Should You Buy Sensitive Speakers? Uh ... Whut?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ค. 2024
- What prospective speaker buyers should know: sensitivity and efficiency; manufacturer specifications vs. standardized, objective measurements; sound pressure level; dB, watts, and volts; in-room vs. anechoic; Hoffman's Iron Law; some noteworthy sensitive speakers.
00:00 Introduction
00:26 Efficiency and sensitivity explained
03:41 Impedance and ohms rating
04:13 Example manufacturer specs
06:48 Comparing speakers: ADS, Tannoy, and AR
07:44 What's a dB? Sound pressure level in decibels
09:22 Comparing ADS L730, Tannoy Monitor Gold, and Acoustic Research AR4x
10:52 Watts or volts? 1 W vs. 2.83 V (rms)
12:29 Pros, cons, and pitfalls of shopping for sensitive speakers
13:45 Hoffman's Iron Law
15:15 Hi-fi evolution of speaker sensitivity and amplifier power from tubes to solid state
19:13 How to compare speaker sensitivity across makes and models
21:44 Bass: What you want and how to get it
23:37 Examples of high-sensitivity speakers
28:45 How makers fudge the numbers with psychoacoustics
34:42 The bottom line for bass, box size, and efficiency
35:18 Another comparison: Hartley Zodiac 1B and Wharfedale W70D
37:11 Do I want high-sensitivity speakers?
39:49 No free lunch!
41:15 Take-home points - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![[TH] VCT Pacific Stage 2 - Week 4 Day 3 // GEN vs TS | PRX vs ZETA](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nspkjQuZve0/mqdefault.jpg)
I knew my speakers were sensitive when I played "Brians song" and they started crying.
Oh, dear! But what can you say about a speaker who loved Mozart ... and the Beatles?
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi they are PRETTY sensitive. Ok,. if they tremble during "requiem" ...
I've owned my Klipschorns for 44 years now their bass responce is of biblical proportions they hit you in the chest you really feel the music at any volume. I'm using all tube amplification 50 wats per channel and these amps are over 40 years old with no tone controls . This system can and will scare the hell out of people upon concert volume demonstration . The realism can be unsettling to most listeners . At modest levels the musicality is sublime ,not bad for a speaker that's been made now for 78 years. 44 years ago I spent almost every weekend auditioning speakers of all different designs and manufacture that's when there were many HI FI shops around in the end I chose the KEF 105.2 but there was one more store left and they were the only one in town that carried the Klipsch line up . Well that last stop changed everything I thought about music reproduction and what it should be . Went home thought about the Cornwall's and went back the next day and bought the Klipschorns . I do admire other designs and own other speakers but still after all this time my Klipschorns are the finest things I've ever purchased .
I expect that the issue of "not great bass response" with K-horns, then, is one of placement, and maybe wall construction. You must have yours properly placed in a proper corner. I've thought lately of what my father must have been thinking when he first toured the house I grew up in. In the corners where he put his EV cabinets, the walls were 12' (or something like that) solid cedar panelling. He did have tone controls on his preamp and kept the bass turned way down to compensate for the bass boost provided by the walls.
They sound like a teacher yelling into a bullhorn. Klipschorns are a acquired taste. Kind of like a turd sandwich. Sold mine within a week of buying them
@@lexbarton3196 So you don’t like horn loaded speakers. 🔊 Many concert venues use them though. So what are your 2 favorites?
@@lexbarton3196why did you buy such a poor sounding loud speaker in the first place
@@hanksta34. Going to a concert and listening to a band broadcasting through horn loaded speakers at 50’ or more has absolutely nothing in common with listening to music in your music room. Horn loaded speakers sound like crap from 5’ - 20’
Loved the deep dive into the trade offs between high sensitivity vs bass output. I solved that dilemma with a subwoofer. I have a pair of heresy IVs (Very sensitive) that I run with a Rel Ti5 Subwoofer. The combo is sublime. A low powered tube amp paired with a pair of sensitive speakers will get you the dynamics of the high efficiency speakers, the tube amp will add the harmonics and the sub will give you all the bass you’ll ever want. Dial it in to your liking. Want a lot of bass, put the sub in a corner. Blend it in with the cross over on the back of the sub. Trust me, 2.1 with high efficiency speakers is the way to go. Stereo nirvana.
Sage advice. Thank you!
The “2.1…is the way to go” reference is the watts per channel of the tube amp or something else?
