daughter trained her border collie with "down", " Stay" (so it stays laying down) and then "ok" (for when it can move. A lot of verbal praise when the dog does what it is told.
Praise her when shes just laying there doing what you want her to. Works for me.
Loving the amount of praise you already give her!!
Every once in a while you should be commanding Kenzie to "STAY"..."HEEL"....STAY....reinforcing sitting there with your verbal commands..EDIT: also finger pointing at her when you say "STAY or HEEL" is also beneficial...i train horses and they read body language to the extreme...so combining a finger point, with a verbal command, when she is sitting calm and motionless is extremely beneficial. she is extremely hyper and it stresses me out just watching, i am sure it does the same to your sheep in the barn and you are reinforcing that behavior by allowing it daily and constantly...you should work with her the moment she enters the barn and yell commands to STOP every time she takes off jumping in the bunks and being hyper...she has to learn that you are the master and only positive behaviors get rewarded...it can be done surprisingly easily..i would work with her outside the barn, every time she gets too far away from you- call her back...she must be taught (if you are wanting a trained working sheep dog) she only responds and does what you command...go for walks with her outside the barn and keep calling her back whenever she gets to far ahead of you or gets too hyper...a few days of that and not allowing her in the barn will teach her she is now your student, and no longer a free lancer on her own...you may even want to put a leash on her the next time she is in the barn, teach her to walk with you, sit when you tell her, get her to relax a bit more, get her to FOLLOW you and your commands.
bill nalder
I agree. Also, clear commands will relieve the pressure of her trying to guess what you want. Consistent behavior on the trainer's part will go a long way to teaching her who is in charge now, and that will relieve her, once she knows it is consistent. (it actually is a loop!)
@@julieenslow5915 yes exactly Julie!..i can sense that all along she wants to please and do a 'job' but she has no idea what to do so becomes extremely hyper..i know horses (and cattle) but when working with horses its EXTREMELY important for the rider or trainer to really have a clear cut commands, goals and instructions in their head and then communicate that to the animal.
Kenzie was being amazing when you tied her up ! I think she’d benefit greatly from having a “place” command ! Have you tried keeping treats in your pocket ? And rewarding her with a treat and saying “good girl!” Whenever she does a thing you like ? Also not reacting when she does something you don’t like is the best way, because you getting mad and shouting, she sees that as you giving her attention. I like how when she’s bad you kick her out, that shows her that if she acts out, she can’t be with you. I think “leave it.” Would be a good command for her around the hoof trimmer ! 🧡
Ummm…she kept pulling and whining and getting all overly excited every time Sandi even flipped a sheep in the chute 😂🤦🏼♂️ You got a very curious definition of a doggy behaving “amazing”. Unless you meant she wasn’t zooming around constantly because she was restrained then sure 😂😳
@@jessehachey2732 I literally gave points on how she could improve Kenzie's behaviour but because I chose the word "amazing" to use there, you decided to pick that apart....
It’s a combination of long distance obedience and impulse control, a huge helping factor is having another sheepdog to guide a new one! There’s a lot more to it than that, but I don’t think TH-cam has private messaging 😂
The Working Dog Life I was just gonna comment and say we always used to tie our dog that was to learn along side our dogs that know what there doing that way wen we give the commands the learning dog has no choice but to do the command too!!!great advice.
Impulse control over instinct is not easy to accomplish, but us trainers all have to deal with that at times. Especially when starting a young dog
Stephanie Summers ah yes, but the more you practice the better it gets naturally
"Leave it" when she is excited, and "Good girl" when she is laying down. Works for my Mimi pin
Sandi, lots of great advice in this thread! I am going to assume you have never trained a dog - and give a global view. The first thing that has to happen - is you have to learn how to train a dog. There are other alternatives, i am sure, but this really is the first and best step. If you hire others to train your dog - Kinsey's success will depend on how well they understand your needs, and how well they do it. Kinsey is starting late which a hired trainer may not have the motivation to overcome - and it totally can be overcome. Here's the good news - you only have to do it once, as after that you will know how to do it. Normally, training the trainer includes training a dog, so you wont need more time to do it, just dedicated time. That is, time that you set aside to spend with Kinsey, wherever you choose for training. I know, but it pays dividends.
