In this first episode of Questions from the tool box (QTB) we look at a long gone welder design/technology that is unlike any other welder you might find in a shop.
A couple things I left out that is of interest (thanks for those who mentioned some of the info): 1) Since they are an electric motor spinning a generator, they are far from quiet lol. From the moment they are powered up everyone knows it’s running. Even the smaller ones are really loud. 2) because you’re essentially generating your own power, you have complete control over that power production. At that time in history when they were common, that was the only practical way produce very clean DC on a higher amp output. 3) I would imagine guys that were used to how engine drive welders worked/welded could hop on one of the torpedos and it would weld very similar to what they were used to out in the field. That would be hugely beneficial for avoiding screw ups and the welders themselves likely preferred them.
The vertical Lincoln was my welder in my dad's shop, off to the side out of the way he made me a low welding table with a vice, gas torch rig and that Lincoln, (man was that thing loud, (I can still hear that wine sometime) I was 10 years old, Some kid's played with GI Joe's my free time was spent playing with fire. 🔥😉👍🏻
Being a industrial electrician all my life I repaired these for over 40 years , they're nearly bullet-proof , the ones that did fail were usually a wire broke off in the control head due to vibration , never had one with a major problem .
That’s awesome to hear, I don’t think a better expert than you could be found for them 😀. I can’t even imagine the hours that were put on them in big industrial sites. I will have to find one to weld with and shoot a video 😀
Awesome to hear. They are definitely out there but harder to get. If I can find one in good shape for a reasonable deal I might pick it up to do some experiments with. 😀
Enjoy your videos. You do an excellent job of explaining the intricacies of welding. In the early 60s I worked in a repair shipyard that used Lincoln torpedo welders. We repaired barges, tugboats, drilling rigs etc. We only did stick welding using mostly 6011s. The machines had marks scratched by different welders that were suppose to represent the “ideal” settings. Of course the ideal setting depended on the size and type of electrode and the distance to the work site. Sometimes the job might be 200 ft from the welder. Running current through several lengths of welding cables required higher settings on the machine. Sometimes it took several trips from the job site to the welder to get the settings close to what you needed. Rarely were the settings perfect.
Thanks for the kind words 😀. What you described is definitely a downside to that setup. It’s not that kind to a beginner and I bet every welder welded a bit different. Add In differing length cables, different rods, and now you’re in a pickle trying to dial things in lol.
Good video, learned a bunch. We have the one that has built my building in Manhattan, 1960 3phase fire hydrant. Still in use for making building repairs.
Good explanation of motor/generators and how versatile they are. If you have an electrical supply robust enough for their operation, and good hearing protection, they are a joy to use. I prefer my SAE 300 over my GE 400 as it has a bit better discernment between V/A ranges. I would not attempt to run either on a VFD as their motors are in excess of 30 HP.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg It's fantastic! I also have the foot pedal assembly and that allows for scratch-start TIG. With enough practice, one can make welds that rival machines that have high frequency start. But what it really shines at is stick and gouging.
Well, I just learned a buttload of stuff. I didn’t know about torpedo welders or the benefits of using one before. Very interesting machine. Thanks Greg, you really know your $hit.
I remember seeing an archaic Hobart torpedo welder in a WSDOT maintenance shop some years back. The motor was rated three-phase, 460 (not 480) volts which meant it was probably older than me!
I bet they are sitting at shops all over collecting dust. Pretty crazy way to build a welder, but for the time they made a lot of sense. The only practical ones are the upright fire hydrant ones for the most part. I might try to find one to test for the channel lol.
seen pictures of them in old books,never ran one. ran a few SA200's,nothing like that buttery smooth pure DC! Going after a Miller 'big blue' 400 pipe pro on Sunday
Hopefully you get that big blue 😀. It’s funny how 60+ year old simple generator tech can still be valid today. People even said stick welding would be replaced by now yet here we are, having guys still weld with stick, and some on 60+ year old welders lol.
Great video as they always are!! My question has to do with rod ovens, I understand that they take the moisture out of the rods, but where does it go? Does it make a puddle in the bottom? I just can't wrap my brain around that and people I've asked have no clue!! Thank you!!