@@hanksta34 2.1 meaning, left channel, right channel, plus a subwoofer. My dad got me into audio gear in the 70’s and I’ve been an audiophile/gear head ever since. I finally found the sound I had been chasing when I paired high efficiency speakers with a subwoofer. Back about 4 years ago now. It’s the best of both worlds! Low volume or high volume, clean clear highs and sweet low bass. Highly recommended.
Same here tube amp, focal aria speakers %89.somthing and a Bowers and Wilkins sub. I had to laugh at myself when I ducked once at a tone just behind my head.
Great video I really appreciate when you break down the math and things, to answer to what you said about subwoofers, yes they generally have low pass inside for sub frequencies. A feature I don’t see much now in the current powered subs, but I saw in some of the older powered subs from the 1990s maybe early 2000s , is RCA low level outputs with high pass filters, to go to an external amp for satellite speakers . I have used them a few times with a tube amp I borrowed just to experiment with, I thought IMHO it was very good results, as the amp seemed to work less hard. I used an older 15” definitive Technology powered sub from mid 90’s and a few Velodynes with the same high pass feature. The velodynes were a favorite to me , the other seem to induce slight hum into the the amp being fed from high pass out! Could have been a bad cap within the Def tech’s internal amp, it was 25 yrs old at the time. But I have found those features useful in subs when using a great quality but lower powered amplifiers on the main speakers and I recommend them quite often to people set on using their tube amps in systems . Any how great videos , very educational!!!
My Focal Kanta No.3 are 91db 8 ohm (dips to3). These replaced my ADS L880s. They are powered by a 175 W Simaudio Moon W5.3 HK RS Stereo Power Amplifier. I get more base than I could ask for.
Could sit down with a cooler of beers and talk this crap with you all weekend long! Loved the rambling all over the place- thanks!
Another variable is the frequency of the test tone you use for the 1 meter/1 watt test. The standard is, I think, 1 kHz. No surprise there; it's 1khz/1 watt/1 meter. The frequency of the test tone is necessary before you can know the precise speaker impedance for this test, and that can swing wildly (my speakers have a very low impedance at 80 hz, but go as high as 8 ohms at higher frequencies). So one would have to find 1 kHz on the speaker's published impedance curve, and do the math with 2.83. Point being, plenty of room for monkeying around by manufacturers. But no one should believe that a speaker's impedance rating applies to all frequencies; that is only a "nominal" impedance rating.
a good application for a low ppowered tube amp might be the Golden Ear line of speakers that have the built in powered subwoofer. actually some VERY good speakers.
My understanding is:
1. Speaker's efficiency is db at 1m or SPL at 1W.
2. Speaker's sensitivity (it is in correlation with driver-s specs) depends on cone weight in the grams, excursion capability of diaphragm in the mm and the power of the magnet in Tesla unit - the last one also plays a role at driver's accuracy, the first two how the driver is fast sensitive. So it is between reaction time and control of the reactions of the driver-s. This is very clear and audible at full range drivers or with subs and that's why - due to powerful magnets - quality one's are much more expensive + quality of other materials of course.
At multidriver's speaker this is a bit more complex (driver's combination + crossover), but you have to see each driver's specs, how they behave and then do digital simulation of expected results.
Saying that, each speaker should come with full driver's specifications. But the whole package is important, not just data.
If your hobby is making speakers then such data are very important if you want to make a quality speaker depending on the design - type of speaker. Just efficiency data is far insufficient.
I enjoyed your discussion on this topic. It has frustrated me that companies that build speakers and amplifiers have entered into this game with their specifications. I have no doubt that it is a result of marketing games to draw un-informed consumers. I think prior to the 80’s that most companies were a bit more honorable and gave specifications that were more accurate. But then the power wars started and that combined with price competition moved companies to be more creative with their specifications to make their products more appealing to the consumer.
I have been using 2a3 SET amps in my home for a long time, and I don’t use huge horns or anything like that. I had a couple different pairs of PrAc speakers that weren’t crazy efficient and they were a great sounding combination. Granted my room wasn’t large, and I don’t try to wake up the neighbors. My normal listening level is 65- 85 db. These speakers are rated at 87 db. So if I hit a little bit more than one watt peak it is all good.
Madisound has this kit that has been tempting me. It appears to be an honest 92db one speaker driven. So 95db for a pair. The Uluwatu, is a 2.5 way kit that uses six 5” SB woofer’s and one tweeter to provide good sensitivity and good low frequency extension. So with two watts, you could reach 98db. That is pretty loud in my opinion.
