Played really loud, do high sensitivity speakers sound better?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- The Audiophiliac poses the question to Zu Audio speaker designer Sean Casey. Yes, he makes high sensitivity speakers, but his response may prove useful to any audiophile.
Hi, this is Sean from Zu. In this quick video with Steve I tried to answer the question without jargon and in a way that is easy for those into sound systems to wrap their heads around. But reading through a few of the comments posted, and putting myself within their point of reference, I feel there’s a bit more explaining to do as to way high efficiency generally equals lower distortion. As stated in Steve’s video, and making some assumptions about the jumping off, or in point of this question, with most other parameters being equal (radiating area, observed SPL and similar signal fidelity, better efficiency, and efficiency is not sensitivity) the more efficient the conversion of electrical power into acoustic power the lower the harmonic distortion. Yes, excursion and surface area, or rather radiating area, are two components within the equation. Another and with higher weighting is power transfer, which has less to do with membrane or mouth radiating area/excursion and a lot more to do with density differentials and electromechanical conversion. Horns for example have had a historical fundamental function to convert a high density source like a dynamic driver*, be it a metal alloy, paper or some composite and transfer that energy efficiently into the much low density of air-and yes, wave function is a leading criterion in the design of a good horn, and yes again, that too is a bit over simplified. Power transfer and net efficiency in a electromechanical transducer has these base factors in the equation, all hanging on wave functional usage: electrical to mechanical power conversion, membrane to air power transfer. The next step is to understand what efficiency really is, and I can say with even more certainty-there is yet no unified field theory and and thus no absolutes only truth relative to scale and context-how we playback and loudspeaker designers and users measure efficiency is only relativistic, if it weren’t you would see efficiency specified as an isotropic reference and when was the last time anyone in home or pro audio world noted a loudspeaker’s net efficiency in a ratio of electric to acoustic watts isotropic.
*A dynamic driver is the devise we generally know as a loudspeaker (speaker for short) the cone/basket/voice-coil assembly. But this is not a complete speaker, it needs the rest of the system to work within the desired application/performance, it needs a cabinet or horn, or baffle… in addition to other devices, a driver needs more than itself to perform. When perfectly designed and coupled-perfect being more of an idea or model-a dynamic driver will be seen by the electrical amplifier as resistive load, free of reactivity.
Hello Sean. You would understand why people are confused here. Firstly look at the title of this You-Tube video, 'do high sensitivity speakers sound better'. You clear it up by saying 'efficiency is not sensitivity'.Which begs the question was this video click-bait.
What utter rubbish! You have managed to use a lot of words there to say nothing. You would be slaughtered on DIYAudio for this. You well know that the only factor in the favour of HES regarding distortion is dynamic compression due to coil heating. This is not likely to be a factor in a appropriately sized speaker for the application.
Distortion is down to a great many things, and HES's are lucky to happen to often use design choices that support a perceived lower distortion sound when played loud. Paper cones being one of them. Break up modes are internally damped well with doped paper, the opposite of a metal cone.
ZU speakers have the advantage of a practically full range 10 inch driver covering the critical mid. The swept area is very large, so output capability for 700-7000hz is very high without much xmax. This keeps distortion low.
Off axis performance is the trade off of running that driver so high. A cupped sound to the upper mid is unavoidable with this design.
Now, if you used the Audax TW034..... your speakers would be a hell of a lot better in this regard. Modified with a 10mm hole in the middle and a enlarged back chamber, combined with a waveguide and it would be even better! but then its a fair bit bit more than the $10 thing your using at the moment.
True experts explain complicated things in simple terms. Don't obfuscate, the hive mind is too powerful my friend.
@@lancebartlett3892 Which speakers do you design?
@@lancebartlett3892 zu voice coils are 'neutrally hung' which means voice coil is of same height as air gap. X-max is basically 0. That is a recipe for harmonic distortion, something Zu says their speakers excel in not producing.
In order to produce X dB at a particular frequency, a particular cone area A has to move by a fixed amount, say Z mm. This is independent of efficiency/ sensitivity. So, if I replace your 10 inch woofer with a 80dB sensitive woofer of exact same cone area in the same cabinet, both has to move by same amount for same loudness irrespective of power required.