Great question. So this is going to sound a bit wild, and I may be wrong. Rod ovens heat the rods and the air to 300 degrees typically. At that temperature the rods themselves will be hot enough to cause the moisture to evaporate out of the flux. Where it gets interesting is I believe the hot air can hold more moisture than room temperature air. So the hot air itself functions as a sponge and wants to grab any moisture it can. So basically any escaping moisture out of the rods is immediately absorbed into the air. The air will have some humidity I would imagine, even at 300 degrees. It’s just unable to precipitate or form dew on the rods. The reason you don’t see water in the oven is two fold. 1) the rods simply don’t have much moisture. Most 7018 rods don’t easily absorb moisture from the air, and they aren’t made with moisture in the flux. (6010 rods have a ton of moisture in the flux). 2) The hydrogen present in the rods that’s of concern is very minimal. Sure, a soaking wet rod is a no go. But trace amounts of hydrogen can cause weld failures on high strength steels. So if there isn’t a pool of water in a bunch of rods to start there can’t be a pool in the bottom of the oven. Also, like I said, the elevated temp will not allow the moisture to form dew or precipitate without a drop in temps, so a slight amount of moisture in the air is basically stuck there. Hopefully that makes sense 😀
I definitely left out the fact they are loud, thanks for bringing that up lol. For anyone who hasn’t seen one of them they are far from quiet when running. That’s awesome that you still use one 😀
They are popular for arc gouging which some businesses buy them for because gouging is hard on modern inverter machines whose replacement boards often cost more than a used motor-generator welder. Manuals are fairly easy to find. Motor-generator welders were a way to get high DC amps before modern solid state rectifiers and (when DC aircraft generators from WWII engines were very common surplus and dirt cheap) a popular homebuilt welder construction method. Since the motor end is normally three-phase they will run off a rotary phase converter of suitable size (which you can also make then enjoy three-phase tools and equipment without paying business rates or where you cannot get three-phase at the pole). Some owners convert them to gas engine drive which makes for a rather long trailer but at the right price why not? Others harvest the generator end and make PTO drive conversions for their tractors etc. Lincoln sold towed PTO driven welder heads similar to their SA series which are interesting in their own right. Look up Lincoln Tractapac.
Yeah I bet those suckers would survive arc gouging far better than a ton of alternatives. As crazy as the idea was, it definitely took a very long time for them to be outclassed, and even then I would argue they are still somewhat relevant for specific tasks. After talking with some guys I work with apparently there are still some of the upright machines running in some local forges, which is a serious testament to how reliable they are lol.
So a guy I know bought the snap on branded one for 300$. I found the identical mini box minus the snap on name for 44$ on Amazon 😅. Search P.i.t mini tool box. I actually keep some tig stuff in it now, it will primarily be used for than and for the videos lol.
Hay Greg I am new into mig welding I got a hobort 140 for Christmas got 2 or 3 2lb rolls of wire to try 2 mig and 2 fluxcor I found a row of pgn. Er 70s6 mig .023 to do sheet metal work with do you know this wire pgn. Out of Florida thanks jack
If you end up liking the flux core and use it alot, id go with the pgn e71t-11 in .030 ive been using it for a while its great, just as good if not better than the lincoln nr211 and 1/4 the price for 2, 2lb spools.
@@jackowens9440 It sure does Jack, flux core also penetrates deeper than mig. Not the best for sheet metal though, It took me alot of practice but i was able to weld 18-20 gauge sheetmetal with this wire in my titanium 125.
To learn on that machine I would do flux core first like others suggested. Flux core has a lot of advantages for learning. You don’t have to worry about a gas cylinder or regulator. It is far easier to weld out of position (think welding vertical up) than gas shielded mig. I find it much easier to weld things like car exhaust with. It does tend to have more penetration than mig so it can make strong welds even if it doesn’t look the best. The main things to be aware of with flux core are these: 1) you must run the mig gun on DCEN and not DCEP, so make sure your machine is on the correct polarity. 2) welding super thin sheet metal is tough because it’s very difficult to do spot welds with flux core. It has a tendency to over penetrate thin material and it has a bad tendency of having porosity on short tack welds. 3) don’t make multiple passes of flux core wire if the wire is -gs wire. It will produce a brittle weld. .023 mig is the best option for real thin material in my opinion. It leaves no porosity, puts down tiny welds, and doesn’t over penetrate. However like I said I would learn to weld with flux core first then go to mig.
A couple things I left out that is of interest (thanks for those who mentioned some of the info):
1) Since they are an electric motor spinning a generator, they are far from quiet lol. From the moment they are powered up everyone knows it’s running. Even the smaller ones are really loud.
2) because you’re essentially generating your own power, you have complete control over that power production. At that time in history when they were common, that was the only practical way produce very clean DC on a higher amp output.
3) I would imagine guys that were used to how engine drive welders worked/welded could hop on one of the torpedos and it would weld very similar to what they were used to out in the field. That would be hugely beneficial for avoiding screw ups and the welders themselves likely preferred them.
The vertical Lincoln was my welder in my dad's shop, off to the side out of the way he made me a low welding table with a vice, gas torch rig and that Lincoln, (man was that thing loud, (I can still hear that wine sometime) I was 10 years old, Some kid's played with GI Joe's my free time was spent playing with fire. 🔥😉👍🏻
Awesome 😀. Once you hear one run, you will never forget it lol.