I'm a delighted, new subscriber and I think you've done a fine job on this topic. I have spent the last few days working through efficiency, SPL, unrelated equations. These are quite precise unlike the manufacturers ratings. I think the only reasonable option is to find speakers you want that have been tested by the same publication. As you noted, Erin's Audio Corner and Stereophile are two standouts in this regard. Thanks for the great work!
You're welcome! And thanks!
_Outstanding_ discussion! Nice job...for people looking for their 'end game' speakers it's tough to know which way to go.
You do explain this well. I'm not an engineer but have had many speakers over the years as a avid hifi nut. I too lean towards the world of efficiency in speakers. That way you reduce the load on the amplifier so you can work towards a way less complex amp. Or if you have a powerful amp the all important headroom is increased. I have a pair of Jbl L112. These are relatively efficient but they like the 130 watts per channel of the Accuphase E305 l connected to them. I play moderately loud and I typically use 5 to 30 watts perchannel in a small space. Some very high end speakers have these crazy phase angles that require bags of power at 2 to 4 ohms. If you have the money to buy a gryphon amp that can deliver 2 ohms and bags of current great for example ..I don't but a mates huge gyphon can deliver 1200 watts into 1 ohm. Even at crazy levels this monster never stresses out. I like the idea of adding subwoofers to efficient speakers. Many will scoff but if you dial them in properly they are nothing but an asset.
I was concerned about this subject because I got my first tube amp this week, a Cayin MT-12N EL84EH integrated. It's rated at only 10 wpc and I was putting it in my secondary system with Wharfedale Diamond 12.0 speakers which are stated as 85dB sensitivity (2.83V@1M) and a suggested 20 watt minimum. I had been running them with my old B&K Sonata pre-amp and Adcom GFA-535 II amp which worked pretty well. But I was pleasantly surprised and a bit shocked when right off the bat the thing not only had bookoo volume but also sounded great, with the best bass I'd heard from it, even with my Yamaha A-S3200 amp. Even playing mellow music it's way too loud for me at the 12 o'clock position and sounds very clean. Maybe one day I will try it with my Zu Audio DW6 speakers, which by the way sound excellent no matter how they measure, lol.
An entertaining and accurate (from a physicist perspective) explanation of cheating loudness, I really enjoyed it 🙂
That was awesome !..
last yr i went insane trying to find desktop speakers that had lower fr and had higher sensitivity as well. i just didn’t know any better/ how to think about things yet. i wanted something to work w a 35 wpc vintage amp too. i think i took it all to literally or not sure. was trying to not underpower the speakers too so bought i higher powered amp. also difficult to find. vintage that has closer to 100 wpc but then again. i may have been over concerned w that amp-to-speaker relationship.
I am against government in almost everything they are involved in but someone needs to come up with a standard for all audio specs. This and not having much free time is why I got out of home audio back in the early 90's but now have the time but will not spend stupid money chasing my tail. The audio companies would sell more stuff if they weren't cloaked in a fog. I don't trust any of them. I use 5 subs for bass with high pass and mini dsp to calibrate. None of my subs are the exact same model.
You explain a lot of things, quite well. I just settled for a shade less than 70s The Who volume. My house/room size limits volume that everything getting shaken: making undesired racket. Glad you have the space and resources to explore to your hearts content. The plus for me your findings simply explained.
Thanks! My dad's system similarly had a "rattle the windows" problem, but those windows were 12' panes, floor to ceiling. I did have issues with my Wharfedales causing things in the room to buzz. In my living room, I stuck some neoprene tape insulation to the back of some of the pictures on the back wall to keep them from rattling.
This was fun to ride along, and there is nothing wrong about your clues. What I missed was pointing out the biggest benefit of higher sensitivity speakers, that is you can enjoy the full music spectrum with a certain dynamic at a lower dB-level.
I guess, different kind of music favorite different speakers. That's why maybe most audio enthusiasts actually own different pairs of speakers.
One way to get a higher efficency speaker, that probably still will be big, but not huge and going down to 40Hz, could be a speaker with a double 6 to 8 inch woofer. At least that speaker wouldn't need to be 15'' wide
Good job explaining I'm always shooting for 115 db as to not wast power especially in a prius
During the eighties my standart 3-way model had ~ 91dB/W/m. Audax bass and mid cone paper driver (coated) and the MB Titan
dome tweeter; with ~ 65L bass reflex for bass and terminated line for mid. Carefully stiffened and dampend. Crossover was 18dB/oct
butterworth with Z-lin and level adjustments. Crossover was around 600 and 3600 Hz.