You are misleading people to believe that high efficiency woofers need to move less to produce same spl, which is kind of evil. Claims of lower harmonic distortion is also false. Yes, lower current lowers harmonic distortion but your woofers have 0 x-max being "neutral hung" and will cross 82%BL within a couple of mm. Distortion may be comparable with 2X 6inch speaker models.
If you don't want to mislead anyone, please talk about power compression benefits of HES.
I love my Klipsch Herseys. Driving them with 8 watts of tube power that is capable of running you out of the room. Crystal Clear sound and enjoyable speakers. I would guess Zu would have a similar sound.
Klipsch is garbage!
I come back to the vids just to read the comments. Pro Tip: When you come across something particularly riveting, click on the person's name and take a look at his liked videos. Adds a whole 'nother dimension to the process.
Like in your case we see nothing - a very deep dimension to see.
Always known this for years. It’s good from time to time to refresh people memory. A 70- watt amp is more than enough power with speakers of 102-104 dB sensitivity One watt one meter.
Do not confuse loudness with clarity, I can name many lower sensitivity speakers that have better sound quality than these overrated high sensitivity speakers. Don't be fooled, a speaker with a 87db sensitivity can play plenty loud with a 100 watt per channel amp. These people that think you need 100db + sensitivity are uneducated because that level of loudness is way too loud for most home applications.
WHAT ARE REALISTIC VOLUME LEVELS?
www.audiodrom.net/en/as-we-see-it-tips-thoughts/74-realistic-volume-levels
I think he's trying to say that distortion is directly related to cone excursion, a philosophy shared by many. And I might agree if we're talking just driver distortion. I'm always amazed by the lack of cone movement on my Cornwall III's woofers when they sound like they're pounding. Unfortunately there's a lot more to speaker "distortion" than just cone movement.
I think he alludes to that with the "most other things being equal" caveat. Linear distortion has to rise with cone excursion due to changes in spring stiffness, magnetic flux etc.
I don't agree. In the mid 1950s what was called The New York Audio League which evolved into the AES took 4 AR 1 speakers and 4 150 watt Western Electric amplifiers to Riverside Church for a live versus recorded experiment with an Aolean Skinner pipe organ. That is when that low efficiency design established itself as the world standard. It typically had 5 percent harmonic distortion at 30 hz. Later variants of the same driver had 1 percent. This in part is why Acoustic Research captured one third of the entire hi fi speaker market in the United States in its heyday. No other company ever came close. It was so accurate it was used by medical schools to teach students what different heart sounds should sound like. It beat out monster horn speakers like Altec Voice of the Theater, Klipschorn, large systems from JBL, Tannoy etc. The inherent advantages of that design still apply today.
This was addressed around many times and other than a narrow range of frequencies it was shown horn loaded speakers actually had higher distortion.
Thank you for the history lesson on ARs,I didn't know that story...
I have a Grundig console that has high efficiency drivers and electrostatic tweeters. It maybe has 10 watts of amplifier power, which sound more like 100. This explanation makes perfect sense.
I have always found a system and speakers have a sweet spot. It may be wide but it's there. You know, loud enough to get the speakers full range moving but not so loud for distortion. The bottom line is though there is no replacement like numbers. A couple subs sound better then one, more mids sound better then one, etc. I love my Infinity RS IIIa's which comes with 4-10s', 2 Polydome Mids and 2 Emit tweeters for the set and thought there was not much better in my price range until I found another set of the speakers and sat them next to the originals. Talk about double the fun.
Zu Audio speakers are very nice.
Twenty years ago, when I bought my first low-end HiFi, entry level Infinity speakers, the cones of that speaker realy moved around sometimes... Years later when I had my entry level Linn speakers, I wanted to show my son how speakers work, we were close to the speaker and I said lock to the cone... I was surprised, that cone actually didn't moved at all. And we played the bass loud... :-)
It means that they are properly loaded and they have no problem with doeppler effect - that is rare and funamental .. But if they are type ported bassreflex I would expect even slight maximum movement near low range which could be observed with sinus gen..