You start with the core commands. Sit. Stay. Come. Down. Walk. You need to have a means of showing her when you are "training" at least to start - a special collar for working is one way of doing that. The amount of time you set for training needs to set you up for success, and varies depending on the age of the dog, how much they already know and how well they can control themselves.
The first dog i trained, i was in high school and he was a cocker spaniel. We started at half an hour a day, one session after school, and the time needed expanded but you always want to finish a session with a success, reward, and praise. Rewards can be treats, praise, petting, etc. You will find having your attention 100% for the training session is its own reward and incentive for her to excel. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge of sheepdogs can recommend a starting regime for your training sessions, but i offer that as a fairly routine way of starting if people don't give specifics.
Since you are catching up, you may want two sessions a day (shorter times) plus of course once she has her core commands, you will start using those as needed in the house, etc. A routine is very helpful, it needs to be prioritized. Professional dogs - police, guide dogs, service dogs, etc. have a way of knowing when they are "on duty" and when they are "off" - and the special collar or lead is one way of doing that. More good news. Once you have Kinsey trained, you can let Kinsey help to train your next dog (after you handle the core training) so this training time - for you and Kinsey is a permanent skill for both of you. k.
Training your dog is like training your child. It take a lot of love and patiences .
Also maybe back her a “mark” or “place” or “target” train her to find her mark and stay there
I agree "place" or "platz" with clear hand motion down
Start with basic obedience. Take a series of lessons if need be. It's more about training you the handler, as opposed to the dog. Next, get a membership to "The Working Sheepdog Website". A one year membership is only about $100 and you have unlimited access to over 70 training videos. Any Nickless is extremely clear and patient with his instructions. He not only shows you what to do, but also what to do when things go wrong. I so wish that I had had access to this site 20 years ago when I started training our dogs. Really, really, really worth the membership fee.
“Leave it” is the command that we use when we want our dogs to stop doing something. Basically telling them to leave whatever it is that they are interested in alone at that time. Simple commands are best and repetitive drills to allow them to learn it.
Yes, yes, yes! It took me so long to stop my service dog from pulling cause he wanted to chase everything. " Leave it" was a hard lesson for him but so worth it.
I use the word steady to slow the dog down and get her attention then tell her what to do. If she is doing something you dont like you just have to be firm, also try working her on a lead so you always have control and commands can be trained easier as she can mess around
TH-cam sheepdog training with Ted Hope the videos are old but the advice and knowledge is top class
Wait is a word that I use. Im not on a farm but waiting to cross the street or for neighbors to walk by while we are walking, I use "Wait". I also use "calm" in a calm voice for my one dog when he sees a school bus or something that gets him excited. So when you tie your dog to do the trimming, say "wait" at the point where she would go crazy. She can't go anywhere anyway because she is tied but you are building a behavior. Praise when its over and she has done it. Just started watching your videos and I love them and am in awe of all that you do.
Twine is perfect as long as she doesnt chew. You may not have patience, but neither does your dog. Tying is good, as long as you are in view of her. She should be tied many times. I teach my puppy bcs to tie at 8 weeks old, and to shut up too. PS, I dont have that much patience either... My word to calm down, or to get out of it, or we are done for now is That'll do... they seem to pick up on that rather quickly. To help snap a dog out of too much excitement and calm down, caused when they can get too worked up, I use "Tssst" And done kind of guttural. If it doesnt work with out a further correction, touch her with three of your fingers into her rib cage, perpendicular. If you give that noise, backed up by the firm touch, it wont take long for the touch to only be backed up once in a while instead of each time you use the work (called fading), as the Tsst will work, working on her mind and not the body. Later, a snap of the fingers will work for a physical correction instead of the finger touch. I train all of my dogs this way, less intensity for the more sensitive ones. I use the work HEY for mistakes.