Basicly this speaker was constructed for the (back then) Kenwood hit poweramps M1/M1A/M1D in rooms with at least 25 sqm and a
rooms hight no less then 2,3m with a rectangular basis and no less than 4m for the small side to accomodate decent "free standing"
of the speakers.
This speaker could easily offer clean sound untill the overload circuit of the poweramp switched it off. You could realy "bath" in sound
on a level where you had to scream into the ear of the person standing next to you to be able to communicate without having a feeling
that it was to loud or unpleasant .And the sound was at this level fully detailed,dynamic,spatially correct and clean.
I got this speaker also auditionend in the largest local store back then and it was only topped in soundquality by industrial speakers
(active ones btw with smart feedbacklooping) that were over 10 times the cost. I even was asked two decades later by a chance encounter
with the boss of that store if i still build speakers....LOL. But at that time i was a family man and had other priorities entirely.
Well,that was in the eighties.
Recently i tried to lift this construction into the 21. century (with different chassis). However,todays drivers available to DIYers are of
way (!) lower SPL,although they are better on THD. Back than those speaker were around 2,5k a pair on parts. Needless to say that today
you have to pay more than double that to come even close - and still the SPL is inferior.
Of course there are 2-ways.But 2-ways are limited by physical "hard" borders when it comes to dynamics and THD on higher listening levels.
Very few stretch this borders. Like the DeVores Orang Utan for example. But those are pricewise in a complete different ballpark and they
use especialy made chassis by SEAS. Imho the DeVores are very good for the best class a and tube amps out there,but back in the day i
started this as a budget project. Wanting to see (and hear) what is possible on a price level that is reachable for a common person.
Well,i came to the conclusion that while chassis became better,they also became way more expensive and thanks to the fact that amplifier
output power isnt a problem anymore the chassis producers on average went for the lower SPL and lower THD way.
You get decent quality for a acceptable price,but you dont get realy high quality for it. That is behind a huge step in price.
Back in the day you could save a huge amount of money by clever DIYing,not anymore. That market is entirely adjusted to favour buisness
but not you.
I have always assumed [perhaps incorrectly] that the terms: sensitivity and efficiency are synonymous.
And, anecdotally at least, I have yet to encounter an inefficient yet sensitive speaker or, conversely, an efficient yet insensitive speaker.
I do know that my Sugden a21 class a amplifier - with it's measly 10 watt output - could easily drive my relatively efficient [90db] Ditton 66's to high volume levels
and with oodles of stunning bass, in my average sized listening room.
Yet with relatively inefficient speakers of say 86db or less, the Sugden would struggle to deliver power to adequate levels at ANY audio frequency!
Also, because an inefficient speaker requires more power, the amplifier has to be turned up. The very act of which increases distortion!
You don't get 'owt for nowt' in the Hi-Fi world, as you have already intimated.
So, for me at least, inefficient speakers are to be avoided.
Your thoughts, and those of your contributers, have been very interesting.
Cheers.
I didn't know the difference between the two terms before I researched the video. I had always simply used "efficiency" to describe either the dB/1 W or dB/2.83 V metrics. I've use sensitivity for amplifiers: What's the input voltage (rms) required to drive the output to full power, but I've always seen sensitivity expressed in terms of an input voltage. If we stick to the efficiency calculated with Hoffman's Law, then efficiency is a percentage, essentially a power per power ratio, but it's basically a unit conversion to express that ratio in dB per watt. I guess the only case in which a relatively sensitive speaker would be relatively inefficient is a speaker with very low impedance. Just don't make me do the math!
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Good answer. And worry not, haha. Schools out!
Great discussion. I am beginning to think that the best solution is to use triodes for 150 up into some really good sounding speakers and use class D into separate big boxes for the bass. Also the bass should be placed in the room to optimize bass at the seating position and the main speakers placed well away from the wall optimized for imaging.
Darren Meyers mentioned he was building massive bass boxes to place left and right of the listening position and good speakers in the normal eq triangle. If you have a dedicated room and a big budget, this is the route to take. No one needs big dollar floor standing speakers because it is impossible for them to produce good bass where you sit.