Not buying it...
For different drivers to be able to produce the same SPLs at the same frequencies, they have to move in and out the same distance. If one 8" driver is producing lower SPL than another, the one that is not as loud is not moving as much.
It is basic physics.
If two 8" drivers are both producing 93 db, and one is producing it with 1watt/meter, and another requires 2watt/meter to get 83 db, the drivers will still be moving in and out the same amount.
pandstar “All things being equal”, when it comes to SPL vs surface area, you’re right, it’s simple physics... the cone has to move in order to move the air so we can hear it. My system uses moderate efficiency speakers with active filters and linear solid state amplifiers, it plays loud very nicely indeed.
thank you. I didn't feel like typing this out myself.
I used to think like you but don't anymore. I have two 18 inch DVC subs in my living room sealed. Exactly the same subs and 4 different amplifiers. 1st was a solid state putting out 1k into each at 4 ohm, the drivers would move in and out a lot but not seem to deliver much spl, no2 was a class d Chinese clone putting in 3800w into 4 ohm, again the cones would move a lot but with some distortion at high levels with good spl. 3rd was a xls2502 bridged, sounded trash didn't hardly move the cone utter rubbish. The 4th time I went for a proper amp. FFA10K. 3500 at 4 ohm into each sub. Loader than any of those 3 to clip with 0 distortion and the cone moves less than the first 2.... I spoke to the amp manufacturer and they said its because their amp is very high current with very good damping. essentially it creates a higher magnetic field which in turn controls the driver a lot more. My point here is that extra excursions are certainly not extra sound or spl. If that is the case how can a horn burst your ears without very little movement.
Gotta love the 21th Century where one random guy's opinion is worth just as much a science...
Yuu can now buy 2" tiny super woofers with high cone excursions. Imagine how much bass you would hear from a 2" driver if the cone didn't move.
My speakers are the opposite with sensitivity of 86db and i love them.
My speakers are 87db sensitivity and they sound much better than garbage Klipsch.
@@thegoat164 mine are 88db, they sound really good
Much prefer low efficiency acoustic suspension speakers with high watt amps. IMO better tone, timber and realistic sound. High efficiency speakers sound too sterile for me.
ive never heard anybody say that ever
High efficiency speakers are so OVERRATED it's not even funny! Most lower sensitivity speakers have better sound quality than garbage Klipsch.
@@nickparkin8527 i us low eff , air suspension speakers and they sound much much better than these modern hi-eff jobs
this isnt very true.. a tad misleading. that thing where the less cone movement is better sensitivity is only due to the tuning of the enclosure. when the enclosure/port it is tuned to for specific frequencies or a range of frequencies, the driver will have been optimally loaded. i.e. the air inside the enclosure, will not need a lot of energy to produce the frequencies its tuned to.
so, when the driver gets the signals in the range that the enclosure is tuned to, it doesnt need to move as much to get a big output in sound. the driver, being loaded, doesnt move as much, cause the energy is being transformed into sound very efficiently.
when the driver gets signals with frequencies outside of the tuned range of the enclosure, it isnt loaded as much, and therefore isnt damped as much. so, because it doesnt have the air in the enclosure holding it back, it moves quite a lot, while not transfering the mechanical energy into the air, and into sound.
the sensitivity of the driver and the sensitivity of the speaker(driver/enclosure/port combination) are separate things.
if u get a speaker that is very sensitive, it may be in a small range of frequencies. for it to be sensitive in a wider range of frequencies, it my not be as sensitive at any specific frequency as compared to a high frequency speaker.
i come from the realm of car audio, and different drivers, tend to have different designs, with different sensitivities. these differences in sensitivties are due to the materials and design used to make the drivers. a lower sensitivity driver will not give as much sound output compared to a high sensitivity driver, and the excess energy goes into heat, which leads to mechanical wear when driven regularly to max output.
when buying speakers, i usually check the specs of the drivers, to see the Bl and the sensitivities. the more sensitive they are, the better the enclusre/port can be tuned to get a wider range of frequencies they can produce sound at compared to speakers using lower sensitivity drivers .
