Neal asks: Is beauty an independent force in nature, or is it merely a projection of human values?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ธ.ค. 2024
- Neal initiated a discussion on the intersection of evolutionary principles and human social phenomena, particularly in relation to organizations and art. He critiqued the dominant scientific perspective that views beauty as a byproduct of natural selection, proposing instead that beauty and design principles are independent evolutionary forces. Neal introduced a dual force model that includes a push away from vulnerability and a pull towards an instinct for quality and beauty, referencing eight principles of design to illustrate these concepts.
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Oh, this is wonderful. 🌟Thank you both so much! 😊
Loved every minute of this. What a gift this conversation is especially at this time of the year.
Interesting how Neal is coming back to his question about music. I think I heard McGilchrist saying that all art forms re-present reality but music. Music presents realiity. I don't exactly know what I wanted to say with this because my thinking kind of stops there. It was an awesome conversation. And how Karen lifted up the image of the seed is so poignant. Thank you, Karen and Neal.
What a way to end the year
I appreciated hearing this discussion and the connections made very much, thank you both. A few things I was thinking about as I listened; the same forces that tell a culture what to think about a topic also tell us what is “good” in art, and possibly more significantly in terms of which art we end up seeing, what is worth investing in. Andy Warhol embraced the “sell out” concept, maybe legitimizing art as business more than anyone.
No one found Duchamp’s urinal beautiful, or a myriad of other artistic prize winners since then, including Tracy Emin’s My Bed (an actual unmade bed strewn with empty liquor bottles, used condoms and other paraphernalia), or Piero Manzoni’s cans of excrement (his own). So much twentieth century art and beyond points to the artist rather than beyond, unlike Hieronymus Bosch’s work, which was disturbing but executed with incredible talent and skill, not celebrating the darkness but directing us beyond ourselves with a warning.
It is interesting to think of Industrialization and how this impacted art making, both from the perspective of painters that rebelled against it, like the Hudson River School, and those that sought to categorize design and craftsmanship with elements and principles. The influence of increased trade and exposure to the art of other cultures, like the Japanese wood block prints, created opportunities to experiment with novelty as you so aptly described, Karen. And then there is relationship, those artists hanging out together in cafes in Paris, or those that made their way to New York, and kept company together when NYC was becoming the American art center.
I am thinking also about the “knowing”. I have not read Esther Meeks but am very interested after hearing you refer to this concept. I wonder how we determine whether the knowledge is good when we open ourselves to it. I am thinking about your beautifully stated reference to Eve, in contrast to the idea of always learning, something I whole heartedly embrace, and of which you, Karen,are my superstar role model.
Thanks for bringing this up Neal, and I will end my rambling with gratitude for the passage in your journal, Karen. Love the concept that God is always calling to his creation, throuh the dark and the cold, “Every obstacle becomes a gift”. Amen!
This was really wonderful! Thank you 🙏
Thanks Mills
@ 26:13 My best guess... because an omnipotent God found it to be the most interesting thing he could do: To create a stress test for himself (to experience rather than know by simulation) where his righteous legal perfection is juxtaposed against his love and mercy - at his expense (Christ ) {God's voluntary vulnerability} and ours (temporal and eternal) aka His glory.
The biblical use of the word "glory": The glory of an old man is his white hair, the glory of a young man is his strength. Conclusion: It isn't about our misunderstanding of glory (grandiosity) but rather to reveal what *is*.
I like this
I am a staunch nealist
Don’t teaze me bro
@@Neal_Daedalusnot an anti Neal Dalus
This is about Symmetry - starts in Geometry of Crystals, Plants Animals - Gene Expresion leading to symmetric structures and function. Accelrated fast recognition for instant Fertility....
The issue is that all scientific pursuit attempting to connect symmetry to health in organisms (and humans) has failed to establish that connection. The greatest art is almost never symmetrical, though architecture is, interestingly. Hence I go back to all 8 principles of design.
Symmetry can sometimes be beautiful, but it is static, is it not?
@ yes! Music I think is more emblematic of the patterns of reality. Or a Musical, which fuses all forms of art. Or Opera before musicals.
Art of the Neal
All Glory to God my friend
1:07:09 stop preaching universalism, Neal.