Hi just found your channel and subscribed… I still have my HH SCOTTS from when I bought my Marantz receiver from 1978 and they sound amazing… Are you familiar with the HH SCOTT’s?????
No, that's one I haven't tried.
Great video! Just let me add a couple of comments. Large cabinets are needed for efficient low bass, that is true for all speakers. But in the same box a high efficiency driver's bass will roll off at a higher frequency because the diaphragm and all other moving parts must be lighter. A lighter cone - all other things being equal - has a higher natural resonant frequency. About the Klipschorns: they need that huge cabinet plus the corners of the room not because of the high efficiency but because they have fully horn loaded bass.
I didn't even want to get into driver efficiency because it's so complicated, and there are so many catch-22's, at least with "normal" materials. And, I clearly need to read up on the Khorns and horn-loaded speakers more generally. I gather that "true" horns (with compression drivers) are more efficient and are different from "horn-loaded" drivers (with conventional cones). I get that the Khorns need big boxes to fit the horns loading the woofers because of the exponential horn that starts with an orifice big enough to cover a big woofer. But doesn't the same (Hoffman's Iron) law apply to that box, even if it has internal baffles to make a folded horn?
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi I'm not sure if true horns in general and the K'horn specifically have boxes behind the bass driver. I think not. The horn has to be long enough to accommodate the wavelength of bass notes, which is pretty damn long. Hence the requirement for the large cabinet and for the walls and floor in the corner to act as extensions of the horn formed by the cabinet. The longer the horn the lower the bass roll-off frequency.
I recently asked Snake Oil Audio if my assumption is correct that speakers with a high "Wirkungsgrad" tend to sound better by "normal" good room volume. He said that this is not a realation to good Sound.
I asked because my dear french Cabasse Sampan 311 M15 are named as such and this is my experience. Btw. they got an evil pretty bass.
So, to get the biggest box possible, do you go open baffle woofers? I know the baffle width changes the frequency that gets cancelled due to out of phase cancellation; and the baffle can also be bent back 90 degrees...but if it is open to the room, does the room actually become the box or not and why?
I've been wondering about open baffle speakers. I don't know.
My rp-280f are giving a very deep base. I'm running then with a unison research simply italy single ended tube amp.
Very interesting thank you Thierry (From France)
You're very welcome
With efficient speakers, say 92-94 db,.cd players, tape decks etc. can be plugged right into a power amp, without a preamp & have enough volume. With your usual output stage and your usual input stages I'd say 89db efficiency in smaller rooms and 92-94 db in larger rooms will let you bypass the preamp and your speakers should be just the right loudness on most material. Even the brst preamps, just like anything else extra in the signal path, degrades the sound quality a bit...If you have both a great preamp and great cables, it won't degrade it by quite as much. For some that's one good reason and use for very efficient speakers.
WoW. I think that I'm about ready to take the test for my Master's Degree. This is excellent and great food for thought. To narrow it down, I think that financial ability is the number one thing in the consideration. Next, what do you listen to and how do you want to hear it. My problem is that I listen to Classic Rock, Jazz, Classical Music and even "space music". Acoustic guitar, piano, etc. No metal, rap or hip-hop. Sometimes loud but often at middle or lower levels. Do you really want to spend Large money for quality tube equipment, or is an integrated amp, not tube OK? Almost no speaker evaluations, on line play or discuss Classical Music reproduction. I have checked out many many hours of reviews, both talk and actually playing music on line. You can get an idea about speakers this way, with a lot of listening and comparison. Of course, actually listening in person is the ultimate final solution. My Denon 95 watt per channel AV amp is being used just for 2 channel listening now, and my 18 year old Polk TSi-500 tower speakers, with or without one or both of my Polk 12" powered sub woofers is quite acceptable, still. Yes, I can afford to spend money. I just haven't yet found exactly what I want to replace them with. I love the folded horn design of the La Scalla's, but their low end base response just doesn't provide what I would expect from that particular design and price. I would prefer not to use a sub woofer. I am presently considering Klipsch Forte IV. The Cornwell IV is also interesting. Depending which room I decide to place them in. EVENTUALLY, you must stop racking your brain with all of the variables and make a decision.