I use words like “Off or leave it”. With a little bit of work and reward when she listens will help you out a lot and she seems like she is willing to learn and that will help out a lot.
Also as mentioned in an other post, a release is needs to be given as well. Ok or any word you choose. Just be consistent. Mac
Lots of great advice. Kinsey is a great dog from what I see. Think the first thing you need to understand is BCs are always "on"! She obviously wants to please you and is looking for you to tell her what to do. Basic obedience always helps. I see there are already comments directing you to herding videos. There are reasons they use "come by", "away", "down", "walk up" etc with BCs. I think you did the smartest thing today in tying her up...this part of the job she needs to stand down.
I suggest you watch some of those recommended videos. I would take her over to your lamb barn where you have much more space to let her herd and move them. Yes, it means finding more time to schedule training sessions, but they shouldn't be long sessions anyway. Start her with a smaller group and more space.
Btw, she isn't attacking. That breed either uses eye control or nipping them to make them move. They are used to moving large groups across open pastures. Why I suggest using your other barn. Start with where they instinctively have come from, then adapt to your main barn. Right now that is far too much of a confined environment for how she naturally works. Start her where she is going to succeed. Failure will only frustrate both of you.
Training is a wonderful time. She needs to show you what she can do so you can learn how to use her talents. You need to let her train you in how she works. I have owned hunting, herding, and guard dog breeds. Even amongst breeds they all have their unique personalities.
You will get there!
Use “Enough” or “stay”? Idk Positive reward when you teach stay successfully. Start out with 3 seconds of a stay and reward before she fails. Keep going up with the time. And if you get a fail, go back to a shorter time. Train 10 to 15 min at most each time and in different places so that whatever command you use, it is universal. Try to end on a success each time. Better to repeat shorter sessions more often IMO.than having too long of a single session.
I've learned with my dog that hand signals with the command gives a visual for her. I use "wait" and ✋. Just got her as a rescue last year, & she is 13.
Serendipity Hand signals are excellent for dogs basic commands. Sit, stay, down, etc etc need to be reinforced 24/7. Just tying her up is a temporary fix. Keep working with her. You can tell she just wants to please you. ❤️
Someone else has said "Leave it". I would tell my dog "leave alone" or even "mine". They knew not to touch whatever I said that about. You need to make sure you only praise her for the right things. Praise and timing is everything. If she is still bouncing do not pet or praise her. She is smart and will catch on. Every time you got ready to let a sheep out I would tell her to stay/ sit or stay/ laydown. And do teach her hand commands. Hand commands work really well when they can see you but not hear you or if they become deaf. My pet dogs would respond to hand commands so any of them can learn it. There surely is a trainer near you that can help you, check with your vet. It may also help if you have helpers work the sheep and then you can spend more time on her training rather than having divided attention between Kinsey and the sheep. All in all I think you are on the right track and will have a wonderful helper in Kinsey.
Hi Sandi, When we got our dog (inherited from my sister-in-law), one of my harp students lent us a book, called "Good Owners, Great Dogs." It was a God send!! It taught us to use hand signals, as well as voice commands, which came in REALLY handy when her hearing started to go near the end of her life. She could still see us and we could do the same hand signals that we'd been doing for years (at the same time as giving voice commands) - which saved her from dangerous situations and saved our sanity, too. Cheers,
I train BCs on sheep for competition. There is a top handler there in your area that should be able to direct you to a trainer in your area. Just contact me if you want her name.