Being a industrial electrician all my life I repaired these for over 40 years , they're nearly bullet-proof , the ones that did fail were usually a wire broke off in the control head due to vibration , never had one with a major problem .
That’s awesome to hear, I don’t think a better expert than you could be found for them 😀. I can’t even imagine the hours that were put on them in big industrial sites. I will have to find one to weld with and shoot a video 😀
I have a vertical model absolutely a great welder. I run it using a rotary phase cinvertee.
Awesome to hear. They are definitely out there but harder to get. If I can find one in good shape for a reasonable deal I might pick it up to do some experiments with. 😀
The *Silo!*
Enjoy your videos. You do an excellent job of explaining the intricacies of welding. In the early 60s I worked in a repair shipyard that used Lincoln torpedo welders. We repaired barges, tugboats, drilling rigs etc. We only did stick welding using mostly 6011s. The machines had marks scratched by different welders that were suppose to represent the “ideal” settings. Of course the ideal setting depended on the size and type of electrode and the distance to the work site. Sometimes the job might be 200 ft from the welder. Running current through several lengths of welding cables required higher settings on the machine. Sometimes it took several trips from the job site to the welder to get the settings close to what you needed. Rarely were the settings perfect.
Thanks for the kind words 😀. What you described is definitely a downside to that setup. It’s not that kind to a beginner and I bet every welder welded a bit different. Add In differing length cables, different rods, and now you’re in a pickle trying to dial things in lol.
"Distinguished welders" That's more like it! Lol. Awesome video series idea.
Good video, learned a bunch. We have the one that has built my building in Manhattan, 1960 3phase fire hydrant. Still in use for making building repairs.
Pretty amazing how long they have lasted. That’s awesome yours is still in use 😀
Good explanation of motor/generators and how versatile they are. If you have an electrical supply robust enough for their operation, and good hearing protection, they are a joy to use. I prefer my SAE 300 over my GE 400 as it has a bit better discernment between V/A ranges. I would not attempt to run either on a VFD as their motors are in excess of 30 HP.
I wish I would have remembered to mention the noise, they definitely let everyone around know they are running lol.
Happy to see this video. Proud owner of a Lincoln vertical myself!
How do you like it? I have been looking for one but all I can find are the big horizontal units that I don’t have enough power to run lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg It's fantastic! I also have the foot pedal assembly and that allows for scratch-start TIG. With enough practice, one can make welds that rival machines that have high frequency start. But what it really shines at is stick and gouging.
I had the opportunity to use one of those several years ago. Very smooth running machine! Nothing else like it!
Definitely a different animal from modern welders. I might have to find a smaller one to fix up 😀
Wow that one you posted the thumbnail pic from is EXACTLY what I been welding on this whole Time lol
Haha imagine that.
We called them "Schweißumformer" back in the day. Never used one, wish I could.
Well, I just learned a buttload of stuff. I didn’t know about torpedo welders or the benefits of using one before. Very interesting machine. Thanks Greg, you really know your $hit.
I remember seeing an archaic Hobart torpedo welder in a WSDOT maintenance shop some years back. The motor was rated three-phase, 460 (not 480) volts which meant it was probably older than me!
I bet they are sitting at shops all over collecting dust. Pretty crazy way to build a welder, but for the time they made a lot of sense. The only practical ones are the upright fire hydrant ones for the most part. I might try to find one to test for the channel lol.
seen pictures of them in old books,never ran one. ran a few SA200's,nothing like that buttery smooth pure DC! Going after a Miller 'big blue' 400 pipe pro on Sunday
Hopefully you get that big blue 😀. It’s funny how 60+ year old simple generator tech can still be valid today. People even said stick welding would be replaced by now yet here we are, having guys still weld with stick, and some on 60+ year old welders lol.
Always good information
I definitely learned something new today. Thanks Greg!
No problem 😀.
I'm an old school antique.
Still working. Maybe a collectible.
Great video as they always are!! My question has to do with rod ovens, I understand that they take the moisture out of the rods, but where does it go? Does it make a puddle in the bottom? I just can't wrap my brain around that and people I've asked have no clue!! Thank you!!