Thanks & Best Regards
I was hoping for a new video this week 🕺 Thanks Stephen your awesome 😎
I thought I need 90db+ speaker to use with my low power 1970's Sansui receiver, but dont listen at high volume. I also really enjoy deep base. I happened into some Energy 2.1E and they delivered the sound I was craving. From what you said I guess probably wouldn't find the sound I like with a higher efficiency speaker.
My Elekit 8200r with vintage KT66 tubes hooked up to my JBL L55 speakers is amazing. I was shocked. I am guessing the JBL's are pretty sensitive. But JBL didn't release sensitivity specs back then.
This was an interesting conversation. All of your speakers appear to be vintage. Some may need servicing. I wonder what impressions you might have comparing some modern speakers like the Klipsch, Wharfdale Lintons, etc and if they might impress you? I found an unopened dealer box set of KLH Kendall 40" towers for only $600. They boast 96dB at 8 Ohms, and a frequency response of 25 Hz-23 kHz +- 3dB. Paired with Marantz 2216 to 2270, they sound very good to me. Can they really handle 250 Watts? Seems nuts. I would like to try a small REL amp with some smaller speakers too, and set them up like you described with bi-amping.
I really don’t know what point your trying to make but let me help there has to be a standard of measurements for information to be given to the buyer and speakers must be matched to room size and equipment used and a proper treated room will get you close enough
thank you
You're welcome!
Back in the day(50’s 60’s) we bought a record, took it home played it on anything that worked, we played it till it turned grey! DBs back then it was short for da beer now back then the audiophiles were listening to train sounds etc! Did I have good equipment, yea guess so denon separates and Bose speakers a stack of them! So here I am listening to you talking dbs etc ! The only thing that connected to my mind was I gather you’re talking about speakers! Still have my Bose still pumping the sound out and I still don’t know what a db has to do with playing music!
🤣🤣🤣 But on the off chance you want to know, dB stands for decibel and, with sound pressure level, is simply a measure of power on a logarithmic scale. Plus 3 dB is double the power, and 100 dB is generally recognized as the pain threshold. Say you have speakers that make 102 dB with one watt at one meter. Well, you might make your ears bleed if you performed the test with your ears! Better then to sit back and drink da beer!
what speakers have 100dB sensitivity?
cerwin vega. the D and VS series ar every sensitive, loud and dynamic
many old jbl monitors have close on 100db,also klipsh heresy,old series yamaha ns-18s-ns25s have 98db, also as i am in holland old philips full range speakers from up to 1969 they go 30hz to 18k with 98db (philips koning series alnicos) some pioneers after some jbl techs defected to pioneer vintage and very popular now pioneer hpm series hpm 30 - hpm-100 around 98db
what JBL have 100dB sensitivity, @@christopherhines2718?
This is very scientific information that becomes very subjective when you pair any given speaker with any given amp. I like older speakers. A two way is generally going to be much easier to drive than a three way and have a much simpler crossover network. And if you take, say a relatively easy to drive speaker such as Large Advents or KLH 6 speakers, they will sound markedly different when driven by an NAD 3020, a Naim Nait 3, and a Krell KRC-2 and KST 100. You will have problems when you start to introduce Wilsons's or Apogee's. After 55 years of playing with Hi-Fi gear, if you find a combination you like, you better stick with it. You change one thing and suddenly you will start to regret selling the piece you just sold on EBay. Subwoofers suck. Horn loaded speakers suck unless you have big ones and a good tube amp. Buy a speaker that has decent bass and live with it. Rectilinear Xi, Large Advents, Smaller Advents, KLH 6. And you can absolutely have satisfying bass response from a reasonably sized enclosure. Edgar Villchur and Henry Kloss proved it. The AR-1 is in the Smithsonian for a reason.
Sounds like this isn’t your first rodeo. I appreciate your sharing wisdom gained through experience.
@@jeremiahchamberlin4499 And even at 72 you can learn something. I just discovered Rectilinear XIa speakers. I have come to believe they are the "sleepers" of early 70s speakers. I am replacing a pair of not so efficient Advent 3's. These are the last speaker that Andy Kosatsos (Petite) designed just before he departed Advent and designed some great speakers for Boston Acoustics. The Advents are slightly less than 1/2 the size of the Rectilinear speakers and gives some validity to the theory that slight increases in volume can increase efficiency. The Rectilinear speakers are slightly louder for a given volume setting and they are more articulate and a bit more forward. Unless they crap out on me, I believe I may have found my forever speakers. They were Duke Ellington's favorite brand.