I took herding workshops with my Rough Collie, many years ago.... from Border Collie handler/trainers. From what I had learned about BC's, their instinct is to gather and bring sheep TO you. For Kinsey, you are asking her to PUSH sheep away from you and that is counter-intuitive (i don't know why she hasn't just shouted that at you yet! 😂😂😂). Maybe understanding that will be helpful for you. I second the recommendation to get a Border Collie trainer to help! Or get a Rottweiler. Their initial use was as drovers to push sheep and cattle down to market. And carry the money packs home. 😉😂😂😂 Oops, NOW i have watched again, and see what you are asking... How to get her to calm down in specific circumstances. After you watch one of your videos, and you know where you have trouble, then you need to work the situation in a training scenario. Set up the 'sheep flipper' with no sheep in it and work with Kinsey to get calm behavior and reward it. So much of training is setting up situations where you need a specific behavior, (or need to correct a behavior) and break it down. Reward the behaviors you want. Help to prevent the behavior you don't. That is what you did today... By tieing her up you prevented her from circling, getting in your way, and scaring the sheep. ☑️ As for words... They need to be trained, too. 'Settle' is good, but do you enforce and reward it? That is the key. Never give a cue that you can't enforce or reward. If you can't make her settle, don't say it. If you don't have something that SHE recognizes as a reward, don't say it. Sorry for the epistle. I've been training dogs too long.🙄.
@@afghanbunny1 I have a Rottweiler. I agree he will send sheep away...
Stephanie Summers I just mentioned sending her for training. Would make a good video as well
@@genevievegreene1595 lol...i love rottweilers
@@afghanbunny1 Maybe she should be standing at the far end and send her to get the sheep toward her? That just might work, if you watch her, that's kind of what she's already trying to do.
When you push sheep have him on a short leash with you at all times until he knows what his job is. What you did today was correct he gets excited because he wants to help after a while he won"t care because he will know thats where he should be about commands use commands and if he obeys use small training treats to reward him when he does a good job .
Teach her on leash- repeat, repeat,repeat- some trainers say 300 times repeat the task.... it is hard work and it’s where many dog owners fail.
Tracy Covington Exactly Tracy, dogs learn by repetition and it takes a lot of patience. I have seven dogs that are well behaved now, but I had to be trained first if you know what I mean. I also give my dogs rewards as treats and that hits home in their brains quick. I won’t take more of your time.
You two young ladies work very well together. Hard work but at the end of the day a rewarding. You are also teaching her work ethics beyond. Of corse you know all this but it is nice to know someone else sees it.
I use the wait command and stay, when something is moving and she wants to go, i say leave it. When i want her to visit other animals I say ok say hello.
Sandi, I so appreciate your videos. Thank you for all your hard work. We appreciate you so much.
Not only is the command important, But the TONE is very important. not yelling but deeper pitch in your voice. Just like how a lot of children will "snap to" if Dad issues a command versus Mom... Just my Humble opinion. I am just starting to watch your videos, and I an super grateful that you have gone above and beyond to record all this very valuable information for everyone. Superb!!! Thank You & God Bless ~
Im glad your reaching out for help !!! Your dog wants to work and do great things for and his sheep lol notice i say his sheep.. Let him think they are his job 😂🇺🇸
I use the command "leave it" for my dogs. I have a hound mix and he can be very vocal and overly excited when he sees something he wants to "tell" me about. "Leave it" tells him that his job is done and he settles down again.
I’d add a command when you tie her up. Like stay or calm. That way she learns to do this with just a command and you not having to leash. And of course always praise for good behavior.
Leashing in a specific spot that you would like her to go to always upon command maybe something else to do
As a trainer I tell clients that training isn't one way for every dog. Dogs are different and respond to different methods.
Using words like leave it, off, calm, settle, etc is good because you can form an association of the command with one of her actions. I read some lovely advice in other comments from other farmers. But one of the things I'll repeat from them is this: step back, take a breath. You can do this. Take your time and take small steps. Small progress is better than no progress.
Your doing wonderful with working with her. Keep at it.