Is this applicable to choosing speakers for your specific musical tastes?
This is interesting, I have speakers that Mr Guttenberg recommends, the Elac debut b5, albeit a budget model. These are low impedance (4 ohms) and relatively inefficient at 86db yet they sound amazing in my humble system. Another thing that puzzles me is that he explains that visual indication of harmonic distortion is a cone that moves a lot at relatively high volumes, something which can be seen with a lot of low sensitivity speakers. Well, one thing I notice with the b5 is that the cone moves very little at high volumes, especially compared to my previous speakers which had a sensitivity of 88 db at 8 ohms impedance.
Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of budget model speakers here in the UK have a higher sensitivity rating, but here they suggest that higher end speakers are usually more sensitive.
In the light of what these two are explaining here I should have seen the opposite effect. Am I just witnessing great system synergy or are there other factors at work I have to take into account?
It does seem to be true that really cheap (DIY) drivers can be really inefficient compared to the drivers in the completed more expensive speakers.
Frequency modulation distortion low frequency diaphragm motion can be heard in the midrange..my jbl 4312 had this issue cause the crossover was so high for the woofer
There are many roads to heaven speakers should always be amatter of personal preference but lest we forget high efficiency + high watts =hearing damage the peak that’s allwreet =
A week after I bought my 200+200 w amp my ears were ringing, so I made sure I was more careful with the volume after that.
So s Vega are the best speakers in the wold. ?
You can answer that by remembering the "if most things are equal then..." part, as without it it's misrepresentation of the statement. It's also you who made the definition of best speakers to mean "being able to play higher with less distortion".
Driver excursion is entirely based on driver area, not sensitivity. You don’t see the woofer panels move in giant low efficiency speakers like Apogees or Magneplanars.
Good point, but I think Sean was referring to cone woofers.
I think that this has to do with the internal volume, cone design and other parameters, I am not convinced that woofer cone movement=distortion
Yes. Come movement = distortion. In fact, Xmax is the point where you reach 10% distortion. For a specific SPL, a more efficient transducer will need less power but the movement will be the same as a less efficient one.
You're all missing the basic physics: SPL is generated by moving a volume of air. The more volume you move, the higher the SPL. So, for any given driver area and any given SPL, the cone excursion will be identical. Let's say it takes a 10" driver and 1/4" of cone movement to produce a specific SPL. With a low efficiency driver, it will take more power to move the cone 1/4" than with a high efficiency driver. But the 1/4" of cone motion will be exactly the same at the same SPL. High efficiency drivers don't make sound via magic. They make it the same way as low efficiency drivers: With cone motion, multiplied by the effective cone area of the driver. Volume of air moved is proportional to SPL.
loudness is confused for clarity... between a 2 grand cd player and a 200 dollar cd player I also tend to want to crank up the mid fi CD player while the 2 grand cd player sound perfectly clear and fine at lower volumes.
If this phenomenon applies when music is played "really loud," how loud is that? If it doesn't apply at just "loud" levels, then a lot of people probably don't have anything to worry about.
Well first off, air.... The more air moved, the louder the perceived noise. How many objects do you know of that make noise of some sort without moving?
So my klipach speakers are very Efficient they will sound better then my JBL'S that are not as Efficient ????? I've been using my JBL'S I I'm going to put my klipach back inline and see what happens the only thing I don't like about my klipach is they are only a two way and the JBL'S are a 3 way
Dude it's Klipsch
+Andrew Crain
"So my Klipsch speakers are very Efficient they will sound better then my JBL'S that are not as Efficient ??????"