Its a trade off. Wide bandwidth..sensitivity. or power handling..pick only 2
That makes sense. I'm still pretty much a noob in this realm. Seems to me that even getting both wide bandwidth and sensitivity is pretty rare.
wow this is impressive. curious what musics do you most care to listen to?
I listen to mostly rock of many sorts, hip-hop/R&B, and a bit of jazz (mainly be-bop) and classical.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fiawesome.
Lets just say a speaker with a sensitivity of 100dB of 1W at 1 meter will output 120dB at 100W.
Another speaker might have 90dB at 1W at meter and at 100 W will only have 110dB.
The first will sound twice as loud and you will feel it way more.
so Horn speakers are High Sens.. so I lose Bass and must get a subwoofer to compensate and high sens. speakers will expose noisy components , so are you better off with lower sens. speakers ?
If you have an amp with enough power, then yes (all else being equal).
I build speakers, mine are definitely efficient, your right speaker company’s make it up to suit themselves
The wharfdale's bass sounded deeper/richer to me anyways. My own are Goodmans 12” full range circa 1955 . 100 db 1w . 270 litre wood cabs front ported. More than enough realistic bass from those in my room. Of course manufactures want you to buy a sub or two hahaha.
Yeah, I thought the Wharfedales sounded way richer than the Hartleys in the recording. I guess I should either sit on the floor, put them up on tall stands, or put them on short stands that tilt them up. Makes me think of when I used to listen to my dad's system while lying on the floor under the dining room table; he had big EV cabinets, with concentric drivers, so the tweeters were about a foot above the floor.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi EV cabinets ... now you are talking. "concentric drivers"? Don't you mean coaxial drivers, like in the EV FM-12C pro floor monitors?
Have you seen the way EV write the specification publications for their products that include reputable test data plots?
I'd be more inclined to have faith in EV documentation rather than manufacturers who only come up with 'Marketing' leaflets aimed at home audio listeners.
Yes, coaxial, of course.
I'm DIY building a couple of pp-6B4G monoblocks. It'll be around 6.5W max so would love to know what High Efficiency speakers are available.... please.
I mention the ones I could find in the video. The (unpowered) champ of efficiency is still the Klipschorn. You could go for the Kharma Enigma Veyron 1D; it's advertised as having 97 dB/2.83 V sensitivity. Those will cost you over $1 million, though. In all seriousness, I'm not sure what to recommend. I just bought a pair of Bozaks.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Wow! Thanks for taking time to reply. Agreed, my budget for $1mill speakers is not possible but will have a looksee at Klipschorns...
What is your budget? Are you into Multi-way or Fullrange drivers (augmented)?
Try anything by Lowther, Acousta's are a good start. Fostex FE206ev full range drivers in horn cabinets, there are plenty of kits/ plans out there if you enjoy DIY or some vintage Tannoy's. I have an Audio Innovations First Audio, 2A3 pp, so the same sort of power as your kit and all of the above work supremely with it. Snell J2's / Audionote AN-J's are another option.
I've spent some time with Tannoy Monitor Gold speakers. They're something special.
I have a beautiful set of 1972 Ohm F’s. 4/3 ohm impedance. No crossovers. Wire to speaker. Big box cabinets. It takes a minimum of 100 wpc to get them to start to sing but it has been said 200 to 300 wpc to get the heavens to come out. 301 wpc to blow them. I’ve used my Marantz 2325 125 wpc, 9090DB 125 wpc and they sound funny. Those receivers don’t have a rating to run 4 ohm speakers but, I’ve been told they can. Well? They can’t. I have them paired with my McIntosh MA6200 100wpc with a 4 ohm rating and they sound nice. Very low bass response but to me, my Pioneer SX-1010 brings the angels out of them at 100 wpc. That receiver also has a 4 ohm rating. Is it the push pull technology? These speakers are extremely inefficient and dip below 3 ohms. I want to run a Dynaco ST 70 but, I doubt the amp can power these monsters like the pioneer. The pioneer SX-1010 has to be hands down one of the best receivers I’ve owned to power inefficient speakers with ease. OHM Walsh F speakers. Talk about inefficient but glorious sound if you have the right combination. Great video on this subject. My head is on fire trying to keep up! Lol
Some amps can have trouble driving low impedance loads, and IME the issue doesn't depend on amp power. My 3 wpc tube amps made my ADS L730's sing, but my SX-780 didn't.