Don't forget to reward her when she's good instead of only criticizing her when she's bad
Still, Sit/Stay, and Watch are some of the ones I've used on my dogs. Give her the command and keep a good treat on you to give to her when she obeys you. If you use a word and she behaves, treat her. Even if she stands up again, pause the trimming to remind her and when she behaves treat her again. Even if the treat is just her fave toy.
Looking up "Leave it" training might help you with her training, as far as words if settle is starting to work already you can just keep with that it's better to use something that works for you and be consistent than to change things up while learning.
Good job. You are so aware of all things around you. Just a big compliment for being you.
Great success with the tying up training !!! Keep at that for now. She will eventually learn to stay relaxed during hoof trimming. If only you had a full week of trimming to do, would be great. It will take time, but she's young and eager to please you.
My Days are complete with Sandi and her sheep!!
Wendy H, Fantastic advice. Remember she not only will work with you but at times with other people ( family, helpers, friends, etc) because you will not always get to be with her always. Your children or anyone who may have to stand in for you will need a posted sign of the terminology/definitions that you use with her to omit confusing Kinsey if that occasion occurs. Kinsey is a valuable asset especially with training.
You continue to amaze and impress me ! Love you guys
Hi, we are also self training our dog for hearding cattle. I'm still working on her with the cattle going through the chute and also tied her up next to the tub. What we do is when she gets worked up is tell her "down" shes really good at that command and we use it when we want her to stop and lay down to take pressure off the cow so it will relax and keep going or for her to just lay there while we work. I think the most important thing is repetition. Keep tieing her up and also make her settle or down before the ewe comes out of the chute. We also use the word "back" not for her to come to us but to just back off a bit. We use "come" to come to us, and "push em" to push them up. Love watching your videos. Very informative and addictive.
With my border collie when I want her to stop I tell her that will do and lay down .
You are doing great with training Kenz! You asked for suggestions for working commands rather than outside commands. “Herd”, “Round up” or “Push” for when you are teaching her to help without using the gate. We use “leave it” for things that we don’t want ours to pay attention to and it works to get his focus off that object. We use “off” when we want him to get down from somewhere. You are doing fantastic. Kenzie is at an age that she seems to be thriving when working so this is a great time to train with her! Just find what works for you. Again, finds what works for you.
I can’t wait until the sheep lamb again!!
OMG, I'm so relieved to hear you say this. Realizing their is a problem is the first step. There are a multitude of issues going on. 1. Your sheep are dogged. And not in a good way. The dog's constant presence without any control by the dog has desensitized your sheep. 2. You are asking her to work far to many sheep for her skill level. 3. The two of your have no communication as a team. There's more than 3 problems. I'm just starting with the top 3. Solutions: 1. Limit your dog's access to sheep. The dog's access must be on your terms, not her's. 2. Get 4-5 yearling ewes set aside for her to work. A round pen would be ideal. 3. Walk your dog on a lead at a heel. And learn how to communicate with one another.
I think we can both agree you need to learn how to train your dog to heard. There are two video series I would recommend to you. 1. THE SHEPHERD'S PUP VOLUME 1 & 2
You can rent this at
Derek Scrimgeour www.bowwowflix.com 2. First steps in sheep dog training. You can buy it at www.ebay.com/itm/First-Steps-in-BORDER-COLLIE-SHEEPDOG-TRAINING-Herding/122683911860?hash=item1c9087eeb4:g:Mq8AAMXQMXRQ6JNS PM me if you want to talk.
I HATE hats too Jess! They ride up & won't stay on my big ole head! I tell myself it's because I have sooo many brains! lol
I use ear muffs ( the kind that go on the neck and up to the ears) on the outside to anchor my hat on my head. Otherwise, it rides up and exposes my ears to the cold. So annoying!
Subtle is a good choice of word to teach her to be calm and lay down. A hand gesture will enforce the command. Open palm, face down, at your waste make a sideways twisting motion is a good cue. She should eventually subtle with just the hand motion. Repeat, repeat repeat. Off is a good command to have her leave something alone.