There are a lot of other factors other than efficiency that can affect the sound. Brand, for instance. But I can explain this apparent phenomenon I got some lounge speakers and some PA speakers (with different brand and type drivers in each pair). At the same volume level the PA speakers are like twice as loud as the longe speakers (so they are way more efficient). But they also have way more power handling, and never sound overdriven or forced when ran really loud. So they sound way better than the less efficient longe speakers when they are turned up loud, but the lounge speakers sound way better when at low volume cos there is more bass in them for that plush lounge sound and the PA speakers have rather minimal bass (just enough). So when it's really loud the bass isn't like "papping out" so much and you can get more volume. But at low volume you need a bit of bass boost with the PA speakers which fucks up the voice sound, so I listen to my PA speakers with bass on neutral (anyway) at low volumes. Also the transient response of small drivers is better in the med than large PA drivers and so the lounge speakers sound better at low volumes than the PA speakers (even when the lounge speakers are less efficient). But I got the big drivers for the PA speakers for the sake of having a 3" voice coil so I could mount tweeters inside (for pure point-source sound). You can't usually buy lounge drivers with a voice coil large enough to insert tweeters inside the voice coil cavity. The tweeters I used for my PA speakers are bullet tweeters, set inside the 3" cavities and they are really efficient and the treble sounds free&easy (not forced) even at heaps of volume. And the large drivers score way better in the med (when driven at higher volumes) cos the watts override the high weight of the 10" drivers and force the cone against the affects of the poor transient response (like a heavy car needs a powerful engine to accelerate quickly). So even though my PA speakers are twice as efficient as my longe speakers, they sound better then the lounge speakers when ran really loud. Why are the big drivers more efficient than the smaller drivers even when they are heavier? That's cos they are bigger, more cone area = more efficiency. And my PA drivers have like 8" diam magnets, I suppose that makes it more efficient too. And the bullet tweeters handle like 200 w and are still more efficient than my lounge tweeters cos the bullet tweeters have a large diaphragm and they are horn loaded. I ran one without the horn and it was like half the volume. The horn also makes it sound good.
It depends on which model of Klipsch and JBL's. I have a pair of Klipschorns (K Horns) and a pair of Tekton Double Impacts. Both are a lot better than 99% of JBLs...to my ears anyway. It's very subjective. I've always liked a high S/N ratio speaker.
Waiting for you to talk about acoustics. i've stopped listening to my speakers in my new room because its a tiny cube that sound horrible and i don't know what to do other than those very expensive wall treatments? i even bought smaller speakers which didn't help
Build or have someone build you a few acoustic panels. (48" x 24") each panel at least 2" thick. Experiment with placement around the room to tame the rooms unwanted effects. (Just a start). Once you have a bit more budget, focus on base-trapping units for your room corners. Hope this helps.
Too short. I want more.
The more I see Sean the more I.like.him, a true enthusiast.
I recently sold off my Magnepan / Parasound Halo system which ran me $10K. It was an amazing system however it was high-powered and very inefficient. Magnepan’s 86db and 4ohm to 2ish ohm dips is as bad as it gets. I’m now looking into ZuAudio speakers with a cheap Yaqin tube amp and pairing them with a tight non-ported sub. This time around efficiency and details.
That guy doesn't know shit. For a speaker of the same size to reach the same spl at the same frequency, the movement of the cone is exactly the same. More efficient speakers are the total opposite, they move more air with less power.
What is playing in the background?
Hello,,, PLEASE tell me something... is it possible to use one boombox speakers with an other boombox stereo?.. the speakers I had on my boombox are 4.5W speakers but what I want to use are 9.5W boombox speakers. Will the speakers work?
Yes.
A great deal of misinformation here, cones must move!
Well, I do not have audiophile gear, But My racks are the same as Yours.
I'm too poor to be a Zukeeper. Guess I'll have to be happy with my A25s
A25s were ahead of their time. Sound good now too but are little long in the tooth by comparison.
How about showing us rather than just talking about it?
He builds & sells great speakers..... that's how he shows us.
Don't play loud music if your neighbours can hear it. Unwanted music coming through the walls is not what your neighbours want and for them it is very low quality indeed! If you wish to listen to loud music use headphones, then it is only your own hearing which is at risk.
I first developed a love of headphones when I was living in London and always I had neighbours on the other side of walls and above and below me. I would never impose my music on them, so I got myself a pair of really good quality headphones and a rather fine little amp to drive them.