That's the thing with klipsch speakers of the rf - series. I actually have a rp-280f. And it's definitely not an 8ohm speaker
Low bass and higher noise too, as they are so sensitive that noise from our curcuitry wil get noticed. I've never been into tubes and needed speakers aid these anemic tube amps. WAF also killed this trend, and only very nerdy hifi ppl want to experiment, and have the space, time and money.
Speakers are influenced by your amplifier, room size, preference and your ears. Unfortunately, you may have to try several out before you find the one that works for you.
I think you said if there's true sensitivity differences it may impact the bass area. Although the rational for this would be interesting to understand better.
I didn't go into it, but there are ways to make woofers more efficient. The process is full of trade-offs. Hoffman's Law says E = kVf, where E is efficiency (%), V is box volume, f is the -3dB low frequency, and k is a constant for a given driver. For a target E, to get lower f, we have to increase V in inverse proportion; for example, if we want to decrease the low-frequency roll-off by half, say, from 80 Hz to 40 Hz, we have to double the volume of the box. We could also play a trick and add a port with a resonance around 80 Hz, so that when the 40 Hz note is played, its second harmonic will drive the port resonance at 80 Hz and make the 40 Hz note sound louder.
@@Lancaster_Hi-FiThank you for sharing the formula for Hoffman’s Law, it helps me make better sense of the video, but I understand too, why you didn’t share it IN the video.
Edit: It also helps me understand why I don’t like ported cabinets; go into the next room, and all you can hear is the port frequency bumping away.
19:08. 1970S NOOO Bands started adding more bass. Then in 80s added even more bass then today add a ton of bass that's what happened wasn't solid State NOO
Panels & subs both worlds 🌎
Songer S1 w tube amplification
I’ve heard this explanation before; it confused me then and I’m still confused. Thanks for being practical in your analysis. Considering all the transistor amps, tube amps, allegedly sensitive speakers and “hard to drive” speakers, I’ve concluded that sensitivity ratings are misleading, consistently B.S. and meaningless. Sensitivity spec’s are overrated; I have a speaker with a high and fairly consistent impedance with a low 83 db sensitivity rating, and it sounds wonderful with a 2.3 watt 2a3 triode mono amps. They also sound good with a 75 watt tube amp and a 20 watt transistor amp. Sensitivity specs are marketing B.S.
What are we saying here? It's kinda hard to follow this maybe I'm just dumb
I think he’s talking at masters degree-level audiophilia. I’m still working on my bachelor’s!
There is a vid on YT explaining the difference between diode, triode, tetrode and pentode and the evolution that gave us the pentode as best of it all.
A SEP nnf is what you want not a SET. Choose the amp first than go after the speakers.
Klipsch are shit.
Look at vintage for speakers.
Nnf = no negative feedback? That's crazy, IMHO.
@@Lancaster_Hi-FiDepends on the topology. Triodes like the 2A3 are very linear devices unlike pentodes but you need very unreactive speakers like Lowthers and top quality output transformers or the response of the amplifier can change with speaker impedance, so it's a bit touch and go. What you do get when it's right is a supreme sense of liquidity and space. Efficiency can be misleading as there are so many variables. Things either work or they don't in my experience. Good video by the way. 🙂
That's why..
th-cam.com/video/ULhMopNq2_U/w-d-xo.htmlsi=uQULNLooaQlP1AIA
After Aaron's/Erin's online trashing of Tekton, honestly, I won't watch this Erin dude again. Sorry, I highly disagree with how he handled himself with that issue completely and will not follow him what so ever.
That's not my read of the situation, but do as you like, of course.
Erin will survive. Dunno about Tekton.. That owner is a headcase if i've ever seen one, and i guess you follow Danny too. Tektons weird designs and colours are quite neat to me tho. Most of us can se negatives and positives, or smth in between, but som can't..
I'm just sitting back and waiting for the price of used Tektons to hit rock bottom. Haven't seen any locally, though.
Obfuscator. Probably doesn't know what he is talking about.
To much incoherent babble. No useful information here. Jez
I agree that there is a lot of what you term ‘babble’, but the man is honestly struggling to make sense of the very confusing topic of speaker specifications. The question is, “How do you know if a speaker is any good from reading the specifications?” Turns out it is very hard to do and depends on many factors. The video explores those factors in a relatively entertaining way. Could have been clearer, could have been shorter; could say the same about a lot of videos I’ve watched on TH-cam -but I learned something, didn’t you?