Great question. So this is going to sound a bit wild, and I may be wrong. Rod ovens heat the rods and the air to 300 degrees typically. At that temperature the rods themselves will be hot enough to cause the moisture to evaporate out of the flux. Where it gets interesting is I believe the hot air can hold more moisture than room temperature air. So the hot air itself functions as a sponge and wants to grab any moisture it can. So basically any escaping moisture out of the rods is immediately absorbed into the air. The air will have some humidity I would imagine, even at 300 degrees. It’s just unable to precipitate or form dew on the rods. The reason you don’t see water in the oven is two fold. 1) the rods simply don’t have much moisture. Most 7018 rods don’t easily absorb moisture from the air, and they aren’t made with moisture in the flux. (6010 rods have a ton of moisture in the flux). 2) The hydrogen present in the rods that’s of concern is very minimal. Sure, a soaking wet rod is a no go. But trace amounts of hydrogen can cause weld failures on high strength steels. So if there isn’t a pool of water in a bunch of rods to start there can’t be a pool in the bottom of the oven. Also, like I said, the elevated temp will not allow the moisture to form dew or precipitate without a drop in temps, so a slight amount of moisture in the air is basically stuck there. Hopefully that makes sense 😀
i have an old larsen torpedo welder i use for 6010 and 7018 sounds like a jet engine
I definitely left out the fact they are loud, thanks for bringing that up lol. For anyone who hasn’t seen one of them they are far from quiet when running. That’s awesome that you still use one 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg i like to use the older welders because they they dont burn out in less than a year if you use it hard
They are popular for arc gouging which some businesses buy them for because gouging is hard on modern inverter machines whose replacement boards often cost more than a used motor-generator welder. Manuals are fairly easy to find. Motor-generator welders were a way to get high DC amps before modern solid state rectifiers and (when DC aircraft generators from WWII engines were very common surplus and dirt cheap) a popular homebuilt welder construction method. Since the motor end is normally three-phase they will run off a rotary phase converter of suitable size (which you can also make then enjoy three-phase tools and equipment without paying business rates or where you cannot get three-phase at the pole). Some owners convert them to gas engine drive which makes for a rather long trailer but at the right price why not? Others harvest the generator end and make PTO drive conversions for their tractors etc. Lincoln sold towed PTO driven welder heads similar to their SA series which are interesting in their own right. Look up Lincoln Tractapac.
Yeah I bet those suckers would survive arc gouging far better than a ton of alternatives. As crazy as the idea was, it definitely took a very long time for them to be outclassed, and even then I would argue they are still somewhat relevant for specific tasks. After talking with some guys I work with apparently there are still some of the upright machines running in some local forges, which is a serious testament to how reliable they are lol.
They were used for Arc Air Gouging
Yep, and they would have survived far longer doing that than many of the welders that existed at the time lol.
Ah, the history of welding. I believe Hobart made the first torpedo welder.
Good video. where did you get that mini tool box?
So a guy I know bought the snap on branded one for 300$. I found the identical mini box minus the snap on name for 44$ on Amazon 😅. Search P.i.t mini tool box. I actually keep some tig stuff in it now, it will primarily be used for than and for the videos lol.
@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks. Id do the same with my tig stuff, and some of my lathe tooling as well
That tool box is adorable!
LMFAO
Snap on will be happy to sell you one for 300+$ lol. Amazon to the rescue for the same one for under 50$ lol.
Hay Greg I am new into mig welding I got a hobort 140 for Christmas got 2 or 3 2lb rolls of wire to try 2 mig and 2 fluxcor I found a row of pgn. Er 70s6 mig .023 to do sheet metal work with do you know this wire pgn. Out of Florida thanks jack
If you end up liking the flux core and use it alot, id go with the pgn e71t-11 in .030 ive been using it for a while its great, just as good if not better than the lincoln nr211 and 1/4 the price for 2, 2lb spools.
Start off running that flux core and you’ll love it.
@@Initial_Gopnik thanks man for reply on wire been told flux cor good out side. Jack
@@jackowens9440 It sure does Jack, flux core also penetrates deeper than mig. Not the best for sheet metal though, It took me alot of practice but i was able to weld 18-20 gauge sheetmetal with this wire in my titanium 125.
To learn on that machine I would do flux core first like others suggested. Flux core has a lot of advantages for learning. You don’t have to worry about a gas cylinder or regulator. It is far easier to weld out of position (think welding vertical up) than gas shielded mig. I find it much easier to weld things like car exhaust with. It does tend to have more penetration than mig so it can make strong welds even if it doesn’t look the best.
The main things to be aware of with flux core are these: 1) you must run the mig gun on DCEN and not DCEP, so make sure your machine is on the correct polarity. 2) welding super thin sheet metal is tough because it’s very difficult to do spot welds with flux core. It has a tendency to over penetrate thin material and it has a bad tendency of having porosity on short tack welds. 3) don’t make multiple passes of flux core wire if the wire is -gs wire. It will produce a brittle weld.
.023 mig is the best option for real thin material in my opinion. It leaves no porosity, puts down tiny welds, and doesn’t over penetrate. However like I said I would learn to weld with flux core first then go to mig.
Silo Welders!