Your amazing!!
Hey Sandi I love your videos. What I find helpful is sticking to one word that you can use in any setting. That way there is no confusion between you and your amazing dog. I think “stay”,”wait”, or “place” would be some good words to choose from. Consistency is key always make time to try and practice with her even if it’s just ten minutes every day. My grandmother has a border collie that I have trained to wait so she doesn’t bolt out of the front door if we are not ready to go out. It’s all about finding a balance with whatever word you choose and making sure that she understands that she has to make sure she is fulfilling the command that has been given. I hope this helps.
In general dogs respond to two syllable words so try to stick with that
Dogs can be trained at any age. There are many videos that will help you. Kinsley will be excellent. She is always eager to work.
Look up “One man and his dog” Tv program from the UK on TH-cam to see a lot about training a sheepdog.
Your doing great with her, she is a fantastic dog, I notice how she always looks to you, on the fashion show she was walking by your side looking at you to see what you wanted. Use words that will work for you. I’m not a professional, but I can say the words don’t always matter, I have lost my voice due to medical reasons, so all the words that I used with my dog became kinda useless as she couldn’t hear them, or they didn’t sound the same. So instead I now use different sounds, a click or a whistle for different situations, sometimes a loud noise (clap) just to get her attention can works wonders when my pup is fixated on something and I want her to look at me, works. Main thing is your doing great.
I'd love to send you a long letter on training her if you have an e-mail address I could use.
She has a mail stop
@@miriambertram2448 I dont know what that is.
@@Steveswolf po box
@@Steveswolf and I expect that anyone who decided to print something out put a stamp on it and mail it would be taken even more seriously than an email
@@miriambertram2448 do you know where I could find her PO box?
We trained our wolf/husky mixes with Russian words. Instead of words that we use in our regular language, we have special words that when they hear them, they know we're talking to them. Stop -> Stoy-et | Lay Down -> lay-zhut | No -> Nyet (went with general pronunciations because that's just easier) Just a few examples we use. Best of luck!
Just saw Kenzie down!! 🌼🌼 The word is “down”. Release could be your “go” followed by where. Loosen the tie so she can down and tell her to down. She’ll get it.Border Collies and Australian Shepherds learn down when they are not needed to work. What do you want her to do? Instinct.
Any word you choose works as long as she knows what you want her to do; with service dog I use sit, down and stay for what they are but I use even use the word cuddle for one action...always always always win with her or she thinks she is in charge and can do what she wants!!
I was taught 1 new “trick” per week and using repetition 10 times with a treat when done right is correct. For down he he was told down and when he laid down I said “beep” as soon as he was down and gave a treat, we moved then to he had to go down and stay until I said “ok” to get up and he got loves and a treat. He is dual trained now so he has learned many many “tricks” with the same
method.
Advice I learned was invaluable when I was training a dog. Add a hand signal while using basic commands. You can make them up, but they should be fairly large movements. Once they get it down you can use either words OR signals and they will respond. Invaluable when they are out of ear shot, you get laryngitis, or you need to not raise your voice.
For my bird dogs around birds that we don't want them to chase we use "that not yours" "enough" " settle" "that's enough". One thing that will help. Is working with down and stay before getting into the barn.. then start doing it around the machine and running it with out the sheep. Really praise her when she relaxes and lays down will help too!
"Lie down" is the first most important command. Everytime you make the "lie down" command
give her a treat and tell her "yes" in a happy voice. Treats can be any small piece of food even her kibble. This will take a long time for get used to and for her, not going to be overnight, may take weeks, just be patient and reward as much as you can. She will learn you are the leader and good things like snacks are coming only from you when she does something good. Blessings
Great input on help with pup. Glad you are asking for help. Talk to her! I use ' leave, heal, down, stay, wait, sit, out, come, no' Leave means get clear away. Heal is to stay with me. Down is to lay down (used with 'stay'), Stay is stay where you are and wait, Wait means just that when dog want to rush food or is pushing to do something. Come is to come here now followed by other commands. A herding dog training handbook with hand signs would greatly help you. My dog is a 15# mix of MinPin, Pug and Chi. She knows hand signals and all these commands + more. She's around a lot of livestock. Her rewards, when given, is praise and a piece of kibble cat food! She will kill for a cat food nugget. If you want your pup to become a partner, you have to focus on her. You can't let her blow through her commands, kindly call her back. She is way smart and eager to learn. She will never hate you!!! I do understand about you having divided focus!