Yes, speakers are great, but don't play them loud if it disturbs your neighbours :)
It would be nice to have timesheet when all neighbours are out The thing is "if it disturbs" Asked them once or two and got response that it is rather easy and no problem. Hm.. it means they know what they are talking about... My headphones (last times I use Sennheiser HDR160) sound exceptional, could be even adviced but what to say - headphones do change. I use them for music of from computer and they operate direct from sound card or by choice from preamp with slight correction . - no power amp involved. But for LPs, tapes, very good CDs only tube amp and speakers - no way. .
You are a kind and considerate person. We need more in this world. Good for you mate!
...which is one of the reasons I live in the country.
You are not my dad!!!
This is very offensive. I feel like he's just making things up. A lot of condescension and arrogance. I suppose that is what it takes to sell 70 year old speaker designs with parts made by Wham-O.
Ummm... all Zu parts are made in house, here in USA, and Casey is like the coolest guy, full of information. Maybe you are just threatened by someone using big words?? Casey lives & loves this stuff. As a new owner of his cheapest Omen DW's, I am a believer, and at $1000/pr it's the most amazing deal in Hi-Fi. True full-range easy to drive speakers for $1k. Yep, surely Casey is the idiot.
Everything is wrong with that explanation.
Hmm..... and yet i don't see a writeup from you, enlightening us with "your truth". Casey is 100% right on.... maybe his speakers are not to your liking, but he is still correct.
Shame on you Steve for promoting inaccuracies.
not even wrong
It's like cars. A high efficiency speaker is like an old sports car, light and agile with good acceleration. A modern high power speaker is like a modern car, fat, heavy, powerful but less nippy and not as much fun!
"I use zu's as my reference speakers"
LOL
Lenny Lennyfaic I think he said “one” of my reference speakers. He also frequently references his Kef LS50’s and magnepan.7’s
No, you and Steve said things that are untrue. Steve doesn't understand physics or electronics, but that is no excuse for peddling falsehood. I don't believe that you and Steve have a corrupt arrangement, but that you have harmed viewers.
The physics of energy transfer from driver surfaces to air is simple, aside from cone's surface deviation from pistonic action, boundary-layer effects, baffle effects, and the behavior of surrounds. Aside from the above complications, two cone woofers of the same size and shape must move with equal displacement and acceleration to create the same sound. You claimed otherwise.
The choices made to create a speaker of a certain efficiency should have been the focus of discussion, but you both chose to cheapen the discussion by making ridiculous, false statements. I urge you and Steve to *remove* this offending video and replace it with a responsible piece.
lower the ohms .....higher sensitivity ,EFFICIENCY and better sound///// PERIOD
Making a lower impedance speaker does not make it more efficient.... it just draws more current from your amp with the same voltage, and thus more power. But that's not efficiency.
Эй! Ваша болтовня не заменит голос спикеров. Отдохните и дайте послушать акустические системы, пожалуйста.
It is not necessary to talk much in vain. In addition to your vocals, I want to hear fragments of jazz, blues, etc.
Got halfway through the video, closed it, grabbed my oscilloscope distortion meter calibrated microphones and frequency generator/analyzer. This video is so wrong it makes me want to unsubscribe! This guy is just trying to sell a product, he mentions a kick drum sound many times and many of y’all should know you have to move some air to reproduce low frequencies, especially at the volume of or greater then a actual kick drum. All speakers that I own that don’t move much and are high efficiency (both home and live sound) have greater distortion in the bass area and are harder to get a big bass sound out of despite the efficiency. Distortion depends on the speaker design.
Steve, please respect basic physics. After watching this you lost 90% of your credibility.
this is just not correct.
Write these words down and hang them on your wall !!! 🥸☝
A speaker with a higher sensitivity HAS LESS TRANSIENT DISTORTION, and has a wider (at a given level of distortion) dynamic range, more accurate transmission of timbres and rhythmic basis. It’s just that the times gradually came when women began to suppress men and henpecked husbands appeared. For them and more for their wives, they began to create small speakers with tiny speakers (which have a low, resonant frequency and very poor, low sensitivity).
This is very offensive. I feel like he's just making things up. A lot of condescension and arrogance. I suppose that is what it takes to sell 70 year old speaker designs with parts made by Wham-O.