Another point concerning your daughter. If she was working for any other employer, they would not let her wear tunes, just for safety's sake much less trying to communicate with her in all the barn noise. Since she is 'working' for you, Mom, maybe only one in. She is in training and as an employer, my rules are no earbuds, no cellphone on my time. Leave them in your rig. The other aspect of this is all the barn noise and she probably has to up the volume to compensate which is really damaging to her hearing. Sorry, I too am a Mom and employer and a dog owner. Just some thoughts. Sorry this is so long.
Down is the most important command! Build off from there,down will stop them from whatever activity they are doing. I use (that will do)to bring them to my side in place of heal. Most importantly it is consistently and repetition that are your friend when training. I have also learned exercise them then train. They catch on quicker after a good run or day of play. Good luck it’s a beautiful dog who looks more than willing to learn!
She looks like while being tied shes able to relax and is less stressed. A little pat or verbal praise while shes just laying down calmly will reinforce that calm awesome behaviour !!! Gread job you guys!!!!
Your doing it. Tie her the first few times give her a command to "stay" or what ever word you choose and let her know she did good when you untie her. The first time you let her off the tie when you do it give her the same command you did as you tied her up. If she runs....tie her up a couple more times.......she will learn. If your calm and in control she will get it.......Hugs and Prayers
One of my favorite commands the trainer taught us for our dog was "Park It". We'd put a bed, towel...any visual thing for them to lay on and say "Park It"..lots of pets and food rewards when they would stay in that area. It might help you to train her to "Park It" on a certain spot in the barn and that way when you give the command, she goes and stays there waiting for you to finish. Took our dog about 2 weeks to get it down. Might work 🤷♀️
Another go to command would be "steady" to get her attention then "down" or "back" or whatever you need. Use a calm voice but you can emphasize urgency by tone.
When she's tied up, you can use down and steady for her to settle. My friend had a Catahoula cross to herd his rodeo bulls and he would literally ,when she lost focus say "HEY" and point his fingers to his eyes, to make sure she understood she HAD to obey the commands without ever being mean to her. It was amazing. Good luck. Stay consistent with her.
Use “Nine” for No & “Foosh” for down, & “Kechi” for recall & “Stoop” for stay! that’s what I use for my SAR K-9s. Also teach hand signals! I know my words are different than others, but when there are other k9s in a disaster area or way out in the woods being given commands or jerks/thugs, my pups will obey me or my team mates only. Develop your commands along with the hand signals & use both at same time. Practice practice practice she’s still young, but just like a child she’ll come around! She’s really doing good & y’all make a great team!
Training my girls took repetition, specific command word for each thing you want. Reward her, rinse and repeat. You can train her. Just need to repeat what you want her to learn and be consistent. I know you hated tying her up but it will pay off in the end. Loving your videos and my favorite is always the little lambs getting excited and running, jumping around. Cuties.
My dog is mad for squirrels, the word I have found to work really well for him is "leave it". If I use that command he will actually ignore it. I use it for when we go on hikes and we pass another dog even. It took time! Also positive rewarding the good behavior worked really well for my dog. He's a working dog and wants to please you. Keep up the good work!
I love that dog, its always alert, looking very professional always around......doing nothing. I love it.
Our key words for the dogs are sit, stay, down, come those are the most used always use one word commands if possible and one syllable also reward good behavior as much as possible and if you have the time when shes not following commands stop correct her then proceed ignoring bad behavior is reinforcing it. She catches on quickly that's the breed in her she will get there be stern when working but dont let her feel you get stressed put her out or stop before it gets to that she will feed off of it.
When try to train my sheep dog I said that will do what I done for training is have them on a rope and walk along and say that will do and slowly increase the rope.
“Leave it” has worked well with my german shepherd. Experimenting with different words if kenzi is not getting it may help too. My dog never got “come” but he responds to “here” better.
For training, we use "leave it" alot if our dog is getting distracted or bothering something. It kind of means, whatever you are doing or thinking of doing, stop! I would also reinforce stay and wait. Before you open doors or want her to go somewhere, have her sit while you keep saying wait, waaaaiiit. If she charges the door and rushes out, close it before she gets out and try again. Lots of repetition. She'll get it!
With my hunting dogs if they get excited before the flush or approach when we aren’t in correct position we use the term Woah in a single tone voice I started training my youngest dog last weekend and it was all of ten minute and he knew the word and what it meant.
OMG shes so calm! If you channel their brain they eventually will focus and calm down. Good job! Positive reinforcement always helps like you petting her when shes calm that was great. Keep it up :)
training commands for a herding dog is different than a pet dog etc. here's some command words for you: Basic herding dog commands
Come-bye or just bye - go to the left of the stock, or clockwise around them.
Away to me, or just away or 'way - go to the right of the stock, or counterclockwise around them.
Stand - stop, although when said gently may also mean just to slow down.
Wait, (lie) down or sit or stay - stop, but remain with that contact on the stock...don't take it off by leaving.
Steady or take time - slow down.
Cast - gather the stock into a group. Good working dogs will cast over a large area. This is not a command but an attribute.
Find - search for stock. A good dog will hold the stock until the shepherd arrives. Some will bark when the stock have been located.
Get out or back - move away from the stock. Used when the dog is working too close to the stock, potentially causing the stock stress. Occasionally used as a reprimand.
Keep Away or Keep - Used by some handlers as a direction and a distance from the sheep.
Hold - keep stock where they are.
Bark or speak up - bark at stock. Useful when more force is needed, and usually not essential for working cattle and sheep.
Look back - return for a missed animal. Also used after a shed is completed and rejoined the flock or packet of sheep.
In here or here - go through a gap in the flock. Used when separating stock.
Walk up, walk on or just walk - move in closer to the stock.
Sandi - Great video. I read some of the comments below. Sounds like a fair amount of good advice in them. Take care. Be patient, and I'll bet she will respond. It's obvious she loves you and wants to follow your direction.
I used to tell my dogs " settle down" when they got too worked up. When your dog was tied up, and either sits down or lays down, you could tell her "sit" or "down" AS you see her do so -then praise her. It will re-inforce the commands she already knows. For the next time you tie her, perhaps a blanket ot rug for the dog to sit on will keep her more comfortable and she will understand this is " Her" spot. " Leave it" would be a good command for when she gets too interested in the sheep like when they are moving thru your gate system ( loading lambs into truck ), which made the sheep hesitate a few times as the dog was facing the sheep insead of behind them. She is young, and seems very eager to help, she just needs time.
Also she has you close to her so she does not feel like she has to escape, she loves being close to you!!
she learns by watching you. You just have to be consistent!! hang in there! You are doing great!
We worked with a 30 foot rope to get the dog to come and sit. We were told to pick a word that we never used. Front was our word for Beemer. It made him almost perfect. Good luck!
Sandy I’m not a trainer but the 4 most important commands I taught my Chesapeake Bay Were : Sit, stay, come and leave it. Leave it was meant for her to stop her from whatever.
I would use "leave it" to bring her focus off the sheep and back to you, and work on "place" to establish a target area you want her to stay in while you are working without her and need her to wait near you. A door mat may provide a nice visual for "place" in the barn, while still being easy to move and clean.